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deltox
04-16-2010, 07:19 AM
when do i get to see JDG be a DP worthy player?


so far i havnt seen ANYTHING that makes him shine above anyone else on the team or any other team in the league. in fact.... last night was a disgrace.


i see him miss passes, get turned around multiple time...there was no hustle. its like he didnt even care out there. and this is the fucking DP!!

Maybe in La Liga he didnt have to try so hard....but here he is the "top guy" on the team. he doesnt show it.

Captain
04-16-2010, 07:29 AM
I agree with all that you said although in my opinion last night was the first time he showed up. I've never really been aware of him on the field but last night he seemed to be there in the play and made a positive contribution (not DP level but something).

ManUtd4ever
04-16-2010, 07:29 AM
I have been a critic as well but let's reserve judgment until he finds his niche on this team. I thought JDG was very effective in the second half last night and showed glimpses of his ability to read the play, distribute the ball, and create offensive sequences. JDG played his best game as a Red last night playing deep and I think he will build on that to become the player we have seen on the CMNT...

Toronto Gunner
04-16-2010, 07:32 AM
Your timing is funny. After the few games JDG played last year I was not very impressed, but after seeing him at last night's game all I could talk about was what a huge impact he had. Every time he had the ball, he attracted 2-3 union players instantly. Despite this, he was still able to pull off the best passes of the night. He was defensively strong, creative, and I think that JDG and DeRo were head and shoulders ahead of everybody else on that pitch (if only DeRo could stay onside...).

He was swarmed each time he touched the ball, but still managed to dance around the philly players like they were children. He was calm, cool, and made some brilliant passes through the midfield.

Up until last night's game, I might have agreed with you, but I am 100% behind JDG as our DP now.

deltox
04-16-2010, 07:36 AM
huge impact..... are you kidding me?

from my view he couldnt pass correctly, he was outpaced and generally looked lost.

how long until the "best player" on our team has to find his Niche on the team?

he should be able to come in (after nearly 3 months of preseason and some few games) and play well.

Toronto Gunner
04-16-2010, 07:39 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

ManUtd4ever
04-16-2010, 07:39 AM
huge impact..... are you kidding me?

from my view he couldnt pass correctly, he was outpaced and generally looked lost.

how long until the "best player" on our team has to find his Niche on the team?

he should be able to come in (after nearly 3 months of preseason and some few games) and play well.

He looked like that in New England. As for last night, notably in the second half, you must have been watching a different game than me...

KRO
04-16-2010, 07:40 AM
He was played totally out of position in the first half and hardly saw the ball. In the second half as time went on he started to take control of the midfield and we saw glimpses of the player he should be. Give him a few more games.

Oldtimer
04-16-2010, 07:40 AM
The biggest problem I see it is that JDG is used to playing with much better players than TFC -- he expects them to get passes that better players could get.

His weak point is on the defense, he sometimes does cheap giveaways. Offensively, however, he is strong, and an upgrade over Robbo (except that TFC players excepting DeRo don't always know what to do with his passes).

I think he's used to quite a different style of play from MLS. Give him time. If he can't adapt then we can consider him a bust a la Denilson.

Section 110
04-16-2010, 07:46 AM
The biggest problem I see it is that JDG is used to playing with much better players than TFC -- he expects them to get passes that better players could get.

His weak point is on the defense, he sometimes does cheap giveaways. Offensively, however, he is strong, and an upgrade over Robbo (except that TFC players excepting DeRo don't always know what to do with his passes).

I think he's used to quite a different style of play from MLS. Give him time. If he can't adapt then we can consider him a bust a la Denilson.


+1. He's got class but he's a quiet player and he will be of great benefit to us going forward, although I do agree that we have not seen his best (at least I hope we haven't). Mo signed him to DP money and I think we expect to see something flashy in return, which is not what JDG is.

Not to go off topic (but I will) when will there be a song for De Ro? (The Pinchers tune is kickin' but unsingable at the game). He is our best player hands down. He's our Charlie Hustle, and it's a crying shame that there is no song for our best player, a hometown boy, our captain. Sorry, I had to.

Stencils
04-16-2010, 07:48 AM
I have to agree with Deltox for the most part, though I don't think he was playing as poorly as that.

Of the times during the game that I held my head and wondered what was going on with the team, the majority of those times were a result of something JDG did or didn't do.

The biggest problem I see is follow through. He's used to the more strategic pace of the Euro leagues, said so himself, and in MLS you have to stay involved in the action. Once you pass the ball, you stay with the play. You move up. You don't abdicate responsibility to the guys you passed it to. And this isn't just a problem with JDG, who arguably has an excuse (not the style he's used to). Very few players on our team follow through.

profit89
04-16-2010, 08:11 AM
Your timing is funny. After the few games JDG played last year I was not very impressed, but after seeing him at last night's game all I could talk about was what a huge impact he had. Every time he had the ball, he attracted 2-3 union players instantly. Despite this, he was still able to pull off the best passes of the night. He was defensively strong, creative, and I think that JDG and DeRo were head and shoulders ahead of everybody else on that pitch (if only DeRo could stay onside...).

He was swarmed each time he touched the ball, but still managed to dance around the philly players like they were children. He was calm, cool, and made some brilliant passes through the midfield.

Up until last night's game, I might have agreed with you, but I am 100% behind JDG as our DP now.

I agree with Gunner here.

JDG took control in the second half. His adavnced technical abilities over the others was obvious.

Bluenose13
04-16-2010, 08:16 AM
I agree with Gunner here.

JDG took control in the second half. His adavnced technical abilities over the others was obvious.Agreed.....He was the best player on the park in the 2nd half & overall this was his best performance to date.

Stencils
04-16-2010, 08:16 AM
I agree with Gunner here.

JDG took control in the second half. His adavnced technical abilities over the others was obvious.

Arguably, whether this is true or not, where was he in the first half?

KRO
04-16-2010, 08:19 AM
Arguably, whether this is true or not, where was he in the first half?

Being played totally out of position.

profit89
04-16-2010, 08:19 AM
where was he in the first half?

He was in the advanced attacking role. In other words, out of position.

deltox
04-16-2010, 08:20 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

i cant agree to that

Section 117
04-16-2010, 08:20 AM
Arguably, whether this is true or not, where was he in the first half?

Where was the whole team the first half? I feel bad for him he is use to being surround by quality players and now not so much. He gives the proper ball and yet no one is in the right spot that has to be fustrating.

On several occasions he was wide open and the team failed to give him the ball, as much as I want to blame him some of the blame has to be on the team as he does get the ball as much as he should and it should always be on the ground not a high ball

Just my 2 cents

deltox
04-16-2010, 08:26 AM
ok..i will give him....what ...5 games? i wont make anymore negative comments until after the 5th game

sweetlemon69
04-16-2010, 08:26 AM
Unless you actually play the sport, you won't appreciate him. He's a true #6. I'm going to assume the same people who think he's crap think Xavi of Barcelona is crap too, or better yet, don't even know who he is! It takes a player like that to function as the backbone of the team.

Please read this article;

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2010/04/08/1869570/champions-league-analysis-the-importance-of-being-xavi-what

deltox
04-16-2010, 08:28 AM
ive played the sport.

ive played since i could walk.

bigtfcfan
04-16-2010, 08:28 AM
JDG is a great player! Preki just needs to play him in his natural position as a DM. I think he'll be most useful here. And we saw glimpses of this in the second half. If he continues to play his natural position he'll start to get more settled in and even get a few scoring opportunities himself. He's been moved around a lot lately.

Stencils
04-16-2010, 08:40 AM
Being played out of position is one thing, and I'll give in to that argument for sure. Being in the north end, watching his play during the second half probably didn't give me the best view of his performance.

But in the first half he gifted the ball to the opposition plenty of times where no amount of running onto the ball would have saved it. The positioning IS bad, no doubt about it. Players give up when they don't actually have the ball, but I expected to see a little more presence of mind on the pitch from JDG.

If he's used to better players on the pitch, he joined THIS team back near the end of last season, had a full off season, and a couple of league matches to get used to the quality of players that we DO have.

If we're going to be relying on JDG to lift the team, and there's no reason not to because yes he does have skill, then it's far more likely that he's going to have to play down to his teammates rather than expecting his teammates to play up to him. The latter will just end in frustration for everyone and an entire season of debates like this one :(

Anyway. Mostly I'm just nit picking I guess. I still have hope. Though, that doesn't hide the fact that the reason we won last night was because the Union keeper decided to help us out. Twice.

Wull
04-16-2010, 08:47 AM
Was wavering between impressive and frustrating for the whole game. Sometimes like for the sending off he's the player he should be. Other times I felt he could have put in a challenge or went for a 50/50 ball and he didn't bother trying. Didn't seem him play brilliantly or terribly last night and it may have been his best game in a jersey but that doesn't say much.

Mikey
04-16-2010, 08:52 AM
He was brought in partly due to the clamouring of Canadian soccer fans when he was "available" (read unable to get a gig anywhere else) .

I think people have unrealisitc expectations from a player who got dumped out of Europe. this is a bit like the Gerba expectations after he got dumped by MILTON KEYNES!

And no, I'm not saying DeGuzman is crap like Gerba..... just pointing out the fantasy football expectations of some of the forums experts.

mmmikey
04-16-2010, 08:55 AM
the first half was a tactically poor display. the formation was bad with little width.. and u could tell JDG was given a free role, however he found space constantly clogged up by saric/labrocca/sanyang getting in the way. 2nd half as we fielded a proper pair of strikers he really came into his own and had a tremendous affect on the game controlling the organization and tempo of the game. him and labrocca did a really good job, especially when peterson came in, and the team finally started using the width of the field to it's advantage. a 5 man midfield with no true wide players is not going to allow a player like JDG to come into his own.

as far as impact goes: guys MLS is TOTALLY different in style from la liga. it often takes top class players a year to get used to the premiership, and JDG is going through the same adjustment, especially since he has never played in this league before. the difference between MLS and la liga is tactically and physically huge.

i saw in teh 2nd half what i wanted: he was able to organize us into a cohesive unit for once. was a big fan of the formation we assumed once peterson came in.

mmmikey
04-16-2010, 08:57 AM
He was brought in partly due to the clamouring of Canadian soccer fans when he was "available" (read unable to get a gig anywhere else) .


u don't pay much attention do u? he was blackballed for having the audacity to want to get paid on time and spoke out about it.. afterwards he wasn't willing to take the smaller cheque that other good european clubs were offering. he had plenty of offers, but a big pay cheque in toronto wasn't something to turn down. no he wasn't being chased by the top 4 type clubs, but that is NOT the same as being dumped out of europe.

Beach_Red
04-16-2010, 09:20 AM
The biggest problem I see it is that JDG is used to playing with much better players than TFC -- he expects them to get passes that better players could get.




Okay, so now we can get two more DPs.

What's stopping us?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-16-2010, 09:22 AM
when do i get to see JDG be a DP worthy player?


so far i havnt seen ANYTHING that makes him shine above anyone else on the team or any other team in the league. in fact.... last night was a disgrace.


i see him miss passes, get turned around multiple time...there was no hustle. its like he didnt even care out there. and this is the fucking DP!!

Maybe in La Liga he didnt have to try so hard....but here he is the "top guy" on the team. he doesnt show it.


Wow Deltox, .... never expected a post like this from you. I believe you know way more about the game from a skill, tactical and positional sense then your post lets on.....

Julian is a "little" slice of awesome to watch at BMO. if we could have another 6 DeGuzman's we would be laughing all the way to the MLS Cup and Supporters Sheild.

Just watch how Julian closes passing lanes down, how he stands tall when under pressure, how he can create his own passing lanes, how quick he can draw 2/3 opponents, how he can slice and dice away from those 2/3 opponents, his speed from a dead ball position...the list goes on and on with all the impacts he has on the games he plays....

remember football is played with 11 people, Julian cannot do every single thing at every single position.......I mean the guy is human after all.....

and yes, with regard to another post, he does hold tremendous value to this club and country, just like Xavi holds for his own respective club and country.

habstfc
04-16-2010, 09:23 AM
Some of you guys must be drunk when you come in here and post. JDG was easily our best player last night outside of Dero especially in the 2nd half, I don't know what game you guys were watching. He was totally ineffective in the first half but from my view in the north stands (which are totally amazing by the way, much better than the south stands) it looked like he was playing in a striker position. In the 2nd half, back in his natural position he controlled the mid field from what I could see. For any of you guys thinking he's coming to mls to score goals, lose that fantasy, that's not his game.

bigtfcfan
04-16-2010, 09:28 AM
Some of you guys must be drunk when you come in here and post. JDG was easily our best player last night outside of Dero especially in the 2nd half, I don't know what game you guys were watching. He was totally ineffective in the first half but from my view in the north stands (which are totally amazing by the way, much better than the south stands) it looked like he was playing in a striker position. In the 2nd half, back in his natural position he controlled the mid field from what I could see. For any of you guys thinking he's coming to mls to score goals, lose that fantasy, that's not his game.

Exactly!

reggie
04-16-2010, 09:29 AM
playing up front with dero in the 1st half.WTF..is pricky on crack.
that was the worst soccer display ive ever seen,ive seen better soccer in my local park.
sarnic was brutal,a beer league player...really fucking lucky to get the win last night.
AND MO MUST STILL GO!!!!

TFCREDNWHITE
04-16-2010, 09:31 AM
Some of you guys must be drunk when you come in here and post. JDG was easily our best player last night outside of Dero especially in the 2nd half, I don't know what game you guys were watching. He was totally ineffective in the first half but from my view in the north stands (which are totally amazing by the way, much better than the south stands) it looked like he was playing in a striker position. In the 2nd half, back in his natural position he controlled the mid field from what I could see. For any of you guys thinking he's coming to mls to score goals, lose that fantasy, that's not his game.


Agreed +2!

Oblio2
04-16-2010, 09:33 AM
I just don't see why people think he's so good.
He's a lazy player, which many commented on last night during the game in the game thread.
The problem I have, is that we have this guy as our DP and are paying a lot of money for him.
Poeple complained that we were paying Robbo 300k a year and that was a lot...well, we are paying through the nose for this kid and I can't see why. I haven't since the last few games of last season and haven't for the first 4 of this season.
We are asked to give him time....How long? Till we are out of contention? next year?

I would speculate that he isn't that good, could blend in a little more at Deportivo but here, being the main man he cannot hide.
I feel he's been found out already.
I would also suggest that if he wasn't Canadian, many more of you would be all over him...

Just my opinion and you can disagree all you want but I am not impressed and that number of people who agree with me grows each week.

Carefree
04-16-2010, 09:40 AM
The biggest problem I see it is that JDG is used to playing with much better players than TFC -- he expects them to get passes that better players could get.

His weak point is on the defense, he sometimes does cheap giveaways. Offensively, however, he is strong, and an upgrade over Robbo (except that TFC players excepting DeRo don't always know what to do with his passes).

