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Pookie
04-28-2010, 10:25 AM
You know how folks can argue around an issue without getting to the heart of it?

There are clear connections between the organizational structure and our failure as a club to achieve anything of significance. It isn't simply that Mo isn't a good GM. While there are plenty of issues, the one that smacks me right on the ass is that the current reporting structure breeds nothing but failure.

Walk with me for a minute and let's look at the Leafs and TFC.

When Stavro took control of the team, he pretty much applied a hands off approach. He let the GM run the show and (it was rumoured) rarely, if ever got involved in player decisions. The one major asterisk to that one is that he was rumoured to have squashed the deal that Cliff Fletcher had worked out that would have brought Gretzky to Toronto.

The Leafs enjoyed some long playoff runs throughout the 90's and qualified for the post season in every year.

That all ended in 2003 and there was a restructuring. As part of that, both the Leafs and Raptors now had to report into Richard Peddie. His artistry is all over the history books. From forcing player signings (eg. Tie Domi) to hiring inexperienced managers that he could control (eg, John Ferguson Junior and Rob Babcock).

Note to self, sounds a lot like JDG and Mo Johnston doesn't it?

Under their inexperienced leader, the Raptors went through 3 straight years of missing the playoffs and 3 head coaches (Wilkens, O'Neill and Mitchell).

Under their inexperienced leader, the Leafs went through 3 head coaches (Quinn, Maurice and Wilson) and 4 straight years of missing the playoffs.

Note to self, sounds a lot like 4 head coaches and 3 straight years of missing the playoffs doesn't it?

The Raptors brought in Colangelo and removed the reporting to Peddie. Though he hasn't been an immediate hit, he has steered the team into 2 years of playoff basketball in 4 years.

The Leafs recently did the same in bringing in Burke and removing the Peddie influence. We'll see how it works out in the years ahead.

It's clearly time for TFC to do the same as the trail of failure leads right to the President's office. While "Mo might need to go", unless there is a change in the reporting structure, I am extremely doubtful that our results may be any different.

Arguing about what Mo said or didn't say is exactly the kind of talk that keeps us from asking questions about this reporting structure that has proven to be a failure in all 3 sports franchises.

Why should our season ticket prices keep going up while our club is run with training wheels and the guys who put them on don't know how to use a wrench?

trane
04-28-2010, 10:27 AM
Agreed.

TFCRegina
04-28-2010, 10:31 AM
I tend to agree that there's a corporate structure problem.

But today, and until the end of the Voyageurs' Cup...it's about beating those assclowns from Montreal and Vancouver.

Pookie
04-28-2010, 10:36 AM
^ it always is about the games... IMO, you don't get down on the players/coach or team because of the management structure. Sing your ass off for them. Wanting a change in structure has nothing to do with that.

We could make the playoffs this year and I'd still want a change in structure because it is more likely to breed success.

Darlofletch
04-28-2010, 10:37 AM
Hmmm, I wonder if beach_red will agree?

profit89
04-28-2010, 10:38 AM
I always liked John Carver. I like the passion and candidness he brought to the league. Sure it's not all roses, but certain things he brought were awesome.

Beach_Red
04-28-2010, 10:39 AM
Yes, there' a corporate structure problem. And then, even with TFC the problem is they hired one inexperienced guy. Look, Vancouver has Lenarduzzi, the guy they got from Tottenham and Soehn from DC. And that's even before they've joined MLS.

This really seems to be a budget issue. Obviously Vancouver (and probably every other MLS team) is spending more on executives to run their teams than TFC is.

You get what you pay for.

Brooker
04-28-2010, 10:40 AM
we need a new section for these threads. they outnumber on the field related ones.

Beach_Red
04-28-2010, 10:40 AM
Hmmm, I wonder if beach_red will agree?


:D:D:D

We were typing at the same time.

:D:D:D

sulfur
04-28-2010, 10:50 AM
we need a new section for these threads. they outnumber on the field related ones.
We have threads about stuff happening on the field? Where? :D

Roogsy
04-28-2010, 10:53 AM
What exactly are you looking for? How nice the grass pitch is or player reviews? We have both. Would you like to discuss whether De Guzman jumped out of the way? We have a thread for that. Obie's first goal of the year? It was in the post-game thread.

I am not sure where these complaints get their validity from. If you want to talk about "on field" is it really that hard to find a thread? Or to create one?

Stop being whiny babies guys. Come on.

J .
04-28-2010, 10:55 AM
Forget Mo,
Dick Peddie has to go!

