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View Full Version : The Squad Rotation Experiment Wasn't a 'Failure'



James17930
05-02-2010, 11:49 PM
Overall, I kind of disagree with Preki's assessment that rotating the squad as he did was a failure. As others have mentioned, perhaps the tactics employed didn't quite work, but that shouldn't mean that we leap to the conclusion of the rotation itself being wrong.

The reason, of course, is that it's an absolute necessity. We can't have De Ro, JDG et al. playing 90 minutes every game. They'll be burnt out by August; this month especially, with all those games, it's vital that guys come in and out of the team.

Remember also that this is the first time Preki tried something like this, and those guys who came on still aren't fully familiar with each other yet. I would say that this process of rotation needs to continue, not only to build confidence in some of the bench players, but also to make sure our stars don't burn out.

It would be quite a shame if after one game of this Preki loses confidence in this strategy and starts running some guys into the ground. That will just lead to fatigue and fatigue leads to injuries and nothing good will come of it.

nascarguy
05-03-2010, 12:00 AM
I'm only give this team in till the 2 week in july to get around 35 points or I will take the summer off from the mls to save money. hell I may even start the off season very early

sulfur
05-03-2010, 04:29 AM
I'm only give this team in till the 2 week in july to get around 35 points
Seeing that we had 40 points at the end of the season last year, you may as well just start your offseason now. :)

Keystone FC
05-03-2010, 04:37 AM
Seeing that we had 40 points at the end of the season last year, you may as well just start your offseason now. :)
We had 34 points last season.

Cashcleaner
05-03-2010, 05:52 AM
Overall, I kind of disagree with Preki's assessment that rotating the squad as he did was a failure. As others have mentioned, perhaps the tactics employed didn't quite work, but that shouldn't mean that we leap to the conclusion of the rotation itself being wrong.

The reason, of course, is that it's an absolute necessity. We can't have De Ro, JDG et al. playing 90 minutes every game. They'll be burnt out by August; this month especially, with all those games, it's vital that guys come in and out of the team.

Remember also that this is the first time Preki tried something like this, and those guys who came on still aren't fully familiar with each other yet. I would say that this process of rotation needs to continue, not only to build confidence in some of the bench players, but also to make sure our stars don't burn out.

It would be quite a shame if after one game of this Preki loses confidence in this strategy and starts running some guys into the ground. That will just lead to fatigue and fatigue leads to injuries and nothing good will come of it.

I think if you look at it from a game-by-game perspective, the match against RSL was a failure and therefore so were the tactics used; but I totally agree with what you mean about the long-term strategy of rotation. Like you said, once we're further into the season it will likely be necessary to rest certain players in a certain manner. The way I look at it; Preki gambled against RSL and lost, but his overall strategy is sound.

Terrace Greg
05-03-2010, 06:01 AM
This is a low, low quality product we are seeing on the field. As an investment of time, it rates pretty ridiculous to watch this drivel week in, week out considering we have all been brought up watching quality international football. I myself support TFC and am not a fairweather fan. I have season's and I sing my heart out at home games and have made 4 away game trips over the past few years.....I will not trash the team because that's fickle. I'm just at the point where between a busy and hectic life and work schedule, if I have to pick between watching top club or international football, or this...I need the final product to be much more worthwhile.

I feel if we are paying to watch "professional" football, then the overall quality of the final product on the field needs to step up soon. Four seasons in and we are either getting horrifically outplayed or getting fluke wins from mostly gifted goals. Again, I do not trash TFC, I want them to succeed. However, I watch professional football because I derive satisfaction from it. I watch it because I get excited to see the beautiful game played as it should be by those that can play it far better than I. I don't invest countless hours of my free time and money to feel eternally frustrated...there's dating for that. lol ;)

Seriously though, I'm going to continue to go to home games since there is still a great match day experience at BMO apart from the disappointment on display. However, I'm also done watching away games on television at some sparsely filled American football stadium which is akin to flushing 2 hours of your time down a toilet.

I await the day when I am excited to tune into these again. I think that's a fair expectation to have after all.

World Cup in 6 weeks!!!!!! =)

Shakes McQueen
05-03-2010, 06:20 AM
I think if you look at it from a game-by-game perspective, the match against RSL was a failure and therefore so were the tactics used; but I totally agree with what you mean about the long-term strategy of rotation. Like you said, once we're further into the season it will likely be necessary to rest certain players in a certain manner. The way I look at it; Preki gambled against RSL and lost, but his overall strategy is sound.

This is my view. From the perspective of that game, his strategy failed, and you can't argue otherwise. He thought he had a plan to get at least one point, and we wound up with none. That is failure.

But from the perspective of the entire season, I think it was a fine strategic risk to take. Especially if it will save us injuries to our key players down the road, or the team looking flat down the stretch, or guys caving in around the 70 minute mark like we did all last season.

If Preki thought DeRo and JDG needed rest, then I'd much rather he rest them. He's more in tune with the fatigue level of his players than any of us keyboard warriors are, and I can't imagine he'd start his two best players on the bench, unless he really thought they needed it. He's not a masochist.

I thought we were lousy on Saturday, but looking at the bigger picture - we played three games in seven days, and won two of three. I can look past this result, if it helps them look more consistently energized over the course of our entire schedule - starting again this coming weekend.

- Scott

Carter
05-03-2010, 06:50 AM
This is a low, low quality product we are seeing on the field. As an investment of time, it rates pretty ridiculous to watch this drivel week in, week out considering we have all been brought up watching quality international football. I myself support TFC and am not a fairweather fan. I have season's and I sing my heart out at home games and have made 4 away game trips over the past few years.....I will not trash the team because that's fickle. I'm just at the point where between a busy and hectic life and work schedule, if I have to pick between watching top club or international football, or this...I need the final product to be much more worthwhile.

I feel if we are paying to watch "professional" football, then the overall quality of the final product on the field needs to step up soon. Four seasons in and we are either getting horrifically outplayed or getting fluke wins from mostly gifted goals. Again, I do not trash TFC, I want them to succeed. However, I watch professional football because I derive satisfaction from it. I watch it because I get excited to see the beautiful game played as it should be by those that can play it far better than I. I don't invest countless hours of my free time and money to feel eternally frustrated...there's dating for that. lol ;)

Seriously though, I'm going to continue to go to home games since there is still a great match day experience at BMO apart from the disappointment on display. However, I'm also done watching away games on television at some sparsely filled American football stadium which is akin to flushing 2 hours of your time down a toilet.

I await the day when I am excited to tune into these again. I think that's a fair expectation to have after all.

World Cup in 6 weeks!!!!!! =)

You aren't paying to watch "professional" football, you are paying to watch the MLS.
40 quid for a cheap seat at Professional Football
13 quid for a cheap seat at MLS
27 quid difference.

You cannot compare MLS to EPL, or international football for that matter. When there is more money available to bring in quality players like the Rooney's, Messi's, Gerrard's, Drogba's, Lampard's, Nani's, you will see the change.

For now, you must live with watching League Two quality football.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 07:27 AM
Preki's squad rotation is a ridiculous idea with the lack of quality TFC have.
Professional footballers can and should want to play 2 games a week.
Most amateurs do.
He should make these overpaid "athletes" earn their money.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 07:31 AM
Preki's squad rotation is a ridiculous idea with the lack of quality TFC have.
Professional footballers can and should want to play 2 games a week.
Most amateurs do.
He should make these overpaid "athletes" earn their money.


Except that we have a tough schedule that started last Sunday, including 3 games in a week, and then we have a busy month of mostly away matches coming up.

Squad rotation is needed, the tactics applied to the game were sound. The problem was the players didn't do their job on the pitch in the first 45 mins.

rocker
05-03-2010, 07:43 AM
We had 34 points last season.

39 points last season.....

koryo
05-03-2010, 07:48 AM
Except that we have a tough schedule that started last Sunday, including 3 games in a week, and then we have a busy month of mostly away matches coming up.

Squad rotation is needed, the tactics applied to the game were sound. The problem was the players didn't do their job on the pitch in the first 45 mins.

All that needs to be said.

brad
05-03-2010, 07:56 AM
You cannot compare MLS to EPL, or international football for that matter. When there is more money available to bring in quality players like the Rooney's, Messi's, Gerrard's, Drogba's, Lampard's, Nani's, you will see the change.

For now, you must live with watching League Two quality football.

I've watched League two football live in England, and it's better quality that what is on display by TFC this year.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 07:59 AM
Except that we have a tough schedule that started last Sunday, including 3 games in a week, and then we have a busy month of mostly away matches coming up.

Squad rotation is needed, the tactics applied to the game were sound. The problem was the players didn't do their job on the pitch in the first 45 mins.
3 games a week ?
They play at the weekend and on a Wednesday...that's 2 a week.
That's not a tough schedule for professional players.
They didn't do the job because they're not good enough.

ManUtd4ever
05-03-2010, 08:00 AM
I have no issues with the notion of utilizing a rotation over the course of an entire season. It is an absolute necessity without question. However, I would have preferred a more agressive strategy considering RSL's key injuries. Preki could have started the match with DeRo and JDG to try and build a lead and then rest them early in the second half. I still support Preki 100% though as trial and error is part of the process of learning what you have at your disposal as the coach of a new club...

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:01 AM
I've watched League two football live in England, and it's better quality that what is on display by TFC this year.

Like I've said several times, MLS overall is mid table Conference to mid table Div. 2.

brad
05-03-2010, 08:01 AM
Except that we have a tough schedule that started last Sunday, including 3 games in a week, and then we have a busy month of mostly away matches coming up.

Squad rotation is needed, the tactics applied to the game were sound. The problem was the players didn't do their job on the pitch in the first 45 mins.

Pretty much the case. They only part that I would question is resting both JDG and DeRo at the same time.

However, I think the real reason is that Preki pretty much wrote three points off before the match. RSL have an amazing home record, and we are shite on the road - so even with a full squad, we probably would have lost.

Better to rest players so they are fresher for a tough match against Chicago at home, were we are much more likely to get points.

BTW - this is the thing that drives me crazy about the cap in the MLS more than anything. The fact that teams can't have any depth in the bench. It's hurts the quality of the first team due to lack of competition, and really drops the quality off when you rest a player or two, or have an injury.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:02 AM
3 games a week ?
They play at the weekend and on a Wednesday...that's 2 a week.
That's not a tough schedule for professional players.
They didn't do the job because they're not good enough.


If I'm not mistaken, did we not play 2pm on Sunday? Then 8pm on Wednesday? Then 9pm on Saturday. I'm no genius, but that counts as 3 games in basically a week does it not?

Not good enough? You mean like Edson Buddle wasn't good enough for us? Or Jeff Cunningham? Majority of our players would be average starting players on any other squad in the league for the most part.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 08:03 AM
In all fairness, Preki has a team that mostly didn't go through a full pre-season. He's doing experimenting now that he should have been able to do before the season started. Blame Mo, as usual, for bringing in players late.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:03 AM
Pretty much the case. They only part that I would question is resting both JDG and DeRo at the same time.

However, I think the real reason is that Preki pretty much wrote three points off before the match. RSL have an amazing home record, and we are shite on the road - so even with a full squad, we probably would have lost.

Better to rest players so they are fresher for a tough match against Chicago at home, were we are much more likely to get points.

BTW - this is the thing that drives me crazy about the cap in the MLS more than anything. The fact that teams can't have any depth in the bench. It's hurts the quality of the first team due to lack of competition, and really drops the quality off when you rest a player or two, or have an injury.

Definitely agreed, all around actually.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:04 AM
Rest players ?! The season is 6 games old and they're tired. Give me strength.

