We Need to Re-Think What a 'DP' Is

[James17930]

I know many will disagree with me (just try to keep the discussion civil).

I'm getting a little annoyed with the constant criticism levelled at JDG. To my eye, he has without a doubt been one of our best players so far this season (of course he's had bad moments here and there, but I'm talking overall). We're a better team with him on the field, and to me, that's all that matters.

But so many people are saying things like "He's not good enough for a DP," or "as a DP, he should be doing better." But if you stop to think about it, what does that really mean? How does one rate the worthiness of a DP (other than goal-rate for a striker)? Especially JDG -- he's a holding/distributing midfielder . . . do you have to break down his every move -- how many balls he wins, how many passes he completes -- and decide what ratio you think is acceptable? That would obviously be a bit ridiculous.

So here's my proposal:

A DP should be considered a success if he's the best player available to you at that position.

We cannot realistically sign a Michael Essien or a Michael Ballack, therefore, JDG should not be compared to or held up to that sort of standard. JDG is by far the best player available to us at that position, and I think we're lucky to have him. It's not his job to score goals, so he should never be judged by that. And he's not going to complete 100% of his passes, so just because he misses one or two, people shouldn't jump all over him. But if you actually look at the way we pass the ball around with him on the field as opposed to when he isn't, you'll see we're definitely not as good a team without him.

Another point: with three DP slots now available to each club, we have to stop thinking of the DP as a 'monolithic' thing. We definitely need to allow for more variety in our thinking. For example, you can have DPs like:

-- A defensive-minded player, who has had experience in Europe (or wherever), whom you need to pay more because of that experience, but not millions, so you sign him as a DP for around $800k. He provides good, solid defending, but he's no Ashley Cole (but you can't expect him to be), but he does what you want him to.

-- A guy like JDG, whom you want for many reasons (the exp, plus great ball skills, plus Canadian) etc, and you pay him around 1.5 mil. His worthiness is a combination of what he brings on the field plus some marketing stuff plus other intangibles.

-- Thierry Henry, David Beckham etc.

People shouldn't complain that JDG isn't one of that third category, and people shouldn't complain about how much a DP gets paid, because, at the end of the day, all that should matter to the supporters is how much it counts against the cap; everything above that -- whether it's an extra 400k or an extra 2 mil -- is the FO's money, and doesn't affect us in the least. So we should never say 'he's not earning that 1.5 mil.' All we need to care about is, 'is he earning the 400k against the cap?'

I would argue that so far, JDG is, and will continue to do so more and more in the coming years once we get those few other players we need to truly be a contending team.

[Yohan]

without going into value of DP debate, JDG is not even the best DM in the league. Shalrie Joseph is. even Osvaldo Alonso is better than JDG

[profit89]

JDG is fantastic but he needs some help. We need another DP, an out-and-out striker, like an Inzaghi.

[bigtfcfan]

I think JDG is a fantastic player for us. Anyone who doesn't see that he is head and shoulders above TFC and MLS is clearly blind.

[__wowza]

he's not worth the DP money or slot, he really isn't.
no need to re-think anything.

[DreFuss]

Does anyone else support the idea of using our third DP slot strategically, giving DeRo some extra dosh and lowering the cap hit that he makes?

[James17930]

Does anyone else support the idea of using our third DP slot strategically, giving DeRo some extra dosh and lowering the cap hit that he makes?

Yes -- but we'd need a second DP first.

[Carts]

I think JDG is a fantastic player for us. Anyone who doesn't see that he is head and shoulders above TFC and MLS is clearly blind.

Fantastic player - yup....

But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

Carts...

[H Bomb]

I kinda see this as the prototype for drinking the koolaid. We have to change our outlook on dp's to match the level that our dp is playing at. Why dont we, instead, stop making excuses for our players and the level of mediocrity we see on a regular basis.

[James17930]

Fantastic player - yup....

But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

Carts...

I get what you're saying, but I don't think your logic is fully sound. He had stated he wanted to stay in Spain, but couldn't get any offers in Spain; but, we don't know how many offers he got from elsewhere in Europe that he turned down. Who knows -- maybe lots of clubs were interested but he didn't want to play there or they didn't offer him enough money.