TFCRegina
04-28-2010, 10:57 AM
Let's focus on the game guys.

All this thread has done is started another bitchfest about more off field issues.

Can't we put our MLSE/MoJo hate on aside for one day...we have Montreal shite to deal with and they're way worse than Mo and MLSE could ever be.

koryo
04-28-2010, 11:02 AM
Pookie makes a very good point. One that should serve as a frame-of-reference if and when we actually do decide to call out the management structure. Let's face it, focusing on Mo (and this is where Beach Red will jump to say "I told you so") can't be an end in itself.

A broader view of the organization's ills cannot do us any harm.

Toronto_Bhoy
04-28-2010, 11:09 AM
Yes, there' a corporate structure problem. And then, even with TFC the problem is they hired one inexperienced guy. Look, Vancouver has Lenarduzzi, the guy they got from Tottenham and Soehn from DC. And that's even before they've joined MLS.

This really seems to be a budget issue. Obviously Vancouver (and probably every other MLS team) is spending more on executives to run their teams than TFC is.

You get what you pay for.

Good post B_R.

I fear Vancouver are already way ahead of us in "football management department". I've known Bob Lenarduzzi for a long time (used to play against his younger brother Danny) and nobody understands the North American game like him.

I know people here don’t like him but he gets it.

We got a bevying patter merchant.

Whoop
04-28-2010, 11:11 AM
We can't criticize MLSE.

They are our lords.

They gave us the Leafs, the Raptors and of course TFC.

We must all bow down before them.

*****
While I agree with Pookie, good luck in changing their corporate structure.

Their corporate structure won't change because it's successful for one reason. $$$$

Now if you are a shareholder, you might have more sway.

Until those entities (Leafs, Raptors, TFC) start hemorrhaging money, changing the corporate structure of MLSE will be futile.

As for management of the teams... that might be an easier target.

P.S. Criticizing MLSE does not equal criticizing the Leafs. LOL

Beach_Red
04-28-2010, 11:20 AM
While I agree with Pookie, good luck in changing their corporate structure.




But as Pookie points out, their corporate structure has changed with the Leafs and Raptors, they did bring in experienced guys and by all accounts are letting them run the teams.

It can change for TFC, too. The team may not be making as much money as the Leafs and Raptors but it is making money - thy could start spending a litte more.

And Montreal will not score a goal against us in this tournament.

jloome
04-28-2010, 11:21 AM
Let's focus on the game guys.

All this thread has done is started another bitchfest about more off field issues.

Can't we put our MLSE/MoJo hate on aside for one day...we have Montreal shite to deal with and they're way worse than Mo and MLSE could ever be.

It's not a hippy commune, you're not obliged to take part in this thread. There, problem solved.

Pookie
04-28-2010, 11:22 AM
Until those entities (Leafs, Raptors, TFC) start hemorrhaging money, changing the corporate structure of MLSE will be futile.

As for management of the teams... that might be an easier target.

P.S. Criticizing MLSE does not equal criticizing the Leafs. LOL

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about changing the ownership structure. Unless we can find backers like the Man United Supporters have done to propose buying out the current interest, that won't happen.

I'm talking about changing the organizational structure and it has been done by both the Leafs and Raptors after losing seasons and public/media pressure mounted on them.

What the Leafs and Raptors have is a President of the team that reports directly into the Board. There is no oversight from Peddie. When there was, he hired inexperienced managers and the teams' records suffered.

TFC currently has the reporting structure of the failed Leafs and Raptors teams of the early 2000's.

It has been changed for the other 2 teams and it can be changed for us.

Whoop
04-28-2010, 11:24 AM
So essentially get rid of Anselmi and bring in a guy to replace Mo who will report directly to the board?

Whoop
04-28-2010, 11:25 AM
Will the board respond to a "foreigner" i.e. someone from overseas?

Pookie
04-28-2010, 11:30 AM
^ I don't know but you have an American running the most popular hockey team in Canada.

Beach_Red
04-28-2010, 11:32 AM
Here, read this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/james-on-soccer/tfc-must-be-smart-with-calls-for-mos-removal/article1549452/

"The more important decision for Tom Anselmi and Paul Beirne to make is who do they bring in? Not necessarily to replace Johnston, but initially anyway, for Johnston to report to. A headhunting firm should be hired to find a top soccer executive similar to Vancouver’s recruitment of Paul Barber from Tottenham Hotspur. Then let that person run the technical soccer side of things. If he/she deems anyone surplus to requirements then they will make the decision."

