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tfc2007
04-19-2010, 11:56 AM
Here me out on this one, as I know many of you will disagree.

In my opinion Mo has become more of an easy target for supporters to blame, rather than actually doing a poor job. Last year we missed the playoffs by a point, therefore the squad that was put togerther by Mo could not have been that bad.

Mo could not have predicted that Carver would step down early in the season, and was forced to name CC the interm head coach. No one that good was avaliable at once, so it had to be done.

This off season, he signed Preki to be head coach, and I think since the second Preki signed, he has been the one making all the decisions. Mo is just does the paper work. I could be wrong here, but if you look at the players going out (Gurvera, Robinson etc) those were not bad players, that had been brought in under Mo. Those players did not work under Preki's plans, but that is not Mo's fault. The players have since come in I think have been under Preki's orders, and not fully Mo's decisions.

This is Preki's team.

And look at some of the positives Mo has done... DeRo (deal was complete robbery for TFC), JDG, drafting Frei, White, development of Attakora and Gala have been done under Mo.

I am by no means saying Mo is the best GM or anything like that, but I think supporters have just chosen someone to blame. When in fact, I do not think the chosen person really has much control over what happens.

fetajr
04-19-2010, 12:02 PM
sorry dude, i don't buy it.. we've sucked since 2007 and Mo has been in charge. In year one, Seattle makes noise..why?..proper management, good decisions, proven coaching. MO is a failure and its time to go

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UK-T-JSUWiE/SuhiML-WcGI/AAAAAAAAACo/NUPvCEQ9DsA/S220/mo-ve-out.jpg

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 12:04 PM
If Mo doesn't have control who does? Anselmi? Paul Beirne? My ticket rep?

Do me a favour, write down a list of reasons why this team is as poor as it is and then write down beside it who is ultimately responsible. Then get back to us.

nfitz
04-19-2010, 12:04 PM
I am by no means saying Mo is the best GM or anything like that, but I think supporters have just chosen someone to blame. When in fact, I do not think the chosen person really has much control over what happens.Yeah, I think you have nailed it.

A complete and total over-reaction by a few supporters!

Parkdale
04-19-2010, 12:08 PM
here's a comparison that some people might follow:

Generally ships don't sink because of one rogue 300 foot high wave.
Ships sink because lots of little problems compound themselves into
a much bigger problem. A light bulb burns out, so someone can't see
the inside wall of a storage locker, but that's where the anchor chain
in rubbing the hull, but it can't be seen until a storm, and it wears though...

anyway, the point is that sinking ships (like our club seems to be at the moment)
is a culmination of many factors. MoJo is one of the big ones, but so are a lot of
other little issues that all add up to an irrecoverable season.

Mo is a problem, but clearly there are more things at work that just one man's doing.

James Oliphant
04-19-2010, 12:09 PM
sorry dude, i don't buy it.. we've sucked since 2007 and Mo has been in charge. In year one, Seattle makes noise..why?..proper management, good decisions, proven coaching. MO is a failure and its time to go

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UK-T-JSUWiE/SuhiML-WcGI/AAAAAAAAACo/NUPvCEQ9DsA/S220/mo-ve-out.jpg

I wish people would stop using Seattle as some sort of precedent-setter.

Otherwise, I agree.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 12:10 PM
sorry dude, i don't buy it.. we've sucked since 2007 and Mo has been in charge. In year one, Seattle makes noise..why?..proper management, good decisions, proven coaching. MO is a failure and its time to go




Do you think the infrastucture of Seattle and TFC was the same from the beginning? Who is "in charge" in Seattle? How much money does he have to spend - sure every team has the same salary cap but everything else is up to the team.

We really don't know how this team has been set-up or run.

James Oliphant
04-19-2010, 12:11 PM
here's a comparison that some people might follow:

Generally ships don't sink because of one rogue 300 foot high wave.
Ships sink because lots of little problems compound themselves into
a much bigger problem. A light bulb burns out, so someone can't see
the inside wall of a storage locker, but that's where the anchor chain
in rubbing the hull, but it can't be seen until a storm, and it wears though...

anyway, the point is that sinking ships (like our club seems to be at the moment)
is a culmination of many factors. MoJo is one of the big ones, but so are a lot of
other little issues that all add up to an irrecoverable season.

Mo is a problem, but clearly there are more things at work that just one man's doing.

Ridiculous analogy. Absolutely fucking ridiculous. Thanks for the chuckle.

Menelaos
04-19-2010, 12:13 PM
The GM is ALWAYS the fallout guy right after the coach.

He's not the one playing like crap on the field, that much I will give you.
But he is the one who gave away Wynne (who kicked our ass last game), Serioux (who we could use in the middle), and has kept Garcia.

One those 3 facts alone, I would get rid of him.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 12:14 PM
If Mo doesn't have control who does? Anselmi? Paul Beirne? My ticket rep?

Do me a favour, write down a list of reasons why this team is as poor as it is and then write down beside it who is ultimately responsible. Then get back to us.

I think that's it right there. Who is in charge? Who sets the tone of the organization?

All organizations take on the personality of the leadership. Where is the leadership here? Like any business it has to come from someone who is ultmately responsible and not worried about getting fired - the owner. Everything flows from there.

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 12:14 PM
Yeah, I think you have nailed it.

A complete and total over-reaction by a few supporters!

:lol:

You mean most supporters with only a few stragglers left behind to excuse Mo's incompetence and continue drinking the kool-aid.

Batman
04-19-2010, 12:17 PM
This discussion could get interesting.

What is the cumulative results of Mojo's effort to date?

