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bgnewf
07-28-2010, 02:29 PM
The CONCACAF Champions League Still Has A Ways To Go

http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/07/the-concacaf-champions-league-still-has-a-ways-to-go/

Different results in Toronto and Los Angeles (both on the pitch and in the stands) bring into clear focus that the CONCACAF Champions League still has a ways to go before becoming a truly successful tournament.

Comments always welcome.

Nazzer
07-28-2010, 02:37 PM
Great article, agree with everything you said. But you're title is misleading; the concacaf champions league doesn't have a ways to go, US based MLS teams have a way to go in understanding the importance of the tournament.

bgnewf
07-28-2010, 02:42 PM
Great article, agree with everything you said. But you're title is misleading; the concacaf champions league doesn't have a ways to go, US based MLS teams have a way to go in understanding the importance of the tournament.

Your point is well taken. Thanks for that Nazzer.

Pookie
07-28-2010, 02:56 PM
Your point is well taken. Thanks for that Nazzer.

I'd say that even here, the casual fan has some "understanding" left to do.

I brought my U9 team down and even amongst supposed soccer fans, quite a few of the parents asked me in the lead up to this whether it was a friendly.

I think the timing of the tournament coinciding with friendlies like TFC vs Bolton, the concept of a Cup tournament that lasts all season/into the post seasson, and the general lack of media coverage leading up to it result in many not appreciating what the tournament is about.

I did think that the announced attendance last night of 18k+ was generous. Support was concentrated in the "light greys" along the edge of the stadium and you could clearly make out the Maple Leaf that paints the seats in 108-109.

Even in the MLS world, I still don't get why NE draws 12k during the regular season and just 7k for the post season.

ginkster88
07-28-2010, 03:02 PM
^^Two related reasons come to mind: fall weather and fair weather fans.

BS1327
07-28-2010, 03:07 PM
I just kind of find it ironic. The Galaxy are more focused on winning the MLS Cup than this "little tournament." But winning the MLS Cup is one of the ways to qualify for this tournament!

My only complaint about it is the two-legs for the final. They need to implement a host city and have one game like UEFA. A true final is only one game, IMO.

Pookie
07-28-2010, 03:09 PM
yeah but it speaks to marketing IMO.

you aren't converting your reg season customer into a playoff customer. To a lesser scale, this is TFC's problem too.

This was a meaningful game with tournament implications. It was a perfect night weather wise and for them to be 3,000+ short of capacity for a franchise that supposedly has a 14,000 strong waiting list is embarrassing.

They couldn't convert their traditional customer into a CONCACAF paying customer.

kodiakTFC
07-28-2010, 03:09 PM
I just kind of find it ironic. The Galaxy are more focused on winning the MLS Cup than this "little tournament." But winning the MLS Cup is one of the ways to qualify for this tournament!

My only complaint about it is the two-legs for the final. They need to implement a host city and have one game like UEFA. A true final is only one game, IMO.

no way concacaf should use a host because it would only ever be in the usa, maybe mexico.

celt-nick
07-28-2010, 03:10 PM
I just kind of find it ironic. The Galaxy are more focused on winning the MLS Cup than this "little tournament." But winning the MLS Cup is one of the ways to qualify for this tournament!

My only complaint about it is the two-legs for the final. They need to implement a host city and have one game like UEFA. A true final is only one game, IMO.


so true.....I bet it'll change.

Pookie
07-28-2010, 03:11 PM
^ maybe the host is the team that has the best cummlative goal differential throughout the tourney?

Beach_Red
07-28-2010, 03:14 PM
yeah but it speaks to marketing IMO.

you aren't converting your reg season customer into a playoff customer. To a lesser scale, this is TFC's problem too.

This was a meaningful game with tournament implications. It was a perfect night weather wise and for them to be 3,000+ short of capacity for a franchise that supposedly has a 14,000 strong waiting list is embarrassing.

They couldn't convert their traditional customer into a CONCACAF paying customer.


How abot you say they haven't turned the traditional customer into a CONCACAF customer yet.

