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denime
05-03-2010, 05:28 AM
Mornin'


What was Preki thinking? (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2010/05/02/13800791.html)


Preki Post Game TFC TV (http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=1865)


Bad day at the office for Preki (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/james-on-soccer/bad-day-at-the-office-for-preki/article1554032/)



SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshinegirl/)

mastermixer
05-03-2010, 06:24 AM
Although a little over-dramatic, I kinda agree with Wheeler today. The only problem is no one in the front office of MLSE has any clue what good soccer is supposed to look like so nothing is gonna change. If tfc was run by someone with even a little soccer experience this would not be acceptable. The suits only see the balance sheets and prob haven't watched a minute of tfc soccer.

denime
05-03-2010, 07:20 AM
Well I have to disagree with Wheeler,he just bitching as usual when it comes to TFC.and how much he know about soccer is questionable too,definitely after reading this article.

However I agree with P.James,his article has some very good points when it comes to tactic,(something that Wheeler has no clue about it).


Meanwhile, in the tactical department, the decision to drop off into a defensive posture using a 4-5-1 formation was a reasonable decision by Preki. One can suppose he did not bank on his team defending so poorly.

Tactic was simple keep the door closed for 45 minutes ,try to frustrate RSL and than bring DeRo,De Guzman and White in to do some damage with their fresh legs,however he did not calculate that Nana and Frei will take a first half of too and there goes you game plan.


At least one thing is for sure this is Preki's TEAM.

If MO still has to say who is playing,he would never ever try something like this,he has no balls for risky moves like one that Preki did vs RSL,and that's the good news as far I'm concern.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 07:23 AM
Agreed Denime. I didn't think it was a failed experiment in terms of tactics, it's just a shame the first 45 mins the team forgot what the fuck they were supposed to be doing.

scooter
05-03-2010, 07:24 AM
mornin d

pekduck
05-03-2010, 07:46 AM
Well I have to disagree with Wheeler,he just bitching as usual when it comes to TFC.and how much he know about soccer is questionable too,definitely after reading this article.

However I agree with P.James,his article has some very good points when it comes to tactic,(something that Wheeler has no clue about it).



Tactic was simple keep the door closed for 45 minutes ,try to frustrate RSL and than bring DeRo,De Guzman and White in to do some damage with their fresh legs,however he did not calculate that Nana and Frei will take a first half of too and there goes you game plan.


At least one thing is for sure this is Preki's TEAM.

If MO still has to say who is playing,he would never ever try something like this,he has no balls for risky moves like one that Preki did vs RSL,and that's the good news as far I'm concern.


Agreed Denime. I didn't think it was a failed experiment in terms of tactics, it's just a shame the first 45 mins the team forgot what the fuck they were supposed to be doing.


Agreed. The moment I saw the line up and Barret with the 'C', my guess was exactly the same. It was meant to grind out 0-0 in first half then go for 3 points with DeRo, JDG, and OBW.

It's a worthy ambitious gamble as the 1st half team at least got a good header from Nane saved. Too bad the mid field didn't do much to create any constructive movements and was pretty lax in defensive which voided this attempt.

2nd half with the midfield pylons gone and infusion of the triumvirates, we had created more chances and had one off the woodwork.

Not too shabby of a half. RSL was the better team, but at least it was not a total WTF game as we've seen in the past.

My 0.02.

CoachGT
05-03-2010, 07:50 AM
I can agree with James' comments, but think there is a ring of truth in Wheeler's as well. I wholeheartedly agree that Preki did not put his team into a position to compete Saturday. For a truly defensive posture, I would have expected Cronin to have seen some playing time (even a start) - he was as solid defensively as anyone in the midfield and isn't carrying around the baggage of a few cards like some of the other midfielders. But the players on the pitch were essentially Preki's "chosen ones" at the start Saturday.

I'm not sure any team in MLS can play in a defensive shell early in a game, and because of that, I believe that failure is not too strong a term. IMO, this was a mistake an experienced coach should not make in this type of league.

ginkster88
05-03-2010, 07:52 AM
Speaking of changing formations, did anyone see Seattle's 4-3-3 on Saturday night? I'd love to see something like that in TO.


Dero - OBW - Barrett
Labrocca - JDG - Gargan
Back Four

rocker
05-03-2010, 07:52 AM
speaking of tiredness, I thought De Ro looked exhausted in the last 30 minutes against Montreal... bad passes all over the place... not running as hard. he was gassed.
De Ro needed a rest for sure. I've heard some mention De Ro could have started and then be subbed off at the half -- but then you possibly reverse what happened... maybe take a lead in the first half but have the replacements bugger it up in the second half.

Bruce Arena did the away game defensive posture last year to great effect... got lots of ties in the early season on the road until reinforcements came at mid season.

pekduck
05-03-2010, 07:56 AM
I can agree with James' comments, but think there is a ring of truth in Wheeler's as well. I wholeheartedly agree that Preki did not put his team into a position to compete Saturday. For a truly defensive posture, I would have expected Cronin to have seen some playing time (even a start) - he was as solid defensively as anyone in the midfield and isn't carrying around the baggage of a few cards like some of the other midfielders. But the players on the pitch were essentially Preki's "chosen ones" at the start Saturday.

I'm not sure any team in MLS can play in a defensive shell early in a game, and because of that, I believe that failure is not too strong a term. IMO, this was a mistake an experienced coach should not make in this type of league.