[T0R0NT0 FC]

Fantastic player - yup....

But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

Carts...


Firstly, JDG hasn't been playing his normal CDM role for our team. Secondly, when most of the players around you are "MLS calibre" what do you expect the guy to do? He is a CDM not a goal scorer. Third, umm... did you forget that he played in Spain for many years and he played quite well there?

Everyone LOVES DeRo and thinks he's the greatest player ever. Ya, he is good for MLS, but JDG is a better overall player than DeRo. Which is why no one outside of the MLS wants DeRo. DeRo just pots a goal here or there which is why everyone loves him. But even just looking at last game, JDG was better than DeRo.

[Cadaren]

I agreed with Toronto FC, JDG is a CDM not a goal scorer, just look at the amount of goals scored on us last year compared to this year.

[Mikey]

I dont think he should be getting the DP money...Dero should, and every week it's the same.

[Pookie]

Bigger issue for me is whether we add a second DP and the impact that has on De Rosario.

[Carts]

Firstly, JDG hasn't been playing his normal CDM role for our team. Secondly, when most of the players around you are "MLS calibre" what do you expect the guy to do? He is a CDM not a goal scorer. Third, umm... did you forget that he played in Spain for many years and he played quite well there?

Everyone LOVES DeRo and thinks he's the greatest player ever. Ya, he is good for MLS, but JDG is a better overall player than DeRo. Which is why no one outside of the MLS wants DeRo. DeRo just pots a goal here or there which is why everyone loves him. But even just looking at last game, JDG was better than DeRo.

I don't know why you quoted me and go on the 'not scoring goals' rant, as I know he's a CDM, and I don't expect him to score... So basically WTF? to that...

Second, I responded to a guy who said that anyone who doesn't see he is clearly above the MLS is blind - well, there are 1000's of blind manager b/c 1000's of teams in higher leagues didn't offer him a spot...

Third, I clearly said he's a fantastic player - which he is...

I will say this. GOOD players play as well as the teammates around them. GREAT players make the players around them better and shine. At times we see this from JDG, I wish it was all the time - but that is no easy task...

He's working hard, his effort and passion are there this year - we're allowing less goals and are a better club, and he is part of the reason for that...

Carts...

[James17930]

I kinda see this as the prototype for drinking the koolaid. We have to change our outlook on dp's to match the level that our dp is playing at. Why dont we, instead, stop making excuses for our players and the level of mediocrity we see on a regular basis.


I never said that. What I said was, our DP is a 'mid-level' DP. Whether we should go out and try to get a Henry-type superstar is another debate.

[T0R0NT0 FC]

I don't know why you quoted me and go on the 'not scoring goals' rant, as I know he's a CDM, and I don't expect him to score... So basically WTF? to that...

Second, I responded to a guy who said that anyone who doesn't see he is clearly above the MLS is blind - well, there are 1000's of blind manager b/c 1000's of teams in higher leagues didn't offer him a spot...

Third, I clearly said he's a fantastic player - which he is...

I will say this. GOOD players play as well as the teammates around them. GREAT players make the players around them better and shine. At times we see this from JDG, I wish it was all the time - but that is no easy task...

He's working hard, his effort and passion are there this year - we're allowing less goals and are a better club, and he is part of the reason for that...

Carts...

Hmm... maybe I jumped into the conversation without reading more than a few posts. My bad. :o

[T0R0NT0 FC]

I dont think he should be getting the DP money...Dero should, and every week it's the same.


DeRo is an MLS level good player, JDG is an any league good player. That is why.

[SilverSamurai]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think your logic is fully sound. He had stated he wanted to stay in Spain, but couldn't get any offers in Spain; but, we don't know how many offers he got from elsewhere in Europe that he turned down. Who knows -- maybe lots of clubs were interested but he didn't want to play there or they didn't offer him enough money.
People also forget WHY JDG wasn't resigned.