I think he's used to quite a different style of play from MLS. Give him time. If he can't adapt then we can consider him a bust a la Denilson.
That's the excuse I was hearing last year, and even then I only half believed it. But last night most of his passes were going straight at opposing players, and he was getting beaten in one-on-one battles more often than not. He even tripped on the ball once as he was trying to dribble past a player. Also, and most disconcerting, he didn't seem to want to try that hard a lot of the time, letting a lot of passes go and not going for what could be easy interceptions.

The points made by TFCREDNWHITE above may all be valid, but in a team like TFC and a league like MLS I don't think these qualities are worth much. Moving into position to create a passing lane is nice, but if you don't execute that pass properly you haven't gained much.

So far I agree with what Deltox wrote, and I haven't seen much from JDG to justify the money we're paying him.

Carts
04-16-2010, 09:41 AM
We won, lets be happy...

But lets be honest, JDG is overrated...

Canadian fans think he's way better than he is...

That being said - we won, be happy...!!!

Carts...

flambe
04-16-2010, 09:48 AM
Okay, so now we can get two more DPs.

What's stopping us?

I believe the $400k against our already depleted cap would be a good reason. But hey, we have Garcia sitting on the bench @ $150k+ so that's good.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-16-2010, 10:14 AM
Garcia is being paid for by San Jose

Gazza
04-16-2010, 10:17 AM
Imagine Wilson playing Kessel on defense, and then getting upset because he can't defend. It's the same thing with Julian. He's a really good holding midfielder, that's where we should play him.

He looked lost in the first half, did very well in the second to calm things down a bit.

MartinUtd
04-16-2010, 10:19 AM
The biggest problem I see it is that JDG is used to playing with much better players than TFC -- he expects them to get passes that better players could get.

His weak point is on the defense, he sometimes does cheap giveaways. Offensively, however, he is strong, and an upgrade over Robbo (except that TFC players excepting DeRo don't always know what to do with his passes).

I think he's used to quite a different style of play from MLS. Give him time. If he can't adapt then we can consider him a bust a la Denilson.

I have to agree. With regards to missing passes, that's usually because he's passing into open space where he expects a red shirt to pick it up. Laurent Robert had the same problem (among others).

fetajr
04-16-2010, 10:25 AM
I thought JDG was one of the best players out there last night.

When he had the ball, there was little forward movement from our own players, they were basically just standing around waiting for a pass. The forwards made good attempts to make runs and JDG got Barrett the ball on a couple of those.

What I saw was JDG yelling, bitching, and trying to motivate his players where to move with or without the ball... that shows me that he cares, has heart, and is interested in being a worthy DP....it also shows me that there are more than a few players who can't keep up with JDG's football IQ and skill.

Beach_Red
04-16-2010, 10:30 AM
I believe the $400k against our already depleted cap would be a good reason. But hey, we have Garcia sitting on the bench @ $150k+ so that's good.


New York, LA, Seattle - they have the same salary cap issues but they're going to bring in more DPs - it's just not a good enough excuse anymore.

Broadview
04-16-2010, 10:30 AM
We won, lets be happy...

But lets be honest, JDG is overrated...

Canadian fans think he's way better than he is...

That being said - we won, be happy...!!!

Carts...

I know Carts, the thing with us is that we have to figure out whose fault it is we won.

You have to admit Julian deserves some of the blame, but certainly not all of the blame.

bdiddy
04-16-2010, 10:30 AM
I found in the second half - he was controlling the ball.

When you have basically 11 brand new guys playing on a team together and your asking your DP to be a holding/distributing mid-fielder to people he's not sure where/when they are going to go. It's not the easiest situation for any one player to slip into.

It would be easier if he was going into a team with a system and he was 1 player of the change.

But that being said - in the second half of the game - you could see he was demanding the ball more - getting involved in the play more and his distribution was much better.

His cross to Barrett (who blindly missed the target again) was dead on!

Even with this second half performance - we should expect more from DeGuzman - but he wasn't horrible like some people are saying.

DichioTFC
04-16-2010, 10:31 AM
in the first half JDG was being played as a striker, which as others mentioned, isn't his natural position. in the second half JDG was very much a part of the team success. people who view JDG as a failure need to look a bit closer at his technique, his position off the ball, how he gets open for his teammates that have the ball, the fact that most of the time he operates when double covered (and he usually is still able to get the pass off).

i agree with most people who say that he expects his teammates to get his passes, but when you play with elite players for your entire career and suddenly your teammates are not on par, theres a learning curve. i think he realizes this and is finding his niche on the field.

JonO
04-16-2010, 10:36 AM
We're still a very new squad. Of all the positions on the pitch, I'd argue that his relies on his knowledge of his teammates the most. I was happy with his performance last night.

Pachuco
04-16-2010, 10:38 AM
Unless you actually play the sport, you won't appreciate him. He's a true #6. I'm going to assume the same people who think he's crap think Xavi of Barcelona is crap too, or better yet, don't even know who he is! It takes a player like that to function as the backbone of the team.

Please read this article;

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2010/04/08/1869570/champions-league-analysis-the-importance-of-being-xavi-what

What in the world are you talking about? I've played my whole life, and guess what, still don't appreciate his contributions to the team. Oh, and I DO appreciate Shalrie Joseph's on NE when he's played in a similar role. Oh and the impact Xavi has on Barcelona is not even close to the impact JDG has on TFC.

Last night he was bad at times, but had some good moments. Personally, he gave the ball away, he was beaten a few times 1 on 1, and he was at fault for 1 of Dero's offsides, where he hung on to the ball way too long. Then he made some good passess and started hussling more in the second half.

All in all, he was just OK. For a DP, that ain't accetible.

Shaughno
04-16-2010, 10:39 AM
We're still a very new squad. Of all the positions on the pitch, I'd argue that his relies on his knowledge of his teammates the most. I was happy with his performance last night.


A lot of arm chair managers on this board, not many who actually understand all aspects of the game. ;)

Agreed though, and from the looks of the first half in Boston, and now last night... I'm actually glad that we're seeing Preki's influence out on the pitch. Hard working, hard tackling, never give up attitude. I like it.

Shaughno
04-16-2010, 10:41 AM
What in the world are you talking about? I've played my whole life, and guess what, still don't appreciate his contributions to the team. Oh, and I DO appreciate Shalrie Joseph's on NE when he's played in a similar role. Oh and the impact Xavi has on Barcelona is not even close to the impact JDG has on TFC.

Last night he was bad at times, but had some good moments. Personally, he gave the ball away, he was beaten a few times 1 on 1, and he was at fault for 1 of Dero's offsides, where he hung on to the ball way too long. Then he made some good passess and started hussling more in the second half.

All in all, he was just OK. For a DP, that ain't accetible.

Pretty much agreed, but in this league I think he's trying to be too flashy instead of making the quick/easy pass when he has it.

Second half he looked better, still a shadow of his old self though.

FluSH
04-16-2010, 10:43 AM
If you check the archives... I was one of the few who did not want JDG here in Toronto (for many reasons).

However, yesterday he played on of his best games in red... He was part of every crucial game changer... got us the red card... got DeRo the Free Kick... and was poised to take the rebound quite well but the weak shoot leaked through. He also gave Barrett an unbelivable cross which should have decided the game... that header was a freebie...

TFCREDNWHITE
04-16-2010, 10:48 AM
I thought JDG was one of the best players out there last night.

When he had the ball, there was little forward movement from our own players, they were basically just standing around waiting for a pass. The forwards made good attempts to make runs and JDG got Barrett the ball on a couple of those.

What I saw was JDG yelling, bitching, and trying to motivate his players where to move with or without the ball... that shows me that he cares, has heart, and is interested in being a worthy DP....it also shows me that there are more than a few players who can't keep up with JDG's football IQ and skill.


So True! :)

Yohan
04-16-2010, 11:34 AM
Not to go off topic (but I will) when will there be a song for De Ro? (The Pinchers tune is kickin' but unsingable at the game). He is our best player hands down. He's our Charlie Hustle, and it's a crying shame that there is no song for our best player, a hometown boy, our captain. Sorry, I had to.
there was a boy from Scarborough
and DeRo was his name, oh

De-Ro-Sario! De-Ro-Sario! De-Ro-Sario!
And DeRo was his name, oh

Roogsy
04-16-2010, 11:35 AM
I have been a critic as well but let's reserve judgment until he finds his niche on this team. I thought JDG was very effective in the second half last night and showed glimpses of his ability to read the play, distribute the ball, and create offensive sequences. JDG played his best game as a Red last night playing deep and I think he will build on that to become the player we have seen on the CMNT...

When exactly will that be? With all the turnover on this team, I can understand the difficulty in gelling with players, but at the same time, he isn't getting paid $100k like everyone else! If you're gonna get paid the kind of money you demand, you need to produce without excuses. That's the way it is in my world. Otherwise, don't ask for that kind of money.

trane
04-16-2010, 01:59 PM
I thought JDG had one of his better games, and he seemed to be playing like an AM, just behind De Ro. Remeber I am at the North End, so I saw him more durring the first half.

profit89
04-16-2010, 02:08 PM
What I saw was JDG yelling, bitching, and trying to motivate his players where to move with or without the ball... that shows me that he cares, has heart, and is interested in being a worthy DP....it also shows me that there are more than a few players who can't keep up with JDG's football IQ and skill.

Here, here !!

ag futbol
04-16-2010, 02:09 PM
First half - JDG played as a AM, the second most advanced player on the field = epic fail
2nd half - JDG plays in his natural position in front of the back four. Sprays the ball around and helps us build our attack forward = win

I don't think for a second he's worth the DP slot, but he's a good HOLDING MID. Play him in his damn natural spot, if management keep moving him up the field they are as delusional as some of the people on this board.

Now if we actually had more than one other mid that was useful going forward (Labrocca excluded) he could spray the ball all over the place and we'd look great. Too many guys who are slow(physically and mentally), lead footed, no creativity, makes for our putrid attack.

And i know this is coming up every fourth post, but Saric is fucking terrible. How can you pick up someone so bad?

Rudi
04-16-2010, 02:13 PM
Maybe in La Liga he didnt have to try so hard....
:picard:

Oldtimer
04-16-2010, 02:17 PM
That's the excuse I was hearing last year, and even then I only half believed it. But last night most of his passes were going straight at opposing players, and he was getting beaten in one-on-one battles more often than not. He even tripped on the ball once as he was trying to dribble past a player.

Haven't watched a lot of Spanish football, have you?


I have to agree. With regards to missing passes, that's usually because he's passing into open space where he expects a red shirt to pick it up. Laurent Robert had the same problem (among others).

aha! Martin sees what I saw. He wasn't passing it to opposing players, he was passing it into space. (Too bad most of our players have too poor football IQ to actually get the ball).



However, yesterday he played on of his best games in red... He was part of every crucial game changer... got us the red card... got DeRo the Free Kick... and was poised to take the rebound quite well but the weak shoot leaked through. He also gave Barrett an unbelivable cross which should have decided the game... that header was a freebie...

FluSH was watching the game quite closely.

Yes, he sometimes made defensive errors. But most of the issue is the style of play, and the lack of football IQ in most MLS-quality players (DeRo is an exception). He must be terribly frustrated.

trane
04-16-2010, 02:17 PM
First half - JDG played as a AM, the second most advanced player on the field = epic fail
2nd half - JDG plays in his natural position in front of the back four. Sprays the ball around and helps us build our attack forward = win

I don't think for a second he's worth the DP slot, but he's a good HOLDING MID. Play him in his damn natural spot, if management keep moving him up the field they are as delusional as some of the people on this board.

Now if we actually had more than one other mid that was useful going forward (Labrocca excluded) he could spray the ball all over the place and we'd look great. Too many guys who are slow(physically and mentally), lead footed, no creativity, makes for our putrid attack.

And i know this is coming up every fourth post, but Saric is fucking terrible. How can you pick up someone so bad?

I am harsh, but how can you know someone is so bad after one game? Seriously.

AS for him at AM, I thought he was good, again I am in the north end and I saw much of his play there. The first goal was due to his hustle. There was a problem in that both him and De Ro, althought taller are not tall/big enough for some of the lobbing crosses.

TFCRegina
04-16-2010, 02:21 PM
aha! Martin sees what I saw. He wasn't passing it to opposing players, he was passing it into space. (Too bad most of our players have too poor football IQ to actually get the ball).


That's exactly the problem. He'll get the ball, turn, pass it instinctively, and no TFC players show up to the ball, and he's standing there looking like a fool.

He's a man playing a boys game.

trane
04-16-2010, 02:24 PM
^ Agreed. BUT I think the present club is an upgrade in footy IQ, over the first two weeks.

Pachuco
04-16-2010, 02:26 PM
I am harsh, but how can you know someone is so bad after one game? Seriously.

AS for him at AM, I thought he was good, again I am in the north end and I saw much of his play there. The first goal was due to his hustle. There was a problem in that both him and De Ro, althought taller are not tall/big enough for some of the lobbing crosses.

There is nobody you could be referring to that has played one game with this team. I think you're talking about Saric and I've personaly seen him play 4 games with TFC already and other people have seen more.

trane
04-16-2010, 02:32 PM
^ You thought he was that bad in the other games? peronaly I did not notice him in one way or the other. Yesterday he was not impressive but in the other games the team was not impressive. I am not saying he does not suck, maybe he does, but as much as I am willing to complain, when it come to indivudal play I like to give it more time.

[ again I am not trying to be an ass- i am trying to understand were you are comming from-what you are seeing that I am not]

Stencils
04-16-2010, 02:43 PM
I think we can probably all agree (maybe?) that JDG should NEVER be played that far up the field again. I've watched some of the highlights again and agree that he was FAR more impressive in the second half situated further back in a DM role.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-16-2010, 02:43 PM
im at this point happy with Saric costing little (if that is his cost) and coming off the bench, theres been nothing to suggest hes total crap but hes definitely not incredible

Pachuco
04-16-2010, 02:44 PM
^ You thought he was that bad in the other games? peronaly I did not notice him in one way or the other. Yesterday he was not impressive but in the other games the team was not impressive. I am not saying he does not suck, maybe he does, but as much as I am willing to complain, when it come to indivudal play I like to give it more time.

[ again I am not trying to be an ass- i am trying to understand were you are comming from-what you are seeing that I am not]

I know you're not trying to be an ass, this is just a conversation as I see it. All I've seen from Saric in 4 games is that he can't tackle and he gives the ball away cheaply at midfield. I still remember him giving the ball up to Columbus every time he touched the ball. He's not a defensive midfielder but yet has no vision for passing the ball so I'm not sure where he fits in. Just because the team sucked the other two games doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on Saric. If you think he's somewhat invisible then that isn't a good thing is it?

Stencils
04-16-2010, 02:50 PM
If you check the archives... I was one of the few who did not want JDG here in Toronto (for many reasons).

However, yesterday he played on of his best games in red... He was part of every crucial game changer... got us the red card... got DeRo the Free Kick... and was poised to take the rebound quite well but the weak shoot leaked through. He also gave Barrett an unbelivable cross which should have decided the game... that header was a freebie...

I gotta say, FluSH, that incident with the red card had nothing to do with JDG. It was ALL stupidity on Califf's part. There's no way JDG would have made it to that backpass. JDG was making the run, sure, but Barrett does that all the time too. Califf just happened to be present to make an ass of himself.

