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superstar1976
04-17-2010, 09:52 PM
First time poster, long time lurker.

Interesting that JDG makes all the money, but for my worth DERO is more valuable to the team. JDG earned the payday though as he has "made it" and DERO hasn't, but DERO's impact on games is DP worthy.

I like JDG and think he will show his worth as the team gels and season progresses. He's a good passer, but hasn't had good options. He has great vision, but hasn't had players to anticipate where he's going to lead them. He's a ball winner, but has seemed lost at times in the middle of the field. All that will come with familiarity considering many new teammates.

So, who is worth more to the team? Probably too early for judgement, but I'd say DERO at this point in time because he's been the game changer.

p.s. I hate Nick Garcia too, lol.

koryo
04-17-2010, 09:56 PM
Long story short: for JDG to be of any use to us then he needs to start playing to the strengths (such as they are) of the players around him.

Sad but true.

superstar1976
04-17-2010, 10:00 PM
Long story short: for JDG to be of any use to us then he needs to start playing to the strengths (such as they are) of the players around him.

Sad but true.

That is a good point. Great players make the players around them that much better......is it possible though that he is used to such a high level in La Liga that the adjustment is just going to be that much tougher for him? That said, he plays very well for Canada and I'd argue that the level of his CMNT mates aren't too much better than our TFC players...

bigtfcfan
04-17-2010, 10:06 PM
That is a good point. Great players make the players around them that much better......is it possible though that he is used to such a high level in La Liga that the adjustment is just going to be that much tougher for him? That said, he plays very well for Canada and I'd argue that the level of his CMNT mates aren't too much better than our TFC players...

LOL the quality of his CMNT mates ARE higher than our TFC players!

superstar1976
04-17-2010, 10:08 PM
LOL, yes, it is higher, just not sure how much higher.....not exactly world beaters either, lol.

koryo
04-17-2010, 10:29 PM
Point of the matter is this: a good player makes the players around him perform well. If that means that he has to, shall we say, tailor his game to his team (now then, this must be an important mix of making them look good but challenging them to be better) then so be it.

That's what a good player can do.

Can JDG adapt?

kitchener-TFC
04-17-2010, 10:49 PM
JDG or DERO? Both!
Close this thread please :).

Daveisonfire
04-17-2010, 10:51 PM
Apples or oranges?

:)

denime
04-17-2010, 11:06 PM
JDG need some time to adopt on MLS style.



After years of playing in France, Germany and most recently Spain, de Guzman said the biggest transition to the Major League Soccer game is its shortage of tactics. While in Europe the focus is on ball possession and a more methodical attack up the field as every player knows where he should be and what his teammates are doing, in North America he said it’s more “back and forth and wild and hectic.”



“In Europe, it’s their culture to sit there and talk day in and day out about football tactics,” he said. “Here you don’t see that. You’ll watch a video with your team but it’s not part of the culture.


“It’s something that I’m going to have to eventually adapt to but at the same time I’m going to work with my players and pass on things that I was taught over there that can make us all better.”
TFC’s de Guzman experiencing soccer ‘culture shock’ (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/795437--tfc-s-de-guzman-experiencing-soccer-culture-shock)

ballerz
04-18-2010, 01:40 AM
Over the course of the season, I truly believe JDG will show his worth. He is too good of a player to be mediocre in MLS. Technically, you can tell he is much more gifted than the average MLS player - first touch, movement off the ball, passing accuracy, etc.

The problem with most of you is that you associate good players with goal scoring or long runs, which DeRo does on a regular basis. Some of you don't appreciate many parts of the game in the midfield, which JDG excels at. If you do not have a trained eye at football, you do not see the value of how JDG can switch the ball out wide a split second faster than say, Amadou Sanyang.

One thing I noticed when I watch DeRo live is that he sulks a lot. He always call for the ball but doesn't show for his teammates. He won't chase down balls that skipped too far ahead of him. He always gets called for offsides due to lack of focus or laziness. And he dribbles himself into trouble when the simple pass was there to be made.