If Montreal could get 50,000 people into Olympic Stadium for a CONCACAF game then Toronto will be able to sell 22,000 tickets for a game. It may take a couple of years, but it'll happen.

flatpicker
07-28-2010, 03:15 PM
My only complaint about it is the two-legs for the final. They need to implement a host city and have one game like UEFA. A true final is only one game, IMO.

This sad thing about a two-leg final is that there is a decent chance that neither team wins a game and you end up with a champion as a result of two ties. Not as exciting as a winner-takes-all single game final. But due to geography and low level on interest in the competition, I think we are a long way off from that dream.

ilikemusic
07-28-2010, 03:20 PM
Americans barely care about MLS and they really dont care about anything non-MLS (CCL or USOC). This really isnt news.

I think LA threw the game against Porto Rico, and I dont neccesarily think it is a completely damning offense. They are better off ignoring the Champions League and instead focusing on the league. Theyre in a great position to win the title and make a run at the cup so why muck things up by getting involved in a tournament you dont have a very good chance at winning anyways?

Now obviously thats a real cop out position. Why not go for all the glory? But I think it behooves MLS clubs to manage pragmatically and sacrafice one title for another. MLS clubs plain and simple do not have the depth to compete concurrently in the MLS and Champions League. Just look at the position TFC is in now. If we are going to prioritize the CL, we are going to have to hold back against KC this weekend.

Its one of the beautiful intricacies of our beautiful game.

And really, Americans just dont 'get it'. No need to look too deep.

Pookie
07-28-2010, 03:23 PM
If Montreal could get 50,000 people into Olympic Stadium for a CONCACAF game then Toronto will be able to sell 22,000 tickets for a game. It may take a couple of years, but it'll happen.

That's why I'm saying this is a marketing problem.

Here we have a team that is supposedly in demand playing in a meaningful tournament and the overpriced friendly vs Bolton drew more. (19,507 vs 18,881)

Part of that has to do with the fact that they included the Bolton game in packages... a marketing thing.

Part of that has to do with the fact that many people went "Hondas? Honduroos? Hon..frig... a Latin Team? Playing in CONCAFE? CONFACAFFEINE... CON..frig... a tournament? " Naw, I'll wait for Real Salt Lake. ... again a marketing thing.

You'd think that some of the 14,000 supposed wait list members would have loved a chance to see TFC play at home on a perfect summer night for reasonable price in a game that meant something.

ilikemusic
07-28-2010, 03:24 PM
I did think that the announced attendance last night of 18k+ was generous. Support was concentrated in the "light greys" along the edge of the stadium and you could clearly make out the Maple Leaf that paints the seats in 108-109.


I think its just indicative of their asinine pricing scale.

It was so obvious where the affordable seats were, and where the rip off seats were. The south end and all four corners were jam packed. In between (unfortunately the places that get seen on TV the most) was sparsely populated.

pdogg
07-28-2010, 03:33 PM
I think its just indicative of their asinine pricing scale.

It was so obvious where the affordable seats were, and where the rip off seats were. The south end and all four corners were jam packed. In between (unfortunately the places that get seen on TV the most) was sparsely populated.


Dark greys were (relatively) empty on both sides, and the rest was full. I bet it's a good indication of which seats get renewed and where people transfer out of.

Good news was the smaller crowder was much louder...

Beach_Red
07-28-2010, 03:42 PM
You'd think that some of the 14,000 supposed wait list members would have loved a chance to see TFC play at home on a perfect summer night for reasonable price in a game that meant something.

It may take a while. Toronto is an "event" city, it follows fads. This idea that soccer fans are different is proving not to be the case (this board is a good example, the closing of the off-topic and international sections makes me think the soccer fan is no different from any other fan in town).

You can only market something so much if the market isn't that willing to buy. And, it seems that the people running this team really have no idea what the market wants - from the very beginning they were off on just about every estimate for everything.

But there's money to be made, so they will figure it out.

gmacpheetfc
07-28-2010, 04:07 PM
I think we will see a great turnout in Seattle tonigh

DichioTFC
07-28-2010, 04:11 PM
With regards to LAG's performance, their focus is on the MLS Cup, I didn't think they would be too concerned with the CCL.

