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View Full Version : Thoughts on the NCC (Paul B, please read)



James17930
05-12-2010, 09:47 PM
I've mentioned a couple of these things before, but I haven't seen any other discussion about them, so I thought I'd reiterate:

Play the NCC a Year in Advance

As in, the winner of the 2011 NCC qualifies for the 2012/13 Champions League, as opposed to how it is now where qualification happens in the same calendar year. This makes sense for a couple of reasons:

1 -- It would reign in fixture congestion. We could spread it out over the course of the year, a la the U.S. Open Cup, so that the whole thing wouldn't be bunched into one or two months like now. This would both be better for the clubs and players, and help to sustain interest over a longer period of time -- and with Edmonton joining next year, this point becomes more crucial. It would also provide better opportunity for a one-off championship game at some point down the road.

2 -- It would prevent any possible conflict between Superliga and CL qualification -- something which is possible now under the current format, and something which will become more relevant with Van. and Mtl. both coming to MLS.

Keep the Voyageurs Cup

I remember when the NCC was incepted, there was some talk about using the V. Cup trophy for only the first couple of years of the tourney and then possibly switching to another trophy. If this plan is still around, I would say nix it. The V. Cup trophy is really getting a lot of great history attached to it -- to add to what it already had before -- and I think it would be great to keep playing for it every year.

Carts
05-12-2010, 09:56 PM
I gotta say - these are very good recomendations...

There will always be fixture congestion no matter when the NCC winner qualifies - that's something (whether this idea or another one someone comes up with) that needs to be addresses as we move forward each year...

THEY MUST KEEP THE VOYAGEURS CUP... Hopefully, this is a no brainer...

Carts...

nascarguy
05-12-2010, 10:22 PM
Paul B has no say over what it's called

TFCRegina
05-12-2010, 10:25 PM
Paul B has no say, correct, but he can relay the views of people of the club to the higher ups at MLSE, who can lobby the CSA.

Keep the Voyageurs' Cup!

Don Julio
05-13-2010, 12:18 AM
The most important factor:

Get the NCC fixtures played away from the NHL playoffs. Canadian teams facing each other in any sport will gain serious interest when there isn't something "way more important" going on.

The Toronto Rock has the same problem.

Don Julio
05-13-2010, 12:21 AM
Oh, and they're obviously fond of the corporate sponsorship so how about "Nutrilite Cup"

I can't even remember what the fucking official name is half the time.

Oldtimer
05-13-2010, 05:37 AM
James, I have to say I disagree with the first suggestion. The way rosters work in MLS and the USSFD2, you could have a very different team from the one that won the Voyageurs Cup if you play the following year.

mlsintoronto
05-13-2010, 06:42 AM
I've heard no discussion about switching trophies. As far as I know the trophy for this tournament is the Voyageurs Cup. It has a great story that predates this tournament and is a testament to the grand daddies of Canadian football supporters. Sorry Voyageurs but I couldn't resist. :) these kids gotta learn their history.

on scheduling, I would disagree. The preliminary round (2 Wednesdays in July/aug) is followed by the 6 game group stage with crazy travel (6 Wednesdays in sept Oct). Given those circumstances I would advocate keeping the NCC tournament early.

MrHawk
05-13-2010, 06:53 AM
I'd like if the winner of the Nutrlite played the winner of CSL.

Granted the quality gap is fairly large. You could even include the winner of last CSL to play in the NCC............(i.e. 2010 winner plays in 2011). The attendance, concessions etc, could really benefit smaller clubs.

Stouffville_RPB
05-13-2010, 07:08 AM
on scheduling, I would disagree. The preliminary round (2 Wednesdays in July/aug) is followed by the 6 game group stage with crazy travel (6 Wednesdays in sept Oct). Given those circumstances I would advocate keeping the NCC tournament early.

This is a very good point. The winner of the tournament could be playing in the group stage while trying to qualify for the tournament at the same time. You would then have to balance scheduling NCC games with MLS games and CCL games and ALL of these competitions would be at the critical stages.

Imagine TFC trying to get into the playoffs, advance out of the group stage and win the V-Cup all at the same time. Your last 2 weeks of October could look like this:
Sat - MLS match vs RSL
Wed - NCC match vs Montreal
Sat - MLS match vs Chicago
Wed - CCL match vs Cruz Azul
Sat - MLS match vs LA

Would be great to watch but would burn out the team. You can't possibly get up for every game the way you should and performance in one, two or all of the competitions would suffer.

gmacpheetfc
05-13-2010, 07:50 AM
Once more Canadian teams come into the MLS and lowwer divisions I'd like to see two spots given to Canada for the CCL. Which I don't think Concacaf will object to, since we support it the best. With the two spots I'd like to see one go to the top finishing Canadian side in MLS regular season play and the other go the Canadian Cup Winner? Thoughts?