In conclusion, JDG is derservingly worth much more than DeRo.

ballerz
04-18-2010, 01:49 AM
LOL, yes, it is higher, just not sure how much higher.....not exactly world beaters either, lol.

I would have to say a lot higher! How much better are:

Klukowski vs Hscanovic?
Edgar/McKenna vs Cann/Nana?
Stalteri vs Usanov?
Hutchison vs Labrocca/Sanyang?
Friend vs White/Barrett?
Hume/Peters/Radz vs out of position central midfielders with no pace?

The CMNT is filled with players who plays at least 2nd division English or German football, or 1st division smaller European football. Not to mention the CMNT have players who fill all the roles a football team should have.

Not only does his TFC teammate sucks, he also met them about 6 weeks ago.

king dave
04-18-2010, 02:07 AM
JDG will be gone by July.
He has attitude and Preki doesn't do attitude.
KD.

sweetlemon69
04-18-2010, 06:50 AM
JDG or DERO? Both!
Close this thread please :).

This.

torontocelt
04-18-2010, 08:09 AM
ballerz

Over the course of the season, I truly believe JDG will show his worth. He is too good of a player to be mediocre in MLS. Technically, you can tell he is much more gifted than the average MLS player - first touch, movement off the ball, passing accuracy, etc.

1) Agreed

The problem with most of you is that you associate good players with goal scoring or long runs, which DeRo does on a regular basis. Some of you don't appreciate many parts of the game in the midfield, which JDG excels at. If you do not have a trained eye at football, you do not see the value of how JDG can switch the ball out wide a split second faster than say, Amadou Sanyang.

2) That is a bit of a slap in the face to many of the RPB posters here. We all know that JDG is a defensive midfielder whose job is to protect the defence, break up attacks and play the sensible, ball retaining pass. I would think that is how 90% of the people on these boards judge JDG, I certainly haven't heard many people complain that he doesn't score many goals or going on mazey runs as people understand that that is not his role in the team. You dont not need a trained eye to see JDG is a superior player to Sanyang, Sanyang is 18 years old who has started something like 10 professional matches in his life time. For what he is he is fine but he is a big time rookie. JDG is a veteran of the game who has played in the Germany and Spain against some of the best in the world plus he has more than 40 international caps. JDG should stand out like a sore thumb when compared with Sanyang.

One thing I noticed when I watch DeRo live is that he sulks a lot. He always call for the ball but doesn't show for his teammates. He won't chase down balls that skipped too far ahead of him. He always gets called for offsides due to lack of focus or laziness. And he dribbles himself into trouble when the simple pass was there to be made.

3) I have definitely seen DeRo chase down balls, he works pretty hard out on the pitch. Out of any player I have seen for TFC he is the only one who I see regularly take the game by the scruff of the neck and do something for us to score and or win. A lazy player would not do that. A lazy player drifts into the back ground when things dont go their way, they certainly dont change games. There are exceptions to that rule of course, out and out poachers might not do much for 90 mins and they will pop up and score a goal but DeRo is not an out and out poacher, he is an attacking midfielder. Some attacking midfielders can get away with it if they are sublimely talented and have great vision, DeRo isn't either which makes me realise that there is a lot of hard work on his part to go with the skill he has that helps make him as effective as he is.

With regards to being called offside, well it is difficult to complain about his attacking skills when he is by far the biggest goal threat and the only reliable source of goals we have. Some of the greatest players in the world get called offside many times a game. Flippo Inzgahi is offside all the time and so was Andy Cole but it didn't matter because they were big time goal scorers and the plus weighed out the negative that they would drift offside. With regards to the offside rule, it is a two way street. If DeRo is running offside it wont always be his fault, it could also be the fault of the passer who is simply taking too long to pass. I would imagine that DeRo has a certain idea of when to expect the ball based on his level of football skill, the problem being is that his team mates are by and large not on the same level so the pass will be delayed. A lot of football is instinct and attempting to read what is going to happen and making your run before the guy passing the ball to you even has it. This reading of the game is what can give a player the edge over others, the only problem is if the guys on the same team are not as quick thinking. In short he may drift offside but he does score a bucket load of goals and if he is called for offside it wont always be his fault, it can also be the fault of his teammates who are making the pass.

