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J .
06-05-2010, 05:07 PM
This guy is the worst official of any sports that have ever taken place in the history of humanity.

I fucking hate this guy.

WestStandGeoff
06-05-2010, 05:08 PM
That guy reminds me of a few refs from my men's league matches. At least I expect it in a rec league...

TheKing7
06-05-2010, 05:17 PM
This man is literally from middle earth.

Shakes McQueen
06-05-2010, 05:18 PM
He was atrocious in the first half, but thankfully was pretty invisible in the second half, aside from the deserved sending off of Rocastle.

He shouldn't be allowed near a soccer field, ans especially shouldn't be allowed near BMO Field. Seems to have an axe to grind with our team every time he comes to town - at least until you look at his red card record, and realize he's like this EVERYWHERE.

41 red cards in 96 games is ridiculous.

- Scott

Nerepis
06-05-2010, 05:20 PM
Every game I watch with this guy in it fills me with dread...and he seldom exceeds my very, very poor expectations.

pekduck
06-05-2010, 05:32 PM
Why USSF still keeps his referee license is beyond reasoning...

pekduck
06-05-2010, 05:35 PM
fuck me... USSF is screwed...

Toledo is only one out of the 3 Grade 1 Referee they have in entire US Soccer... :facepalm:

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/Events/Winter-Showcase-09/Winter-Showcase-Home/Referees/Quick-Facts.aspx

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/Events/Winter-Showcase-09/Winter-Showcase-Home/Referees.aspx

ForestGlade
06-05-2010, 05:48 PM
This guy is the worst official of any sports that have ever taken place in the history of humanity.

I fucking hate this guy.

Jim Joyce on Line 2 for you

TFCRegina
06-05-2010, 06:09 PM
Writing something on it later tonight on MLS Talk.

Gixmo
06-05-2010, 06:18 PM
fuck me... USSF is screwed...

Toledo is only one out of the 3 Grade 1 Referee they have in entire US Soccer... :facepalm:

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/Events/Winter-Showcase-09/Winter-Showcase-Home/Referees/Quick-Facts.aspx

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Development-Academy/Events/Winter-Showcase-09/Winter-Showcase-Home/Referees.aspx

Ya, and Salazar is a wank as well.

Vaughan isn't too bad... but yes, Weak weak weak shit in the US when it comes to officials...

.... You should see Canada's officials.. Yikes.

The only official worthy in the US, in my opinion - Brian Hall... Never seen him fuck it up once. Sadly, from a Fifa Perspective, he's too 'old'

ag futbol
06-05-2010, 06:21 PM
Vaughan is putrid!

I can't believe those three guys are the "top" officials. What a joke.

TFCRegina
06-05-2010, 06:24 PM
Vaughn is the best of the Three...and he's mediocre at best.

MLS needs to develop a real reffing program. Maybe they should look at what the Canadian Hockey Association does?

I remember i was in the SHA's elite program before I moved provinces...they evaluated you every game...if you couldn't make the cut, you were cut.

Gixmo
06-05-2010, 06:25 PM
Just a reference to the above, That roster only outlines who was at the Winter Showcase, It's not a 100% complete list of USA Soccer officials.

I'm sure I have a listing of officials somewhere around here :)


Vaughn is the best of the Three...and he's mediocre at best.

MLS needs to develop a real reffing program. Maybe they should look at what the Canadian Hockey Association does?

I remember i was in the SHA's elite program before I moved provinces...they evaluated you every game...if you couldn't make the cut, you were cut.

Agree entirely... I did U15/17 Travel programs & Ontario Cup contests for many years and always looked at my game assessments as a chance to grow - the CSA is very poignant in their feedback. I was fortunate enough to have a consistent pair of linesman that rotated in and out which made my life a lot easier. I stepped away from the game to focus on my professional life however I constantly find myself wanting to go back - In turn, I've started my assessments again, physicals etc in preparation to come back next year full time... and I want a cool bright color jersey :)

prizby
06-05-2010, 06:47 PM
there is a reason there is no US rep at the WC for refs


fifa sees it, when will the USSF?

TFCRegina
06-05-2010, 06:50 PM
Just a reference to the above, That roster only outlines who was at the Winter Showcase, It's not a 100% complete list of USA Soccer officials.

I'm sure I have a listing of officials somewhere around here :)



Agree entirely... I did U15/17 Travel programs & Ontario Cup contests for many years and always looked at my game assessments as a chance to grow - the CSA is very poignant in their feedback. I was fortunate enough to have a consistent pair of linesman that rotated in and out which made my life a lot easier. I stepped away from the game to focus on my professional life however I constantly find myself wanting to go back - In turn, I've started my assessments again, physicals etc in preparation to come back next year full time... and I want a cool bright color jersey :)

I need to get into officiating football...hopefully my hockey experience will be of benefit. I know I can take crap from people, but I need to learn the laws of the game in depth.

SilverSamurai
06-05-2010, 06:55 PM
Ya, and Salazar is a wank as well.

Vaughan isn't too bad... but yes, Weak weak weak shit in the US when it comes to officials...

.... You should see Canada's officials.. Yikes.

The only official worthy in the US, in my opinion - Brian Hall... Never seen him fuck it up once. Sadly, from a Fifa Perspective, he's too 'old'
Where are the Canadian refs?
I've only seen 2. That chick who's not too bad (at reffing I mean) and some Asian dude. He's not too bad at reffing actually.

Nerepis
06-05-2010, 07:20 PM
Where are the Canadian refs?
I've only seen 2. That chick who's not too bad (at reffing I mean) and some Asian dude. He's not too bad at reffing actually.

I think you are talking about Carol Anne Chenard, yes she's not bad. I think she puts Toledo to shame.

Pachuco
06-05-2010, 07:27 PM
I actually felt bad for Garcia today. The card didn't look deserving from where I was standing. However still gotta see that replay.

swan
06-05-2010, 07:58 PM
when i saw he was the ref for this game before the game started i told my wife that we will get a red or a penalty give againts us and he will cost us the game..
i was half right just glad the boys could hold on while we were a man down and not give up a goal...

colman1860
06-05-2010, 08:35 PM
when i saw he was the ref for this game before the game started i told my wife that we will get a red or a penalty give againts us and he will cost us the game..
i was half right just glad the boys could hold on while we were a man down and not give up a goal...

Same here - I hate Toledo based on past games like lots of us.

HOWEVER to me the Garcia sending off was entirely deserved - it was a knee high, studs up kick, which used excessive force and endangered the opponent. I think Toledo's biggest mistake today (aside from inconsistencies on direction of throw ins and goal/corner kicks) was not cautioning the defender who clipped Barrett with the high foot.

To be honest, I've seen far worse from Toledo (and others in this league). The reaction on here reminds me of the game 2 seasons ago when both Guevara and Velez were sent off, and everybody was ready to lynch the referee - ignoring the fact that both dismissals were fully deserved and we should have focused on Guevara/Velez' lack of discipline instead. Not every referee is terrible simply because he makes calls against our team.

Shakes McQueen
06-05-2010, 08:52 PM
Same here - I hate Toledo based on past games like lots of us.

HOWEVER to me the Garcia sending off was entirely deserved - it was a knee high, studs up kick, which used excessive force and endangered the opponent. I think Toledo's biggest mistake today (aside from inconsistencies on direction of throw ins and goal/corner kicks) was not cautioning the defender who clipped Barrett with the high foot.

