Report that AC St. Louis is on brink of folding...

[jloome]

....and that Baltimore might be right behind them.

Not good. Presumably MLS needs a second division at some point for developmental purposes -- or at least a reserve league.

http://www.soccermontreal.net/2010/05/bush-league-tales-ac-st-louis-to-fold.html

[Keystone FC]

There are reports that Baltimore is getting new investors and sponsoring so don't flush Baltimore down the drain just yet.
What this does is make the NASL look very unstable with a franchise folding a year after the league starts; worst yet if the club folds before the end of the season. This will weigh heavily on the minds of the USSF as they decide who gets the Div. II spot next season.
Not to mention the NASL was looking at San Antonio, San Diego and Phoenix as possible expansion clubs next season: http://www.crocketteers.com/2010/02/07/nasl-expansion-rumors-san-antonio-among-strongest-possibilities/
Which they may still do but if the USSF doesn't award a Div. II status to the NASL would any of these cities want to be apart of a league that would 'maybe' be apart of the USOC, CCL, high profile exhibitions, and tv revenue?
Also, if the Div. II status goes back to the USL wouldn't it be possible that other NASL clubs jump ship to the Div. II USL?
If AC StL folds, especially before the season ends, then I would expect a number of NASL clubs to not commit to another NASL season unless they get the Div. II status.

Another thing, it also looks like they would be shutting down the womens StL WPS club as well if the NASL clubs folds too.

[jloome]

There are reports that Baltimore is getting new investors and sponsoring so don't flush Baltimore down the drain just yet.
What this does is make the NASL look very unstable with a franchise folding a year after the league starts; worst yet if the club folds before the end of the season. This will weigh heavily on the minds of the USSF as they decide who gets the Div. II spot next season.
Not to mention the NASL was looking at San Antonio, San Diego and Phoenix as possible expansion clubs next season: http://www.crocketteers.com/2010/02/07/nasl-expansion-rumors-san-antonio-among-strongest-possibilities/
Which they may still do but if the USSF doesn't award a Div. II status to the NASL would any of these cities want to be apart of a league that would 'maybe' be apart of the USOC, CCL, high profile exhibitions, and tv revenue?
Also, if the Div. II status goes back to the USL wouldn't it be possible that other NASL clubs jump ship to the Div. II USL?
If AC StL folds, especially before the season ends, then I would expect a number of NASL clubs to not commit to another NASL season unless they get the Div. II status.

Another thing, it also looks like they would be shutting down the womens StL WPS club as well if the NASL clubs folds too.

The cordiality of modern business relationships makes anything possible, but I wouldn't bet on it; the political divisions between the two leagues are fairly enormous.

[James17930]

Wow -- and many people thought they would be a lock for the 20th MLS team. Guess not after this (unless Anheuser (sp?) gets more involved).

Here's a hypothesis: maybe MLS can see the instability in the D2 league, and they know that if they just play their cards right eventually, despite the political divisions, the D2 clubs will basically come crawling to them because they have nowhere else to go, and they'll get their second division for next to nothing.

[Keystone FC]

The cordiality of modern business relationships makes anything possible, but I wouldn't bet on it; the political divisions between the two leagues are fairly enormous.
What's the saying? Politics makes for strange bed fellows? I agree that the politics that lead to the split got nasty but we are also talking about the Almighty Dollar here and that can change perceptions and misgivings really fast.

[Keystone FC]

Wow -- and many people thought they would be a lock for the 20th MLS team. Guess not after this (unless Anheuser (sp?) gets more involved).

Here's a hypothesis: maybe MLS can see the instability in the D2 league, and they know that if they just play their cards right eventually, despite the political divisions, the D2 clubs will basically come crawling to them because they have nowhere else to go, and they'll get their second division for next to nothing.

That would be nice if MLS was looking for a D2 league to call their own, but they aren't. In fact MLS is staying waaaaaay back from this hot mess. If you replace MLS with USL and D2 with NASL then I think your statement has weight to it.

I do think that people forget that the NASL was a rush job and when that happens a few things get mishandled and AC StL is one of them.

This also could put a damper on Canadian expansion in the NASL as well.