2 games a week !! That's the most they ever play.

sweetlemon69
05-03-2010, 08:06 AM
Totally agree with this post. Need more people like James posting.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:07 AM
If I'm not mistaken, did we not play 2pm on Sunday? Then 8pm on Wednesday? Then 9pm on Saturday. I'm no genius, but that counts as 3 games in basically a week does it not?

Not good enough? You mean like Edson Buddle wasn't good enough for us? Or Jeff Cunningham? Majority of our players would be average starting players on any other squad in the league for the most part.
If you're going to split hairs......
A weekend game and a mid-week game is 2 games a week.
FFS they're supposed to be fit, professional athletes !!
This league is like a house league.....
There are a few good players on each team....then it's down to a very poor level.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:07 AM
You're telling me DeRo didn't look gassed at the end of the Montreal game? You need to rotate players, end of story. Especially once the summer hits and they're playing in over 30 degree temperatures for the majority of the matches.



and again, three games in a week. We just did it. Sunday, Wednesday, Saturday. Not even top clubs play their best players all the time when they have three tight matches like that.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:11 AM
You're telling me DeRo didn't look gassed at the end of the Montreal game? You need to rotate players, end of story. Especially once the summer hits and they're playing in over 30 degree temperatures for the majority of the matches.



and again, three games in a week. We just did it.

You're just the kind of fan they want.
Feeling sorry for them when they're playing twice a week (again, don't split hairs)

Maybe the reason they're gassed is they're not fit.

Again, professional athletes should be able to play twice a week easily.

People need to stop making excuses for them.

Lucky Strike
05-03-2010, 08:15 AM
If you're going to split hairs......
A weekend game and a mid-week game is 2 games a week.
FFS they're supposed to be fit, professional athletes !!
This league is like a house league.....
There are a few good players on each team....then it's down to a very poor level.

No I've got to agree with the others. That's three games - there's no hair splitting about it.

koryo
05-03-2010, 08:16 AM
Had Preki started his strongest side, and had we lost (which would have been likely) then people would be on here crucifying him for running down his team in advance of Chicago's visit this Saturday.

Resting his players on the third of a three game stretch in seven days so that they can go all out and secure the points at home the following week is a sound premise.

The part I didn't agree with was going 4-5-1 because all that did was invite pressure. If you play for a draw from the outset, and then go behind, you won't end up getting the point.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:18 AM
No I've got to agree with the others. That's three games - there's no hair splitting about it.
Whatever.

In the next 60 days they play 9 times.

I feel sorry for them.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 08:28 AM
This league is like a house league.....
There are a few good players on each team....then it's down to a very poor level.

Don't follow the Championship much? The lower half have problems with depth, as well. It's not unique to MLS.

MLS is like the lower half of the Championship/the upper half of League 1. TFC has tended to look more like a League 1 team, which is why it's never made the playoffs.

It's unfair to crap on the league to the extent that you are. We all know it's not Premiership/Serie A/La Liga.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 08:29 AM
Had Preki started his strongest side, and had we lost (which would have been likely) then people would be on here crucifying him for running down his team in advance of Chicago's visit this Saturday.

Resting his players on the third of a three game stretch in seven days so that they can go all out and secure the points at home the following week is a sound premise.


In MLS if you win all your home games, you only need to tie a few on the road to make the playoffs.

stretchthetruth
05-03-2010, 08:37 AM
i said to my dad when we saw the starting lineup, preki's either going to look like a genius or an asshole... it didnt work, he admitted that, took a chance and now we move on.

but you know what bothers me even more? i used to be all about the 'parity' in the mls and i guess for the health of the league i still am - but it really riles me up to lose to a team whose stadium is so sparsely filled i can read where it says "salt lake" in the white seats in the stands... we have 20,000 every game and should buy and sell rsl and wipe them off the pitch every night... pisses me right off to think about.

/rant

rocker
05-03-2010, 08:37 AM
Whatever.

In the next 60 days they play 9 times.

I feel sorry for them.

you're counting the world cup break.

in the next 32 days they play 8 games... a game every 4 days. That's a lot. Thank god they'll have the world cup break to recover. But if you play De Ro 90 minutes every 4 days, he may need more than 2 weeks off to get over his inevitable injuries. He also won't be as effective, considering we already saw him drop off in the second half of the Montreal game.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:44 AM
You're just the kind of fan they want.
Feeling sorry for them when they're playing twice a week (again, don't split hairs)

Maybe the reason they're gassed is they're not fit.

Again, professional athletes should be able to play twice a week easily.

People need to stop making excuses for them.


Trust me, I'm not 'just the kind of fan they want'. I am very vocal when it comes to things that bother me about the club, and have been since the first year. I've gained respect and pissed people off many times for making my opinion well known.


Again, 3 matches in 7 days. Add in travel time to Montreal and back. Add in travel time to Utah and back. The climate difference and cold weather encountered in Salt Lake and practice every day (to which I know very well Preki runs his players into the ground at every opportunity), makes for a fucking hell of a week.

If you can't see that, then I'm sorry but you're the one I feel sorry for because you just don't get it.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:44 AM
Don't follow the Championship much? The lower half have problems with depth, as well. It's not unique to MLS.

MLS is like the lower half of the Championship/the upper half of League 1. TFC has tended to look more like a League 1 team, which is why it's never made the playoffs.

It's unfair to crap on the league to the extent that you are. We all know it's not Premiership/Serie A/La Liga.

Yes, in fact I do follow the Championship a lot.
They do have problems with depth but the average quality of player is better. Sides like Palace would stuff TFC every time
Don't follow League 1 much ? Do you think TFC could handle teams like Norwich, Leeds, Millwall, Huddersfield etc ?

Once again...mid table conference to mid table league 2.

Sorry, I suppose I am crapping on the league, but not as much as I'm crapping on Preki and Johnston.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:46 AM
you're counting the world cup break.

in the next 32 days they play 8 games... a game every 4 days. That's a lot. Thank god they'll have the world cup break to recover. But if you play De Ro 90 minutes every 4 days, he may need more than 2 weeks off to get over his inevitable injuries. He also won't be as effective, considering we already saw him drop off in the second half of the Montreal game.

8 in the next 32 is one game every 4 days.
If they can't handle that then they're not fit.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 08:47 AM
In MLS if you win all your home games, you only need to tie a few on the road to make the playoffs.


Not even. The most games any team won last year was 13. How many games do we think TFC is going to win this year? So, the RSL game wasn't one of the most likely wins - at least there was no one there to complain that TFC didn't start their top lineup ;).

And you're right in your earlier post about Preki not having the players for a full pre-season, so that's a factor, too.

Preki is coaching an MLS team to try and get into the MLS playoffs. Comparisons to other leagues with different structures is pointless.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:49 AM
Trust me, I'm not 'just the kind of fan they want'. I am very vocal when it comes to things that bother me about the club, and have been since the first year. I've gained respect and pissed people off many times for making my opinion well known.


Again, 3 matches in 7 days. Add in travel time to Montreal and back. Add in travel time to Utah and back. The climate difference and cold weather encountered in Salt Lake and practice every day (to which I know very well Preki runs his players into the ground at every opportunity), makes for a fucking hell of a week.

If you can't see that, then I'm sorry but you're the one I feel sorry for because you just don't get it.

Get it ?
True, it was a busy week, (Montreal was at home BTW) but before that they played once the previous week and after RSL they don't play for another week.
As fit pro players they should be able to handle that no problem.

SweetOwnGoal
05-03-2010, 08:51 AM
Once again...mid table conference to mid table league 2.



Then why do League 1 quality players that come over struggle here?

Your assessment of the league is so wrong it's comical. Like, spit my coffee out laughing at how bizarre that statement is. Mid-table conference teams are semi-pro for Christ's sake. CSL teams would have a good run against them.

Honestly, that might be the most ignorant statement ever made on the public board of RPB. Congrats.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 08:52 AM
Get it ?
True, it was a busy week, (Montreal was at home BTW) but before that they played once the previous week and after RSL they don't play for another week.
As fit pro players they should be able to handle that no problem.

You're right, my bad on the Montreal travel. Still, this is the MLS, it's not any other league in the world. Aside from JDG, you have to expect the majority of our players are going to get tired from time to time. We don't have Paul Winsper anymore and from the sounds of it, all the fitness is being done by Preki. He will run our players into the ground, I guarantee that. So him giving a rest, if it's needed (and in DeRo's case it definitely was), is fine by me.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 08:53 AM
i said to my dad when we saw the starting lineup, preki's either going to look like a genius or an asshole... it didnt work, he admitted that, took a chance and now we move on.

but you know what bothers me even more? i used to be all about the 'parity' in the mls and i guess for the health of the league i still am - but it really riles me up to lose to a team whose stadium is so sparsely filled i can read where it says "salt lake" in the white seats in the stands... we have 20,000 every game and should buy and sell rsl and wipe them off the pitch every night... pisses me right off to think about.

/rant


This should be its own thread, it's a good rant.

Some teams are starting to break away from the pack - and it's not because they sell more tickets, which really is a pisser. As soon as the league announced a second DP slot. TFC should have been on the hunt - we keep hearing how they're one of only a "couple" of profitable teams, but we never hear how they'e throwing those profits around to make the team better. Yeah, yeah, salary cap, sure, but some teams manage to find ways around that if they're motivated enough.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 08:57 AM
Then why do League 1 quality players that come over struggle here?

Your assessment of the league is so wrong it's comical. Like, spit my coffee out laughing at how bizarre that statement is. Mid-table conference teams are semi-pro for Christ's sake. CSL teams would have a good run against them.

Honestly, that might be the most ignorant statement ever made on the public board of RPB. Congrats.
Sorry, but you'll find that most Conference teams are fully professional.
Have you ever watched that football ?
Ask anyone who really knows the game and that's the level they'll place it.....up to mid table Div 2.
Teams like Stevenage, York City, Oxford, Luton etc would handle TFC.
Good luck with your coffee.

SweetOwnGoal
05-03-2010, 09:01 AM
Sorry, but you'll find that most Conference teams are fully professional.
Have you ever watched that football ?
Ask anyone who really knows the game and that's the level they'll place it.....up to mid table Div 2.
Teams like Stevenage, York City, Oxford, Luton etc would handle TFC.
Good luck with your coffee.

Anyone that knows the game would call you a fool.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:03 AM
In all fairness, Preki has a team that mostly didn't go through a full pre-season. He's doing experimenting now that he should have been able to do before the season started. Blame Mo, as usual, for bringing in players late.

:thumbsup:

trane
05-03-2010, 09:06 AM
Squad rotation is a good thing in theory. But are we deep enought to be competetive when we rotate. No, and particullarly not at striker, were like it or not De Ro a non striker is our best striker.

I do think that the club should have done better defensively without them though. We conceded 12 corners, many were unforced/unecesary.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:07 AM
i said to my dad when we saw the starting lineup, preki's either going to look like a genius or an asshole... it didnt work, he admitted that, took a chance and now we move on.

but you know what bothers me even more? i used to be all about the 'parity' in the mls and i guess for the health of the league i still am - but it really riles me up to lose to a team whose stadium is so sparsely filled i can read where it says "salt lake" in the white seats in the stands... we have 20,000 every game and should buy and sell rsl and wipe them off the pitch every night... pisses me right off to think about.

/rant

OMG this speaks to me.

For the whole 90 minutes there wasn't a moment that I wasn't aware that this is the current MLS Champions on the pitch...and they couldn't fill a third of their stadium. And it bothered me the whole time. It made me wonder if "winning" really is the remedy to attendance woes at all like most experts claim? Wouldn't this be evidence to the contrary?

And we have 20,000 passionate fans going to every home game, sending sick amounts of money into MLS and MLSE coffers and we can't put together a competent team that can come in 8th place out of 13 or 14 teams. Just shoot me now.

stretchthetruth
05-03-2010, 09:07 AM
This should be its own thread, it's a good rant.