With regards to ticket sales: For an audience that is growing to accept soccer, how do you convince them to accept that there are other teams they've never heard of that are better than their local squad?

As well, if you're not an NHL fan, when do you start watching hockey? The Stanley Cup finals. The CCL preliminary match is a good marketing strategy from a soccer-purist perspective, but not necessarily one for earning apathetic fans.

I would love for the CCL to gain traction in North America but there is simply no historical value or promotion to it. I don't want the format to change per se, but there needs to be promotion so that people will know, this is a big deal. But then again, that's what happens when you market your product to fickle consumers (i.e. soccer moms, kids groups).

Toronto Ruffrider
07-28-2010, 05:18 PM
yeah but it speaks to marketing IMO.

you aren't converting your reg season customer into a playoff customer. To a lesser scale, this is TFC's problem too.

This was a meaningful game with tournament implications. It was a perfect night weather wise and for them to be 3,000+ short of capacity for a franchise that supposedly has a 14,000 strong waiting list is embarrassing.

They couldn't convert their traditional customer into a CONCACAF paying customer.

Or the folks who work in marketing could've gotten off their asses and actually marketed this game. I wonder how many people actually knew this game was taking place. More importantly, I wonder how many people know that some games (including this one) don't sell out. I know quite a few people who want to go to TFC games but don't because they assume that all of the tickets are sold out. It's up to the club to advertise that there are actually TFC tickets available to the general public.

nfitz
07-28-2010, 05:47 PM
Fair comment. It would be nice to see some advertising ... a full-page ad in The Metro. Perhaps even on websites ...

The next CONCACAF game may be more of a challenge, as they'll only have 2 weeks to sell everything after they've learned if we make it in or not.

Darlofletch
07-28-2010, 05:59 PM
Or the folks who work in marketing could've gotten off their asses and actually marketed this game. I wonder how many people actually knew this game was taking place. More importantly, I wonder how many people know that some games (including this one) don't sell out. I know quite a few people who want to go to TFC games but don't because they assume that all of the tickets are sold out. It's up to the club to advertise that there are actually TFC tickets available to the general public.

I doubt you'll see that happen, they like the season ticket sales and waiting list figures. no way they'll volountarily let that one go, they'd rather miss out on a few thousand single game tickets than let people get the idea that there's always spare tickets available so season ticket renewal isn't all that necessary.

UltraSuperMegaMo
07-28-2010, 06:02 PM
TFC should take a page from Fullham's Europa League run and offer the games at a deeply discoutned price.

DichioTFC
07-28-2010, 06:04 PM
I doubt you'll see that happen, they like the season ticket sales and waiting list figures. no way they'll volountarily let that one go, they'd rather miss out on a few thousand single game tickets than let people get the idea that there's always spare tickets available so season ticket renewal isn't all that necessary.

We're giving the FO a bit too much credit. A lost sale now is a sale lost forever. There are strategic implications for not announcing tickets are available, but everywhere you go on TFC links and even in Luke Wileman's report, there was mention of tickets availability.

I expect the FO to really ramp up advertising during this off-season to promote the availability of season tickets, especially with the north end available. We'll see how well it goes, but playoffs = short term and long-term revenues.

Cas87
07-28-2010, 06:37 PM
All that I can say with this is that hopefully over the course of next years MLS and NCC sessions Edmonton and Vancouver really step up and show to the CONCACAF brass that the US with fans and teams not caring whole heartedly means Canada should get one of their spots.

Meaning,

Canada's spots should be allocated to the top two finishers in the NCC (or the winner and the top canadian team in MLS, if they are different)

Then the US spots would be allocated to the MLS Cup winner, the Supporters Shield winner and the US open cup winner (with the respective runners-up being replacements if any team gets more than one of the above awards)

james
07-29-2010, 05:38 AM
I just kind of find it ironic. The Galaxy are more focused on winning the MLS Cup than this "little tournament." But winning the MLS Cup is one of the ways to qualify for this tournament!