I didn't think he intended the 4-5-1 as a pure defensive shell but to get more possession and control in midfield and get the lone hardworking Barrett to chase down the few chances. However, given the players started in midfield, they had not much of a clue to effectively execute the 4-5-1 and by default fell back to 0-1-9 in the first half.

You are right Coach, I forgot about Cronin, I think he would have been more effective than Sanyang in the first half.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 08:07 AM
If MO still has to say who is playing,he would never ever try something like this,he has no balls for risky moves like one that Preki did vs RSL,and that's the good news as far I'm concern.

Let's hope that Preki's experiments mostly work out, otherwise Mo might raise his head in the dressing room like he did with Cummins. That would be a disaster.

CoachGT
05-03-2010, 08:10 AM
Speaking of changing formations, did anyone see Seattle's 4-3-3 on Saturday night? I'd love to see something like that in TO.


Dero - OBW - Barrett
Labrocca - JDG - Gargan
Back Four

Sounds like the second half on Saturday to me.

Toronto_Bhoy
05-03-2010, 08:10 AM
Agree with Wheeler…

If your going to play the "lock the door for 45" card…you'd better have the cards to play the hand…and quite frankly…we don't.

The tactic isn't flawed…the tools are.

Honestly…does anyone here believe we can play that style with those two clown fullbacks? They're fuckin' clueless…

Steve
05-03-2010, 08:12 AM
speaking of tiredness, I thought De Ro looked exhausted in the last 30 minutes against Montreal... bad passes all over the place... not running as hard. he was gassed.
De Ro needed a rest for sure. I've heard some mention De Ro could have started and then be subbed off at the half -- but then you possibly reverse what happened... maybe take a lead in the first half but have the replacements bugger it up in the second half.

Bruce Arena did the away game defensive posture last year to great effect... got lots of ties in the early season on the road until reinforcements came at mid season.

I agree with resting DeRo for the first half (kind of). Yes, he is our only offensive threat this year, but if he needs the rest, he needs the rest. That said, I can't figure our resting JDG. From what we've heard, he's super fit (due to higher standards in la liga) and should be able to play through the game. If anything, I would say play JDG as our defensive midfielder for the first half (since he should know how to kill a game and would help push our team into more of a pressuring defense). After that, bring DeRo on at the half, keep JDG on for at least 15-20 minutes of the next half and see what happens.

Essentially, I can't find the reasoning in playing a defensive game, while sitting our DP who is an expert at playing a defensive game.

Edit: Also, given Cronin's performance last year as a defensive mid, I would have used this:

-------------Frei-------------
------------------------------
Hscanovic--Nana--Cann-Usanov
------------JDG----------------
-------Cronin---Sanyang-------
--LaBronca------------Saric/Nane
------------Barrett--------------


That way you have two defensive midfielders (Cronin and Sanyang) breaking up the play and playing a high pressure defense, and our DP stopping anything that gets through, and forming a link between the defense and the midfield, allowing us to take the pressure off once in a while (plus having the ability to spring Barrett if need be).

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 08:24 AM
Agree with Wheeler…

If your going to play the "lock the door for 45" card…you'd better have the cards to play the hand…and quite frankly…we don't.

And that falls on 2 people.

Mo and Preki.

A lot of people here seem to be giving Preki a pass on Saturday's game. That's garbage. Yes we should give him the year to show us what he can do, but there is no way in hell what he pulled on Saturday was a good idea in any way, shape or form and should get to "slide". There are no mulligans in professional sports. What you put out there better compete or it counts against you, pure and simple. This one checks off the "against" box in my running scorecard of Preki for this year.

Boneheaded decision, pure and simple. And to a degree, I think he wanted to go out and show that the team of guys he has chosen can go out and compete without the guys he hasn't brought in, namely Cronin, DeRo and JDG. That's just stupid. First off, JDG and DeRo are pretty much the only real "starters" we have (and Frei) and second, how the hell are you supposed to defend on your heels all game long? Unless you think you're the MLS equivalent of Mourinho and have a roster of stars, get your head out of the sand.

Carts
05-03-2010, 08:24 AM
Agree with Wheeler…

If your going to play the "lock the door for 45" card…you'd better have the cards to play the hand…and quite frankly…we don't.

The tactic isn't flawed…the tools are.

Honestly…does anyone here believe we can play that style with those two clown fullbacks? They're fuckin' clueless…

If you don't have the squad to play a certain style, formation, etc - then don't... That is bad decision making & bad coaching...

Sometimes thing look great on paper - but in reality they just don't work...

That's TFC quite alot... We don't have a deep enough squad to play like this, with two key men on the bench, for 45-minutes...

We don't have a deep enough squad with them in the lineup to play like that for 90-minutes...

The fact Preki can't see this is scary...

Carts...

mastermixer
05-03-2010, 08:27 AM
I don't agree with resting anyone at this point. We are only 5 games into the season with a week off to rest after RSL! If the players are tired already then there are some fitness issues.

ManUtd4ever
05-03-2010, 08:42 AM
And that falls on 2 people.

Mo and Preki.

A lot of people here seem to be giving Preki a pass on Saturday's game. That's garbage. Yes we should give him the year to show us what he can do, but there is no way in hell what he pulled on Saturday was a good idea in any way, shape or form and should get to "slide". There are no mulligans in professional sports. What you put out there better compete or it counts against you, pure and simple. This one checks off the "against" box in my running scorecard of Preki for this year.

Boneheaded decision, pure and simple. And to a degree, I think he wanted to go out and show that the team of guys he has chosen can go out and compete without the guys he hasn't brought in, namely Cronin, DeRo and JDG. That's just stupid. First off, JDG and DeRo are pretty much the only real "starters" we have (and Frei) and second, how the hell are you supposed to defend on your heels all game long? Unless you think you're the MLS equivalent of Mourinho and have a roster of stars, get your head out of the sand.