[jloome]

That would be nice if MLS was looking for a D2 league to call their own, but they aren't. In fact MLS is staying waaaaaay back from this hot mess. If you replace MLS with USL and D2 with NASL then I think your statement has weight to it.

I do think that people forget that the NASL was a rush job and when that happens a few things get mishandled and AC StL is one of them.

This also could put a damper on Canadian expansion in the NASL as well.

I have some inside insight that would confirm your contention that much of it is being rushed, or handled without much concern for best practices.

[devioustrevor]

I find it hilarious that Anheuser-Busch or InBev or whoever it was gave AC St. Louis their stadium for free and that it is that stadium that has them in financial trouble.

[Keystone FC]

I find it hilarious that Anheuser-Busch or InBev or whoever it was gave AC St. Louis their stadium for free and that it is that stadium that has them in financial trouble.

I think that Toronto could have EASILY been in St.L position. Does St.L have a soccer fan base...yes, does it have soccer players from the area that play pro and for the national side...yes, is there a deep rooted soccer history...yes, but even with all of that if there is not major backing from a owner who has either the knowhow or the deep pockets to put a good product on the field or market it properly then it goes nowhere.
People give MLSE a hard time but if it wasn't for the fact that they have the resources to produce a marketing scheme that can draw people to the stadium then TFC would be on MLS Rumors everyday with a 'source' saying they are moving or about to fold.
There are other points that I think have lead to the St.L position but I think those are the main ones.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

....and that Baltimore might be right behind them.

Not good. Presumably MLS needs a second division at some point for developmental purposes -- or at least a reserve league.

http://www.soccermontreal.net/2010/05/bush-league-tales-ac-st-louis-to-fold.html

Does anyone think relegation (with parachute) would be a viable option in this set up?

[Beach_Red]

Does anyone think relegation (with parachute) would be a viable option in this set up?


No. Soccer is just not nearly popular enough for teams to survive in that model. For relegation to work you need more than 20 heavily-supported teams. What we have now are three or four well-supported teams. Maybe a couple more developing over the next few years.

But we're a long way away from more than ten teams that would survive relegtion in North America.

Besides, last year TFC wouldn't have been relegated so it would have been considered a "successful" season. It's tough enough to get owners willing to do what it takes to finish in the top 8, let's not give them the option of just not finishing in the last couple of places.

[king dave]

This is argueably the best thread I have come across on this board in a while.
Thanks J.
Lot's of info here from a guy a bit closer to the action:thumbsup:
Keep it up Jodie!
KD.

[Gazza_55]

No. Soccer is just not nearly popular enough for teams to survive in that model. For relegation to work you need more than 20 heavily-supported teams. What we have now are three or four well-supported teams. Maybe a couple more developing over the next few years.

But we're a long way away from more than ten teams that would survive relegtion in North America.

Besides, last year TFC wouldn't have been relegated so it would have been considered a "successful" season. It's tough enough to get owners willing to do what it takes to finish in the top 8, let's not give them the option of just not finishing in the last couple of places.

This.

Plus the current owners who survive the drop would have to cut a huge cheque to the relegated clubs and I don't see that ever happening. Can you imagine what the value of TFC would be if we were relegated and stayed in D2 for a couple years?

[Toronto_Bhoy]

No. Soccer is just not nearly popular enough for teams to survive in that model. For relegation to work you need more than 20 heavily-supported teams. What we have now are three or four well-supported teams. Maybe a couple more developing over the next few years.

But we're a long way away from more than ten teams that would survive relegtion in North America.

Besides, last year TFC wouldn't have been relegated so it would have been considered a "successful" season. It's tough enough to get owners willing to do what it takes to finish in the top 8, let's not give them the option of just not finishing in the last couple of places.

Then why become part of a MLS Tier Two?

"What's in it for me? I'm happy doing what I have with the USL."

[Keystone FC]

No. Soccer is just not nearly popular enough for teams to survive in that model. For relegation to work you need more than 20 heavily-supported teams. What we have now are three or four well-supported teams. Maybe a couple more developing over the next few years.

But we're a long way away from more than ten teams that would survive relegtion in North America.

Besides, last year TFC wouldn't have been relegated so it would have been considered a "successful" season. It's tough enough to get owners willing to do what it takes to finish in the top 8, let's not give them the option of just not finishing in the last couple of places.