Shaughno
05-13-2010, 07:53 AM
I'd like if the winner of the Nutrlite played the winner of CSL.

Granted the quality gap is fairly large. You could even include the winner of last CSL to play in the NCC............(i.e. 2010 winner plays in 2011). The attendance, concessions etc, could really benefit smaller clubs.


Now there's a proper idea. Get it situated more like an FA Cup than a League Cup. ;)

MrHawk
05-13-2010, 07:57 AM
Now there's a proper idea. Get it situated more like an FA Cup than a League Cup. ;)

Sarcasm or not, I like it :)

Even if you threw some like revenue sharing to the smaller CSL clubs........now I'm just being outlandish.

McBrace
05-13-2010, 07:57 AM
What happens if TFC Academy win the CSL? Would you like to see TFC VS TFC?

Shaughno
05-13-2010, 08:01 AM
Sarcasm or not, I like it :)

Even if you threw some like revenue sharing to the smaller CSL clubs........now I'm just being outlandish.

Totally serious dude. I know there's guys in the CSL that can play at the MLS level, so why not? Every once in a while semi-pro clubs take down teams multiple divisions above them in the FA Cup. I think it adds a real intensity to the tournament.

You know they wouldn't share revenue though LOL


What happens if TFC Academy win the CSL? Would you like to see TFC VS TFC?

Hells yeah, it'd be great experience for the kids!

MrHawk
05-13-2010, 08:08 AM
I would like the TFC Academy vs TFC................why wouldn't it be a good match? The TFC Academy would get a chance to play their teammates........

The revenue sharing, even something like 1% of sales/concessions.........for every 1M made, 10K would go to help the CSL club (improve stadium, training facilities, equipment etc).

Steve
05-13-2010, 08:11 AM
I'd like if the winner of the Nutrlite played the winner of CSL.

Granted the quality gap is fairly large. You could even include the winner of last CSL to play in the NCC............(i.e. 2010 winner plays in 2011). The attendance, concessions etc, could really benefit smaller clubs.

I like the idea of the winner of the CSL playing in the tourney, but why give them a berth to the final? Here is the way I'd like to see it played out in the future:

3 MLS teams (obviously Van, Mon, TFC)
1 CSL team (winner of last year)
2 NASL (or whatever they call themselves) teams, I think Edmonton is going to enter, and Ottawa might still be on the horizon?

2 groups of three teams each, home and home round robin, winner of the groups go to final match (single game with home field advantage going to better record last year), second in groups go to 3rd place match, losers in group play each other for bragging rights.

Each group is seeded according to last years results, with the permanent teams (MLS and NASL) based on personal results, and CSL team based on last year's CSL team result. 1 group would have:

1st
4th
5th

other group would be

2nd
3rd
6th

Again, based on the 3 one off matches after the round robin. This setup would have exactly one more game than we currently have (5 for each team instead of 4), and add in the benefit of an exciting one off game for the cup, so it can be celebrated as a cup should (and not after a tie, for example, looking at you Montreal). Also, if more NASL teams were to want in, you could easily expand it by having a prelim round for them (top two teams get in, round robin or playoff style depending on the number of teams).

MrHawk
05-13-2010, 08:15 AM
Well you wouldn't put all CSL teams/NASL/USL/MLS teams in the NCC...........would you?

Unless you did it purely like the FA Cup

Inswingingwingman
05-13-2010, 08:31 AM
Been sitting on the sidelines, mostly taking chemo and radiation, but my observations so far on it ALL:
The team is coming around. This many games in such a short time is crazy.
The supporters look great, that shot with the flares made the game, forget about the rest.
The stands being empty like that was embarrassing. But had the leafs snuck in and did that there might be just the RPB and other supporters groups in BMO field, I'm thinking buying a 67 vintage car and sledge hammering it and driving it around with gold clubs painted on it. My other car is a Pepper white brand new mini cooper incase MLS in Toronto wants to pay to have the roof painted with the TFC logo!

On the other hand I gotta beat the cancer first before long term plans. I wanted to go to the opener, but that would have killed me for sure.

