Aug 7 Gardiner Closed...

[Wagner]

Plan your Game Day accordingly.

http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/road_info/index.htm

[lips]

I'll come in on Lakeshore today

Thanks Wagner

[celt-nick]

Thanks, i wouldn't have known - Cheers!

[Pookie]

^ so if I get that correctly, westbound will be closed at the Jameson exit?

[Number Nine]

Thanks, I would've found out the hard way.

[Raging Reggie]

^ so if I get that correctly, westbound will be closed at the Jameson exit?

its closed i believe till october

[Wagner]

Bumpity Bump.

[mlsintoronto]

Just arrived at BMO. A full hour from carlaw. Avoid at all costs!! Also parking is bad today is a bitch.

[Kevvv]

Just arrived at BMO. A full hour from carlaw. Avoid at all costs!! Also parking is bad today is a bitch.


What's going on there, besides TFC?

[Brooker]

bah... train it is.

thank you!

[Kevvv]

its cclosed i believe till october

It will be before October...but 2011.


I shit thee not.



http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/lake_shore_bridges/index.htm

[menefreghista]

What's going on there, besides TFC?

The Toronto Nationals play at 7pm, so I assume the Lamport lot is closed. :(

[mlsintoronto]

What's going on there, besides TFC?

beer fest, CNE preparations

[London]

yesterday was the complete opposite of sex.

realy easy going in, and almost impossible to get out!!!

[Pookie]

And yet people love the idea of a downtown stadium...

[Brooker]

And yet people love the idea of a downtown stadium...

it beats in the middle of buttfuck nowhere. :D

[Pookie]

it beats in the middle of buttfuck nowhere. :D

http://www.allmotivated.com/pictures/Demotivational-pictures-skeptical_Hippo.jpg

[Brooker]

LMAO

[phonzo]

actually taking the TTC streetcar from Union (509) was an absolute breeze

[Wagner]

And yet people love the idea of a downtown stadium...

If we played north of the city...in a field...
and the highway was closed..we'd be sunk.

But at BMO...there is still Lakeshore, TTC, GoTrain, queensway, Richmond, etc....if you want to get creative.

[maninb]

I went from the Beaches to the stadium in under 20 minutes....Dundas was a breeze...

[Pookie]

If we played north of the city...in a field...
and the highway was closed..we'd be sunk.

But at BMO...there is still Lakeshore, TTC, GoTrain, queensway, Richmond, etc....if you want to get creative.

Assuming of course there was only one highway/road leading to the stadium and that there were no future plans for TTC expansion out to the 905 area over the next 20 years.

Even if there was only one (dirt) road leading to this stadium in the middle of buttfuck, nowhere, I think you are overstating the improbable. Ottawa Senator fans seem to be able to drive out to Kanata for each and every 41 home dates they have through their winter weather. I'm sure 416ers could manage to get a car safely to a game in the middle of August.

I'd counter that at BMO there are always closures of one form or another. Be it to the roads leading in or to the parking grounds itself. Most of the major headaches are known and will happen year in and year out (scheduled highway maintenance, the Indy, the Ex, etc).

[Azerban]

oh boo hoo it's hard for the 905ers to get to a game better move the stadium to york university

[Pookie]

^ that's nice... feel the <3

[Carts]

I got to BMO in record time yesterday...

Yonge Subway, 509 Streetcar right into CNE...

No slowdowns, no delays, nothing...

Fast & easy...

Carts...

[Azerban]

^ that's nice... feel the <3

i'm a 905er, probably further than you, and we have the best stadium location of any team in the league

can't abide anyone saying we should play in buttfucknowhere

[reggie]

i blame julian for the traffic and the loss yesterday..

[Pookie]

i'm a 905er, probably further than you, and we have the best stadium location of any team in the league

can't abide anyone saying we should play in buttfucknowhere

So, your argument is based on what?

where the season ticket based located?

with businesses exiting the downtown core, where the population and season ticket base will be in 20 years?

Further, the novelty of the stadium and TFC are clearly wearing off. Weekday games are sparsely attended and we are not sold out. With this "convenient" location, why is that?