It sounds so easy when he says it....

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 11:32 AM
Will the board respond to a "foreigner" i.e. someone from overseas?

If he has a pedigree that commands respect, I'm sure they will. If it's a stooge, or another inexperienced candidate, then expect more direct oversight from Anselmi.

- Scott

Whoop
04-28-2010, 11:39 AM
^ I don't know but you have an American running the most popular hockey team in Canada.

That's why I clarified by saying overseas. LOL

Brian Burke may be American but I'm sure 95% of the board knew who was beforehand or had heard of him.

Odds are the board wouldn't know a football person even if they slapped them upside the head.

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 11:39 AM
Here, read this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/soccer/james-on-soccer/tfc-must-be-smart-with-calls-for-mos-removal/article1549452/

"The more important decision for Tom Anselmi and Paul Beirne to make is who do they bring in? Not necessarily to replace Johnston, but initially anyway, for Johnston to report to. A headhunting firm should be hired to find a top soccer executive similar to Vancouver’s recruitment of Paul Barber from Tottenham Hotspur. Then let that person run the technical soccer side of things. If he/she deems anyone surplus to requirements then they will make the decision."

It sounds so easy when he says it....

This is what I want MLSE to do - same as they did for the Leafs and Raps. Hire someone experienced, pay them what it takes, and give them absolute control - accountable only to the BoD.

I'm willing to give them a mulligan on the team's first GM - there were a lot of question marks around this teams financial feasability as they entered the league, and I don't blame them for being cautious investors.

However, that time has since passed. I'm encouraged that they've since shown a commitment to installing a serious pitch, and upgrading the stadium. Now it's time to show that same level of commitment to the management of the team. No more Peddie-capades v2.0.

Hire a guy to be President and GM, and then set him loose to do his work.

- Scott

Whoop
04-28-2010, 11:40 AM
If he has a pedigree that commands respect, I'm sure they will. If it's a stooge, or another inexperienced candidate, then expect more direct oversight from Anselmi.

- Scott

Agreed.

That's my biggest concern in all this.

Fine get rid of Mo.

Do they know enough to hire the next person?

ginkster88
04-28-2010, 11:42 AM
...when we actually do decide to call out the management structure.

Call out the management structure? Who exactly is going to listen???

I say let Colangelo have a few years and see if success comes, and the same for Burke. If so, then the problems aren't with MLSE anymore now that they've (apparently) stepped back from their NBA and NHL properties. If MLSE have truly changed their ownership style and are now lasseiz faire when it comes to team management then the TFC problem is Mo. It's as simple as that.

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 11:43 AM
Odds are the board wouldn't know a football person even if they slapped them upside the head.

As with any owner, I'm sure they have contacts with many soccer-aware people that can point them in the right direction.

And I'm sure Anselmi himself has become more soccer-aware in his time with TFC. The real step he needs to take is what Peddie ultimately did - to hire a guy with actual authority, then recuse himself from any management role in the team.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 11:45 AM
Do they know enough to hire the next person?

Ultimately, all you can really say is "we will see". I'm sure once Mo is gone the rumour mill will start grinding daily, and we will have a pretty good idea of the various candidates MLSE are looking at. We can judge them then.

- Scott

Darlofletch
04-28-2010, 11:46 AM
My biggest concern is that they'll think preki is doing a good job at bringing in new players and such like, that they'll let him take over Mo's job, and move Mo Up a notch to be the technical director/president/grand overlord of the organisation.

ginkster88
04-28-2010, 11:53 AM
My biggest concern is that they'll think preki is doing a good job at bringing in new players and such like, that they'll let him take over Mo's job, and move Mo Up a notch to be the technical director/president/grand overlord of the organisation.

They already did that. They're not stupid. If we don't make the playoffs, he's done.

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 11:53 AM
My biggest concern is that they'll think preki is doing a good job at bringing in new players and such like, that they'll let him take over Mo's job, and move Mo Up a notch to be the technical director/president/grand overlord of the organisation.

I doubt that. I don't see any way Mo survives this season with a job at TFC intact, short of putting together a fantastic season (highly unlikely right now).

We know the FO keep tabs on what the fans are thinking, so they know that the fanbase is solidly against keeping him on. These former personnel interviews are also embarrassing the organization, I'm sure. And what's worse, the media as a whole are starting to get on the story of what a flop Mo has been.

I don't see how he survives that torrent of negativity directed squarely at him. I expect MLSE to cut him loose, almost as a sacrificial offering to the supporters, haha.