To be honest, I've seen far worse from Toledo (and others in this league). The reaction on here reminds me of the game 2 seasons ago when both Guevara and Velez were sent off, and everybody was ready to lynch the referee - ignoring the fact that both dismissals were fully deserved and we should have focused on Guevara/Velez' lack of discipline instead. Not every referee is terrible simply because he makes calls against our team.

You are wrong wrong wrong. Garcia was was making a play on the ball, and had priority on the ball. He was trying to clear the ball as it came down - a perfectly legitimate play. He wasn't trying to kick Kamara - in fact, Kamara is the one that came charging in, NOT LOOKING AT THE BALL. Kamara came in to try and block the shot, and got hit by Garcia's studs on the follow-through of his (missed) kick attempt!

And I find it hilarious that you think this was a deserved red card, but a guy raising his leg above his head to kick a bill, hitting Barrett in the face with his studs, is only a caution.

To a decent referee, neither would be cards. Garcia's kick would possibly be a yellow, and that's it.

- Scott

Roogsy
06-05-2010, 08:54 PM
And I find it hilarious that you think this was a deserved red card, but a guy raising his leg above his head to kick a bill, hitting Barrett in the face with his studs, is only a caution.

Did he even get cautioned for it? I don't think I saw a yellow at all! :eek:

Shakes McQueen
06-05-2010, 08:57 PM
Did he even get cautioned for it? I don't think I saw a yellow at all! :eek:

He didn't get ANYTHING for it. I was pointing out that colman thought Toledo's only mistake was not CAUTIONING the KC player for that kick.

If Toledo's shittiness was at all consistent between the two teams, that kick also would be a sending off. But it wasn't, and BArrett ended up wearing a bandage on his chin the second half.

Far less dangerous than Kamara getting a stud in the leg on Garcia's follow-through, eh? Toledo is fucked.

- Scott

Torontotonto
06-05-2010, 08:58 PM
Did he even get cautioned for it? I don't think I saw a yellow at all! :eek:

Nope, just a free kick outside of the box.

:drum::scarf::flare::scarf::drum:

Roogsy
06-05-2010, 08:59 PM
Unbelievable. What a joke of a referee.

I can't believe this douchebag is a full-time ref. MLS should be complaining to the USSF.

If this asshole comes back and costs TFC an important game in the future, we need to protest against him at gate 4 and make sure he needs to exit from another gate.

Whoop
06-05-2010, 09:03 PM
The ref didn't even speak to the defender who kicked, or nearly kicked, Barrett in the face.

Nothing...

prizby
06-05-2010, 09:04 PM
can garcia appeal his red? think he will?

will he win?

Shakes McQueen
06-05-2010, 09:06 PM
Part of me was really hoping he would get punched in the back of the head as he was walking to his car after the game, or something along those lines. I wanted that asshole to feel pain.

In the future, I just hope he gets detained at the border. And on an honest note, I really do hope the TFC FO protest having this shitface officiate any more of our games.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
06-05-2010, 09:07 PM
can garcia appeal his red? think he will?

will he win?

No way he would win. It would have to be beyond crystal clear that Toledo fucked up, for them to reverse it.

- Scott

Kaz
06-05-2010, 09:12 PM
watching the replay from other angles, Garcia was bring his foot down when the KC player ran into him, there was no way Garcia could have known that was going to happen, it was a clear but poor challenge for the ball the resulted in a bad luck contact. It was Yellow worth for sure, but Garcia isn't known for that type of behaviour and looking it from match footage and from replay you can give the player the benefit of the doubt. Unless you are Toledo and that player is wearing a Jersey he doesn't like

Shakes McQueen
06-05-2010, 09:14 PM
It sometimes really does feel like Toledo is biased against TFC specifically, but then I remember he has issued 41 red cards in 96 games, and realize he is just a really, really bad referee.

- Scott

Stryker
06-05-2010, 09:17 PM
As soon as I saw Toledo was the ref all bets were off.
We need to petition Fifa, CSA, MLS, whoever to somehow see to it that this douche never refs a Toronto game again.

TFCRegina
06-05-2010, 09:26 PM
Did he even get cautioned for it? I don't think I saw a yellow at all! :eek:

Nothing was given.

It was brutal. If Garcia's challenged warrented a red, then that did too.

Torontotonto
06-05-2010, 09:41 PM
Just seen the replay. Garcia was focused on the ball the whole way, yellow mabey, but no way a red. Review most likely won't do anything now, but they may have a good case against Tooooooledo with the kick to Barrett's face with nothing but a free kick?

Roogsy
06-05-2010, 10:18 PM
Rewatching the game on my PVR now.


This ref is horrible.

Gixmo
06-05-2010, 10:42 PM
there is a reason there is no US rep at the WC for refs


fifa sees it, when will the USSF?

Actually, the only reason there is NOT a USSF official there, is because he retired (See above). The others are shit.


Where are the Canadian refs?
I've only seen 2. That chick who's not too bad (at reffing I mean) and some Asian dude. He's not too bad at reffing actually.

You're probably thinking of Carol Chenard. The Asian guy I'll have to check. If I remember right, there is an African-American guy from the burbs who is 1 or 2 steps away from a full Fifa designation. I believe he's been part of a TFC match before.

The biggest problem in Canada for referees is obtaining the required designations to move on up. The opportunity for matches at the top level are rare, and 'owned' by a select few. Part of the reason I left officiating was simply boredom at the level I was at - I was looking for Mens Premiere, Provincials etc.

It's not a career, it's a hobby - the CSA's top referees are not FT refs, They have a life outside it. When the CSA injects change here, You'll see a great crop of smart, young officials who are in tune with the game.


The ref didn't even speak to the defender who kicked, or nearly kicked, Barrett in the face.

Nothing...

Having covered this in the game thread, why? There was no foul, It's just a 'high kick'.. I'll copy/paste my response in the other thread here, Shakes McQueen brought it up and there was some good discussion over it.

"
Nick Garcia's red card comes down to the referee's interpretation of dangerous play. In Toledo's eyes, he's red card happy and subsequently tossed Garcia. Was it right, no - It is a yellow card, It's a late challenge and a mild swing and a miss... However, There was skin missing as we all saw on TV. (Blood makes cards easier, trust me :) )

Conrad vs Barrett - Technically, correct call. It's not 'dangerous play', Chad put his head in there, leaning over. IF you go back on the play, Chad leans into the ball and Conrad's shin on the follow through takes out Chad's head. Correctly, a free kick was awarded for a 'high kick'

To put this into perspective, You're a fellow gooner. Let's go back to when Abou Diaby took John Terry's head off on a clearance from the line (Remember that, Knocked him out cold).. There was no card there, and that was the correct call. John's face, was in the wrong place.

Now - What we can agree factually is that Toledo's performance is garbage again. What boggles my mind is how a Fifa referee can continue to make it through his assessments with a card record like he does. I'm going through the Concacaf Referee logs comparing data and Toledo is miles ahead of anyone else. This is concerning, as in the end - USA Soccer/Concacaf/Fifa see no problems in this officiating."

To throw it out there, if I was in charge today - I'd have cautioned Garcia, and waved play on at Barrett's foul. KC has the right to either play it out, or play it down. At the whistle, I'd be talking to Barrett/Conrad. I would have given both cards to Rocastle, and potentially awarded a penalty to Toronto for the push on Dero late in the back on Chad's break. Really disappointing call, the linesman need to step up - Another major problem in Canada as most linesman, simply watch for offside only which is not technically correct.

colman1860
06-05-2010, 10:59 PM
You are wrong wrong wrong. Garcia was was making a play on the ball, and had priority on the ball. He was trying to clear the ball as it came down - a perfectly legitimate play. He wasn't trying to kick Kamara - in fact, Kamara is the one that came charging in, NOT LOOKING AT THE BALL. Kamara came in to try and block the shot, and got hit by Garcia's studs on the follow-through of his (missed) kick attempt!

