WNBA draws more viewers than MLS on ESPN2!!!

[BayernTFC]

Ouch! :o


WNBA Up on ESPN2, Tops MLS (http://www.sportsmediawatch.net/2010/07/wnba-up-on-espn2-tops-mls.html)

Viewership has increased by double-digits for the WNBA on ESPN2, although that positive trend did not benefit the league's recent All-Star Game.

ESPN2 is averaging a 0.20 U.S. rating and 290,000 viewers for WNBA coverage, up 11% in ratings and 15% in viewership from last year (0.18, 253,000).

The 290,000 viewers for WNBA coverage actually tops the average for Major League Soccer on ESPN2 this season (251,000 through 14 games).

Despite the increased numbers this season, the WNBA All-Star Game suffered in the ratings. The game -- a 99-72 blowout of the WNBA All-Stars by Team USA -- drew a 0.34 U.S. rating and 429,000 viewers on ESPN July 10, down 15% and 17%, respectively, from last year's game on ABC (0.40, 519,000).

The All-Star Game attracted 388,000 households, the lowest total in the game's history. As recently as five years ago, the game drew over one million households.

http://www.sportsmediawatch.net/2010/07/wnba-up-on-espn2-tops-mls.html


Will ESPN drop MLS? I wonder if anyone at league headquarters will take responsibility?

[TFC07]

Ouch indeed.

But at least MLS has a chance to be popular in Canada.

[Hooligan69]

Weirdos just looking for a cheap wank.

[DichioTFC]

Fairness to MLS, ESPN viewership has gone down because 1. more promotional dollars spent by ESPN were invested in the World Cup than MLS (there are simply no ads promoting the MLS Game of the Week any more), and 2. more people are going to the games than watching them on TV (better economy, people have more money for tickets).

It's a bit of a mixed bag, but as long as MLS' stadium attendance stays up, that's the big factor.

[CretanBull]

It's a bit of a mixed bag, but as long as MLS' stadium attendance stays up, that's the big factor.

There's truth in that. The NHL has terrible TV numbers in America, but no one is worried about the future of the NHL - attendence is really good in the traditional markets and is fluctuating in the newer markets depending on how the local team is playing. While I wouldn't hold that up as ideal, it would solidify the sport in the mainstream...

[Wagner]

Apparently there is a lot of action on WNBA games because of the high level of certainty for the outcomes.
I would BET that that is part of the reason.

[Beach_Red]

Ouch indeed.

But at least MLS has a chance to be popular in Canada.

It will be interesting to see how this goes. The day may come when people feel that Canadian pro soccer is being held back by the American teams.

And I watched the NY-Connecticuit WNBA game this week and it was a lot better than many NBA games I've seen.

[BayernTFC]

Fairness to MLS, ESPN viewership has gone down because 1. more promotional dollars spent by ESPN were invested in the World Cup than MLS (there are simply no ads promoting the MLS Game of the Week any more), and 2. more people are going to the games than watching them on TV (better economy, people have more money for tickets).

It's a bit of a mixed bag, but as long as MLS' stadium attendance stays up, that's the big factor.
In fairness to MLS, their viewership hasn't really gone down. It's just been stagnant despite the fact that MLS should have a larger base to draw from because of the new teams added. For every home team, there is an away team. Apparently a significant number of Seattle Sounders viewers watch when their team plays away from home. In order to balance out, that's how many viewers the league has lost elsewhere. Not very inspiring. Perhaps that's why the league felt the needed star power like Thierry Henry?

[Carts]

Will ESPN drop MLS? I wonder if anyone at league headquarters will take responsibility?

If ESPN paid rights fees to the MLS it would be a concern...

But in reality, MLS purchases the airtime on ESPN - in doing so you get their promotion team behind you, and credibility...

With ESPN multiple avenues, there's plenty of room...

We're already seeing the same thing in Canada with TSN having TSN2, and SportsNet having their regional channels, and their new channel launching shortly...

More realestate on the digital lineup should keep everything on TV without too much worry...

The big question is what MLS teams draw 'locally' south of the border...

The reason, this is how the NFL is built, regional TV (now with national hosting)...

