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denime
08-16-2010, 05:23 AM
Mornin'


No TFC News for now,if you find some please post it here.




SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshinegirl/)

Oldtimer
08-16-2010, 08:39 AM
MLS is focused on adding a 20th team, in New York, but its expansion ambitions extend beyond that and could make it the first top-flight soccer league worldwide to add a 21st team. MLS Commissioner Don Garber said last week the league won’t cap expansion at 20 teams.

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.preview&articleid=66450 (subscription needed to see full article).

I imagine that FIFA won't stand in the way, given the unique situation in North America.

flatpicker
08-16-2010, 08:52 AM
I have to say, the idea of expanding past 20 teams doesn't sit well with me.
Not in the current MLS set-up.

Sure, it would simply be like all the other pro-leagues in the USA and Canada.
But I'd much prefer that the league takes more of a global approach to it's structure.

If they want to expand to several more locations, then I would really like to see a two-tier MLS formed.
I know the league is not fond of relegation, but if we are only talking about two levels, then structure, and revenue sharing, could still be tightly monitored and controlled throughout.
It could include teams from USL/NASL in order to form two levels with 20 teams in each.

Pipe dream I know, but I don't think it would be completely unrealistic to build.

razor787
08-16-2010, 08:56 AM
MLS isnt ready for relegation. For it to work, each team would need a stadium that can support the amount of fans the MLS would require. Not only is that a lot of money, but there isnt the support for it.

If TFC were relegated, the first season of relegation, things would suffer, but there would still be some fans. If they dont make it out, the next season the fans would look elsewhere, and a lot wouldnt come back.

Thats with a team with solid supporters. A team like Dallas or Columbus would die completely if they get relegated.

keem-o-sabi
08-16-2010, 09:06 AM
coed ladies of the day 1 (http://coedmagazine.com/2010/08/15/miss-coed-michelle-banzer/) and 2 (http://coedmagazine.com/2010/08/14/miss-coed-brandie-moses/)

rocker
08-16-2010, 09:27 AM
If TFC were relegated, the first season of relegation, things would suffer, but there would still be some fans. If they dont make it out, the next season the fans would look elsewhere, and a lot wouldnt come back.


yeah, the prob with Torontonians is they don't support perceived "minor league" sports in the same level as "major league." If TFC got relegated, people would probably see it as a step down from the major league.
There are a few proposals (same cap/revenue in both first and second division, perhaps some interleague play) that might work in that regard, but I see it as playing with fire for a developing league looking to set down roots.



If it was ever put to a vote, I would not vote to allow the possibility of my home team being relegated.

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 09:31 AM
MLS isnt ready for relegation. For it to work, each team would need a stadium that can support the amount of fans the MLS would require. Not only is that a lot of money, but there isnt the support for it.

If TFC were relegated, the first season of relegation, things would suffer, but there would still be some fans. If they dont make it out, the next season the fans would look elsewhere, and a lot wouldnt come back.

Thats with a team with solid supporters. A team like Dallas or Columbus would die completely if they get relegated.


And TFC would have to find new owners.

In fact, most MLS teams would hve to find new owners. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe there are 40 owners out there who would love to invest their money in a non-salary cap soccer league in North America with relegation.

Redcoe15
08-16-2010, 09:42 AM
Soccer isn't popular enough in North America (i.e., the U.S. and Canada) to implement promotion/relegation. There aren't enough cities with the infastructure to handle the big time, and most major league markets would see their support die completely if relegated.

It just seems to me that people who want pro/rel implemented here do so just so the can be like other leagues in the world.

razor787
08-16-2010, 10:04 AM
exactly. For Pro/Rel to work, there needs to be a much stronger infastructure. The league would need to be sucessfull working like other leagues around the world. No Salary cap, teams buy the players, not the league, ect.

Until the league grows to a point where the training wheels come off, it wont work.

If they really want it to happen, the US Soccer Federation needs to start working on growing the USL and the CSL needs to do the same. Once those leagues have more support, and they are can support stadiums with 10, 000 capacity minimum, then a look at a pro/rel system would be an idea. I dont see the support being there for another 10-15 years.

bgnewf
08-16-2010, 10:15 AM
If you are charging an expansion fee of $40 million dollars then there is no way those owners are going to allow relegation. Period. The way the sports world works in North America is different then it is in Europe and elsewhere and that is the reality we all need to learn to accept. Purists such as ourselves wouls like promotion/relegation to happen but the bean counters will never allow it.

razor787
08-16-2010, 10:18 AM
I am sure if Garber wanted, he could figure a way to get Pro/Rel in MLS. The teams do have a lot of say, but the league does make the rules, and im sure that there would be some way Garber could make a massive rule change.