- Scott

Beach_Red
04-28-2010, 12:04 PM
As with any owner, I'm sure they have contacts with many soccer-aware people that can point them in the right direction.




They'll hire a search firm. They hired someone to find them a GM for their hockey team.

But then they'll have to let that person run the team. That means he may even keep Mo and Preki or he might fire everyone, including Brennan and Dichio. Everything has to be on the table.

And oh yeah, they'll have to pay him a lot.

DichioTFC
04-28-2010, 12:13 PM
i agree changes need to be made, but Colangelo was a successful NBA executive. Burke was a successful NHL executive. Successful MLS executives are far and few between. There just isn't anyone in the FO who has the MLS experience next to Mo. Since Mo is the only accurate gauge of the MLS in the FO, he ended up being the voice of reason.

This is clearly MLSE's fault for hiring the wrong guy but also not making themselves knowledgeable about the product. They need to know soccer intricacies just as well as they know hockey intricacies.

The next person we hire must have MLS experience, the details surrounding signings and the salary cap are just too far removed for Euro executives.

J .
04-28-2010, 12:39 PM
Fire Peddie!!!!

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 02:17 PM
Fire Peddie!!!!

Peddie has nothing to do with TFC. Anselmi is to TFC, what Peddie used to be for the Leafs.

- Scott

ginkster88
04-28-2010, 02:21 PM
Sir Alex was talking about retirement. Do we think this is a ploy a la Burke in LA?!?! What coup have MLSE pulled off this time???!

Shakes McQueen
04-28-2010, 02:22 PM
They'll hire a search firm. They hired someone to find them a GM for their hockey team.

But then they'll have to let that person run the team. That means he may even keep Mo and Preki or he might fire everyone, including Brennan and Dichio. Everything has to be on the table.

And oh yeah, they'll have to pay him a lot.

I agree with all of this. He needs to be given the flexibility to hire and fire whoever he likes, and bring in his own people if he so desires. I was vocal in my disapproval after Cummins left, when Mo announced the new coach would not be given permission to choose his own assistant coaches.

And I certainly expect them to pay what it takes to bring in the right person, within reason.

- Scott

PASQUALE
04-28-2010, 10:45 PM
You know how folks can argue around an issue without getting to the heart of it?

There are clear connections between the organizational structure and our failure as a club to achieve anything of significance. It isn't simply that Mo isn't a good GM. While there are plenty of issues, the one that smacks me right on the ass is that the current reporting structure breeds nothing but failure.

Walk with me for a minute and let's look at the Leafs and TFC.

When Stavro took control of the team, he pretty much applied a hands off approach. He let the GM run the show and (it was rumoured) rarely, if ever got involved in player decisions. The one major asterisk to that one is that he was rumoured to have squashed the deal that Cliff Fletcher had worked out that would have brought Gretzky to Toronto.

The Leafs enjoyed some long playoff runs throughout the 90's and qualified for the post season in every year.

That all ended in 2003 and there was a restructuring. As part of that, both the Leafs and Raptors now had to report into Richard Peddie. His artistry is all over the history books. From forcing player signings (eg. Tie Domi) to hiring inexperienced managers that he could control (eg, John Ferguson Junior and Rob Babcock).

Note to self, sounds a lot like JDG and Mo Johnston doesn't it?

Under their inexperienced leader, the Raptors went through 3 straight years of missing the playoffs and 3 head coaches (Wilkens, O'Neill and Mitchell).

Under their inexperienced leader, the Leafs went through 3 head coaches (Quinn, Maurice and Wilson) and 4 straight years of missing the playoffs.

Note to self, sounds a lot like 4 head coaches and 3 straight years of missing the playoffs doesn't it?

The Raptors brought in Colangelo and removed the reporting to Peddie. Though he hasn't been an immediate hit, he has steered the team into 2 years of playoff basketball in 4 years.

The Leafs recently did the same in bringing in Burke and removing the Peddie influence. We'll see how it works out in the years ahead.

It's clearly time for TFC to do the same as the trail of failure leads right to the President's office. While "Mo might need to go", unless there is a change in the reporting structure, I am extremely doubtful that our results may be any different.

Arguing about what Mo said or didn't say is exactly the kind of talk that keeps us from asking questions about this reporting structure that has proven to be a failure in all 3 sports franchises.

Why should our season ticket prices keep going up while our club is run with training wheels and the guys who put them on don't know how to use a wrench?M.L.S.E. DOESN'T GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT THEIR FANS AND IF YOU THINK DIFFERENT WAKE UP!