Jeff s
04-16-2010, 03:05 PM
I just don't see why people think he's so good.
He's a lazy player,

wow, lazy? Really?

Hes on of the more hard working players on this team.

Second half he played really well. He will show his worth. This guy can get out of tight spaces better than anybody on this team. Creates room for himself and create chances.

trane
04-16-2010, 03:08 PM
I know you're not trying to be an ass, this is just a conversation as I see it. All I've seen from Saric in 4 games is that he can't tackle and he gives the ball away cheaply at midfield. I still remember him giving the ball up to Columbus every time he touched the ball. He's not a defensive midfielder but yet has no vision for passing the ball so I'm not sure where he fits in. Just because the team sucked the other two games doesn't mean you can't have an opinion on Saric. If you think he's somewhat invisible then that isn't a good thing is it?

To be honest due to work I have either heard or streamed most of the away games. The pre-season games eveyone seemed horrible to me. You may be right, I will try to watch him on saturday.

trane
04-16-2010, 03:12 PM
I gotta say, FluSH, that incident with the red card had nothing to do with JDG. It was ALL stupidity on Califf's part. There's no way JDG would have made it to that backpass. JDG was making the run, sure, but Barrett does that all the time too. Califf just happened to be present to make an ass of himself.

Yeah, but that is part of the game, a part of the style of football preki is trying to play you pressure them into mistakes. JDG pressure them into a mistake, he has to get some credit for that, it was not an accident.

Rudi
04-16-2010, 03:17 PM
wow, lazy? Really?

Hes on of the more hard working players on this team.
I remember seeing ProZone stats last year which showed he covered significantly more ground than anyone else on the pitch.

And that was when he was coming off a long stretch without playing any games.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-16-2010, 03:21 PM
I gotta say, FluSH, that incident with the red card had nothing to do with JDG. It was ALL stupidity on Califf's part. There's no way JDG would have made it to that backpass. JDG was making the run, sure, but Barrett does that all the time too. Califf just happened to be present to make an ass of himself.

that shits just basic tactics, charge and hope they screw up in one manner or another and in this case they seemingly did

Oldtimer
04-16-2010, 03:28 PM
that shits just basic tactics, charge and hope they screw up in one manner or another and in this case they seemingly did

You have to read your opponent well, and JDG did.

jazzy
04-16-2010, 04:09 PM
Your timing is funny. After the few games JDG played last year I was not very impressed, but after seeing him at last night's game all I could talk about was what a huge impact he had. Every time he had the ball, he attracted 2-3 union players instantly. Despite this, he was still able to pull off the best passes of the night. He was defensively strong, creative, and I think that JDG and DeRo were head and shoulders ahead of everybody else on that pitch (if only DeRo could stay onside...).

He was swarmed each time he touched the ball, but still managed to dance around the philly players like they were children. He was calm, cool, and made some brilliant passes through the midfield.

Up until last night's game, I might have agreed with you, but I am 100% behind JDG as our DP now.

+1

He's starting to show us his skills in handling/holding the ball...
.

ag futbol
04-16-2010, 04:12 PM
I am harsh, but how can you know someone is so bad after one game? Seriously.

AS for him at AM, I thought he was good, again I am in the north end and I saw much of his play there. The first goal was due to his hustle. There was a problem in that both him and De Ro, althought taller are not tall/big enough for some of the lobbing crosses.
You mean Saric? this isn't the first time he's come out looking quite below average. I don't expect him to have a masterful performance, but at least show some skill. It's not even clearly he has the ability to do anything but be just far enough behind the play to make stupid fouls in the defensive third.

If you mean JDG: I've seen enough of this JDG as an AM stuff to know that's not his forte. Everyone is going to think 2007 gold cup, but that's not how he plays. Even when we went up against Brazil he played as a holder, he just better at joining the attack as the holder than most.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-16-2010, 04:16 PM
he just better at joining the attack as the holder than most.

yep more box to box than the average DM

trane
04-16-2010, 04:16 PM
^ Saric, I reserve comment, he did not make an impact on me last night. I will give him a game of to.


As for JDG at AM, I prefer him as a CDM, a deeplying playmaker, but I did notthink that he was awfull last night. I mean lets face it the team won but it was not a spetacualr performance. We won becuase we did two things right, we played hard, and we kept our shape better then we have in the past. ( admitatly no hard to do) But reletavely speeking JDG did not look bad at AM all things considering. I had a pretty good vantage point, as sat in the north end as he played as AM. Again I am not advocating that he play there all the time.

Davenport
04-16-2010, 04:22 PM
Saric was the worst player on the pitch..and that's saying something.

JDG was lost as AM. What was Preki's thinking there ?
Second half he was much better in the holding role...where he should always be.

Stencils
04-16-2010, 08:25 PM
Yeah, but that is part of the game, a part of the style of football preki is trying to play you pressure them into mistakes. JDG pressure them into a mistake, he has to get some credit for that, it was not an accident.

I agree. It's not a mistake that he made the run. But I think singling that move out as evidence that JDG is a superior player doesn't fly.

He gets credit for doing it, but so should Barrett and White when they do the same thing and they don't draw a red card foul.

Maybe there's an argument that Califf only did that because he saw it was JDG. "Oh shit! DP running in, better take him down!" but that's a stretch for me. Califf has goon written all over him anyway, almost literally.

SilverSamurai
04-17-2010, 12:44 AM
Saric was the worst player on the pitch..and that's saying something.

JDG was lost as AM. What was Preki's thinking there ?
Second half he was much better in the holding role...where he should always be.
He plays a more advanced role for the CMNT, so that's my guess. Then again, he has Atiba to partner up with...

But when it comes to crunch time and a game of "keepaway" he's the guy I'd give the ball to.

Stryker
04-17-2010, 01:37 AM
Well regardless of what the reasoning behind it is he hasn't been all that effective a player for us. If his passing skills are so advanced that nobody on the team can read them perhaps we should have chosen somebody for a DP who's more likely to receive passes.
Like oh I don't know... a striker.

Shakes McQueen
04-17-2010, 01:41 AM
I gotta say, FluSH, that incident with the red card had nothing to do with JDG. It was ALL stupidity on Califf's part. There's no way JDG would have made it to that backpass. JDG was making the run, sure, but Barrett does that all the time too. Califf just happened to be present to make an ass of himself.

I still can't believe Califf did that. There was no tactical reason to try and get away with it, and it wasn't like the two of them were shoving or having words earlier in the game.

Yet, the elbow was clearly intentional. Mind boggling.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
04-17-2010, 01:47 AM
As for JDG, he looks out of sync with the team a lot of the time, I think because most of the time the rest of the team is out of sync with each other.

Every now and then I'll see him try to make an advanced run expecting a pass, or try to pull off a 1-2 pass with someone, only to look frustrated as the guy at the other end makes a mess of it. The sad reality is that most MLS players don't read the game well at all.

I suspect we have yet to see the best from JDG, as he gets acquainted with the many new players around him.

But yeah... we desperately need a quality striker up front. OBW looks okay, but him and Chad Barrett as our only two options up front? Come on.

- Scott

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-17-2010, 01:55 AM
As for JDG, he looks out of sync with the team a lot of the time, I think because most of the time the rest of the team is out of sync with each other.

Every now and then I'll see him try to make an advanced run expecting a pass, or try to pull off a 1-2 pass with someone, only to look frustrated as the guy at the other end makes a mess of it. The sad reality is that most MLS players don't read the game well at all.

I suspect we have yet to see the best from JDG, as he gets acquainted with the many new players around him.

But yeah... we desperately need a quality striker up front. OBW looks okay, but him and Chad Barrett as our only two options up front? Come on.

- Scott

People seem to be looking past this was alarming regularity. I watched the GOL TV game in a hour of the Philadelphia game and De Vos was praising Preki's bold half time substitutions. We started the game with no strikers on the field, then we put some on in the second half and the team played better. We've tried a half with no strikers, maybe Preki will try a half with no defenders next?

Pachuco
04-17-2010, 08:26 AM
People seem to be looking past this was alarming regularity. I watched the GOL TV game in a hour of the Philadelphia game and De Vos was praising Preki's bold half time substitutions. We started the game with no strikers on the field, then we put some on in the second half and the team played better. We've tried a half with no strikers, maybe Preki will try a half with no defenders next?

What's their to praise though? Preki went in with a game plan that failed misreably in the first half. Then he adjusted and it worked better BUT it was easy to adjust when the opposition has 10 men. If you ask me, Preki's strategies were atrocious on Thursday.

CretanBull
04-17-2010, 08:57 AM
^ I was shocked to see us play 4-5-1 at home vs. an expansion side. That's not a confident message to send to home supporters.

jloome
04-17-2010, 09:51 AM
Your timing is funny. After the few games JDG played last year I was not very impressed, but after seeing him at last night's game all I could talk about was what a huge impact he had. Every time he had the ball, he attracted 2-3 union players instantly. Despite this, he was still able to pull off the best passes of the night. He was defensively strong, creative, and I think that JDG and DeRo were head and shoulders ahead of everybody else on that pitch (if only DeRo could stay onside...).

He was swarmed each time he touched the ball, but still managed to dance around the philly players like they were children. He was calm, cool, and made some brilliant passes through the midfield.

Up until last night's game, I might have agreed with you, but I am 100% behind JDG as our DP now.

Yeah, he's easily our best player. If you don't see that, you can't read the flow of a game, as he'll control it several times over the course of a night.

Problematically, we need it to be the case for most of the night, and his teammates aren't up to speed a lot of the time. It's tough to see the guy perfectly track down and break up an offensive move, only to wheel to an open channel and have no runner.

jloome
04-17-2010, 09:53 AM
I just don't see why people think he's so good.
He's a lazy player, which many commented on last night during the game in the game thread.
The problem I have, is that we have this guy as our DP and are paying a lot of money for him.
Poeple complained that we were paying Robbo 300k a year and that was a lot...well, we are paying through the nose for this kid and I can't see why. I haven't since the last few games of last season and haven't for the first 4 of this season.
We are asked to give him time....How long? Till we are out of contention? next year?

I would speculate that he isn't that good, could blend in a little more at Deportivo but here, being the main man he cannot hide.
I feel he's been found out already.
I would also suggest that if he wasn't Canadian, many more of you would be all over him...

Just my opinion and you can disagree all you want but I am not impressed and that number of people who agree with me grows each week.

Yeah, I'll disagree with that. Lazy? Absolute nonsense.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-17-2010, 10:34 AM
Cant wait to see more of him as the season wears on and Preki keeps him in his proper position (a la 2nd half), theres going to be alot of red faced naysayers

boozilla
04-17-2010, 11:57 AM
Like most intelligent players JDG has a motivational 'ON' switch. He doesn't seem interested at times, but as midfield chemistry is still developing, he hasn't played to his potential. He needs some sustained clever interplay or a even better, a goal, to break out of his shell. I have full confidence.

Kilgore Trout
04-17-2010, 12:15 PM
Like most intelligent players JDG has a motivational 'ON' switch. He doesn't seem interested at times, but as midfield chemistry is still developing, he hasn't played to his potential. He needs some sustained clever interplay or a even better, a goal, to break out of his shell. I have full confidence.
yeah, and I think we saw that in the second half.

He was genuinely elated when DeRo scored the penalty, and was playing really hard, trying to get at anything he could, and also could have had both a goal and an assist with a bit of luck (his shot on goal and the cross to Barrett).

trane
04-17-2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, he's easily our best player. If you don't see that, you can't read the flow of a game, as he'll control it several times over the course of a night.

Problematically, we need it to be the case for most of the night, and his teammates aren't up to speed a lot of the time. It's tough to see the guy perfectly track down and break up an offensive move, only to wheel to an open channel and have no runner.

Agree 100%

James Oliphant
04-17-2010, 02:38 PM
^ I was shocked to see us play 4-5-1 at home vs. an expansion side. That's not a confident message to send to home supporters.

It just looked like a 4-5-1. Preki says in his post-game that they were trying to play a 4-3-3, but the wings weren't effective and started falling back more than they should have.

trane
04-17-2010, 02:44 PM
^ That suprises me, it looked nothing like a 4-3-3. I mean nothing. It looked like a 4-5-1, or a 4-4-1-1, with De Ro upfront and JDG just behind him. This kind of make me feel worse about our performance.

CretanBull
04-17-2010, 03:04 PM
It just looked like a 4-5-1. Preki says in his post-game that they were trying to play a 4-3-3, but the wings weren't effective and started falling back more than they should have.

:facepalm:


^ That suprises me, it looked nothing like a 4-3-3. I mean nothing. It looked like a 4-5-1, or a 4-4-1-1, with De Ro upfront and JDG just behind him. This kind of make me feel worse about our performance.

It's going to be a long year....

trane
04-17-2010, 03:10 PM
I should not be laughing but I cannot help it. I was thinkining at least we are getting our shape down, and then I find this out. hahahaha.

CretanBull
04-17-2010, 03:14 PM
I should not be laughing but I cannot help it. I was thinkining at least we are getting our shape down, and then I find this out. hahahaha.

Exactly! I don't know if I should laugh or cry, but I was totally ready to give them credit for holding their formation as a sign of improvement...as it turns out we were SO out of formation that everyone thought that they were playing a totally different one!

:o

trane
04-17-2010, 04:15 PM
^ That is the perfect smiley for the it. At least it looked like some kind of formation, you can understand how a 4-3-3 can look like a 4-5-1, if the outside forwards/wingers play to far back. A year ago it may have looked like no formation at all. [ I am looking for the positive]

Davenport
04-17-2010, 04:58 PM
Preki started the game with 4-4-1-1.
Second half when he realised it was the worst idea he's ever had, he turned it into 4-1-4-1

TFCREDNWHITE
04-17-2010, 05:12 PM
Yeah, he's easily our best player. If you don't see that, you can't read the flow of a game, as he'll control it several times over the course of a night.

Problematically, we need it to be the case for most of the night, and his teammates aren't up to speed a lot of the time. It's tough to see the guy perfectly track down and break up an offensive move, only to wheel to an open channel and have no runner.


Thank you Jloome, i agree 100%

backbeat
04-17-2010, 07:38 PM
Yeah, he's easily our best player. If you don't see that, you can't read the flow of a game, as he'll control it several times over the course of a night.

Problematically, we need it to be the case for most of the night, and his teammates aren't up to speed a lot of the time. It's tough to see the guy perfectly track down and break up an offensive move, only to wheel to an open channel and have no runner.

absolutely! he was nothing short of brilliant, especially in the 2nd half when he was in his proper position. glaringly shows we need someone up front who he can deliver to - his ball placement was fantastic to watch...

we still need, as we have needed for the past 3 year, a strong CB and striker......we dump on some players way too fast and i think Vitti was one of them. another year in MLS and i think he would have taken off - he certainly had the skill - all that was needed was a renegotiation of his contract.....

what i see with this team so far is little imagination and skill - happy, no thrilled, we won but man when you're playing an expansion team and one man up for 55-60 minutes and you win in the last 8 based on a questionable call - that's not inspiring in my mind - a few bright lights, JDG and Dero being a couple of them but all in all i was not impressed, boring to watch.

what i loved was the grass, the look with the new north end stands, and the supporters were loud - brilliant!!