1) we got $5 mill or so for Mo Edu was turned into Grass.
2) we've not yet made the playoffs yet.
3) we have a 1 and 3 record this year.
4) we have what, about 8 holdover players from last year, and until this past game our current coach has thought only 3 of them merited being starters. Everyone else is new and unproven.
5) few if any of the new guys have distinguished themselves so far.
6) we've run through 75 players and probably 50 trialists
7) we're burning up our opportunities with Canadian players
8) we've tarnished our reputation

That's it. All the money, good will, and energy the fans have brought to this team have been effectively squandered by Mo with the exception of the grass being done with the $5 mill.

That's it. That's all he's accomplished. I think half the members of the RPB could probably have done just as well.

He had a crap track record at NY and has continued to have it here, and there is not one sign of a turnaround on the horizon.

It's his 7th year managing in MLS. He's had only 1 playoff appearance in 7 years and that was in a season in NY that he only managed about 5 games. It also immediately lost that one and only playoff appearance.

This CHARADE must stop.

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 12:18 PM
I think that's it right there. Who is in charge? Who sets the tone of the organization?

All organizations take on the personality of the leadership. Where is the leadership here? Like any business it has to come from someone who is ultmately responsible and not worried about getting fired - the owner. Everything flows from there.

Oh, I don't think you will find much resistance to the concept that MLSE is an owner without a good track record for winning.

However, they are not going anywhere. Who is directly responsible for TFC should really be the question. And I don't think it's my ticket rep.

There are two guys who report directly into the MLSE heirarchy. On is Mo Johnston and the other is Paul Beirne. If it isn't Mo's fault, then it's Paul's right? That's how ridiculous it is to shift blame away from Mo. We'd wind up directing our sights on the only part of this organization that seems to be working well. :rolleyes:

fetajr
04-19-2010, 12:18 PM
I wish people would stop using Seattle as some sort of precedent-setter.

I mention Seattle b/c they have proven that expansion teams don't need a 5-year plan to be competitive.

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 12:20 PM
I can't stand that people dismiss the Seattle example so easily.

Yes, they had infrastructure in place when jumping into the league.

But you know what? You only give a certain amount of credit for that. By year four for TFC, that excuse no longer works. Shoot...it shouldn't have worked for year three in my opinion. 1 maybe 2 years of credit at most. But at this point, Seattle is indeed showing us up big time.

Terrace Greg
04-19-2010, 12:20 PM
I just want to point out that up until the final 4 games of the season, no less than 14 teams had a chance of making the playoffs. All save the abhorid Red Bulls (who knocked us out of course).

That is to say, let's not give too much credit for the team ONLY missing the playoffs by one point. What this translates to in a league when roughly half the teams make the playoffs anyway? Well it means it was a totally indifferent season of tons of draws, whereby there was no clear seperation of the teams until the final 2 games really.

Again, this league last year, of 15 teams, 14 had legitimate shots (not long shots) of making the playoffs with 4 games to go. a victory for league parity, perhaps, but by missing out by one point, it doesn't prove any sort of distinguishable quality.

If this is the accomplishment that Mo is hanging his cred on, then I say not good enough.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 12:22 PM
:lol:

You mean most supporters with only a few stragglers left behind to excuse Mo's incompetence and continue drinking the kool-aid.


Ah, enough with the Kool Aid. When this franchise was announced my neighbour said he was buying four season tickets, did I want one. I didn't know soccer but I knew this company so I said no. Part way through the first season one of the other ticket holders got transferred out west and I started going to the games.

The atmosphere was fantastic and I kept coming back. At first I thought because of the salary cap and the parity any team in this legue could luck its way into the playoffs and maybe even a chapionship.

But the gap between teams has started to widen and I have zero expectations that these guys have what it takes to build a championship team in any sport.

ilikemusic
04-19-2010, 12:24 PM
Bullshit.

'Fall guy' implies he is getting an unwarranted amount of blame.

This is his team.

He couldnt have predicted JC leaving mid season? Then he shouldnt have hired someone he cant trust.

This is all MoJo's fault.

I disagree with anyone who says differently. Especially those people trying to blame Preki. Preki inhereted a horrible mess of a team that was put together by Mo.

Mo is not a simply a 'fall guy'. He is the reason this team is still shit. He has had four years and he has gotten us nowhere.

jabbronies
04-19-2010, 12:24 PM
I wasn't a Mo hater until this past off-season. The guy does not know how to build a soccer team in this league. Period. After 4 years of building, we are here with this team. That is shit on paper and on the field.

We have no sense of a tactical game - Preki's fault - who Mo hired
We have a bunch of place holders that were signed this year. Mo's fault
We don't have a full squad of players. Mo's fault
We have a DP who's position doesn't allow him to do what we need him to do (score goals) - Mo's fault

And yes, we almost made the playoffs last year, but even if we did, we still had a team that could only survive 1 season due to salary cap restrictions of the league. Mo's fault

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 12:26 PM
I mention Seattle b/c they have proven that expansion teams don't need a 5-year plan to be competitive.

And a good plan like RSL works. San Jose not so much.

If we just look a little deeper into the organizations that have been successful and those that haven't been, the differences will show up pretty quickly and they'll be more than just who sits in the GM chair.

A lot of it may simply come down to spending money. Seattle did get a DP in the first season.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 12:28 PM
Bullshit.

'Fall guy' implies he is getting an unwarranted amount of blame.

This is his team.

He couldnt have predicted JC leaving mid season? Then he shouldnt have hired someone he cant trust.




Did he? They're both First Wave, who's really calling the shots. Who's team is it really?

Suds
04-19-2010, 12:28 PM
Here me out on this one, as I know many of you will disagree.

In my opinion Mo has become more of an easy target for supporters to blame, rather than actually doing a poor job. Last year we missed the playoffs by a point, therefore the squad that was put togerther by Mo could not have been that bad.

Mo could not have predicted that Carver would step down early in the season, and was forced to name CC the interm head coach. No one that good was avaliable at once, so it had to be done.