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 10:23 AM
If you are charging an expansion fee of $40 million dollars then there is no way those owners are going to allow relegation. Period. The way the sports world works in North America is different then it is in Europe and elsewhere and that is the reality we all need to learn to accept. Purists such as ourselves wouls like promotion/relegation to happen but the bean counters will never allow it.


Does it really work in Europe? It seems like every league has a few teams that are so far ahead of the pack they never fear relegation - so it's something that really only applies to some teams.

It seems like relegation and promotion doesn't work well in leagues with billionaire owners where their teams are immune to it.

JonO
08-16-2010, 10:31 AM
But promotion/relegation adds some flavour to those leagues so that there is something interesting to fight for, other than top 4. For some of the smaller clubs, just make it to the premier league is a honour. It's hard to compare to NA where everyone is just a team competing in the same league. And for the record, as much as I would love it, NA isn't ready for it yet

rocker
08-16-2010, 10:35 AM
But promotion/relegation adds some flavour to those leagues so that there is something interesting to fight for, other than top 4.

That's probably why North America leagues invented playoffs... to keep the whole season interesting.

tfcleeds
08-16-2010, 10:40 AM
I think promotion/relegation is a non-starter anyway as long as MLS remains below 20 teams. What I would like to see is a single league table.

razor787
08-16-2010, 10:44 AM
Single league table would be ideal. Even when MLS reaches 20 teams though, pro/rel is years away. It shouldnt even be discussed yet.

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 11:03 AM
But promotion/relegation adds some flavour to those leagues so that there is something interesting to fight for, other than top 4. For some of the smaller clubs, just make it to the premier league is a honour. It's hard to compare to NA where everyone is just a team competing in the same league. And for the record, as much as I would love it, NA isn't ready for it yet


Let's put it this way - if TFC finish any lower than 8th, we expect a change in management. If MLS had relegation, the team would only have to finish in the bottom two for the owners to change management.

I'd rather the team need to finish in the top eight rather than simply avoid the bottom two.

Stryker
08-16-2010, 11:03 AM
If Garber puts a team in NY proper then he dooms the Red Bulls to failure.

JonO
08-16-2010, 11:08 AM
Let's put it this way - if TFC finish any lower than 8th, we expect a change in management. If MLS had relegation, the team would only have to finish in the bottom two for the owners to change management.

I'd rather the team need to finish in the top eight rather than simply avoid the bottom two.
Can't compare a salary capped league with playoff to a non-salary capped league with relegation. But let's consider why 8th? Because that's where we set our expectations. If we were playing in a single table league with promotion/relegation our expectations should be top of league (or closing in on it) or else sack the manager for sure...

rocker
08-16-2010, 11:12 AM
Can't compare a salary capped league with playoff to a non-salary capped league with relegation. But let's consider why 8th? Because that's where we set our expectations. If we were playing in a single table league with promotion/relegation our expectations should be top of league (or closing in on it) or else sack the manager for sure...

I don't think if an EPL teams finishes 9th-10th it necessarily sacks its manager.

Actually, for many EPL teams that aren't the big clubs, finishing 9th-10th is a successful season because they realize they can't be Man U or Chelsea.

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 11:16 AM
Can't compare a salary capped league with playoff to a non-salary capped league with relegation. But let's consider why 8th? Because that's where we set our expectations. If we were playing in a single table league with promotion/relegation our expectations should be top of league (or closing in on it) or else sack the manager for sure...


Should be, sure. Our expectations should be to win championships.

I guess I'm just a little surprised in a city that can't get any of its teams in any sports into the playoffs we're talking about making an even-lower-down-the-standings position the cut-off for success. Okay, we're not making it the cut-off for success, but I can too easily see the press conference where our management "guarantees" the team won't be relegated.

razor787
08-16-2010, 11:17 AM
I don't think if an EPL teams finishes 9th-10th it necessarily sacks its manager.

Actually, for many EPL teams that aren't the big clubs, finishing 9th-10th is a successful season because they realize they can't be Man U or Chelsea.