And I find it hilarious that you think this was a deserved red card, but a guy raising his leg above his head to kick a bill, hitting Barrett in the face with his studs, is only a caution.

To a decent referee, neither would be cards. Garcia's kick would possibly be a yellow, and that's it.

- Scott

Scott - according to the Laws of the Game, it doesn't matter whatsoever what Garcia's intent was. The fact is that he used excessive force. It also doesn't matter what Kamara was doing during the play. I know that Garcia did not intend to foul Kamara, and that he was simply following through on what should have been a clearance. It simply doesn't matter.

Quoting from Laws of the Game: "Using excessive force means that the player [...] is in danger of injuring his opponent. A player who uses excessive force must be sent off."

I don't think it can be argued that Garcia's kick could have badly injured Kamara.

And I don't think that Kansas City's defender's high foot was more than dangerous play - certainly a reckless tackle (yellow card), but not excessive force.

That's all I'm going to contribute here - I know all of us are wearing the red tinted glasses and there's no point in parading a view that few share (giambac style). Good night to all.

colman1860
06-05-2010, 11:01 PM
FWIW - the Asian referee people are talking about is Geoff Gamble I believe (he had TFC - Vancouver on Wednesday)

The African American from the suburbs is likely Joe Fletcher from Oakville, been an assistant at BMO a few times during the past few years (though assistants never referee and vice versa - once you get high up enough, you have to decide which you want to be).

Gixmo
06-05-2010, 11:05 PM
Damn you're good, Correct on both accounts.

I did not know Fletcher had gone FT to the line - He spoke at one of my assessments a while back and was generally a cool guy, Lots of love for the game.

Roogsy
06-05-2010, 11:13 PM
Scott - according to the Laws of the Game, it doesn't matter whatsoever what Garcia's intent was. The fact is that he used excessive force. It also doesn't matter what Kamara was doing during the play. I know that Garcia did not intend to foul Kamara, and that he was simply following through on what should have been a clearance. It simply doesn't matter.

How is whiffing on the ball with not a KC player in sight using "excessive force"?

I promise you this...if Garcia hadn't missed, and did indeed clear the ball and still caught Kamara, there would have been no card.

These are professional soccer players. Their kicks are at full speed and with force. If I decide to slide in on the keeper as he is taking a free kick and his cleats catch me in the face, that's on me, not on the keeper. The same here. The ball was up in the air and free, Garcia was the closest player, waited for the ball to come down and then took at swing at it. Kamara came on FROM THE SIDE and stuck his leg in and that is excessive force???

Bull...

Blizzard
06-05-2010, 11:52 PM
FWIW - the Asian referee people are talking about is Geoff Gamble I believe (he had TFC - Vancouver on Wednesday)

The African American from the suburbs is likely Joe Fletcher from Oakville, been an assistant at BMO a few times during the past few years (though assistants never referee and vice versa - once you get high up enough, you have to decide which you want to be).

The other Canadian referee we've seen on occasion Silviu Petrescu.
http://www.football-lineups.com/referee/976/

More Canadian referees are listed here.
http://www.football-lineups.com/country/ca/Referees/

Nestease
06-06-2010, 12:08 AM
It's a red card. It was a 50-50 challenge. They were both running towards the ball. In fact, Kamara DID touch the ball first and WON that challenge and he did so without putting his studs into Garcia. Garcia missed the ball and went studs up on the guy. Intentions don't cancel out bonehead 50-50 challenges.

If you go into a challenge hard, you better win that ball. If you don't, be prepared to get the card. Garcia rolled the dice and lost.

jazzy
06-06-2010, 02:23 AM
Same here - I hate Toledo based on past games like lots of us.

HOWEVER to me the Garcia sending off was entirely deserved - it was a knee high, studs up kick, which used excessive force and endangered the opponent. I think Toledo's biggest mistake today (aside from inconsistencies on direction of throw ins and goal/corner kicks) was not cautioning the defender who clipped Barrett with the high foot.

To be honest, I've seen far worse from Toledo (and others in this league). The reaction on here reminds me of the game 2 seasons ago when both Guevara and Velez were sent off, and everybody was ready to lynch the referee - ignoring the fact that both dismissals were fully deserved and we should have focused on Guevara/Velez' lack of discipline instead. Not every referee is terrible simply because he makes calls against our team.

Did you actually look at the replays?....Garcia was on the ball kicking it out of trouble, ball gone, then kansas player runs into his foot after the follow through, his foot glancing off the thigh....I would have blamed myself for not getting to the ball quick enough.......first come first served, toally playing the ball...and nice acting...he played pretty strong after that.....OK at worst a yellow.....straight red?????? and the inconsistancies that followed pitiful........

jazzy
06-06-2010, 02:26 AM
Actually, the only reason there is NOT a USSF official there, is because he retired (See above). The others are shit.



You're probably thinking of Carol Chenard. The Asian guy I'll have to check. If I remember right, there is an African-American guy from the burbs who is 1 or 2 steps away from a full Fifa designation. I believe he's been part of a TFC match before.

The biggest problem in Canada for referees is obtaining the required designations to move on up. The opportunity for matches at the top level are rare, and 'owned' by a select few. Part of the reason I left officiating was simply boredom at the level I was at - I was looking for Mens Premiere, Provincials etc.

It's not a career, it's a hobby - the CSA's top referees are not FT refs, They have a life outside it. When the CSA injects change here, You'll see a great crop of smart, young officials who are in tune with the game.



Having covered this in the game thread, why? There was no foul, It's just a 'high kick'.. I'll copy/paste my response in the other thread here, Shakes McQueen brought it up and there was some good discussion over it.

"
Nick Garcia's red card comes down to the referee's interpretation of dangerous play. In Toledo's eyes, he's red card happy and subsequently tossed Garcia. Was it right, no - It is a yellow card, It's a late challenge and a mild swing and a miss... However, There was skin missing as we all saw on TV. (Blood makes cards easier, trust me :) )

Conrad vs Barrett - Technically, correct call. It's not 'dangerous play', Chad put his head in there, leaning over. IF you go back on the play, Chad leans into the ball and Conrad's shin on the follow through takes out Chad's head. Correctly, a free kick was awarded for a 'high kick'

To put this into perspective, You're a fellow gooner. Let's go back to when Abou Diaby took John Terry's head off on a clearance from the line (Remember that, Knocked him out cold).. There was no card there, and that was the correct call. John's face, was in the wrong place.

Now - What we can agree factually is that Toledo's performance is garbage again. What boggles my mind is how a Fifa referee can continue to make it through his assessments with a card record like he does. I'm going through the Concacaf Referee logs comparing data and Toledo is miles ahead of anyone else. This is concerning, as in the end - USA Soccer/Concacaf/Fifa see no problems in this officiating."

To throw it out there, if I was in charge today - I'd have cautioned Garcia, and waved play on at Barrett's foul. KC has the right to either play it out, or play it down. At the whistle, I'd be talking to Barrett/Conrad. I would have given both cards to Rocastle, and potentially awarded a penalty to Toronto for the push on Dero late in the back on Chad's break. Really disappointing call, the linesman need to step up - Another major problem in Canada as most linesman, simply watch for offside only which is not technically correct.

There is a latino from Winnipeg, at the last world cup, working his way up I believe....