Yes they have their "marquee weekly matchup" in Monday Night Football (such a longtime success they've added Sunday, and sometimes Thursday) but the regional viewing is what built the league, as everyone watched 'their team' and local sponsors were able to jump in...

I know alot of people dislike him, but Garber is very media smart - the league is in good hands with him in that regard... Hopefully he can keep building and eventually find a 'kickstart' to lift the currently stagnant US TV numbers...

Thanks guys,
Carts...

[ilikemusic]

It will be interesting to see how this goes. The day may come when people feel that Canadian pro soccer is being held back by the American teams.

I remember Garber saying stuff about emulating the NHL's model in that it isnt too big in the US but it is huge in Canada. He seemed to imply he thinks MLS could be like that. A so-so following in the US and a huge following in Canada could be all the league needs to continue growing and improving.

[BayernTFC]

There's truth in that. The NHL has terrible TV numbers in America, but no one is worried about the future of the NHL - attendence is really good in the traditional markets and is fluctuating in the newer markets depending on how the local team is playing. While I wouldn't hold that up as ideal, it would solidify the sport in the mainstream...
It's interesting that you mention the NHL because Tom Hayden from ATF mentions that there are big problems with MLS viewership on Fox Soccer Channel as well and he suggests that the MLS should adopt an NHL solution:


As many of you know, the contract between MLS and FSC is about to expire. MLS is currently in discussions with both FSC and Versus to see who wants the rights to the potentially lucrative MLS Game of the Week on Saturday nights. You may be surprised to hear this, but I think that FSC should let MLS go to Versus. The reason for this is there is a bigger fish out there; a lucrative market that has not been tapped here in the United States and could perhaps bring in a ratings and financial windfall for the Fox owned station. That fish is FMF.

Now, you might be thinking, why should MLS and Versus become business partners? The reasons are simple. FSC has always treated MLS as the red-headed stepchild. It is right now the 3rd choice league for FSC behind the English Premier League and Italy’s Serie A. I think FSC could care either way whether they keep the rights to MLS or not. Thus, I think it is time for a clean break for MLS. This is where Versus comes into play. Versus treats all of their products and licenses like gold. If you do not believe me, go ahead and switch over to Versus and see their Tour de France, NHL, and MMA coverage. It is top notch entertainment with great production and bright, intelligent announcers and hosts. They would know how to treat MLS with the respect that the league deserves, with a quality pregame show, plenty of news and notes, and announcers who know the sport and can give it the proper respect it deserves. They will also market the hell out of MLS and use their other shows and create new shows to hype up their product. For example, during the NHL playoffs, they will advertise profusely about the MLS game of the week and vice versa so that with the cross advertising both sports can attract new audiences and potentially new markets in which to get more money.
http://www.atfooty.com/?p=812


It's an interesting read imo, and could be of interest to fans of the Mexican Football Federation also.

[BayernTFC]

And I watched the NY-Connecticuit WNBA game this week and it was a lot better than many NBA games I've seen.
Did you watch WNBA before, or are you one the growing numbers? Do you regularly watch basketball? I'm just curious and would find your answers interesting in the context of this discussion.

[Pawel]

If ESPN paid rights fees to the MLS it would be a concern...

But in reality, MLS purchases the airtime on ESPN - in doing so you get their promotion team behind you, and credibility...

With ESPN multiple avenues, there's plenty of room...

We're already seeing the same thing in Canada with TSN having TSN2, and SportsNet having their regional channels, and their new channel launching shortly...

More realestate on the digital lineup should keep everything on TV without too much worry...

The big question is what MLS teams draw 'locally' south of the border...

The reason, this is how the NFL is built, regional TV (now with national hosting)...

Yes they have their "marquee weekly matchup" in Monday Night Football (such a longtime success they've added Sunday, and sometimes Thursday) but the regional viewing is what built the league, as everyone watched 'their team' and local sponsors were able to jump in...

I know alot of people dislike him, but Garber is very media smart - the league is in good hands with him in that regard... Hopefully he can keep building and eventually find a 'kickstart' to lift the currently stagnant US TV numbers...

Thanks guys,
Carts...

Ugh, ESPN does pay rights fees to MLS, MLS does not buy air time.