BMO offers very little economic upside to the area given the few restaurants in the area (sorry Shoeless). A hotel is planned but none currently exist close by. Is this best place for it to be from an economic spin off perspective?

Or is that you just find it convenient to get there right now?

[Brooker]

Ottawa Senator fans seem to be able to drive out to Kanata for each and every 41 home dates they have through their winter weather.
when I see their games on tv I don't see many people. :D

[Wagner]

Assuming of course there was only one highway/road leading to the stadium and that there were no future plans for TTC expansion out to the 905 area over the next 20 years.

Even if there was only one (dirt) road leading to this stadium in the middle of buttfuck, nowhere, I think you are overstating the improbable. Ottawa Senator fans seem to be able to drive out to Kanata for each and every 41 home dates they have through their winter weather. I'm sure 416ers could manage to get a car safely to a game in the middle of August.

I'd counter that at BMO there are always closures of one form or another. Be it to the roads leading in or to the parking grounds itself. Most of the major headaches are known and will happen year in and year out (scheduled highway maintenance, the Indy, the Ex, etc).

Sens crowds are down...
partly because it's a pain in the ass to get to Kanata.

TFC success - partly because young (20-40 yr old) professionals don't need a car and drive out of the city to catch a game.

If TFC had a new stadium up in on the 400...say the 400 is down...there isn't a lot of options to get up there.

[Pookie]

when I see their games on tv I don't see many people. :D

Sort of like our mid-week games? Or when it is about 10 degrees? Or when there is rain in the forecast? Or 15 mins before kick off on weekends? ;)

As far as the 400, yeah although depending on the east-west nature of the location you could have 27, the 427 or 11 and the 404 as alternates. Just like my alternate yesterday was Black Creek Drive/Parkside.

That said, I'm not saying that Newmarket is your alternate site. If you look at TTC expansion plans, the 905 is covered quite well and there are quite a few places you could look at down the road.

[menefreghista]

The stadium location is fine. The only way it could be improved is if it had a subway stop right by the stadium.

Putting a stadium in the 905 would be a failure. The reason why BMO Field works is that its centrally located for people who live east, west and north of the city. You put the stadium in the 905 and you run the risk of alienating a large amounts of your fan base who aren't willing to make the commute.

[rocker]

BMO is ideally located because it provides legitimate multiple options for fans looking to come to the game. If you locate it in 905, the car will be the predominant mode of travel to the stadium. Right now, however, you have a good mix of people walking from King west/harbourfront, arriving on the Go Train from east/west, taking streetcar after a subway right to union, and driving.

If you start removing a number of those options, you actually make it more difficult for more people. So yeah, a stadium in 905 might make it easier for drivers than getting down to BMO, but then suddenly you make it more difficult for those who would normally walk or take public transit.

I didn't even know there was any traffic problems, since I comfortably road the Go Train to the game :)

[Pinkie]

so i don't have my license, don't have enough money for a car..so if this stadium wasn't conveniently located by public transit like it currently is, then yeah i wouldn't go to games...

[Whoop]

I love the location of BMO. I agree with most that a downtown location surely beats a "butt fuck nowhere" option. The only other viable option in reality in Toronto are 1) Downsview - which will never happen but it has TTC access and highway access and 2) by Woodbine - which is where if Toronto got a NFL team a stadium would be built.

Fortunate to live in the city, more uptown than downtown, so there are multiple options for driving into BMO. North/south traffic usually is better than west/east options.

Take a more "west end" route. Avoid main access routes like Spadina or Bathurst at all costs. You do that and you shouldn't have any problems.

I still don't understand how people can not make an 8 p.m. kickoff though. 7 p.m. starts are a little tight but 8 p.m.? Come on.

[Pookie]

I still don't understand how people can not make an 8 p.m. kickoff though. 7 p.m. starts are a little tight but 8 p.m.? Come on.

All depends on where the bulk of the season ticket base resides.

I'm not talking about the young 20ish guy renting somewhere in Toronto.