And he dribbles himself into trouble when the simple pass was there to be made.

4) You can say the same thing about JDG. I think at times both players get caught on the ball simply because the movement around them is not great. Again, JDG will probably be looking to pass to certain areas that make sense to him based on his skill level. Unfortunately his team mates may bot be on the same level as him so they will not be where JDG is expecting them to be. The same goes for DeRo. The movement on the team is at time pathetic. Do I blame DeRo for sometimes being greedy? Hell no! I see some of our guys get the ball and f#ck it up regularly. If you were a good player it would frustrate the crap out of you that you have worked hard only to give the ball to a team mate who cannot be relied upon. TFC has many players who are just not that great. I am pretty sure that JDG is probably feeling the same level of frustration as DeRo is now.

In conclusion, JDG is derservingly worth much more than DeRo.

5) How you have come up with this conclusion I have no idea? Are you basing it on his previous exploits abroad and the leagues he has played in previously? If so then I would agree, he has played at the higher level. Are you basing this on his output for TFC, ie are you implying that he is the most important player for TFC? If you are saying that then I do not agree at all with that statement. DeRo is the game decider for us, when he doesn't play it is way more harder for TFC to win. With regards to JDG he is a good player still trying to find his way in the team, he has only played about 10 games and it will take time for him to adjust. There is no way he has showed that his output is superior to DeRo's. How many MOM perfomances has JDG had for TFC so far, how many games has he played in where his performance has been greater than his teammates? Since JDG signed for the club we conceded 10 goals in 5 games last season and 7 goals in 3 games so far this season. In total that would be 17 goals in 8 games. That is a lot of goals for a team to concede when they have a DP who is a defensive midfielder who's job is to help cover his defence. Now I am not saying it is all his fault but his job is to help us stop conceding goals and instead we are losing a lot. Can you really say that his output is greater than DeRo's?

TFCtoMUFC
04-18-2010, 08:13 AM
JDG will be gone by July.
He has attitude and Preki doesn't do attitude.
KD.

I can see this happening. If this is in the works and they get rid of Cronin, we can confirm retards run the team.

ManUtd4ever
04-18-2010, 08:25 AM
With all due respect Superstar, I'm not sure of the purpose of this thread. Why do we need to compare the relative worth of two players that serve completely different purposes and are in fact complimentary to one another on the pitch? JDG is a defensive, creative midfielder that relies on DeRo to finish the offensive sequences that he creates. Similarily, DeRo is more effective with a player like JDG in the central midfield to find the seams and distribute the ball to him. Every playmaker needs a finisher to be effective and vice versa...

superstar1976
04-18-2010, 10:17 AM
With all due respect Superstar, I'm not sure of the purpose of this thread. Why do we need to compare the relative worth of two players that serve completely different purposes and are in fact complimentary to one another on the pitch? JDG is a defensive, creative midfielder that relies on DeRo to finish the offensive sequences that he creates. Similarily, DeRo is more effective with a player like JDG in the central midfield to find the seams and distribute the ball to him. Every playmaker needs a finisher to be effective and vice versa...

No worries ManUtd. The purpose is to start a discussion, which is what these forums are for! Yes, different players with different attributes, but I was comparing their worth to the team given one is a DP and one is not. Obviously then the discussion will take different directions as to why maybe JDG is struggling to make the impact many expected....but as others said, maybe its their expectations that are at fault as those who follow the game know he isn't going to score goals or make long dribbling runs but bring a quality that most are lacking.

tfc2007
04-18-2010, 10:28 AM
That is a good point. Great players make the players around them that much better......is it possible though that he is used to such a high level in La Liga that the adjustment is just going to be that much tougher for him? That said, he plays very well for Canada and I'd argue that the level of his CMNT mates aren't too much better than our TFC players...

When Becks came over he played fine.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-18-2010, 10:30 AM
JDG will be gone by July.
He has attitude and Preki doesn't do attitude.
KD.