My only complaint about it is the two-legs for the final. They need to implement a host city and have one game like UEFA. A true final is only one game, IMO.

My complaint with that is Concacaf Champions League is having trouble getting fans to go to games, attendence is low in probably 85% of the teams in it. Having a nutral city host the final would most likely be played in a half empty stadium with a dead atmosphere. this isnt Europe, the travel distance is massive, the exspenses are high and half the teams in the tournamnet come from countries with not much money. This isnt Europe where fans can travel in big numbers.


Also South America Tournaments are done over 2-legs so both fans can get to see there teams play, and believe me the atmosphere down there is the best. I have no problem with 2-leg final. Not to mention USA/canada are use to the finals played over many games such as baseball/basketball/ and Hockey.

james
07-29-2010, 05:47 AM
^ maybe the host is the team that has the best cummlative goal differential throughout the tourney?


something like that sounds better!

james
07-29-2010, 05:51 AM
I must say tho the tournament may slowloy grow.....DC has had games in Champions League in the passed where they had 20,000 or so fans. Seattle i think like Toronto can get good attendence for any game and seattle drew well in US Open Cup to qualify for champions League (they cared to win US Open Cup unlike other teams)....and Montreal and Vancouver may as well. Maybe Philly to. That puts some teams and cities that some what understand and want to promote the Champions League. Maybe other teams will eventually follow.

bgnewf
07-29-2010, 06:24 AM
Seattle drew just under 18,000 last night for their Champions League qualifier. A good crowd relative to other American cities so far this season, but still less hen half what they regularly draw.

Fort York Redcoat
07-29-2010, 06:42 AM
With regards to ticket sales: For an audience that is growing to accept soccer, how do you convince them to accept that there are other teams they've never heard of that are better than their local squad?

As well, if you're not an NHL fan, when do you start watching hockey? The Stanley Cup finals. The CCL preliminary match is a good marketing strategy from a soccer-purist perspective, but not necessarily one for earning apathetic fans.

.

A colleague of mine who's watched calcio all his life actually assumed that if we qualified v Motagua that we made it to the Champions League.

The European Champions league.

This tourney has a ways to go promotion-wise.

james
07-29-2010, 06:48 AM
A colleague of mine who's watched calcio all his life actually assumed that if we qualified v Motagua that we made it to the Champions League.

The European Champions league.

This tourney has a ways to go promotion-wise.

hahaha!!!! wow. Just shows there people need some education first, people just dont understand it.

james
07-29-2010, 06:53 AM
Seattle drew just under 18,000 last night for their Champions League qualifier. A good crowd relative to other American cities so far this season, but still less hen half what they regularly draw.

ya i think Seattle is a good market, but i dont believe it can keep getting 37,000 a game. This is there early years, i bet few years down the road atttedence will drop. Playing in a 67,000 seat stadium with 37,000 fans inside isnt to bad they suit it up ok....but i do think it would be better for them to get a SSS with 25,000 capacity. I be suprised if they still get over 30,000 by year 5 or 6. or 7.

Fort York Redcoat
07-29-2010, 07:03 AM
Does anyone else think this is an American and to a lesser extent Canadian insular predisposition? That we assume (not we, but those that don't put priority on the Champions league) that any team not from MLS (or to those that know a little more, from Mexico) that the competition quality will be that much worse? Like worse than MLS?

sidvan
07-29-2010, 08:32 AM
yeah but it speaks to marketing IMO.

you aren't converting your reg season customer into a playoff customer. To a lesser scale, this is TFC's problem too.

This was a meaningful game with tournament implications. It was a perfect night weather wise and for them to be 3,000+ short of capacity for a franchise that supposedly has a 14,000 strong waiting list is embarrassing.

They couldn't convert their traditional customer into a CONCACAF paying customer.

Don't forget that part of this crowd got in "free" with make up tickets for the G20 fiasco. I bought tickets to the game but got freebies as well due to the GO train cancellation. Gave them to a couple of die hard fans who wouldn't be able to go otherwise.

bgnewf
07-29-2010, 08:47 AM
Don't forget that part of this crowd got in "free" with make up tickets for the G20 fiasco. I bought tickets to the game but got freebies as well due to the GO train cancellation. Gave them to a couple of die hard fans who wouldn't be able to go otherwise.