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

what i believe he was saying, is that in our situation, coming in 8th means we miss the MLS playoffs. Mo didnt do his job, and he gets fired. In a Pro/Rel system, if we come in 8th, we avoided relegation, and did decently, so Mo gets possibly gets a contract extension.

mr k
08-16-2010, 11:27 AM
I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

That's because not being relegated in the EPL means being able to generate larger revenues while most teams will need to sell off players if relegated unless owner is willing take losses and bet on coming back to the top tier in the next yr.

In many respects, for me, the relegation battles and Championship league playoffs are some of the most exciting action to watch. The emotions being displayed by the supporters and the players are the rawest type in any sport I have seen because it is a matter of black & white, life & death - there is very little grey.

While in North American, it is a pussified socialist system that rewards failure. The rest of the world probably thinks its funny that a team celebrates finishing last in North America because they get a juicy draft pick.

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 11:30 AM
what i believe he was saying, is that in our situation, coming in 8th means we miss the MLS playoffs. Mo didnt do his job, and he gets fired. In a Pro/Rel system, if we come in 8th, we avoided relegation, and did decently, so Mo gets possibly gets a contract extension.

Yeah, that's it. Well, if we finish 9th, really. Then we miss the playoffs and we expect management changes. But in a relegation system 9th would be considered successful and yeah, these guys would probably extend his contract.

And like Rocker says, it's hard to imagine NFL fans being happy if their team finishes 17th.

Darlofletch
08-16-2010, 11:41 AM
I don't think if an EPL teams finishes 9th-10th it necessarily sacks its manager.

Actually, for many EPL teams that aren't the big clubs, finishing 9th-10th is a successful season because they realize they can't be Man U or Chelsea.

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

really? you don't see why a supporter would be happy to be playing in the premiership rather than the championship the following season? or in league two rather than the blue square fucking premier league?

Obviously later you reflect on the season and you recognise it wasn't a good one, and that things need to be improved, but if you're in a relegation battle, and you win it, then that's something to celebrate.

Nobody in MLS celebrates because there's absolutely no difference between finishing dead last and 4th last, aside from a worse draft pick.

JonO
08-16-2010, 11:48 AM
Yeah, that's it. Well, if we finish 9th, really. Then we miss the playoffs and we expect management changes. But in a relegation system 9th would be considered successful and yeah, these guys would probably extend his contract.

And like Rocker says, it's hard to imagine NFL fans being happy if their team finishes 17th.
I'll try one more time and then we'll agree to disagree ;) Finishing 4th last, in the EPL for example, may be quite a feat given the funds/players available to a team. In MLS, teams have the same funds and ALL teams should be able to compete with each other. That is the goal of the parity model. So, finishing 4th or 5th last for a team that was recently promoted is a big deal. The same finish in MLS means nothing...

rocker
08-16-2010, 11:52 AM
really? you don't see why a supporter would be happy to be playing in the premiership rather than the championship the following season? or in league two rather than the blue square fucking premier league?


They were already in the premiership. They finished 17th. It's absurd to celebrate that. Absurd.

I thought the whole point of promotion and relegation was to strive to be the best? But you're celebrating being one of the worst in the league after already being in the league.

Nobody should celebrate being one of the worst in the league.

Funny how this promotion and relegation thing actually celebrates being shitty.

"WE'RE NOT THE WORST!!!!! LET'S DRINK TO THAT!!!"

tfcleeds
08-16-2010, 11:54 AM
^I can guarantee you Blackpool fans will be over the moon if they finish in 17th this year.

rocker
08-16-2010, 11:57 AM
^I can guarantee you Blackpool fans will be over the moon if they finish in 17th this year.

I'm sure they will. Isn't it funny how promotion and relegation makes people crazy in the celebration of mediocrity?? ;)

Mikey
08-16-2010, 12:02 PM
LOL...Can't see ML$E giving up the hope of charging moola for playoff games in exchange for potentially trying to justify a 15% season ticket price hike in the face of relegation....hahaha.

tfcleeds
08-16-2010, 12:03 PM
^Sure, but it's better than fan apathy, which is what you get in North American sports when its obvious your team won't be in the playoffs halfway through the season. On the surface, it might appear foolish to celebrate finishing in 17th, but its a heck of a lot better than spending the next season in the abyss.

edit - response to rocker.

Dave67
08-16-2010, 12:08 PM
Survival is celebrated because it is so very tough to move back up. It took Leeds, 3 years?, to move up to the Championship from Div 1. God knows how many years it will take them to move back to the Premiership.