Come on KD,

even Beckham had attitude when coming over...Schletto had some too...Its just par for the course when you are head and shoulders above...

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 10:31 AM
All I keep hearing is basically that JDG is toooo good for this league. That's basically the argument some people have for cutting him slack. That's quite the argument. I don't care if you are too good, too shit, too skinny, too fat, if you don't perform, we don't need you. Was Juan Pablo too good for this league when he first came? he's scored more goals since his arrival then anyone else in the league. How about Ljunberg? who supposedly had all these injuries and has played at a higher level against tougher opposition then JDG ever has. Is he too good for this league? Even Beckham had more impact on the field with LA then JDG has had to date.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-18-2010, 10:35 AM
Its two very different positions.

It shouldn't even be a question, The answer is BOTH!

close thread.

superstar1976
04-18-2010, 10:38 AM
When Becks came over he played fine.

True. I'd argue though that he is a different type of player too though, and that his impact usually on freekicks and delivering that final ball would make his impact more noticable that JDG even when he is fully engaged and settled. I must sound like I'm making excuses for him, and maybe I am, not intentionally though.

superstar1976
04-18-2010, 10:39 AM
Its two very different positions.

It shouldn't even be a question, The answer is BOTH!

close thread.

Measuring impact and worth to the team, they do not have to play the same position. Rather than close this thread, how about you don't post on it if you don't want to....:hump:

TFCREDNWHITE
04-18-2010, 10:41 AM
All I keep hearing is basically that JDG is toooo good for this league. That's basically the argument some people have for cutting him slack. That's quite the argument. I don't care if you are too good, too shit, too skinny, too fat, if you don't perform, we don't need you. Was Juan Pablo too good for this league when he first came? he's scored more goals since his arrival then anyone else in the league. How about Ljunberg? who supposedly had all these injuries and has played at a higher level against tougher opposition then JDG ever has. Is he too good for this league? Even Beckham had more impact on the field with LA then JDG has had to date.


All we keep hearing from you is how dirt JDG is, how garbage our coach is and how you could do a better job, all you ever do is armchair quarterback our club...all you ever do is kick our club in the teeth.

I think its fair to say that we ALL want to win...but you don't have to shit on Julian DeGuzman while wanting it.

Julian DeGuzman is NOT the problem! neither is Dwayne Derosario! BOTH of them are necessary additions to TFC, Canada and the sport. TFC is lacking in soooo many other positions, thats where you should focus your energy.

superstar1976
04-18-2010, 10:41 AM
All I keep hearing is basically that JDG is toooo good for this league. That's basically the argument some people have for cutting him slack. That's quite the argument. I don't care if you are too good, too shit, too skinny, too fat, if you don't perform, we don't need you. Was Juan Pablo too good for this league when he first came? he's scored more goals since his arrival then anyone else in the league. How about Ljunberg? who supposedly had all these injuries and has played at a higher level against tougher opposition then JDG ever has. Is he too good for this league? Even Beckham had more impact on the field with LA then JDG has had to date.

So again, maybe it comes back to expectations again. Were some people expecting JDG to score goals, or to be an attacking midfielder? His history has been a solid defensive midfielder who takes control of the midfield with solid distribution of the ball and great vision, but I am not sure that is what he is being asked to do and maybe he's putting too much pressure on himself to live up to the payday.

superstar1976
04-18-2010, 10:43 AM
All we keep hearing from you is how dirt JDG is, how garbage our coach is and how you could do a better job, all you ever do is armchair quarterback our club...all you ever do is kick our club in the teeth.

I think its fair to say that we ALL want to win...but you don't have to shit on Julian DeGuzman while wanting it.

Julian DeGuzman is NOT the problem! neither is Dwayne Derosario! BOTH of them are necessary additions to TFC, Canada and the sport. TFC is lacking in soooo many other positions, thats where you should focus your energy.

I would agree that both are necessary to the team if we are going to have success......and I think what we really need if we go for a second DP is a striker. That could solve a lot of problems and help TFC play higher up the field, making the defensive shortcomings much less noticable.