Some teams are starting to break away from the pack - and it's not because they sell more tickets, which really is a pisser. As soon as the league announced a second DP slot. TFC should have been on the hunt - we keep hearing how they're one of only a "couple" of profitable teams, but we never hear how they'e throwing those profits around to make the team better. Yeah, yeah, salary cap, sure, but some teams manage to find ways around that if they're motivated enough.

right. and as a TFC fan, i'm starting to think we should have another DP asap, as well as purchasing the 3rd because fuck knows we have the money here. it would send a message to the rest of the league and the supporters that we're serious about winning and doing everything we can to win. i'm not looking for rooney or messi, but a top level player towards the end of their prime would suffice in MLS - we have a dp midfielder, add a dp striker and cb.

sorry about the hijack

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:08 AM
Squad rotation is a good thing in theory. But are we deep enought to be competetive when we rotate. No, and particullarly not at striker, were like it or not De Ro a non striker is our best striker.

I do think that the club should have done better defensively without them though. We conceded 12 corners, many were unforced/unecesary.

If WE realize we aren't deep enough, why doesn't the coach of the team??? :noidea:

Isn't HE the professional?

dupont
05-03-2010, 09:10 AM
I thought it was a really bad move to sit both DeRo and DeGuzman. Maybe he could have started one and brought the other in at half time.
It's strange with DeGuzman because even when it seems like he is having a bad game, I feel like it's important to have him on the pitch. The other players just seem to play a bit more organized when he is out there.

trane
05-03-2010, 09:13 AM
If WE realize we aren't deep enough, why doesn't the coach of the team??? :noidea:

Isn't HE the professional?

Well you have been asking the same questions that I have.

Again I was a preki supporter in theory, I want him to do well, but so far I am less then convinced.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:15 AM
Not even. The most games any team won last year was 13. How many games do we think TFC is going to win this year? So, the RSL game wasn't one of the most likely wins - at least there was no one there to complain that TFC didn't start their top lineup ;).

And you're right in your earlier post about Preki not having the players for a full pre-season, so that's a factor, too.

Preki is coaching an MLS team to try and get into the MLS playoffs. Comparisons to other leagues with different structures is pointless.

I agree and don't agree with this statement BR.

Yes, in MLS you don't need to win on the road. You can make the playoffs without a single win on the road.

But what you DO need are draws on the road. That is an absolute must. And combined with that, a fortress at home where even drawing is bare minimum and a win is preferable. And absolutely minimal losses. I mean like 2 at absolute most.

Since I am not convinced this is a team that can make BMO a fortress, that makes taking points on the road all the more imperative.

The saddest thing about this? We'd all be happy if the team squeaked into the playoffs. But in the "big picture" of things, we should already be there and be expecting more. This team has done a fabulous job with getting us to a point where scraps are enough to make us happy. It's tragic.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 09:17 AM
OMG this speaks to me.

For the whole 90 minutes there wasn't a moment that I wasn't aware that this is the current MLS Champions on the pitch...and they couldn't fill a third of their stadium. And it bothered me the whole time. It made me wonder if "winning" really is the remedy to attendance woes at all like most experts claim? Wouldn't this be evidence to the contrary?

And we have 20,000 passionate fans going to every home game, sending sick amounts of money into MLS and MLSE coffers and we can't put together a competent team that can come in 8th place out of 13 or 14 teams. Just shoot me now.

Maybe it requires consistent winning. RSL weren't that good during the season last year, they only made the playoffs because we crapped out on the last game - remember they left BMO thinking they'd been knocked out the week before.

We'll see what having a new stadium and a good team does to New York. Of course, they'll add a second DP whether they're selling more tickets or not.

Maybe the league will get better, enter a new stage and markets like Utah won't make it. On the other hand, I really have to hand it to the ownership there, sticking with it and putting a decent front office together even without the ticket sales.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 09:17 AM
If WE realize we aren't deep enough, why doesn't the coach of the team??? :noidea:

Isn't HE the professional?


Who's to say he has the cap space, roster space, backing from the club or the right players to do anything further?

I give Preki credit for at least admitting his mistakes and how many times has he said he didn't have the players he needed?

Pachuco
05-03-2010, 09:19 AM
Squad rotation isn't the concern here. There is a proper way to rotate your squad without giving up three points. If you ask me, Preki should've forfitted the game against RSL because that was his plan all along anyways. There surely was a better way to rotate the squad without giving up the game from the beginning. Preki shouldn't get ripped apart because of the rotation, he should get ripped apart because of his tactics. Oh, and if you've every played soccer, you would know that 3 games in 7 or 8 days isn't all that difficult. For fucks sakes our rep team played 4 or 5 game tournaments on a weekend and then resumed the regular season schedule during the week. Dero probably could've used a rest, but Deguz? give me a break.

trane
05-03-2010, 09:21 AM
^ My issue is that they have a week untill the next game, so there would have been plenty of time to rest them this week.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:21 AM
Preki manned-up in the press conference, says it was a mistake but people here are so in-love with him that they refuse to accept his own words that it was a mistake and should have not have been attempted? That throws me for a major loop.

As for cap, roster and organizational support I see we're breaking out the excuse jar already for him. Might as well give him an extension on his contract now if that's the way we're going to be. You know...us Toronto fans claim we've had enough of "Leaf fever" and yet we fall into the same trap every time a new name appears under "coach" for any of our teams. It's a type pf messiah complex if I have every seen one.

jabbronies
05-03-2010, 09:22 AM
Except that we have a tough schedule that started last Sunday, including 3 games in a week, and then we have a busy month of mostly away matches coming up.

Squad rotation is needed, the tactics applied to the game were sound. The problem was the players didn't do their job on the pitch in the first 45 mins.

Gotta agree with this. I'm sure Preki's plan was to have this lineup hold the opposition to a scoreless draw by half, then bring in the fresh attackers to overrun RSL and score a goal or two for the win.

Fact is, they didn't do the job.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:23 AM
Squad rotation isn't the concern here. There is a proper way to rotate your squad without giving up three points. If you ask me, Preki should've forfitted the game against RSL because that was his plan all along anyways. There surely was a better way to rotate the squad without giving up the game from the beginning. Preki shouldn't get ripped apart because of the rotation, he should get ripped apart because of his tactics. Oh, and if you've every played soccer, you would know that 3 games in 7 or 8 days isn't all that difficult. For fucks sakes our rep team played 4 or 5 game tournaments on a weekend and then resumed the regular season schedule during the week. Dero probably could've used a rest, but Deguz? give me a break.

This crowd is funny. When people use the Seattle win as a glorious moment in TFC history and one of the best games we played blah blah blah and I point out that Seattle played a game 2 nights before they played us, it's not a valid reason.

But for us, it's the only reason possible.

Welcome to the land devoid of logic.

:noidea:

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 09:24 AM
The saddest thing about this? We'd all be happy if the team squeaked into the playoffs. But in the "big picture" of things, we should already be there and be expecting more. This team has done a fabulous job with getting us to a point where scraps are enough to make us happy. It's tragic.


You're right, I'd be happy if the team squeaked into the playoffs, and it is sad :D.

I just think Preki is making strategy based on what he's got to work with. In this league you can not get any points from about 10 games and still have a good season. It may not be a good idea to look at the schedule and pick the games you don't expect anything from, but at this point in the season it's not a terrible move.

If this road game at RSL had been in the last few games of the season there would have been a different strategy.

And who knows, maybe there was some dressing room message he was sending.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:26 AM
And who knows, maybe there was some dressing room message he was sending.

Don't say that! I was just accused of wearing a tin-foil hat for even suggesting it. :D

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 09:29 AM
Don't say that! I was just accused of wearing a tin-foil hat for even suggesting it. :D


And you also said something about "Logic."

Don't worry, I have many tin-foil hats and no logic at all - it's the only waytofollow sports in this town :D.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 09:30 AM
Anyone that knows the game would call you a fool.
Not sure about that.
Most people I know really know the game and that's where they would place the average MLS club.

denime
05-03-2010, 09:32 AM
Gotta agree with this. I'm sure Preki's plan was to have this lineup hold the opposition to a scoreless draw by half, then bring in the fresh attackers to overrun RSL and score a goal or two for the win.

Fact is, they didn't do the job.

Exactly,now we can argue was it a right move or not but intention was right.
4-5-1 was right formation,players letting him down is different story.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 09:34 AM
Anyone that knows the game would call you a fool.


I am seeing this more and more on this board and it's beginning to bug me.

This debate tactic is called "appealling to authority" and it is a logical fallacy. Saying "people who know this game would call you such and such" is not evidence nor proper discussion, it's just cop-out.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 09:34 AM
Sorry, but you'll find that most Conference teams are fully professional.
Have you ever watched that football ?
Ask anyone who really knows the game and that's the level they'll place it.....up to mid table Div 2.
Teams like Stevenage, York City, Oxford, Luton etc would handle TFC.
Good luck with your coffee.

Stevenage beat TFC? :lol:

They couldn't beat the Montreal Impact.

BTW, I have yet to see any reputable footie journalist, analyst, coach, or player who knows the North American game make the claim that MLS is Conference level. If it was, Andy Welsh (League 1) would have torn up this league.

I think you should give up your argument, it's not going to go very far, and you've given no evidence for your extreme statements.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 09:38 AM
I am seeing this more and more on this board and it's beginning to bug me.

This debate tactic is called "appealling to authority" and it is a logical fallacy. Saying "people who know this game would call you such and such" is not evidence nor proper discussion, it's just cop-out.


Beides, what does knowing the game have to do with MLS? ;)

Seriously, though, are there many leagues in the world as inconsistent as MLS? It's like comparing a teenager to an adult. Week to week do we really have any idea what to expect?

And, it's really about money. If MLS continues to grow, if it can sell more tickets and get better TV ratings the quality of play will get better. That's it. It isn't a mystery, it's just about the money.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 09:39 AM
I am seeing this more and more on this board and it's beginning to bug me.

This debate tactic is called "appealling to authority" and it is a logical fallacy. Saying "people who know this game would call you such and such" is not evidence nor proper discussion, it's just cop-out.

The problem is, one person making broad arguments without any evidence encourages people like Duane to dump on him. However, Duane should refrain from comments like that, it's easy to refute statements like Davenport are making without the need to belittle him.

trane
05-03-2010, 09:39 AM
^ I am not sure I am not aquinted with Legue one play, but one player does not make a team, there is much more to a team that individual skill. I suspect that a well organized fully-professional team from almost any level of European play would present some sort of challange for MLS teams. But I would say that MLS is on par with lowere level Serie B/Championship teams.

Lucky Strike
05-03-2010, 09:43 AM
Whatever.

In the next 60 days they play 9 times.

I feel sorry for them.


8 in the next 32 is one game every 4 days.
If they can't handle that then they're not fit.


Get it ?
True, it was a busy week, (Montreal was at home BTW) but before that they played once the previous week and after RSL they don't play for another week.
As fit pro players they should be able to handle that no problem.

As I'm reading this, it occurred to me that your definition of "fit" may be different from others', thereby explaining the difference of opinion you're having.

In a way, you're correct, professional footballers are fit enough to play all matches in a season. It's not like at the end of the 3rd game in a week (using TFC's example), they're puking on pitch, being dizzy and having cramps in their sides from having run so much. So in that sense, they're fit.

But the point is that over the long run, they'd be ineffective - still capable of running around for 90 minutes and not coughing up a lung doing it - but having poor matches because they're run down, especially if other teams are rotating their players.

