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View Full Version : Were we better as an expansion team in 2007?



GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 06:51 AM
My picks of the 2007 team (players who played 5 or more games)

-----------------------Sutton-------------------------
--Wynne-------Marshall--------Brennan------Dunivant--
--O'Brien--------Robbo-----------Edu---------Pozniak--
----------------Dichio----------Cunningham------------


2010, Starters vs Colorado on Sunday

-----------------------Frei------------------------------
--Usanov-------Attakora--------Cann----------Harden---
-LaBrocca-------Saric-----------JDG-----------Cronin----
-----------------Dero----------Barrett-------------------

My analysis:
Goal: Frei is an upgrade over Sutton, but Sutton was competent
Back 4: 2007 was better. Attakora is the only 2010 player I would play before the 2007 group.
Midfield: Again 2007. O'Brien was more creative than any current winger. Robbo was a better stopper than Saric and although by pedigree JDG should be better than Edu, based on performances in a TFC uniform I would choose Edu.
Forwards: Saw off. Dero is the best to play upfront for TFC (I will consider him a forward because he played there Sunday and Preki seems to favour him at least equally there as opposed to the wing), but the combo of Dichio and Cunningham had great potential, with Dichio flicking balls on and Cunningham's speed.

Conclusion; the 2007 team was better. That team was actually 5-7-3 at the halfway point of the season. Injuries in the second half to O'Brien, Dichio, Cunningham and Wynne hurt the team badly and exposed a lack of depth (i.e. Lombardo). 2010 has more depth, but I'd choose the 2007 starters.

Discuss.

ensco
04-20-2010, 07:00 AM
It's not even close. The 2007 team, when healthy, was far better. When they actually started putting that team on the field together, which was really when Dichio arrived when we were 0-4, that team went 5-3-3, before injuries decimated the team.

That team was largely assembled after the season started - Dichio, Cunningham, Dunivant, Wynne, Marshall - but valuable assets were exchanged for Cunningham, Dunivant and Marshall. Esky, Buddle, Mulrooney and Nagamura went out (plus we slipped in the first round draft order, there were first round picks coming and going in the Dunivant and Nagamura deals, and we picked 10th instead of second overall in 2008 as a result). We could do this because the core of the team was there.

I have no idea what assets we could use to improve the 2010 team now, other than draft picks and the DP slot.

Davenport
04-20-2010, 08:04 AM
No comparison...except Pozniak.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-20-2010, 08:49 AM
thats why we did so amazingly in 2007 right?
4 games into the season boys, 4 games in

trane
04-20-2010, 09:31 AM
I like that team, BUT are you sure we had Marshall and Dunivant in 2007? I thought they joined in 2008, we may have gotten them late in the year.

Bombonera
04-20-2010, 09:52 AM
It's not even close. The 2007 team, when healthy, was far better. When they actually played together, which was only for a few games, that team was something like 4-2, before injuries decimated the team.

That team was largely assembled after the season started - Dichio, Cunningham, Dunivant, Wynne, Marshall - but valuable assets were exchanged for Cunningham, Dunivant and Marshall. Esky, Buddle, Mulrooney and Nagamura went out (plus we slipped in the first round draft order, there were first round picks coming and going in the Dunivant and Nagamura deals, and we picked 10th instead of second overall in 2008 as a result). We could do this because the core of the team was there.

I have no idea what assets we could use to improve the 2010 team now, other than draft picks and the DP slot.
When DD and CUnningham were healthy we were moving th ball forward..creating opportunities and scoring goals. Moreoevr, let's also rememebr that during year one we were down to Dr. "OPAAAAAA" in goal... We were actually competing even though I think the quality of play in the MLS has generally improved since then (With at leasrt one notable exception...)

TO me there is no question that I would rather have the 2007 version out there, healthy, but with Frei in place of Sutton.

alex andrew
04-20-2010, 10:05 AM
the quality of play in the MLS has generally improved since

exactly, i cannot compare oldies but goldies to the present.

the problem as i see it, is that the competition gets better faster than the tfc.

Mikey
04-20-2010, 10:11 AM
WTF, NO POLL? :rolleyes:

alex andrew
04-20-2010, 10:13 AM
well, who's better ? baresi or garcia ?

i'll take garcia !

rocker
04-20-2010, 10:14 AM
When DD and CUnningham were healthy we were moving th ball forward..creating opportunities and scoring goals. .

correction: Cunningham never scored many goals here.... He scored at about a Chad Barrett rate.
Dichio created lots of opportunities for Cunningham but Cunningham sucked at putting them in.
Dichio never had lots of opportunities to score himself, but when he got opportunities, he usually made them count. Dichio's opportunities using were made by himself, often making something out of nothing.