2 main reasons.
1- He spoke out against Deportive because of unpaid wages. Rumours were that it was in the $1 million range. Or maybe €1 million? In any case not exactly pocket change.
2- He doesn't have an EU passport. Teams have only so many international slots.

[KdotOdot]

Everyone knows you need 2 dudes for a true DP.

/thread

[Dirk Diggler]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but after watching last night's game, I am completely confident that my criticism for JDG for the majority of the games this season were completely valid. To the people who constantly keep on saying that he has been playing excellent all season, I really do not know what games you guys are watching. He played very well last night (until he was sent off) ... there was a massive difference between how he played last night and how he plays usually.

He was putting in a heck a lot of effort. His movement off the ball was excellent. He was stringing together some tremendous passes without giving the ball away cheaply. He was winning balls quite competently on defence. In short, he was playing exactly how we all expected he would play all season. It is quite sad that he only played like this 3-4 times. He should be doing that game in, game out.

[ManUtd4ever]

If JDG can play the rest of the season the way he played last night prior to being sent off, I have no issues with him earning a DP salary...

[jloome]

without going into value of DP debate, JDG is not even the best DM in the league. Shalrie Joseph is. even Osvaldo Alonso is better than JDG

Uh, you evidently haven't watched either Joseph or Alonso this season, as they're both having absolutely crap seasons (although Joseph's got a reason.)

Not disagreeing necessarily that Joseph's the league's best Yo, but DeGuzman is a class above Alonso, day in and out.

Is he the best we could get at that position? Probably, yeah

[ecospice]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but after watching last night's game, I am completely confident that my criticism for JDG for the majority of the games this season were completely valid. To the people who constantly keep on saying that he has been playing excellent all season, I really do not know what games you guys are watching. He played very well last night (until he was sent off) ... there was a massive difference between how he played last night and how he plays usually.

He was putting in a heck a lot of effort. His movement off the ball was excellent. He was stringing together some tremendous passes without giving the ball away cheaply. He was winning balls quite competently on defence. In short, he was playing exactly how we all expected he would play all season. It is quite sad that he only played like this 3-4 times. He should be doing that game in, game out.

Well, he is basically over his hamstring injury which, pardon the pun, likely hamstrung his ability to go all out for us in the last few games.

I think he is the team's best player.

[James17930]

Plus -- people also have to remember that JDG has still only played less than 20 games in this league.

I mean, he's still in the process of getting truly warmed up to MLS.

[sulfur]

Uh, you evidently haven't watched either Joseph or Alonso this season, as they're both having absolutely crap seasons (although Joseph's got a reason.)
Joseph's reason is that he had a joint and got caught. :)

[Pachuco]

James, your point will never fly in a salary capped league. If you aren't pulling your own weight (weight is relative to your salary compared to how you perform on the field) then you will always be criticized. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't expect to make a large % of a team's salary and not be criticized when you are consistently out played by guys making peanuts.

Dero
Nana
Cann
Frei

Are all much more important players to this team then JDG is. We've played quite well with JDG off the pitch but I'd be scared to see how we'd play with a missing Cann or Nana. Oh wait, rewind to the beginning of the season. Don't think I need to say any more.

[James17930]

^Okay, that's a fair point, but the salary cap keeps going up, while the DP cap hit stays the same. Also, as long as JDG's cap hit doesn't directly prevent us from signing other players, then this shouldn't be an issue.

[Blizzard]

Fantastic player - yup....

But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

Carts...

So Carts, are you saying that the only reason we have any players at all is that every other manager in the world rejected all of them? ;)

[TFC 420]

^Okay, that's a fair point, but the salary cap keeps going up, while the DP cap hit stays the same. Also, as long as JDG's cap hit doesn't directly prevent us from signing other players, then this shouldn't be an issue.
Actually the cap hit for a DP was droped from $430,000 to $330,000 in the new CBA. So teams can have 3 DP salaries for about $1 million towards the cap.

[Blizzard]

^Okay, that's a fair point, but the salary cap keeps going up, while the DP cap hit stays the same. Also, as long as JDG's cap hit doesn't directly prevent us from signing other players, then this shouldn't be an issue.