This.

Plus the current owners who survive the drop would have to cut a huge cheque to the relegated clubs and I don't see that ever happening. Can you imagine what the value of TFC would be if we were relegated and stayed in D2 for a couple years?

Not to mention that alot of these Div II clubs are playing at large high schools or small colleges that are not set up for major soccer specific matches.
Now if a majority of these clubs had their own stadium and had a good revenue stream there may be a conference or two about the possibility of this happening but as the current structure stands....no.

[Keystone FC]

Does anyone think relegation (with parachute) would be a viable option in this set up?
I'll just say this. If MLS were to create a MLS 2 with the USL/NASL it would drain whatever resources it has just to get the thing off the ground and would be a constant drain on the finances to MLS for years to come.
And with that said I do believe it would stifle any major growth of the game in the US as MLS would be the know all, say all, control all of soccer in the States. Everything would have to go through USSF AND MLS for approval since USL, which would be MLS 2, is the major source for developmental soccer in the states with its' PDL, Super-20, and Super Y leagues.

[rocker]

be thankful our team can't be relegated.

[keem-o-sabi]

It's funny how everyone has been all pissy that STL wasn't an expansion team in the last two rounds of it as they 'had the money'.....Don't know if you really caught wind of most of the piss and vinegar that was directed at MLS up here as there was a lot of it in the States about the decision not to award them a group. Glad MLS is really doing it's due diligence on the owners....maybe the premiership should pay attention.

[ginkster88]

It's funny how everyone has been all pissy that STL wasn't an expansion team in the last two rounds of it as they 'had the money'.....Don't know if you really caught wind of most of the piss and vinegar that was directed at MLS up here as there was a lot of it in the States about the decision not to award them a group. Glad MLS is really doing it's due diligence on the owners....maybe the premiership should pay attention.

Who was "all pissy"? From what I recall the consensus on here was that St. Louis was never a real option for a franchise, only Philly, Montreal, Vancouver, Portland, Miami and the strange Ottawa bid. St. Louis never had the money and was never a real consideration.

[Keystone FC]

Who was "all pissy"?
People in St. Louis, US soccer 'pureists'.


From what I recall the consensus on here was that St. Louis was never a real option for a franchise, only Philly, Montreal, Vancouver, Portland, Miami and the strange Ottawa bid. St. Louis never had the money and was never a real consideration.
Actually, I think Philly was biggest surprise of the bunch.
St. Louis had an owner in hand, an approved SSS community in Collinsville, Ill, and the backing of Busch Brewing, but that's ALL that they had and Garber wanted more. More than just one owner, a plan to build a SSS OUTSIDE of St. Louis and not even Missouri, and one sponsor.
If Garber was going to put a club in St. Louis then it was going to need to be one of the strongest franchises in the league. If MLS couldn't survive in the 'soccer Mecca of America' then how could it maintain a league altogether, and that would be the headlines for all soccer haters in the states.
I think Garber wanted St. Louis to look like Seattle as far as ownership, sponsorship, and marketing but none of those things happened.
This is where the 'if' factor comes into play but as we all know 'ifs' just turn out to be the dreams of those who want more of what they can't have.

[jloome]

Then why become part of a MLS Tier Two?

"What's in it for me? I'm happy doing what I have with the USL."

Ease of player movement. With no reserve league, a lot of younger MLS players will have a place to start week in and out on callups/senddowns/loans.

[Redcoe15]

People in St. Louis, US soccer 'pureists'.


Actually, I think Philly was biggest surprise of the bunch.
St. Louis had an owner in hand, an approved SSS community in Collinsville, Ill, and the backing of Busch Brewing, but that's ALL that they had and Garber wanted more. More than just one owner, a plan to build a SSS OUTSIDE of St. Louis and not even Missouri, and one sponsor.
If Garber was going to put a club in St. Louis then it was going to need to be one of the strongest franchises in the league. If MLS couldn't survive in the 'soccer Mecca of America' then how could it maintain a league altogether, and that would be the headlines for all soccer haters in the states.
I think Garber wanted St. Louis to look like Seattle as far as ownership, sponsorship, and marketing but none of those things happened.
This is where the 'if' factor comes into play but as we all know 'ifs' just turn out to be the dreams of those who want more of what they can't have.
Soccer purists in the U.S. look at St. Louis the same way hockey fans in Canada look at cities like Hamilton, Winnipeg, and Quebec City. They believe that a large city that loves its sport should be represented at the highest ranks in the professional league regardless.