Think about it, if zero rotation really was the best way to go, teams all over the world would have no more than 12-15 players, enough for a starting XI and a few more to cover for injuries. But since the overwhelming majority of professional teams have many more players than just 12-15, it leads one to believe that having more players to rotate the team is the distinctly better strategy.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 09:44 AM
^ I am not sure I am not aquinted with Legue one play, but one player does not make a team, there is much more to a team that individual skill. I suspect that a well organized fully-professional team from almost any level of European play would present some sort of challange for MLS teams. But I would say that MLS is on par with lowere level Serie B/Championship teams.

That's what the players who have played in both tend to say. I think they would know, wouldn't they?

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 09:50 AM
By the way, Andy Welsh, who was sub-par in MLS, is one of Yeovil's key players. For example:


With the pressure now off, Yeovil continued to press and in stoppage time Williams added another goal, turning in Andy Welsh's (http://topics.skysports.com/Andy+Welsh/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif cross from close range.http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11719_6127571,00.html

He's still doing well in League 1.

bgnewf
05-03-2010, 09:52 AM
http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/05/a-losing-coach-that-tries-is-better-than-a-losing-coach-that-does-not/

Feedback always welcome.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

In my video blog yesterday I posted, and agreed with, what virtually every TFC observer has been saying, along with the coach himself, that Preki got it so very wrong on Saturday. And by getting it wrong he cost the club a shot at a point or even three points.

But unlike most critics I do not find myself being upset about the result very much at all. Because you see Saturday night was one of the first times that this team was actually coached…ever. The fact that it did not work out as planned was in a few words almost irrelevant at this stage in the development of TFC as a team.

As it has been said a thousand times before MLS is a parity league. The draft, the cap, allocation dollars, and how the DP rule is implemented are all designed to create as level a playing field for clubs from top to bottom in the league as is possible. In a league such as this it is often the pieces of the puzzle that exist outside the salary cap that can be the difference between success and failure.

The facilities and amenities the club offers to its players make a difference. The medical staff make a difference. And most importantly the coaching staff makes a difference.

n this “parity” league you hope that these intangibles will steal you three or four games a season that you would not have a chance to win otherwise. I can only think in the history of Toronto FC of maybe two or three times when coaching decisions (tactical formations, substitutions, etc.) actually led the club to pick up points they should not have had a chance in getting.

Mo, Carver and Cummins were not exactly the second comings of Ferguson, Mourinho and Guardiola were they? And Preki is no Arsene Wenger.

But in this kind league you do have to from time to time take tactical risks if you want to maximize your chances of succeeding. And with risk comes the chance of failure.

I would agree with most pundits out there suggesting that the club is not good enough by a long shot to sit its two best players and go for a grind it out point on the road. But I hope that Preki does not allow himself to become gun shy on the tactical front based on the result in Salt Lake City Saturday night.

There will be times this season when our actual first coach in team history, one Mr. Predrag Radosavljević, will snatch some points that TFC should have never have had a chance in getting. I for one hope that day comes very soon.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 09:55 AM
Good points all bgnewf.

trane
05-03-2010, 10:15 AM
That's what the players who have played in both tend to say. I think they would know, wouldn't they?

Yes, and I agree. But the point is that MLS teams are for the most part not well organized, and an organized team gives them problems, hence the relatively poor record in CL play.

Welsh may be doing great in League 1, but that does not mean that TFC would roll over his team. Sure they may win, but I would expect a fairly close game.

trane
05-03-2010, 10:16 AM
http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2010/05/a-losing-coach-that-tries-is-better-than-a-losing-coach-that-does-not/

Feedback always welcome.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

In my video blog yesterday I posted, and agreed with, what virtually every TFC observer has been saying, along with the coach himself, that Preki got it so very wrong on Saturday. And by getting it wrong he cost the club a shot at a point or even three points.

But unlike most critics I do not find myself being upset about the result very much at all. Because you see Saturday night was one of the first times that this team was actually coached…ever. The fact that it did not work out as planned was in a few words almost irrelevant at this stage in the development of TFC as a team.

As it has been said a thousand times before MLS is a parity league. The draft, the cap, allocation dollars, and how the DP rule is implemented are all designed to create as level a playing field for clubs from top to bottom in the league as is possible. In a league such as this it is often the pieces of the puzzle that exist outside the salary cap that can be the difference between success and failure.

The facilities and amenities the club offers to its players make a difference. The medical staff make a difference. And most importantly the coaching staff makes a difference.

n this “parity” league you hope that these intangibles will steal you three or four games a season that you would not have a chance to win otherwise. I can only think in the history of Toronto FC of maybe two or three times when coaching decisions (tactical formations, substitutions, etc.) actually led the club to pick up points they should not have had a chance in getting.

Mo, Carver and Cummins were not exactly the second comings of Ferguson, Mourinho and Guardiola were they? And Preki is no Arsene Wenger.

But in this kind league you do have to from time to time take tactical risks if you want to maximize your chances of succeeding. And with risk comes the chance of failure.

I would agree with most pundits out there suggesting that the club is not good enough by a long shot to sit its two best players and go for a grind it out point on the road. But I hope that Preki does not allow himself to become gun shy on the tactical front based on the result in Salt Lake City Saturday night.

There will be times this season when our actual first coach in team history, one Mr. Predrag Radosavljević, will snatch some points that TFC should have never have had a chance in getting. I for one hope that day comes very soon.

For my part I thank god that Preki is not Arsene Wenger.

Rudi
05-03-2010, 10:24 AM
I am seeing this more and more on this board and it's beginning to bug me.

This debate tactic is called "appealling to authority" and it is a logical fallacy. Saying "people who know this game would call you such and such" is not evidence nor proper discussion, it's just cop-out.
And Davenport's retarded assertion that MLS is mid-Conference quality (with only his "and I say again"-style "evidence" to back up his points) is laudable and a case study in proper, credible debate tactics?

trane
05-03-2010, 10:29 AM
^ Why is is "retarded" would you say that PRI are of mid-conference quality? We did not get by them.

Rudi
05-03-2010, 10:29 AM
I suspect that a well organized fully-professional team from almost any level of European play would present some sort of challange for MLS teams.
No. Most European football, just like most football the world over, is horrible.

People tend to equate "European play" with La Liga, EPL or Serie A, but forget about the hundreds of tiers below them.

The top tier in... oh I don't know... Latvia, for instance, would be dominated by MLS teams. There's a lot more to the European continent than the Big Four leagues. Most of it sucks.

Rudi
05-03-2010, 10:30 AM
^ Why is is "retarded" would you say that PRI are of mid-conference quality? We did not get by them.
So you're equating two game played between PRI and TFC as indicative of an entire league, with 15 years of history and thousands of games played?

In that case, surely every lower level team that knocks off an EPL side in FA Cup play is Champions League quality, right?

trane
05-03-2010, 10:31 AM
^ Sorry, dude, I have seen all levels of European football at most levels. I cannot agree. Sure they do not have the same skill level athleticims, BUT they do have the knoweldge of the game, footy IQ, and team play down. That comes from coaching training, from early age. It is an advantage much as it is an advantage for Canada in hockey.

The MLS is bad footy, it is just the reality. It may improve but right now it is not good footy.

trane
05-03-2010, 10:34 AM
So you're equating two game played between PRI and TFC as indicative of an entire league, with 15 years of history and thousands of games played?

In that case, surely every lower level team that knocks off an EPL side in FA Cup play is Champions League quality, right?

What? How does one follow the other.

Davenport said that League one teams could compete against MLS team. Well PRI you seem to agree are a League one level team ( or bellow) guess what they compete against TFC.

You adhere to the Arsne Wenger school, that it is all about tallent. There is more then tallent that makes a winning side.

Rudi
05-03-2010, 10:38 AM
What? How does one follow the other.

Davenport said that League one teams could compete against MLS team. Well PRI you seem to agree are a League one level team ( or bellow) guess what they compete against TFC.

You adhere to the Arsne Wenger school, that it is all about tallent. There is more then tallent that makes a winning side.
Actually, I never mentioned PRI nor ever brought them into my argument (until you brought it up), yet somehow you are making judgements of my supposed assessment of PRI's quality.

And how does one follow the other? You tell me since you brought it up.

Lower level teams beat higher tier teams all the time. Since you're so well versed in European footy you surely know this.

Regardless, PRI scoring one goal against TFC in two games doesn't tell me anything about the relative level of either team, or the league that either team plays in, versus various Euro leagues. All it tells me is that TFC underachieves, and other results tell me that TFC underachieves a lot.

trane
05-03-2010, 10:45 AM
^ When I brought it up, you did not say not PRI are of a higher quality, so I assumed that you agreed with that premis.

MLS team continouly strugle with what must be characterized as lowere level teams. It is not a one off, it tells you that teh league is not very good. So does the fact that they have a hard time putting a series of passes together, make basic defensive mistakes, most goals are scored not from effective attacking play but horrible defensive play, ect. ect.

You claimed that lower level footy in Europe is horrible, well I have seen lowere level teams in Sweden, Italy, Serbia, Croatia, and while their skill level was not great, they had the basics down and the games were entertaining. Alot of MLS games look like two sides of north american kids that have never played before.

jabbronies
05-03-2010, 10:45 AM
Exactly,now we can argue was it a right move or not but intention was right.
4-5-1 was right formation,players letting him down is different story.


This early in the season. I think the intention was right. Test out the squad on the road and see how they fair, it's not like they are winning on the road. Trying anything is better than what they've been doing so far on the road.

However, I do think Preki was premature in thinking that this team was ready to sit all 3 of his attacking options. This meant that his defense would be bombarded constantly with no attacking chances to give the defense a break.

He would've been better keeping Julian on the field and sitting Dero and White. At least Julian could fight in the middle and break up opposing attacks before they became a threat and potential create something. Then in the 2nd half, take out Julian and bring in Dero and white.

jabbronies
05-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Also, this isn't an MLS vs. Euro club thread. Points on the league comparisons have been made.

Lets keep it on topic.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Regardless, PRI scoring one goal against TFC in two games doesn't tell me anything about the relative level of either team, or the league that either team plays in, versus various Euro leagues. All it tells me is that TFC underachieves, and other results tell me that TFC underachieves a lot.

... and I suspect that some might be basing their impression of MLS based on TFC. Well the fact is, TFC is one of the poorer teams in the league. The best in MLS have done much better. A case in point was DC United in their glory days winning the CONCACAF Champion's Cup.

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 10:49 AM
Also, this isn't an MLS vs. Euro club thread. Points on the league comparisons have been made.

Lets keep it on topic.

I think that squad rotation is good in principle, but TFC doesn't have the depth to ever rest their 2 best players. One maybe, both, no.

trane
05-03-2010, 10:50 AM
^ There have been good sides in the MLS, but overall team play is sub-par. I have seen every team in the MLS, and they have all been sup-par. There have been games like Seatle in the first game last year, that have looked like a serious side, but for the most part what I have seen on the field has been just about as shit as TFC.



Sorry, Jabbro, I just so you post.

SweetOwnGoal
05-03-2010, 11:02 AM
The problem is, one person making broad arguments without any evidence encourages people like Duane to dump on him. However, Duane should refrain from comments like that, it's easy to refute statements like Davenport are making without the need to belittle him.

I used the "most people that know football" thing in a direct reaction to his argument -- "Most people that know football would put MLS at a mid-conference level" is what he said...

If you truly believe that MLS is at a mid-conference level you really are foolish. It's an incredibly ignorant stance based on an over inflated view of British football and an under appreciation of American (and, to a lesser extent, Canadian) soccer.
(http://soccernet.espn.go.com/team?id=319&cc=5901) Kidderminster Harriers are mid-table in the Conference right now.
Davenport – I want you to show me player for player how the Harriers are better than a typical MLS side. You pick the MLS side. Here is the Harriers roster: http://www.harriers.co.uk/page/ClubHome/0,,10438,00.html

trane
05-03-2010, 11:06 AM
^ Again this is not the thread for it. But your assessment is again based on this "North American" notion that you can figure out the quality of a team comparing them player for player. There is more to it then that. This is a team game.