And I don't think those numbers include ESPN Deportes which shows MLS games, you would have to combine the two.

[Beach_Red]

Did you watch WNBA before, or are you one the growing numbers? Do you regularly watch basketball? I'm just curious and would find your answers interesting in the context of this discussion.


I didn't watch before. I've been to half a dozen Raptors games but didn't really get into it and never watched much NBA on TV (it always seems like there's far more drama off the court than on). I watch Olympic basketball and will probably watch the World Championship games.

And as for Garber's talk about MLS being like the NHL, I think that's too bad.

There is a lot less competion for sports interest in Canada and soccer could do very well here. I'd rather see a TFC-Calgary game than TFC-Columbus or TFC-Kansas City. With only one MLB and NBA team in Canada and no NFL the country is ready for another national sport. I've said it before, but a soccer league in Canada that looks like the CFL (say 10 teams in a top division), with $4.5 million payrolls could be a great league and would probably do well in CONCACAF.

[BayernTFC]

But in reality, MLS purchases the airtime on ESPN - in doing so you get their promotion team behind you, and credibility...
MLS purchases the airtime from ESPN??? That's pretty pathetic. It's not television revenue, it's an advertising expense...


With ESPN multiple avenues, there's plenty of room...
As long as MLS pays enough to advertise, I'm sure ESPN doesn't care how many people watch with all that programming space available.


We're already seeing the same thing in Canada with TSN having TSN2, and SportsNet having their regional channels, and their new channel launching shortly...
Tell me about it. I cancelled cable. So many channels and nothing but garbage. I built a HDTV antenna and I get all the channels I need for free now. The internet is so much better anyways. Anything I want from anywhere around the world.


More realestate on the digital lineup should keep everything on TV without too much worry...
Except the tricky little question of is anyone watching?


The big question is what MLS teams draw 'locally' south of the border...
Viewers are viewers. MLS can't afford to be choosy right now. If Philadelphia fans will watch their team travel the nation, maybe they're better for advertisers?


The reason, this is how the NFL is built, regional TV (now with national hosting)...

Yes they have their "marquee weekly matchup" in Monday Night Football (such a longtime success they've added Sunday, and sometimes Thursday) but the regional viewing is what built the league, as everyone watched 'their team' and local sponsors were able to jump in...
MLS is not the NFL. Fußball is not throwball. Who cares what the NFL did or is doing?


I know alot of people dislike him, but Garber is very media smart - the league is in good hands with him in that regard... Hopefully he can keep building and eventually find a 'kickstart' to lift the currently stagnant US TV numbers...
It's a good thing we've got these media-savvy types with no background in the actual sport in the lead. They're great at buying themselves time, but not much else. Perhaps it's those attributes that inspire some to believe despite the continued lack of results? No, no, you're right. Garber will lead everyone to the promised land. He just needs more time. I mean Gary Bettman has had almost two decades at the helm of the NHL, and the NHL is doing great! It hasn't regressed at all and I still bother to watch the NHL too. No, really.

[BayernTFC]

And I don't think those numbers include ESPN Deportes which shows MLS games, you would have to combine the two.
Why would they? The numbers are for ESPN2. The comparison is for one channel, ESPN2. Are WNBA games televised on ESPN Deportes? I'm sure a thread for total viewership could be started.

[Rudi]

MLS purchases the airtime from ESPN???
They used to. That is not the case any more, and hasn't been for a few years now.

[BayernTFC]

I didn't watch before. I've been to half a dozen Raptors games but didn't really get into it and never watched much NBA on TV (it always seems like there's far more drama off the court than on). I watch Olympic basketball and will probably watch the World Championship games.
Wrestling does a better job of that too. I can't stand basketball and I never watch it. I was once given a Raptors ticket a long time ago and I did attend. I was tempted to ask for a refund...



And as for Garber's talk about MLS being like the NHL, I think that's too bad.