I feel bad for the soccer fans in St. Louis. That city has deep roots in the game. But it mean nothing if you don't have deep pocketed investors willing to put their capital up for a team. And, the more I'm reading into this, the more I'm convinced that Jeff Cooper was nothing but a bag of hot wind who might have done some serious damage to St. Louis' title of soccer mecca of America.

[Keystone FC]

I feel bad for the soccer fans in St. Louis. That city has deep roots in the game. But it mean nothing if you don't have deep pocketed investors willing to put their capital up for a team. And, the more I'm reading into this, the more I'm convinced that Jeff Cooper was nothing but a bag of hot wind who might have done some serious damage to St. Louis' title of soccer mecca of America.

I think it all depends on how AC StL is handled in the coming months. If they fold up I do believe how the fold will be a factor in weather they get another crack at a franchise. If they:
A) Do it badly by
1) Just close up shoppe
2) Can't get ahold of anyone
3) Nothing is said to the press about the fold
Then I would think the chances of a another 'from scratch' soccer club in StL is very slight (depending on ownership, venue, and league).

A) Do it professionally by
1) Make an announcement
2) Refund STH money
3) Convey how the fold happened
4) Make some reference to possibly returning or restructuring.
Then I think there will possibly be another club in the USL or NASL ranks.

There is also another possibilty but I haven't heard anything about it but:

C) New Ownership
1) Comes in and keeps the franchise afloat for another season
2) Closes up shoppe but makes statement that team will return with new management and new name.

There will always be soccer in StL, that's a given, but at what level will people support it and investors take a chance on it is the question.
Before all of this the St. Louis Lions (USL PDL) made reference to moving up in ranks to get to either USL 2 or USL 1 status. Is that dream still in the works? Not sure but if they can maintain a good working relationship with the city and create a solid fan base then they could be an answer to the soccer problem in StL, but I wouldn't be surprised if they put those plans on the backburner IF AC StL fold. This community has been burned too many times to just throw their support behind the 'next' pro soccer team in the city.

[jloome]

Women's team folded today. Men's team looks likely to survive for at least another week.

[ag futbol]

Well this is not good.

Not sure if Garber + company understand the pressure the product is under right now with all the expansion going on plus the trouble with D2.

Taking kids out of NCAA isn't going to cut it. You just need a really robust skill set developed by the time you're 18-19... amateur play + university soccer with crack rules is not going to develop enough talent to stock the league once it has 20 teams.

[TFCUNITED]

Shame what's going to happen to St. Louis, I always heard so many good things about them being a good city.

[jloome]

Well this is not good.

Not sure if Garber + company understand the pressure the product is under right now with all the expansion going on plus the trouble with D2.

Taking kids out of NCAA isn't going to cut it. You just need a really robust skill set developed by the time you're 18-19... amateur play + university soccer with crack rules is not going to develop enough talent to stock the league once it has 20 teams.

I don't disagree, but I think the on-field product is just one issue relative to the general lack of professionalism within the constraints of the economics of division 2.

The primary issue has to be getting investors in North American soccer to understand there are several areas that must be focussed on, and upon which money must be spent to be made.

THe continuing mistake has been to try to grow it "organically", starting slowly in each community and trying to build it as a family activity or extension of amateur soccer ( as with baseball and football) , instead of capturing the key demographic of hardcore football fans that is much larger in each community than is currently understood (because most of the teams they support are overseas.)

Roster considerations are importamt, for sure -- and in particular the imbalance of costs of front office and their relative productivity versus the onfield product -- but it also would include promotional models relative to supporters groups, long-term structural integration between a club's youth development and that at the provincial/state level, and the development of a commercial brand that respects culture and tradition.

These are the reasons Toronto and Seattle have succeeded. Unfortunatly, the type of people trying to convince these investors to see the big picture are usually tactless loudmouths like me.

It'll take someone with an understanding of footie culture to be the catalyst for the investor or group for it work properly, and usually, that's not the case. So many of the people involved in steering the development of these clubs has effectively been flying blind.