Again I disagree that MLS is League One level, but I do not think that his comments are that outrageous, and MLS is generaly a disorganized league with poor team play.

JDG said the same by the way.


By the way I think the exercise you suggest is well "silly" if I was not a TFC supporter I would not know more then half our roster, I certainly fo not know a League One roster. Why do you not show us some footage of their play?

Whoop
05-03-2010, 11:10 AM
That probably falls more to coaching than the players. Bring in quality coaches and even with the same players, the quality of play improves?

MLS is like the CFL. They just recycle coaches. NYRB brings a new coach, from outside MLS, and they're in first place. Coincidence?

Pachuco
05-03-2010, 11:10 AM
I used the "most people that know football" thing in a direct reaction to his argument -- "Most people that know football would put MLS at a mid-conference level" is what he said...

If you truly believe that MLS is at a mid-conference level you really are foolish. It's an incredibly ignorant stance based on an over inflated view of British football and an under appreciation of American (and, to a lesser extent, Canadian) soccer.
Kidderminster Harriers are mid-table in the Conference right now.
Davenport – I want you to show me player for player how the Harriers are better than a typical MLS side. You pick the MLS side. Here is the Harriers roster: http://www.harriers.co.uk/page/ClubHome/0,,10438,00.html

Do you know the players on that roster? I don't know a single one. That's not to say they aren't better then us. Ask any of their fans if they know a player on our own roster? they probably don't.

jloome
05-03-2010, 11:11 AM
THis thread got pissier than I normally like these days but watching everyone argue at cross purposes is somewhat frustrating.

Can I suggest a few realistic compromise positions here that reflect both sides, since it occurs to me that both have reasonable stances?

To whit:

1) You can't compare North American football with European football because the athletes themselves differ greatly.

Euro footie experts will tell you American soccer is about athleticism and battle, while European players grow up learning a different tactical -- and more team-based -- approach. The kids here play multiple sports growing up and then excel as soccer players. The kids there start as soccer players and end as soccer players.

So, you can't compare leagues directly.

MLS off-the-ball-movement and tactical play probably isn't much better than conference-to-league one, depending on the team. But our players' technique, inidividual skill level and athleticism ranges all the way from the Premiership to League One, usually well above what you would find below the top tier of league one/average Coca Cola Championship side.

Ergo, it is it's own game. YOu can't compare it. USL is MLS without the technique, that's all. Some in that league read the game well, others poorly. Given that scouts look at repetitive behaviours as a heavy indicator of future success, I'd suggest fewer at that level read the game as well as in MLS, either.



2) You can play defensively in almost any formation. So you don't need to be in a 4-5-1, but yes, it's easy to defend with an extra midfielder who lays back all the time by a flat-back four. Did we need to do it to play defensively against RSL? No, and it didn't work anyway, so it's moot. The coach himslef has admitted it was a gamble that didn't work, so to all those defending the choice, please, get your heads out: we lost.

He admitted it didn't work. And a coach's responsibility extends to putting players on the pitch who know how to make it work, so even if the tactic was good, and the players bad, it's still his responsibility. Good on him for manning up to it immediately, which shows more strength of character than most bosses in this league have shown.

3) Players don't need to be at optimum to perform well, but they are more likely to do so. You don't play Wednesday, fly Friday and play again Saturday -- AT EXTREME ALTITUDE - - without fatigue affecting things. It made sense, then, to have some offense on the bench so that if we held them close in the first, that person would b coming in fresh and with a slight (Davenport: read slight) advantage as a result.

Having said that, generally foreign teams only rotate when they have players of equivalent calibre. THat's why it's rotational policy -- because it rotates constantly. Teams have 25-30 man squads because of injury, mostly. One player plus one backup = 22 players. Throw in 3-to-8 more who are under contract but not making the team or youths, and you have a 30-man squad.

But we don't have the talent to rotate as a policy. Unfortunately, Preki's still so new and his players are so new, that figuring out which ones gel together as a first team is gonna mean some different looking sides early.

So we got a combo of rotational/rest/assessment this week and it went badly. But from his perspective, RSL lost has lost at home ONCE in 18 months, so it made sense to gamble there.

trane
05-03-2010, 11:15 AM
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jloome
05-03-2010, 11:18 AM
Oh, and Duane: "Semi-pro" just means they make less. Almost all of the players at the conference and in the north and south leagues directly below it started off in the youth academies of top pro teams.

So Kidderminister Harriers will have guys who were trained by premiership and ccc teams. They just didn't make the final cut. And there are always guys at that level who can play at higher levels, including MLS -- good example is Jason DevoS, who went non-league with Darlington before cracking the leagues, or Simeon Jackson, who started with Rushden and Diamonds.

In fact, people seem to forget that conference teams are promoted to the league and vice versa. Half the clubs in the conference right now were long-time league teams at one point. Newport, which won the Conference North this year, averages over 4,000 fans a game and was in the league for about 100 years, until 1976. John Aldridge, the liverpool great of the era, played there for several seasons before going up.

EDIT: Ha, Trane, you posted while I was writing my addendum and helped make my point.

trane
05-03-2010, 11:18 AM
THis thread got pissier than I normally like these days but watching everyone argue at cross purposes is somewhat frustrating.

Can I suggest a few realistic compromise positions here that reflect both sides, since it occurs to me that both have reasonable stances?

To whit:

1) You can't compare North American football with European football because the athletes themselves differ greatly.

Euro footie experts will tell you American soccer is about athleticism and battle, while European players grow up learning a different tactical -- and more team-based -- approach. The kids here play multiple sports growing up and then excel as soccer players. The kids there start as soccer players and end as soccer players.

So, you can't compare leagues directly.

MLS off-the-ball-movement and tactical play probably isn't much better than conference-to-league one, depending on the team. But our players' technique, inidividual skill level and athleticism ranges all the way from the Premiership to League One, usually well above what you would find below the top tier of league one/average Coca Cola Championship side.

Ergo, it is it's own game. YOu can't compare it. USL is MLS without the technique, that's all. Some in that league read the game well, others poorly. Given that scouts look at repetitive behaviours as a heavy indicator of future success, I'd suggest fewer at that level read the game as well as in MLS, either.



2) You can play defensively in almost any formation. So you don't need to be in a 4-5-1, but yes, it's easy to defend with an extra midfielder who lays back all the time by a flat-back four. Did we need to do it to play defensively against RSL? No, and it didn't work anyway, so it's moot. The coach himslef has admitted it was a gamble that didn't work, so to all those defending the choice, please, get your heads out: we lost.

He admitted it didn't work. And a coach's responsibility extends to putting players on the pitch who know how to make it work, so even if the tactic was good, and the players bad, it's still his responsibility. Good on him for manning up to it immediately, which shows more strength of character than most bosses in this league have shown.

3) Players don't need to be at optimum to perform well, but they are more likely to do so. You don't play Wednesday, fly Friday and play again Saturday -- AT EXTREME ALTITUDE - - without fatigue affecting things. It made sense, then, to have some offense on the bench so that if we held them close in the first, that person would b coming in fresh and with a slight (Davenport: read slight) advantage as a result.

Having said that, generally foreign teams only rotate when they have players of equivalent calibre. THat's why it's rotational policy -- because it rotates constantly. Teams have 25-30 man squads because of injury, mostly. One player plus one backup = 22 players. Throw in 3-to-8 more who are under contract but not making the team or youths, and you have a 30-man squad.

But we don't have the talent to rotate as a policy. Unfortunately, Preki's still so new and his players are so new, that figuring out which ones gel together as a first team is gonna mean some different looking sides early.

So we got a combo of rotational/rest/assessment this week and it went badly. But from his perspective, RSL lost has lost at home ONCE in 18 months, so it made sense to gamble there.


I agree with this.

trane
05-03-2010, 11:20 AM
That probably falls more to coaching than the players. Bring in quality coaches and even with the same players, the quality of play improves?

MLS is like the CFL. They just recycle coaches. NYRB brings a new coach, from outside MLS, and they're in first place. Coincidence?


I have voiced this for a while, we need to bring coaching from outside the leageue, but coaches that know how to teach the side.

Shaughno
05-03-2010, 11:21 AM
THis thread got pissier than I normally like these days but watching everyone argue at cross purposes is somewhat frustrating.

Can I suggest a few realistic compromise positions here that reflect both sides, since it occurs to me that both have reasonable stances?

To whit:

1) You can't compare North American football with European football because the athletes themselves differ greatly.

Euro footie experts will tell you American soccer is about athleticism and battle, while European players grow up learning a different tactical -- and more team-based -- approach. The kids here play multiple sports growing up and then excel as soccer players. The kids there start as soccer players and end as soccer players.

So, you can't compare leagues directly.

MLS off-the-ball-movement and tactical play probably isn't much better than conference-to-league one, depending on the team. But our players' technique, inidividual skill level and athleticism ranges all the way from the Premiership to League One, usually well above what you would find below the top tier of league one/average Coca Cola Championship side.

Ergo, it is it's own game. YOu can't compare it. USL is MLS without the technique, that's all. Some in that league read the game well, others poorly. Given that scouts look at repetitive behaviours as a heavy indicator of future success, I'd suggest fewer at that level read the game as well as in MLS, either.



2) You can play defensively in almost any formation. So you don't need to be in a 4-5-1, but yes, it's easy to defend with an extra midfielder who lays back all the time by a flat-back four. Did we need to do it to play defensively against RSL? No, and it didn't work anyway, so it's moot. The coach himslef has admitted it was a gamble that didn't work, so to all those defending the choice, please, get your heads out: we lost.

He admitted it didn't work. And a coach's responsibility extends to putting players on the pitch who know how to make it work, so even if the tactic was good, and the players bad, it's still his responsibility. Good on him for manning up to it immediately, which shows more strength of character than most bosses in this league have shown.

3) Players don't need to be at optimum to perform well, but they are more likely to do so. You don't play Wednesday, fly Friday and play again Saturday -- AT EXTREME ALTITUDE - - without fatigue affecting things. It made sense, then, to have some offense on the bench so that if we held them close in the first, that person would b coming in fresh and with a slight (Davenport: read slight) advantage as a result.

Having said that, generally foreign teams only rotate when they have players of equivalent calibre. THat's why it's rotational policy -- because it rotates constantly. Teams have 25-30 man squads because of injury, mostly. One player plus one backup = 22 players. Throw in 3-to-8 more who are under contract but not making the team or youths, and you have a 30-man squad.

But we don't have the talent to rotate as a policy. Unfortunately, Preki's still so new and his players are so new, that figuring out which ones gel together as a first team is gonna mean some different looking sides early.

So we got a combo of rotational/rest/assessment this week and it went badly. But from his perspective, RSL lost has lost at home ONCE in 18 months, so it made sense to gamble there.


Good post Jer.

Section 110
05-03-2010, 11:26 AM
You're just the kind of fan they want.
Feeling sorry for them when they're playing twice a week (again, don't split hairs)

Maybe the reason they're gassed is they're not fit.

Again, professional athletes should be able to play twice a week easily.

People need to stop making excuses for them.

Not excuses, mate. This is how it's done in Europe, too. That's why you often see a mix of bench players and starters for cup games in any league. Fitness is huge, but injuries, knocks and sprains, are inevitable and fitness level can only help to heal those things so much. If you don't think De Ro deserved a game off, I'm not sure what amount of effort would please you. The scary thing is that we can't afford to give him one.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 11:28 AM
I have voiced this for a while, we need to bring coaching from outside the leageue, but coaches that know how to teach the side.