Given seat prices throughout the stadium, you are likely looking at a fairly decent number of "family men" who come into the city to work and live in the suburbs.

Students, single dudes on single incomes, just aren't paying for the dark greys and reds en masse.

8pm kickoffs are generally mid-week. If someone works downtown and commutes to Oakville (as an example), they are leaving the city around 5 and depending on traffic, get home after 6pm though it wouldn't be unusual for that to become 6:30 or 7pm.

You then grab a bite, get your friend/spouse/kid and turn around and return to the downtown core. If you are fortunate to leave home by 7pm, you might make it for an 8pm kick off.

I think most people look at 8pm kick offs with that commute in mind and also tack on another hour and a half on top of it for your return trip home. Game ends at 10pm, you might get home around 11 but are likely looking at 11:30.

Now, you've got to get up at 6 and start your day all over again. I imagine a number of those "family men" just say fuck it, I'll watch it on tv.

For the 416 based fans, I have no idea why they can't make an 8pm game. There is no excuse really.

FYI - the Toronto - York - Spadina line is going as far north as Vaughan. So, if you consider Vaughan in the middle of buttfuck, nowhere, you'll have a way to get there using the TTC in the very near future.

[Whoop]

For the 416 based fans, I have no idea why they can't make an 8pm game. There is no excuse really.

That's what I'm referring to.

Hell, when I've had to go to London for a Knights game on a Friday night. I know I have to leave the city at 4 p.m. at the latest in order to make a 7:30 p.m. start. Thing is you leave at 4 p.m. you make it with plenty of time, probably around 6:30. Yet you leave at 4:30, odds are you'll just make it.

Though one question... if you're commuting to work from Oakville to Toronto and there's a match that night, why not just stay in the city and avoid the stress of commuting back and forth?

But you make a good point in regards to ticket prices.......

[Whoop]

Question: Outside of a NFL stadium (namely due to the magnitude of it) name a suburban stadium/arena that works well.

Having gone through stadium proposals in the past, in reality, downtown stadiums/arenas work out best.

[Carts]

BMO is in a great spot...

3 transportations methods are available at the station (TTC, GO Train, Car)...

Having been to countless sports venues in North America thanks to work - I can honestly say that the venues outside the city centres do not work well - and that is even coming to the mighty NFL...

Local police (in NFL cities) and the NFL have come under fire from groups such as MADD (Mother's Against Drunk Driving) as other than charter busses, your car is almost the only option to these stadiums, and the event promotes drinking & tailgating... I've never been through a spot check leaving an NFL stadium parking lot - something I can't beleive...

If BMO were out of the city I wouldn't go to every game - also I definitely wouldn't be able to drink every game (that's $$$ out of MLSE's pocket) as I'd be driving to some, and its not even worth having one and driving...

Carts...

[Pookie]

^ I guess it depends on what you define as "works well."

Downtown stadiums are generally built to bring people into the downtown and encourage economic "revitalization." Though that in itself is a source of debate with many studies citing the conclusion that there are no unique economic benefits.

So, is BMO actually contributing to economic revitalization of the downtown?

IMO, it's ironic that the term "buttfuck, nowhere" has been used to describe any stadium outside of the downtown when this area offers virtually nothing in terms of restaurants, bars, hotels and other amenities. Again, all due respect to Shoeless, but BMO is essentially built around a concrete wasteland and offers no real economic benefit for the surrounding area.

So in that sense, it doesn't work.

You'd have to define what is a suburban stadium. A stadium in the middle of a field? What if Vaughan got the site and the subway line extension is finished? Would that still be considered suburban if it were on a transit route? What if the bulk of season ticket holders lived in the 905, would it be considered suburban to them? It may actually be closer than the current location.

All throughout the NFL are examples of stadiums that are built on the outskirts of town that draw well. The NHL has its examples, with Ottawa being the one we are familiar with. Suburban stadiums draw well, some not so well. Some downtown stadiums draw well, some not so well. Ultimately the newness of the stadium wears off and location ceases to be an important factor... unless your population shifts and it becomes inconvenient to get to.