Toronto FC - 92% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Seattle Sounders - 47% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Los Angeles Galaxy - 34% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Feeebies or not, those numbers look pretty good for Toronto FC if you ask me. And there is no doubt that the crowd in attendance on Tuesday was one of the more engaged and racous crowds there has been at BMO Field in a while.

Seems to me like some of us are always drawn to try and find something to complain about. Last season by the way TFC drew 20,758 against Puerto Rico Islanders at home.

pdogg
07-29-2010, 09:31 AM
hahaha!!!! wow. Just shows there people need some education first, people just dont understand it.

When people were asking me about the game, I've been using it as a great way to explain CONCACAF and how it works - right down to the Gold Cup and Olympic qualification. The farther Canadian teams go into the CCL, the more interest and understanding around our region will come up. This bodes well not just for TFC & MLS, but for the CMNT too..

pdogg
07-29-2010, 09:36 AM
Don't forget that part of this crowd got in "free" with make up tickets for the G20 fiasco. I bought tickets to the game but got freebies as well due to the GO train cancellation. Gave them to a couple of die hard fans who wouldn't be able to go otherwise.

I received free tickets as well (I had given the original tix away to a friend downtown, who didn't leave his apartment during the G20). Rather than selling them off, I gave them away to co-workers this time and they had a blast, especially with the atmosphere.

It was mentioned before, but it might not be a half bad idea for TFC to sell the first game in the tourney at a discount to get people in the stands and hooked for later the group stage rounds (and hopefully much more later!).

Pachuco
07-29-2010, 10:51 AM
Toronto FC - 92% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Seattle Sounders - 47% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Los Angeles Galaxy - 34% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Feeebies or not, those numbers look pretty good for Toronto FC if you ask me. And there is no doubt that the crowd in attendance on Tuesday was one of the more engaged and racous crowds there has been at BMO Field in a while.

Seems to me like some of us are always drawn to try and find something to complain about. Last season by the way TFC drew 20,758 against Puerto Rico Islanders at home.

That game was part of our season tickets so it doesn't surprise me.

bgnewf
07-29-2010, 11:03 AM
That game was part of our season tickets so it doesn't surprise me.

Fair enough. Still I do not understand how anyone can call our crowds for the Champions League to date anything less than a successful number. No they were not sellouts but they were far and away better than two of the better supported MLS clubs (LA and Seattle) were.

koryo
07-29-2010, 11:32 AM
Does anyone know how well this tourney is attended / marketed in Mexico & the Carribean? It's just, you know, Jack Warner being Jack Warner (a petty, selfish thug) I wouldn't be half surprised if CONCACAF is consciously not promoting the tournament in the US & Canada.

There's probably nothing in it, I just assume that Warner has a hidden agenda in everything he does... because usually, he does.

JamboAl
07-30-2010, 12:33 PM
The crowds are horrid. There was about 700 for the Cruz Azul match in Panama and I saw attendance figures at another game as low as 250. Makes the almost 19,000 we got for Motagua and the Sounders crowd look unbelievably good.

Cas87
07-30-2010, 01:53 PM
I think its because the Central American and Caribbean teams are in pre-season when the qualifying happens, while the MLS teams are half way through (but that still doesn't account for the crappy attendence in LA)

(although I may be wrong)

SilverSamurai
07-30-2010, 05:37 PM
The crowds are horrid. There was about 700 for the Cruz Azul match in Panama and I saw attendance figures at another game as low as 250. Makes the almost 19,000 we got for Motagua and the Sounders crowd look unbelievably good.
+1.
Sadly terrible.
Wikipedia shows slightly better stats in the group stage, but so far TFC has the highest attendence by far.

TFCRegina
07-30-2010, 05:52 PM
+1.
Sadly terrible.
Wikipedia shows slightly better stats in the group stage, but so far TFC has the highest attendence by far.

Maybe if we're the only ones taking it seriously, we can get through to the Final.

