PDA

View Full Version : A new Canadian Soccer League



razor787
07-30-2010, 11:59 AM
With Ottawa, Victoria, and Hamilton joining NASL, and Montreal and Vancouver Joining MLS, I think that its about time to start putting thought into creating a league, somewhat like MLS, in Canada.

Im not saying in the next year or two, but creating a league takes time, and there would need to be information given to the cities about what the Canadian League will attempt too accomplish.

What would you all think if TFC, Vancouver, and Montreal pulled out of MLS in 5-6 Years time, and joined a Canadian League? Think we would be able to bring in talent similar to MLS, or do you think the league would fall on its face?

J .
07-30-2010, 12:01 PM
Face plant

MartinUtd
07-30-2010, 12:02 PM
Radically Canadian Soccer.

I like the sound of that.

rocker
07-30-2010, 12:15 PM
we'll get better soccer by staying in MLS.

there's just more money going around MLS.

plus, the Canadian league would then have to compete with MLS for players, and MLS would win.

jaxul
07-30-2010, 12:18 PM
It would be nice to have a league of our own but then it would be kind of the same as the NFL vs CFL...the Canadian league will always fall second in everything.

Beach_Red
07-30-2010, 12:38 PM
we'll get better soccer by staying in MLS.

there's just more money going around MLS.

plus, the Canadian league would then have to compete with MLS for players, and MLS would win.


Is the future of MLS so certain? It seems to be a given that MLS will continue to grow and that soccer will become one of the top four sports in the US.

In Canada soccer doesn't have to compete with college sports or the NFL and outside of Toronto it doesn't have to compete with baseball or the NBA either. Soccer could become as succesful as the CFL in Canada - solid TV ratings, good attendance and $4.5 million dollar payrolls.

It's possible that soccer in Canada will actually be held back by being too closely tied to soccer in the USA if it doesn't break through there.

Beach_Red
07-30-2010, 12:39 PM
It would be nice to have a league of our own but then it would be kind of the same as the NFL vs CFL...the Canadian league will always fall second in everything.


Do you think that would be the case if there was a Canadian and a US hockey league?

Cashcleaner
07-30-2010, 12:41 PM
This Canada we're talking about. Therefore, our constant attitude of assumed inferiority will sabotage any aspirations we might have in these regards. Sucks, but it's true. Perhaps the closest we would get is a division of MLS of our own?

Fort York Redcoat
07-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Defeatists. Well not all of you but what we got to see is the CSA, The V's somebody sponsor a final or tourney end of year for the CSL vs the PCSL to decide a Canadian champion at that level. Then we get a crossover like the first years of Lord Stanley and Lord Grey. Let it grow and hopefully you'll get semi leagues in the praries and East Coast.

I love to see the day when you have what's in London right now. Which team do you support first? A (and this is what it should be)

Canadian Soccer Football League

team or a part of the American Soccer pyramid MLS, NASL team?

Whoop
07-30-2010, 12:57 PM
Don't we have the same with Toronto FC and the various CSL/USL teams in the city?

Fort York Redcoat
07-30-2010, 01:16 PM
To an extant Whoop but MLS to CSL has proven not to be competition for each other IMO. Once you get to USL or NASL it's something of a choice.

Wait you weren't counting the Lynx were you? They went to PDL first year of TFC. I can't call that competition. Besides they played in a different city.

Shway
07-30-2010, 01:22 PM
ummmm.....when canada has their own professional hockey league first, then after we can talk about soccer, but for now .................................................. ...



MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER it is

DichioTFC
07-30-2010, 01:29 PM
A Canadian soccer league is a great idea, but it should be a partner to the MLS, not a competitor.




ummmm.....when canada has their own professional hockey league first, then after we can talk about soccer, but for now .................................................. ...



MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER it is

OHL... QMJHL... WHL...

Granted they're not professional, but they attract largescale attention

jaxul
07-30-2010, 02:01 PM
Do you think that would be the case if there was a Canadian and a US hockey league?

Hard to say...I would be inclined to say yes, but the gap would be much smaller between the two leagues. Also in order to have a league of any kind you should have at least 10 teams competing and even that is really stretching it. I am not sure Canada can support 10 NHL level teams, since we have already lost a couple.

ag futbol
07-30-2010, 02:02 PM
The thing always gets lost in these (absolutely crazy) debates is that outside of a few urban areas in Canada the appetite for a Canadian franchise is pretty small. I have my doubts some of these recently announced teams will have long lives (but i hope they do well).

It just doesn't enter some peoples minds that in terms of interest Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are on COMPLETELY different levels from everyone else.

A Canadian league would be 7 or 8 teams continually losing money with low budgets and interest levels to match. Let's stick to MLS, and avoid the visit down to crazy town.

ilikemusic
07-30-2010, 02:15 PM
ummmm.....when canada has their own professional hockey league first, then after we can talk about soccer, but for now .................................................. ...

MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER it is


OHL... QMJHL... WHL...

Granted they're not professional, but they attract largescale attention

I love when people refute their own suggestion.

Attempting to create a Canadian Soccer League would be suicide.

Like Guerro said, when we can develop our own professional Canadian Hockey League, only then would I entertain the thought of a Canadian professional anything else.

I mean, if we cant run our own league in a sport where 20,000 people, in 6 different cities will pay through the nose 41 nights a year to watch the best players in the world (who happen to be largely Canadian) compete then we have absolute no business even entertaining the thought of a professional Canadian Soccer League. If it were attempted, it would play out exactly like the present CSL. It would kill professional soccer in Canada for another 30 years.

Its annoying that people even suggest this.

Keystone FC
07-30-2010, 03:16 PM
With Ottawa, Victoria, and Hamilton joining NASL, and Montreal and Vancouver Joining MLS, I think that its about time to start putting thought into creating a league, somewhat like MLS, in Canada.

Im not saying in the next year or two, but creating a league takes time, and there would need to be information given to the cities about what the Canadian League will attempt too accomplish.

What would you all think if TFC, Vancouver, and Montreal pulled out of MLS in 5-6 Years time, and joined a Canadian League? Think we would be able to bring in talent similar to MLS, or do you think the league would fall on its face?

I KNEW this would come up.
First off I would LOVE to see a Canadian national soccer league, BUT now is not the time for it nor in 5-6 years.
Maybe 10-20 (it's beginning to sound like a prison term).

With the news of the possible addition of Hamilton, Victoria, and Ottawa to NASL within the next 3-4 years it will bring the number of pro teams in Canada to 7 (people keep forgeting Edmonton FC).
Is that enough for a soccer league? Yes, BUT not for Canada and especially not for soccer in Canada.

Plus, these clubs (minus Vancouver, TFC, and Montreal) are coming in at the Div. II level so their revenue is not at MLS standards...yet. Once ALL of these clubs with additional clubs in say; Calgary, Winnepeg, Saskatoon or Regina, a second club in Toronto, Quebec City, and Halifax have reached current MLS level of revenue, sponsorships, TV coverage, media attention, and fan support THEN Canada will have a league of it's own.

rocker
07-30-2010, 03:30 PM
Is the future of MLS so certain? It seems to be a given that MLS will continue to grow and that soccer will become one of the top four sports in the US.