But that's human nature. THey got into the game by schmoozing or being general sports businessmen, but soccer is a different beast altogether. As is always the case, that understanding will come with time, as people adapt the best practises adopted in successful cities. But businesspeople are all about getting along to getting along and not rocking the boat, so change comes incrementally.

Give it 20 years and we'll probably have three good solid pro divisions in North America. But it'll take that long.

[Keystone FC]

Women's team folded today. Men's team looks likely to survive for at least another week.
And now all eyes are on Baltimore.

[Keystone FC]

The primary issue has to be getting investors in North American soccer to understand there are several areas that must be focussed on, and upon which money must be spent to be made.
That seems to be one of the main issues when talking about sponsorship and advertising. Soccer, right now, is just not as high profile as baseball, football, basketball, and yes even hockey. The people who start a club like AC StL do it because they love the game and not to make a buck. The old addage is how do you become a millionaire in soccer? You start off by being a billionaire.



THe continuing mistake has been to try to grow it "organically", starting slowly in each community and trying to build it as a family activity or extension of amateur soccer ( as with baseball and football) , instead of capturing the key demographic of hardcore football fans that is much larger in each community than is currently understood (because most of the teams they support are overseas.)
Welllllllllll....it all depends on the community and it depends on what format the product is being presented.
There are a huge number of factors that go into weather the community is treated to mascot t-shirt tossings to the Numa Numa song or supporter sections that serve beer.


Roster considerations are importamt, for sure -- and in particular the imbalance of costs of front office and their relative productivity versus the onfield product
This is where I think a major improvement has occured. Clubs are now looking to the local youth for talent and starting youth clubs within their organization. This means more money is coming in for tryout fees and youth clinics. It also means more staff for coaching, marketing, etc...but the money coming in from a number of youth clubs from U-7 to U-19 more than makes up for the money spent on additions. Plus, coming up through the youth system can also mean less time scouting other clubs in far off places.
I have also seen a substancial rise in the number of independant select traveling youth clubs which lends to the problem of roster problems.


Give it 20 years and we'll probably have three good solid pro divisions in North America. But it'll take that long.
I'd say 10-15 but that's if the USL/NASL thing comes off without a hitch, and seeing as it looks like the USL will get the nod for Div. II status, and if USL 2 can regain some lost clubs, I can see it happen.

[jloome]

Welllllllllll....it all depends on the community and it depends on what format the product is being presented.
There are a huge number of factors that go into weather the community is treated to mascot t-shirt tossings to the Numa Numa song or supporter sections that serve beer.

This is the only area where I'd vociferously disagree. Unless you're talking about very small cities, the success we've seen in Toronto and Seattle has been founded on bringing over existing football fans. There's no doubt, when you consider the season tickets vs attendance ratios of those clubs versus others, that these are not casuals filling out he crowd.

If you have a city big enough to host an NHL team, you have a city big enough to host an MLS team, plain and simple. There is that much of the culture untapped in urban North America.

And I'd say it's equally true that slightly smaller cities, the size that support AHL and minor league baseball, could support division 2 at a competitive financial level.

[Cas87]

....and that Baltimore might be right behind them.

Not good. Presumably MLS needs a second division at some point for developmental purposes -- or at least a reserve league.

http://www.soccermontreal.net/2010/05/bush-league-tales-ac-st-louis-to-fold.html

For what its worth this is what I think should happen with Division II:

A) MLS should buyout the USL and NASL people and form the US Division II league
B) With the exception of Vancouver, Portland, and Montreal plan to give Div. II teams to potential expansion spot (for 5-10 years from now)
C) Do allocation NBDL style with current MLS teams allowed to drop 4 players max to their allocated team (the rest of the rosters will be the fringe MLS guys)


And thats how you have proper structure without the European style that some want, but most don't

[__wowza]

you'll get a lot more MLS players out on loans so that they can still play competitively even if it's not in the MLS.. but at the same time this won't happen for a very, very long time.