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
06-06-2010, 02:41 AM
94 games..40 RED cards!....enough said!

DichioTFC
06-06-2010, 03:57 AM
Fairness to Toledo, he gave the mohawk-douche Philly defender a direct red for elbowing JDG on a play that some argued (at the time) could've been a yellow. He also gave KC a red today. He does suck, but he's consistent with his sucking, he doesn't favour one team over another.

And has there ever been such support for Garcia around these quarters? Unprecedented, and all thanks to Toledo!

Flipityflu
06-06-2010, 10:04 AM
Fairness to Toledo, he gave the mohawk-douche Philly defender a direct red for elbowing JDG on a play that some argued (at the time) could've been a yellow. He also gave KC a red today. He does suck, but he's consistent with his sucking, he doesn't favour one team over another.

And has there ever been such support for Garcia around these quarters? Unprecedented, and all thanks to Toledo!


yeah, at least he's fair in his uselessness.

koryo
06-06-2010, 10:29 AM
It isn't the first time this Toledo bastard has jobbed us is it? It's not just us either, apparently he ends up fucking over just about every team in the league.

Garcia's red was never a red. And a only a free-kick after Barrett had his face pock-marked with studs? Tell me another one...

Shakes McQueen
06-06-2010, 01:01 PM
Scott - according to the Laws of the Game, it doesn't matter whatsoever what Garcia's intent was. The fact is that he used excessive force. It also doesn't matter what Kamara was doing during the play. I know that Garcia did not intend to foul Kamara, and that he was simply following through on what should have been a clearance. It simply doesn't matter.

Quoting from Laws of the Game: "Using excessive force means that the player [...] is in danger of injuring his opponent. A player who uses excessive force must be sent off."

I don't think it can be argued that Garcia's kick could have badly injured Kamara.

And I don't think that Kansas City's defender's high foot was more than dangerous play - certainly a reckless tackle (yellow card), but not excessive force.

That's all I'm going to contribute here - I know all of us are wearing the red tinted glasses and there's no point in parading a view that few share (giambac style). Good night to all.

But your defense of the red card falls apart in the first sentence - it wasn't "excessive force". Kamara's leg was glanced by Garcia's studs, as Garcia followed through on his clearing attempt.

There was no excessive force. There was Kamara running into Garcia's leg. That rule is for things like sliding challenges. There was no challenge here - just Garcia standing still, attempting to side-kick a ball out of our third of the pitch.

- Scott

TorCanSoc
06-06-2010, 01:08 PM
He's like a rain slicked pitch, bad for both team. He sucks for everyone all the time, so basically he cancels himself out. Seriously, he's brutal.

Toronto Ruffrider
06-06-2010, 06:46 PM
Fairness to Toledo, he gave the mohawk-douche Philly defender a direct red for elbowing JDG on a play that some argued (at the time) could've been a yellow. He also gave KC a red today. He does suck, but he's consistent with his sucking, he doesn't favour one team over another.

And has there ever been such support for Garcia around these quarters? Unprecedented, and all thanks to Toledo!

The Philly defender was the last man back IIRC, so fouling de Guzman without attempting to play the ball was an automatic red, plain and simple. I would expect the same form of discipline if one of our defenders committed that kind of foul.

JonO
06-06-2010, 06:50 PM
It's a red card. It was a 50-50 challenge. They were both running towards the ball. In fact, Kamara DID touch the ball first and WON that challenge and he did so without putting his studs into Garcia. Garcia missed the ball and went studs up on the guy. Intentions don't cancel out bonehead 50-50 challenges.

If you go into a challenge hard, you better win that ball. If you don't, be prepared to get the card. Garcia rolled the dice and lost.
So the guy who loses on a 50-50 ball earns a red card? Geeze, the things I learn on this board :rolleyes:

shaggingscot
06-06-2010, 06:51 PM
He's like a rain slicked pitch, bad for both team. He sucks for everyone all the time, so basically he cancels himself out. Seriously, he's brutal.

Agreed, he just plain shite. The minute he showed Garcia the red card you just knew he'd even it up at some point. I have no idea how the man manages to keep his license, he looks completely lost and out of position half the time.

DichioTFC
06-06-2010, 07:00 PM
The Philly defender was the last man back IIRC, so fouling de Guzman without attempting to play the ball was an automatic red, plain and simple. I would expect the same form of discipline if one of our defenders committed that kind of foul.

I agree with you 100% but when I read people's opinions after the game, people were saying we were "lucky" to get a red on that occasion and that "maybe" it was a yellow.

My point is that Toledo screws all teams, not just ours.

rocker
06-06-2010, 07:09 PM
no matter how you see the card, the fact is, a better defender doesn't have that happen to him. i've read some people say it could have happened to any defender on the team... ummm, no. Nana and Cann would have judged and arrived at the ball much quicker.

ag futbol
06-06-2010, 10:07 PM
^ yeah I agree.

After watching this one again, I'd almost have to change my opinion from yesterday. Not sure if I'd call it a red, but it's unquestionably a foul. He's got his studs showing to the player (bad) and connected with him.

Is Hscanovic that far out of favor when he can't start ahead of this guy?

Shakes McQueen
06-06-2010, 10:11 PM
^ yeah I agree.

After watching this one again, I'd almost have to change my opinion from yesterday. Not sure if I'd call it a red, but it's unquestionably a foul. He's got his studs showing to the player (bad) and connected with him.

Is Hscanovic that far out of favor when he can't start ahead of this guy?

The consensus is that it was certainly a foul, and probably even a card. The outrage is because it was a red card, for a completely inadvertent injury, that was nothing even close to recklessly dangerous.

Garcia had priority on the ball, and was trying to clear it. Kamara barged in, and accidentally got glanced by one of Garcia's studs on the follow-through motion of his kick. Garcia gets sent off.

Explain that to me.

- Scott

DichioTFC
06-06-2010, 10:26 PM
^ yeah I agree.

After watching this one again, I'd almost have to change my opinion from yesterday. Not sure if I'd call it a red, but it's unquestionably a foul. He's got his studs showing to the player (bad) and connected with him.

Is Hscanovic that far out of favor when he can't start ahead of this guy?

I would like Hscanovics to start over Garcia, but fairness to Nicky G he's been doing well at the LB. I'm guessing Preki is giving Garcia for confidence.

ag futbol
06-06-2010, 10:30 PM
Garcia had priority on the ball, and was trying to clear it. Kamara barged in, and accidentally got glanced by one of Garcia's studs on the follow-through motion of his kick. Garcia gets sent off.

Explain that to me.

- Scott
Debatable. Was that a follow through, or is that him leaving his foot in as he knew he was going to run into Kamara? You can see him raise his elbow too after he fails to make good contact with the ball. All seems just a little bit un-natural.

Could be Garcia's rep of being one of the dirtier players in the league, but from seeing him play i wouldn't put it beyond him to do something like that.

Again it all seems a pretty subtle for Toledo somehow flag it as a red. But in the end it goes down as one more example of Garcia being a liability out there.

ag futbol
06-06-2010, 10:33 PM
I would like Hscanovics to start over Garcia, but fairness to Nicky G he's been doing well at the LB. I'm guessing Preki is giving Garcia for confidence.
I dunno like a lot of guys who played left and right back for this team, he just leaves acres of space for the winger to cross the ball in because he's too slow to get tight to his man and is scared of getting beat.

He's doing what he can considering his age and state of mobility, decent on the ball as well, but I just think he's prone to large mistakes so it would be best if we kept him on the bench for the most part.