In Canada soccer doesn't have to compete with college sports or the NFL and outside of Toronto it doesn't have to compete with baseball or the NBA either. Soccer could become as succesful as the CFL in Canada - solid TV ratings, good attendance and $4.5 million dollar payrolls.

It's possible that soccer in Canada will actually be held back by being too closely tied to soccer in the USA if it doesn't break through there.

Given that MLS is so conservatively run, I don't see why there'd be any doubts about its continued existence. The doubts may be about its potential to become a top league in NA or the world, but if it's survived since 1996 in tough conditions, I don't see it dying any time soon.

Regarding the CFL, I wouldn't want a Canadian league if it's just like the CFL. The CFL isn't much. 8 teams is a joke. They only play 18 games or so. The level of quality is not as good as the NFL.

I don't think a new CSL would come close to being as competitive as MLS. And some people on this board already complain about the quality of MLS. It would be hampered financially and competitively.

Plus, I like seeing American teams come to town.

Keystone FC
07-30-2010, 03:34 PM
In Canada soccer doesn't have to compete with college sports or the NFL and outside of Toronto it doesn't have to compete with baseball or the NBA either. Soccer could become as succesful as the CFL in Canada - solid TV ratings, good attendance and $4.5 million dollar payrolls.

It's possible that soccer in Canada will actually be held back by being too closely tied to soccer in the USA if it doesn't break through there.

This is true but from what I see in Canada it's not a fight against other leagues but a tussle for sponsorship dollars and people willing to buy a franchise. Canada's sports sponsorship money is heavly tied to hockey (NHL, CHL, and all the Jr. Leagues) then comes CFL. After that it depends on what city you live in and what other sports they offer.
Now Canada has the people to buy a franchise but they tend to go towards EPL clubs.
It comes down to the resources that a pro league needs to start up and Canada doesn't have that...right now. Then there is the governing body of Canadian Soccer which is th eCSA which needs to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt. Right there is the first thing that needs to happen.

Keystone FC
07-30-2010, 03:37 PM
ummmm.....when canada has their own professional hockey league first, then after we can talk about soccer, but for now .................................................. ...



MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER it is
Actually there was a proposal of a new league called the Canadian Pro Hockey League back in the 90's when it seemed the NHL would abandon Canada for the glitz and money of the States. It couldn't get backing.

Keystone FC
07-30-2010, 03:41 PM
The that always gets lost in these (absolutely crazy) debates is that outside of a few urban areas in Canada the appetite for a Canadian franchise is pretty small. I have my doubts some of these recently announced teams will have long lives (but i hope they do well).

It just doesn't enter some peoples minds that in terms of interest Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are on COMPLETELY different levels from everyone else.

A Canadian league would be 7 or 8 teams continually losing money with low budgets and interest levels to match. Let's stick to MLS, and avoid the visit down to crazy town.
I thought about this and if true then the only way a soccer league would fly is to have 2 teams in the Big 3 and then maybe a club in Hamilton, Ottawa, Edmonton, and maybe Quebec City. That's 10 teams, 3 derbys, and out-of-city rivalries for everyone.

TFCRegina
07-30-2010, 03:47 PM
With Ottawa, Victoria, and Hamilton joining NASL, and Montreal and Vancouver Joining MLS, I think that its about time to start putting thought into creating a league, somewhat like MLS, in Canada.

Im not saying in the next year or two, but creating a league takes time, and there would need to be information given to the cities about what the Canadian League will attempt too accomplish.

What would you all think if TFC, Vancouver, and Montreal pulled out of MLS in 5-6 Years time, and joined a Canadian League? Think we would be able to bring in talent similar to MLS, or do you think the league would fall on its face?

No. The league failed because there's not enough interest in it and the transportation costs are too high.

No team in MLS will willingly leave MLS, and the quality of play is higher there.

Absolutely against this.

Beach_Red
07-30-2010, 03:49 PM
This is true but from what I see in Canada it's not a fight against other leagues but a tussle for sponsorship dollars and people willing to buy a franchise. Canada's sports sponsorship money is heavly tied to hockey (NHL, CHL, and all the Jr. Leagues) then comes CFL. After that it depends on what city you live in and what other sports they offer.



So, hockey and the CFL means the winter is covered and 8 home games in the summer.

If Canada had any entrepeneurial spirit people would see this as a wide open opportunity - the most popular sport in the world with almost no competition for ticket sales, sponsorship and TV deals.

But you're right, this is Canada and it's always been a branch-plant economy. I wonder if that will ever change?

Hitcho
07-30-2010, 03:50 PM
The simple fact si there's not enough money in a Canada only football league to make it viable. MSL is viable because sponsors, advertisers and tv companies are prepared to reach for the potentially enormous US audience. If you went Canada only, you'd only get a tiny fraction of the potential revenue streams that would be available in the US. Plus MLS can draw some kind of international interest over time, even if it will never compare with European leagues. Somehow I cannot see anyone anywhere paying to pick up Canada league tv rights.

Theer's also probably not enough money from gate draws to maintain more than a few professional clubs in Canada. Can you honestly imagine a league of 15 TFC's? I cannot see that ever coming to pass.

So, without the infrastructure money from sponsors and tv companies, and without the gate attendance money, how are they going to keep the league afloat, never mind afford decent level players who could earn a whole whack more money by playing south of the border, which likely means Canadian players would scoot off to MLS first chance they got.

I don;t like the diea of being a small fish in the US football pond, but realistically it's the only way to maintain what we currently have in terms of TFC match day and league experience.

Keystone FC
07-30-2010, 04:00 PM
So, hockey and the CFL means the winter is covered and 8 home games in the summer.

If Canada had any entrepeneurial spirit people would see this as a wide open opportunity - the most popular sport in the world with almost no competition for ticket sales, sponsorship and TV deals.

But you're right, this is Canada and it's always been a branch-plant economy. I wonder if that will ever change?

I just wonder how much money is tied into those two sports and since we're talking sponsorship we all know it's a 365 24 hour thing so there are promotions going on even in the off season which seems to shrink year by year. If the CSA would restructure and be able to get enough of those sponsorship dollars then I think it's a possiblity for a CSL to exist.

DichioTFC
07-30-2010, 04:12 PM
I love when people refute their own suggestion.

Attempting to create a Canadian Soccer League would be suicide.


I love when people don't read the whole post.

My suggestion was that a Canadian Soccer League is a good idea and should be implemented so long as its a partner to MLS, not a competitor.

My point about OHL/QMJHL/WHL was that although they are not professional, they are successful and their reason for being so is that they partner with the NHL.

If a Canadian Soccer League were to partner with MLS (i.e. Youth elements, reserve league, what have you), it would be a success.

The A/AA/AAA leagues of baseball are examples of where these reserve leagues are successful in their local markets and provide a useful feature for the senior clubs.

Competing with MLS would be suicide, but working with MLS would help grow the sport across North America.

TFC_Central
07-30-2010, 04:38 PM
Do you think that would be the case if there was a Canadian and a US hockey league?

it would be nice to have one first.

Yohan
07-30-2010, 06:51 PM
I love when people don't read the whole post.