The ball possession game is going to be a huge factor. That's coaching. I also think if we teach the players that a 'Canadian' doesn't fake injury on the pitch and the message gets to the refs our team would be way better. Imagine some of those guys getting the elbow to the eye, going in for stitches aka Steve Nash and coming out because there were no more subs allowed...that's what we should do.

I personally think after seeing the minis in Toronto on TV, a good promotion would be to have them parade around the pitch on a dry day, with all the roofs having the TFC decal. What a great car. 20 years with a van stuck full of kids, now I'm stylin man.

I'm still watching. Nice to see the so hated Chad doing well, it's the system and the coach and the passing. Lets keep everyone healthy. Baby steps. A day with great weather, the gentle flapping of the flags, the fans packed in and the RPB light 20 flares and wave 400 flags. I'm there in spirit anyways guys.....even if it's on my high Def Rogers Sports Net Cable on the big screen tv..

And that game sucked. Efficient at times, but I was thinking about listening to Barry Manilow and drinking light beer, not AC/DC and pounding Harps. The show in the endzone was the game, and the tap in was the second highlight.. Keep up the good work.

Frick
05-13-2010, 08:47 AM
Since Paul is checking the thread,

What was the point having a press conference about wearing a star above the TFC crest during the NCC games if they aren't wearing it?

Also, wasn't there an email saying TFC will be wearing their greys for all the NCC games, yet they wore red (as they always should) last night?

sulfur
05-13-2010, 08:53 AM
Also, wasn't there an email saying TFC will be wearing their greys for all the NCC games, yet they wore red (as they always should) last night?
There was. My understanding was that there were issues with the Grey v Pink when it was aired on TV. Specifically that they looked almost identical on screen.

mlsintoronto
05-13-2010, 09:07 AM
There was. My understanding was that there were issues with the Grey v Pink when it was aired on TV. Specifically that they looked almost identical on screen.

Yes - that was the reason...we didnt see enough contrast on the grey vs pink so we voluntarily changed.

Also - the star appears over the crest in some collateral but not on the jersey. That is reserved for MLS cup only. We're working with the other teams on some other Championship designation on the jersey (maybe on the right side) but couldn't agree on anything in time for this year's tournament.

Frick
05-13-2010, 09:24 AM
There was. My understanding was that there were issues with the Grey v Pink when it was aired on TV. Specifically that they looked almost identical on screen.


Yes - that was the reason...we didnt see enough contrast on the grey vs pink so we voluntarily changed.

Also - the star appears over the crest in some collateral but not on the jersey. That is reserved for MLS cup only. We're working with the other teams on some other Championship designation on the jersey (maybe on the right side) but couldn't agree on anything in time for this year's tournament.

Thanks for clarifying guys.

James17930
05-13-2010, 10:01 AM
I've heard no discussion about switching trophies. As far as I know the trophy for this tournament is the Voyageurs Cup. It has a great story that predates this tournament and is a testament to the grand daddies of Canadian football supporters. Sorry Voyageurs but I couldn't resist. :) these kids gotta learn their history.

on scheduling, I would disagree. The preliminary round (2 Wednesdays in July/aug) is followed by the 6 game group stage with crazy travel (6 Wednesdays in sept Oct). Given those circumstances I would advocate keeping the NCC tournament early.

But if the NCC is spread out from Mar to Nov., I really don't it's going to be that much of an issue scheduling around the CL. (that's even assuming the Canadian team gets out of the Prelims).

Also -- there's still the issue of Superliga. MLS has said they don't want the same teams in both tourneys. But, because of the way the NCC is currently scheduled, we could qualify for Superliga the year before through MLS, then qualify for the CL the same year through the NCC.

Conflict.

J .
05-13-2010, 10:48 AM
I've heard no discussion about switching trophies. As far as I know the trophy for this tournament is the Voyageurs Cup. It has a great story that predates this tournament and is a testament to the grand daddies of Canadian football supporters. Sorry Voyageurs but I couldn't resist. :) these kids gotta learn their history.

on scheduling, I would disagree. The preliminary round (2 Wednesdays in July/aug) is followed by the 6 game group stage with crazy travel (6 Wednesdays in sept Oct). Given those circumstances I would advocate keeping the NCC tournament early.


I think I can finally agree with a FO rep on something

:drinking:

anto7
05-13-2010, 11:19 AM
Yes - that was the reason...we didnt see enough contrast on the grey vs pink so we voluntarily changed.