J .
04-20-2010, 10:15 AM
2010 is better. Better Keeper, better midfield and DeRo

Oldtimer
04-20-2010, 10:20 AM
WTF, NO POLL? :rolleyes:

:lol:

Dub Narcotic
04-20-2010, 10:22 AM
That 2007 team, when healthy, was easily the best ever TFC lineup. Unfortunately, both Dichio and Cunningham got hurt and never really played together apart from a few games.

GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 10:42 AM
I like that team, BUT are you sure we had Marshall and Dunivant in 2007? I thought they joined in 2008, we may have gotten them late in the year.

Marshall and Dunivant both joined in June 2007, so before the halfway point in the season.

TFCRegina
04-20-2010, 11:02 AM
No, we weren't. End of story.

jloome
04-20-2010, 11:03 AM
correction: Cunningham never scored many goals here.... He scored at about a Chad Barrett rate.
Dichio created lots of opportunities for Cunningham but Cunningham sucked at putting them in.
Dichio never had lots of opportunities to score himself, but when he got opportunities, he usually made them count. Dichio's opportunities using were made by himself, often making something out of nothing.

Not really. You're thinking of season two. In Season one, cunny got hurt about five games in, and prior to that he and Danny were really clicking. It could have been a decent partnership, but who knows? Jeff Cunningham is Jeff Cunningham. One season his head's straight and he's not thinking about everything and he scores 16. The next season, he's perturbed and scores two.

Chevy
04-20-2010, 11:09 AM
That 2007 team, when healthy, was easily the best ever TFC lineup. Unfortunately, both Dichio and Cunningham got hurt and never really played together apart from a few games.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with this statement, the fact that someone even remotely suggests it is proof that we are in deep trouble.

ManUtd4ever
04-20-2010, 11:10 AM
I think the best run the team ever had was early in season 2 shortly after the acquisitions of Robert, Guevara, and Ricketts. The Reds started 0-2-0 and then went on a modest run to improve to 5-3-2 if I recall correctly before inuries to key players and international callups derailed the season...

Roogsy
04-20-2010, 11:11 AM
I wish this thread had a poll.

The fact that it's even a debateable issue is pretty sad in and of itself.

But funny enough, GB makes some great points. I might have to agree that I would take the older lineup over the new one despite JDG, DeRo and Nana.

rocker
04-20-2010, 11:15 AM
Not really. You're thinking of season two. In Season one, cunny got hurt about five games in, and prior to that he and Danny were really clicking. It could have been a decent partnership, but who knows? Jeff Cunningham is Jeff Cunningham. One season his head's straight and he's not thinking about everything and he scores 16. The next season, he's perturbed and scores two.

That's what I said ("Dichio created lots of opportunities for Cunningham").

They clicked. But it didn't lead to a lot of goals because Cunny couldn't finish.

Remember all the times Dichio headed/passed a ball to Cunny, who ran on goal and shot it right into the keeper?

My seats are in the north west end, and I remember, sadly, so many Dichio-fed breakaways in Season 1 that led to no goals.

Whoop
04-20-2010, 11:17 AM
I think the best run the team ever had was early in season 2 shortly after the acquisitions of Robert, Guevara, and Ricketts. The Reds started 0-2-0 and then went on a modest run to improve to 5-3-2 if I recall correctly before inuries to key players and international callups derailed the season...

That team had some potential.

Beach_Red
04-20-2010, 11:18 AM
Way back then I asked the question, what kind of an expansion team are we, and got slammed pretty hard. "Who gives a fuck," was the nicest comment, I think.

The reason I asked is because there have been a couple of different "expansion philosophies" in north American sports and by now we've seen enough to see which ones work better. Of course, soccer is different because you don't just build through the draft and MLS is weird because you can lose good, young players, but form the beginning TFC seemed to be following the wrong expansion plan.

The team may have asked the fans to be patient, but it never looked like they were taking the patient approach themselves.

rocker
04-20-2010, 11:22 AM
you don't just build through the draft and MLS is weird because you can lose good, young players, but form the beginning TFC seemed to be following the wrong expansion plan..

Oh definitely.. but you've got hindsight. There were no expansion models of success when TFC joined the league. Chivas? RSL? nope.

Seattle really set a better path, which is being imitated (to some degree) by Philly. Although Philly is probably more on the "draft" side than Seattle was.

But what's been learned is expansion in MLS is not the same as expansion in other leagues. In other leagues, expansion teams are provided with nothing but a dispersal draft. MLS provides so much support (including, I hear, a 1 million allocation) that the textbook on expansion now would be "you can create a good team immediately, no need to build over years."

I also think there's much more attention in these new MLS markets than in the past. Expansion teams since TFC are under a much greater microscope by fervent fan bases. More is expected.

Red Rat
04-20-2010, 11:23 AM
I reply on a much credible source to get my answers and I will share it with you..

http://www.flash-gear.com/8/index.php


rr

ensco
04-20-2010, 11:27 AM
That's what I said ("Dichio created lots of opportunities for Cunningham").

They clicked. But it didn't lead to a lot of goals because Cunny couldn't finish.

Remember all the times Dichio headed/passed a ball to Cunny, who ran on goal and shot it right into the keeper?

My seats are in the north west end, and I remember, sadly, so many Dichio-fed breakaways in Season 1 that led to no goals.

All true. But that supports the view that the June 2007 team was better. How many scoring chances per game has the 2010 team had?

We were too impatient with both Cunny and Buddle in 2007, let's face it. It wasn't our finest hour. You could argue we're collectively overcompansating and aren't giving Barrett as hard a time as we might/should now.

visca barca btw

spark
04-20-2010, 11:53 AM
Injuries in the second half to O'Brien, Dichio, Cunningham and Wynne hurt the team badly and exposed a lack of depth (i.e. Lombardo). 2010 has more depth, but I'd choose the 2007 starters.

This is an interesting point and should be noted 2010 is in a far more precarious position in terms of numbers. I'm not sure this team has more depth.

GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 12:07 PM
This is an interesting point and should be noted 2010 is in a far more precarious position in terms of numbers. I'm not sure this team has more depth.

It is debatable for sure. Neither team suffers from an embarassment of riches on the bench. The recent changes to the roster limits mean that 2010 probably will have a deeper bench. In 2007 we relied more on development players and some Canadian signings. In 2007, it was guys like Lombardo, Braz, Reda, Boyens, Canizalez. As meager as things look in 2010, I think our current bench (Gargan, Peterson, OBW, Hscanovics, Sanyang) is probably better than that group. I mean Reda, Braz and Boyens were serious pylons.

GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 12:35 PM
That's what I said ("Dichio created lots of opportunities for Cunningham").

They clicked. But it didn't lead to a lot of goals because Cunny couldn't finish.

Remember all the times Dichio headed/passed a ball to Cunny, who ran on goal and shot it right into the keeper?

My seats are in the north west end, and I remember, sadly, so many Dichio-fed breakaways in Season 1 that led to no goals.

Overall at TFC Cunny's strike rate was poor, but the Cunny/Dichio partnership only lasted 7 games in mid-2007. During those 7 games Cunningham scored 3 and Dichio 4. Small sample but still not bad. Not coincidentally this was the only period that Ronnie O'Brien was healthy in a TFC uniform. I do agree with you that Cunny missed barrels of opportunities, especially one game at Columbus (four breakaways as I recall), but he got opportunities which we don't see much of now.

My take on the Cunny situation is this. Mo got frustrated with Cunny over his injury. Mo thought he was faking it for some reason and things were never the same. Mo's attitude was passed on to Carver who eventually threw him under the bus. Cunny never got comfortable here.

Steve
04-20-2010, 01:06 PM
The sad part is, I agree with this thread. I think in 2007, we were much better. We had players that went on to bigger and better things (Cunningham scored the golden boot as soon as he left us). Essentially, we were ruined by poor luck, no depth, and inadequate coaching. If a great coach coached the 2007 we would have been contenders. I also agree that Dichio/Cunningham (the fast and the furious) had the potential to be one of the best strike partnerships in the league. Sadly, injury hit, and our coaches had no idea how to deal with Cunningham, which put him into a funk. I often wonder if the fans helped to create the mess we're in. We got on Buddle's case early, we got on "Cuntingham's" back, etc. We tended to blame players for everything bad that happened, and they got shipped out. Did the negative reaction of the fans force Mo's hand? Did the players read about it and lose confidence? Or was it a coincidence? We'll never know, but I feel like we're left with a worse team for it.

Oldtimer
04-20-2010, 01:32 PM
We had more hope in 2007.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-20-2010, 01:58 PM
we had more hope because we didnt know how much of a shyster Mo was...

koryo
04-20-2010, 02:24 PM
Footballing-wise probably not, but it seems that way because in 2007 we hadn't endured the last three years.

Brooker
04-20-2010, 02:34 PM
LOL. Cunningham as a striker for Toronto FC was completely and utterly useless. Just like Buddle.

Just because they are playing well with other teams doesn't mean they'd do it here. We already tried them and it failed.

We don't need another goalless drought.

GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 04:14 PM
LOL. Cunningham as a striker for Toronto FC was completely and utterly useless. Just like Buddle.

Just because they are playing well with other teams doesn't mean they'd do it here. We already tried them and it failed.

We don't need another goalless drought.

Cunningham was injured during the goalless drought. Lombardo and Samuel were not.

MFG1
04-20-2010, 05:45 PM
TFC, Toronto Future Champions......