My suggestion was that a Canadian Soccer League is a good idea and should be implemented so long as its a partner to MLS, not a competitor.

My point about OHL/QMJHL/WHL was that although they are not professional, they are successful and their reason for being so is that they partner with the NHL.

If a Canadian Soccer League were to partner with MLS (i.e. Youth elements, reserve league, what have you), it would be a success.

The A/AA/AAA leagues of baseball are examples of where these reserve leagues are successful in their local markets and provide a useful feature for the senior clubs.

Competing with MLS would be suicide, but working with MLS would help grow the sport across North America.
how is this partnership going to work?

it sounds like this CSL would be a feeder league to MLS, just like OHL/WHL etc are feeder league to NHL

I don't see how the new CSL would have any sort of clout to attract talent and money that MLS does, therefore be forever relegated to playing 2nd fiddle to MLS

rocker
07-30-2010, 07:00 PM
what's the business case for TFC to leave MLS?

Kaz
07-30-2010, 07:28 PM
Ok the only way a Canadian Soccer league would work is to build it from the ground up..
you would have to set-up a euro league style system. with the country broken into 4 main groups.

The 1) Maritimes, 2) Ontario/Quebec, 3) North Western Ontario/Prairies and Nunavut 4) Alberta/BC and Territories.

area 1 and 2 feed into The Eastern League, and league 3 and 4 in The Western League.

Both the Eastern and Western League feed into a 8 team national league, playing for the Rogers Cup, and the top team gets berthed into the voyagers cup.

Leagues 1-4 are feed by local amateur leagues.

With that set up you might.. might get a Canadian Association Football base of players of enough size to compete well in the World Cup and take a #2 position in the Canadian Soccer System... eventually.

But to even get to the point of having a national league you need 4 years to prep it. And all the provincial associations to get on side as well as the CSA, not to mention existing semi-pro leagues.

This would be the only way to build the infrastructure, coaching base, reffing, and players in a natural and sustainable way, without you know a nation interest in the game at a professional level.

Blizzard
07-30-2010, 07:34 PM
how is this partnership going to work?

it sounds like this CSL would be a feeder league to MLS, just like OHL/WHL etc are feeder league to NHL

I don't see how the new CSL would have any sort of clout to attract talent and money that MLS does, therefore be forever relegated to playing 2nd fiddle to MLS

Ya, Deechs, I'm afraid I have to agree with Yohan here. I was going to write pretty much the same thing he has done.

If that's the goal, ok, that's not a bad goal but I can't help thinking that there are others out there of the mindset that a new attempt at truly professional soccer in Canada must exist at the same level of MLS as opposed to being a farm league.

Previous posts in this thread certainly seem to give me that impression (as if I could somehow misinterpret their views :rolleyes:).

To my mind, any new national CSL can best aspire to logically exist only at a level comparable to the original CSL of 1987 to 1993 playing in stadiums of 2.5 to 5k. Those thinking of reaching the levels of the CFL, while their goals are laudable, well ..... it just ain't gonna happen folks.

Blizzard
07-30-2010, 07:36 PM
what's the business case for TFC to leave MLS?

Exactly. There isn't one. Not for Toronto, not for Vancouver and not for Montreal.

That doesn't mean that a USL1/NASL level all-Canadian league cannot exist without our three MLS cities or even within those cities but let's be realistic folks. A CFL level All-Canadian Soccer League is not at all likely to develop. Our best bet is as many MLS teams as we can get plus a decent minor pro league to feed it.

Macksam
07-30-2010, 08:35 PM
ummmm.....when canada has their own professional hockey league first, then after we can talk about soccer, but for now .................................................. ...



MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER it is
The NHL is our league. The American teams came after. The allocation of where the teams are now doesn't mean anything.

I love when people refute their own suggestion.

Attempting to create a Canadian Soccer League would be suicide.

Like Guerro said, when we can develop our own professional Canadian Hockey League, only then would I entertain the thought of a Canadian professional anything else.

I mean, if we cant run our own league in a sport where 20,000 people, in 6 different cities will pay through the nose 41 nights a year to watch the best players in the world (who happen to be largely Canadian) compete then we have absolute no business even entertaining the thought of a professional Canadian Soccer League. If it were attempted, it would play out exactly like the present CSL. It would kill professional soccer in Canada for another 30 years.

Its annoying that people even suggest this.
How does this even make sense? Ever think that we could, but don't want to have an exclusive Canadian league? Why would we break off from the NHL? So we can add 3 or 4 more teams and have a ten team Canadian Hockey League or something? Hell, at least two teams are probably going to return to Canada in the near future so tell me this. What do we gain from having a Canadian Hockey league with let's say 10 Canadian teams compared to a North American hockey league that has let's say 8 Canadian teams and 22 American teams?

Whether we have an exclusive pro hockey league or not has no bearing what so ever on if we could have a successful Canadian soccer league. Also, you do realize a league called the CFL exists right? I thought we had to develop our own exclusive professional hockey league first before entertaining the thought of another professional sport?

Just to make it clear, I'm not in the pro Canadian league for the sake of having a pro Canadian league camp. However, If we can make one really good and comparable to MLS, by all means.

Given that MLS is so conservatively run, I don't see why there'd be any doubts about its continued existence. The doubts may be about its potential to become a top league in NA or the world, but if it's survived since 1996 in tough conditions, I don't see it dying any time soon.

Regarding the CFL, I wouldn't want a Canadian league if it's just like the CFL. The CFL isn't much. 8 teams is a joke. They only play 18 games or so. The level of quality is not as good as the NFL.

I don't think a new CSL would come close to being as competitive as MLS. And some people on this board already complain about the quality of MLS. It would be hampered financially and competitively.

Plus, I like seeing American teams come to town.
The only way I could see an all Canadian league forming is if Canadian MLS, NASL and voyageur cup ratings are through the roof and CBC offers the Canadian MLS teams a $100 million TV contract to break away and form a Canadian exclusive league with the NASL teams. In that sense, they would have a lot of financial backing and could even over throw their American counterparts in the money department.

So, hockey and the CFL means the winter is covered and 8 home games in the summer.

If Canada had any entrepeneurial spirit people would see this as a wide open opportunity - the most popular sport in the world with almost no competition for ticket sales, sponsorship and TV deals.

But you're right, this is Canada and it's always been a branch-plant economy. I wonder if that will ever change?
Rookie Blue:D

it would be nice to have one first.
We already do. Unless ofcourse, the Americans don't have one either.

Stryker
07-30-2010, 08:58 PM
Le fail.


http://laylekoncar.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451e52469e2013483b751df970c-300wi

TFC07
07-30-2010, 11:27 PM
ummmm.....when canada has their own professional hockey league first, then after we can talk about soccer, but for now .................................................. ...



MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER it is

WHAT? Who cares about hockey.

If you want soccer to grow (both in terms of fanbase and player pool) you need a league. MLS isn't enough to grow soccer in Canada.

Unlike Americans, Canadians are open minded enough to watch/support soccer. If you look at TV ratings of world cup, you notice (percentage wise) Canada had better ratings than USA.