Manutd #1
04-18-2010, 08:48 AM
Typical post of a Toronto fan(no matter the sport) last year to me is a write off he wasnt game fit and its hard to join a team in a playoff hunt with 8 games to go....this year he has had a full preseason but I think MLS is a big adjustment for him plus he is playing out of position....give him until abotu July and then lets judge him

Manutd #1
04-18-2010, 08:49 AM
Oh and on that note I do believe they should make dero a DP it would free up about 170k in cap money, and he has proven he deserves it

tfc2008
04-18-2010, 09:01 AM
Do we have a DP???
Wat we have is the worst team in al four years we play now, are first year we had a better team then now, and they have to stop to take Canadian players, try to fine good players players who know to play a soccer game and understand the game.

Oblio2
04-18-2010, 04:45 PM
I REALLY hope som eof you are reading the comments about JDG in the match thread for Colorado.

Ontario Arab
04-18-2010, 04:51 PM
We are Garbage.

Canadian Blue
04-18-2010, 07:07 PM
I said from the day we signed JDG that he would be a bust......I will I knew I to located archived posts to prove it. Too mnay people have rosed coloured galss thinking that he would be good since he is canadian and played in europe....

Remember he turned down TFC when he thought he was going to be playing in europe.....one the european season started and TFC still were willing to offer him 5 million he jumped all over it. He is here for the money, not for the team

Bluenose13
04-18-2010, 07:09 PM
I said from the day we signed JDG that he would be a bust......I will I knew I to located archived posts to prove it. Too mnay people have rosed coloured galss thinking that he would be good since he is canadian and played in europe....

Remember he turned down TFC when he thought he was going to be playing in europe.....one the european season started and TFC still were willing to offer him 5 million he jumped all over it. He is here for the money, not for the team
He is getting 900k this year & could have got that in many league's in Europe.

Davenport
04-18-2010, 07:15 PM
He is getting 900k this year & could have got that in many league's in Europe.

He couldn't because people knew he was spent.
That's why he came here after Johnston was crazy enough to throw that kind of money at him.

Canary Canuck
04-18-2010, 07:29 PM
He couldn't because people knew he was spent.
That's why he came here after Johnston was crazy enough to throw that kind of money at him.

It was his non-EU status that caused the problems. He already stated that Almeria, Osasuna and Espanyol all wanted him but had already filled their non-EU quotas (Spanish clubs are limited to 3 non-EU players).

tfc2007
04-18-2010, 07:32 PM
People can not blame Mo for geting JDG. Most people in fact were pushing for Mo to get him, I forsure was one that really wanted Mo to sign him. So before you go and get mad at Mo for signing him, think about what you were saying before he was signed.

Krasno.pL.
04-18-2010, 07:34 PM
Were not blaming Mo for getting him.. were blaming JDG for not giving it his all.. or well it just seems like that anyways.

tfc2007
04-18-2010, 07:37 PM
He couldn't because people knew he was spent.
That's why he came here after Johnston was crazy enough to throw that kind of money at him.


Were not blaming Mo for getting him.. were blaming JDG for not giving it his all.. or well it just seems like that anyways.


What is that then?

Krasno.pL.
04-18-2010, 07:41 PM
What is that then?
Im Not blaming Mo.. lol
im blamim JDG for not stepping up and earning that money.
he signed the contract.. got his money.. All the power to him..
BUT PROVE your worth

tfc2007
04-18-2010, 07:43 PM
He couldn't because people knew he was spent.
That's why he came here after Johnston was crazy enough to throw that kind of money at him.

That is clearly putting Mo at fault.

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 07:46 PM
He is getting 900k this year & could have got that in many league's in Europe.

Oh come on now. That's exaclty how it happened. JDG refused to sign with us before the European season started because he was holding out to get a contract in Europe. He recieved no offers, the European season started and he realized his only hope of making money was to sign with TFC.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2010, 07:48 PM
I still think people are expecting too much, he made a mistake but outside of that showed better than he did last game and will continue to do so as the season goes on, the defense begins to gel and the players get to know each other.

Dirk Diggler
04-18-2010, 07:50 PM
In this particular instance, I think I'm gonna give Mo a free pass and blame MLSE instead. I don't, for a second, believe that they gave Mo the authority to spend as much money as he can on a DP. I suspect they gave him about $1 million per year to work with and that only left guys like JDG as possible options considering how no one in that price range would have as much fan appeal as him.

tfc2007
04-18-2010, 07:50 PM
I still think people are expecting too much, he made a mistake but outside of that showed better than he did last game and will continue to do so as the season goes on, the defense begins to gel and the players get to know each other.

Agree,

That second half, he was moving the ball very well. Lets not all hop on a "anti de guz" band wagon.

Stryker
04-18-2010, 07:54 PM
De Guzman has no heart.
/thread

boban
04-18-2010, 08:02 PM
Thank you Jloome, i agree 100%
I agree also.
He's getting frustrated out there. you see it when he lays a pass off and the runner is nowhere on the ball, deciding stay back or whatever. JDG just puts his arms in the air.
At the end of the day this is not working out. He is not playing to his potential as a result of this frustration and guys don't read him.

T0R0NT0 FC
04-18-2010, 08:02 PM
It's a team game, if the rest of the team isn't playing at your level than what can he do? He plays some good balls etc, but nobody has the ability to read them and go where they need to be. MLS < < < LLBA. The skill level in the MLS is WAY below where he used to be.

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 08:07 PM
I still think people are expecting too much, he made a mistake but outside of that showed better than he did last game and will continue to do so as the season goes on, the defense begins to gel and the players get to know each other.

DeGuzman looked good for 15 minutes in the second half. Why is it that I'm expecting too much when all I want is the guy to pass the ball to a white shirt? Or I want the guy to be able to hold onto the ball in the middle of the park without losing it, specially when he's losing it because the ball is constantly tangled at his feet. I'm not expecting too much, he's simply not delivering enough. He's the highest paid player on the team, it's not unreasonable for someone to think that he shouldn't be one of the weak links, unfortunately, he is.

Beach_Red
04-18-2010, 08:15 PM
I agree also.
He's getting frustrated out there. you see it when he lays a pass off and the runner is nowhere on the ball, deciding stay back or whatever. JDG just puts his arms in the air.
At the end of the day this is not working out. He is not playing to his potential as a result of this frustration and guys don't read him.

And he's not the first guy to have this experience, and reaction, with TFC - what makes it so frustrating is that it's happened before and likely will happen again.

ilikemusic
04-18-2010, 08:16 PM
Regardless of his attitude on the pitch, we all knew when he signed that he was not the right player. We needed the same thing then that we still need now. A striker, and a couple useful defenders.

He was a midfielder, we didnt need a midfielder. Hes a 'defensive mid fielder'. We really didnt need a defensive mid.

IMO its just another indication that MoJo hasnt got a fucking clue.

New York fans were laughing when he was named our first head coach/GM for a reason.

I dont really blame JDG. He has been put into a horrible situation. It isnt his fault MoJo is a moron and offered him such a nice contract.

But still, how disheartening must it be for the guys making 80K that Mr. Millionaire cant even seem to get the basics down?

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 08:18 PM
I agree also.
He's getting frustrated out there. you see it when he lays a pass off and the runner is nowhere on the ball, deciding stay back or whatever. JDG just puts his arms in the air.
At the end of the day this is not working out. He is not playing to his potential as a result of this frustration and guys don't read him.

Honestly man, the only thing I saw today (specially in the first half) were men wide open waiting for a pass and somehow he managed to kick it out of bounds or hit a Colorabdo player with his pass. Not buying this argument at all. I saw frustration today, but it was from Cronin at one point when Deguz's pass failed to get to him.

Beach_Red
04-18-2010, 08:19 PM
^ Do you think ownership required the DP be Canadian? Or, do you think they reacted to the fact there were so many threads on here asking for him to be signed?

I realize we'll never get an answer to these questions, but looking at some of the contracts they've given to players on their other teams, we have to wonder.

Blizzard
04-18-2010, 08:20 PM
It's a team game, if the rest of the team isn't playing at your level than what can he do? He plays some good balls etc, but nobody has the ability to read them and go where they need to be. MLS < < < LLBA. The skill level in the MLS is WAY below where he used to be.

In certain respects, he is too good for this league.

GBV
04-18-2010, 08:24 PM
^ in others (hustle, effort, spunk come to mind) he's not.

Belfast_Boy
04-18-2010, 08:24 PM
like a lot of people have said here it's a team game. every team needs it's best players to be the best players during the game.
JDG isn't doing that. I'm not hating on the guy, it's just how it is. I don't give a shit if he's frustrated because some of our boys can't run when they should.
he's getting DP money and should play like he is.

GBV
04-18-2010, 08:30 PM
^ agreed. grab the game by the scruff of the fucking neck. if you can.

marquis
04-18-2010, 08:32 PM
In certain respects, he is too good for this league.

Then, it's about time he shows it. The way I see things, if he's that good, he should shine even more in this league. A good player is a good player anywhere.

boban
04-18-2010, 08:42 PM
Honestly man, the only thing I saw today (specially in the first half) were men wide open waiting for a pass and somehow he managed to kick it out of bounds or hit a Colorabdo player with his pass. Not buying this argument at all. I saw frustration today, but it was from Cronin at one point when Deguz's pass failed to get to him.
I saw differently, in the little game that I did see.
I recall in the 1st half he had the ball and he passed up to a jogging Labrocca, past a Colorado mid. it was a pass just a yard or 2 ahead so Labrocca could run onto it in stride. Labrocca did fuck all, showed he didn't know what JDG wanted and the ball ran out and we turned it over. JDG raises his arms in disgust and turns and the frustration on his face was huge.
The fitness level in Spain is more than here. JDG has to lower his expectations on sooo many levels.

Stryker
04-18-2010, 08:46 PM
I saw differently, in the little game that I did see.
I recall in the 1st half he had the ball and he passed up to a jogging Labrocca, past a Colorado mid. it was a pass just a yard or 2 ahead so Labrocca could run onto it in stride. Labrocca did fuck all, showed he didn't know what JDG wanted and the ball ran out and we turned it over. JDG raises his arms in disgust and turns and the frustration on his face was huge.
The fitness level in Spain is more than here. JDG has to lower his expectations on sooo many levels.
I thought LaBrocca could have reached that too with half an effort, but it doesn't excuse all of JDG's passes directly to Colorado players in the first half.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2010, 08:47 PM
DeGuzman looked good for 15 minutes in the second half. Why is it that I'm expecting too much when all I want is the guy to pass the ball to a white shirt? Or I want the guy to be able to hold onto the ball in the middle of the park without losing it, specially when he's losing it because the ball is constantly tangled at his feet. I'm not expecting too much, he's simply not delivering enough. He's the highest paid player on the team, it's not unreasonable for someone to think that he shouldn't be one of the weak links, unfortunately, he is.

im simply saying give the guy some time, the team has been overhauled, hes only played 9 games, 4 of those games with this new team not to mention the fact hes been shifted from position to position, its the same with the rest of the team, you will see a change, he has already started to prove himself and will continue to do so (i believe). For him to step on to the field with a team he doesnt know and make a massive impact is a bit much to expect from anyone at this point

profit89
04-18-2010, 08:52 PM
Patience. Give it time. JDG is easily the best player on our side technically. He needs a better supporting cast for sure. But even more than that, the players need time to get used to each other.

Stryker
04-18-2010, 08:53 PM
He's awesome at winning balls there's no doubt.
Problem is he's been turning it over twice as much.

deltox
04-18-2010, 09:06 PM
i started the thread....then people jumped all over me.


i wont say any thing else negative about JDG until after the 5th game.

mmmikey
04-18-2010, 09:08 PM
wtf. "rose colored glasses" my ass. some of u guys have piss colored glasses because all you seem to want to do is piss on a different player every week. this team is frustrating but this is ridiculous..

JDG made a STUPID error on that free kick, but outside of that was the most influential player on the team today. he won the ball or positioned himself for interceptions many times, continually dropped back to offer himself as the first option out of defense and tried to work the ball up the field by passing, using his teammates, and not trying to turn and out run people with it or just plain play long balls. its what a player of his ilk is supposed to do. if u want to argue that DP money shouldn't be spent on a player at that position fine, but his performance is NOT that bad. most times his passes are intercepted after he tries to do too much because there is NO team mates offering themselves in space to receive a ball moving forward. do u expect the DP to never lose possession? that's a ridiculously high standard for a guy who receives/completes so many passes (i would like to see the stats on passes received/attempted.. i bet he was pretty high today outside of the CB's who like to pass it around forever at times).

frankly at his position he will NEVER be able to take the team on his shoulders and drive them to victory making spectacular plays along the way. it's not the way that position works in the game. u watch pirlo play (who is WAY ahead of JDG's calibre), one of the best deep playmakers ever and outside of his free kicks u will rarely watch him and go "wow that was insane!" he just does the simple things that makes a team go. Xavi often doesn't get the credit he deserves with barca (seriously the dude is amazing).. they do the grunt work, receive, pass, move, receive, repeat. they are the offensive lineman of soccer. u can't win without them, when they screw up its obvious and even when they have a terrific game u will rarely notice them.

to dump all this on JDG is to vastly overrate our team as a whole. without JDG we would be much worse, and that should piss everyone else off a lot more than the fact he hasn't made us a contender single handed.. he continues to play better and better with each game despite our entire team looking at odds with each other.

u want a scapegoat, look no further than the man who has given this team ZERO cohesion or stability. this may be the 4th year for the franchise, but outside of a small group this is only the first year for this team. think of this team as an expansion club or a 2nd year team.

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 09:14 PM
im simply saying give the guy some time, the team has been overhauled, hes only played 9 games, 4 of those games with this new team not to mention the fact hes been shifted from position to position, its the same with the rest of the team, you will see a change, he has already started to prove himself and will continue to do so (i believe). For him to step on to the field with a team he doesnt know and make a massive impact is a bit much to expect from anyone at this point

Ask yourself what Dero contributed after playing 9 games with TFC, and then you'll see why I'm frustrated with JDG. Dero played as a striker, winger and attacking midfielder in his first 9 games and had no problem adjusting.

fiji_blue
04-18-2010, 09:15 PM
^^
agreed

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2010, 09:25 PM
Ask yourself what Dero contributed after playing 9 games with TFC, and then you'll see why I'm frustrated with JDG. Dero played as a striker, winger and attacking midfielder in his first 9 games and had no problem adjusting.

cmon man, two different positions, lets not have this conversation all over again.

mmmikey
04-18-2010, 09:27 PM
Ask yourself what Dero contributed after playing 9 games with TFC, and then you'll see why I'm frustrated with JDG. Dero played as a striker, winger and attacking midfielder in his first 9 games and had no problem adjusting.

DeRo doesn't need teammates to shine, he is very much a free lancer, and finisher. he is on the receiving end of things, if the team fails to get him the ball, it's rarely his fault. he doesn't require familiarity with his teammates for his own qualities to shine through. furthermore, he was already in MLS. it's not a very fair comparison.

i agree that DeRo rules... although i think he would struggle to see the field in much of europe.