Technically it didn't of course as the DP Cap Hit dropped to $335k this year. Sure it effects what we can do but heck, we are going to have a second DP on the team within weeks (at a $167.5k cap hit) and there are sill rumours of other moves (though not necessarilly a 3rd DP). Mo has room with which to work.

I do agree with you about JDG. AFAIC, JDG is the best player on this team (and was the best player on either team last night) especially now that DeRo is struggling. I think we can expect more than one good goal scoring opportunity from him but last night that's all we got.

[James17930]

Actually the cap hit for a DP was droped from $430,000 to $330,000 in the new CBA. So teams can have 3 DP salaries for about $1 million towards the cap.

Even better.

[Blizzard]

Even better.

Actually it is $335k or $167.5k for a half season which I'm guessing will be Mista's salary cap hit.

[James17930]

Even even better.

But is Mista 100% confirmed (as much as is possible)?

[rocker]

But is Mista 100% confirmed (as much as is possible)?

it's gotta be 99%, as he was sitting a few rows behind me last night.

[Canary Canuck]

Fantastic player - yup....

But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

Carts...

From JDG's own mouth he said Espanyol, Osasuna and Almeria and several other clubs wanted to sign him but didn't have any non-EU roster slots left (most leagues in Europe including spain have a limit of 3 non-EU players per team). It's not as simple as being good enough. JDG is still highly regarded in Spain. He won player of the year for Depor, a MOTM award against Real Madrid, several La Liga Best XI team of the month awards. If he had an EU passport he'd still be in spain.

[Blizzard]

it's gotta be 99%, as he was sitting a few rows behind me last night.

I honestly thought we'd hear something yesterday. The rumour I've heard is that the delay is administrative with the league and the international transfer certificate or whatever they call it.

[James17930]

I guess FIFA's too busy with that whole World Cup thing going on to do their everyday paperwork ;)

[Heathen]

JDG doesn't want to be here, end of story. If any Spanish club had offered him a multi-year deal (which supposedly would have allowed him to get Spanish citizenship and thus became an EU player) he'd have bitten their hands off. As it was he got a one year offer from Espanyol. I feel sorry for him he's not suited to this league and his abilities will never benefit TFC enough to justify the salary.

[James Oliphant]

I guess FIFA's too busy with that whole World Cup thing going on to do their everyday paperwork ;)

MLS summer transfer window opens July 15.

[Nodoubtguy]

MLS summer transfer window opens July 15.

RBNY are announcing their DP on the 14th so I expect our announcement to come around the same time

[Roogsy]

without going into value of DP debate, JDG is not even the best DM in the league. Shalrie Joseph is. even Osvaldo Alonso is better than JDG

Not sure I agree completely. The all bring different elements to he role. But certainly I do agree that the price disparity makes Joseph and Alonso much better values for the money than JDG.

In my opinion, we wasted the opportunity to bring a real impact player. A winger or striker is where the first DP should have gone.

[Bars92]

alright, where's Dickov?

[Rudi]

Not sure I agree completely. The all bring different elements to he role. But certainly I do agree that the price disparity makes Joseph and Alonso much better values for the money than JDG.
I believe that with under new rules, Shalrie Joseph is a bigger salary cap hit than JDG. DeRo is too, for that matter.

Alonso is having a terrible year IMO, but that's neither here nor there.

[Shakes McQueen]

without going into value of DP debate, JDG is not even the best DM in the league. Shalrie Joseph is. even Osvaldo Alonso is better than JDG

Osvaldo Alonso had a pretty good season last year, but he has been dreadful this year.

- Scott

[Toronto_Bhoy]

I don't really care if "this guy on Team A is better or the other guy on Team C is better" than JDG.

What is my DP doing for me? IMO, he has to be you club's best player week in, week out...DeGuzman, clearly is not TFC's best and most valuable player.

Someone refresh my memory...what is our record without JDG in the lineup?

[Carts]

I find this very interesting... From the Toronto FC's own site, they refer to JDG in the following way in today's article...