TFC07
07-30-2010, 11:29 PM
what's the business case for TFC to leave MLS?

Who said TFC has to leave MLS? LOL

Someone can form a Toronto/GTA team or two without MLSE/TFC in Canadian league.

DichioTFC
07-31-2010, 03:09 AM
how is this partnership going to work?

it sounds like this CSL would be a feeder league to MLS, just like OHL/WHL etc are feeder league to NHL

I don't see how the new CSL would have any sort of clout to attract talent and money that MLS does, therefore be forever relegated to playing 2nd fiddle to MLS


Ya, Deechs, I'm afraid I have to agree with Yohan here. I was going to write pretty much the same thing he has done.

If that's the goal, ok, that's not a bad goal but I can't help thinking that there are others out there of the mindset that a new attempt at truly professional soccer in Canada must exist at the same level of MLS as opposed to being a farm league.

Previous posts in this thread certainly seem to give me that impression (as if I could somehow misinterpret their views :rolleyes:).

To my mind, any new national CSL can best aspire to logically exist only at a level comparable to the original CSL of 1987 to 1993 playing in stadiums of 2.5 to 5k. Those thinking of reaching the levels of the CFL, while their goals are laudable, well ..... it just ain't gonna happen folks.

Exactly, a reserve league. Similar to European football. Similar to American baseball. Similar to the CHL. It works on many levels. No way in hell should a Canadian league compete with MLS. It simply does not make sense. There are four cities in Canada that are willing to support professional sports; Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Edmonton / Calgary. That's it. Fuck Ottawa, fuck Hamilton, fuck Halifax; they simply have not proven to provide mainstream to support a losing team like the other four cities will (which is obviously a necessity).

People have to look at things on perspective. Windsor Spitfires won the Memorial Trophy this year. Their arena seats 6000. That's appropriate for their market (200K). If Ottawa were to get a soccer team, no way would they be able to get more than 10,000. Same with Hamilton, Halifax, Regina and Winnipeg. 10,000 tops and any other fairweather fans that want to ride the team's coattails. And with a market that small, the teams need to be able to compete on a smaller scale in a smaller league.


WHAT? Who cares about hockey.

If you want soccer to grow (both in terms of fanbase and player pool) you need a league. MLS isn't enough to grow soccer in Canada.

Unlike Americans, Canadians are open minded enough to watch/support soccer. If you look at TV ratings of world cup, you notice (percentage wise) Canada had better ratings than USA.

I completely disagree. Sure, 18% of 30m watched the World Cup, but that 5m is the market ceiling, not the norm. Meanwhile, 15% of 330m Americans watched, leaving a ceiling of almost 50 million. The greater percentage means that more Canadians are one-time watchers (which is obvious since so many promote their European / South American ancestry during the tournament). The higher percentage will not translate to that same viewer purchasing a season ticket to watch Moose Jaw United. Fact of the matter is that there are 10x more soccer consumers in the US than Canada.

I'm so tired of this "American's don't watch soccer" argument. It's huge on the collegiate circuit, there are dozens of soccer bars in every metropolis, and US Soccer is actively developing and promoting the sport to kids (something the Canadian Soccer Association is struggling with, at best).

DichioTFC
07-31-2010, 03:12 AM
Proof that a Canadian Soccer League wont work:

How many people follow the Toronto Lynx / Know that they might fold prior to the next season? And of the ones who do know, how many actually care?

ag futbol
07-31-2010, 07:48 AM
WHAT? Who cares about hockey.

If you want soccer to grow (both in terms of fanbase and player pool) you need a league. MLS isn't enough to grow soccer in Canada.

Unlike Americans, Canadians are open minded enough to watch/support soccer. If you look at TV ratings of world cup, you notice (percentage wise) Canada had better ratings than USA.
Well actually the ratings for the worldcup between Canada and the USA were both very good and composed a similar percentage of the population. Let's check our facts before we fall all over ourselves spewing vitriol.

As of growing soccer... Yeah a league would be nice, but there has to be the conditions out there to actually support a league. The evidence is pretty heavily against it at this point. A solid base of fans, SSS, support from local government, and capital (which would be a problem for everyone but Ottawa) are just some of the problems they would face.

And maybe the biggest one would be the structure of the league and transportation costs due to a wonky geographic distribution. Has anyone seen how hard a time the CFL has staying profitable? And they actually garner things soccer could only dream of at this point in terms of interest in various markets, average attendance figures, TV contracts, and merch sales.

So if you're saying a Canadian league would actually fly, you at least need to justify how it's going to pull in more dollars than the CFL. Outside of the major 3 markets, there is absolutely zero chance of that happening.

rocker
07-31-2010, 08:56 AM
Who said TFC has to leave MLS? LOL

Someone can form a Toronto/GTA team or two without MLSE/TFC in Canadian league.

Yeah sure!
Let's just start up a new team, without a stadium, to steal away support from one of best supported teams in MLS: TFC.
Then let's get fans to pay for substandard football (substandard compared to MLS).

Yeah, that's gonna work... LOL. You don't think these things through, do ya?

The only way this works is if TFC leaves MLS. A Canadian league wouldn't be able to compete against Whitecaps, Impact, and TFC.

TFC07
07-31-2010, 10:29 AM
I completely disagree. Sure, 18% of 30m watched the World Cup, but that 5m is the market ceiling, not the norm. Meanwhile, 15% of 330m Americans watched, leaving a ceiling of almost 50 million. The greater percentage means that more Canadians are one-time watchers (which is obvious since so many promote their European / South American ancestry during the tournament). The higher percentage will not translate to that same viewer purchasing a season ticket to watch Moose Jaw United. Fact of the matter is that there are 10x more soccer consumers in the US than Canada.

I'm so tired of this "American's don't watch soccer" argument. It's huge on the collegiate circuit, there are dozens of soccer bars in every metropolis, and US Soccer is actively developing and promoting the sport to kids (something the Canadian Soccer Association is struggling with, at best).

That number is based on ESPN ratings or did you include spanish speaking channels as well in your American ratings? How is ESPN ratings when it came to non-american games?

J .
07-31-2010, 10:35 AM
Dont we already have the CSL? Also known as the Canadian Soccer League? Yeah.

/end thread.

TFC07
07-31-2010, 10:39 AM
As of growing soccer... Yeah a league would be nice, but there has to be the conditions out there to actually support a league. The evidence is pretty heavily against it at this point. A solid base of fans, SSS, support from local government, and capital (which would be a problem for everyone but Ottawa) are just some of the problems they would face.

And maybe the biggest one would be the structure of the league and transportation costs due to a wonky geographic distribution. Has anyone seen how hard a time the CFL has staying profitable? And they actually garner things soccer could only dream of at this point in terms of interest in various markets, average attendance figures, TV contracts, and merch sales.

So if you're saying a Canadian league would actually fly, you at least need to justify how it's going to pull in more dollars than the CFL. Outside of the major 3 markets, there is absolutely zero chance of that happening.

Yes you're right with distance argument, but your other argument is debateable. I think soccer will get tons of support and money (to build SSS) from the government but downside to that will be that some CFL teams will try to get piece of that and force their way into these SSS. Since CSA is trying to bid on World Cup in couple of decade, this will give more reason to build SSS across the country.

