Second Division....

[jloome]

A sign of the times in the poorly run, barely noticed Second Division, or just bad weather:

From the NASl website

"The Rhinos distributed 8,754 tickets for the match versus AC St. Louis, due to the extremely inclement weather in the Rochester area though, only 1,447 brave souls showed up to watch Rochester win its first home match of the season."

Basically the same wind situation as Toronto.

Meanwhile, NSC Minnesota has averaged about 760 fans per game; Miami -- with Christian Gomez and Bryan Arguez -- is averaging around 1,000. Tampa's doing well. St. Louis started well but has dropped to around 2,000 per game, same as Austin.

When are these clubs going to learn they have to encourage supporter culture to create the right environment for people to enjoy the game (which, I'd hold, is doubly true when the quality is lower)? Instead, we have the same issue North American soccer has always has: a bunch of generally well--intentioned owners firing off in different directions, ineffectually.

[kodiakTFC]

the Rhinos have averaged 4500 for years so theres not a big problem there. Minnesota's attendance is actually around 750 this year and unfortunately they've had plenty of games so its a good indicator. I'm happy for Tampa that they drew 8000 but I seriously doubt it holds up and I bet we see them average around normal second division teams, thats about 4500.

The second division is in big trouble because they are losing their three biggest markets in the next two years, it will be very interesting to see what comes of it.

[NF-FC]

Rochester used to draw 12000+, so they are in a spot of trouble

[TorCanSoc]

Soccer's a summer viewing sport in the states. It will pick up. Personally I like reviving the NASL as a marketing tool. And jloome is right. Start with a supporter's culture and let it grow organically after that. But what do I know.

[jloome]

Soccer's a summer viewing sport in the states. It will pick up. Personally I like reviving the NASL as a marketing tool. And jloome is right. Start with a supporter's culture and let it grow organically after that. But what do I know.

Thought I notice Miami has retooled and refocussed its website on supporters and a more professional appearance. That's optimistic.

http://www.miamifc.com/

[kodiakTFC]

Rochester used to draw 12000+, so they are in a spot of trouble

when was this?

[kodiakTFC]

I just checked, Rochester averaged 6.5k last year and 7k before. Thats pretty impressive but I don't have any numbers from prior to 08.

Edit: spoke to soon, their Wikipedia shows a history of averaging 10k.

[CoachGT]

I was near Rochester last weekend and fully intended on taking in that match. But standing through a tournament outdoors all afternoon pretty much "talked" me out of it. High winds, horizontal sleet and temperatures dropping to near 0 by 5:30PM made the decision easy.

[SoccMan]

The Rochester Rhinos back in the late 1990's and up to about 2004 would on average get anywhere between 11,000 to about over 13,000 a game, they played there games at a new minor league baseball stadium Frontier Field in downtown Rochester that had a capacity of just over 13,000 people and it was pretty full for most games. I attended many games there just for the fact that it was just a little over a two hour drive from Toronto and it was nice watching a pro soccer game with a full house in attendance. The Toronto Lynx at the time who played in the same league were getting barely about a 1,000 people or less to their games in the same league, the Lynx first started at the old Varsity Stadium drawing flies and then moved to that bush league stadium in Etobicoke, Centenial Stadium with a capacity of just about 2,000 people but the Lynx barely got 500 people to their games at Centenial Stadium. Therefore, it was quite a contrast in attendance between Rochester and Toronto back then. The Rhinos moved down the street into a brand new soccer specific stadium with a capacity of close to 13,000,however, for some unknown reason their attendance actualy dropped once they moved into their new soccer stadium in I think around 2005 which was literaly just a few minutes drive from the baseball stadium they were playing in and getting great crowds,very wierd.

[Blizzard]

The Rochester Rhinos back in the late 1990's and up to about 2004 would on average get anywhere between 11,000 to about over 13,000 a game, they played there games at a new minor league baseball stadium Frontier Field in downtown Rochester that had a capacity of just over 13,000 people and it was pretty full for most games. I attended many games there just for the fact that it was just a little over a two hour drive from Toronto and it was nice watching a pro soccer game with a full house in attendance. The Toronto Lynx at the time who played in the same league were getting barely about a 1,000 people or less to their games in the same league, the Lynx first started at the old Varsity Stadium drawing flies and then moved to that bush league stadium in Etobicoke, Centenial Stadium with a capacity of just about 2,000 people but the Lynx barely got 500 people to their games at Centenial Stadium. Therefore, it was quite a contrast in attendance between Rochester and Toronto back then. The Rhinos moved down the street into a brand new soccer specific stadium with a capacity of close to 13,000,however, for some unknown reason their attendance actualy dropped once they moved into their new soccer stadium in I think around 2005 which was literaly just a few minutes drive from the baseball stadium they were playing in and getting great crowds,very wierd.

Yes, back in the good old days with the Rhinos drawing crowds in the range of what the Impact often does today, and with the soccer specific stadium built, many thought that Rochester was going to be a shoe-in for MLS but as time passed and it became more and more clear that Rochester was a market in which MLS had no interest, the decline set in.

It didn't help that there were cost overruns with the stadium (surprise, surprise).