I would have preferred a more agressive strategy out of the gate as well to try and take advantage of RSL's depleted roster with key players being rested in the second half. That being said, Preki was man enough to admit that it was a flawed strategy in his post game interview. It all falls back on Mo for putting Preki in a position to experiment at this point in the season to determine what he has at his disposal. I suspect that was the last time we see Preki employ those tactics on the road...

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 08:44 AM
Experiments are for the preseason. Period.

And people wonder why some of us are so adamant that we go into preseason with a near-full roster? You just saw why. Beacuse lessons like these need to happen when they don't become part of the permanent record.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:47 AM
Experiments are for the preseason. Period.

And people wonder why some of us are so adamant that we go into preseason with a near-full roster? You just saw why. Beacuse lessons like these need to happen when they don't become part of the permanent record.


Stop living in the past for a second.



Ok, preseason is over. We still didn't have a team to work with. Now we do. So what do you propose? Only play DeRo/JDG/Attakora/Hscanovic/Usanov/Frei every week because you know their ability?

Away games in the MLS, are largely considered to be loss/draw games for the visitors. Preki knows this and tried something new in a game he was confidant we weren't going to get points from.

I'm ok with the idea, I just think it was poorly executed personally.

denime
05-03-2010, 08:49 AM
I don't agree with resting anyone at this point. We are only 5 games into the season with a week off to rest after RSL! If the players are tired already then there are some fitness issues.

So what if we are 5 games into a season when you have 7 games in May you have to look ahead.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:49 AM
So what if we are 5 games into a season when you have 7 games in May you have to look ahead.


...and this is why armchair managers don't end up managing REAL football clubs. ;)


:lol:

denime
05-03-2010, 08:50 AM
Experiments are for the preseason. Period.

And people wonder why some of us are so adamant that we go into preseason with a near-full roster? You just saw why. Beacuse lessons like these need to happen when they don't become part of the permanent record.


Roogsy take I hate Mo glasses off for a week or two and look at the big picture?

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 08:54 AM
My dislike of Preki has nothing to do with Mo. How is my statement unreasonable or illogical in any way?

But if you want me to look at the "big picture" then my comment does exactly that. I don't care who brings in the guys, do it in preseason. If then Preki is now bringing in players and not Mo, then I assume this was the case during preseason as well.

There are only 2 people in this world to blame for having a joke of a roster during Preseason. Mo and Preki. Who is to blame more? I dunno. But neither has impressed me this season.

This is about evidence D. If you want me to take off my biased "glasses", you need to have tangible evidence that will disprove my current opinion.

denime
05-03-2010, 08:55 AM
Boneheaded decision, pure and simple. And to a degree, I think he wanted to go out and show that the team of guys he has chosen can go out and compete without the guys he hasn't brought in, namely Cronin, DeRo and JDG.

Yeah,right.

Preki has nothing better to do than to create a split in his team and have even more shit on his back.

You are simply creating conspiracy for no real reason whatsoever.

and than we are all surprised when staff like this pops out at MLSRumors.:facepalm:

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 08:57 AM
Stop living in the past for a second.



Ok, preseason is over. We still didn't have a team to work with. Now we do. So what do you propose? Only play DeRo/JDG/Attakora/Hscanovic/Usanov/Frei every week because you know their ability?

Away games in the MLS, are largely considered to be loss/draw games for the visitors. Preki knows this and tried something new in a game he was confidant we weren't going to get points from.

I'm ok with the idea, I just think it was poorly executed personally.


My point is that we scream for the same thing for every season and every season we have gone into this mess the same way.

My point is that in the middle of the season apologists come out and ignore the warning signs of preseason only to give more time and more lifeline to those responsble, only perpetuating our dreadful position.

My point is that the "past" (as you call it) isn't the past at all. It forms the collective evidence of the season upon which we are supposed to base our opinions and judgements. To ignore it is to choose to discard proper evidence in the formulation of a judgement and to do yourself a disservice for no good reason.

Pachuco
05-03-2010, 09:04 AM
For those of you that follow Barcelona. With as deep a team as they are you rarely see messi taking a break if he's healthy. Preki mentioned jdg is super fit. So much for that. I don't get it, preki cost us points last night and he's getting credit for tryin something new. It's astonishing.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 09:08 AM
My point is that we scream for the same thing for every season and every season we have gone into this mess the same way.

My point is that in the middle of the season apologists come out and ignore the warning signs of preseason only to give more time and more lifeline to those responsble, only perpetuating our dreadful position.

My point is that the "past" (as you call it) isn't the past at all. It forms the collective evidence of the season upon which we are supposed to base our opinions and judgements. To ignore it is to choose to discard proper evidence in the formulation of a judgement and to do yourself a disservice for no good reason.

Maybe. But maybe this season isn't exactly like the others.

How many games do you expect TFC to win this season? Realistically? The most games any team won last year was 13.

When Preki was hired in November we all expected more in the of season. We don't know why it didn't happen, but Preki has to deal with what did happen and move forward form there. So, yes, he's treating the first few games of the preseason and doing things that should have been done months ago - at least he's not bitching and moaning about having to do it now, he's just getting it done.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:10 AM
For those of you that follow Barcelona. With as deep a team as they are you rarely see messi taking a break if he's healthy. Preki mentioned jdg is super fit. So much for that. I don't get it, preki cost us points last night and he's getting credit for tryin something new. It's astonishing.

I am awed at what I am seeing on the board today.

It's like we're all masochists asking to be kicked in the balls over and over again.

I might have to take the day off the boards. I really, truly can't believe what I am reading.

mastermixer
05-03-2010, 09:14 AM
So what if we are 5 games into a season when you have 7 games in May you have to look ahead.
So his intention was to rest the players for a total of 45 minutes and then ask them to come out and work twice as hard to get some points out of the game?
And why rest both at the same time? Play DeRo in the first half and sub in JDG for some defense in the second. By "resting" both it left a an obvious huge hole in our roster.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 09:21 AM
I understand what Preki was trying to do but the team isn't deep enough to do what he did. You're supposed to put the team in the best position to win.

By the same token, if DeRo or JDG go down injured and it's due to fatigue then people will be complaining that Preki should have rested them at some point.

Some say he should have rested them against Montreal, yet others are saying that he has to take the NCC seriously.

I still blame this on Mo... LOL

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:30 AM
I understand what Preki was trying to do but the team isn't deep enough to do what he did. You're supposed to put the team in the best position to win.

By the same token, if DeRo or JDG go down injured and it's due to fatigue then people will be complaining that Preki should have rested them at some point.

Some say he should have rested them against Montreal, yet others are saying that he has to take the NCC seriously.

I still blame this on Mo... LOL

See, if Preki's point was to rest players at some point, I don't blame him. Yes we are playing a lot in May and yes players can get fatigued and hurt.

In my opinion that is a reasonable consideration. However...

Putting our two best and highest paid players on the bench at the same time??? Against the reigning MLS champs? You really have to want to be a Preki apologist to believe this was a good idea ever ever ever!

I have my reasons for believing this was done for more than simply "resting" players. We won't go into that because apparently MLS Rumours will scoop me and the team will break down in a blood feud, however, if we simply take the general consensus around here that this was done to rest players, not only was it stupid, it was poorly executed. And to give Preki a pass is to give him preferential treatment.

denime
05-03-2010, 09:35 AM
I have my reasons for believing this was done for more than simply "resting" players.

If you know something that we don't come out and let us know too,or stop teasing us.

or post it in Members only so MLSRumors can't get the info. ;)

Whoop
05-03-2010, 09:38 AM
Roogs, I know what you mean.

But do you fire him after the result on Saturday?

Maybe Preki was trying to prove to Mo, that the players that we have aren't good enough and that we need more?

I still lay the blame on Mo more so than Preki. He said it didn't work, therefore it was a mistake, time move on. We'll remember. But there's no need to extract a pound of flesh. LOL

Waggy
05-03-2010, 09:44 AM
See, if Preki's point was to rest players at some point, I don't blame him. Yes we are playing a lot in May and yes players can get fatigued and hurt.

In my opinion that is a reasonable consideration. However...

Putting our two best and highest paid players on the bench at the same time??? Against the reigning MLS champs? You really have to want to be a Preki apologist to believe this was a good idea ever ever ever!

I have my reasons for believing this was done for more than simply "resting" players. We won't go into that because apparently MLS Rumours will scoop me and the team will break down in a blood feud, however, if we simply take the general consensus around here that this was done to rest players, not only was it stupid, it was poorly executed. And to give Preki a pass is to give him preferential treatment.


Cito Gaston has a line that goes something along the lines of "Sometimes you have to lose a game in April to win a game in September". Maybe Preki was trying to give the other players confidence that it's NOT just Dero and DeGuz who drive the team; that they (the other players) are equally important and in case one or both (touch wood) get injured, the team isn't fucked. Just like giving Chad the armband, it's all about the heads of the other guys. Preki showed them faith, one day they will return that. Look at that game as a learning experience for the whole club. The other guys know what they need to do without Dero/DeGuz, and Dero/DeGuz now know how important they are to the club. And how hard they have to play.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Roogs, you keep saying 'give Preki a pass'. Who's giving him a pass?


He fucked up. The players fucked up. He acknowledged it. End of. It's his job as coach to get the best out of the players he has at his disposal, correct? Let him do his job. We said at the beginning of the season that he would need some time to work with the players because of the preseason. That excuse is old.

We know it sucks balls, and I'm sure it wasn't like Preki was sitting by the wayside waiting for the preseason to end so he could all of a sudden sign players and jump right into the season. I'm positive he would have LOVED to have a proper preseason, filled with players they actually intended to go into the MLS season with...

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 10:00 AM
Roogs, I know what you mean.

But do you fire him after the result on Saturday?

Maybe Preki was trying to prove to Mo, that the players that we have aren't good enough and that we need more?

I still lay the blame on Mo more so than Preki. He said it didn't work, therefore it was a mistake, time move on. We'll remember. But there's no need to extract a pound of flesh. LOL

No, no, no!

Guys...there is a difference between wanting someone fired and wanting people to objectively measure progress.

I want to give Preki the year. I don't want him gone before then, I don't want him given an extension. I want to see what he can do this year based on players he has selected, formations he has chosen and running the team his way. Mo now officially has nothing to do with this squad other than putting pen to paper. Preki has no excuses. This is his team and I hope to never see people blame whatever good or bad season we have on Mo. (This raises the question of why Mo is still here but that is another discussion).

So after the stupidity of Saturday, I am not calling for Preki's head. But for the life of me I can't understand the Preki love-in at all. Preki's stamp is definitely on this team. They have a different look and feel. But for some reason, a different look and feel has been enough reason for people to think it's a good thing. That has to be proven over time. Not over 2 games. Not after one loss. Time. In the meantime, we analyze each and every game on it's merits. Is that not reasonable?

Suds
05-03-2010, 10:04 AM
Roogsy take I hate Mo glasses off for a week or two and look at the big picture?


careful ... Tim90 might start asking you where he can get these :D

Steve
05-03-2010, 10:06 AM
No, no, no!

Guys...there is a difference between wanting someone fired and wanting people to objectively measure progress.

I want to give Preki the year. I don't want him gone before then, I don't want him given an extension. I want to see what he can do this year based on players he has selected, formations he has chosen and running the team his way. Mo now officially has nothing to do with this squad other than putting pen to paper. Preki has no excuses. This is his team and I hope to never see people blame whatever good or bad season we have on Mo. (This raises the question of why Mo is still here but that is another discussion).

So after the stupidity of Saturday, I am not calling for Preki's head. But for the life of me I can't understand the Preki love-in at all. Preki's stamp is definitely on this team. They have a different look and feel. But for some reason, a different look and feel has been enough reason for people to think it's a good thing. That has to be proven over time. Not over 2 games. Not after one loss. Time. In the meantime, we analyze each and every game on it's merits. Is that not reasonable?

I agree with you. Preki has earned very little from me so far. To my mind, he's got rid of more players than he needed to, brought in players that have been nothing spectacular, and not done what was needed to win. Sure, in the end, it may all turn out that he knew what he was doing, that the players he got rid of were locker room cancer, and that the new players will suddenly click and TFC will go on to make the playoffs and have a nice run. I don't know yet, but I'm not going to assume it's the case (nor am I going to assume it isn't).

Preki right now strikes me as a guy with an ego so big, he can't have any other egos in the locker room with him. He got rid of players who would speak up, and seems to like his role players (who will play and not complain) better than his skill players (who might argue from time to time). Sat's move was odd to me. Again, if you are playing a defensive first half, put on your DP defensive mid. Want to switch to offense second half? Bring on DeRo and bring off JDG. Maybe he thought that we could grind out a close game in the first half and bring it home in the second, I don't know, but it seems to me like there was more to it than strategy.

Anyway, Preki, as our coach, has done nothing to really impress me yet, so I'm still not a supporter of his, but hopefully he can convince me throughout the season.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 10:08 AM
No, no, no!


I want to give Preki the year. I don't want him gone before then, I don't want him given an extension. I want to see what he can do this year based on players he has selected, formations he has chosen and running the team his way. Mo now officially has nothing to do with this squad other than putting pen to paper. Preki has no excuses. This is his team and I hope to never see people blame whatever good or bad season we have on Mo. (This raises the question of why Mo is still here but that is another discussion).


The players are Preki's boys, but the early season results still have some Mo-responsibility on them, due to him waiting too long before bringing in players (Preki alluded to this problem, early on). The season as a whole, less so.

I agree that Preki needs to be given time. Mo will also be judged based on the guy he chose to hand the wheel over to.

Sonny Cheeba
05-03-2010, 10:11 AM
SSG is trying really hard to make her cans look big. don't bother, it's ok.

she's cute, doesn't seem to have much of a toilet though.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 10:14 AM
She is cute.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 10:18 AM
So after the stupidity of Saturday, I am not calling for Preki's head. But for the life of me I can't understand the Preki love-in at all. Preki's stamp is definitely on this team. They have a different look and feel. But for some reason, a different look and feel has been enough reason for people to think it's a good thing. That has to be proven over time. Not over 2 games. Not after one loss. Time. In the meantime, we analyze each and every game on it's merits. Is that not reasonable?


Actually, no it's not resasonable.

Remember when Total Quality Management was the business buzzword, everything a company did was broken down into its smallest activities and each one judged on its own merits? In some businesses that works, but not all.

And sports is one where it doesn't work. Sports are illogical, more art than science.

I like that line from Cito Gaston Waggy mentioned, sometimes you have to lose a game in April to win a game in Spetmeber. Not all games are equal. You can make a lot of poor decisions giving too much analytical weight to each game. Of course, you can also make poor decisions by not analyzing each game enough ;).

And is there really a Preki "love-in" or does it just seem like for the first time the team is in the hands of someone with some idea about how this league works?

CoachGT
05-03-2010, 10:24 AM
Roogs, you keep saying 'give Preki a pass'. Who's giving him a pass?


He fucked up. The players fucked up. He acknowledged it. End of. It's his job as coach to get the best out of the players he has at his disposal, correct? Let him do his job. We said at the beginning of the season that he would need some time to work with the players because of the preseason. That excuse is old.

We know it sucks balls, and I'm sure it wasn't like Preki was sitting by the wayside waiting for the preseason to end so he could all of a sudden sign players and jump right into the season. I'm positive he would have LOVED to have a proper preseason, filled with players they actually intended to go into the MLS season with...


I hear you, especially about players, but what I don't understand is why TFC was the only team to really fall into that boat. Most other teams had their pre-season, signed their players and got on with things. Things may have been quieter than usual at other teams but they still filled up their rosters.

I appreciate that people will give Preki time to make measure of himself. But I think that many of the issues that have come up over the last two months point more to the coach than GM - players are moved out because they don't fit into the coach's system. Players that aren't being played also seem not to fit into the system. But at some point, Preki will have to answer for that.

I don't think, even with the changes that have been made, that there is enough evidence to suggest that this team is strong defensively. They are better than last year certainly, but we haven't seen much of them trying to defend a lead. What we've seen is a shift in philosophy - moving from winning by scoring more (and suggesting that defence gets left behind) to a defensive posture first (and if we happen to score, then we stand a chance of winning).

That is a tactical choice by the coach, not by the GM or anyone else, and he's brought in his own players to execute. What happened Saturday was a failure of those players to execute, a game plan orchestrated by the coach.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 10:25 AM
I hear you, especially about players, but what I don't understand is why TFC was the only team to really fall into that boat.

Coach I think we can all point the finger at one guy. LOL

keem-o-sabi
05-03-2010, 10:32 AM
coed girls 1 (http://coedmagazine.com/2010/05/02/miss-coed-ashley-byford/) and 2 (http://coedmagazine.com/2010/04/30/diora-baird-drops-some-cleavage-on-twitter/)

I didn't have a chance to see the match as i was down in the states for an alumni game. I looked at the subs and was like, wow he changed the line-up. Maybe the guys got really banged up on Wednesday. He knows the best way to get into a big tournament is to win the NCC and so maybe he is putting his stock into that. It is early MLS season after all, and the boys just have to get hot at the right time.

Why risk all the injury now, it's bit us in the ass the past 3 years losing steam down the stretch.

mmmikey
05-03-2010, 12:28 PM
the part of Wheeler's article which is right on the money is where he states that the lineup put out in the first half does a poor job of holding onto the ball. it's ok to go for the defensive shell to start, with impact subs in the 2nd half..

i agree with CoachGT with regards to cronin, i think he would have been essential in such a lineup because he can actually hold onto the ball and pass/move off the ball better than a few of the starters. his insertion into the starting lineup might have made the difference.

TFC doesn't have the quality without JDG, DeRo and Cronin to allow RSL to control the play so much and expect their defensive shell to hold when they give the ball away so fast.. they aren't Inter

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 12:56 PM
Maybe Preki was trying to give the other players confidence that it's NOT just Dero and DeGuz who drive the team; that they (the other players) are equally important and in case one or both (touch wood) get injured, the team isn't fucked. Just like giving Chad the armband, it's all about the heads of the other guys. Preki showed them faith, one day they will return that. Look at that game as a learning experience for the whole club.

I don't know if that was what Preki was thinking, but it would fit in with his "team first" philosophy.

Tezza
05-03-2010, 01:12 PM
Even if he wants to rest guys. You start the game even. Put your best out for the FIRST half and try to get a result. Then rest your guys and hope to hell you can hang onto your lead or draw.

He wouldn't have to explain that he needed to rest some of his star players and therefore lost the game versus not starting them and not having much of a chance because you're already down by the time they come on.

It's the difference between going into the game expecting to win and going into it expecting to lose.

Preki may end up being a great coach for us but this was a big "eye-opener" in how he approaches the game. Funny how a former striker builds a defensive system.

wzhxvy
05-03-2010, 01:15 PM
I am adopting a new philosophy personally this year that I am not going to listen to gossip, leaks or rumours and focus on the results on the field, and assess our performance based on our winning the NCC, advancing beyond the first round and making the playoffs. I am getting tired of all these leaks and rumours because I believe they are becoming almost a tool for certain players and the organization to make excuses, and justify sub par performances.

That does not change that Mo needs to be fired now, but the rest of the stuff is just noise in my opinion.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-03-2010, 01:23 PM
It was a bone head decision by preki no doubt!....

CC..JC..would of been hung on these boards if they had made this move!


ROAD points are vital in MLS.....it will make or break your playoff chances..

Northern Soul
05-03-2010, 01:38 PM
If Preki was resting the players, ok, but he shouldn't have had JDG and DeRo resting at the same time. Let JDG play the first half, sit DeRo, and see where you are at halftime. If you need to bring DeRo on in the 2nd, do so.

I also agree that Cronin should have started.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 02:02 PM
Geez...I want to kill myself but I have to agree with Wheeler.



It’s a wonder how Hscanovics, and the similarly slow-footed Usanov, found their way to the club in a league predicated on speed and pace. If these are the product of Preki’s so-called European connections, it leaves a lot to be desired.


We are beginning to see Mo Johnston part deux. Instead of British rejects, we're going to see Eastern European rejects. That's the feeling I am getting.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 02:03 PM
Add Saric to the mix Roogs.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 02:04 PM
Oh dear lord...where is the head explosion emoticon?

http://newvaluestreams.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/exploding-head.jpg

scooterTFC
05-03-2010, 02:06 PM
I think the arguments being made on both sides of the debate about Saturday’s game are lacking focus. The tactical decisions Preki made in selecting the line-up and the formation are the central issues of the debate.

The team lost the game, with a terrible showing in the first half. Preki made the decision to the rest both Dero and JDG, for the first half, and thus he’s largely responsible for the result.

Let’s park the conspiracy theories for the time being, and assume that the both players were rested, because in the judgment of the coaching staff, they were not fit to play the full 90 on Saturday. If your Preki, you want to play these guys, if they’re fit and ready to go. You simply don’t want to park a star player(s) on the bench, unless you absolutely have to do so . I don’t believe that anybody on this board has inside information that can refute the reasons for resting the players or the coaching staff’s assessment of any player’s physical condition going into a match.

If neither player could play a full 90 mins, what were Preki’s tactical options heading into this game?
1. Start both Dero and JDG and play them for the first 45-60 mins, and send in the subs when they fatigue
2. Start with both of them on the bench and introduce both players into the game at the half or for the last 30 mins
3. Start JDG to bring on Dero late in the game
4. Start Dero and bring on JDG late in the game

Each option has its pro’s and cons, probably more than I care to try to type right now. Here’s a quick list of important considerations

-Having them on the field together gives the team maximum impact in terms of passing, possession and ability to attack
-If both players are going to be ‘off the pace’ bringing them in later in the game, lets them play against fatigued opposition vs fresh rested players at the start of the game
-Home teams tend to have a big offensive push in the first half. If the plan was to ‘weather the storm’ in the first half, JDG would have helped the team do that. Conversely, if Dero can only give you limited minutes do you burn those up with him on the field defending in the first half.
-All TFC starters will be battling more fatigue then normal in the 2nd half due to the altitude
Lots to consider. I think I probably would have started them both and hoped to grab a lead. But I can see why he tried the tactics he did.

maninb
05-03-2010, 03:00 PM
I sure hope Saric, & Hscanovics aren't on GUARANTEED contracts...Surely there's better/more skilled players out there than those 2 mopes...Even in the CSL....

ManUtd4ever
05-03-2010, 03:16 PM
I think the arguments being made on both sides of the debate about Saturday’s game are lacking focus. The tactical decisions Preki made in selecting the line-up and the formation are the central issues of the debate.

The team lost the game, with a terrible showing in the first half. Preki made the decision to the rest both Dero and JDG, for the first half, and thus he’s largely responsible for the result.

Let’s park the conspiracy theories for the time being, and assume that the both players were rested, because in the judgment of the coaching staff, they were not fit to play the full 90 on Saturday. If your Preki, you want to play these guys, if they’re fit and ready to go. You simply don’t want to park a star player(s) on the bench, unless you absolutely have to do so . I don’t believe that anybody on this board has inside information that can refute the reasons for resting the players or the coaching staff’s assessment of any player’s physical condition going into a match.

If neither player could play a full 90 mins, what were Preki’s tactical options heading into this game?
1. Start both Dero and JDG and play them for the first 45-60 mins, and send in the subs when they fatigue
2. Start with both of them on the bench and introduce both players into the game at the half or for the last 30 mins
3. Start JDG to bring on Dero late in the game
4. Start Dero and bring on JDG late in the game

Each option has its pro’s and cons, probably more than I care to try to type right now. Here’s a quick list of important considerations

-Having them on the field together gives the team maximum impact in terms of passing, possession and ability to attack
-If both players are going to be ‘off the pace’ bringing them in later in the game, lets them play against fatigued opposition vs fresh rested players at the start of the game
-Home teams tend to have a big offensive push in the first half. If the plan was to ‘weather the storm’ in the first half, JDG would have helped the team do that. Conversely, if Dero can only give you limited minutes do you burn those up with him on the field defending in the first half.
-All TFC starters will be battling more fatigue then normal in the 2nd half due to the altitude
Lots to consider. I think I probably would have started them both and hoped to grab a lead. But I can see why he tried the tactics he did.

Excellent post...

CretanBull
05-03-2010, 03:55 PM
If the goal was to play negative football and grind out a first half draw to give the starters a rest (a reasonable tactic considering the month ahead), why bring on DeRo and JDG for the second half when we were down 2-0? At that point the game was lost and two players weren't going to turn the team around by themselves...and one one else looked interested. In the end, we didn't get the draw that we were trying for and didn't get the rest we needed, which probably means that we're either going to see this tactic again this month or Preki is going to run our guys into the ground before June.

CretanBull
05-03-2010, 03:56 PM
We are beginning to see Mo Johnston part deux. Instead of British rejects, we're going to see Eastern European rejects. That's the feeling I am getting.

...and Colorado Rapids rejects. At least one thing is consistant.

scooterTFC
05-03-2010, 04:39 PM
If the goal was to play negative football and grind out a first half draw to give the starters a rest (a reasonable tactic considering the month ahead), why bring on DeRo and JDG for the second half when we were down 2-0? At that point the game was lost and two players weren't going to turn the team around by themselves...and one one else looked interested. In the end, we didn't get the draw that we were trying for and didn't get the rest we needed, which probably means that we're either going to see this tactic again this month or Preki is going to run our guys into the ground before June.

"Negative football" is coach/managers execuse for losing to an underdog team. "We lost, but they played negative football " sounds better than "We lost because I was outclassed by their coach". If a coach feels his team lacks the talent to win with attacking style then there's nothing wrong with making the game ugly. I'm not defending Preki's tactics in this match in particular, the line-up decisions were quesitonable. Given the state of the roster I think its reasonable for coach to play some road games looking for a draw. Games at altitude, games on short-turnarounds, games with injuries to key players - all situations where a draw might be a positive result.

Pachuco
05-03-2010, 05:13 PM
Add Saric to the mix Roogs.

Marco Reda, Andy Welsh, Adam Braz = Hscanovic, Usanov and Saric three years later :facepalm:.

CoachGT
05-03-2010, 05:57 PM
"Negative football" is coach/managers execuse for losing to an underdog team. "We lost, but they played negative football " sounds better than "We lost because I was outclassed by their coach". If a coach feels his team lacks the talent to win with attacking style then there's nothing wrong with making the game ugly. I'm not defending Preki's tactics in this match in particular, the line-up decisions were quesitonable. Given the state of the roster I think its reasonable for coach to play some road games looking for a draw. Games at altitude, games on short-turnarounds, games with injuries to key players - all situations where a draw might be a positive result.

Actually, negative football is a tactic used by coaches around the world to win games primarily through defensive means. Catenaccio is a version of negative football - you don't lose if you keep the other team off the scoresheet and hope - hope - that you can catch a break somewhere along the course of the game to go ahead. As opposed to positive football where your tactics are primarily through offensive means.

Negative football is associated frequent fouls, hard tackles, and so on, where the defensive focus is to eliminate space and width for opposing teams. The difference is that it is the key focus, whereas teams with higher levels of skill try to employ that skill, possession control, penetrating, pin point and quick passing, speed and manouvering.

Negative football is to soccer what playing the neutral zone trap is in hockey. Boring as hell because it is intended to limit offence and usually does so for both sides.

I don't think of it as an "excuse" for losing, but it is a style of play and is not a guaranteed means of success, especially against a more talented team.

CoachGT
05-03-2010, 05:58 PM
If the goal was to play negative football and grind out a first half draw to give the starters a rest (a reasonable tactic considering the month ahead), why bring on DeRo and JDG for the second half when we were down 2-0? At that point the game was lost and two players weren't going to turn the team around by themselves......


Excellent point!

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 05:59 PM
Well fucking said Coach.

scooterTFC
05-03-2010, 08:11 PM
Actually, negative football is a tactic used by coaches around the world to win games primarily through defensive means. Catenaccio is a version of negative football - you don't lose if you keep the other team off the scoresheet and hope - hope - that you can catch a break somewhere along the course of the game to go ahead. As opposed to positive football where your tactics are primarily through offensive means.

Negative football is associated frequent fouls, hard tackles, and so on, where the defensive focus is to eliminate space and width for opposing teams. The difference is that it is the key focus, whereas teams with higher levels of skill try to employ that skill, possession control, penetrating, pin point and quick passing, speed and manouvering.

Negative football is to soccer what playing the neutral zone trap is in hockey. Boring as hell because it is intended to limit offence and usually does so for both sides.

I don't think of it as an "excuse" for losing, but it is a style of play and is not a guaranteed means of success, especially against a more talented team.


I agree with your defination, very well worded. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly in my post. I take issue with people who use the term "Negative Football" as derisive judgment just like labelling a hockey team a "trap team". Its a term often used with the intention of a negative connotation.

As for it being an execuse, I'll give the the obvious example, Aresene Wenger throws around the "Negative Football" label as a criticism of less talented opposing teams who manage earn a draw vs Aresenal. If I'm the manager for Birmingham, or Burnely, I would want to kick Wenger's ass. They both pulled off draws vs Arsenal and then had to hear Wenger rip their teams for ugly play in his post game comments. Clearly Wenger and a few others try to paint those who employ 'ugly' or 'negative' tactics as people who lack respect or integrity for the 'beautiful game". Reality is Wenger's jusdgment is really just a defensive response to rationalize his teams failure to defeat an inferior opponent.


I also had an issue with the previous post that was questioning why Preki chose these tactics for Satuday's game. I personally thought it was obvious why he chose these tactics - quick turnaround from Wednesday's game, playing at altitude, road game, match-up ve the defending league champs.

CretanBull
05-03-2010, 08:18 PM
I agree with your defination, very well worded. Perhaps I didn't express myself properly in my post. I take issue with people who use the term "Negative Football" as derisive judgment just like labelling a hockey team a "trap team". Its a term often used with the intention of a negative connotation.

I also had an issue with the previous post that was questioning why Preki chose these tactics for Satuday's game. I personally thought it was obvious why he chose these tactics - quick turnaround from Wednesday's game, playing at altitude, road game, match-up ve the defending league champs.

I didn't use it in a judgemental way at all, I said it in a very matter of fact way ("If the goal was to play negative football and grind out a first half draw to give the starters a rest...") nor did I question why Preki chose to do that ("...a reasonable tactic considering the month ahead").

CoachGT
05-03-2010, 08:32 PM
As for it being an execuse, I'll give the the obvious example, Aresene Wenger throws around the "Negative Football" label as a criticism of less talented opposing teams who manage earn a draw vs Aresenal. If I'm the manager for Birmingham, or Burnely, I would want to kick Wenger's ass. They both pulled off draws vs Arsenal and then had to hear Wenger rip their teams for ugly play in his post game comments. Clearly Wenger and a few others try to paint those who employ 'ugly' or 'negative' tactics as people who lack respect or integrity for the 'beautiful game". Reality is Wenger's jusdgment is really just a defensive response to rationalize his teams failure to defeat an inferior opponent.

Funny thing is that I still don't see that as an excuse, and I would expect the managers of the other squads (Birmingham and Burnley) to consider that praise from Wenger, not an insult. It is an indication of playing a game using your talent (or lack thereof) effectively. In my way of thinking, using a hockey reference again, much like the old "clutch and grab" style of defensive hockey. If you haven't got the talent of your opposition, you need to find a way.

Negative football can work. Neither Burnley nor Birmingham have enough players on the roster to play a wide open positive game against a talent laden team like Arsenal. And if they did try to play that type of game, they'd be destroyed. But it takes less talent to play a hard tackling, often fouling game, needing only players with the grit and determination to do so. A type of player that both Burnley and Birmingham can afford to have on ther rosters.

scooterTFC
05-03-2010, 08:35 PM
I didn't use it in a judgemental way at all, I said it in a very matter of fact way ("If the goal was to play negative football and grind out a first half draw to give the starters a rest...") nor did I question why Preki chose to do that ("...a reasonable tactic considering the month ahead").

My mistake. I originally read your post as condeming negative football. Re-read it just now and that was not your point of emphasis so much as questioning the 2nd half subs after the team was down two goals and the game was out of reach.