Also - the star appears over the crest in some collateral but not on the jersey. That is reserved for MLS cup only. We're working with the other teams on some other Championship designation on the jersey (maybe on the right side) but couldn't agree on anything in time for this year's tournament.
Happy you made the change. As someone who is colour blind, I had great difficulty seeing any difference between the 2 shirts when I was at the first game.
Thanks

Kaz
05-13-2010, 12:08 PM
There used to be a Open Canada Cup. I'd like to see that brought back for the Tier 3 and below, and have the winner of the get a berth in the NCC.

If we pick up Edmonton FC, a Hamilton, or Ottawa NASL team into the NCC that would give 5 teams, and the OCC winner would make 6.

I'd like to see the OCC qualify for the next years Voygers Cup as that would be too much congestion unless done in early April.

have the CONCACAF games played alongside the MLS as the MLS fixtures are already fairly spread out. Don't most other leagues play more then 30 matches?

Just the MLS needs to raise the Cap enough to add proper depth to the teams to compete a little better.

So Ideally.
2011 OCC winner gets a berth in the 2012 NCC.

NCC stays as a home and away format and thus become 12 games.

CONCACAF finially gives Canada a berth into the CL Group stage automatically.

But for this to happen a Canadian Team needs to go to the Group Stage more then once every three years. Basically this means a Canadian Team would have to make it to the Group stage each year for the next 3 years at least. Had Toronto actually beat PR last year this would be closer to reality.

Roogsy
05-13-2010, 12:15 PM
There used to be a Open Canada Cup. I'd like to see that brought back for the Tier 3 and below, and have the winner of the get a berth in the NCC.

I really like this idea.

The tournament really needs a 4th team.

And it would infuse the tournament with the "cindarella story" and excitement each year.

James17930
05-13-2010, 12:17 PM
^^Guys, we've been over this a millions times.

Anything below Div. 2 does not have CONCACAF approved stadia. Their stadiums are simply too small, with not enough facilities, to host a CL game should they qualify. It's a non-starter at the moment. In the far future, sure, maybe.

Anyway, another point:

With MLS growing, that means more league games too -- 34 next year, right? That means more mid-week league games, which means less days to try and squeeze the NCC -- now a 6 game tourney for each team, with Edmonton joining -- into a few months.

I really think that with all this growth it's simply going to become impossible to do it all same calendar year.

Unless the NCC starts way back in March -- then it might be doable.

Cas87
05-13-2010, 01:27 PM
^^Guys, we've been over this a millions times.

Anything below Div. 2 does not have CONCACAF approved stadia. Their stadiums are simply too small, with not enough facilities, to host a CL game should they qualify. It's a non-starter at the moment. In the far future, sure, maybe.

Anyway, another point:

With MLS growing, that means more league games too -- 34 next year, right? That means more mid-week league games, which means less days to try and squeeze the NCC -- now a 6 game tourney for each team, with Edmonton joining -- into a few months.

I really think that with all this growth it's simply going to become impossible to do it all same calendar year.

Unless the NCC starts way back in March -- then it might be doable.

THe only thing I can think of in order to satisfy Vancouver and Toronto next year is to have the NCC on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and have MLS game on Thursday-Sunday
with the schedule according to what is the best travel. For example have TFC and Vancouver on Tuesday for the NCC then have Vancouver host/travel to Portland or Seattle and Toronto go to LA or RSL

Kaz
05-13-2010, 01:59 PM
Well first off the odds of a the Toronto Lynx in the PDL beating the Impact of MLS is unlikely just like it is in the US Open Cup which is in fact open to the same level of teams.

Second I'm sure there is something inside the Rules of the US Open Cup and the FA Cup that handles what would happen if a amateur side Lynch's Irish Pub FC actually won the the US Open. (it's an actual team that competed last year)

It would help promote the sport in small communities and would force the CSA to actually properly organize the leagues a bit better through out the country. And you could even add it as a rule that you need to have access to facilities with a minimum seated capacity if you win, and the Cities involved would have a year to prepare for having say Toronto FC show up to play in Thunder Bay, or Deer Lake, Newfoundland.

The system the US open uses actually is really good.

Roogsy
05-13-2010, 02:01 PM
With MLS growing, that means more league games too -- 34 next year, right? That means more mid-week league games, which means less days to try and squeeze the NCC -- now a 6 game tourney for each team, with Edmonton joining -- into a few months.