Other argument about attendance and interest will depend how the league markets itself to people. As for TV ratings, will I bet ya it ratings will be higher than MLS ratings in Canada which will lead to a bigger contract and more sponsorship money. Lol

TFC07
07-31-2010, 10:40 AM
Proof that a Canadian Soccer League wont work:

How many people follow the Toronto Lynx / Know that they might fold prior to the next season? And of the ones who do know, how many actually care?

Well people were saying the same thing when TFC was born. Using Lynx as an example that soccer will fail in Toronto. :rolleyes:

TFC07
07-31-2010, 10:44 AM
Yeah sure!
Let's just start up a new team, without a stadium, to steal away support from one of best supported teams in MLS: TFC.
Then let's get fans to pay for substandard football (substandard compared to MLS).

Yeah, that's gonna work... LOL. You don't think these things through, do ya?

The only way this works is if TFC leaves MLS. A Canadian league wouldn't be able to compete against Whitecaps, Impact, and TFC.

Without a stadium? BMO field says hi!

Blame TFC if they lose support to a Canadian Soccer League team. I am sure if Toronto team in Canadian league is run proper, then people (as in soccer fans) will ditch TFC in a heartbeat. TFC has been a joke so far. The only thing keeping them alive is fanbase.

Macksam
07-31-2010, 02:07 PM
Exactly, a reserve league. Similar to European football. Similar to American baseball. Similar to the CHL. It works on many levels. No way in hell should a Canadian league compete with MLS. It simply does not make sense. There are four cities in Canada that are willing to support professional sports; Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver and Edmonton / Calgary. That's it. Fuck Ottawa, fuck Hamilton, fuck Halifax; they simply have not proven to provide mainstream to support a losing team like the other four cities will (which is obviously a necessity).

Considering you just named five cities, I think it's safe to say you're knowledge is limited at best. Ottawa is a valid city as well along with some others. An MLS team in Ottawa can draw 20,000 plus.

Proof that a Canadian Soccer League wont work:

How many people follow the Toronto Lynx / Know that they might fold prior to the next season? And of the ones who do know, how many actually care?
This is not proof at all.

Redcoe15
07-31-2010, 02:55 PM
Considering you just named five cities, I think it's safe to say you're knowledge is limited at best. Ottawa is a valid city as well along with some others. An MLS team in Ottawa can draw 20,000 plus.
Based on what? Eugene Melnyk saying so?

Macksam
07-31-2010, 03:05 PM
Based on what? Eugene Melnyk saying so?
Market size, demographics and a host of other things. A city like Ottawa can do those things. I didn't say they will draw 20,000 for an MLS team, but can draw 20,000. The ingredients are all there. DichioTFC said they would 10,000 max which is pretentious as f***. Now, if he was talking specifically referring to NASL, then it's not so bad.

TFCRegina
07-31-2010, 03:24 PM
Market size, demographics and a host of other things. A city like Ottawa can do those things. I didn't say they will draw 20,000 for an MLS team, but can draw 20,000. The ingredients are all there. DichioTFC said they would 10,000 max which is pretentious as f***. Now, if he was talking specifically referring to NASL, then it's not so bad.

I've lived in Ottawa for about a year total in the last two years, I know several people here.

I think I have a good gauge on the city, and will likely move here when I finish university.

I can't see an Ottawa MLS team drawing 20,000.

They'd be lucky to draw 10 grand, and DTFC was absolutely correct.

Kaz
07-31-2010, 03:50 PM
What is with all this steal support BS? if that was true the Leafs must be hella pissed at the Marlies, St Mikes, the Brampton Battalion, etc and of course the Hamilton, the bulldogs, St. Catharines Icedogs, Thorold Blackhawks, etc.

And of course the Jays with the Bisons so close must just be hating that...

Macksam
07-31-2010, 06:36 PM
I've lived in Ottawa for about a year total in the last two years, I know several people here.

I think I have a good gauge on the city, and will likely move here when I finish university.

I can't see an Ottawa MLS team drawing 20,000.

They'd be lucky to draw 10 grand, and DTFC was absolutely correct.
Just another subjective opinion. I bet you were in the same boat when TFC was first announced.

Redcoe15
07-31-2010, 06:45 PM
Just another subjective opinion. I bet you were in the same boat when TFC was first announced.
And have you lived longer in Ottawa that would trump TFCRegina's opinion?

BTW, I noticed you changed your original line from You'll have to do better than that. Are you trying to pick up the flaming torch once held by mighty_torontofc_2008?

Macksam
07-31-2010, 07:00 PM
And have you lived longer in Ottawa that would trump TFCRegina's opinion?

BTW, I noticed you changed your original line from You'll have to do better than that. Are you trying to pick up the flaming torch once held by mighty_torontofc_2008?
Don't clump me in with that garbage. He was a troll who wanted Canadian soccer to fail.

DichioTFC
07-31-2010, 07:13 PM
That number is based on ESPN ratings or did you include spanish speaking channels as well in your American ratings? How is ESPN ratings when it came to non-american games?

The details and semantics end up delivering the same point, that American support of the game is stronger, person-by-person, than in Canada. Percentages are nice and it show there is larger mainstream acceptance, but more people = more money and the money is in the United States.

DichioTFC
07-31-2010, 07:15 PM
Well people were saying the same thing when TFC was born. Using Lynx as an example that soccer will fail in Toronto. :rolleyes:

You're right about that, but the organizational structure of Canadian-only leagues like the CFL and teams like the Lynx do not allow themselves to achieve long-term profitability in the same sense. Lynx is more proof that we have a local Canadian soccer team and nobody cares about it. There are many factors that lead in to this (promotion, quality of play, etc.), but in the end, we all love soccer and we all (for the most part) ignore the Lynx.

DichioTFC
07-31-2010, 07:45 PM
Considering you just named five cities, I think it's safe to say you're knowledge is limited at best. Ottawa is a valid city as well along with some others. An MLS team in Ottawa can draw 20,000 plus.


Lol attacking my "knowledge" because I named five cities? Why, because my RPB location is listed as Detroit, MI? Of the 26 years of my life, 25 have been in Canada and 24 have been in Ontario. I've followed NHL and CFL, before and after Ottawa teams joined and failed. I love Ottawa and go there all the time, its a beautiful place and a great capital city. But it's not a sports town.

Roughriders have failed. Renegades have failed. Senators were the big draw when they were winning, but how was attendance when they were dead last in the NHL? 9800 in 1995, for a national Canadian pasttime that gets major mainstream attention. Will they continuously draw the attendance that Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary or Edmonton do regardless of team result? Those are the 5 Canadian sports towns. Ottawa is a tech town, a political town, a business town. Not a sports town. Which is unfortunate but the truth.


Market size, demographics and a host of other things. A city like Ottawa can do those things. I didn't say they will draw 20,000 for an MLS team, but can draw 20,000. The ingredients are all there. DichioTFC said they would 10,000 max which is pretentious as f***. Now, if he was talking specifically referring to NASL, then it's not so bad.