My whole thing would be to look at what is convenient for the most number of people and look at where you can get the biggest spin off in terms of economic impact to the area.

[Darlofletch]

.[/B]



are you kidding with this? have you tried finding places to go? a 5 minute walk would get you into liberty village which has a lot of bars/restaurants, 15 minute walk gets you up to queen st, with plenty of options whether either east or west.

if you think shoeless is the only place in the area, and then it's just a wasteland, then you really can't have tried.

[Whoop]

Agreed with darlo.

If you build a suburban stadium/arena, if it's not part of an "entertainment complex" it's not going to bring as much value.

The main reason to build a suburban venue is due to cheaper land.

BMO is fine where it is.

[DichioTFC]

Not sure why BMO's location is being debated but it's location is great. Exiting and public transit (i.e. irregular GO schedule) is problematic, but the area is sublime.

But still, thanks for giving updates about the road closures. I woke up to 680 on my radio and it was their top story at the time. I'm very happy I took public transit.

[Carts]

are you kidding with this? have you tried finding places to go? a 5 minute walk would get you into liberty village which has a lot of bars/restaurants, 15 minute walk gets you up to queen st, with plenty of options whether either east or west.

if you think shoeless is the only place in the area, and then it's just a wasteland, then you really can't have tried.

Exactly...

Within 5-10 min walk is:
Shoeless... Brazen Head... Liberty Street Pub... School Cafe... Carelos Cafe... Rotisserie House... Balzacs Cafe... Magic Oven... and more...

If you want/like walk a little further, 20-mins has you at the Foggy Dew and from there King Street west is packed with places of all kinds...

Carts...

[rocker]

^ I guess it depends on what you define as "works well."

Downtown stadiums are generally built to bring people into the downtown and encourage economic "revitalization." Though that in itself is a source of debate with many studies citing the conclusion that there are no unique economic benefits.

So, is BMO actually contributing to economic revitalization of the downtown?

IMO, it's ironic that the term "buttfuck, nowhere" has been used to describe any stadium outside of the downtown when this area offers virtually nothing in terms of restaurants, bars, hotels and other amenities. Again, all due respect to Shoeless, but BMO is essentially built around a concrete wasteland and offers no real economic benefit for the surrounding area.

So in that sense, it doesn't work.

You'd have to define what is a suburban stadium. A stadium in the middle of a field? What if Vaughan got the site and the subway line extension is finished? Would that still be considered suburban if it were on a transit route? What if the bulk of season ticket holders lived in the 905, would it be considered suburban to them? It may actually be closer than the current location.

All throughout the NFL are examples of stadiums that are built on the outskirts of town that draw well. The NHL has its examples, with Ottawa being the one we are familiar with. Suburban stadiums draw well, some not so well. Some downtown stadiums draw well, some not so well. Ultimately the newness of the stadium wears off and location ceases to be an important factor... unless your population shifts and it becomes inconvenient to get to.

My whole thing would be to look at what is convenient for the most number of people and look at where you can get the biggest spin off in terms of economic impact to the area.

As you elude to, stadiums have been proven not to have economic impact on anything, whether in the suburbs or the city. So moving BMO, letsay, to downsview doesn't help economically. Moving it to Vaughan doesn't help Vaughan economically.

Anyhow, the point of the thread wasn't economics but convenience.

Define "convenience".

905 is a large area. Is taking 30 minutes to get to the stadium "convenient"? 20 minutes? 10 minutes? an hour?

I'm in 905. I can go from my condo to BMO is less than 25 minutes on the Go Train (comfortable too). That's amazing. It's hard to get anywhere of consequence in this GTA in 25 minutes. Anyone in Mississauga or Burlington can get to BMO easily, certainly better than if it was at downsview or Vaughan (the traffic on the 401 is always a bitch.. my GF used to live at Yonge-Shepp and I almost always faced a traffic jam, even on weekends... particularly summer weekends).

Anyway, TFC would know the addresses of its STHs. Only they would know what is most convenient. But if you put it in 905, then suddenly you may lose 416 STHs or make it harder on them.