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 09:29 PM
cmon man, two different positions, lets not have this conversation all over again.

Is it beyond your ability to measure the impact a player can have on a team no matter what position they play?

Dirk Diggler
04-18-2010, 09:30 PM
DeRo doesn't need teammates to shine, he is very much a free lancer, and finisher. he is on the receiving end of things, if the team fails to get him the ball, it's rarely his fault. he doesn't require familiarity with his teammates for his own qualities to shine through. furthermore, he was already in MLS. it's not a very fair comparison.

i agree that DeRo rules... although i think he would struggle to see the field in much of europe.

To be fair, as it stands right now, JDG would struggle to see the field in Europe as well ... thus the reason why he is here in the first place.

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 09:32 PM
DeRo doesn't need teammates to shine, he is very much a free lancer, and finisher. he is on the receiving end of things, if the team fails to get him the ball, it's rarely his fault. he doesn't require familiarity with his teammates for his own qualities to shine through. furthermore, he was already in MLS. it's not a very fair comparison.

i agree that DeRo rules... although i think he would struggle to see the field in much of europe.

Dero plays his position well. He scores goals as a striker/winger should do. Deguz doens't play his position well. He gives up the ball cheaply, constantly passess the ball to the other team and makes more poor decisions then good ones on the field. Deguz, just like Dero would struggle to see the pitch in Europe as well. Do you think he has European teams knocking on his door right now?

Dirk Diggler
04-18-2010, 09:35 PM
Either way, I digress. By now, I'm tired of discussing someone's merits on an individual basis. That is pretty much all we've done in the past 4 years. The real problem is the overall structure of the team. That is the thing that has been broken for the past god knows how long. The biggest problem is that we've never managed to retain a good back line for any appreciable amount of time. Unless we get that shit in order, the rest is just pointless. Same thing goes for the forwards. Despite having some great individual talent in guys like cunningham, Casey and Buddle, we've never managed to have a good tandem of strikers ... now we don't even have one. With so many systematic holes in the roster that stretch back to the beginning of the franchise, it really is pointless to discuss whether JDG is good or not.

Belfast_Boy
04-18-2010, 09:36 PM
Ask yourself what Dero contributed after playing 9 games with TFC, and then you'll see why I'm frustrated with JDG. Dero played as a striker, winger and attacking midfielder in his first 9 games and had no problem adjusting.

it's hard to compare the two. Dero is much more aggressive player. he wants to score goals and will run over anyone to do it.
JDG isn't as forwardly minded. so we're not going to see the same production from him.
where I do agree with this post is that Dero works his ass off and I can't say I've seen the same from JDG.
perhaps I'm wrong, but we know he didn't want to come here and I think it's showing in his play.

volunteer
04-18-2010, 09:41 PM
think of this team as an expansion club or a 2nd year team.

hrrrmmm... as Seattle has proven last season and both Seattle and Philadelphia looking on its way to doing again this year, that's a pretty weak excuse for Toronto's shortcomings, it doesn't address the club's real problems and it's the kind of rationalization that probably does more harm than good

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 09:47 PM
it's hard to compare the two. Dero is much more aggressive player. he wants to score goals and will run over anyone to do it.
JDG isn't as forwardly minded. so we're not going to see the same production from him.
where I do agree with this post is that Dero works his ass off and I can't say I've seen the same from JDG.
perhaps I'm wrong, but we know he didn't want to come here and I think it's showing in his play.

I don't expect Dero to defend, the same way I don't expect JDG to score goals. I expect JDG to man the midfield, I expect to see him break up plays more then he gives up the ball. No one is talking about JDG's lack of goals or assists as the problem. The problem is he isn't playing his position very well. If you want a 1 to 1 comparison, then let's take Robbo. Robbo was never known for his distribution ability, but was a great tackler with TFC. I've yet to see Deguz make a great tackle and I see him making the same passess Robbo got a bad rap for.

mmmikey
04-18-2010, 09:49 PM
Dero plays his position well. He scores goals as a striker/winger should do. Deguz doens't play his position well. He gives up the ball cheaply, constantly passess the ball to the other team and makes more poor decisions then good ones on the field. Deguz, just like Dero would struggle to see the pitch in Europe as well. Do you think he has European teams knocking on his door right now?

dero plays his position well by MLS standards. i find him subpar at points in the game.. he gives away possession as well, and takes weak overly ambitious shots on goal. he has his faults much like JDG. thats why NEITHER player is in europe right now.

JDG needs to cut down on his giveaways? yes. so does the entire team. no one is innocent of that. at least DeRo can try to take someone on with his pace and get a shot off.. thats his game. when he does it poorly ppl still applaud him for the effort. his errors are low risk cause they are so far up the field. JDG's errors are high risk and will draw much more attention. JDG is playing his position well by MLS standards currently, i believe that with another month of time this team could gel to a point where he will be playing well by HIS standards, and not just MLS's.

look, im not claiming JDG is playing as well as he should. im saying that his position is not one that can be judged solely in isolation.

my biggest knock on him right now is that he hasn't tailored his game to the lesser abilities of his surrounding cast, but frankly i can't hold him to that because im not sure i want to see good players come in to the league and try to dumb their game down. i want to see them force those around them to be better. a little ambitious when u have guys like usanov and saric running around out there.

i don't expect to convince u otherwise, u seem fairly certain that you understand this game better than anyone else. i just can't believe u see so little improvement along the way.

profit89
04-18-2010, 09:51 PM
frankly at his position he will NEVER be able to take the team on his shoulders and drive them to victory making spectacular plays along the way. it's not the way that position works in the game. u watch pirlo play (who is WAY ahead of JDG's calibre), one of the best deep playmakers ever and outside of his free kicks u will rarely watch him and go "wow that was insane!" he just does the simple things that makes a team go. Xavi often doesn't get the credit he deserves with barca (seriously the dude is amazing).. they do the grunt work, receive, pass, move, receive, repeat. they are the offensive lineman of soccer. u can't win without them, when they screw up its obvious and even when they have a terrific game u will rarely notice them.

to dump all this on JDG is to vastly overrate our team as a whole. without JDG we would be much worse, and that should piss everyone else off a lot more than the fact he hasn't made us a contender single handed.. he continues to play better and better with each game despite our entire team looking at odds with each other.

u want a scapegoat, look no further than the man who has given this team ZERO cohesion or stability. this may be the 4th year for the franchise, but outside of a small group this is only the first year for this team. think of this team as an expansion club or a 2nd year team.


very well said !

mmmikey
04-18-2010, 09:53 PM
hrrrmmm... as Seattle has proven last season and both Seattle and Philadelphia looking on its way to doing again this year, that's a pretty weak excuse for Toronto's shortcomings, it doesn't address the club's real problems and it's the kind of rationalization that probably does more harm than good

how am i making it an excuse??? i am being realistic. how long has this squad been together? outside of ibby and gala, this team has basically been together for 1 season.

its a damn travesty this team is at the same point in development as a team like the union. its pathetic and there should be no excuse. but that is not the players fault. it is managements fault.

denime
04-18-2010, 09:54 PM
It's a team game, if the rest of the team isn't playing at your level than what can he do? He plays some good balls etc, but nobody has the ability to read them and go where they need to be. MLS < < < LLBA. The skill level in the MLS is WAY below where he used to be.

To the certain point yes you are right.This comment from his interview in the star from few day ago he very clearly explained the difference between MLS and Europe.


After years of playing in France, Germany and most recently Spain, de Guzman said the biggest transition to the Major League Soccer game is its shortage of tactics. While in Europe the focus is on ball possession and a more methodical attack up the field as every player knows where he should be and what his teammates are doing, in North America he said it’s more “back and forth and wild and hectic.”
“In Europe, it’s their culture to sit there and talk day in and day out about football tactics,” he said. “Here you don’t see that. You’ll watch a video with your team but it’s not part of the culture.
“It’s something that I’m going to have to eventually adapt to but at the same time I’m going to work with my players and pass on things that I was taught over there that can make us all better.”
Can that be used as excuse,probably not,does it make more dificult for him to play?for sure.This is a team sport and if you have players running around like headless chickens(reason why Cronin didn't play last game) out of their positions WTF is he suppose to do?

Even Preki said in his inteview after the game,there were players in the wall that shouldn't be there,so who fuck it up and didn't show up in the wall?

"The wall, the way we set up the wall, the way we talk about the wall. People who were in the wall shouldn't have been. We gave up a silly goal" - Preki on the defensive wall breakdown on the second Colorado goal. In the same interview about 2nd penalty when he said that Usanov was out of his position,it wasn't his job to defend Casey.
Preki is about tactics and ball possession and according to him after we tied the game players were out of their positions and very undisciplined.

Is De Guzman playing on the level that we would like?No
Is it his fault that MLS is 100 years behind Europe when it comes to game tactics and game culture?no

Pure guy jumped in that wall thinking MLS players can curve the ball over the wall:facepalm: ,someone should tell him the only MLS players who were able to do it are not playing anymore(Beckham,Blanco and Guevara).

I hope he will pick up his game because TFC need him more than we think.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-18-2010, 09:54 PM
Is it beyond your ability to measure the impact a player can have on a team no matter what position they play?

are you really going to start attacking me personally?

No its not, hence my previous statement, it is beyond my ability to compare apples and oranges

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 09:57 PM
dero plays his position well by MLS standards. i find him subpar at points in the game.. he gives away possession as well, and takes weak overly ambitious shots on goal. he has his faults much like JDG. thats why NEITHER player is in europe right now.

JDG needs to cut down on his giveaways? yes. so does the entire team. no one is innocent of that. at least DeRo can try to take someone on with his pace and get a shot off.. thats his game. when he does it poorly ppl still applaud him for the effort. his errors are low risk cause they are so far up the field. JDG's errors are high risk and will draw much more attention. JDG is playing his position well by MLS standards currently, i believe that with another month of time this team could gel to a point where he will be playing well by HIS standards, and not just MLS's.

look, im not claiming JDG is playing as well as he should. im saying that his position is not one that can be judged solely in isolation.

my biggest knock on him right now is that he hasn't tailored his game to the lesser abilities of his surrounding cast, but frankly i can't hold him to that because im not sure i want to see good players come in to the league and try to dumb their game down. i want to see them force those around them to be better. a little ambitious when u have guys like usanov and saric running around out there.

i don't expect to convince u otherwise, u seem fairly certain that you understand this game better than anyone else. i just can't believe u see so little improvement along the way.

I don't clame to understand this game better then anyone else. I have my opinions on how effective JDG has been and I express them, that is all.

Pachuco
04-18-2010, 10:00 PM
are you really going to start attacking me personally?

No its not, hence my previous statement, it is beyond my ability to compare apples and oranges

It really wasn't meant to be an "attack". Just asking you whether you can gauge a player's impact on a team regardless of the position they play. BTW - if I was so wrong in comparing two players that don't play the same position then you'd have 11 MVPs per team every year. There's a reason why JDG was MVP of his team in 2007, because he obviously had the most positive impact in Deportivo regardless of position.

volunteer
04-18-2010, 10:03 PM
how am i making it an excuse??? i am being realistic. how long has this squad been together? outside of ibby and gala, this team has basically been together for 1 season.

its a damn travesty this team is at the same point in development as a team like the union. its pathetic and there should be no excuse. but that is not the players fault. it is managements fault.

by the fact you're using it to explain Toronto's poor performance? having rosters filled with players who haven't played together before doesn't seem to be much of a problem for Seattle or Philadelphia.

TFC's problems are much more complex and diverse and could easily include the players. and you're giving TFC far too much credit by comparing the club to Philadelphia's level of development. the Union might have lost here on Thursday but their level of play was miles ahead of TFC's

Belfast_Boy
04-18-2010, 10:09 PM
I don't expect Dero to defend, the same way I don't expect JDG to score goals. I expect JDG to man the midfield, I expect to see him break up plays more then he gives up the ball. No one is talking about JDG's lack of goals or assists as the problem. The problem is he isn't playing his position very well. If you want a 1 to 1 comparison, then let's take Robbo. Robbo was never known for his distribution ability, but was a great tackler with TFC. I've yet to see Deguz make a great tackle and I see him making the same passess Robbo got a bad rap for.

I agree with you that we can't compare Dero and JDG.

IMO we pay DP money for someone to be great. head and shoulders above the regular guys. that's why they get paid the big bucks. DP quality should be more evident than what we've seen.

Stryker
04-18-2010, 10:21 PM
I have a feeling JDG's play will be a topic of discussion on the next Footy Show podcast. Looking forward to it.

Roogsy
04-18-2010, 10:22 PM
I don't expect Dero to defend, the same way I don't expect JDG to score goals. I expect JDG to man the midfield, I expect to see him break up plays more then he gives up the ball. No one is talking about JDG's lack of goals or assists as the problem. The problem is he isn't playing his position very well. If you want a 1 to 1 comparison, then let's take Robbo. Robbo was never known for his distribution ability, but was a great tackler with TFC. I've yet to see Deguz make a great tackle and I see him making the same passess Robbo got a bad rap for.

I gotta agree with this post.

We could have kept Robbo, paid him less and used the DP slot for an impactful striker that could have taken the pressure off DeRo.

Essentially we are paying more for less, and that is never a good thing.

Super
04-18-2010, 10:35 PM
I gotta agree with this post.

We could have kept Robbo, paid him less and used the DP slot for an impactful striker that could have taken the pressure off DeRo.

Essentially we are paying more for less, and that is never a good thing.

And not only that, you also anger the supporters because we feel ripped off - as does some players who quite frankly must wonder how JDG warrants such money.

We definitely should've kept Robbo. We definitely shouldn't have signed JDG. We definitely should've signed a DP striker. Mo is 0 for 3.

Having said the above, there is of course always a chance that JDG will step up and prove us all wrong. But for now we can only judge what we have seen, and it hasn't been pretty. Hopefully things will get better. MUCH better.

Belfast_Boy
04-18-2010, 10:57 PM
And not only that, you also anger the supporters because we feel ripped off - as does some players who quite frankly must wonder how JDG warrants such money.

We definitely should've kept Robbo. We definitely shouldn't have signed JDG. We definitely should've signed a DP striker. Mo is 0 for 3.

Having said the above, there is of course always a chance that JDG will step up and prove us all wrong. But for now we can only judge what we have seen, and it hasn't been pretty. Hopefully things will get better. MUCH better.

I just hope it doesn't cause problems amongst the players.

Keyman
04-18-2010, 11:07 PM
I've seen De Guzman make many solid tackles, as well as smart decisions. His uselessness is being greatly exaggerated at the moment.

Blizzard
04-18-2010, 11:23 PM
I've seen De Guzman make many solid tackles, as well as smart decisions. His uselessness is being greatly exaggerated at the moment.

I totally agree. Apart from the obvious moment of disaster and a couple of poor passes, he was looking better and better. I expect him to continue to progress as he works in better syncronicity with his teammates and they with him.

Stop standing around boys. Get open and give him a few more options.