I think I made it two games back in the baseball stadium days and there was a nice major league buzz to the event.

As the best franchises in Div2 (USL1/NASL) move up in the world, I wonder what the future of a Rochester is going to be.

It's certainly not like the old days in Rhinoland.

[Kaz]

Yes, back in the good old days with the Rhinos drawing crowds in the range of what the Impact often does today, and with the soccer specific stadium built, many thought that Rochester was going to be a shoe-in for MLS but as time passed and it became more and more clear that Rochester was a market in which MLS had no interest, the decline set in.

It didn't help that there were cost overruns with the stadium (surprise, surprise).

I think I made it two games back in the baseball stadium days and there was a nice major league buzz to the event.

As the best franchises in Div2 (USL1/NASL) move up in the world, I wonder what the future of a Rochester is going to be.

It's certainly not like the old days in Rhinoland.

It's too bad that USL isn't viewed the same way as Triple A is with Baseball, I remember going to Bison game in the 90s (my father dragged me to more sporting events) and it wasn't full but it wasn't empty by any stretch, no worse then one of the half dozen or so Jays games I was pulled to after the move to Skydome.

I guess one day but I guess that is the difference in North America vs the UK. You cheer for the home town team, and you favourite top level, unless your home town is playing there. In the US and Canada it isn't always that way...

Though in Hockey, I have watched standing room only for AA and AAA hockey teams, and hundreds of traveling fans. (Thorold Blackhawks for example)

More people need to cheer for their home town clubs, that is why I'm going to the Brampton Lions game tomorrow

[Oldtimer]

It's too bad that USL isn't viewed the same way as Triple A is with Baseball, I remember going to Bison game in the 90s (my father dragged me to more sporting events) and it wasn't full but it wasn't empty by any stretch, no worse then one of the half dozen or so Jays games I was pulled to after the move to Skydome.


...yet the Ottawa Lynx AAA baseball club drew a tiny attendance and ended up folding.

There's good sports markets and there's bad ones. Rochester may have more to do with the local economy than anything else.

[TFCWEST]

On the topic of 2nd division.. I don't get why Garber is pretty much committing to a 2nd NY team, when you have clubs like St. louis, that building from the ground up, and are looking quite promising. Why not take a wait and see approach.. instead of rushing into something? I like the AC STL website, its clean and very respectable looking.
http://www.ac-stlouis.com/

[CretanBull]

This isn't a good sign, but its not exactly a telling sign from the MLS perspective. Imagine if someone pointed to the attendence of Lynx games as a reason not to expand to Toronto.

[Kaz]

This isn't a good sign, but its not exactly a telling sign from the MLS perspective. Imagine if someone pointed to the attendence of Lynx games as a reason not to expand to Toronto.

The Irony is that prior to Toronto FC having an expansion side with 13,000 in the stands was considered successful.

[Blizzard]

...yet the Ottawa Lynx AAA baseball club drew a tiny attendance and ended up folding.

In the end they drew tiny crowds but in their early years they were setting league records. In 1993 they sold out 43 times and averaged just under 10k. It was all down hill after that sad to say.

[kodiakTFC]

The Irony is that prior to Toronto FC having an expansion side with 13,000 in the stands was considered successful.

Not much has really changed, i'd saw 15k is the average most teams aim for now.

[TorCanSoc]

I had honestly with the strong franchises, Vanc, Port, Mtl, and Rochester. That they could rival MLS. Why not? I was thinking an AFL/NFL type merger in the future. Complete with some kind of relegation scheme.

Dare to dream. Uh.....relegation we'd have been knocked out and locked out for 3 seasons.

[James17930]

It would so much better for everybody if this division came into MLS -- one united front in competition, marketing etc.

I believe that would significantly help attendance.

[Redcoe15]

On the topic of 2nd division.. I don't get why Garber is pretty much committing to a 2nd NY team, when you have clubs like St. louis, that building from the ground up, and are looking quite promising. Why not take a wait and see approach.. instead of rushing into something? I like the AC STL website, its clean and very respectable looking.
http://www.ac-stlouis.com/
It's all about the possible Benjamins in Garber's eyes.

While I'm not against having a second MLS team in New York, to do so when the first team, New York Red Bulls (is shite), can't get people out to their very impressive and easily accessible new stadium and can't generate a peep in attention, let alone a buzz, is highly arrogant on the part of Garber and company. And the excuses that those wanting a second team give for not supporting the first - it's too far away, it's in New Jersey, I won't support an energy drink, yadda-yadda-yadda - make them look like spoiled crybabies having a fit until mommy and daddy give them what they want.

Garber should wait until there's sufficient support for RBNY to squeeze out a number two. Bur he problably won't. And that will likely make MLS look foolish to those outside of soccer in North America.

[jloome]

It would so much better for everybody if this division came into MLS -- one united front in competition, marketing etc.

I believe that would significantly help attendance.

Direct affiliation is the north American way. THey really should arrange farm club status for most of the second div squads until their owners are willing to compete in the marketplace by spending what's required to build a proper level of professionalism.

Most of these clubs have a poor balance between admin costs, roster costs and marketing costs, however. It's not the marketplace that's sinking them, it's their own efforts.