This off season, he signed Preki to be head coach, and I think since the second Preki signed, he has been the one making all the decisions. Mo is just does the paper work. I could be wrong here, but if you look at the players going out (Gurvera, Robinson etc) those were not bad players, that had been brought in under Mo. Those players did not work under Preki's plans, but that is not Mo's fault. The players have since come in I think have been under Preki's orders, and not fully Mo's decisions.

This is Preki's team.

And look at some of the positives Mo has done... DeRo (deal was complete robbery for TFC), JDG, drafting Frei, White, development of Attakora and Gala have been done under Mo.

I am by no means saying Mo is the best GM or anything like that, but I think supporters have just chosen someone to blame. When in fact, I do not think the chosen person really has much control over what happens.


Fair enough. So are you saying Preki is the reason the team is as bad as it it at this stage?

The responsibility has to be on someone or a group of people. So either it's the players, the coaches, management, or all of them. Who do you suggest is the problem? Better yet, what remedy do you suggest?

ua-kozak_TFC
04-19-2010, 12:32 PM
I wish people would stop using Seattle as some sort of precedent-setter.

Otherwise, I agree.
How much you want to bet that Philly will be better than us this season.. yet i can safely assume that you would probably consider them in the same expansion category than us...
EVEN look at NY Red Bulls... Last year UTTER SHIT! this year... look like a pretty awesome shit... that will definetly challenge the playoff run. THEY made that change in less than 5 month... we game mo almost 4 tried to rebuild this team... ENOUGH is ENOUGH!!!

fetajr
04-19-2010, 12:35 PM
and where the fuck are the scouts!?... thats MLSE's fault... Mo has to go to soccer's version of ManPower to find fringe players to make up his squad.

even a Directv system with access to all of the south american channels showcasing cheap latin american talent would be a good start for MLSE to invest in.

Steve
04-19-2010, 12:35 PM
The GM is ALWAYS the fallout guy right after the coach.

He's not the one playing like crap on the field, that much I will give you.
But he is the one who gave away Wynne (who kicked our ass last game), Serioux (who we could use in the middle), and has kept Garcia.

One those 3 facts alone, I would get rid of him.

Let's be fair, those moves almost definitely came from Preki (Mo drafted Wynne, and worked to get Serioux last year, it was Preki who didn't have them in his plans).

Whoop
04-19-2010, 12:36 PM
I can't stand that people dismiss the Seattle example so easily.

Yes, they had infrastructure in place when jumping into the league.

But you know what? You only give a certain amount of credit for that. By year four for TFC, that excuse no longer works. Shoot...it shouldn't have worked for year three in my opinion. 1 maybe 2 years of credit at most. But at this point, Seattle is indeed showing us up big time.

Exactly... we're in year 4.

We should be ahead of where we were in year 3.

I don't think it was fair to compare Year 1 of Seattle versus Year 1 of Toronto. But year 4 of Toronto vs. year 2 of Seattle... it's a better comparison.

ua-kozak_TFC
04-19-2010, 12:38 PM
Here me out on this one, as I know many of you will disagree.

In my opinion Mo has become more of an easy target for supporters to blame, rather than actually doing a poor job. Last year we missed the playoffs by a point, therefore the squad that was put togerther by Mo could not have been that bad.

Mo could not have predicted that Carver would step down early in the season, and was forced to name CC the interm head coach. No one that good was avaliable at once, so it had to be done.


I think the main reason why Carver lefft.... was bcs HE kept asking for players specially at the back and they never came ( Mind you i don;t think Carver was a great coach to begin with... he was too emotional. And what he considered "tactics" were just gimmics, he was so one dimensional and awkward, no clue what he was doing. He would give a team praise or players praise when the result was largely due horrible plays by the opposition... And then make our starters sit for being away on international duty. WHen the reserves sucked butt... but where lucky to come away with a results..

Damien
04-19-2010, 12:39 PM
Changing coaches and players is like clipping the leaves off a weed.

You gotta pluck the weed and plant a seed to have a green lawn.

Don Julio
04-19-2010, 12:39 PM
4 coaches, 75 players, and we still suck - maybe worse than ever.

There's only one constant, and he's the guy making all the decisions.

Occam's razor, folks.

mmmikey
04-19-2010, 12:42 PM
no project can succeed without good leadership. on the off chance they do, it comes from a momentous effort by the team to get shit done in spite of their leadership. as far as the product on the field mo is the leader.

-he signs/drafts the players (some successful, others horrible gaffs, especially salary wise, and a continually unbalanced roster)
-he signs the coaches (ugh)
-coordinates scouting and talent acquisition (drafts well)
-manages the cap (the horror, the horror)

when u build a house and it falls down, u dont say but hey!! wasnt that kitchen beautiful? real quality in there. he needs to be successful from the foundations, to the structure to the finishing touches.

has mo been shit 24/7? no... but his mistakes have far outweighed his successes. in the end, the only thing he should be judged on is how the product on the field performs, and he has done a poor job in a league that allows u to turn a franchise around in a hurry.

Don Julio
04-19-2010, 12:42 PM
and where the fuck are the scouts!?... thats MLSE's fault... Mo has to go to soccer's version of ManPower to find fringe players to make up his squad.

even a Directv system with access to all of the south american channels showcasing cheap latin american talent would be a good start for MLSE to invest in.

No, a lack of scouts would be Mo's fault. There really is no evidence that MLSE is denying any requests for money/scouts/anything. (except maybe a roof)

The GM is in charge of scouting. If it is inadequate (all signs point to yes) then it is his responsibility to fix it.

Why doesn't he?

Incompetence? Arrogance? Kickbacks?

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 12:43 PM
has mo been shit 24/7? no... but his mistakes have far outweighed his successes. in the end, the only thing he should be judged on is how the product on the field performs, and he has done a poor job in a league that allows u to turn a franchise around in a hurry.