DichioTFC
06-06-2010, 10:50 PM
I dunno like a lot of guys who played left and right back for this team, he just leaves acres of space for the winger to cross the ball in because he's too slow to get tight to his man and is scared of getting beat.

He's doing what he can considering his age and state of mobility, decent on the ball as well, but I just think he's prone to large mistakes so it would be best if we kept him on the bench for the most part.

I can't blame anyone for wanting Nick Garcia on the bench, but he's been playing well in that position relative to the other players we have (read: we have some average fullbacks, each with benefits and potential for huge mishaps).

I think Garcia's issue is with concentration more than anything else. When he's focused, he's effective. When he gets lazy... well, 4-1 New England.

I'm glad Preki's putting boot to ass for the players, I think Garcia has been a big beneficiary of the system thus far.

backbeat
06-06-2010, 10:53 PM
my issue with it is that it dictates how the game is played rather than the teams dictating how the game is played

it really fucks up the flow of the game and subsequently makes it boring to watch - it matters not that he "evened" it up - the fact is he screwed up the flow when he made it 11 on 10 and then evened it to 10 on 10 in the 2nd half.

in my mind it is totally fucking boring making the ref the star of the gme instead of the players... i hate that shit.... :facepalm:

there are days of planning and training by the coaches for game day only to have a prima donna douche dismantle it and take centre stage

Nestease
06-07-2010, 12:05 AM
So the guy who loses on a 50-50 ball earns a red card? Geeze, the things I learn on this board :rolleyes:


If he leaves the challenge with no touch on the ball and his studs into another player, yes he does. It's called a dangerous play. It doesn't matter what his intent was. Do you not watch soccer much?

Roogsy
06-07-2010, 12:23 AM
Where have you found that rule Nestease? For the record, I've been playing and watching soccer since I could walk and that is the first time I have heard "dangerous play" defined in that manner. A quick search found this:


The rules do not define precisely what is meant by "playing in a dangerous manner," except to defer to the referee's of the referee. Commonly accepted notions of "dangerous play" include high kicking near other players, kicking wildly on the ground with players nearby, tackling for the ball with the cleats exposed or when it is in the keeper's possession--even, on occasion, exposing oneself to the risk of harm, if it causes someone to refrain from playing the ball for fear of injuring his overly adventuresome opponent. It is only a foul if it places an opponent at risk, however. A high kick alone in mid-field endangers no one, while the same kick in a crowded penalty area very well may. And while many spectators become agitated when a player on the ground kicks at the ball, it is only a "dangerous play" when doing so places the legs and feet of opposing players at risk.

Nowhere in this definition (which is not a FIFA definition I do admit but appears to come from a legimate source) does it defined "dangerous" the same way you have.

What happened with Garcia and Kamara is very simple. Both of them went for a 50/50 ball, both crashed into each other, but only Garcia's stud caught an opposing player. Kamara was too busy CRASHING into Garcia. Both players were playing the ball and unconcerned with the opposing player. In essence, they were both playing the ball the same way but only one got the card.

Red card? Ridiculous.

AL-MO
06-07-2010, 12:44 AM
Here are the following offences you can be red carded for:

~ Used offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures - NO
~ Spitting at an opponent or any other person - NO
~ Received a second caution in the same game (also provide description of first caution) NO
~ Denied the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball - NO
~ Denied an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or penalty kick - NO

So its either:

~ Serious Foul Play

OR

~ Violent Conduct

Neither of which IMO did Garcia commit on Saturday. It should have been a yellow card, no more.

torontocelt
06-07-2010, 06:33 AM
So the guy who loses on a 50-50 ball earns a red card? Geeze, the things I learn on this board :rolleyes:

He does if he misses the ball completely and follows through on the opposition player with a high, studs up challenge just above the knee. It was a reckless challenge that cannot be disputed. It was caused by Garcia having no awareness of those around him. It was caused by Garcia being late to the ball. It was caused by Garcia going full force on a ball he did not need to win in the middle of the park. Garcia would have been well aware having played in the MLS for many years that this referee is card happy. What you do not want to do under those circumstances if commit a reckless high, stud showing foul on your opponent for a meaningless ball in the middle of the pitch which would not have caused any problems anyway. It was a bad decision by Garcia and one he could easily have avoided had he used his brain. We have all seen players sent off for less than what Garcia done, no one should be surprised by the outcome.

GlenM
06-07-2010, 06:47 AM
Here are the following offences you can be red carded for:

~ Used offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures - NO
~ Spitting at an opponent or any other person - NO
~ Received a second caution in the same game (also provide description of first caution) NO
~ Denied the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball - NO
~ Denied an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or penalty kick - NO

So its either:

~ Serious Foul Play

OR

~ Violent Conduct

Neither of which IMO did Garcia commit on Saturday. It should have been a yellow card, no more.

AGREED!

GlenM

GlenM
06-07-2010, 06:50 AM
I believe Toledo was one of the 3 refs they supposely disciplined last yr for questionable (poor) officiating.

Seems like he's still on track.

Yes, he's bad, very bad!

GlenM

pekduck
06-07-2010, 07:23 AM
another issues with horrid referees in USSF is that they only have like 3 full time referees who are not making nearly as much as those other division 1 referees making across the pond.

part time refs are all over the place, and making about what? $300-500 a game? they have to travel to the game site to earn the pay cheque most of the time

not may 20-35 year old people aspire to make a living out of a full time ref

Kaz
06-07-2010, 07:27 AM
For those saying Garcia was reckless with it I disagree, he kicked for the ball as he and other players do regularly, the KC player was a good distant away when he started his challenge, and had plenty of time to adjust for Garcia's kick. When he made contact with Garcia, Garcia was already in the process of bring his leg down after mostly missing the ball. Which is how he made contact where he did. The KC play was rushing in without thinking...

It was a legitimate challenge and when he made it there was no one else close enough to be concerned about.

It was a yellow card, but not a red.

It would only be a RED card if the KC player and he had been jocking for position before hand or if the KC player was in harms way when the decision was made to challenge for the ball, neither is true.

And the inconsistence of Toledo in doing nothing later in the game when a card was deserved again, shows a possible bias or at the very least a extreme poor judgment, I hope Garcia appeals the card, and that MLS stop giving this fucker work.

bgnewf
06-07-2010, 08:00 AM
May 9 2009 - Away to D.C. United. A 3-3 draw.
June 24 2009 - Home to the New York Red Bulls. A 2-0 victory for TFC.
September 12 2009- Home to the Colorado Rapids A 3-2 victory for TFC.
April 15 2010 - Home to the Philadelphia Union. A 2-1 victory for TFC.
June 5 2010 - Home to the Kansas City Wizards. A 0-0 draw.

What do these five games have in common you ask other than the fact that Toronto FC played in them? They were all officiated by the current lightning rod for fan hatred in Toronto, one Mr. Balderomo Toledo.

I am not doubting his lack of ability and the fact that he is apparently way too trigger happy on the red cards (1 every two games I believe in his average) but TFC fans need with due respect to take a look a the numbers before claiming bias.

There is a big difference between bias and incompetence.

DangerRed
06-07-2010, 08:01 AM
That Garcia red card was nothing. Maybe someone else has posted this already, but I was sitting in the North stand, just feet away and elevated above the net, and I and a whole bunch of others fucking SAW Toledo point for a penalty kick in the first half, before the ball bounced to JDG and he missed his chance.

Somehow, Toledo took back his call.

Now how this guy manages to keep working, with calls like that and like a 1:1.5 ratio of red cards to games officiated, I have no clue.