The ingredients are not there. They need a wealthy owner who will invest in the team without prejudice. Like Steinbrenner, like MLSE, like Jerry Jones. Who does Ottawa have? Eugene Melnyk? Give me a break.

Opening day would be 20,000. The season average for the first season would be much lower. Every season thereafter would have declining attendance. They'll never reach 20,000 unless its for a major Euro friendly. The owner wont be able to stomach it and will look to sell. Not finding any other owners, the team will fold. This is the story of Ottawa sports, and it will happen to a professional soccer franchise in Ottawa.

Like TFCRegina wrote, the market wont bear 10,000+. So why force a product that is predestined to fail? And if you agree an Ottawa MLS team wont draw 20K, what in the world would the circumstance be that garners 20K soccer fans continuously?

Let's talk market size and demographics. Ottawa has a total population of 800K. The size of the population that is between 25-55, main season ticket holders (which, as you know, is the main target market for any sports franchise) is 365K. Of these 365K, the number of males (again, primary consumer) are 177K. Of these 177K, there is a 65% employment rate (people who are employment age, above 15, and not unemployed and are not uninvolved in the labour force); leaving a sub-total market of 115K. Obviously the main consumers are also have higher levels of education (higher education = more disposal income), and that's 54.6% of the population, which is very high. But still, that leaves 62,800.

The market size of Ottawa under the most conservative estimate is less than 63,000. So you're expecting 33% of those to buy tickets and actively participate in a Ottawa soccer team? That's beyond pretentious, that's just stupid.

Waggy
07-31-2010, 09:03 PM
I'm surprised this thread is still going. A few simple reasons why MLS is North Americas league

1) Canada doesn't have the corporate base to support a league. Thats why the Jets, Expos and Nordiques moved. That's how the Oilers and Flames almost went bankrupt 10 years ago. Why the CFL has been bailed out by the NFL numerous times, why the Ottawa CFL franchise can't maintain it's existance, and why the CFL despite selling 30 000+ seats on average can't afford to pay players more than the 75-350k they currently do. Tickets sold are meaningless in terms of profit for a sports team. It's all about corporate dollars, boxes and sponsorships. Outside of the concentrations in Toronto and to a lesser extent Vancouver and Montreal that doesn't exist. That's also why Bettman isn't jumping at the chance to put another NHL team in Canada.

2) The CFL has 120 years of history to draw on, as does the NHL. In a purely capitalist market, neither would be alive right now. A new soccer league has none of those things

3) As has been proved time and time again, people don't like supporting 'minor' leagues. The eurosnobs who feel MLS is beneith them, they're going to back the minor league of that minor league? Speaking of which

4) The quality of play would not be good, and wouldn't be likely to improve because the dollars simply won't be there. Soccers growth in Canada is inexorably tied to the success of TFC, the Impact and the Whitecaps. That is the future. Not tearing down the sand castles that have FINALLY been built after 40 years of trying, simply to promote the game in smaller markets that can't support pro teams.


Finally: Right now the dollar is roughly on par with the US dollar. How much profit do you seriously think TFC will make IN mls if/when the Canadian dollar is back to 70 cents to the US dollar? The recession won't last forever. Canadas economic clout is very good, but sadly probably not going to last forever. These things go in cycles. A Canadian only league could BARELY survive during the up part of the cycle, it's doomed in the down. Taking Canadian soccer with it.


EDIT: One last point to remember, the MLS survived as a mostly charitable entity until the recent expansion. If they can't make money and make a league work without a shit ton of luck, hard work, trial and error and a TON of money down the drain, how are we going to?

Blizzard
07-31-2010, 09:24 PM
I'm surprised this thread is still going. A few simple reasons why MLS is North Americas league

1) Canada doesn't have the corporate base to support a league. Thats why the Jets, Expos and Nordiques moved. That's how the Oilers and Flames almost went bankrupt 10 years ago. Why the CFL has been bailed out by the NFL numerous times

Once actually. A relatively small financial loan that was paid back a long, long time ago.

Waggy
07-31-2010, 09:30 PM
Once actually. A relatively small financial loan that was paid back a long, long time ago.

What is the NFL Network paying the CFL for its broadcast deal in the states? Look I'm a huge CFL fan but if it wasn't for the NFL needing the competition to avoid an anti-trust suite, the CFL would have been in a mess of trouble quite a few times. Also, has the CFL even paid that loan back in full yet? lol.

Macksam
07-31-2010, 09:59 PM
Roughriders have failed. Renegades have failed. Senators were the big draw when they were winning, but how was attendance when they were dead last in the NHL? 9800 in 1995, for a national Canadian pasttime that gets major mainstream attention. Will they continuously draw the attendance that Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary or Edmonton do regardless of team result? Those are the 5 Canadian sports towns. Ottawa is a tech town, a political town, a business town. Not a sports town. Which is unfortunate but the truth.

The Roughriders and Renegades still drew around 20,000 normally. The failing came from bad ownership. The rest of your points are valid though.


1) Canada doesn't have the corporate base to support a league. Thats why the Jets, Expos and Nordiques moved. That's how the Oilers and Flames almost went bankrupt 10 years ago. Why the CFL has been bailed out by the NFL numerous times, why the Ottawa CFL franchise can't maintain it's existance, and why the CFL despite selling 30 000+ seats on average can't afford to pay players more than the 75-350k they currently do. Tickets sold are meaningless in terms of profit for a sports team. It's all about corporate dollars, boxes and sponsorships. Outside of the concentrations in Toronto and to a lesser extent Vancouver and Montreal that doesn't exist. That's also why Bettman isn't jumping at the chance to put another NHL team in Canada.

1) The Jets and Nordiques moved because of the lack of new facilities. With Quebec City planning a new arena for the 2022 Winter Olympics, that problem will be solved for them.

2) The CFL doesn't make that much money because the sport of football is limited in it's appeal, and the NFL is right next door. Back 70 odd years ago, soccer and football were both on equal terms when it came to popularity as a spectator sport across Canada. Had soccer won that battle instead of football, I gaurentee that the Canadian soccer league that would have formed out of that would have been much more popular across the country than what the CFL is today. It probably would have had NHL level popularity across this country.

3) A seventh NHL team will come soon.

4) Edmonton and Calgary have good corporate bases.

Once actually. A relatively small financial loan that was paid back a long, long time ago.
People are feeling pretentious today Blizzard.

DichioTFC
07-31-2010, 11:07 PM
I'm surprised this thread is still going. A few simple reasons why MLS is North Americas league

1) Canada doesn't have the corporate base to support a league. Thats why the Jets, Expos and Nordiques moved. That's how the Oilers and Flames almost went bankrupt 10 years ago. Why the CFL has been bailed out by the NFL numerous times, why the Ottawa CFL franchise can't maintain it's existance, and why the CFL despite selling 30 000+ seats on average can't afford to pay players more than the 75-350k they currently do. Tickets sold are meaningless in terms of profit for a sports team. It's all about corporate dollars, boxes and sponsorships. Outside of the concentrations in Toronto and to a lesser extent Vancouver and Montreal that doesn't exist. That's also why Bettman isn't jumping at the chance to put another NHL team in Canada.