QFFT...

KezmanCCCC
04-19-2010, 12:43 PM
Here me out on this one, as I know many of you will disagree.

In my opinion Mo has become more of an easy target for supporters to blame, rather than actually doing a poor job. Last year we missed the playoffs by a point, therefore the squad that was put togerther by Mo could not have been that bad.

Mo could not have predicted that Carver would step down early in the season, and was forced to name CC the interm head coach. No one that good was avaliable at once, so it had to be done.

This off season, he signed Preki to be head coach, and I think since the second Preki signed, he has been the one making all the decisions. Mo is just does the paper work. I could be wrong here, but if you look at the players going out (Gurvera, Robinson etc) those were not bad players, that had been brought in under Mo. Those players did not work under Preki's plans, but that is not Mo's fault. The players have since come in I think have been under Preki's orders, and not fully Mo's decisions.

This is Preki's team.

And look at some of the positives Mo has done... DeRo (deal was complete robbery for TFC), JDG, drafting Frei, White, development of Attakora and Gala have been done under Mo.

I am by no means saying Mo is the best GM or anything like that, but I think supporters have just chosen someone to blame. When in fact, I do not think the chosen person really has much control over what happens.

Mo and Preki are too blame... the squad we had last season was enough to get us to the playoffs this season with the addition of a good CB and striker... preki is just a typical pighead arrogant serb... he didnt like some of the most valuable players on our squad (guevara, robinson and serioux) and a few other players that were worth keeping and now look at the situation we are now in..... the players that have left have no where been matched with the players that have come in... i think more than half the players we have on our team as of now are complete SHIT... with the exception of a few... (dero, JDG, White, Nana, frei, croin, sanyang and cann) and even a few of the players i have listed have yet to prove themselves.... im really getting sick of this shit... for the past 3 seasons at the begining of each new season i have always said to myself "this season will be better, we are getting there" and at this point i am not saying that to myself for this season... i just dont see it.... i will always support TFC through think and thin but its starting to get at the heart when every game i expect for the worst and hope for the best....

mmmikey
04-19-2010, 12:44 PM
Changing coaches and players is like clipping the leaves off a weed.

You gotta pluck the weed and plant a seed to have a green lawn.

love the analogy :)

dupont
04-19-2010, 12:46 PM
This team was so close to the playoffs last season that all they needed was a striker and/or a defender to make it in. The fact that he let (or caused) the team to be ripped apart and replaced with worse players that barely know each other is his own fault. I don't care if it was Preki demanding all the player changes or Mo because Mo is the one that hired Preki in the first place.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 12:48 PM
No, a lack of scouts would be Mo's fault. There really is no evidence that MLSE is denying any requests for money/scouts/anything. (except maybe a roof)

The GM is in charge of scouting. If it is inadequate (all signs point to yes) then it is his responsibility to fix it.

Why doesn't he?

Incompetence? Arrogance? Kickbacks?

How do we know that requests for money haven't been denied? What evidence is there one way or the other?

ilikemusic
04-19-2010, 12:49 PM
This team was so close to the playoffs last season that all they needed was a striker and/or a defender to make it in. The fact that he let (or caused) the team to be ripped apart and replaced with worse players that barely know each other is his own fault. I don't care if it was Preki demanding all the player changes or Mo because Mo is the one that hired Preki in the first place.

Exactly.

For the people who seem to hate Preki's hard ass attitude and want to lay the blame for this season's start on him that is fine. But the fact remains that Mo hired Preki. How many mulligan's does Mo get? What has he done to earn even one?

boban
04-19-2010, 12:50 PM
There are two guys who report directly into the MLSE heirarchy. On is Mo Johnston and the other is Paul Beirne. If it isn't Mo's fault, then it's Paul's right? That's how ridiculous it is to shift blame away from Mo. We'd wind up directing our sights on the only part of this organization that seems to be working well. :rolleyes:
It goes higher than that. I agree with Beach_Red. It's not the hierarchy of TFC, its the hierarchy of MLSE. And the low man at MLSE, to start things off is Alselmi. He hired Mo and puts the master plan (on field,business, etc.). he has some answering to do.

ginkster88
04-19-2010, 01:11 PM
Ridiculous analogy. Absolutely fucking ridiculous. Thanks for the chuckle.

Fine, how does the Three Mile Island accident work for you then?

However, I would tend to argue that Mo is the cause of all of the little problems that have come together to sink the team. Put together cap issues, roster inadequacies, choice of managers, alienation of players... there's one man at the centre of it all.

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 01:31 PM
Mo and Preki are too blame... the squad we had last season was enough to get us to the playoffs this season with the addition of a good CB and striker... preki is just a typical pighead arrogant serb... he didnt like some of the most valuable players on our squad (guevara, robinson and serioux) and a few other players that were worth keeping and now look at the situation we are now in..... the players that have left have no where been matched with the players that have come in... i think more than half the players we have on our team as of now are complete SHIT... with the exception of a few... (dero, JDG, White, Nana, frei, croin, sanyang and cann) and even a few of the players i have listed have yet to prove themselves.... im really getting sick of this shit... for the past 3 seasons at the begining of each new season i have always said to myself "this season will be better, we are getting there" and at this point i am not saying that to myself for this season... i just dont see it.... i will always support TFC through think and thin but its starting to get at the heart when every game i expect for the worst and hope for the best....

Carefull.

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 01:42 PM
Carefull.

I was thinking the same thing, but then realized he's Serbian. So I ended up confused.

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 01:51 PM
Last year we missed the playoffs by a point, therefore the squad that was put togerther by Mo could not have been that bad.