Roogsy
06-07-2010, 08:11 AM
He does if he misses the ball completely and follows through on the opposition player with a high, studs up challenge just above the knee. It was a reckless challenge that cannot be disputed. It was caused by Garcia having no awareness of those around him. It was caused by Garcia being late to the ball. It was caused by Garcia going full force on a ball he did not need to win in the middle of the park. Garcia would have been well aware having played in the MLS for many years that this referee is card happy. What you do not want to do under those circumstances if commit a reckless high, stud showing foul on your opponent for a meaningless ball in the middle of the pitch which would not have caused any problems anyway. It was a bad decision by Garcia and one he could easily have avoided had he used his brain. We have all seen players sent off for less than what Garcia done, no one should be surprised by the outcome.


I completely disagree.

We demand of these players that they fight for every inch of the pitch. That they don't back down and scare off from the ball. The ball was up in the air and belonged to nobody. Garcia went it trying to clear it and Kamara came charging in from the side and essentially bodychecked Garcia! How is that a reckless challenge on Garcia's part? In my opinion, had Kamara not been "fortunately" hurt, that should have been a foul called against Kamara!!! He was far more reckless than Garcia.

JonO
06-07-2010, 08:25 AM
He does if he misses the ball completely and follows through on the opposition player with a high, studs up challenge just above the knee. It was a reckless challenge that cannot be disputed.
I love when people state their opinion as fact and deny anyone the opportunity to see it differently. Kind of makes me wonder why I bother to reply, but anyway....

The way you describe it makes it seem like Kamara had the ball and garcia went in with a flying kick. I have watched the reply repeated and can't see anything that would back that up. To me it looks like Garcia whiffs on the ball and Kamara runs into him.

Even if you could argue that it was "reckless", that in and of itself does not warrant a straight red.

Belfast_Boy
06-07-2010, 12:38 PM
feedback@mlsnet.com

use it or don't. can't hurt.

this is what I'm sending.


To whom it may concern

Let me begin by saying that I'm a long time football fan. been watching the game since I was a wee boy growing up in Ireland. I've become a big fan of Toronto FC and go to most of their games.

What went on at BMO field on Saturday was some of the worst officiating that I've ever seen. Mr. Toledo either needs training or to be removed from the position. I'm not going to rant about every bad call from this game or the others that he has ruined.

The bottom line is that the ref should be invisible. He shouldn't influence the game. He's there to keep the flow going and to keep it fair and safe. It seems that Mr. Toledo isn't aware of the role he is supposed to play.

This man is having a serious negative impact on your product and the amount of entertainment I get as a consumer. If you want educated football fans to watch and enjoy MLS then you can't have a man like this in your employment.

Mark Ferris

Gixmo
06-07-2010, 04:27 PM
From the game thread.. (My thoughts)

Nick Garcia's red card comes down to the referee's interpretation of dangerous play. In Toledo's eyes, he's red card happy and subsequently tossed Garcia. Was it right, no - It is a yellow card, It's a late challenge and a mild swing and a miss... However, There was skin missing as we all saw on TV. (Blood makes cards easier, trust me :) )

Conrad vs Barrett - Technically, correct call. It's not 'dangerous play', Chad put his head in there, leaning over. IF you go back on the play, Chad leans into the ball and Conrad's shin on the follow through takes out Chad's head. Correctly, a free kick was awarded for a 'high kick'

To put this into perspective, You're a fellow gooner. Let's go back to when Abou Diaby took John Terry's head off on a clearance from the line (Remember that, Knocked him out cold).. There was no card there, and that was the correct call. John's face, was in the wrong place.

Now - What we can agree factually is that Toledo's performance is garbage again. What boggles my mind is how a Fifa referee can continue to make it through his assessments with a card record like he does. I'm going through the Concacaf Referee logs comparing data and Toledo is miles ahead of anyone else. This is concerning, as in the end - USA Soccer/Concacaf/Fifa see no problems in this officiating."

To throw it out there, if I was in charge today - I'd have cautioned Garcia, and waved play on at Barrett's foul. KC has the right to either play it out, or play it down. At the whistle, I'd be talking to Barrett/Conrad. I would have given both cards to Rocastle, and potentially awarded a penalty to Toronto for the push on Dero late in the back on Chad's break. Really disappointing call, the linesman need to step up - Another major problem in Canada as most linesman, simply watch for offside only which is not technically correct.

Blizzard
06-07-2010, 05:21 PM
That Garcia red card was nothing. Maybe someone else has posted this already, but I was sitting in the North stand, just feet away and elevated above the net, and I and a whole bunch of others fucking SAW Toledo point for a penalty kick in the first half, before the ball bounced to JDG and he missed his chance.

Somehow, Toledo took back his call.

Now how this guy manages to keep working, with calls like that and like a 1:1.5 ratio of red cards to games officiated, I have no clue.

I was just watching that on Game In Six. It sure looked like he was pointing but he must have held off on the whistle. Without him whistling play dead, there is no call. He was obviously giving us the advantage as he saw the ball rolling straight to Julian.

It's the double edged sword of the advantage call. I'd have rather had the penalty obviously but I've also seen referees call the penalty but with the attacking team scoring just after the whistle and bedlam breaking out. I've also see that happen with teams missing the subsequent penalty. That really hurts.

As I said, I'd have preferred the penalty but I will cut referees just a touch of slack when it comes to playing advantage.

Shakes McQueen
06-07-2010, 06:14 PM
To throw it out there, if I was in charge today - I'd have cautioned Garcia, and waved play on at Barrett's foul. KC has the right to either play it out, or play it down. At the whistle, I'd be talking to Barrett/Conrad. I would have given both cards to Rocastle, and potentially awarded a penalty to Toronto for the push on Dero late in the back on Chad's break. Really disappointing call, the linesman need to step up - Another major problem in Canada as most linesman, simply watch for offside only which is not technically correct.

I agree with every single one of these calls. My issue has never been that Conrad should have gotten a yellow/red card in normal circumstances - my issue has always been that, as per Toledo's own internal logic, if you're going to hand out a red card for what Garcia did, then Conrad should have been carded too - either both are "dangerous play", or neither are (the real answer, is NEITHER ARE).

Rocastle deserved his two yellows - particularly the second one. I also thought there was a potential penalty when DeRo got shoved down in the box while trying to connect on Barrett's pass, but nothing was made of it.

- Scott

C.Barrett19
06-07-2010, 06:39 PM
You guys are a bunch of idiots it was a red and I gurantee you guys if a tfc player got fouled like that and he didnt get a red you guys would be crying like little girls.

J .
06-07-2010, 06:46 PM
You guys are a bunch of idiots it was a red and I gurantee you guys if a tfc player got fouled like that and he didnt get a red you guys would be crying like little girls.


I dont think so, thats at worst a yellow in any world. Id be crying like a little girl during the game if he didnt get a yellow, but not a red.

jloome
06-07-2010, 06:59 PM
I believe Toledo was one of the 3 refs they supposely disciplined last yr for questionable (poor) officiating.

Seems like he's still on track.

Yes, he's bad, very bad!

GlenM

You believe incorrectly.

jloome
06-07-2010, 07:02 PM
From the game thread.. (My thoughts)

Nick Garcia's red card comes down to the referee's interpretation of dangerous play. In Toledo's eyes, he's red card happy and subsequently tossed Garcia. Was it right, no - It is a yellow card, It's a late challenge and a mild swing and a miss... However, There was skin missing as we all saw on TV. (Blood makes cards easier, trust me :) )

Conrad vs Barrett - Technically, correct call. It's not 'dangerous play', Chad put his head in there, leaning over. IF you go back on the play, Chad leans into the ball and Conrad's shin on the follow through takes out Chad's head. Correctly, a free kick was awarded for a 'high kick'

To put this into perspective, You're a fellow gooner. Let's go back to when Abou Diaby took John Terry's head off on a clearance from the line (Remember that, Knocked him out cold).. There was no card there, and that was the correct call. John's face, was in the wrong place.