Celebration is a great relief of stress that your club will not have to attempt to get promoted again. I'm pretty sure they celebrate the fact that they get to see the likes of the Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool etc next year instead of Reading, Bristol City and Swansea too.

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 12:09 PM
LOL...Can't see ML$E giving up the hope of charging moola for playoff games in exchange for potentially trying to justify a 15% season ticket price hike in the face of relegation....hahaha.


I think MLSE would LOVE a promotion/relegation system - if all they have to do is stay out of the bottom two spots, that would be ideal for the accountants that run the team.

Now, I'm just wondering, when people say, "North American sports," do they feel that all the sports leagues and their fans are the same? That baseball fans and NBA fans and NFL fans look at things the same way?

tfcleeds
08-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Smaller clubs have to celebrate the smaller victories - like living to fight another day in the Premiership, Championship, or whatever. Or just being in the same division as the likes of Liverpool and Man U and being able to host those clubs at their ground. As someone who has experienced their club being relegated (twice) I can't tell you what a relief it is to be back in the Championship, facing bigger clubs, being featured on TV more often, and being one step closer to the ultimate goal of being back in the Prem.

And yes, being back in the Prem is the ultimate goal. Because short of becoming a "have" club overnight like Man City or Chelsea, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact Leeds will never win it.

J .
08-16-2010, 12:43 PM
Single table, 20 teams. Or East v West 15 in Each. Just play within your conference and switch in playoffs is how they could go.

Oldtimer
08-16-2010, 12:59 PM
Single table, 20 teams. Or East v West 15 in Each. Just play within your conference and switch in playoffs is how they could go.

Exactly. Expansion is the real reason MLS is keeping conferences. You can't manage a single table with more than around 16-18 teams or it gets to be too many games.

Yohan
08-16-2010, 01:04 PM
interesting article on giving players a raise to keep talent in MLS
http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/08/16/2072944/canales-corner-bless-the-league-thats-got-its-own

San Jose in negotiation for DP
http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/08/16/2072811/san-jose-earthquakes-in-negotiations-with-possible

Nuno Gomes? Geovanni?

Geovanni is only 30, plays AM but also wing or striker, a free kick specialist... and free agent

Beach_Red
08-16-2010, 01:28 PM
Exactly. Expansion is the real reason MLS is keeping conferences. You can't manage a single table with more than around 16-18 teams or it gets to be too many games.


It's interesting that now on its website the NFL will show standings as a singe table or by conference or with all the divisions seperately.

The NFL also plays an unbalanced schedule and depending on what place a team fnishes that determines which teams they'll play the next year - except for the division teams they play every year. So it's sort of like a relegation system.

If MLS ever gets up to 30 teams it may very well go to two 15 team conferences and an unbalanced schedule. We may only see KC and Dallas and a few other teams once every couple of years in Toronto. As long as not too many teams qualify for the playoffs, it could be all right.

Oldtimer
08-16-2010, 01:32 PM
If MLS ever gets up to 30 teams it may very well go to two 15 team conferences and an unbalanced schedule. We may only see KC and Dallas and a few other teams once every couple of years in Toronto. As long as TFC qualifies for the playoffs, it could be all right.

FYP :D

reggie
08-16-2010, 03:02 PM
according to MLSR(sori guys)SJ sign brazlian Geovanni has a dp.
not a bad signing..attacking mid with a great shot...

mr k
08-16-2010, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE][I'm sure they will. Isn't it funny how promotion and relegation makes people crazy in the celebration of mediocrity?? /QUOTE]

You're out to lunch on this one, finishing 17th and staying in the Premier is night & day compared to relegation. And 17th is good for now considering if they finished mid table, they would over Mars. This isn't North American where by happenstance you can go out of the playoffs to winning it because of a bunch of rules about revenue sharing, salary caps, weaker schedule and top tier draft picks.

EPL is more like the real business world like leagues like the NHL. NFL & NBA are in some sort of alternate socialist universe where failure doesn't really matter as long as people are still in the seats or watching on TV.

Redcoe15
08-17-2010, 02:09 AM
If there was going to be promotion/relegation in U.S soccer, they would have implemented it at the beginning of MLS. All the clubs in Europe and elsewhere are privately run and independant from any professional league. They're not franchised out like they do in MLS or the other North American sports leagues.

Try and convince the equal partners of MLS if they like the idea of going down to the minors after they shelled out millions in their own money, plus public funding for their stadiums, and watch how they'd react to it.

This. Will. Not. Happen!