There is a lot less competion for sports interest in Canada and soccer could do very well here. I'd rather see a TFC-Calgary game than TFC-Columbus or TFC-Kansas City. With only one MLB and NBA team in Canada and no NFL the country is ready for another national sport. I've said it before, but a soccer league in Canada that looks like the CFL (say 10 teams in a top division), with $4.5 million payrolls could be a great league and would probably do well in CONCACAF.
I think Garber would be better suited to run Disneyland. I think that you have a convert. I don't care about KC, Dallas, San Jose, etc. Give me Hamilton, Waterloo, Ottawa, Calgary, Halifax, Saskatoon, etc. I think that you are on to something that I would absolutely love to see happen.

[TFC USA]

If you're looking to the WNBA as a cheap wank then you might as well crack one off to Olympic weightlifting.

Wanna know why MLS gets shitty ratings? Not only is the league not marketable (that's why they sign these over-the-hill players) but they have some fucking insane kickoff times. Who the hell would watch an MLS game at 10:30 on a Thursday night? They need more weekend matches, preferably an afternoon game so you get more people watching.

[Pawel]

Why would they? The numbers are for ESPN2. The comparison is for one channel, ESPN2. Are WNBA games televised on ESPN Deportes? I'm sure a thread for total viewership could be started.

Well, if you have to split your viewership over more channels the amount for one one channel will be less, even though ESPN probably does pay two rights fees, one for each channel.

[BayernTFC]

If you're looking to the WNBA as a cheap wank then you might as well crack one off to Olympic weightlifting.
I laughed out loud over that comment. Thanks for that.


Wanna know why MLS gets shitty ratings? Not only is the league not marketable (that's why they sign these over-the-hill players)
I tend to agree. Certainly while MLS is under its current management and with its current direction. There is no reason why MLS can't do better. The reality is that MLS should be doing better than it is right now.


but they have some fucking insane kickoff times. Who the hell would watch an MLS game at 10:30 on a Thursday night? They need more weekend matches, preferably an afternoon game so you get more people watching.
If you love your team, you'll find ways to watch. Afternoon games over the weekend do happen, and ratings are still poor. I see lots of empty seats during weekend afternoon games too.

[BayernTFC]

Well, if you have to split your viewership over more channels the amount for one one channel will be less, even though ESPN probably does pay two rights fees, one for each channel.
Welcome to the world of television in the 21st century. ESPN2 does exist. The numbers provided were for ESPN2. The fact is that on ESPN2, WNBA averages more viewers than MLS does. MLS may or may not actually get paid to air games on that station. Perhaps it is of some importance to the managers of ESPN2 to track the performance of such programming? Start a thread on overall television ratings for MLS if you want to. We can follow you over their to discuss them.

[TFC USA]

There are rumors that FSC could lose their MLS rights to Versus, which is an American sports channel on cable. It's sort of a poor man's ESPN that does a lousy job with the NHL.

If we can get more MLS on cable then I think it's a positive, compared to FSC or GolTV Canada which you have to pay for.

[Carts]

As long as MLS pays enough to advertise, I'm sure ESPN doesn't care how many people watch with all that programming space available.

MLS is not the NFL. Fußball is not throwball. Who cares what the NFL did or is doing?



As for ESPN... They do care about actual viewership (care about money more of course LOL), even if a buyer is purchasing the rights / airtime / promotion... Also, if your viewership is low, someone can come in that will bring them more money - so ratings are a concern...

Which is why you see the secondary channels etc taking up the smaller properties...

As for the NFL, in regards to marketing in the states, nobody does it better...

I completely agree with you in regards to the sports, totally different, even in the actual broadcasting of the sport - but there is a similarity, and the common demominator is "Americans watching TV", learning from other leagues mistakes and success is good business...

I definitely think the MLS folks learned from NHL expansion. Gary Bettman seemed to think "expand expand expand, I need the expansion fees" and now he has teams in tough shape...

I think the league is showing slow, controlled growth. I wish it was more - but I think that would be wishfull thinking on my part...

Its always interesting when these numbers figures come out, and generates interesting discussion as well, which is great...

Thanks guys,
Carts...

[Beach_Red]

MLS is not the NFL. Fußball is not throwball. Who cares what the NFL did or is doing?




The only reason to look at what the NFL did is because it was once an obscure regional league, kind of like MLS. The New York Jets once drew fewer fans than the Red Bulls do now and the NFL had to buy TV time as well (Monday Night Football was pretty much an infomercial when it started).