Theres always next year. I will repost this, april 20 2011,2012,2013........

Crazy Canuck
04-20-2010, 05:50 PM
Dero makes the difference

Ossington Mental Youth
04-20-2010, 05:57 PM
Cunningham was injured during the goalless drought. Lombardo and Samuel were not.

not for the entire period he wasnt, he was useless even when he was fit

Bombonera
04-20-2010, 06:06 PM
Overall at TFC Cunny's strike rate was poor, but the Cunny/Dichio partnership only lasted 7 games in mid-2007. During those 7 games Cunningham scored 3 and Dichio 4. Small sample but still not bad. Not coincidentally this was the only period that Ronnie O'Brien was healthy in a TFC uniform. I do agree with you that Cunny missed barrels of opportunities, especially one game at Columbus (four breakaways as I recall), but he got opportunities which we don't see much of now.

My take on the Cunny situation is this. Mo got frustrated with Cunny over his injury. Mo thought he was faking it for some reason and things were never the same. Mo's attitude was passed on to Carver who eventually threw him under the bus. Cunny never got comfortable here.
Anyone who disagrees that there was excitement created by the Cunningham/Dichio, was either not there, or too drunk to appreciate what was going on.

Totally agreed that Carver and his egotistical horseshit approach to coaching fucked this whole thing up. And Mo hired the "controversial" and ridiculously mediocre MF along with siutable replacements like Robert and Gerba (WHo I hate even more fter that gratuitous interview...fat, slow, unproductive bastard that he is.

Mo was actually doing OK as our coach. We were having fun, and the 2007 played their hearts out. I don't get that from what is on the field now... I don't feel the love, desperation and/or pride.

2007 was and will always be a great year in team history. We were mediocre, but BMO was most certainly "our house" even when we did not win.

ensco
04-20-2010, 06:11 PM
not for the entire period he wasnt, he was useless even when he was fit

He was gone for most of the drought. I don't remember exactly when the injury happened, but he was already out for the Aston Villa game, which occurred two games into the streak

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2007/07/25/mls-soccer-astonvilla-torontofc.html

GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 06:17 PM
not for the entire period he wasnt, he was useless even when he was fit

Well technically you are correct. Cunningham appeared for 31 minutes of the 824 minute goal drought. He went to Germany for surgery after attempting to play in a game for 7 minutes and returned right at the end.
Clearly he was the main culprit.

Bombonera
04-20-2010, 06:29 PM
I rememember him coming back like 2 weeks after a hernia operation (or somthign like that)...

Let's please not forget how we cheered that moment. And if I remember correctly, he almost scored (he almost did that a lot:))

Actually, my memeory isn't that great, but were we not in the playoff hunt in 2007 until 2 or 3 games before the DD's momentous goal? Again, let's remeber that bottom dwellers also make the mls playoffs...

GeorgeBest
04-20-2010, 06:30 PM
Mo was actually doing OK as our coach. We were having fun, and the 2007 played their hearts out. I don't get that from what is on the field now... I don't feel the love, desperation and/or pride.

2007 was and will always be a great year in team history. We were mediocre, but BMO was most certainly "our house" even when we did not win.

I agree with this. We can debate whether 2007 was a better team, but there is no doubt that 2007 was a more fun team. Is anybody having fun with this 2010 team? It's more like going to the dentist. When Dichio scored that final goal against NE in 2007, and the pitch invasion followed, even though we had only won 6 games in the season, all was well with the world.

Bombonera
04-20-2010, 06:39 PM
So totally agreed. The first goal and the last were moments I and many others will cherish for a long long time.

DeRo PK's don't come close and never will. THey provide a glimmer of hope, a taste of success, but nothing sustainable..nothing memorable.

During 2007 the game was played and we loved it. Bitching and moaning is the god given rite of every football fan, but we are getting abused; what is going on right now is not ok for anyone..except for MO who is going to get paid regardless.

ensco
04-20-2010, 06:39 PM
not for the entire period he wasnt, he was useless even when he was fit

This one's for you, OMY

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3095

marquis
04-20-2010, 06:56 PM
From 2010 team I would only keep 3 players: DeRo, Frei and Attakora. It's pretty sad.

marquis
04-20-2010, 07:05 PM
4 games into the season boys, 4 games in

3 seasons and 4 games

Beach_Red
04-20-2010, 07:06 PM
I agree with this. We can debate whether 2007 was a better team, but there is no doubt that 2007 was a more fun team. Is anybody having fun with this 2010 team? It's more like going to the dentist. When Dichio scored that final goal against NE in 2007, and the pitch invasion followed, even though we had only won 6 games in the season, all was well with the world.

Sad but true.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-20-2010, 07:43 PM
This one's for you, OMY

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=3095

HAHA much appreciated