Now - What we can agree factually is that Toledo's performance is garbage again. What boggles my mind is how a Fifa referee can continue to make it through his assessments with a card record like he does. I'm going through the Concacaf Referee logs comparing data and Toledo is miles ahead of anyone else. This is concerning, as in the end - USA Soccer/Concacaf/Fifa see no problems in this officiating."

To throw it out there, if I was in charge today - I'd have cautioned Garcia, and waved play on at Barrett's foul. KC has the right to either play it out, or play it down. At the whistle, I'd be talking to Barrett/Conrad. I would have given both cards to Rocastle, and potentially awarded a penalty to Toronto for the push on Dero late in the back on Chad's break. Really disappointing call, the linesman need to step up - Another major problem in Canada as most linesman, simply watch for offside only which is not technically correct.

Disagree on the Barrett kick. He didn't hardly lean in at all, the guy's foot was way high. Easily cardable.

Shakes McQueen
06-07-2010, 07:29 PM
You guys are a bunch of idiots it was a red and I gurantee you guys if a tfc player got fouled like that and he didnt get a red you guys would be crying like little girls.

I like how you don't actually refute any of the comprehensive opinions here - you just call anyone who disagrees with you an idiot, and then allege we are all mindless homers.

- Scott

ManUtd4ever
06-07-2010, 07:47 PM
You guys are a bunch of idiots it was a red and I gurantee you guys if a tfc player got fouled like that and he didnt get a red you guys would be crying like little girls.

Very insightful...:rolleyes:

Blizzard
06-07-2010, 07:50 PM
Disagree on the Barrett kick. He didn't hardly lean in at all, the guy's foot was way high. Easily cardable.

Agreed. Chad was almost totally upright. Sitting low in 113, you could easily see how high that boot went. Easily a yellow card.

spark
06-07-2010, 07:58 PM
From the game thread.. (My thoughts)
Conrad vs Barrett - Technically, correct call. It's not 'dangerous play', Chad put his head in there, leaning over. IF you go back on the play, Chad leans into the ball and Conrad's shin on the follow through takes out Chad's head. Correctly, a free kick was awarded for a 'high kick'

Do you have a clip of this because I distinctly recall the play was Barrett trying to hold up the ball, backing in to Conrad as the ball bounced towards him (no intention to head it down) and Conrad just swinging his foot up into his face upright.

I don't know if anyone else remembers the Alonso v Lampard challenge two years ago where Alonso did almost the exact same thing - swung for and missed kicking the ball, while Lampard came in with the challenge. But it was not Alonso who went for the kick that was deemed dangerous but Lampard. That play was roundly seen as excessive as well, and it wasn't even the player trying to kick the ball that was sent off.

torontocelt
06-07-2010, 07:59 PM
I love when people state their opinion as fact and deny anyone the opportunity to see it differently. Kind of makes me wonder why I bother to reply, but anyway....

The way you describe it makes it seem like Kamara had the ball and garcia went in with a flying kick. I have watched the reply repeated and can't see anything that would back that up. To me it looks like Garcia whiffs on the ball and Kamara runs into him.

Even if you could argue that it was "reckless", that in and of itself does not warrant a straight red.

Okay so swinging your foot and missing the ball but managing to kick an opposition player just above the knee cap isn't reckless?

I dont think at any point did I imply Kamara had the ball nor that Garcia done a flying kick? Dont you just love it when people take what you say and twist it so that it suits their purpose, I dont know why I would respond to that but there you go.

jloome
06-07-2010, 08:08 PM
Okay so swinging your foot and missing the ball but managing to kick an opposition player just above the knee cap isn't reckless?

I dont think at any point did I imply Kamara had the ball nor that Garcia done a flying kick? Dont you just love it when people take what you say and twist it so that it suits their purpose, I dont know why I would respond to that but there you go.

True. That's not what he said, Jon.

But equally, TC, I don't think you could say he was "late on the ball", the only reason he missed is because Kamara so quickly, and Garcia is actually sorta turning as he goes to hit it, so he might not 've even seen him.

Gixmo
06-07-2010, 09:27 PM
I agree with every single one of these calls. My issue has never been that Conrad should have gotten a yellow/red card in normal circumstances - my issue has always been that, as per Toledo's own internal logic, if you're going to hand out a red card for what Garcia did, then Conrad should have been carded too - either both are "dangerous play", or neither are (the real answer, is NEITHER ARE).

Rocastle deserved his two yellows - particularly the second one. I also thought there was a potential penalty when DeRo got shoved down in the box while trying to connect on Barrett's pass, but nothing was made of it.

- Scott

I don't disagree at all, I just re-posted my initial response for detail :)


Disagree on the Barrett kick. He didn't hardly lean in at all, the guy's foot was way high. Easily cardable.

There is no line, or 'high footing' in football :) Find it on a PVR, online etc.. Barrett does lean over the shoulder. It's not a full fledge lean, but he's 15-20 degrees in there. Conrad's boot makes it minimally past his shoulder. I say again, it's no different the Abou Diaby and John Terry, just Terry was diving in for a goal line scramble

Gixmo
06-07-2010, 09:30 PM
Do you have a clip of this because I distinctly recall the play was Barrett trying to hold up the ball, backing in to Conrad as the ball bounced towards him (no intention to head it down) and Conrad just swinging his foot up into his face upright.

I don't know if anyone else remembers the Alonso v Lampard challenge two years ago where Alonso did almost the exact same thing - swung for and missed kicking the ball, while Lampard came in with the challenge. But it was not Alonso who went for the kick that was deemed dangerous but Lampard. That play was roundly seen as excessive as well, and it wasn't even the player trying to kick the ball that was sent off.

No I don't actually, not now.. but we should so we can all settle this.. :)

jloome
06-08-2010, 10:12 AM
I don't disagree at all, I just re-posted my initial response for detail :)



There is no line, or 'high footing' in football :) Find it on a PVR, online etc.. Barrett does lean over the shoulder. It's not a full fledge lean, but he's 15-20 degrees in there. Conrad's boot makes it minimally past his shoulder. I say again, it's no different the Abou Diaby and John Terry, just Terry was diving in for a goal line scramble

1. THe player kicked is almost upright.

2. Another player kicks him in the face while going for the ball.

HOw is that not easily dangerous play? He had little-to-no chance on the ball (it's not like this was an open bicycle kick or something) and he kicked another player in the face.

Take all the ENglish Premier League equivalents you want mate, but I think you lose that one in the court of public opinion on common sense alone.

Anway, my take on Toledo this week:

http://www.rednationonline.ca/home.shtml

Carts
06-08-2010, 10:18 AM
I fucking hate this guy.

I approve of this message...

Carts...

Gixmo
06-08-2010, 10:54 AM
1. THe player kicked is almost upright.

2. Another player kicks him in the face while going for the ball.

HOw is that not easily dangerous play? He had little-to-no chance on the ball (it's not like this was an open bicycle kick or something) and he kicked another player in the face.

Take all the ENglish Premier League equivalents you want mate, but I think you lose that one in the court of public opinion on common sense alone.