What the NFL had to build on was the popularity of college football, and what MLS has to buld on is the popularity of international soccer. It'll happen.

[BayernTFC]

As for the NFL, in regards to marketing in the states, nobody does it better...
I'd prefer the NCAA throwball model. In the US, nobody understands it better than the NCAA.



I completely agree with you in regards to the sports, totally different, even in the actual broadcasting of the sport - but there is a similarity, and the common demominator is "Americans watching TV", learning from other leagues mistakes and success is good business...
Maybe not the most apt of analogies, but their is only so much a motorcycle manufacturer can learn from an automobile manufacturer. I understand what your argument is, but I think it is a huge mistake for any NA soccer league to try to emulate the NFL. American Idol is successful at grabbing American viewers. Why not emulate them?


I definitely think the MLS folks learned from NHL expansion. Gary Bettman seemed to think "expand expand expand, I need the expansion fees" and now he has teams in tough shape...
I think this is a case of two different people seeing two different things. I see Garber doing exactly what Bettman has done. Garber appeared to me to be racing against the clock to try and expand as much as he could before the 2010 World Cup ended and prices were still high. The jury is still out on the expansion teams, but some MLS teams continue to struggle.


I think the league is showing slow, controlled growth. I wish it was more - but I think that would be wishfull thinking on my part...
Just attendance and television ratings remain stagnant despite adding teams and supposedly increasing reach. So far the same pie has had to be sliced more ways.


Its always interesting when these numbers figures come out, and generates interesting discussion as well, which is great...
Agreed. I have enjoyed this discussion. Thanks.

[J .]

I dont mind, basketball is a big draw in the US. I dont mind what we have now. Its entertaining to watch and the quality of the league is improving. If the quality of the broadcasts went up I am sure the average tv viewer may catch a little more. But soccer is not what many in the US are accostomed to watching. They prefer set piece sports ala football, baseball and basketball that more fluid games.

[BayernTFC]

There are rumors that FSC could lose their MLS rights to Versus, which is an American sports channel on cable. It's sort of a poor man's ESPN that does a lousy job with the NHL.

If we can get more MLS on cable then I think it's a positive, compared to FSC or GolTV Canada which you have to pay for.
See my 3rd post in this thread (post #11). I think it would be more of a case of FSC not wanting MLS rather than them losing anything. FSC averages about 53,000 viewers per match:


Fox Soccer Channel's MLS games average about 53,000 viewers
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand-tv/2010-07-20-soccer-viewership_N.htm

[BayernTFC]

The only reason to look at what the NFL did is because it was once an obscure regional league, kind of like MLS. The New York Jets once drew fewer fans than the Red Bulls do now and the NFL had to buy TV time as well (Monday Night Football was pretty much an infomercial when it started).

What the NFL had to build on was the popularity of college football, and what MLS has to buld on is the popularity of international soccer. It'll happen.
The path that the NFL took is not available to MLS. More options are available to people and competition for eyes is fierce. Television has changed. Follow the NFL model at your peril. The NFL model is all that Garber knows. That is why that media-savvy guy sells it.

[Heart of Stone]

Toronto would be a great market for a WNBA team ... especially if Bill Lambeer and Rick Mahorn are the coaches.... they could play out of the Richoh ... would draw better than the Marlies.

[deltox]

^are you sure?

[LesH]

The day may come when people feel that Canadian pro soccer is being held back by the American teams.

Sorry to sound negative, but IMO there are high chances for this to happen.

[Macksam]

There's truth in that. The NHL has terrible TV numbers in America, but no one is worried about the future of the NHL - attendence is really good in the traditional markets and is fluctuating in the newer markets depending on how the local team is playing. While I wouldn't hold that up as ideal, it would solidify the sport in the mainstream...
That's because the NHL can still bring in huge TV numbers when the time calls for it.

There are rumors that FSC could lose their MLS rights to Versus, which is an American sports channel on cable. It's sort of a poor man's ESPN that does a lousy job with the NHL.

If we can get more MLS on cable then I think it's a positive, compared to FSC or GolTV Canada which you have to pay for.
No, Versus actually does a great job with the NHL. They treat the league very well. If you ask most people NHL fans, they don't want the NHL to go back to ESPN.