In a league were more than half of the teams make the play-offs, we didn't. That's the team that Mo put together. We used about $800k in allocation money last year, we were out-spending our competitors by about $500k and still could make the play-offs. Mo built a team that was severly unbalanced, half the players on the team were CMs. We had no width what so ever, which made us the easiest team in the league to defend against. Cummings - who is the biggest fall guy in the history of this club - did what he could with what he was given to work with. The reality is that there isn't a coach in the world who could have made that team work, because it was so poorly put together. That's Mo's fault.



Mo could not have predicted that Carver would step down early in the season, and was forced to name CC the interm head coach. No one that good was avaliable at once, so it had to be done.


And why did Carver suddenly quit? It's because Mo lied to him. Carver wanted to view the game from the vantage point above the field and Mo told him that the league demanded that he be on the sideline. Carver went ballistic. Then it came out that the demand didn't come from the league, that Mo wanted him there but could be honest and lied to Carver about it. That betrayal caused Carver to quit. That's Mo's fault.



This off season, he signed Preki to be head coach, and I think since the second Preki signed, he has been the one making all the decisions. Mo is just does the paper work. I could be wrong here, but if you look at the players going out (Gurvera, Robinson etc) those were not bad players, that had been brought in under Mo. Those players did not work under Preki's plans, but that is not Mo's fault. The players have since come in I think have been under Preki's orders, and not fully Mo's decisions.

This is Preki's team.


Because we were so far over the cap last season (by use of allocation money) we had to get under the cap this season - that's Mo's mismanagement for not having a plan in place to deal with the consequences of his signings last year. It seems as if Preki has made the moves, but the types of moves that he's been able to make are a result of Mo's mismanagement. That's meant a combination of shedding salary (Robbo, Guevara, Serioux) and trading expensive players for cheaper ones (Wynne for LaBrocca). That's Mo's fault.



And look at some of the positives Mo has done... DeRo (deal was complete robbery for TFC), JDG, drafting Frei, White, development of Attakora and Gala have been done under Mo.


Getting DeRo was great, how he got DeRo and the lies involved have hurt this club's reputation. It's a question mark whether or not JDG is a good move or not. Mo has drafted relatively well...mind you, because we've been so shit he's had good picks to draft with. Mo has nothing to do (positive or negative) with how the young players turn out (for the better or worse).



I am by no means saying Mo is the best GM or anything like that, but I think supporters have just chosen someone to blame. When in fact, I do not think the chosen person really has much control over what happens.

Things aren't good, are they? Have they ever been good? Someone is responsible for that, right? There's been two constants in our history - our GM and our owner. We can't change our owner. Where does that leave us?

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 01:52 PM
I was thinking the same thing, but then realized he's Serbian. So I ended up confused.

The problem is that not everyone who reads that knows that. Outsiders read that (and believe me, we're being watched!) and it gets reported that we allow racist comments to be made on our boards.

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 01:55 PM
True. Guys let's stay away from broad stereotypical comments about cultures and races even if it's our own.

ua-kozak_TFC
04-19-2010, 01:55 PM
Mo and Preki are too blame... the squad we had last season was enough to get us to the playoffs this season with the addition of a good CB and striker... preki is just a typical pighead arrogant serb... he didnt like some of the most valuable players on our squad (guevara, robinson and serioux) and a few other players that were worth keeping and now look at the situation we are now in..... the players that have left have no where been matched with the players that have come in... i think more than half the players we have on our team as of now are complete SHIT... with the exception of a few... (dero, JDG, White, Nana, frei, croin, sanyang and cann) and even a few of the players i have listed have yet to prove themselves.... im really getting sick of this shit... for the past 3 seasons at the begining of each new season i have always said to myself "this season will be better, we are getting there" and at this point i am not saying that to myself for this season... i just dont see it.... i will always support TFC through think and thin but its starting to get at the heart when every game i expect for the worst and hope for the best....
If you realize that is 8 players... we almost got a full team. i would take JDG off the list for being overpayed.. I am by no means an optimist but i am willing to be patient with preki but not with MO...
YOu need to remembed that LAST year we had almost 1mill of extra cap space due to the allocation money we got in return... The same players WOULDn't fit this year... And its the reason why Mo made DICHIO retire to play JDG...
Last year we were full of overpayed players that RARELY worked on the field... guevara is a prime example... he would score on the set pieces... but didn;t do shit ALL in between them... LAst year and the year before and the year before that... we had all this gimmics as players with no clear idea of cohesiveness... everyone was an individuallity who took as no where.
As someone said here... atleast our defense is looking more slightly better now... i think The best move foward. Is to FIRE MO... and give COMPLETE control to PREKi (while looking for somebody for possible ppl to take control of TFC on the fifth season) see what he can do with the team and where we will be in novemeber. IF there is progress on the field play, regardless whether we make the play offs keep him if not... give him a boot.

I think if we gave an idiot like MO 3+ years of patients the least we could do is to give Preki a chance to show us where he wants us to go...

Oldtimer
04-19-2010, 01:58 PM
I don't care about Seattle (apples and oranges). It's a distraction to mention them.

What I do care is that a 4th year squad is looking worse than TFC's second year squad. That is Mo's fault.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 02:17 PM
And why did Carver suddenly quit? It's because Mo lied to him. Carver wanted to view the game from the vantage point above the field and Mo told him that the league demanded that he be on the sideline. Carver went ballistic. Then it came out that the demand didn't come from the league, that Mo wanted him there but could be honest and lied to Carver about it. That betrayal caused Carver to quit. That's Mo's fault.




If Carver wasn't still a First Wae client this would be easier to accept. There was a lot more going on there than a simple one guy lied to another. Was Carver with First Wave before he took the job? How big a role did they play in that whole fiasco?

We have no idea what really happened.

TFCtoMUFC
04-19-2010, 02:22 PM
I think Mo has made it clear that acquisitions this year have been Preki's idea so that Preki is Mo's fall guy.