I agree with most of what you wrote, and while I wouldn't say ticket sales are "meaningless", exclusive TV contracts are the name of the game for sports. The millions that the athletes get are through the TV dollars that companies acquire in revenue, not necessarily Joe Blow getting a club seat for a couple games.

The amount that ESPN / Rogers / CBC / other local broadcasters in other markets spend to purchase the rights for MLS games are huge. And its those dollars that go into MLSE's pockets. I wouldn't be surprised if the broadcasters make 25% return on their investments by selling airtime.

Keystone FC
08-01-2010, 12:15 AM
Yeah sure!
Let's just start up a new team, without a stadium, to steal away support from one of best supported teams in MLS: TFC.
Then let's get fans to pay for substandard football (substandard compared to MLS).

Yeah, that's gonna work... LOL. You don't think these things through, do ya?

The only way this works is if TFC leaves MLS. A Canadian league wouldn't be able to compete against Whitecaps, Impact, and TFC.
I'm not to sure on this. Again, BMO just might lease out to the new club as a way to not only generate more revenue but also to promote soccer. It's not out of the question.
Whose to say a new club would 'steal' away support from TFC. There are those people out there who don't support TFC for a number of reasons: 1) They're not the Blizzards, 2) Their not blue, 3) Too inner city and not in the burbs, 4) MLSE owns them so I won't support it...etc.
I think a NASL/CSL Toronto club (if done right) would have support even from TFC fans until V Cup matches, and that's another thing. How crazy would BMO be for the TFC v. Toronto City V Cup match. A proper city derby.
I can understand the hesitation at the prospect of a lower tier Toronto club coming into what has been pretty much a wonderland of support for TFC by not only the fans but the city, media, and basically en entire league. A new club (especially if they win) could upset the apple cart but competition is good and it maybe just what is needed for MLSE to actually wake up and take notice that their days could be numbered unless they get their act together.

Redcoe15
08-01-2010, 10:54 AM
People are feeling pretentious today Blizzard.
http://www.phuckpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg

Blixa
08-01-2010, 11:13 AM
Having three teams in the MLS is a pretty good situation for Canada. There's no need to create a Canadian soccer league for the very sensible reasons many of you have pointed out.

jloome
08-01-2010, 11:27 AM
I agree with most of what you wrote, and while I wouldn't say ticket sales are "meaningless", exclusive TV contracts are the name of the game for sports. The millions that the athletes get are through the TV dollars that companies acquire in revenue, not necessarily Joe Blow getting a club seat for a couple games.

The amount that ESPN / Rogers / CBC / other local broadcasters in other markets spend to purchase the rights for MLS games are huge. And its those dollars that go into MLSE's pockets. I wouldn't be surprised if the broadcasters make 25% return on their investments by selling airtime.

This is generally just untrue

A) canada has a huge corporate base available to support the game. the fact that they haven't done so up to now doesn't mean they aren't there. Despite playing in stank old arenas, neither the flames nor the oilers have any trouble selling corporate boxes.

b) TV ad revenues are enormous and based on much smaller numbers than people expect. You can charge about 10 times what a newspaper can for an ad that hits just 15,000 viewers on average. That's why the fees are so high in the first place. Do some leagues price too high and screw up the formula? Sure. But there's plenty of money in TV advertising.

There are only two major problems in Canada that prevent a domestic league (and travel isn't one of them. Compared to other issues, it's workable): the absence of appropriate infrastructure to sell the game as professional and the absence of investment capital.

The reality is that Canadians in our three biggest cities are proving they want professional football that at least RESEMBLES quality. They want the atmosphere, the camraderie, the drinking (along with reasonable competent footie.)

But you can't do that without a stadium. We could have well-budgeted, well-managed pro clubs across this country ....if the atmosphere could be created in cities and small cities. But without a HUGE upfront capital investment -- likely with underwriting or granting required by government to support bank risk -- and ongoing corporate support, it just won't happen.

It takes a supreme vision, a practical application route and someone connected enough to bring those things together. That's a hell of a difficult formula to cook up though.

I'd say if we pooled not only the relative football intelligence on this board and the business smarts (and heavy hitters, you already know who you are) in terms of venture capital development, we could make a of a crack at it.

Then, after we've developed a workable plan, an idea for how to raise the money and spent countless hundreds of hours putting it all together.......

...... we just have to navigate years of amateur association politics, CSA politics, federal, provincial and civic government politics......

But it's not impossible. If someone wants to start a committee or talking group, I'm up for it.

Fort York Redcoat
08-01-2010, 12:09 PM
Such animosity and cynasism in this thread.

This debate will go on forever folks. If it just annoys you, avoid it. There are plenty of good ideas here. If the sport continues as it has these questions will have to be answered and become a reality.

Mulder
08-02-2010, 09:45 PM
Senators were the big draw when they were winning, but how was attendance when they were dead last in the NHL? 9800 in 1995, for a national Canadian pasttime that gets major mainstream attention.

Not bad at all, considering the Corel Centre wasn't completed until 1996. And the Senators were playing at the Ottawa Civic Centre which sat about 10,500 for the games.

Sorry if i seem to be attacking your 'knowledge'

Keystone FC
08-02-2010, 11:53 PM
Such animosity and cynasism in this thread.

This debate will go on forever folks. If it just annoys you, avoid it. There are plenty of good ideas here. If the sport continues as it has these questions will have to be answered and become a reality.


This is the truth and it will continue to be a forever debate until one thing, and I mean one thing, is done.....RESTUCTURE THE CSA! Then we can discuss a possible Canadian soccer league.

Ivan
08-03-2010, 12:28 PM
I look at this from the base-up perspective. Before we talk about a strong domestic league it helps to know the model we'll use to develop quality domestic players and quality clubs. Right now there's essentially the football factory method (Ajax, West Ham, Barca, Spurs, etc etc) vs. the US method (where some go pro aboard at a young age but most go through the college ranks).

Right now Canada's top players (the CMNT + those who don't play for Canada) have been found relatively late in their youth careers (16,17, 18) and trained at overseas clubs...with one, DeRo, coming up through local amatuer and semi-pro teams and going straight to MLS. Compare that to the US team with many players who played university into their 20s before going pro. Right now Canada's best pros are not going the US route. We're developing teenagers with a European model, except that our players aren't getting top-level development until late (15+ rather than 10,11,12). What's the best way to improve our talent pool?

Some consider the most positive development of TFC in MLS for Canadian soccer as the TFC Academy (and the Impact Academy) but the Whitecaps had a very good academy modelled like the the Euro club academies. They loaned out players to foreign clubs and made money from that. However joining MLS forced them to drop their academy and take on a TFC Academy structure (subject to MLS commie league sharing revenue rules and not allowing one club to have a competitive advantage). I think this was the real issue of tieing our soccer future to MLS.

Since Canadian players were and aren't being trained like US players, we might actually be setting back Canadian development by using a TFC Academy vs. a Whitecap Academy model. The Whitecaps, TFC and Impact should've been able to continue to develop towards a level where they can sell and loan their top youth talent on the world market.

I think MLSE, Impact and Whitecaps have to use their eventual MLS clout to argue that their academies should be allowed to be run free-market style, given how our talent is developed.