Keyman
04-18-2010, 11:36 PM
Exactly. Today there were probably 5-6 excellent tackles. He's able to sneak in and almost duck under players to steal possession. Most of his "wayward" passes are a result of stationary teammates, not a lack of precision. De Guzman plays a very fluid game, he's always moving, always creating havoc for opposing players whether it be defensively or offensively. His role as a distributor is severely hindered because, let's be frank, who the hell can he distribute to!? Barrett doesn't have enough pace to constantly get on the end of through balls, DeRo plays too far back, and our wingers can't even hold possession. I empathize with De Guzman, I really do.

Roogsy
04-18-2010, 11:43 PM
Exactly. Today there were probably 5-6 excellent tackles. He's able to sneak in and almost duck under players to steal possession. Most of his "wayward" passes are a result of stationary teammates, not a lack of precision. De Guzman plays a very fluid game, he's always moving, always creating havoc for opposing players whether it be defensively or offensively. His role as a distributor is severely hindered because, let's be frank, who the hell can he distribute to!? Barrett doesn't have enough pace to constantly get on the end of through balls, DeRo plays too far back, and our wingers can't even hold possession. I empathize with De Guzman, I really do.

Even if all these points were true (which I do not completely agree with), it still makes him a poor signing by Mo.

You sign players that will fit the system you play. Mo signed somebody because he was Canadian and available. I still say it was a poor signing by Mo who could have kept Robbo at a cheaper price (which is really saying something considering Robbo's high pricetag.)

On the subject of De Guzman suffering from undertalented teammates...well wouldn't you expect the guy making DP money to adjust to help elevate their play by compensating/adjusting for their deficiencies? Otherwise, what is the point of being a DP if you can't play with the people around you? If there are no benefits to having a DP, there is no real point in signing them to be the DP in the first place.

Keyman
04-18-2010, 11:58 PM
Then the issue is Mo, not De Guzman. You're critical of Mo signing him, not so much De Guzman's play.

I think his role has yet to be defined, or has been surrounded by far too much ambiguity. Throughout his career he has predominantly played as a defensive midfielder, while also playing in a more attacking role with Canada at points. With TFC he invariably seems to be caught in the middle, forced to do far too much. I strongly believe if we were to push him further back/forward we would see improved play. People have such disparate expectations when it comes to him because of the fact that he doesn't have a defined role with the club.

And as for suffering as a result of teammates. I agree, DPs should be able to ameliorate the quality of those who surround him. But come on man, open your eyes! Look at who he is surrounded by! Most of the players are horrendous, I mean they can't even run onto a pass two yards in front of them. They seriously lacking in the football IQ department. Honestly, there is not one player who could compensate for the deficiencies of this squad, no one.

J .
04-19-2010, 12:26 AM
Im just disappointed he jumped out of the way of the free kick... lame.;..

Stryker
04-19-2010, 12:57 AM
Looks like he'd rather risk a hand ball penalty kick than have the ball hit his ridiculous hair. Pathetic.

http://www.mls-rumors.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Picture-5.png

Oblio2
04-19-2010, 06:59 AM
I miss Robbo

Steve
04-19-2010, 08:28 AM
Dear Julian de Guzman

Look, we get it. TFC isn’t the prettiest girl at the ball. She’s awkward, clumsy, has serious body odor problems, and, frankly, is a little on the hefty side. We’re all realistic here. We also know you’re used to courting the hot Spanish ladies. You know the ones I’m talking about, exotic, gorgeous, legs that go on forever… I digress. The truth is though, those ladies dumped you, didn’t they? And now you’ve decided to hoggin’, because you just can’t be single right now. You think you’re the mack-daddy, you think you’re too good for her, so you fuck around, don’t take your relationship seriously, and put in no effort (I mean, would dinner and a movie every once in a while kill you?) because, I mean, hey, she’s just lucky to have you, right?

Here’s the problem buddy boy. TFC is like a daughter to us. A fat, ugly daughter, sure, but we love her just as much as any parent. So, please, do the right thing. Either treat her with the respect that she deserves to be treated, and love her as we do, or break up with her now and save her the pain. I know, it will hurt like the dickens right now, but she’ll get over you, and it’s better to do it now than keep stringing her along, saying the right things, but never following through. Believe it or not, there are people out there that will treat TFC as she needs to be treated, that will love her as she deserves to be loved, despite her failings. If you are not one of those people, let us know now and get on your way. It’s the only honorable thing to do.

mmmikey
04-19-2010, 08:57 AM
by the fact you're using it to explain Toronto's poor performance? having rosters filled with players who haven't played together before doesn't seem to be much of a problem for Seattle or Philadelphia.

TFC's problems are much more complex and diverse and could easily include the players. and you're giving TFC far too much credit by comparing the club to Philadelphia's level of development. the Union might have lost here on Thursday but their level of play was miles ahead of TFC's

don't assume im making excuses for this teams play.. im terribly disappointed in this organization. many of these players do not belong in a starting lineup in the MLS, and it doesn't help when they obviously have little to no understanding or familiarity with each other. at this point i view us as a poor expansion side. not a 4th year team. this organization has been clusterfucking for the last few years.

ps, i dont think the union played all that great in comparison.. but i do think they are a more balanced squad on the pitch from the game i saw. i have not had time to watch their other games tho. if anything, i think our team is so much worse talent wise, we WILL make poor teams look good.

tfc2007
04-19-2010, 09:08 AM
Dear Julian de Guzman

Look, we get it. TFC isn’t the prettiest girl at the ball. She’s awkward, clumsy, has serious body odor problems, and, frankly, is a little on the hefty side. We’re all realistic here. We also know you’re used to courting the hot Spanish ladies. You know the ones I’m talking about, exotic, gorgeous, legs that go on forever… I digress. The truth is though, those ladies dumped you, didn’t they? And now you’ve decided to hoggin’, because you just can’t be single right now. You think you’re the mack-daddy, you think you’re too good for her, so you fuck around, don’t take your relationship seriously, and put in no effort (I mean, would dinner and a movie every once in a while kill you?) because, I mean, hey, she’s just lucky to have you, right?

Here’s the problem buddy boy. TFC is like a daughter to us. A fat, ugly daughter, sure, but we love her just as much as any parent. So, please, do the right thing. Either treat her with the respect that she deserves to be treated, and love her as we do, or break up with her now and save her the pain. I know, it will hurt like the dickens right now, but she’ll get over you, and it’s better to do it now than keep stringing her along, saying the right things, but never following through. Believe it or not, there are people out there that will treat TFC as she needs to be treated, that will love her as she deserves to be loved, despite her failings. If you are not one of those people, let us know now and get on your way. It’s the only honorable thing to do.

haha love the analogy.

mmmikey
04-19-2010, 09:11 AM
Then the issue is Mo, not De Guzman. You're critical of Mo signing him, not so much De Guzman's play.

I think his role has yet to be defined, or has been surrounded by far too much ambiguity. Throughout his career he has predominantly played as a defensive midfielder, while also playing in a more attacking role with Canada at points. With TFC he invariably seems to be caught in the middle, forced to do far too much. I strongly believe if we were to push him further back/forward we would see improved play. People have such disparate expectations when it comes to him because of the fact that he doesn't have a defined role with the club.

And as for suffering as a result of teammates. I agree, DPs should be able to ameliorate the quality of those who surround him. But come on man, open your eyes! Look at who he is surrounded by! Most of the players are horrendous, I mean they can't even run onto a pass two yards in front of them. They seriously lacking in the football IQ department. Honestly, there is not one player who could compensate for the deficiencies of this squad, no one.

100% agree.. furthermore the issue is clouded by the fact that de guzman is NOT a midfield destroyer ala robbo, gattuso, palacios.. u won't see him diving around making two footed challenges all over the place.. he plays the dm role more like a pirlo, huddlestone type player. tries to keep his feet so that when he assumes possession he can keep the ball and make a play.. he was signed and replaced robbo in the lineup, but he is not a 1-1 replacement. this is why i think u see preki pair him with a sanyang..

this doesn't mean he can't be effective as a DM, one play that stands out is when he shoulder barged conor casey to the ground, and walked away with the ball. he is capable of winning the ball.. but don't expect him to be like robbo out there.. different types of midfielders, different styles.

this team has much greater issues than julian's level of play, and to give him this much attention is to take the spotlight off of what really needs to be fixed (lack of quality fb's, lack of any cohesion or ability to move the ball competently after more than a pass or two, lack of a proper target man to receive all the longballs that keep getting hoofed up, lack of width without peterson)

Boondaddy
04-19-2010, 09:15 AM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/04/18/deguzman_wall_381.jpg

:facepalm:

Oblio2
04-19-2010, 09:22 AM
JDG is NOT a Tom Huddlestone.....Not in any sense. Huddlestone tackles and can pass......hence why he's nicknamed Hoddlestone.
JDG should be nicknamed....crap

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:22 AM
100% agree.. furthermore the issue is clouded by the fact that de guzman is NOT a midfield destroyer ala robbo, gattuso, palacios.. u won't see him diving around making two footed challenges all over the place.. he plays the dm role more like a pirlo, huddlestone type player. tries to keep his feet so that when he assumes possession he can keep the ball and make a play.. he was signed and replaced robbo in the lineup, but he is not a 1-1 replacement. this is why i think u see preki pair him with a sanyang..

this doesn't mean he can't be effective as a DM, one play that stands out is when he shoulder barged conor casey to the ground, and walked away with the ball. he is capable of winning the ball.. but don't expect him to be like robbo out there.. different types of midfielders, different styles.

this team has much greater issues than julian's level of play, and to give him this much attention is to take the spotlight off of what really needs to be fixed (lack of quality fb's, lack of any cohesion or ability to move the ball competently after more than a pass or two, lack of a proper target man to receive all the longballs that keep getting hoofed up, lack of width without peterson)


Well said.

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 09:23 AM
100% agree.. furthermore the issue is clouded by the fact that de guzman is NOT a midfield destroyer ala robbo, gattuso, palacios.. u won't see him diving around making two footed challenges all over the place.. he plays the dm role more like a pirlo, huddlestone type player. tries to keep his feet so that when he assumes possession he can keep the ball and make a play.. he was signed and replaced robbo in the lineup, but he is not a 1-1 replacement. this is why i think u see preki pair him with a sanyang..

this doesn't mean he can't be effective as a DM, one play that stands out is when he shoulder barged conor casey to the ground, and walked away with the ball. he is capable of winning the ball.. but don't expect him to be like robbo out there.. different types of midfielders, different styles.

this team has much greater issues than julian's level of play, and to give him this much attention is to take the spotlight off of what really needs to be fixed (lack of quality fb's, lack of any cohesion or ability to move the ball competently after more than a pass or two, lack of a proper target man to receive all the longballs that keep getting hoofed up, lack of width without peterson)

But Mikey, you gotta understand why the focus has been on JDG lately. He's tying up our ability to sign another LB, another striker, another midfielder. We could sign three very decent players for his pay cheque (well maybe Mo can't) but it's conceivable that we could have someone who plays JDG's position atleast at the same level as he has been plus a LB and a winger for that kind of money. If JDG was making 150K then I don't think you would be hearing the negativy you are hearing. It's all relative in a capped league. The guys that get paid the big bucks HAVE to be the best players on the team or they simply aren't worth keeping around.

If you want more players, who would you propose we get rid of since we are supposively maxed out on cap room? if we get rid of Hscanovic and Gargan then we end up with another Hscanovic and Gargan. Or we combine their salaries and sign one guy but that leaves us with a smaller roster. You see what I mean? And let's be clear, I'm not saying it's time for JDG to go, I'm saying it's time for him to step it up or next year I'd rather have three new signings then JDG playing at this level.

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:24 AM
JDG is NOT a Tom Huddlestone.....Not in any sense. Huddlestone tackles and can pass......hence why he's nicknamed Hoddlestone.


I thought the Pirlo one was the name to pick out in that comparison actually. Similar sort of player. Looking for visionary passes, all the while making standing-ball winning challenges and positionally bosses the center of the field. He's more like a defensive version of Modric than he is a Huddlestone IMO.

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:26 AM
But Mikey, you gotta understand why the focus has been on JDG lately. He's tying up our ability to sign another LB, another striker, another midfielder. We could sign three very decent players for his pay cheque (well maybe Mo can't) but it's conceivable that we could have someone who plays JDG's position atleast at the same level as he has been plus a LB and a winger for that kind of money. If JDG was making 150K then I don't think you would be hearing the negativy you are hearing. It's all relative in a capped league. The guys that get paid the big bucks HAVE to be the best players on the team or they simply aren't worth keeping around.

If you want more players, who would you propose we get rid of since we are supposively maxed out on cap room? if we get rid of Hscanovic and Gargan then we end up with another Hscanovic and Gargan. Or we combine their salaries and sign one guy but that leaves us with a smaller roster. You see what I mean? And let's be clear, I'm not saying it's time for JDG to go, I'm saying it's time for him to step it up or next year I'd rather have three new signings then JDG playing at this level.


I agree he needs to up his game, but it's more about him adapting to the players around him, and the ability of the players around him up'ing their game as well. Something I think we'll see more of (from both sides) as they go forward. We need to keep some consistency in the players at this club otherwise, the revolving door shit is never going to end.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-19-2010, 09:26 AM
wtf. "rose colored glasses" my ass. some of u guys have piss colored glasses because all you seem to want to do is piss on a different player every week. this team is frustrating but this is ridiculous..

JDG made a STUPID error on that free kick, but outside of that was the most influential player on the team today. he won the ball or positioned himself for interceptions many times, continually dropped back to offer himself as the first option out of defense and tried to work the ball up the field by passing, using his teammates, and not trying to turn and out run people with it or just plain play long balls. its what a player of his ilk is supposed to do. if u want to argue that DP money shouldn't be spent on a player at that position fine, but his performance is NOT that bad. most times his passes are intercepted after he tries to do too much because there is NO team mates offering themselves in space to receive a ball moving forward. do u expect the DP to never lose possession? that's a ridiculously high standard for a guy who receives/completes so many passes (i would like to see the stats on passes received/attempted.. i bet he was pretty high today outside of the CB's who like to pass it around forever at times).

frankly at his position he will NEVER be able to take the team on his shoulders and drive them to victory making spectacular plays along the way. it's not the way that position works in the game. u watch pirlo play (who is WAY ahead of JDG's calibre), one of the best deep playmakers ever and outside of his free kicks u will rarely watch him and go "wow that was insane!" he just does the simple things that makes a team go. Xavi often doesn't get the credit he deserves with barca (seriously the dude is amazing).. they do the grunt work, receive, pass, move, receive, repeat. they are the offensive lineman of soccer. u can't win without them, when they screw up its obvious and even when they have a terrific game u will rarely notice them.

to dump all this on JDG is to vastly overrate our team as a whole. without JDG we would be much worse, and that should piss everyone else off a lot more than the fact he hasn't made us a contender single handed.. he continues to play better and better with each game despite our entire team looking at odds with each other.

u want a scapegoat, look no further than the man who has given this team ZERO cohesion or stability. this may be the 4th year for the franchise, but outside of a small group this is only the first year for this team. think of this team as an expansion club or a 2nd year team.


Absolutely!

100%

KdotOdot
04-19-2010, 09:28 AM
I agree he needs to up his game, but it's more about him adapting to the players around him, and the ability of the players around him up'ing their game as well. Something I think we'll see more of (from both sides) as they go forward. We need to keep some consistency in the players at this club otherwise, the revolving door shit is never going to end.

So you're saying he needs to step his game down.

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:30 AM
So you're saying he needs to step his game down.


Only to a point, it's more about him needing to realize they can't latch on those same visionary passes that guys in La Liga would have been able to. It all comes back to the training ground IMO and if they aren't buying into the system they are supposed to play, I don't think we'll ever get rid of that disconnect.

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 09:31 AM
I agree he needs to up his game, but it's more about him adapting to the players around him, and the ability of the players around him up'ing their game as well. Something I think we'll see more of (from both sides) as they go forward. We need to keep some consistency in the players at this club otherwise, the revolving door shit is never going to end.

I don't disagree with you, but Mikey's argument is that we need to sign better players in order to make JDG better. The ironic thing is unless we get rid of him we can't sign more players. He's the one making the big bucks. Anyone else we get rid of will more then likely bring a player at the same level. Now I'm personally giving JDG until the end of the year because he obviously has the ability to be one of the best. But if he's still playing the way he's playing at the end of the year then I'll be hoping to god we either get a new DP or 3 decent players.

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:35 AM
I'll tell you straight up that after the first half in New England, I bolded stated that I would be happy without JDG if we could play hard and stick to a system like that the whole season.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-19-2010, 09:41 AM
I wonder if Rudi can get his hands on more prozone style stats??

JDG was running Box-to-Box the whole freakin game!! He was everywhere...Back, Front, Middle, Left, Right....He was hustling 1000 times more then anyone else!

KdotOdot
04-19-2010, 09:41 AM
But we do have a system Shaggy. It's called "Everyone flow the bouncing ball"

TFCREDNWHITE
04-19-2010, 09:42 AM
Like Jason DeVos said " He is only one man, He can't possibly do everything that people expect him to do"

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:42 AM
I wonder if Rudi can get his hands on more prozone style stats??

JDG was running Box-to-Box the whole freakin game!! He was everywhere...Back, Front, Middle, Left, Right....He was hustling 1000 times more then anyone else!

That's what I thought as well... for a while I thought he was playing on the wing.. then I noticed he was on the other side, then he was up near the box, then he was back in front of our net.


But we do have a system Shaggy. It's called "Everyone flow the bouncing ball"


Fuck me... we've been playing that for 4 years now...

denime
04-19-2010, 09:45 AM
I don't disagree with you, but Mikey's argument is that we need to sign better players in order to make JDG better. The ironic thing is unless we get rid of him we can't sign more players. He's the one making the big bucks. Anyone else we get rid of will more then likely bring a player at the same level. Now I'm personally giving JDG until the end of the year because he obviously has the ability to be one of the best. But if he's still playing the way he's playing at the end of the year then I'll be hoping to god we either get a new DP or 3 decent players.

Reading your posts I have a feeling you are pissed at JDG because he is making big bucks ,not the way he is playing,if he was making 40K it would be different story,right?:noidea:

English Rachel
04-19-2010, 09:45 AM
lol.... deja vu anyone? except now you've all changed your minds.....

fabulous

Whoop
04-19-2010, 09:46 AM
I remember your opinion. LOL

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 09:50 AM
lol.... deja vu anyone? except now you've all changed your minds.....

fabulous


Not really. A lot of people were excited to see him here, but thought it wasn't the best move for him, his career, or Toronto FC.

That said, I don't remember the exact quote but, do you still 'believe' he'll be the difference maker?

BC101
04-19-2010, 09:51 AM
lol.... deja vu anyone? except now you've all changed your minds.....

fabulous
:D:hump:get em sista LOLLLLLLLLLL Although I remember making fun of that thread as well but like i said, Good player bad move LOL.

mmmikey
04-19-2010, 09:52 AM
I thought the Pirlo one was the name to pick out in that comparison actually. Similar sort of player. Looking for visionary passes, all the while making standing-ball winning challenges and positionally bosses the center of the field. He's more like a defensive version of Modric than he is a Huddlestone IMO.

yeah u guys are probably right on that... although i think modric is much better with his feet and while he doesn't run past ppl he will run at them and confuse the hell out of them.. huddlestones range of passing is insane, and was a poor comparision, but the way he fights for the ball and wins it is an apt comparison imo. u don't see huddlestone going to ground that often, he usually presents himself and cuts off lanes rather than lunging in (not afraid to do it tho).

drexel10
04-19-2010, 09:53 AM
Dear Julian de Guzman

Look, we get it. TFC isn’t the prettiest girl at the ball. She’s awkward, clumsy, has serious body odor problems, and, frankly, is a little on the hefty side. We’re all realistic here. We also know you’re used to courting the hot Spanish ladies. You know the ones I’m talking about, exotic, gorgeous, legs that go on forever… I digress. The truth is though, those ladies dumped you, didn’t they? And now you’ve decided to hoggin’, because you just can’t be single right now. You think you’re the mack-daddy, you think you’re too good for her, so you fuck around, don’t take your relationship seriously, and put in no effort (I mean, would dinner and a movie every once in a while kill you?) because, I mean, hey, she’s just lucky to have you, right?

Here’s the problem buddy boy. TFC is like a daughter to us. A fat, ugly daughter, sure, but we love her just as much as any parent. So, please, do the right thing. Either treat her with the respect that she deserves to be treated, and love her as we do, or break up with her now and save her the pain. I know, it will hurt like the dickens right now, but she’ll get over you, and it’s better to do it now than keep stringing her along, saying the right things, but never following through. Believe it or not, there are people out there that will treat TFC as she needs to be treated, that will love her as she deserves to be loved, despite her failings. If you are not one of those people, let us know now and get on your way. It’s the only honorable thing to do.

Wow! Unfortunately this sounds like the best analysis of the whole situation right now!

trane
04-19-2010, 10:04 AM
I am tiered of this, IT IS not about one player, it is about a team, that is not up to speed. Our overall team play has been the central problem since day one. I thought brining in Preki was the right step to address this problem. It is not looking good so far, I give it 10 games, if it is not looking better, then I will more convincend then ever, that the entire FO has to be changed, the direction was to be changed. We need a new vision.

JDG could be our Pirlo, but we need players around him to help him. He would make these players better, but they need to have the basic understand of the game which has always been lacking on TFC and the MLS.

English Rachel
04-19-2010, 10:07 AM
Not really. A lot of people were excited to see him here, but thought it wasn't the best move for him, his career, or Toronto FC.

That said, I don't remember the exact quote but, do you still 'believe' he'll be the difference maker?

No, no, not the 'believe' thread to get him here, I am on about my Dear JDG thread that asked him, even though I understood that he didn't want to be here, to at least try for us.... that was the gist of it anyway :)

mmmikey
04-19-2010, 10:09 AM
I don't disagree with you, but Mikey's argument is that we need to sign better players in order to make JDG better. The ironic thing is unless we get rid of him we can't sign more players. He's the one making the big bucks. Anyone else we get rid of will more then likely bring a player at the same level. Now I'm personally giving JDG until the end of the year because he obviously has the ability to be one of the best. But if he's still playing the way he's playing at the end of the year then I'll be hoping to god we either get a new DP or 3 decent players.

your inventing my argument.

-jdg is playing decent, but has room to improve. i believe this will continue to get better
-his improvement and those around him will come with experience within the team
-some of his teammates will hamper the development of the team mentality because they are out of their depth and thus, the time for this team to develop to an acceptable level increases
-we are unable to do much of anything to adjust the team at this point because of gross roster/cap mismanagement over the years
-this team is capable of much more with julian than it would be without him, especially given the person who would be spending the cap money

i think this team is in a tight place (guess who put us here), and is unable to find players of a suitable quality (which other teams seem to do). there are other teams in this league who are playing well without the DP being at an otherworldly level. it's a matter of them having a roster constructed intelligently. i really don't feel like we have many options right now. we are stuck with the team we have right now. best im hoping for is a half season signing (dickov is what i expect and to me he is not what this team needs).

even if we remove JDG from the team, our team is still collectively playing poorly and showing little. the problems will persist with or without him. all we can do is wait for the team to come together to the level they are capable of playing at. it won't be top of the league, but we should at least be a competitive side at the end of it. this is what preseason was supposed to be for.. but it seems preseason is a foreign concept around this organization :(

alex andrew
04-19-2010, 10:10 AM
adapting, shmadapting.

a good player adapts in an instant to a lesser level that he's used to.

i mean, i can see top class players having fun and playing in a kids game, or teenagers, some sort of inter high schools rivalry.

i can see messi having a wonderful time in a seniors charity event.

what is difficult is for my mother in law to adapt while playing for inter milan.

but downgrade ? after a life long of experience on the field ?

what if mls is an upgrade for deguz ?

deltox
04-19-2010, 10:10 AM
but this thread IS about JDG and not the team.

i know its a team game....but you can still analyze each part of that team.


if frei has a bad day and lets a few soft shots in...couldnt we dissect that and talk about how crap he was....or would it be... "no...its a team game"

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:11 AM
Well in that case, I think I can say he has tried. He's seen his players call for a long, defense cutting through ball... then stop running once he actually sends the pass. He's done all the hard work of winning a ball, and then looks down field only to see all his players running away from him hoping to chase the ball down field.

If he wasn't trying, you wouldn't see the glaringly obvious frustration on his face and body actions after watching LaBrocca give up on an easy ball. Same with DeRo and Barrett. It's happening all to often and I fully expected him to get frustrated with this team. The question is, does he, or will he, ever fully trust his players or the coach he's playing for?

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:13 AM
adapting, shmadapting.

a good player adapts in an instant to a lesser level that he's used to.

i mean, i can see top class players having fun and playing in a kids game, or teenagers, some sort of inter high schools rivalry.

i can see messi having a wonderful time in a seniors charity event.

what is difficult is for my mother in law to adapt while playing for inter milan.

but downgrade ? after a life long of experience on the field ?

what if mls is an upgrade for deguz ?


Bollocks. Beckham didn't adapt after one game either. It took him nearly a full year before he started linking up with his teammates properly. Then he turned average players into MLS top scorers (see Buddle).

When you are consistently passing to your teammates and they're giving up before the pass even reaches them... I'm sure it's quite frustrating.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:14 AM
^ I think he would if they showed him something.

But this team since day one(2007) has for the most part looked as if it never player football together before. It is frustrating as a supporter, as a player it would drive me crazy.

Oldtimer
04-19-2010, 10:15 AM
Bollocks. Beckham didn't adapt after one game either. It took him nearly a full year before he started linking up with his teammates properly. Then he turned average players into MLS top scorers (see Buddle).

When you are consistently passing to your teammates and they're giving up before the pass even reaches them... I'm sure it's quite frustrating.

Good points.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:17 AM
adapting, shmadapting.

a good player adapts in an instant to a lesser level that he's used to.

i mean, i can see top class players having fun and playing in a kids game, or teenagers, some sort of inter high schools rivalry.

i can see messi having a wonderful time in a seniors charity event.

what is difficult is for my mother in law to adapt while playing for inter milan.

but downgrade ? after a life long of experience on the field ?

what if mls is an upgrade for deguz ?


Are you serious???? The MLS would not be an upgrade for a player in the Spanish third division, in terms of footy IQ, and tactical play.

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 10:18 AM
Bollocks. Beckham didn't adapt after one game either. It took him nearly a full year before he started linking up with his teammates properly. Then he turned average players into MLS top scorers (see Buddle).

When you are consistently passing to your teammates and they're giving up before the pass even reaches them... I'm sure it's quite frustrating.

And I call bollocks on this. It didn't take Beckham a year to adapt, it did take a while, but not a year.

And Beckham didn't have the advantage of playing on the national team with SEVERAL players like JDG has had since last year.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:20 AM
^ Roogsy, do you realy think the problem is JDG?

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:20 AM
And I call bollocks on this. It didn't take Beckham a year to adapt, it did take a while, but not a year.

And Beckham didn't have the advantage of playing on the national team with SEVERAL players like JDG has had since last year.


Is that really an advantage if it's a totally different team playing a totally different system?

Since JDG has been here, there's been what... 5-6 players that have remained around him? That's saying something, especially since he's only been here for what, 6-7 months? At least LA had consistency with their players so when Beckham showed back up, he knew most of the players and how they were going to play.

Exactly trane. This is why I said originally that I didn't think it was the best move for him or TFC.

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 10:22 AM
^ Roogsy, do you realy think the problem is JDG?

No. But I don't think JDG was a good signing either.

This team is a collection of players thrown together without a plan. I love JDG on our national team. I never thought he was going to be a good fit for TFC. What Mo did with JDG was create a diversion for fans and supporters. A big signing that had nothing to do with football.

For 3 years we needed 2 things and 2 things only. A proper striker and a stud defender. Mo hasn't gotten any of those despite having all the time in the world. So what does he do? He goes out and gets a DM even though we already had one, maybe two.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:23 AM
^ LA is also as not quite as poorly organized as us. Most MLS team are poorly organized, but we are particullary poorly organized, and for all that I can say negative about Donavan the one thing he does right is run, and run INTO spave with or without the ball.

BC101
04-19-2010, 10:23 AM
No. But I don't think JDG was a good signing either.

This team is a collection of players thrown together without a plan. I love JDG on our national team. I never thought he was going to be a good fit for TFC. What Mo did with JDG was create a diversion for fans and supporters. A big signing that had nothing to do with football.

For 3 years we needed 2 things and 2 things only. A proper striker and a stud defender. Mo hasn't gotten any of those despite having all the time in the world. So what does he do? He goes out and gets a DM even though we already had one, maybe two.
This... Although I think everyone can agree he is not playing ANYWHERE near to his potential. Its still my belief that the team is responsible for that. If there is no off the ball movement or runs into space he can't be the player he was in Spain. Just my opinion on JDG though. Complaining about him after this short a period I dunno. Maybe wait till July if he's still crap then yeah....

Vecchia Guardia
04-19-2010, 10:24 AM
Dfense ,4 matches played,10 GA, average GA 2,5....

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 10:25 AM
^ LA is also as not quite as poorly organized as us. Most MLS team are poorly organized, but we are particullary poorly organized, and for all that I can say negative about Donavan the one thing he does right is run, and run INTO spave with or without the ball.

JDG would tear this league up in LA. With Becks and Landycakes? That is a truly scary tandem.

In Toronto, we didn't have a system, we didn't have the players and yet we went out and dropped good coin on a big name player that required both.

This is like buying dubs for your 1989 Ford Escort.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:25 AM
No. But I don't think JDG was a good signing either.

This team is a collection of players thrown together without a plan. I love JDG on our national team. I never thought he was going to be a good fit for TFC. What Mo did with JDG was create a diversion for fans and supporters. A big signing that had nothing to do with football.

For 3 years we needed 2 things and 2 things only. A proper striker and a stud defender. Mo hasn't gotten any of those despite having all the time in the world. So what does he do? He goes out and gets a DM even though we already had one, maybe two.