"...can likely look forward to a multi-game suspension to its most expensive player..."

Team websites are always (for good reason) bias, over positive, and "pro" their own side. But DeGuzman is now being referred to with his pricetag...

It may seem like nothing, but really its not...

This could have been written:

"...can likely look forward to a multi-game suspension to its star midfielder..."

"...can likely look forward to a multi-game suspension to its experience international star player..."

"...can likely look forward to a multi-game suspension to its highly skilled defensive midfielder..."

Instead, the pricetag was written, approved, and published...

In a company like MLSE, who keep an eye on everything, and will review and approve everything - its little things like this that lead you to beleive they are lossing their faith in the money they're spending, and putting pressure on JDG to starting making a bigger impact...

For us fans, JDG costs $400k (b/c that's the cap hit), for MLSE JDG costs the $3m (or whatever the exact deal was) as that is what's out of their wallet...

In my opinion, the boys writing the pay cheques probably think they aren't getting enough bang for their buck - that's where they need to have faith in the actual football people to express the impact, role, and performance each player has on the team as a whole...

Carts...

[jvanpeebles]

The amount of money between him being DP and his wages now really are not that different when applied towards the cap. That is what we should be looking at. We are clearly a different team without him and should sign him long term. Anybody who thinks we would be where we are without him is fooling themselves. I say lock him up long term and let him retire from TFC down the road.
In the short term lets find somebody to help him and in turn put us over that hump that we have been fighting since the teams inception.

[Dirk Diggler]

Now see it is posts like this that I don't understand. What are you guys seeing in him that leads you to believe that we wouldn't be where we are today without him? I can get it if someone was making that claim about Dero but seriously ... JDG?

Also, he has ambitions of playing in Europe once more ... he is not going to want to sign some super long term extension with TFC.

[jvanpeebles]

my mistake. I was jumping between posts and was rewfering to DERO.
cheers,
jeff

[P-NUTZ]

i think JDG has 2 big problems:

1. He is trying too hard and getting injured or overzealous while overplaying the average ball. He is not relaxed and taking over games as i believe his skill set could allow. Much of this because he knows people are watching him, looking for him to make the difference and thinking about his salary and he's struggling under that pressure.

2. He needs better players, along that middle line especially, to play with. Sanyang and Peterson are not strong enough starters to bring the best out of him game in and game out. Add starters Garcia and OBW lately to make that situation harder.

[Oldtimer]

2. He needs better players, along that middle line especially, to play with. Sanyang and Peterson are not strong enough starters to bring the best out of him game in and game out. Add starters Garcia and OBW lately to make that situation harder.

I think that's the biggest one. So many times, I've seen him pass into space, however, his lower-quality team-mates fail to read the play, and then an opposition player scoops it, making it look like JDG has given away the ball.

Sad to say, but he would have had a massive positive impact on a team like LA.

TFC? Not as much.

[sweetlemon69]

100% agree with OP. Everyone else is LOL.

[James17930]

I think that's the biggest one. So many times, I've seen him pass into space, however, his lower-quality team-mates fail to read the play, and then an opposition player scoops it, making it look like JDG has given away the ball.

Sad to say, but he would have had a massive positive impact on a team like LA.

TFC? Not as much.

That is so true.

But then doesn't stuff like that also come down to tactics and strategy, and is worked out on the training ground?

[Oldtimer]

That is so true.

But then doesn't stuff like that also come down to tactics and strategy, and is worked out on the training ground?

One would think, but having coached myself (at a youth level), you can only work with what you are given. Some players instinctively have very good football sense, many can be trained to have decent football sense, and others are just going to be behind no matter what the coach does. It applies at the youth level, but also on a higher level in the pro game.

In MLS, the roster restrictions and salary cap conspire to guarantee you at least some sub-par players. If you have a GM who mismanages the cap (ie. MoJo), it makes things that much harder for the coaching staff.

[James17930]

I remember Cummins (or maybe Carver) saying similar things last year -- that some of the players just did not have basic football sense so he couldn't do anything with them.