I think with those three academies established, and similar academies through Edmonton FC and elsewhere, we could establish teams with strong income-producing roots and then worry later about what league they play in. It's worked for the Whitecaps for years.

On a local level, many teams in the CSL have lasted over 40 or even 50 years through several versions of leagues, and those teams have youth academy programs. Regardless of the lack of money in the CSL, crap venues, almost no media coverage, etc. these teams and academies move along.

CSL teams already feed off the MLS team academies. If they could do so against even stronger academy teams funded by sold and loaned-out players, and further develop their own academies to the point of selling and loaning players, you'd have a better organically driven domestic level of competition and more options for young talent.

If the energy of strong academies and a more competitive CSL could be tied with other regions and all of that provided trickle down money to the youth leagues, I think you'd have a based-on-Europe but made-in-Canada model that could work.

The MLS is good for now but we can't let it hold us back.

james
08-04-2010, 07:48 AM
i think MLS just has much more money. Where would Canada get its money from? Unless we get some multi billionaires i dont think we could compete with MLS.


Since we already have the Canadian Championship tournament (montreal, Van, Toronto....and probably grow to hamilton, Ottawa, Victoria, Edmonton in the near future) i dont know if having an all Canadian League is to inportant, it would be cool, but i just dont see it happening. I can settle with a once a year all Canadian Chapionship tho!

Keystone FC
08-04-2010, 09:35 AM
i think MLS just has much more money. Where would Canada get its money from? Unless we get some multi billionaires i dont think we could compete with MLS.


Since we already have the Canadian Championship tournament (montreal, Van, Toronto....and probably grow to hamilton, Ottawa, Victoria, Edmonton in the near future) i dont know if having an all Canadian League is to inportant, it would be cool, but i just dont see it happening. I can settle with a once a year all Canadian Chapionship tho!

I think, in a way, you bring up a valuable point in that if Canada started up a league of it's own the inital start up would be with cities and owners that have the resources to support a league like this...after that...there isn't much there. MLS expansion fees are climbing and there are plenty of potential markets owners with money to place a team in.
Now, this is not to say that MLS has 'made it' as a league. There was a time where the league looked like it would fail but they reworked a few things and resturctured.
Until the CSA is resturctured, until we have high priced owners or communitees willing to invest, until we have corporation and sponsorships who will back a league there can't be a league.

Fort York Redcoat
08-04-2010, 09:44 AM
I'm telling you guys if you just build on what we have instead of launching something as flashy as MLS you'll see what we need in this country. A platform to launch talent coming up and going down from MLS. Not to mention abroad.

I mean with all the piss and vinegar I have for playoffs this is what they were invented for. Have a nationwide league that plays in their own region till the playoffs. That'll be a start.

Keystone FC
08-04-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm telling you guys if you just build on what we have instead of launching something as flashy as MLS you'll see what we need in this country. A platform to launch talent coming up and going down from MLS. Not to mention abroad.

I mean with all the piss and vinegar I have for playoffs this is what they were invented for. Have a nationwide league that plays in their own region till the playoffs. That'll be a start.
I agree with this and would wholeheartly endorse this BUT at a certain point that platform has to evolve into a true national league, otherwise it's just a Canadian USL league.

tfcmanu
08-04-2010, 01:57 PM
CNSL

West

Victoria Vistas (Royal Athletic Park) 4,247 (Permanent) 25,453 (Temporary) - GRASS
*Vancouver Whitecaps (Temp Empire Stadium) 25,000 - GRASS
*Edmonton Brickmen (Telus Field) 10,000 - GRASS
Calgary Kickers (Foothills Stadium) 6,000 to 10,000 - GRASS
Regina Accelerators (Regina Exhibition Park) 6,000 to 10,000 -GRASS
Winnipeg Fury (University Stadium) 5,000 to 10,000 - GRASS

East

London City (Cove Road Stadium) 1,000 to 10,000 - GRASS
Hamilton Steelers (Brian Timmis Stadium) 5,000 to 10,000 - GRASS
*Toronto FC (BMO Field) 22,000 - GRASS
*Ottawa SC (Ottawa Soccer Stadium) 20,000 - GRASS
*Montreal Imapct (Saputo Stadium) 13,000 to 20,000 - GRASS
Nova Scotia Clippers (Beazley Field) 10,000 EXPANDABLE - GRASS

- Home and away games in your division 12 games

- 1 game against each team in other division rotating every year (save on travel costs)

- 18 total games

- 1 million cap for each team and allowed one DP.

- League would start first Saturday of May and end 2nd Sat of Sept & Playoffs to start the following week.

- Top 3 teams in each divison make playoffs to be played on aggregate home and away 1st place team gets a by into finals of there division and play at home one game, winner to play west winners in championship game with the better team on points playing at home.

trane
08-04-2010, 02:40 PM
I am all for this. A dream would be a proper league, three divisions, 10 teams each division. WITH RELEGATION.

FreeAgent
08-04-2010, 04:33 PM
CNSL

West

Victoria Vistas (Royal Athletic Park) 4,247 (Permanent) 25,453 (Temporary) - GRASS
*Vancouver Whitecaps (Temp Empire Stadium) 25,000 - GRASS
*Edmonton Brickmen (Telus Field) 10,000 - GRASS
Calgary Kickers (Foothills Stadium) 6,000 to 10,000 - GRASS
Regina Accelerators (Regina Exhibition Park) 6,000 to 10,000 -GRASS
Winnipeg Fury (University Stadium) 5,000 to 10,000 - GRASS

East

London City (Cove Road Stadium) 1,000 to 10,000 - GRASS
Hamilton Steelers (Brian Timmis Stadium) 5,000 to 10,000 - GRASS
*Toronto FC (BMO Field) 22,000 - GRASS
*Ottawa SC (Ottawa Soccer Stadium) 20,000 - GRASS
*Montreal Imapct (Saputo Stadium) 13,000 to 20,000 - GRASS
Nova Scotia Clippers (Beazley Field) 10,000 EXPANDABLE - GRASS

- Home and away games in your division 12 games

- 1 game against each team in other division rotating every year (save on travel costs)

- 18 total games

- 1 million cap for each team and allowed one DP.

- League would start first Saturday of May and end 2nd Sat of Sept & Playoffs to start the following week.

- Top 3 teams in each divison make playoffs to be played on aggregate home and away 1st place team gets a by into finals of there division and play at home one game, winner to play west winners in championship game with the better team on points playing at home.

I'm sure it can be done. You don't even need a wage cap. You can tie wages to income or revenue. And an attendance of 5000-7000 per game could make a team viable.

Blizzard
08-04-2010, 08:00 PM
I'm sure it can be done. You don't even need a wage cap. You can tie wages to income or revenue. And an attendance of 5000-7000 per game could make a team viable.

And that is the heart of the problem.

FreeAgent
08-04-2010, 09:29 PM
And that is the heart of the problem.

Fair enough. And I agree...marketing a league would be the hardest part (other than infrastructure). It's difficult, but certainly achievable.

Toronto
Vancouver
Montreal
Ottawa
Calgary
Edmonton
Quebec City
Hamilton
Winnipeg
London

All have the population to support it.