I do not disagree with this. I did not think that JDG was that bad of a signing, BUT it clearly was not the ideal signing. A striker and a defender would clearly have been more importatn. The failing of JDG, and it is a two way street, is that I tought that he would be able to organize the mid, alla Prilo, clearly he has not, but it may not be completely his fault.

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:25 AM
Exactly Trane... LA's players bought into their system and played their roles within it. That meant making off the ball runs, even if they weren't going to get the ball. Something I RARELY, if ever see with TFC. It's fucking frustrating when I watch U-14 boys playing Rep football with more tactical and in-game IQ than what these players seem to be showing.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:25 AM
JDG would tear this league up in LA. With Becks and Landycakes? That is a truly scary tandem.

In Toronto, we didn't have a system, we didn't have the players and yet we went out and dropped good coin on a big name player that required both.

This is like buying dubs for your 1989 Ford Escort.

Again I have to agree with this.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:26 AM
Exactly Trane... LA's players bought into their system and played their roles within it. That meant making off the ball runs, even if they weren't going to get the ball. Something I RARELY, if ever see with TFC. It's fucking frustrating when I watch U-14 boys playing Rep football with more tactical and in-game IQ than what these players seem to be showing.

This has been my biggest frustration since day one, and we have done little to improve this. [ Preki was my last hope-we will see]

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 10:27 AM
In addition to a striker and a defender, I would like to add that this team has needed a true, effective MLS coach along the lines of an Arena or Nichol.

In my opinion, Preki is not that guy. But that is a discussion for another day.

BC101
04-19-2010, 10:28 AM
Exactly Trane... LA's players bought into their system and played their roles within it. That meant making off the ball runs, even if they weren't going to get the ball. Something I RARELY, if ever see with TFC. It's fucking frustrating when I watch U-14 boys playing Rep football with more tactical and in-game IQ than what these players seem to be showing.
You said it friend. THe lack of off the ball movement with this team is unreal. Just standing around and waiting for the ball. Which leads me to believe JDG isn't near his potential as i alluded to in my previous post.

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 10:28 AM
Reading your posts I have a feeling you are pissed at JDG because he is making big bucks ,not the way he is playing,if he was making 40K it would be different story,right?:noidea:

Absolutely, and why shouldn't it be a different story if JDG was making 40k? This is a salary capped league, thefore I judge player's performance based on how much the team is sacrificing to have them here. If he was making 40K then he'd be a steal. If he was making 40K we'd have him plus quite possibly 3 other decent players on the team.

Vecchia Guardia
04-19-2010, 10:28 AM
In addition to a striker and a defender, I would like to add that this team has needed a true, effective MLS coach along the lines of an Arena or Nichol.

In my opinion, Preki is not that guy. But that is a discussion for another day.

+1:)

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:28 AM
Agreed Roogs, definitely agreed there.

Ladies Love Julius James
04-19-2010, 10:30 AM
Alright time to call a spade a spade. He's tanking it.

The charade started before he even landed here. He was going nowhere in Europe and came here out of desperation. Since then he's been here to do nothing but collect his pay-cheque. To start things he thinks he's TFC's Messi and could get away with murder, that ain't the case and they showed this by benching him after late night partying, well done. Second he thinks he's a fucking fairy with his fancy footwork. It won't work in this league, it ain't La Liga the fancy footwork gets chopped down. Lost the ball countless times. Finally, he jumps out the way of a FK for only God knows why. If I were his teammate I'd get in his face in that changeroom and tear him a new asshole, nothing more than a disrespectful pussy. He's shitting on those who actually work their asses off. He's here to get paid and go home and it's been showed numerous times. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

fetajr
04-19-2010, 10:31 AM
The players arent making the runs, making JDG's passes useless and predictable.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:33 AM
In addition to a striker and a defender, I would like to add that this team has needed a true, effective MLS coach along the lines of an Arena or Nichol.

In my opinion, Preki is not that guy. But that is a discussion for another day.

I was high on Preky, mostly because defense is the magic word with me, but clearly it has been shaky to say the least.

The question I ask, clearly this is not the thread, why not bring coaching from outside, coaching that can teach this players, they clearly need to be taught.

alex andrew
04-19-2010, 10:34 AM
the advantage of playing on the national team with SEVERAL players like JDG has had since last year.

is this an advantage ? or a disadvantage ?

i mean, canada is 64th in the world !!!!

well behind burkina faso, mali and benin.

thanks to deguz, dero, serioux, sutton, brennan.

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 10:39 AM
I was high on Preky, mostly because defense is the magic word with me, but clearly it has been shaky to say the least.

The question I ask, clearly this is not the thread, why not bring coaching from outside, coaching that can teach this players, they clearly need to be taught.

I thought we defended well last night. Our problem wasn't in our defense last night, it was in the midfield. All our plays ended in the middle of the park. I blame Deguzman and Saric's ability to distribute the ball, other people blame the other player's ability to move into space. At the end of the day though, didn't our defense look better to you then it has in the past?

This is coming from someone who can't stand Preki and what he's done to this team.

Vecchia Guardia
04-19-2010, 10:39 AM
I was high on Preky, mostly because defense is the magic word with me, but clearly it has been shaky to say the least.

The question I ask, clearly this is not the thread, why not bring coaching from outside, coaching that can teach this players, they clearly need to be taught.

who?...uhm zeman?

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:40 AM
I thought we defended well last night. Our problem wasn't in our defense last night, it was in the midfield. All our plays ended in the middle of the park. I blame Deguzman and Saric's ability to distribute the ball, other people blame the other player's ability to move into space. At the end of the day though, didn't our defense look better to you then it has in the past?

This is coming from someone who can't stand Preki and what he's done to this team.


Defensively, we are a better team. I definitely can agree to that. We still are missing a proper attack though.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:47 AM
I thought we defended well last night. Our problem wasn't in our defense last night, it was in the midfield. All our plays ended in the middle of the park. I blame Deguzman and Saric's ability to distribute the ball, other people blame the other player's ability to move into space. At the end of the day though, didn't our defense look better to you then it has in the past?

This is coming from someone who can't stand Preki and what he's done to this team.

Defending is not just about the back line-IT starts in the mid. If you do not control the mid, there is too much pressure on your backs.

Defense is about results, we have played 4 games and conceded 10 goals. You do not win on the road, by conceding 3 goals per game. That is not good defense.

I am not saying that what you are saying is not true. But as a team conceding 3 goals a game cannot be considered defensively sound.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-19-2010, 10:47 AM
The players arent making the runs, making JDG's passes useless and predictable.


+1 agreed

TFCREDNWHITE
04-19-2010, 10:50 AM
Exactly Trane... LA's players bought into their system and played their roles within it. That meant making off the ball runs, even if they weren't going to get the ball. Something I RARELY, if ever see with TFC. It's fucking frustrating when I watch U-14 boys playing Rep football with more tactical and in-game IQ than what these players seem to be showing.


Exactly!! others in the mid-field need to step up their game and start making off the ball runs and running and helping Julian for the entire 90mins. Its like they stand around looking and staring at DeGuzman like a deer caught in headlights!

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 10:51 AM
Defending is not just about the back line-IT starts in the mid. If you do not control the mid, there is too much pressure on your backs.

Defense is about results, we have played 4 games and conceded 10 goals. You do not win on the road, by conceding 3 goals per game. That is not good defense.

I am not saying that what you are saying is not true. But as a team conceding 3 goals a game cannot be considered defensively sound.

I don't disagree with you at all. Defense starts in the midfield. Our midfields gave the ball up way too much and put stress on the defense to the point where they started making mistakes. Funny enough the second goal was a result of one midfielder giving the ball up and the other midfielder fouling the guy in order to recover. But as a defensive unit, besides for mistakes that lead to set plays, I really didn't see our defense get exposed as much as the first two games of the season. it's atleast something to build on. Now we just have to figure out how to keep ball posession which I think is this team's biggest problem.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2010, 10:54 AM
JDG is deserving of some of the criticism in this thread albeit some of it is greatly exagerrated. For various reasons previously stated he has not earned his DP salary as of yet nor has he reached his potential. With that being said I have noticed a substantial improvement in his play over the last 2 games and it stands to reason that he can only get better as he adjusts to his teammates as well as the nuances of a new league. I predict JDG will be a standout player in the midfield for TFC in the second half of the season...

alex andrew
04-19-2010, 10:55 AM
i am sorry, but jdg is a carbon copy of garcia.

fetajr
04-19-2010, 10:55 AM
Preki needs to go to The Marcelo Bielsa School of Attacking Futbol.

jloome
04-19-2010, 10:55 AM
He's the best player on our team. He was, for about 40 minutes of it, utterly dominant on Sunday. The rest of the time, he was just entirely competent.

He blew it by setting up in the wall (although that might've been a last second decision to fill the role for whomever was actually supposed to be there) and jumping. That's it.

But go back and watch the damn replay. He breaks up colorado's forward moves through anticipating passes all night long, and he starts some really good forward moves (which then break down at the feet of others) through full-field pressure defence.

He's not only worth 900K a year, I can easily see why he'd get more for that in Europe. And if he leaves, it'll be because a) he can't stand playing at this level and b) he gets zero love from hometown fans who are shitting on the wrong guy.

Shaughno
04-19-2010, 10:57 AM
He's the best player on our team. He was, for about 40 minutes of it, utterly dominant on Sunday. The rest of the time, he was just entirely competent.

He blew it by setting up in the wall (although that might've been a last second decision to fill the role for whomever was actually supposed to be there) and jumping. That's it.

But go back and watch the damn replay. He breaks up colorado's forward moves through anticipating passes all night long, and he starts some really good forward moves (which then break down at the feet of others) through full-field pressure defence.

He's not only worth 900K a year, I can easily see why he'd get more for that in Europe. And if he leaves, it'll be because a) he can't stand playing at this level and b) he gets zero love from hometown fans who are shitting on the wrong guy.


Best breakdown I've seen so far.

trane
04-19-2010, 10:57 AM
Preki needs to go to The Marcelo Bielsa School of Attacking Futbol.

Who exactly do we attack with?? De Ro and who else?


Jloome, I agree. I am getting a bit frustrated, not at measured critics like Roogsy, who puts a reasoned position, but at knee jerk reaction by many on the baord. They are always looking for the ONE player to blame, missing the bigger problem that we have.


Vecchia Guardia, I thought about who I would bring here. I would bring either an up and comming Serie C or B coach, OR, a Primavera coach, to teach this guys the basics.

ManUtd4ever
04-19-2010, 10:59 AM
He's the best player on our team. He was, for about 40 minutes of it, utterly dominant on Sunday. The rest of the time, he was just entirely competent.

He blew it by setting up in the wall (although that might've been a last second decision to fill the role for whomever was actually supposed to be there) and jumping. That's it.

But go back and watch the damn replay. He breaks up colorado's forward moves through anticipating passes all night long, and he starts some really good forward moves (which then break down at the feet of others) through full-field pressure defence.

He's not only worth 900K a year, I can easily see why he'd get more for that in Europe. And if he leaves, it'll be because a) he can't stand playing at this level and b) he gets zero love from hometown fans who are shitting on the wrong guy.

Absolutely, and he will only get stronger as the season progresses...

fetajr
04-19-2010, 11:02 AM
a) he can't stand playing at this level and b) he gets zero love from hometown fans who are shitting on the wrong guy.

BINGO, AND BANGO.

Since there always has to be a 'whipping boy', make it MO JOHNSTON, who has been fucking things up since 2007

Roogsy
04-19-2010, 11:03 AM
He's not only worth 900K a year, I can easily see why he'd get more for that in Europe. And if he leaves, it'll be because a) he can't stand playing at this level and b) he gets zero love from hometown fans who are shitting on the wrong guy.

a) yes

b) I don't think he is that soft. He's played in some of football's biggest shrines, a bunch of hacks on the internet aren't going to faze him.

JDG will go back.

Pachuco
04-19-2010, 11:03 AM
He's the best player on our team. He was, for about 40 minutes of it, utterly dominant on Sunday. The rest of the time, he was just entirely competent.

He blew it by setting up in the wall (although that might've been a last second decision to fill the role for whomever was actually supposed to be there) and jumping. That's it.

But go back and watch the damn replay. He breaks up colorado's forward moves through anticipating passes all night long, and he starts some really good forward moves (which then break down at the feet of others) through full-field pressure defence.

He's not only worth 900K a year, I can easily see why he'd get more for that in Europe. And if he leaves, it'll be because a) he can't stand playing at this level and b) he gets zero love from hometown fans who are shitting on the wrong guy.

Yes he broke up Colorado's plays two or three times. But you are focusing on the positives only. Are you saying he didn't give the ball away multiple times to Colorado or that he didn't get the ball stolen right from his feet more then once? It went both ways for him last night, in the end, you have an average performance. Then the bonehead move and it makes it a poor performance.

Based on how he's playing, the only offer he's going to get in Europe is from a 3rd division Danish side.

trane
04-19-2010, 11:04 AM
a) yes

b) I don't think he is that soft. He's played in some of football's biggest shrines, a bunch of hacks on the internet aren't going to faze him.

JDG will go back.

Unless the team and league realy steps up, but so far it is not looking great.

fetajr
04-19-2010, 11:10 AM
Who exactly do we attack with?? De Ro and who else?

...under the Bielsa School of attacking futbol, you would
1) make the best out of who we currently have :facepalm:
or
2) retards like Mo Johnston would have to be fired and a new guy who understands attacking futbol tactics, formations, strategies, would have to run the team. Scouting would have to be beefed up in order to identify the right players. DeRo and JDG would actually be used more effectively under this regime.

trane
04-19-2010, 11:14 AM
^ I prefer defense first football,BUT whichever concept we chose, it is the lack of understanding of tactics, foramtions, strategies, and identifiying the right players. We ceratinly need that, and I am all for that, even if we chose and attacking system.

Vecchia Guardia
04-19-2010, 11:17 AM
Vecchia Guardia, I thought about who I would bring here. I would bring either an up and comming Serie C or B coach, OR, a Primavera coach, to teach this guys the basics.

i ve just seen the highlits ..the 2 goal is ridicolous..there s something wrong .
Team grants too many goals (2,5 for match, too high),you were complaining about preki from the preseason ,obviously you were right, i think that he s not the right coach .At this point you try to sign zeman as coach , he s free,he s cheap,he s able to learn to guys "the basics",he know how to valorize young players.The only thing that you don t like ,it s that he plays with a 4-3-3,but you ll love him.

BC101
04-19-2010, 11:19 AM
e.


Vecchia Guardia, I thought about who I would bring here. I would bring either an up and comming Serie C or B coach, OR, a Primavera coach, to teach this guys the basics.


i ve just seen the highlits ..the 2 goal is ridicolous..there s something wrong .
Team grants too many goals (2,5 for match, too high),you were complaining about preki from the preseason ,obviously you were right, i think that he s not the right coach .At this point you try to sign zeman as coach , he s free,he s cheap,he s able to learn to guys "the basics",he know how to valorize young players.The only thing that you don t like ,it s that he plays with a 4-3-3,but you ll love him.

:DROLFMAO