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 02:35 PM
If Carver wasn't still a First Wae client this would be easier to accept. There was a lot more going on there than a simple one guy lied to another. Was Carver with First Wave before he took the job? How big a role did they play in that whole fiasco?

We have no idea what really happened.

He had some health concerns - he was a high strung, short tempered, stressed out kind of person. He'd been like that his whole life, but before working for TFC he'd managed to keep that in check (in terms of it effecting his health). While he was here, he wasn't able to keep those things in check and they became a health risk. His frustrations with the MLS got the better of him, but there was an us-against-them attitude at TFC where he felt supported. He went ballistic when he thought the MLS was stepping in and telling him where he could and couldn't stand. He was allowed to believe that for a couple of days (or longer?). When it came out that it was Mo's decision and not the league's, and Mo had allowed him to think that it was the league, allowed him to speak out against the league etc. before finally coming clean the betrayal was too much for him to bare.

DIRECT sources, people with 1st hand knowledge of the situation (players, staff, a RPB who spoke to Carver himself etc.), have told me that...and I've heard the same thing from too many unconected people for it to not be true.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 02:55 PM
^ Sure, it's all possible. But when Carver and Mo have the same agent it seems strange. Especially when it's an agency with their hands all over the team. The fact that none of these sources mention the company that put the whole deal together seems odd. Did Mo hire Carver or did First Wave? Did the two guys ever get along? Where was MLSE through all this.

It just seems like a much bigger, more complicated mess that's all.

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 03:02 PM
^ I'm not sure what (if any) role First Wave played in all of this, aside from maybe making the recomendation to hire Carver in the first place (I don't even know if that's true or not). By all accounts Mo and JC did get along, and that's part of what made Mo's betrayal something JC couldn't deal with.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 03:08 PM
^ Of course, I don't know either, but we do know that agents play a huge role in sports today. It's really unlikely they played no role at all. Maybe Mo hired Carver and Carver became a First Wave client at that point (he is still listed on their site as a client - the only non-MLS coach they rep. They also rep Preki) or maybe he was already a First Wave client. Or maybe of all the coaches they approached for the job he was the only one who agreed to become a client. We don't know.

nascarguy
04-19-2010, 03:15 PM
who or what is First Wave

eagles8
04-19-2010, 03:16 PM
Remind me please. What good things has Mo done for us?

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 03:19 PM
PURE speculation on my part...

I assume that Carver must have had an agent in England, but its possible that First Wave were hired to be Carver's North American representatives.

I don't know how things work with athletes, but in the music business its common (for big bands) to have an actual manager/management company and then have other companies/firms/agents/managers representing them in other markets. I know a guy who runs a (music) PR firm in Philadelphia who's turned that into a management consulting firm as well...basically, he acts as the North American rep for various band's established European management. His clients often tour North America together (Iron Maiden and Judas Priest for example) - that's not by accident ;)

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 03:21 PM
who or what is First Wave

It's a management agency that represents most of the players on TFC, our coaching staff and Mo. When we bring guys in on trial, they're almost always other First Wave clients.

DichioTFC
04-19-2010, 03:23 PM
I think the other actors in MLSE should also get part of the blame (they're responsible for hiring and firing the Director of Soccer). but I think the general consensus that Mo is getting blamed, and rightfully so.

Due credit to the OP for challenging the traditional train of thought.

tfc2007
04-19-2010, 03:32 PM
Remind me please. What good things has Mo done for us?

See first post.

Come on.

You can not seriously think EVERYTHING in the past 4 years is bad.

eagles8
04-19-2010, 03:42 PM
See first post.

Come on.

You can not seriously think EVERYTHING in the past 4 years is bad.
I'll give you DeRo, Dichio and Attakora. Yes, EVERYTHING else is bad.

icecoldbeer
04-19-2010, 03:45 PM
People need to watch this.... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1226271/

Pookie
04-19-2010, 03:47 PM
here's a comparison that some people might follow:

Generally ships don't sink because of one rogue 300 foot high wave.
Ships sink because lots of little problems compound themselves into
a much bigger problem. A light bulb burns out, so someone can't see
the inside wall of a storage locker, but that's where the anchor chain
in rubbing the hull, but it can't be seen until a storm, and it wears though...


I'm not sure about your conclusion but I'm bringing a light bulb in my luggage for our next cruise.

Pookie
04-19-2010, 03:50 PM
This team was so close to the playoffs last season that all they needed was a striker and/or a defender to make it in.

Really?

I thought we just needed a team that could earn a point against the league's worst club in the final game of the season.

The guys we had weren't good enough for that (or for scoring a goal in the CCL playoffs against the Islanders or for holding any one of a number of leads late in games or for winning a 3 team tournament against USL clubs in 2008 or for making the playoffs then or in 2007 or holding leads in 2008 or that holding leads thing again in 2007 or...).

Yep, a striker or a defender was all that we needed.

CretanBull
04-19-2010, 03:54 PM
People need to watch this.... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1226271/

Saddly, Mo wasn't sacked after 44 days.

jabbronies
04-19-2010, 03:54 PM
Really?

I thought we just needed a team that could earn a point against the league's worst club in the final game of the season.

The guys we had weren't good enough for that (or for scoring a goal in the CCL playoffs against the Islanders or for holding any one of a number of leads late in games or for winning a 3 team tournament against USL clubs in 2008 or for making the playoffs then or in 2007 or holding leads in 2008 or that holding leads thing again in 2007 or...).

Yep, a striker or a defender was all that we needed.

A defender or striker was all we needed last year to make the playoffs. I agree with that. A striker who could score would've gotten us at least a game or two in the books and would've scored against the islanders.

a defender would not have let so many late goals go in. We would've won at least a game or two because of it.

either scenario, we're in the playoffs.

instead...Mo brought in a Defensive Mid. DP

Don Julio
04-19-2010, 04:00 PM
1 point from the playoffs or not, I watched the team last year and 75% of the time we were shit. Making the playoffs is not even something to be proud of in this league.