Not necessarily. They double up some games currently to "fill" the schedule. With more teams, they won't need to do anything other than to take some of those games out. We can have real "home and reverse" matches as opposed to an extra match here and there with NY or Columbus.

sulfur
05-13-2010, 02:18 PM
Not necessarily. They double up some games currently to "fill" the schedule. With more teams, they won't need to do anything other than to take some of those games out. We can have real "home and reverse" matches as opposed to an extra match here and there with NY or Columbus.
There are no extra games like that this year. 16 teams == 30 games.

Dozitwin
05-13-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm not sure how playing a year in advance would resolve fixture congestion. You would still have to play the tournament matches within a finite season, only you'd be playing them a year in advance. The matches will still have to be played regardless. The advantage would be that you could potentially schedule them over a longer period but again, the same number of matches still need to be played.

The other obstacle with switching to a year in advance scenario is how do you get to the year in advance without either skippping a year (whoever wins this year quals for this year and next) or you run the tournament twice and cram more games in to settle the qualifier for the current year and the next year.

The problem is that when they announced the champions league the CSA had to almost immediately implement a format to choose a qualifier for that year. There wasn't an opportunity to think a year in advance.

Just my thoughts

Dozitwin
05-13-2010, 03:07 PM
Not necessarily. They double up some games currently to "fill" the schedule. With more teams, they won't need to do anything other than to take some of those games out. We can have real "home and reverse" matches as opposed to an extra match here and there with NY or Columbus.

Actually this year we are at 16 teams in the league so we are only playing each team twice (home&away). So adding Van & Portland should mean 4 additional games next season.

***CRAP had a read one more post I would have seen this has been posted all ready.

rocker
05-13-2010, 03:15 PM
MLS had a 32 game season before TFC arrived... so two more games than that shouldn't be a massive issue. They found a way to do it back then, and back then I believe the season started a bit later.

the friendly game in our tickets is "worth" 2 games apparently. What I'd like to see is ditching the friendly altogether, and splitting its value into the Portland/Shitecaps home games. So in the end BMO field would only need 1 extra date to make the new games fit... and the sked would remain balanced (until Montreal screws it all up).

James17930
05-13-2010, 09:39 PM
I'm not sure how playing a year in advance would resolve fixture congestion. You would still have to play the tournament matches within a finite season, only you'd be playing them a year in advance. The matches will still have to be played regardless. The advantage would be that you could potentially schedule them over a longer period but again, the same number of matches still need to be played.

The other obstacle with switching to a year in advance scenario is how do you get to the year in advance without either skippping a year (whoever wins this year quals for this year and next) or you run the tournament twice and cram more games in to settle the qualifier for the current year and the next year.

The problem is that when they announced the champions league the CSA had to almost immediately implement a format to choose a qualifier for that year. There wasn't an opportunity to think a year in advance.

Just my thoughts

1> Because it could be played from Mar. to Nov. instead of May to Jun. as it is now. Obviously much more time.

2> Ah ha! I was waiting for someone to realize this -- you get a gold star! Yes, this is the one potential big problem of switching formats now; they'd basically have to have two NCC tournaments in one year to get onto the new format.

So -- better to do it now with fewer teams then wait a few years with Ottawa in there to and find it undoable.

KezmanCCCC
05-14-2010, 01:06 AM
when else shoould we have the NCC matches? in the middle of the fall or winter when its -15 outside? i think the way it is now is quite fine...

James17930
05-14-2010, 02:16 AM
^ I've said about five times between Mar. and Nov.

I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

Kaz
05-15-2010, 01:09 PM
^ I've said about five times between Mar. and Nov.

I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

Isn't Marieville east of Novar? shouldn't it be between Nov and Mar?

TFCRegina
05-15-2010, 01:27 PM
^^Guys, we've been over this a millions times.

Anything below Div. 2 does not have CONCACAF approved stadia. Their stadiums are simply too small, with not enough facilities, to host a CL game should they qualify. It's a non-starter at the moment. In the far future, sure, maybe.


I'm sure if worst came to worst they could use a major stadium in one of the many cities in Canada. CONCACAF usually blocks teams in countries in central american countries which can't find suitable stadia.

But these are usually countries which have extremely poor national teams and national stadiums.

Canada has a number of CFL stadiums, worst comes to worst, where teams could move to play.

In some countries in the the non-North American countries, they move from their home stadium to the national one.

Obviously if you're from Toronto and you win the tournament and you're not TFC, you try to get into the Rogers Centre or BMO Field.

So I don't think this is a big issue at all, we have plenty of stadiums which can be used.