Anway, my take on Toledo this week:

http://www.rednationonline.ca/home.shtml

Which is fair, I respect your opinion. As an accredited official, I'd have taken the same stance Toledo took.. Infact, as pointed out - I would not have even stopped play.

Let's be factual though, he didn't 'kick him in the face' .. It was shin to chin. Almost upright, is not upright either.

I'm not basing this on an EPL instance, I used that as an example. There are several examples out there where injury has occurred from a high boot that was penalized on the play. There is no rule to define it. Check out the Rules of the Game as posted on the Fifa website, You'll agree there is no official stance on that type of instance. It's discretionary.


While I may lose in the court of common sense, in the spirit of sport and several years of plying the trade, I'll respectfully disagree. The call was correct.

JonO
06-08-2010, 11:08 AM
Okay so swinging your foot and missing the ball but managing to kick an opposition player just above the knee cap isn't reckless?
From the FIFA rules of the game:




“Careless” means that the player has shown a lack of attention or
consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution.
• No further disciplinary sanction is needed if a foul is judged to be careless


“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the
danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.
• A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned


“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary
use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.


• A player who uses excessive force must be sent off

I would further argue, that Garcia was more careless than reckless, so it really should have only been a caution. Definitely a bookable offense, not a straight red

J .
06-08-2010, 11:15 AM
If anyone doubts why they should hate this fuckhead, just investigate his "officiating" of the CMNT matches.

I 100% believe this guy is on the take and crooked.

torontocelt
06-08-2010, 11:39 AM
From the FIFA rules of the game:


I would further argue, that Garcia was more careless than reckless, so it really should have only been a caution. Definitely a bookable offense, not a straight red

Okay when I wrote reckless that was from my understanding of the word and not FIFA's, you are correct if you are using FIFA's definition. I do have to say though that when I am composing a sentence I am not running what words I use through FIFA's rules of play definitions.

With regards to whether it should have been a yellow or a red, like I said I have seen red cards given for less, I have also seen players get off scot free for way worse. Was Garica unlucky to be sent off? I would say yes but at the end of the day he knew the ref was card happy and perhaps should have just let the ball sail past him.

Either way what is done is done, I think everyone has to just realise that things like that happen in football and no matter how many defintions you pull up from the fifa website there are referees inconsistances every week in every country where the game is played. Unless people are willing to complain to the MLS about the refs perfomance there is little point in any of us discussing this. I see one guy has sent an email to the mls and I think that is probably the correct way to vent any anger/ frustration/ bewilderment that people might be experiencing with regards to the refs performance. Good luck with getting a positive reponse to that though as referees have made worse calls and have managed to go unpunished.

JonO
06-08-2010, 11:54 AM
^ to be honest I was looking for something else and stumbled across it. I was using it more to bolster my previous point that reckless does not necessitate a red card.

And I agree with you that I have seen reds for for less, though not often and also not without the same level of outrage. I generally don't like to get on the ref's case because it is difficult to make those split second decisions and anyone can make a mistake. But this guy is consistantly horrible and I always cringe when he is announced as the ref.

I guess what I am saying is that I think the call was terrible. Should he be punished on the basis of that call alone. No - mistakes happen. But the way the entire game was reffed was abysmal, especially for someone who is supposed to be one of the "top" refs...

Oldtimer
06-08-2010, 12:05 PM
You know, if it was an isolated bad call, people wouldn't complain so much. It's the fact that he hands out a red every second game. Either MLS players play specially violent when he is ref, or he hands out red cards like candy.

Chevy
06-08-2010, 12:35 PM
From the FIFA rules of the game:


I would further argue, that Garcia was more careless than reckless, so it really should have only been a caution. Definitely a bookable offense, not a straight red

I would extra-further argue that Garcia is more skill-less than careless and reckless. :)

JonO
06-08-2010, 12:38 PM
I would not argue with that ;)

Pachuco
06-08-2010, 12:56 PM
So Jloome, regarding your post in the thread that got closed. What you are basically saying is since you analyzed the play, and you have made a determination that it was a yellow card, then the ref is wrong and he made a mistake. Everyone who thinks was a red is wrong. And everyone who doesn't even think it was a card is wrong as well. Because to you, the only thing that could possibly be right is your analysis of the play.

Did it ever occur to you that a ref makes a call based on 1. the rule book but most importantly 2. Based on their judgemenet and their own interpretation of the rule book? This means that two people could actually be right and come to two different conclusions.

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone is so dead set on arguing what they saw from the play but at the end of the day all that matters is what the ref saw in the play, and the fact there are so many arguments either way tells me this one could've gone either way. If the ref called it a yellow he could've been right as well.

Pachuco
06-08-2010, 01:08 PM
I'll add one more thing for baseball fans. Have you ever watched two baseball games with two different umpires back to back. What's the first thing you notice? the strike zone is never the same. Each ump has his own understanding of where the strike zone is, and it takes the pitchers and batters some figuring out at the beginning of the game the style of the ump and what he views as strikes. That doesn't make one ump right over the other, so long as they are both consistent in their strike zone.

Toldeo may love his reds, but he's atleast consistent in giving them out. If by now the players haven't figured out that Toledo loves his reds then they should do more homework.

Gobi
06-08-2010, 02:47 PM
If anyone doubts why they should hate this fuckhead, just investigate his "officiating" of the CMNT matches.

I 100% believe this guy is on the take and crooked.


I think you are confusing him with Benito Archundia.

Both of them are incompetent douchebags, though, so fair enough.

jloome
06-08-2010, 04:35 PM
So Jloome, regarding your post in the thread that got closed. What you are basically saying is since you analyzed the play, and you have made a determination that it was a yellow card, then the ref is wrong and he made a mistake. Everyone who thinks was a red is wrong. And everyone who doesn't even think it was a card is wrong as well. Because to you, the only thing that could possibly be right is your analysis of the play.

Did it ever occur to you that a ref makes a call based on 1. the rule book but most importantly 2. Based on their judgemenet and their own interpretation of the rule book? This means that two people could actually be right and come to two different conclusions.

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone is so dead set on arguing what they saw from the play but at the end of the day all that matters is what the ref saw in the play, and the fact there are so many arguments either way tells me this one could've gone either way. If the ref called it a yellow he could've been right as well.

What tripe. I didn't claim "rightness" at any point. In fact, I said it's black and white to me, and obviously open to argument, which is the point you're now making here.

J .
06-10-2010, 01:09 PM
I think you are confusing him with Benito Archundia.

Both of them are incompetent douchebags, though, so fair enough.


I stand corrected, they might as well be twins. Well at least I can double my hate for these guys.

Beach_Red
06-10-2010, 01:31 PM
I'll add one more thing for baseball fans. Have you ever watched two baseball games with two different umpires back to back. What's the first thing you notice? the strike zone is never the same. Each ump has his own understanding of where the strike zone is, and it takes the pitchers and batters some figuring out at the beginning of the game the style of the ump and what he views as strikes. That doesn't make one ump right over the other, so long as they are both consistent in their strike zone.

Toldeo may love his reds, but he's atleast consistent in giving them out. If by now the players haven't figured out that Toledo loves his reds then they should do more homework.

Yes, this is true. This is what people mean when they say they want the game to remain "human" and not to rely on video replay. Figuring out the ref is part of what makes the game human.

ag futbol
06-10-2010, 01:36 PM
So did the USSF ever come out with it's match report for this game ? (apologies i'm not sure where it's available)

GlenM
06-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Hey Toledo, I got 2 words for you:

"SUCK IT"

DX style.

GlenM