Pookie
04-19-2010, 04:01 PM
instead...Mo brought in a Defensive Mid. DP

I disagree on the assessment that we were a player away from achieving something.

IMO, repeated failures like we saw last year (and the year before and the year before that and the year before that) indicated a much larger problem and dysfunction within the team.

That said, your last point is the interesting one. Once the Mo issue is resolved, attention needs to be directed towards this DP issue. Do we have the right one?

jabbronies
04-19-2010, 04:04 PM
I disagree on the assessment that we were a player away from achieving something.

IMO, repeated failures like we saw last year (and the year before and the year before that and the year before that) indicated a much larger problem and dysfunction within the team.

That said, your last point is the interesting one. Once the Mo issue is resolved, attention needs to be directed towards this DP issue. Do we have the right one?

Oh I'm not denying that 1 or 2 players would have drastically changed the way the team played. I'm just saying a real player in one of those key positions could've changed our fortunes in a game or two, thus getting us into the playoffs.

I never said we'd be a better team. just luckier.

eagles8
04-19-2010, 04:16 PM
1 or 2 players would make a difference. Isn't that what Real Madrid thought?

Number Ten
04-19-2010, 04:17 PM
I will just add that Preki is no better at putting a team together or coaching than Mo (prob the only guy who would come to Toronto). They should all go.

We continue to just turnover players -- a strategy to keeps us suckers "hopeful" -- "oh, this new guy will finally solve our back end"; "this guy knows how to put the ball in the net"; "our midfield will be complete with his style"; etc.

They continue to treat players like crap. The ones they dump... and also the current squad (all obviously quite unhappy).

Gazza_55
04-19-2010, 04:23 PM
How much you want to bet that Philly will be better than us this season.. yet i can safely assume that you would probably consider them in the same expansion category than us...
EVEN look at NY Red Bulls... Last year UTTER SHIT! this year... look like a pretty awesome shit... that will definetly challenge the playoff run. THEY made that change in less than 5 month... we game mo almost 4 tried to rebuild this team... ENOUGH is ENOUGH!!!

Agreed. Not only will Philly be better than us this year - they have 4 very skilled offensive threats who are young (Torres, Okugu, and Mwanga who are 18 and McInerney who is 17).

J .
04-19-2010, 04:54 PM
A defender or striker was all we needed last year to make the playoffs. I agree with that. A striker who could score would've gotten us at least a game or two in the books and would've scored against the islanders.

a defender would not have let so many late goals go in. We would've won at least a game or two because of it.

either scenario, we're in the playoffs.

instead...Mo brought in a Defensive Mid. DP

We would have made the playoffs if our players didnt shit the bed in NY. It wasn't on Mo, thats on the players. They were in a position to win and did fuck all.

JDG is the best Canadian talent, or at least was, also, for the CMNT he was a dynamic creative attacker, something he has NOT shown for TFC.

Beach_Red
04-19-2010, 05:10 PM
PURE speculation on my part...

I assume that Carver must have had an agent in England, but its possible that First Wave were hired to be Carver's North American representatives.

I don't know how things work with athletes, but in the music business its common (for big bands) to have an actual manager/management company and then have other companies/firms/agents/managers representing them in other markets. I know a guy who runs a (music) PR firm in Philadelphia who's turned that into a management consulting firm as well...basically, he acts as the North American rep for various band's established European management. His clients often tour North America together (Iron Maiden and Judas Priest for example) - that's not by accident ;)

Yes, and if Iron Maiden and Judas Priest got into a fight during the tour the 'consultant' who put the tour together would get involved and sort it out. One of them might even leave the tour and the official reason and the real reason wouldn't be the same...

All we see are the results. We have no idea what's really going on. But from what we've seen not everyone in charge has the sameview of the situation ha we do. So, what do they know that we don't?

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2010, 05:52 PM
We would have made the playoffs if our players didnt shit the bed in NY. It wasn't on Mo, thats on the players. They were in a position to win and did fuck all.

JDG is the best Canadian talent, or at least was, also, for the CMNT he was a dynamic creative attacker, something he has NOT shown for TFC.

Agreed, although the signing of DeGuzman was clearly a desperate maneuver at the time that did not address the most significant shortcomings within the roster.

I honestly don't fault Mo for his effort in trying to assemble a winning product in the pitch but he must be held accountable for the end result.

I think he has been competent at various times throughout his tenure in acquiring talented players that have since departed such as Buddle, Casey, Nagamura, Cunningham, Ruiz, Robert, Dichio, Guevara, Robinson, Gerba, etc. Unfortunately most of those players did not realize their potential in Toronto for various reasons including impatience as well as coaching tactics.

JDG and DeRo are the best Canadian players on the CMNT and MoJo agressively pursued them for which he should be lauded.

The difficulty is that the only constant throughout the first 4 years has been change. Mo has lacked a long term vision for the franchise since he was hired as Director Of Soccer Operations by MLSE. The lack of continuity within the roster has long plagued the club and inhibited any chances of sustained success on the pitch. Valuable pieces have been added to the puzzle at the wrong time. The greatest perennial void within the roster has yet to be filled at the striker position. The current lineup is a work in progress 4 games into the regular season.

MoJo has hired Preki in a last gasp effort to save his job. In the process he had to give Preki full authority to dismantle the club which in of itself was an act of desperation. As a result, some questionable player transactions have left supporters and media types alike bewildered while Preki assembles a roster according to his own blueprint.

If MoJo had not been in the desperate predicament he was in during the offseason as a result of his own failures he would have been able to hire a coach on his own terms and been able to focus his attention on solidifying the backline and adding a legitimate striker to the existing squad that was so close to a playoff spot last season.