Beach_Red
04-18-2010, 10:50 AM
Come on KD,

even Beckham had attitude when coming over...Schletto had some too...Its just par for the course when you are head and shoulders above...


It's not JDG's attitude he's talking about, it's Preki's.

MLS changes every year. When teams start adding a second and third DP and finding more ways around the cap Preki's no-name style will likely fall further and further behind and the team with it.

Let's just hope we're not building a team to win MLS 2007.

superstar1976
04-18-2010, 10:55 AM
I would have to say a lot higher! How much better are:

Klukowski vs Hscanovic?
Edgar/McKenna vs Cann/Nana?
Stalteri vs Usanov?
Hutchison vs Labrocca/Sanyang?
Friend vs White/Barrett?
Hume/Peters/Radz vs out of position central midfielders with no pace?

The CMNT is filled with players who plays at least 2nd division English or German football, or 1st division smaller European football. Not to mention the CMNT have players who fill all the roles a football team should have.

Not only does his TFC teammate sucks, he also met them about 6 weeks ago.

Now, this does give perspective doesn't it. You are right, they are heads and shoulders above his teammates at TFC.

Carts
04-18-2010, 11:22 AM
That is a good point. Great players make the players around them that much better......is it possible though that he is used to such a high level in La Liga that the adjustment is just going to be that much tougher for him? That said, he plays very well for Canada and I'd argue that the level of his CMNT mates aren't too much better than our TFC players...

Beckham figured it out, and he came from better clubs than JDG is...

Yes, it did take Beckham time to fit in, get a feel for his teammates, and play his game accordingly...

But once that happened, Beckham made LA and the players around him better... Once Beckham got a feel for Donovan's pace & play, they click quite nicely...

JDG needs to play with the team he has - and stop getting pissed off when the guys around him don't play like his former teammates - because they're just not at that level...

I'm not saying its easy, but it must be done or this DP project will continue to be a waste...

Great players are great on great teams and great on sh*t teams...

Good players look great on great teams, and look ordinary on sh*t teams...

Right now, thus far, JDG has looked to be the 2nd option above...

Carts...

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 11:50 AM
All we keep hearing from you is how dirt JDG is, how garbage our coach is and how you could do a better job, all you ever do is armchair quarterback our club...all you ever do is kick our club in the teeth.

I think its fair to say that we ALL want to win...but you don't have to shit on Julian DeGuzman while wanting it.

Julian DeGuzman is NOT the problem! neither is Dwayne Derosario! BOTH of them are necessary additions to TFC, Canada and the sport. TFC is lacking in soooo many other positions, thats where you should focus your energy.

You forgot the fact I apparantly have a hard-on for Garcia :rolleyes:. I'm starting to think you have a hard-on for me. You don't like my opinion of where this team is going, I don't like cheerleaders. Let's just do ourselves a favor and stop quoting me therefore I won't have to quote you. There are alot of other people who have the same opinion as me, therefore, there are more people out there to troll.

Davenport
04-18-2010, 12:00 PM
De-Ro can create things out of nothing.....he's useful

JDG doesn't create a thing. His strength is winning the ball and giving it someone who can play, like he did with better players in Spain. That's not an option here so he's wasted. A poor choice for a DP.

mmmikey
04-18-2010, 12:08 PM
A word about beckham.. He is an extremely fit player even by top clubs standards.. It really helps him adapt quickly especially in mls

torontocelt
04-18-2010, 12:40 PM
Beckam and JDG should not even be mentioned in the same sentence never mind compared. Beckam has played at the very top level for a long time and is without doubt one of the best passers of the ball I have ever seen. Don't get me wrong his world wide fame is not reflective of his ability on the pitch but he was a fantastic player with a an incredible range of pin point passing, on top of that he had a great engine and was a winner through and through. He was so far above JDG it is crazy! Even now he is still a good player although he is aging.

T.O TILL I DIE
04-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Nick Garcia Is Better Then Both:d