Short of Bruce Arena, Hans Backe has a pretty good coaching pedigree.

But then again so did Carlos Queiroz. And Walter Zenga got his start in MLS but he was a disaster. Then again, he had no experience.

trane
05-03-2010, 11:42 AM
Oh, and Duane: "Semi-pro" just means they make less. Almost all of the players at the conference and in the north and south leagues directly below it started off in the youth academies of top pro teams.

So Kidderminister Harriers will have guys who were trained by premiership and ccc teams. They just didn't make the final cut. And there are always guys at that level who can play at higher levels, including MLS -- good example is Jason DevoS, who went non-league with Darlington before cracking the leagues, or Simeon Jackson, who started with Rushden and Diamonds.

In fact, people seem to forget that conference teams are promoted to the league and vice versa. Half the clubs in the conference right now were long-time league teams at one point. Newport, which won the Conference North this year, averages over 4,000 fans a game and was in the league for about 100 years, until 1976. John Aldridge, the liverpool great of the era, played there for several seasons before going up.

EDIT: Ha, Trane, you posted while I was writing my addendum and helped make my point.

I was thinking that as I was reading your post.

Wull
05-03-2010, 11:46 AM
I don't know why people keep throwing the word tactics around. Our DP and ex-striker have already said tactics have never been spoken about once by the coaching staff

Detroit_TFC
05-03-2010, 11:54 AM
I have voiced this for a while, we need to bring coaching from outside the leageue, but coaches that know how to teach the side.

The problem is a quality lower league coach who is moving up the ladder (getting hired for better and better teams) has no incentive to come to MLS, it derails their progress in the English (or German or whatever) pyramid. Backe is more of an exception and most people probably didn't anticipate he would do as well as he is. Past performance of coaches with non-MLS backgrounds (ie hasn't been a player in MLS) has been pretty poor.

trane
05-03-2010, 12:03 PM
^ Agreed, it is a problem, but one I hope we can work around.


Wull, that is another can of worms all together.

jazzy
05-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Overall, I kind of disagree with Preki's assessment that rotating the squad as he did was a failure. As others have mentioned, perhaps the tactics employed didn't quite work, but that shouldn't mean that we leap to the conclusion of the rotation itself being wrong.

The reason, of course, is that it's an absolute necessity. We can't have De Ro, JDG et al. playing 90 minutes every game. They'll be burnt out by August; this month especially, with all those games, it's vital that guys come in and out of the team.

Remember also that this is the first time Preki tried something like this, and those guys who came on still aren't fully familiar with each other yet. I would say that this process of rotation needs to continue, not only to build confidence in some of the bench players, but also to make sure our stars don't burn out.

It would be quite a shame if after one game of this Preki loses confidence in this strategy and starts running some guys into the ground. That will just lead to fatigue and fatigue leads to injuries and nothing good will come of it.

You 're right......unfortunately.....it does show up our lack of talent.....after playing us once teams just have to take DeRo & JDG out of the game and we're done, someone eventually has to step up

torontocelt
05-03-2010, 12:23 PM
However, I think the real reason is that Preki pretty much wrote three points off before the match. RSL have an amazing home record, and we are shite on the road - so even with a full squad, we probably would have lost.

Better to rest players so they are fresher for a tough match against Chicago at home, were we are much more likely to get points.



Exactly! Preki already had us down as losing this match and quite rightly so. This team has shown us nothing that they could go there and win agaist RSL. At least he got another look at players who are not first team.

bgnewf
05-03-2010, 12:37 PM
Exactly! Preki already had us down as losing this match and quite rightly so. This team has shown us nothing that they could go their and win agaist RSL. At least he got another look at players who are not first team.

In the last 45 minutes of the game with arguably our A-Squad out there we outscored them 1-nil and kept the lid squarely on when it comes to goals against. We had significant periods of possession and could easily have scored another goal to salvage a point.

With due respect, I think we may have been watching a different match for the last 45 minutes. Furthermore, if Preki was writing the game off, then why the wholesale changes at the start of the second half?

H Bomb
05-03-2010, 12:39 PM
I only read the first post but its entirely wrong. The result of that game sits at the feet of the manager. The dude who sat our two best players in a winable road game. Whos defensive tactics were down two nil in one half. It was a literal failure. Yes you need to keep players fresh but to just avoid offence all together...well thats very dumb. Im not willing to throw him under the bus but our manager lost a game for us, which we cant afford given our players. It was about the worst managed game I have ever seen in my life, with no hyperbole used. No use in having a fresh team that loses every week.

pekduck
05-03-2010, 12:40 PM
^
since when playing at RSL is a expected winnable road game

H Bomb
05-03-2010, 12:49 PM
Theyre about as bad a team as the league has. If we dont think we can win there then we should stop wasting plane fuel

Oldtimer
05-03-2010, 12:54 PM
Theyre about as bad a team as the league has. If we dont think we can win there then we should stop wasting plane fuel

RSL almost always wins at home, and almost always loses on the road. I'm not sure how you can say they are a bad team, just a middling one (like TFC).

jabbronies
05-03-2010, 12:56 PM
Theyre about as bad a team as the league has. If we dont think we can win there then we should stop wasting plane fuel

I guess you didn't read the part in the thread that said RSL only lost 2 games at home in the last 2 years.

"...RSL had the best home record in MLS last year, going 9-1-5 at Rio Tinto Stadium. In 2008, RSL also lost only once at home, going 8-1-6."

H Bomb
05-03-2010, 12:57 PM
They really are a crap team...like tfc

Krasno.pL.
05-03-2010, 12:58 PM
They really are a crap team...like tfc

they won the Championship with that squad.. :)

Rudi
05-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Theyre about as bad a team as the league has. If we dont think we can win there then we should stop wasting plane fuel
I wish TFC were as bad as RSL.

We'd have an MLS Cup and an almost perfect home record.

H Bomb
05-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Im sorry guys. Youre making excuses for your team to continue being shit. Did you watch the actual game the other night. We were beaten by a bad team. And we played with no offence for a half. Youre welcome to be as cool with that as you like.

ilikemusic
05-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Nevermind at Salt Lake, when has TFC ever gone into any road game with a reasonable expectation of victory?

Im glad Preki sat DeRo and JDG. If we are going to have any success at all this year it will be because of them. No sense running them into the ground for May games in Salt Lake.

H Bomb
05-03-2010, 01:03 PM
I wish TFC were as bad as RSL.

We'd have an MLS Cup and an almost perfect home record.

Wheres the winky emoticon. Cause us/them are perfect sister clubs in that manner...and another example of why the playoff system to determine a champion is very poor.

H Bomb
05-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Nevermind at Salt Lake, when has TFC ever gone into any road game with a reasonable expectation of victory?

Im glad Preki sat DeRo and JDG. If we are going to have any success at all this year it will be because of them. No sense running them into the ground for May games in Salt Lake.

This blows my mind. Its a league game. I cant even articulate what a terrible point of view this is.

sulfur
05-03-2010, 01:08 PM
RSL came into Saturday's game with one (yes, 1) win. Behind TFC in the standings.

There was every reason to think that there might've been a win available there.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 01:09 PM
This blows my mind. Its a league game. I cant even articulate what a terrible point of view this is.

It's because of this playoff mentality.

If there was promotion/relegation, believe me, we'd have the full squad out there.

Whoop
05-03-2010, 01:11 PM
RSL came into Saturday's game with one (yes, 1) win. Behind TFC in the standings.

There was every reason to think that there might've been a win available there.

And some key injuries to boot.

I could see altitude being the biggest issue really.

ilikemusic
05-03-2010, 01:13 PM
This blows my mind. Its a league game. I cant even articulate what a terrible point of view this is.

Welcome to MLS.

"THE PAGE"
05-03-2010, 01:22 PM
This is a low, low quality product we are seeing on the field. As an investment of time, it rates pretty ridiculous to watch this drivel week in, week out considering we have all been brought up watching quality international football. I myself support TFC and am not a fairweather fan. I have season's and I sing my heart out at home games and have made 4 away game trips over the past few years.....I will not trash the team because that's fickle. I'm just at the point where between a busy and hectic life and work schedule, if I have to pick between watching top club or international football, or this...I need the final product to be much more worthwhile.

I feel if we are paying to watch "professional" football, then the overall quality of the final product on the field needs to step up soon. Four seasons in and we are either getting horrifically outplayed or getting fluke wins from mostly gifted goals. Again, I do not trash TFC, I want them to succeed. However, I watch professional football because I derive satisfaction from it. I watch it because I get excited to see the beautiful game played as it should be by those that can play it far better than I. I don't invest countless hours of my free time and money to feel eternally frustrated...there's dating for that. lol ;)

Seriously though, I'm going to continue to go to home games since there is still a great match day experience at BMO apart from the disappointment on display. However, I'm also done watching away games on television at some sparsely filled American football stadium which is akin to flushing 2 hours of your time down a toilet.

I await the day when I am excited to tune into these again. I think that's a fair expectation to have after all.

World Cup in 6 weeks!!!!!! =)


Totally Agree! If we dont voice our concerns this rubbish will continue. We won the 2nd Half with Dero & Deguz 1-0! what was Preki thinking? its only the 6th game of the season and he thinks he has a deep squad (maybe even kiddminster has a deeper squad) to start rotating as if we are playing Champs league, FA CUP, Carling Cup! Maybe hes getting brainwashed my MO, and he should stop picking up Mo's scotch filled stuttering calls.

BTW maybe we should have a freindly between TFC and Kidminster, oh nad bring your date! she might have a better laugh than at Yuk Yuks

Pachuco
05-03-2010, 01:33 PM
I guess you didn't read the part in the thread that said RSL only lost 2 games at home in the last 2 years.

"...RSL had the best home record in MLS last year, going 9-1-5 at Rio Tinto Stadium. In 2008, RSL also lost only once at home, going 8-1-6."

Thanks for this. Just made me realize that RSL has 11 ties at home in the same two years. We didn't tie RSL. Nuff said.

If we tied yesterday, this thread wouldn't exist.

jabbronies
05-03-2010, 01:36 PM
Im sorry guys. Youre making excuses for your team to continue being shit. Did you watch the actual game the other night. We were beaten by a bad team. And we played with no offence for a half. Youre welcome to be as cool with that as you like.

Fact - We are shit on the road. We have always been shit on the road (3 years and counting). There have been 0 changes in quality to this team to suggest that we should be better on the road this year than any other year.

So for me, going into every away game, I see TFC as the loosing side trying to get a draw.

So Preki going and doing what he did, I could care less. They were going to loose anyways. They've proved to me that no matter how shit the team (5-0 to last place NY) they'll 9/10 times loose on the road.

DichioTFC
05-03-2010, 02:16 PM
Preki seems to be a players coach. He hasn't once blamed the players, he's said in every media scrum that I've seen that the players are working hard, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he has said anything negative directly about any specific players...

I think he's publicly taking responsibility for the failed experiment knowing that it was the entire first half squad's fault for letting the team go down 2-0.

Still, because we lost the game, this experiment was a failure. However, I wouldn't mind seeing a similar squad mixup in similar circumstances down the road.

Beach_Red
05-03-2010, 02:19 PM
It's because of this playoff mentality.

If there was promotion/relegation, believe me, we'd have the full squad out there.

Why? We'd still be aiming for the middle of the pack. Look, everyone considers last year a disaster because we didn't make the playoffs. If the league had relegation, we wouldn't have been relegated and last year would be considered a success.

How is not finishing in the bottom three places better than not finishing in the top eight?

torontocelt
05-03-2010, 02:55 PM
In the last 45 minutes of the game with arguably our A-Squad out there we outscored them 1-nil and kept the lid squarely on when it comes to goals against. We had significant periods of possession and could easily have scored another goal to salvage a point.

With due respect, I think we may have been watching a different match for the last 45 minutes. Furthermore, if Preki was writing the game off, then why the wholesale changes at the start of the second half?

If we could easily have scored another goal then why didn't we?

What I meant was before the game he probably thought we were going to be beaten, why wouldn't he think that considering our poor away record, the fact we were playing a good mls team, the fact we were playing at altitude and the fact that our players were playing their third game in a week?

Everything pointed towards a defeat. He switched his team up keeping our two best players off the pitch and started with other squad players. This enabled him to see what they had to offer, as it turns out after the first half I think he realised that perhaps some of them were not up to the task. He then put on his better players in the hope that either we could pull something back in the game or avoid another heavy defeat.

I am not Preki and I do not know what he was basing his tactics on, this is all speculation but that is my take on it.

trane
05-03-2010, 03:47 PM
Nevermind at Salt Lake, when has TFC ever gone into any road game with a reasonable expectation of victory?

Im glad Preki sat DeRo and JDG. If we are going to have any success at all this year it will be because of them. No sense running them into the ground for May games in Salt Lake.

Why not play him first half, hope for a result, and then sit him in the second, as opposed to going down 2 and bringing him on when it was almost a certainty that the points had been lost.

De Ro and JDG did not get rest anyway, but instead of playing in a winable game they played in a game in which the points were lost. Once we were two down they may as well kept them sitting.

trane
05-03-2010, 03:50 PM
RSL came into Saturday's game with one (yes, 1) win. Behind TFC in the standings.

There was every reason to think that there might've been a win available there.

Agreed. As you know I all about defevensive football, but a team needs some offensive punch even a defensive one.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 04:26 PM
I used the "most people that know football" thing in a direct reaction to his argument -- "Most people that know football would put MLS at a mid-conference level" is what he said...

If you truly believe that MLS is at a mid-conference level you really are foolish. It's an incredibly ignorant stance based on an over inflated view of British football and an under appreciation of American (and, to a lesser extent, Canadian) soccer.
Kidderminster Harriers are mid-table in the Conference right now.
Davenport – I want you to show me player for player how the Harriers are better than a typical MLS side. You pick the MLS side. Here is the Harriers roster: http://www.harriers.co.uk/page/ClubHome/0,,10438,00.html
Kidderminster are in the bottom half of the Conference so wouldn't qualify.
I said an average MLS side would equate to bottom half Div 2 down to top half of the Conference. I'll stand by that.
TFC do have 2 quality players who are good enough for the Championship, but there are many in the squad who wouldn't be playing league football. Ergo the average.

v00d00daddy
05-03-2010, 05:24 PM
I don't like Preki's idea for the first half but those of you who think that we would have won that game had JDG and DeRo started....pff.

How much better did we look in the second half? Really.

We won a marginal pk and had a bit more of the ball. It's not as if we had 3 points locked up and would have won with certainty.

Not to mention how many of you would have been bitching and moaning had JDG or DeRo pulled up with some kind of fatigue related injury. 3 games in that short a time span requires some kind of attention.

I don't like what Preki chose to do but resting people was the right idea. Just the wrong implementation.

uncle p
05-03-2010, 05:34 PM
Im glad Preki sat DeRo and JDG. If we are going to have any success at all this year it will be because of them. No sense running them into the ground for May games in Salt Lake.

This is just an awful point of view!! how many points did we miss the playoffs by last year? You think any of last years May games could have made a difference?

Shakes McQueen
05-03-2010, 05:52 PM
This is just an awful point of view!! how many points did we miss the playoffs by last year? You think any of last years May games could have made a difference?

You could make this argument by pointing to literally any game where we got less than three points.

- Scott

Davenport
05-03-2010, 06:17 PM
Nevermind at Salt Lake, when has TFC ever gone into any road game with a reasonable expectation of victory?

Im glad Preki sat DeRo and JDG. If we are going to have any success at all this year it will be because of them. No sense running them into the ground for May games in Salt Lake.

Maybe he should rest them for the rest of the season.
Then they'll be nice and rested for next season.

jloome
05-03-2010, 06:17 PM
You could make this argument by pointing to literally any game where we got less than three points.

- Scott

....except that the point had been qualified by the earlier post arguing this one was winnable due to the other team's record. You can't sat that about literally any game in which we got less than three points.

Kilgore Trout
05-03-2010, 06:38 PM
I am seeing this more and more on this board and it's beginning to bug me.

This debate tactic is called "appealling to authority" and it is a logical fallacy. Saying "people who know this game would call you such and such" is not evidence nor proper discussion, it's just cop-out.
By no means is appeal to authority a concrete logical fallacy. The usage here by Davenport especially is fallacious (since SweetOwnGoal is more just firing back an insult than anything, Davenport actually thinks he's saying something of substance :D), but argument from authority is important to informal logic and thus pretty much any lengthy argument. It's not fallacious to assert that an assertion made by an authority is true, and use that in your argument. It is fallacious to assert that an assertion made by an authority is true because this authority is infallible.

'No military strategist buys into the distinction made by many between civilians killed in collateral damage and victims of terrorist attacks... *goes on to formulate argument*": perfectly sound use of appeal to authority to strengthen your own argument

'No military strategist buys into this distinction, therefore this distinction is invalid': fallacious.

'People who know the game would say that MLS is conference-level, therefore MLS is conference level': fallacious.

It also depends on the authority appealed to and the severity of the phrasing.

'Most physicists embrace the theory of relativity, therefore we have good grounds on which to buy into this theory': valid use of appeal to authority

'Britney Spears advocates immigration reform, therefore immigration reform should be a priority': invalid use of appeal to authority

As Davenport's 'people I know' source is dubious at best, his argument is weakened even further.

Shakes McQueen
05-03-2010, 06:40 PM
....except that the point had been qualified by the earlier post arguing this one was winnable due to the other team's record. You can't sat that about literally any game in which we got less than three points.

"Winnable" is a meaningless phrase in a league that ostensibly pushes parity. By that metric, the Seattle game wasn't winnable, so we should have sat them then.

And pointing to their record as a metric for winnability, after a measly five games, is equally ridiculous.

And furthermore, if you're going to push the idea of this game being a winnable one due to their record, then you could make an equal (if not more) compelling case that Preki did the right thing - he rested our two best players, because we were playing a beatable opponent. He assumed that our defense could hold them scoreless in the first half, because they were supposedly a weaker opponent.

Of course, the reality is that they were the defending Cup champions, playing at home against a team playing their third game in seven days. Those are the facts we knew for sure. Navel gazing about how "beatable" they are based on a sample size of five games, is fruitless.

- Scott

uncle p
05-03-2010, 06:54 PM
You could make this argument by pointing to literally any game where we got less than three points.

- Scott

I agree w/you Shakes, but my point was May games are just as important as August games. I would prefer TFC had a comfortable spot near the top of the table and then rested players down the stretch leading into the playoff's, instead of resting players now, losing points cause of it, and working like dogs just to get in.

These are pro athletes, if they already need rest maybe we need Winsper back:D

ensco
05-03-2010, 07:38 PM
Kilgore Trout tells no lies.

rocker
05-03-2010, 07:46 PM
Maybe he should rest them for the rest of the season.
Then they'll be nice and rested for next season.

one could also say let's play De Ro and De Guz every game, home and away, for 90 minutes, since they have the whole offseason to rest. ;)

rest has to be given out here and there when possible or else you overtrain. This is pretty well known in sports training that players who play too much, too often, break down.

Davenport
05-03-2010, 07:53 PM
one could also say let's play De Ro and De Guz every game, home and away, for 90 minutes, since they have the whole offseason to rest. ;)

rest has to be given out here and there when possible or else you overtrain. This is pretty well known in sports training that players who play too much, too often, break down.

Of course they should play every minute of every game.
They should want to, demand to and it shouldn't be up to the coach.
Once you reach a certain level of fitness (I don't think TFC are anywhere near that), you do less of the gruelling pre-season stuff and work more with the ball. That and the games keep you fit.
That's why 2 games a week is no problem.
Playing games or training ? I know what I prefer.....

Blixa
05-03-2010, 08:27 PM
Maybe he should rest them for the rest of the season.
Then they'll be nice and rested for next season.

They'll be nice and rested for the playoffs.

kdzb
05-03-2010, 08:33 PM
Overall, I kind of disagree with Preki's assessment that rotating the squad as he did was a failure. As others have mentioned, perhaps the tactics employed didn't quite work, but that shouldn't mean that we leap to the conclusion of the rotation itself being wrong.

The reason, of course, is that it's an absolute necessity. We can't have De Ro, JDG et al. playing 90 minutes every game. They'll be burnt out by August; this month especially, with all those games, it's vital that guys come in and out of the team.

Remember also that this is the first time Preki tried something like this, and those guys who came on still aren't fully familiar with each other yet. I would say that this process of rotation needs to continue, not only to build confidence in some of the bench players, but also to make sure our stars don't burn out.

It would be quite a shame if after one game of this Preki loses confidence in this strategy and starts running some guys into the ground. That will just lead to fatigue and fatigue leads to injuries and nothing good will come of it.

I agree with the idea of resting our superstars but Preki shouldn't take more than 2 starters out of the first eleven at once. That's a big hole into the starting linupe if you ask me.
vs RSL the hard work from Barrett was there but the offence was abscent and the midfield was dead without JDG.

rocker
05-03-2010, 08:43 PM
Of course they should play every minute of every game.
They should want to, demand to and it shouldn't be up to the coach.
Once you reach a certain level of fitness (I don't think TFC are anywhere near that), you do less of the gruelling pre-season stuff and work more with the ball. That and the games keep you fit.
That's why 2 games a week is no problem.
Playing games or training ? I know what I prefer.....

No pro team in sports plays every player for every game.. even Man U rests guys when they have 2 games in 1 week... for the reason I explained above.

If you've never heard of overtraining then you'll never agree on that point.

scooterTFC
05-03-2010, 09:07 PM
The concept of squad rotation is good. Our complete lack of depth at the attacking positions is bad. Our 3rd striker, Nane, is a 4th round draft pick who played as winger/FB in college. Dero appears to be our only attack minded midfielder (maybe Peterson will show more spark with more minutes). Its kinda scary.

ag futbol
05-03-2010, 09:26 PM
I have voiced this for a while, we need to bring coaching from outside the leageue, but coaches that know how to teach the side.
Agreed, the insular hiring pattern of MLS (prior to this season) just served to recycle bad coaches. Sure guys like Arena and Soehn are going to pop up again and again, but there was really never any reason for someone like Kurt Onalfo to get another kick at things.

The idea that an outside coach can't wrap his head around MLS rules or come here and succeed was always poorly founded. It's more like: you don't hire someone who expects an unlimited budget and has no idea of what he's walking into like ruud Gullit. Yeah, some MLS teams were THAT bad at doing diligence. It never occurred to AEG they should probably test Ruud's awareness of the fact he's not going to have 10M in transfer funds and the rules here can be a real bitch (not unlike many other economically limited leagues).

Smart managers can come here and adapt, and given the stale approach the guys who keep popping out of the recycle bin, it's time for some more fresh blood.

Roogsy
05-03-2010, 10:06 PM
Agreed, the insular hiring pattern of MLS (prior to this season) just served to recycle bad coaches. Sure guys like Arena and Soehn are going to pop up again and again, but there was really never any reason for someone like Kurt Onalfo to get another kick at things.

The idea that an outside coach can't wrap his head around MLS rules or come here and succeed was always poorly founded. It's more like: you don't hire someone who expects an unlimited budget and has no idea of what he's walking into like ruud Gullit. Yeah, some MLS teams were THAT bad at doing diligence. It never occurred to AEG they should probably test Ruud's awareness of the fact he's not going to have 10M in transfer funds and the rules here can be a real bitch (not unlike many other economically limited leagues).

Smart managers can come here and adapt, and given the stale approach the guys who keep popping out of the recycle bin, it's time for some more fresh blood.

QFT...

James17930
05-03-2010, 10:16 PM
I agree with the idea of resting our superstars but Preki shouldn't take more than 2 starters out of the first eleven at once. That's a big hole into the starting linupe if you ask me.
vs RSL the hard work from Barrett was there but the offence was abscent and the midfield was dead without JDG.

This is a good point, and points to what I was trying to say with the original post -- that rotation is good, but maybe the way he did it was wrong.

I think now the best thing to do would have been to put Saric at DM, then play either De Ro or JDG at AM for the first half, then switch them for the second half. In that way, both would only play 45 minutes and each would get the rest he needs without the team suffering without the both of them.

-- Also -- anyone who says the game at RSL was winnable is having a laugh. I keep saying this, but I'll say it again -- A GAME AT ALTITUDE WITH 3 DAYS REST IS NEVER 'AUTOMATICALLY WINNABLE'. Preki was playing for a draw, which was the absolute right decision [can anyone have said 4 of 6 (league) points in one week would have been a failure?]

And I just want to reiterate my main point as well:

We, and Preki, and the starters, cannot afford to lose confidence in our bench players. Regardless of how good or bad people think they are, we need them -- you could even say the success of the entire season depends upon them, because De Ro and JDG simply cannot carry they team on their own all year -- they'll burn out.

I just really hope Preki realizes that making 6 changes was the mistake, not necessarily the individual play of each of those guys, and we still see guys coming in and out of the lineup, because without that, it's only a matter of time before De Ro does his back or hamstring again.

Cashcleaner
05-04-2010, 05:51 AM
Agreed, the insular hiring pattern of MLS (prior to this season) just served to recycle bad coaches. Sure guys like Arena and Soehn are going to pop up again and again, but there was really never any reason for someone like Kurt Onalfo to get another kick at things.

The idea that an outside coach can't wrap his head around MLS rules or come here and succeed was always poorly founded. It's more like: you don't hire someone who expects an unlimited budget and has no idea of what he's walking into like ruud Gullit. Yeah, some MLS teams were THAT bad at doing diligence. It never occurred to AEG they should probably test Ruud's awareness of the fact he's not going to have 10M in transfer funds and the rules here can be a real bitch (not unlike many other economically limited leagues).

Smart managers can come here and adapt, and given the stale approach the guys who keep popping out of the recycle bin, it's time for some more fresh blood.

Fuck! Exactly! I could never wrap my head around people's insistence that any new coach and/or manager for Toronto would have to come from a current MLS club. Sure, MLS has some peculiar roster restrictions and transaction rules, but it's not brain surgery to figure out the fundamentals of what you can or cannot do - and if you weren't completely up-to-speed on some of those points, THAT'S WHAT ASSISTANT COACHES AND CONSULTANTS ARE FOR!

Oldtimer
05-04-2010, 07:38 AM
Frankly, I'd dump both Mo and Preki to get Domminic Kinnear from Houston. Just saying...

Davenport
05-04-2010, 07:39 AM
No pro team in sports plays every player for every game.. even Man U rests guys when they have 2 games in 1 week... for the reason I explained above.

If you've never heard of overtraining then you'll never agree on that point.
Of course they do. Clubs like ManU aren't your everyday example and of course they can afford to rest players because they have a squad of 24 quality players who are all of similar ability.
Clubs with limited playing resources, like TFC, are miles away from that luxury and have to play their strongest team all the time.
To rest the 2 players who are miles ahead of anyone else was suicide.
Of course I've heard of over-training. That's why I stated when you get to a good level of fitness you can tone down the pre-season style stuff and concentrate on playing/ballwork/tactics.
If they didn't have that second game in a week do you think they'd be sitting on their arses for the other 6 days ?
No, they'll be working hard.

koryo
05-04-2010, 07:39 AM
Frankly, I'd dump both Mo and Preki to get Domminic Kinnear from Houston. Just saying...

Fair enough, I think all of us would. But the chances of that are?

Pachuco
05-04-2010, 08:22 AM
This is a good point, and points to what I was trying to say with the original post -- that rotation is good, but maybe the way he did it was wrong.

I think now the best thing to do would have been to put Saric at DM, then play either De Ro or JDG at AM for the first half, then switch them for the second half. In that way, both would only play 45 minutes and each would get the rest he needs without the team suffering without the both of them.

-- Also -- anyone who says the game at RSL was winnable is having a laugh. I keep saying this, but I'll say it again -- A GAME AT ALTITUDE WITH 3 DAYS REST IS NEVER 'AUTOMATICALLY WINNABLE'. Preki was playing for a draw, which was the absolute right decision [can anyone have said 4 of 6 (league) points in one week would have been a failure?]

And I just want to reiterate my main point as well:

We, and Preki, and the starters, cannot afford to lose confidence in our bench players. Regardless of how good or bad people think they are, we need them -- you could even say the success of the entire season depends upon them, because De Ro and JDG simply cannot carry they team on their own all year -- they'll burn out.

I just really hope Preki realizes that making 6 changes was the mistake, not necessarily the individual play of each of those guys, and we still see guys coming in and out of the lineup, because without that, it's only a matter of time before De Ro does his back or hamstring again.

So James, you start this thread with this title
The Squad Rotation Experiment Wasn't a 'Failure'

By the sounds of this post though sounds like you DO think the rotation was a failure. I don't think you'd be suggesting better ways to rotate the players if that was the case.

Anyhow, I think the thread title is way over exagerated. It was a failure, no doubt about it. Did Preki learn from it? we'll see.

Beach_Red
05-04-2010, 08:31 AM
Frankly, I'd dump both Mo and Preki to get Domminic Kinnear from Houston. Just saying...


Just curious, how long a contract would you offer? And at how much more than he's making now? Would he get to clear out the front office and bring in his own people or would he have to keep Dichio and Brennan and so on?

I like the idea of a whole new front office as well but I wonder if this ownership is really going to spend what it would actually take. Well, now that the team has been profitable for many years, maybe they will, they did finally sign a DP. I wonder if they'd let Kinnear sign another one, they certainly have the money.

James17930
05-04-2010, 10:05 AM
So James, you start this thread with this title
The Squad Rotation Experiment Wasn't a 'Failure'

By the sounds of this post though sounds like you DO think the rotation was a failure. I don't think you'd be suggesting better ways to rotate the players if that was the case.

Anyhow, I think the thread title is way over exagerated. It was a failure, no doubt about it. Did Preki learn from it? we'll see.

Yes, it seems like I was being unclear. What I meant was -- and what I said in the original post -- was that rotating the squad wasn't wrong, just maybe the exact way it was done was (i.e. tactically -- just sitting back the whole time). We have to be able to rotate throughout the season or we're not going to get anywhere, and I only hope this doesn't cause Preki to lose confidence in some of those guys (unless, like Garcia, they've already proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they're total shit).

scooterTFC
05-05-2010, 08:13 AM
THis thread got pissier than I normally like these days but watching everyone argue at cross purposes is somewhat frustrating.

Can I suggest a few realistic compromise positions here that reflect both sides, since it occurs to me that both have reasonable stances?

To whit:

1) You can't compare North American football with European football because the athletes themselves differ greatly.

Euro footie experts will tell you American soccer is about athleticism and battle, while European players grow up learning a different tactical -- and more team-based -- approach. The kids here play multiple sports growing up and then excel as soccer players. The kids there start as soccer players and end as soccer players.

So, you can't compare leagues directly.

MLS off-the-ball-movement and tactical play probably isn't much better than conference-to-league one, depending on the team. But our players' technique, inidividual skill level and athleticism ranges all the way from the Premiership to League One, usually well above what you would find below the top tier of league one/average Coca Cola Championship side.

Ergo, it is it's own game. YOu can't compare it. USL is MLS without the technique, that's all. Some in that league read the game well, others poorly. Given that scouts look at repetitive behaviours as a heavy indicator of future success, I'd suggest fewer at that level read the game as well as in MLS, either.



2) You can play defensively in almost any formation. So you don't need to be in a 4-5-1, but yes, it's easy to defend with an extra midfielder who lays back all the time by a flat-back four. Did we need to do it to play defensively against RSL? No, and it didn't work anyway, so it's moot. The coach himslef has admitted it was a gamble that didn't work, so to all those defending the choice, please, get your heads out: we lost.

He admitted it didn't work. And a coach's responsibility extends to putting players on the pitch who know how to make it work, so even if the tactic was good, and the players bad, it's still his responsibility. Good on him for manning up to it immediately, which shows more strength of character than most bosses in this league have shown.

3) Players don't need to be at optimum to perform well, but they are more likely to do so. You don't play Wednesday, fly Friday and play again Saturday -- AT EXTREME ALTITUDE - - without fatigue affecting things. It made sense, then, to have some offense on the bench so that if we held them close in the first, that person would b coming in fresh and with a slight (Davenport: read slight) advantage as a result.

Having said that, generally foreign teams only rotate when they have players of equivalent calibre. THat's why it's rotational policy -- because it rotates constantly. Teams have 25-30 man squads because of injury, mostly. One player plus one backup = 22 players. Throw in 3-to-8 more who are under contract but not making the team or youths, and you have a 30-man squad.

But we don't have the talent to rotate as a policy. Unfortunately, Preki's still so new and his players are so new, that figuring out which ones gel together as a first team is gonna mean some different looking sides early.

So we got a combo of rotational/rest/assessment this week and it went badly. But from his perspective, RSL lost has lost at home ONCE in 18 months, so it made sense to gamble there.


I'm 2 days late to the game on this whole debate about, "A what level of league in England/Europe could decent MLs side compete". I like your perspective on this. Truth is all anybody can offer on this topic is opinions.

Wouldn't it be awesome if this debate could be settled by having a single MLS team play friendlies against a mid-table team from every level of league in England in a single year? Start at the non-league level and work all the way up the Premiership? I think this could even be a realithy show on Spike.

trane
05-05-2010, 08:17 AM
^ What anyone on this topic is INFORMED and REASONED opinion. Well informed and reasoned opinion more often then not is correct. There is plenty of evidence to back Jloome's opinion.

felipe
05-05-2010, 08:22 AM
I disagree with the technique - yes we got bigger faster stronger athletes, but most of the technique and individual skill on display is awful - below league 1 standards for the most part. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are generally not the US or Cdn players.

trane
05-05-2010, 08:25 AM
^ I tend to agree, the only issue I am not sure how much of that is about team play. Meaning the passess are not completeled due to poor positioning communication as opposed to poor technique, but I have no reason to believe you are wrong.

scooterTFC
05-05-2010, 08:32 AM
^ What anyone on this topic is INFORMED and REASONED opinion. Well informed and reasoned opinion more often then not is correct. There is plenty of evidence to back Jloome's opinion.
huh? not sure I get your point. In my post I said that, "I like your perspective" signally that I generally agreed.

I guess my point was that this debate is so intriguing and the the opinions on the topic are so divergent, that actually playing games with an MLS side against each level of the english pro ladder would really be a captivating/interesting sporting experience to watch.

In boxing they say, "Stylel match-ups, make fights". jloome nicely articulated the style differences between North American and European soccer. How woudl those style difference play out on the field?

fetajr
05-05-2010, 02:10 PM
failure or not, Preki going into away games trying not to lose (4-5-1) will always give us shit results. The home team comes out attacking...fuck'em, attack them aggressively right back.

Preki for fuck sakes, Attack just like at BMO!