I'd say it's the same with the examples from Rhinos and ottawa:if you've got the crowds, you have to keep them. It's not enough to just keep doing whatever it was that attracted them in the first place.

That means spending the excess ticket revenue on your team.

[Beach_Red]

I had honestly with the strong franchises, Vanc, Port, Mtl, and Rochester. That they could rival MLS. Why not? I was thinking an AFL/NFL type merger in the future. Complete with some kind of relegation scheme.

Dare to dream. Uh.....relegation we'd have been knocked out and locked out for 3 seasons.

Actually, no we wouldn't have been. And last year would have been considered a "success."

[James17930]

Direct affiliation is the north American way. THey really should arrange farm club status for most of the second div squads until their owners are willing to compete in the marketplace by spending what's required to build a proper level of professionalism.

Most of these clubs have a poor balance between admin costs, roster costs and marketing costs, however. It's not the marketplace that's sinking them, it's their own efforts.

I'd say it's the same with the examples from Rhinos and ottawa:if you've got the crowds, you have to keep them. It's not enough to just keep doing whatever it was that attracted them in the first place.

That means spending the excess ticket revenue on your team.

I remember Ben Knight brought up some good criticisms of the farm system once -- basically how the clubs are being handicapped in their drive to win since they have all these obligations from the parent club to 'play this player X amount of hours' or 'try out this system' etc. He talked about how this sort of set-up really prevents those lower teams from developing an independent image of their own -- something which is basically anathema to football supporter's culture.

A better system might simply be one of loans. So not direct affiliation, but a D1, D2 system wherein if the D1 clubs want their guy to extra playing time, they can loan him to a D2 club and hope he cracks the lineup there; if he can't, that probably tells them all they need to know about said player.

[Davenport]

Thought I notice Miami has retooled and refocussed its website on supporters and a more professional appearance. That's optimistic.

http://www.miamifc.com/

It's a level down, but this is a real bargain:

Season Ticket Holder (15 game regular season)

* $150 General Admission
Includes:

* Preferred Parking Pass
* Access to Game Day VIP Hospitality Tent
* Player and Coach Meet & Greet




Season Ticket Holder Benefits

* Flex! Your 15 tickets can be used in any combination for any regular season game(s): 1 per game, 15 for 1 game or any combination in between
* Savings over single game ticket pricing
* Miami FC Promotional Gift
* Invitation for Two to Miami FC Jersey Unveiling Party
* Invitation for Two to Miami FC World Cup Watch Party
* Miami FC Media Guide
* Bonus Game Tickets - Two Per STH (subject to availability)
* Priority Access to Playoffs, Friendly Matches and other Special Event Tickets
* Personal Account Representative
* General Parking (for GA)
* Miami FC 10% Merchandise Discount

Ticket Office
1-954-829-92-12

[Beach_Red]

Direct affiliation is the north American way.

Only for baseball and hockey. The NFL and NBA don't have farm systems or direct affiliation, they get almost all their players from the NCAA.

Soccer, of course, is going to have to find its own way, different from both the direct affiliation and NCAA methods, maybe taking the best from both somehow.

But NCAA success may be very important. Both the NFL and NBA really only became major leagues after their sports were well-established in college. The Rose Bowl is over a hundred years old, the Super Bowl is some Roman numeral I can never figure out, but not yet fifty. March Madness is probably a bigger event than the NBA finals.

For America, "Tier Two," or anything other than the top league is usually the college teams.

[Azerban]

* Invitation for Two to Miami FC Jersey Unveiling Party


ummm this is worth 50x2 dollars apparently, at least in toronto, how can this small club manage to include it in the season tickets??

[Davenport]

ummm this is worth 50x2 dollars apparently, at least in toronto, how can this small club manage to include it in the season tickets??
Simple.....they're not the money obsessed MLSE.
Soccer is a grass roots sport and that's the market they're going for in Miami.
They deserve all the luck in the world and with their massive Latin population they could have an MLS team in no time.

[jaahuuu]

I'm going to the Rhinos game this Wednesday. I bought a pair of tickets about a month ago, and the best I could get was a general admission section in the corner.

[jloome]

Simple.....they're not the money obsessed MLSE.
Soccer is a grass roots sport and that's the market they're going for in Miami.
They deserve all the luck in the world and with their massive Latin population they could have an MLS team in no time.

My understanding is their stadium location is really killing fan support. Apparently it's closer to Fort Lauderdale.

[keem-o-sabi]

when was this?

back when they started in the baseball park. I went to a few games then. They were an MLS candidate because of it, then they built the stadium and their entire org went to shite.

The previous owners were probably the most unethical people, left the city and state holding the bag on millions for the facility and also the facility the hockey and indoor lacrosse teams played in as they owned those too.

The new guy bought the team off of bankruptcy court.

But yes they used to draw a lot to the baseball stadium, then they moved 4-5 blocks away into the hardcore ghetto and no one wants to go. Tale of US Soccer, start to build stadiums, but they have put them in terrible locations that no one wants to go to.

[James17930]

^Rochester has a hardcore ghetto?

Didn't see that coming.