[supersaint]

Football fanatic here, six dk grey season tix, giving them up next year, the drive from Newmarket is consistently a frigging nightmare. Either the DVP is packed or the Gardiner. Public transit sucks....viva, subway,subway, streetcar....no thanks. Love the game, hate the location. tv works for me next season. And what was with ALL the bloody empty seats on a beautiful Saturday in August. I am getting a bit worried about what is happening to the team as far as support goes.

[flatpicker]

Football fanatic here, six dk grey season tix, giving them up next year, the drive from Newmarket is consistently a frigging nightmare. Either the DVP is packed or the Gardiner. Public transit sucks....viva, subway,subway, streetcar....no thanks. Love the game, hate the location. tv works for me next season. And what was with ALL the bloody empty seats on a beautiful Saturday in August. I am getting a bit worried about what is happening to the team as far as support goes.

It's too bad that journey to the game is such a hassle for you.
I never like to hear of a fan that has to give up their seats for reasons like this.
Hopefully you will still make it out to a few games via the ticket trader.

Regarding empty seats:
Certainly there were many in the early stages of the game(s).
People seem to filter in during the first 15-20 mins of each game.
Perhaps some of them are in a similar situation as you are.

The key to keeping people in seats in this city is by winning.
Unless you are the Leafs, Torontonians aren't big on losers.
I hope that TFC keeps this in mind and does their best to put together successful teams.

Going deep into the Champions League, and making the playoffs should help maintain fan support.
*Fingers crossed!*

[Pookie]

In the end, we are choosing sides in this argument based on our own situations as we have no demographics of season ticket holders to support (or challenge) the view that BMO is the "best location" for this team.

I'm north of Newmarket myself. GO doesn't run. Subway is fine but I can't get there without connections. The drive is horrible but it is the best remaining option... assuming of course that half of the parking lot isn't taken up with concrete barriers.

I can't sympathize with McCartney who would stay away if the venue moved north as I haul myself down for virtually every game but his argument supports the view that fans will do what is convenient for them.

IMO the lure of the game was enough to overcome these things early on and the "convenience factor" as highlighted by McCartney's argument was something that people put up with. Now that people have had their chance to experience everything, many are opting for convenience.

The tickets are sold but getting there appears to be a hassle. How else would you explain sold seats without fans in them? Fans support the team enough to buy them but ultimately would rather not go in person.

Why? Perhaps G20? Indy? Gardiner construction? All of which point to factors of convenience.

I have absolutely no idea where the bulk of TFC's paying fans live. If it is the 416 area, they should keep the thing right there. If it is somewhere else though, we shouldn't be hung up on a location that was passed over when determining where to build the Skydome and was a second choice when it came to building this FIFA U20 Stadium.

(Remember that TFC wasn't the major driver in building this thing in the first place, TFC only came into existence in order that MLSE gained a share in the operation of the FIFA Stadium)

[ilikemusic]

Im a 905er who drives when it is convenient (like weeknight games), and takes the Go or TTC from Scarborough when I know driving will be a hassle (as it always is downtown on summer weekends; things happen there, that is what fundamentally makes it downtown).

BMO Field could hardly be in a more convenient location. The only thing that would make it better is if there were a full on subway station.

[Whoop]

Odds are the demographics are likely that you have people from all over the Golden Horseshoe. Look at the demographics of RPB.

It's still in the best spot for a TORONTO team.

As for why people aren't there? There's likely a myriad of reasons. Some people just don't care enough to go even though they have paid for their tickets.

Losing, weather, or just the fact that it's Toronto.

Ever seen the beginning of a Leafs game?

[Pookie]

Ever seen the beginning of a Leafs game?

Another downtown stadium ? ;)

The beginning of the game is one thing... to avoid it completely is another.

On more nights than not, our BMO is full of empty seats that aren't getting occupied. They might be paid for as the announced attendance would suggest but clearly they are not at risk of getting chips in their shiny red paint.

This is a team unbeaten at home and on nights when they are playing in meaningful games.

[Whoop]

The stadium looked pretty full 20 minutes in.

I also think some people have been disillusioned with the quality of football especially in a World Cup year.

The CCL matches is something different as unless it's Europe, a lot of people don't seem to care about the CCL.

[Pookie]

The CCL matches is something different as unless it's Europe, a lot of people don't seem to care about the CCL.

Yeah and it is too bad too. Last year vs PRI and this year were some of the more memorable ones of the past 2 seasons.

PRI had the streamer shower and the first time we learned that Oh Canada would have to be done on our own.

They were relative unknown opponents but it didn't take long to get a hate on for either side. For me it was the time wasting GK from the Islanders and then the Motagua keeper that went off on the young ball retriever for being a little late with a ball.

[Whoop]

TFC gets good results in the CCL and it will pick up.

Despite the size of the crowds, Voyageurs Cup and CCL matches have brought out the best atmosphere from the crowd.

[ensco]

I will try to find it, but there was a fair bit of press on this topic back when MLSE spent years examining different sites for the new hockey arena (before they bought the Raptors and the then-unfinished ACC). It was hockey not soccer, but I suspect the conclusions are still relevant.

As I recall it, the single best location demographically in terms of access for the broadest possible overall fanbase was Yonge and the 401 (they were looking at the old Maclean Hunter publishing plant, which has since been turned into a group of condo towers). But in terms of expesive seats and boxes, it had to be downtown.

Guess which group was more important to the suits?

[Whoop]

Yonge and 401 would work for me too... LOL

But good point ensco.

[Torontotonto]

I like BMO just where it is, it's a Toronto team after all, and should be in the core of the city. Exibition stadium was my favorite place to watch the Jays or Argos games, they should both be down by the lake.
There's enough sponorship and money in this city to build stadiums for all three teams, hell let's even build a hockey arena for the LEAFS as well.

Great result yesterday, Frei rules the league, and it was a great RPB celebration party outside gate 3 yesterday (finally after getting 3 points), drums were rocking, along with our PREZ and executive. Posted my comments here but this should be another thread on it's own.

Back on the subject...
Queen and Woodbine to GP on Atlantic, 20 min.
Eastern to Richmond, Home Adalide to Eastern, no problem.

Shitbulls are going down Wednesday.

Go TFC Go

:scarf::flare::drum::flare::scarf:

[supersaint]

I support TFC one hundred percent. I just wish that for those of us north of the city, there was decent go train service. Or that the Don Valley didnt take so long to get down for the matches. I will still take in a few games next season, my kids love going. I really hope that this team succeeds, and that the league succeeds. I think MLSE realizes that TFC has to be a winner to get the crowds, and yeah these seats are paid for, but it is concession sales that drives the profitability of home games. Having said that, I think we are playoff bound this year. Champions league will be exciting, and we are in a tough group.
I was worried about the way Preki had us playing earlier, REALLY boring, and certainly not a style of football that would bring us new supporters. But recently, Chad is looking lively, DeRo is well DeRo, Maicon is great to watch, and for all the detractors, I think DeGuz is the most gifted technical player on our team.

[rocker]

I support TFC one hundred percent. I just wish that for those of us north of the city, there was decent go train service. .

Where do you live?

The Yonge subway may end up being extended all the way to Richmond Hill, while the subway is being extended all the way to Vaughan. So people in the north could take the subway to union and then streetcar over.

If they ever build the Downtown Relief Subway Line, BMO would be absolutely perfect in that regard. People in the north could park at Vaughan or Richmond Hill city centres and take the subway all the way down. East and West people have Go... north west may have Go too.

[Whoop]

Public transportation in the GTA stinks.

[rocker]

Public transportation in the GTA stinks.

Generally, yes. but it depends on where you are. Go Train is good for TFC fans along the Lakeshore line.

[London]

so is this going to be closed till nov of 2011??

this might be a killer for weekday games if the crowd has to go through that every game

[Pookie]

^ it should also make for a wonderful MLS Cup game

[Wagner]

so is this going to be closed till nov of 2011??

this might be a killer for weekday games if the crowd has to go through that every game

Gardiner was back open today.
it'll be generally normal for the next games.