Nothing says fun like Silverware! :scarf:

TFCRegina
07-30-2010, 05:55 PM
TFC should take a page from Fullham's Europa League run and offer the games at a deeply discoutned price.

Agreed.

How do you think Montreal got 55,551 at Olympic Stadium?

10 dollar tickets were the cheapest, 30 were the most expensive. Cut the ticket prices a bit and fill the stadium out each game. Sellout this year and it creates demand for the next year...just saying...

TFCRegina
07-30-2010, 06:03 PM
Also, TFC's high attendance (and Montreal's as well in the past) should be a signal to CONCACAF that we deserve a group round spot...

SilverSamurai
07-30-2010, 08:06 PM
Agreed.

How do you think Montreal got 55,551 at Olympic Stadium?

10 dollar tickets were the cheapest, 30 were the most expensive. Cut the ticket prices a bit and fill the stadium out each game. Sellout this year and it creates demand for the next year...just saying...
I would love TFC to play in Feb at Skydome. THeirs no reason why they shouldn't be able to fill it up.
Keep it cheap and then make up a ton of $$$ from alcohol and food sales.
WIN! :scarf::drinking:

gtaguy
07-30-2010, 09:10 PM
Toronto FC - 92% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Seattle Sounders - 47% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Los Angeles Galaxy - 34% of League attendance average watched the Champions League Game.

Feeebies or not, those numbers look pretty good for Toronto FC if you ask me. And there is no doubt that the crowd in attendance on Tuesday was one of the more engaged and racous crowds there has been at BMO Field in a while.

Seems to me like some of us are always drawn to try and find something to complain about. Last season by the way TFC drew 20,758 against Puerto Rico Islanders at home.

Toronto does not have a problem in attendance.. Our real problem is Marketing the games on the boobtube so those that don't attend have an easy disposition to watch this game on basic cable. Much like a Blue jay game is broadcast on basic channels. so does the tfc matches need to be aswell.. Although our soccer club has made inroads in the last 4 years there is still a way to go to attract mainstream attention.. this is not a "if you build it they will come mentality" this is more "if you broadcast it on a main channel they will watch" mentality...

SilverSamurai
07-31-2010, 11:29 AM
Toronto does not have a problem in attendance.. Our real problem is Marketing the games on the boobtube so those that don't attend have an easy disposition to watch this game on basic cable. Much like a Blue jay game is broadcast on basic channels. so does the tfc matches need to be aswell.. Although our soccer club has made inroads in the last 4 years there is still a way to go to attract mainstream attention.. this is not a "if you build it they will come mentality" this is more "if you broadcast it on a main channel they will watch" mentality...
Dude, CBC is the basic channel.
Everyone gets it!

Huyton
07-31-2010, 01:12 PM
I thought the CONCACAF game was on GOL TV, not the CBC.

I also thought that the tickets we got for the preliminary game will be the same tickets we'll get for the the group stage.

If that is indeed the case, then expect another raucaus crowd.

Any idea on the size of the crowd expected in Tegucigalpa on Tuesday? Be really nice if it's only a thousand or so.


As for North American fans not getting the Champions League, I suspect that is because normally winning the (NBA/NFL/MLB/NHL) championship is the end. Club teams never go on to play club teams from other countries, to determine a world champion. You never get to see how the sport is played when you use a different set of assumptions about the best way to play the game.

In soccer, though, this is normal.

Ah, well...they'll learn.

ilikemusic
07-31-2010, 01:55 PM
I would love TFC to play in Feb at Skydome. THeirs no reason why they shouldn't be able to fill it up.
Keep it cheap and then make up a ton of $$$ from alcohol and food sales.
WIN! :scarf::drinking:

Well there is one reason why they shouldnt be able to fill it up.

Knowing MLSE, theyre happy to gouge the people who do attend rather than attempt to fill a stadium with reasonable pricing.

sulfur
07-31-2010, 03:19 PM
The Champs League qualifiers are on GolTV. If the team makes it through to later stages, then CBC has some rights to show the matches. Not sure what the deal is, but there's something for them to be airing stuff.