[Keystone FC]

This is the only area where I'd vociferously disagree. Unless you're talking about very small cities, the success we've seen in Toronto and Seattle has been founded on bringing over existing football fans. There's no doubt, when you consider the season tickets vs attendance ratios of those clubs versus others, that these are not casuals filling out he crowd.
In the comparison between Toronto and Seattle there are some very close simularities but then there are extreme differences as well. But, again, each city will be different in it's acceptance of a club based on a number of criteria. If every MLS city has a huge soccer fan base then why is Dallas and NY struggling at the ticket office? Again, stadium location, team indentity, winning seasons, marketing, etc come into factor.


If you have a city big enough to host an NHL team, you have a city big enough to host an MLS team, plain and simple. There is that much of the culture untapped in urban North America.
I'm not buying this one or Pittsburgh would be in the MLS right now and you can't compare support for a club in a totally different sport for the assumption that they will support a soccer club.
Also, a city that has a NHL club might have 2, 3, or even 4 sports franchises already established in that city and to bring in a soccer club may be a gate success at first may become a hasbeen if the team doesn't win, or is not marketed properly, or plays in a high school stadium.


And I'd say it's equally true that slightly smaller cities, the size that support AHL and minor league baseball, could support division 2 at a competitive financial level.
Now this could be considered a 'truism' of sorts. Look at Charleston, S.C. with the Battery (USL 2), Stingrays (ECHL), and River Dogs (MiLB). All of the clubs do well and all of them are considered minor league and so they can be priced for everyone to enjoy ALL the clubs. But again, I do believe that there are certain factors that a Masters in Sports Marketing is useless unless you also have a psychology degree to get into the minds of the people you are about to entice to come to your games. The Battery took a huge risk in building that SSS but it has paid off because of an owner who has soccer ties and knows the game, a fanbase that is very interested in the sport, a city that attracts visitors constantly throughout the year, the 'Southern Hospitality factor', and propbably a few I missed.

I do think that you must have certain criteria for a franchise to exist but after that alot comes down to sweat, luck, and few lucky breaks here and there. Cause the fans are useless unless you have the money for a club. Your money is useless unless you have the fans to support your club. The fans and money is worthless unless you can produce a winner in a club.

[Keystone FC]

For what its worth this is what I think should happen with Division II:

A) MLS should buyout the USL and NASL people and form the US Division II league

I still say the money needed to buy the USL/NASL would drain MLS of its loose funds and create a drain on their cash flow for decades to the point MLS files for bankruptcy or releases the USL clubs and they are back where they started.

[jloome]

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/06/08/1964411/steve-ralston-re-joins-new-england-revolution

Ralston back to New England. Maybe he discovered working with Claude Anelka was more challenging than expected.

Not sure why, though. Maybe Claude's cheque didn't clear this time.

[Detroit_TFC]

Is C. Anelka even still there? He would be the first one I would unload in term of budget cuts. He must be costing them a mint, but he probably has a huge buyout clause in his contract. Screwed either way.

[jloome]

Is C. Anelka even still there? He would be the first one I would unload in term of budget cuts. He must be costing them a mint, but he probably has a huge buyout clause in his contract. Screwed either way.

The fact that they hired him in the first place goes a long way to illustrating their absence of professionalism. I'm guessing the web staff have been laid off , too, as the news on their site hasn't been updated since June 3.

[Brooker]

Is C. Anelka even still there? He would be the first one I would unload in term of budget cuts. He must be costing them a mint, but he probably has a huge buyout clause in his contract. Screwed either way.


Never even heard of him before and I just read this:


In 2004, tired of engineering transfers for his restless brother Nicolas and fed up with 'the crazy things' he saw managers do, agent and DJ Claude Anelka decided he wanted to be a boss himself. With a 'mystery' backer, he offered £300,000 to any lower-league club who would let him be manager, and got a bite at Raith Rovers, in Scottish Division One. Citing Cruyff, Wenger and the boss of Chinawhite nightclub as influences, his philosophy and signings - some from the Paris seven-a-side leagues - brought Rovers just one point from 24 before he stepped aside.

1 point out of 24? Why the hell did St Louis hire him?

[jloome]

Never even heard of him before and I just read this:



1 point out of 24? Why the hell did St Louis hire him?

Welcome to the inanity of football ownership, where common sense and logic often fall victim to hype. His last name's Anelka. He probably convinved that schuyster Jeff Cooper he could get his brother to come over before he retires.