MoJo has caused his own demise. If Preki has in fact made the right moves and molds this club into a playoff team than MoJo deserves little to no credit for any success based on a complete roster overhaul that was probably never warranted in the first place...

jloome
04-19-2010, 09:09 PM
and where the fuck are the scouts!?... thats MLSE's fault... Mo has to go to soccer's version of ManPower to find fringe players to make up his squad.

even a Directv system with access to all of the south american channels showcasing cheap latin american talent would be a good start for MLSE to invest in.

They play Uruguayan leageu games on GOLtv, and that country is loaded with relatively bargain talent. Loaded.

Jose Mourinho
04-19-2010, 09:30 PM
In a league were more than half of the teams make the play-offs, we didn't. That's the team that Mo put together. We used about $800k in allocation money last year, we were out-spending our competitors by about $500k and still could make the play-offs. Mo built a team that was severly unbalanced, half the players on the team were CMs. We had no width what so ever, which made us the easiest team in the league to defend against. Cummings - who is the biggest fall guy in the history of this club - did what he could with what he was given to work with. The reality is that there isn't a coach in the world who could have made that team work, because it was so poorly put together. That's Mo's fault.



And why did Carver suddenly quit? It's because Mo lied to him. Carver wanted to view the game from the vantage point above the field and Mo told him that the league demanded that he be on the sideline. Carver went ballistic. Then it came out that the demand didn't come from the league, that Mo wanted him there but could be honest and lied to Carver about it. That betrayal caused Carver to quit. That's Mo's fault.



Because we were so far over the cap last season (by use of allocation money) we had to get under the cap this season - that's Mo's mismanagement for not having a plan in place to deal with the consequences of his signings last year. It seems as if Preki has made the moves, but the types of moves that he's been able to make are a result of Mo's mismanagement. That's meant a combination of shedding salary (Robbo, Guevara, Serioux) and trading expensive players for cheaper ones (Wynne for LaBrocca). That's Mo's fault.



Getting DeRo was great, how he got DeRo and the lies involved have hurt this club's reputation. It's a question mark whether or not JDG is a good move or not. Mo has drafted relatively well...mind you, because we've been so shit he's had good picks to draft with. Mo has nothing to do (positive or negative) with how the young players turn out (for the better or worse).



Things aren't good, are they? Have they ever been good? Someone is responsible for that, right? There's been two constants in our history - our GM and our owner. We can't change our owner. Where does that leave us?

I just wanted to say that after 3 years of following these boards, that was the best post I have ever read.

tfc2007
04-20-2010, 10:41 AM
How?

Not all of it is fact based? How can he say Carver quit becaus Mo lied to him? How does he know that.

jloome
04-20-2010, 11:28 AM
Mo left Carver with the impression the reason he wasn't allowed upstairs to coach was because the league demanded it. Carver blew a gasket and quit.

The league, burned by this, issued a public statement clarifying it had NO ROLE whatsoever. It was entirely Mo, being cowardly and deliberately dicking Carver around.

He also told Chris Cummings that he expected no problems getting a work permit for his wife. THat may just have been a mistake -- initially. But he kept that charade up for the rest of the season.

CretanBull
04-20-2010, 06:15 PM
How?

Not all of it is fact based? How can he say Carver quit becaus Mo lied to him? How does he know that.

I know it for a fact. There were two issues - Carver's health & being lied to by Mo. The stress and frustration of dealing with this league was becoming a health worry for him, he felt OK knowing that he had support at TFC. When he found out that he'd been betrayed, he decided to pack in it.

tfc2007
04-20-2010, 09:16 PM
... And the fact he didnt like MLS and all its stupid rules.

Roogsy
04-20-2010, 09:24 PM
I just wanted to say that after 3 years of following these boards, that was the best post I have ever read.

Oh it's pretty good alright. CB is da man!

yankiboy
04-21-2010, 08:28 AM
From the prespective of an nonTFC supporter who follows the team and the league, looking from the outside in:

Many of us have wondered how Mo has managed to KEEP his job. Most of us believe that we pretty much know what is "behind the curtain" and while we admittedly haven't had the chance to actually look--the perception is that with Mo--it ain't alot.

And that is pretty sad coming from some of us whose MLS dreams hang on Kevin Payne (DC United). Outside of the miracle of winning the Nutrilite Championship last year, with all due respect to Mo (and not to marginalize the Nutrilite but Trois-Rivières Attak would have put up a better fight than that excuse that Montreal sent)-- what has Mo actually done except for shuffle players in and out like a nonfunctional fantasy GM?

ilikemusic
04-21-2010, 03:02 PM
People who followed the league and who I talked to leading into season one said the same things about Mo that TFC fans only seem to be realizing now.

He is a franchise killer. Red Bull fans were laughing at TFC for hiring MoJo. And rightfully so.

Ive been of the position all along that the only reason he still has his job is that Canadians who know nothing about football (i.e. the guys at MLSE) love to hear someone with a Scottish accent talk football to them. They inherently trust that accent and respect it because they see British football as being synonymous with Canadian hockey. Hard nosed good ol boys who play the game the right way.

Mo has been taking the piss out of this organization and this fan base ever since day one.

fetajr
04-21-2010, 03:34 PM
People who followed the league and who I talked to leading into season one said the same things about Mo that TFC fans only seem to be realizing now.

He is a franchise killer. Red Bull fans were laughing at TFC for hiring MoJo. And rightfully so.

Ive been of the position all along that the only reason he still has his job is that Canadians who know nothing about football (i.e. the guys at MLSE) love to hear someone with a Scottish accent talk football to them. They inherently trust that accent and respect it because they see British football as being synonymous with Canadian hockey. Hard nosed good ol boys who play the game the right way.

Mo has been taking the piss out of this organization and this fan base ever since day one.

+1 :flare: