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Boris
04-11-2010, 10:20 PM
Yes,
Our team is currently going through a rough patch. While the previous statement might be an understatement I'd like to point out the fact that we are only two games into the current campaign. I understand that this is our fourth year of what seems to be an ongoing disappointing trend of constant rebuilding.

I'd like to first thank all of the supporters who made it out yesterday for what in my opinion was an embarrassing second half. I find myself having to dig deeper each passing day to stand firmly behind my team. Blind faith as a supporter is over. I am here to find the root cause of the issue and to have the powers that be at MLSE fix them.

Have we, as supporters become extremely jaded? How can we not at the very least feel disappointed with the lack of quality on the pitch. It is our love for the team that lead us want and expect the best for our team. Some may label us as being too critical of team. Once again, our passion for the team makes us question what is happening with the team. This overall disappointment is just a sign that we have taken a lot from our team. We expect a team who can give effort for 90 minutes. Over the past little while we have seen questionable games in which I'd like to question the effort. This expectation is one which any fan, or supporter from any sport can at the very least expect

As for the coaches and management. What is it that we expect? We expect management to deliver the strategy and foresight so that our players can produce results. Without proper leadership and guidance, our players are only 11 guys on the pitch. We are NOT a team. This guidance and foresight cannot be achieved with rash and questionable roster changes that lead to a revolving door. We have seen too much player turnaround. How can this team play together if you barely know the name of the person next to you?

While saturdays loss was disappointing, and rumblings of protest become louder I'd like to officially state that the Red Patch Boys will not participate in such a display. A decision like this needs to be thought of more. The season is still young and there is plenty of room to come through. While we can easily say our team sucks so let's walk, why are we walking? By having various 'protests' we loose our credibility as a supporters group and look cheap. As I've said many times, we have to wait and see. Furthermore, to do such a thing at our home opener would be classless end of. We have a lot to look forward too on Thursday and a protest will not be one.

There's still plenty of time but I'd just like people to know that the entire team is on notice. We love our team and will always love our team but I think its time for the team to get results.......

FootieChick
04-11-2010, 10:22 PM
Boris, we've had many chats and you know I'm right with you in all of your decisions.

Thanks for everything :)

Whoop
04-11-2010, 10:24 PM
Toronto FC...

http://edbatista.typepad.com/edbatista/images/2007/03/Colbert_Notice.jpg

Gazza
04-11-2010, 10:28 PM
How long until they're "dead to us?" lol

Toronto FC...

http://edbatista.typepad.com/edbatista/images/2007/03/Colbert_Notice.jpg

Redpunkfiddle
04-11-2010, 10:28 PM
Great statement.

mastermixer
04-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Well said. Now lets hope the Saturday's first half team shows up on Thursday.

Auzzy
04-11-2010, 10:45 PM
^ shows up, and stays around for the 2nd half on Thursday as well...

MG42
04-11-2010, 10:47 PM
...There's still plenty of time but I'd just like people to know that the entire team is on notice. We love our team and will always love our team but I think its time for the team to get results.......

Puts things in perspective, thanks Boris, just one question though, how is the team on notice?

Boris
04-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Puts things in perspective, thanks Boris, just one question though, how is the team on notice?

They arent getting a free ride.
We as supporters are quick to jump on management. Some responsibility needs to land on the players. We dont expect a perfect season, we know we will win and loose games.

As supporters, we expect the players to give it their 100% for 90 minutes. Wear the crest with pride.

Not to say they dont, or there arent players whom already do....this is the minimum expectations from supporters

ParadymeTFC
04-11-2010, 11:01 PM
Toronto FC...

http://edbatista.typepad.com/edbatista/images/2007/03/Colbert_Notice.jpg

OMFG if they don't win on Thursday this needs to be made into a giant 50 foot banner.

grimm
04-12-2010, 02:30 AM
Just to state, I am not in favour of a protest.

1. Is there no diplomacy, can we not vote before the idea is completely shot down?
2. For us to expect to "loose" games is ridiculous, we should be upset. A protest would be towards the people making decisions of who's gonna be on the field, not who is on the field.
3. I think its a valid discussion, and that anyone who wishes to have it would be better off for doing so.

Just to clarify, I am not in favour of a protest. However, I believe a discussion would be prudent as opposed to being told NO.

twistedchinaman
04-12-2010, 03:51 AM
OMFG if they don't win on Thursday this needs to be made into a giant 50 foot banner.

+1,000,000,000.

Shakes McQueen
04-12-2010, 04:27 AM
OWNER:
All ownership needs to do, to reassure me, is fire Mo Johnston.

GM:
I don't think there is anything Mo can do, to get me back on his bandwagon. The hole he has dug is too deep to get out of, at this point. Four off-seasons we have needed a good striker and a good central defender, and four off-seasons he has delivered nothing but a conveyor belt of has-beens and never-weres. Our roster situation is a disaster.

COACH:
I refuse to pass judgment on Preki. He has been put into an impossible situation by the general manager. He has a team with a busload of midfielders, two strikers, and a patchwork, shallow defense. He has also been faced with a revolving door roster, that continues to this day - the conveyor belt of players still hasn't stopped, and we have now played three games! How you're supposed to imprint a system of play on these guys, and build any cohesion as a team (both on the field and off), under these circumstances, I do not know.

THE PLAYERS:
This is more difficult. I expect them to play hard, but at the end of the day, some of them just can't play - Garcia, for example. I don't think the guy is lazy. He's just terrible. Some of our more talented players are clearly suffering on the field too, because many links in the chain are utter garbage.

Ultimately the blame lies with the guy who keeps bringing garbage in, and that guy is Mo Johnston. And if MLSE don't make him pay for his crimes, preferably before the end of this season, then blame lies with them too.

- Scott

Daveisonfire
04-12-2010, 05:31 AM
Hear hear

FluSH
04-12-2010, 05:50 AM
Just to state, I am not in favour of a protest.

1. Is there no diplomacy, can we not vote before the idea is completely shot down?
2. For us to expect to "loose" games is ridiculous, we should be upset. A protest would be towards the people making decisions of who's gonna be on the field, not who is on the field.
3. I think its a valid discussion, and that anyone who wishes to have it would be better off for doing so.

Just to clarify, I am not in favour of a protest. However, I believe a discussion would be prudent as opposed to being told NO.

I am not in favour of a protest either... at least not for the first game. We do have diplomacy (voting) but that is with our members and in our Member's only section. We have a similar thread like this obtaining the opinion of our group... There are a lot of people on this board that are regulars but are not members... well if you want action... I strongly recommend to apply to our group and get involved... otherwise your voice would just be that... of a single voice.

Marianne
04-12-2010, 06:44 AM
Well said Boris.

Marianne
04-12-2010, 06:48 AM
OMG... I wish I hadn't just had a sip of coffee when I saw this.
Hysterical (sadly). I can actually hear his voice saying this. I'm hoping with every fibre of my being we don't lose on Thursday, but if we do, is there any way we could get Colbert to say this for us?

Maybe we could get the show's attention by saying Bitchy has a huge crush on Stephen Jr. or something.

Toronto FC...

http://edbatista.typepad.com/edbatista/images/2007/03/Colbert_Notice.jpg

Mark in Ottawa
04-12-2010, 06:58 AM
Thanks Boris. Yes we are football fans and supporters and so we are behind the team but we are also consumers. We expect good value for the money and time we invest. If we don't get the returns we expect I am sure that each of us individually can take small steps to point out to the corporation that we expect better.

As to the team... we are the "12 man" right??
The last thing we expect from our teammates is for them to give up and neither should we.
Bring the energy ... it's what we all do best... so lets play "our" game and be proud of our efforts when the match is done!

trane
04-12-2010, 07:03 AM
OWNER:
All ownership needs to do, to reassure me, is fire Mo Johnston.

GM:
I don't think there is anything Mo can do, to get me back on his bandwagon. The hole he has dug is too deep to get out of, at this point. Four off-seasons we have needed a good striker and a good central defender, and four off-seasons he has delivered nothing but a conveyor belt of has-beens and never-weres. Our roster situation is a disaster.

COACH:
I refuse to pass judgment on Preki. He has been put into an impossible situation by the general manager. He has a team with a busload of midfielders, two strikers, and a patchwork, shallow defense. He has also been faced with a revolving door roster, that continues to this day - the conveyor belt of players still hasn't stopped, and we have now played three games! How you're supposed to imprint a system of play on these guys, and build any cohesion as a team (both on the field and off), under these circumstances, I do not know.

THE PLAYERS:
This is more difficult. I expect them to play hard, but at the end of the day, some of them just can't play - Garcia, for example. I don't think the guy is lazy. He's just terrible. Some of our more talented players are clearly suffering on the field too, because many links in the chain are utter garbage.

Ultimately the blame lies with the guy who keeps bringing garbage in, and that guy is Mo Johnston. And if MLSE don't make him pay for his crimes, preferably before the end of this season, then blame lies with them too.

- Scott

Yes, to get rid of Mo is clearly step one, but who they replace them with will be their test. Preki, I agree it is too early, but I have to say I that with each passing game question marks are being raised, because no matter what the team seems unprepared, even if you have eleven guys those eleven guys should be ready when the season starts, starting Garcia raises a question. Sure we may be short on defenders, but you know there is not rule that says we have to start 4 at the back. I hope he is not an inflexible thinker. However, ultimately I was happy when he was hired, and he deserves more time, I agree. He ma yet proof he is just what we need. The players, proof is in the pudding, but first lets deal with leadership, then they will deal with the roster.

Boris, I agree with you in regard to the approach. We need to send a clear message, but it is too early for a protest. I liked CB's idea of pink slips for Mo.

Pookie
04-12-2010, 07:10 AM
Boris, the thing that concerns me about "finding the root cause" is that the cause it likely to be complex and may not end with the thing that most protests are geared towards.

For example, Mo is a target of our frustration. Fire Mo is the proposed solution. It's easy, it's visible and makes us feel good over the short term.

The issue is that firing Mo may not solve anything.

If the root cause of our situation is that our scouting staff equates to one guy and a single sports agency, none of that will change with handing Mo a pink slip.

Hell, the assistant GM has what 3 days of experience on the job?

So, one tangible outcome to protesting might be an improved scouting staff and resources ahead of the rest of the league. How much? I don't know because it is almost impossible to get that information.

The challenge with that is that those improvements would yield a solid group of players... down the road. The team may still go on losing for a couple of weeks, months or even years before you realize a benefit of that investment. Sort of like the G.I.C as an investment tool. It's a long term, conservative approach but almost guaranteed to improve your situation.

It's not a sexy protest though. It's hard to get behind because it is complex. For that reason I feel we'll settle for band aids and end up with the same results.

I was encouraged by your comment about the "root cause." Hopefully, we can identify it (or them) and get fully behind them as a SG... even if they aren't immediately tangible.

Oldtimer
04-12-2010, 07:56 AM
Agreed, and well stated. Our credibility means not jumping the gun too soon.

It's too early to march saying "we deserve butter."

I am not in favour of a walkout or any such nonsense.

We need to support the boys on the pitch.

However, if MO MUST GO spontaneously breaks out at the end of the game, I will join in. :D I won't be starting such a chant yet, I'm waiting for game 5.

Oldtimer
04-12-2010, 07:58 AM
The issue is that firing Mo may not solve anything.

If the root cause of our situation is that our scouting staff equates to one guy and a single sports agency, none of that will change with handing Mo a pink slip.


It depends on 2 things.

(1) A willingness of MLSE to fund proper scouting. I believe that will is there.

(2) A GM without close ties to one single agency. If we substitute some other agency for First Wave, we are no better off.

koryo
04-12-2010, 08:00 AM
Spot on Boris. Protesting Thursday is too early and accomplishes nothing. We just look like we're throwing our toys out of the pram.

Booing Garcia every time he touches the ball on Thursday, on the other hand, is well warranted.

Wull
04-12-2010, 08:16 AM
Is booing garcia's every mention and touch going to help the team on Thursday though? I know why we all want to do it and I agree he should be nowhere near a jersey but I think all it's going to do is shatter what little confidence he has and be a detriment to the whole team. Can we at least wait until he makes a mistake and then demand he be subbed?

DangerRed
04-12-2010, 08:21 AM
Funny anecdote: a Red Star Belgrade supporters group in the 1990s felt that the team wasn't putting in a full effort, so they dropped by their practice and beat the shit out of them with bats. They then held a press conference to explain to journalists that they felt the team wasn't showing full commitment.

koryo
04-12-2010, 08:26 AM
Is booing garcia's every mention and touch going to help the team on Thursday though? I know why we all want to do it and I agree he should be nowhere near a jersey but I think all it's going to do is shatter what little confidence he has and be a detriment to the whole team. Can we at least wait until he makes a mistake and then demand he be subbed?

That's fair.

Steve
04-12-2010, 08:27 AM
Is booing garcia's every mention and touch going to help the team on Thursday though? I know why we all want to do it and I agree he should be nowhere near a jersey but I think all it's going to do is shatter what little confidence he has and be a detriment to the whole team. Can we at least wait until he makes a mistake and then demand he be subbed?

I agree. I hate Garcia and think he needs to be benched forever, but I can't bring myself to boo him during a game. Frankly, my motivation is to win the game, and I can't see how booing him will help that. After the game? Sure, but not during the game.

I usually look forward to home openers because of the tangible excitement of the crowd. After a long off-season, people are usually up for the game, excited to see the hometown boys back on the pitch. I'm actually quite worried that on Thursday the crowd is going to be mostly sullen, and the magic of opening day will be destroyed. Oh well, I guess magic always fades with time, I just wish that, for this game at least, we could get excited about the team again, even if we're back to bitching about them the next game.

flatpicker
04-12-2010, 08:27 AM
If Garcia screws up, I would be ok with a "Stop doing that!" chant.

Oldtimer
04-12-2010, 08:32 AM
Funny anecdote: a Red Star Belgrade supporters group in the 1990s felt that the team wasn't putting in a full effort, so they dropped by their practice and beat the shit out of them with bats. They then held a press conference to explain to journalists that they felt the team wasn't showing full commitment.

I don't find that funny.

Actually, no one can fault the commitment of the team, it's clear they gave 100%. The problem is, that with the roster mismanagement and the complete rebuild by Preki, the current squad simply isn't good enough.

sashavukelich
04-12-2010, 08:46 AM
OWNER:
All ownership needs to do, to reassure me, is fire Mo Johnston.

GM:
I don't think there is anything Mo can do, to get me back on his bandwagon. The hole he has dug is too deep to get out of, at this point. Four off-seasons we have needed a good striker and a good central defender, and four off-seasons he has delivered nothing but a conveyor belt of has-beens and never-weres. Our roster situation is a disaster.

COACH:
I refuse to pass judgment on Preki. He has been put into an impossible situation by the general manager. He has a team with a busload of midfielders, two strikers, and a patchwork, shallow defense. He has also been faced with a revolving door roster, that continues to this day - the conveyor belt of players still hasn't stopped, and we have now played three games! How you're supposed to imprint a system of play on these guys, and build any cohesion as a team (both on the field and off), under these circumstances, I do not know.

THE PLAYERS:
This is more difficult. I expect them to play hard, but at the end of the day, some of them just can't play - Garcia, for example. I don't think the guy is lazy. He's just terrible. Some of our more talented players are clearly suffering on the field too, because many links in the chain are utter garbage.

Ultimately the blame lies with the guy who keeps bringing garbage in, and that guy is Mo Johnston. And if MLSE don't make him pay for his crimes, preferably before the end of this season, then blame lies with them too.

- Scott

shakes, couldn't agree more man. i don't post a lot, but i tend to agree with most of what you say.

sashavukelich
04-12-2010, 08:47 AM
Funny anecdote: a Red Star Belgrade supporters group in the 1990s felt that the team wasn't putting in a full effort, so they dropped by their practice and beat the shit out of them with bats. They then held a press conference to explain to journalists that they felt the team wasn't showing full commitment.

my family are red-star fans, and my god father even played for them in the 70's (Pero Solic).

That's shocking though man..

prizby
04-12-2010, 09:04 AM
two cents:

I wish all the players on the field had the passion for TFC that the fans on Saturday showed. I don't fully believe that all the players want to live and die for the team like the fans & I think as fans, win or lose, all we really want to see is that love for the team that we have be shown by all the players who don the Toronto FC jersey.

I have put my heart into this team. I am proud to say it is my team and I only wish for all the players (cuz some of them do) to say win or lose, I left it all on the field because that is what I want to do.


I think if you ask any fan on this board, a super majority of them would say they would rather (I have to pick my words closely here) and underclassed? team that left it all on the field and gave 150% everytime then a team that uses TFC as a pay check or a stepping stone or something like that.

Last year fans got on Rohan Ricketts case a bit when it was $$ vs. performance, but I fully believe he fits as one of these types of players who when it came down to play during the games, he was one of those that wanted to win it for the fans and give it his all despite some short comings

Redcoe15
04-12-2010, 09:08 AM
Been away from this site for awhile as I had important issues to take care of. Saw parts of the game Saturday, gave up completely after Garcia coughed up another goal. I'm very frustrated with the play of this team and wonder if, instead of a playoff spot, they'll be fighting to avoid a wooden spoon.

After going through all the posts, tinged with anger, frustration, and angst over the developments of this team, this line sum it up best:


There's still plenty of time but I'd just like people to know that the entire team is on notice. We love our team and will always love our team but I think its time for the team to get results.......

Thanks Boris for putting the proper words in context.

:scarf:

scooter
04-12-2010, 09:10 AM
i sure do agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread
i didnt even come online yesterday i was in a state of disbelief

but its the opener and we need to support first and foremost
see you all there

Redcoe15
04-12-2010, 09:12 AM
Frightening anecdote: a Red Star Belgrade supporters group in the 1990s felt that the team wasn't putting in a full effort, so they dropped by their practice and beat the shit out of them with bats. They then held a press conference to explain to journalists that they felt the team wasn't showing full commitment.

Fixed, as there's nothing remotely funny about that.

Whoop
04-12-2010, 09:23 AM
The structure at TFC, as it has been pointed out, is flawed.

So Mo gets fired? Who replaces him? Well on an interim basis it could be Jim Brennan and Preki, but really they should not be running the team come next year.

But then you bring a new guy in, does he keep Jim Brennan and Preki? If you're a new guy don't you want to bring in your own guys?

Who is making Mo Johnston accountable? Anselmi? Who makes Anselmi accountable for hiring Johnston?

I think get rid of Johnston is the start, but it appears that more and more there are deeper problems than just Mo. The whole culture at TFC is becoming more and more poisoned to the point it's infecting lots of other areas.

Whoop
04-12-2010, 09:24 AM
Which was group that made fake gravestones for the players?

alex andrew
04-12-2010, 09:39 AM
yes boris, well said !

i don't know, i don't know.

if preki would have substituted garcia at half time, and jdg was introduced , and if the game would have ended with a win or a tie, garcia would have been running for mayor right now.

i still believe coaching is sub par !

DangerRed
04-12-2010, 10:20 AM
I don't find that funny.

Actually, no one can fault the commitment of the team, it's clear they gave 100%. The problem is, that with the roster mismanagement and the complete rebuild by Preki, the current squad simply isn't good enough.

I agree the squad isn't good enough, for sure, but there are problems with commitment as well. For instance, maybe I'm from a different school, but to me it's unacceptable that JDG would shake his head at a team-mate who just made a shitty pass.

There's no place for that. If he's so high and mighty, he should've stayed at La Coruna (yes, I know they didn't want him).

And that's just the tip of it. Look at the run-backs when we get counterattacked. Looked how slow and plodding they are. There are definitely guys who are giving their all, but there are others who are more tentative than anything else.

Sometimes you just want to say "who do you guys think you are?"

As you point out, this isn't exactly a bunch of Lionel Messis running around out there.

DangerRed
04-12-2010, 10:21 AM
Fixed, as there's nothing remotely funny about that.

Oh GOD. Yes, yes, it's frightening. Let's all shudder in disgust at the inappropriateness of that anectode.:facepalm:

Pookie
04-12-2010, 10:27 AM
Preki isn't getting the results but if rumours are true and he is benching guys, well known guys for lack of effort and another guy for missing curfew... well, I like that.

All for One needs to mean something.

TFC Cityboy
04-12-2010, 10:36 AM
Boris- with you all the way on this, mate.
We know that people at TFC/MLSE read what is on this site, and you present an excellent message that shows us as the responsible group of passionate supporters that we are.
We are the passion in the stands...and a by-product of passion is occasionally conflict with the one you love.

It's a statement to MLSE....sort it out or face the consequences.

KdotOdot
04-12-2010, 10:39 AM
Funny anecdote: a Red Star Belgrade supporters group in the 1990s felt that the team wasn't putting in a full effort, so they dropped by their practice and beat the shit out of them with bats. They then held a press conference to explain to journalists that they felt the team wasn't showing full commitment.

Also funny is how Red star won the Euro the same year.


HMMMMMMM.

Louisville's by the parking lot?

Pookie
04-12-2010, 10:39 AM
Perhaps if a protest is waged, you could use some of Tom Anselmi's words:

"For sure. You think I'm happy? Not a chance. This is about winning, this business. … Do I empathize with our fans? Absolutely," Anselmi admitted.

So, will Johnston still be employed if Toronto fails to qualify for the playoffs in 2010?

"I'm not going to speculate about next year at all, other than to say we've got a job to do and the job is about making the payoffs and that is 100 per cent of our focus," Anselmi said.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/11/02/sp-anselmi-tfc-johnston.html#ixzz0ktuia6hY

denime
04-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Oh GOD. Yes, yes, it's frightening. Let's all shudder in disgust at the inappropriateness of that anectode.:facepalm:

First of all your post has nothing to do with the topic,secondly it's not an anecdote because that never happened.

You are trying to sell the anecdote how Delije beat the most successful team in their history.Team that won 3 national championships ,European championship ,World Club Championship between 1989-1991.
They beat players like Savicevic,Piksi,Pancev,Binic,Prosinecki,Belodedic, Stojanovic,Mihajlovic?

C'mon we did many things in our past but beating our own players wasn't one of them,at least not 1990.

Now :topic:

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 10:50 AM
Perhaps if a protest is waged, you could use some of Tom Anselmi's words:

"For sure. You think I'm happy? Not a chance. This is about winning, this business. … Do I empathize with our fans? Absolutely," Anselmi admitted.

So, will Johnston still be employed if Toronto fails to qualify for the playoffs in 2010?

"I'm not going to speculate about next year at all, other than to say we've got a job to do and the job is about making the payoffs and that is 100 per cent of our focus," Anselmi said.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/11/02/sp-anselmi-tfc-johnston.html#ixzz0ktuia6hY


From the same article, he also said:


"I think you have to look at things in context, and the context is that the GM's responsibility is to provide overall leadership and vision for the franchise, to put a roster together, to build the infrastructure [in terms of] coaching, youth academy, scouting and development systems.

"That's what the job has been about for the past three years, and I think Mo has done a good job."

Corporate-speak. The GM's job here isn't to win championships, it's a management job.

After three seasons they're still talking about, "building infrastructure." Do we think Seattle is still "building infrastructure," or do we think it's in place? What about RSL, are they still building it or did they do all that in their first year?

We get these little hints about what goes on behind the scenes and it really doesn't look like it's run the way one of the most profitable teams in the league should be run. It sounds like the team wasn't given everything it needed to compete from the beginning. It sounds like the "five year plan" came from above the GM position and infrastructure was built (is still being built) over many seasons.

Shaughno
04-12-2010, 10:56 AM
Which was group that made fake gravestones for the players?

Wasn't it Hadjuk I believe?



some huge losses in cro championship have made the fans very angry and fans showed their feelings best when some of them broken into poljud stadium overnight and dug out 11 holes symbolizing 11 graves.



Also funny is how Red star won the Euro the same year.


HMMMMMMM.

Louisville's by the parking lot?

Motivation at it's best...

Whoop
04-12-2010, 10:57 AM
Thanks Shags.

I knew it was one of the Balkan teams.

denime
04-12-2010, 11:00 AM
Thanks Shags.

I knew it was one of the Balkan teams.

Yeah,not something that we can be proud of,but that the way we are.

BTW,I think digging 11 holes in our new grass wouldn't help at all. ;)

rocktml
04-12-2010, 11:06 AM
I'm bringing my gf's brother to the game for the first time on Thursday I want the place to be rocking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KdotOdot
04-12-2010, 11:07 AM
Yeah,not something that we can be proud of,but that the way we are.

BTW,I think digging 11 holes in our new grass wouldn't help at all. ;)

We don't need to dig holes. Look how close to the lake the pitch is!

mastermixer
04-12-2010, 11:18 AM
two cents:

I wish all the players on the field had the passion for TFC that the fans on Saturday showed. I don't fully believe that all the players want to live and die for the team like the fans & I think as fans, win or lose, all we really want to see is that love for the team that we have be shown by all the players who don the Toronto FC jersey.

I have put my heart into this team. I am proud to say it is my team and I only wish for all the players (cuz some of them do) to say win or lose, I left it all on the field because that is what I want to do.


I think if you ask any fan on this board, a super majority of them would say they would rather (I have to pick my words closely here) and underclassed? team that left it all on the field and gave 150% everytime then a team that uses TFC as a pay check or a stepping stone or something like that.

Last year fans got on Rohan Ricketts case a bit when it was $$ vs. performance, but I fully believe he fits as one of these types of players who when it came down to play during the games, he was one of those that wanted to win it for the fans and give it his all despite some short comings

The one true player I see wanting to play for the team and the fans is Barrett. At the post-game interview he practically called for a TFC win on Thursday. I really hope he has a solid year.

jloome
04-12-2010, 11:23 AM
Oh GOD. Yes, yes, it's frightening. Let's all shudder in disgust at the inappropriateness of that anectode.:facepalm:

Some people don't get gallows humour, that's all dude. Tell them "funny in an "itchy and scratchy" kinda way" and everyone gets it.

jabbronies
04-12-2010, 11:46 AM
I don't think it's the entire team that isn't trying on the field. So to crucify them all is not the best way to go abouts doing things.

I think we need to target the people who are at fault here. Mo, Preki, Garcia...anyone else?

Roogsy
04-12-2010, 12:03 PM
A protest at this point in the season is the equivalent of a premature ejaculation.

Come on, we gotta have a little endurance here people. :hump:

That being said...the soccer operations of this team should be thoroughly embarrassed at what they are giving supporters who have put up with this garbage for over 3 seasons now.

What is mind-boggling is that this isn't rocket science. Building a team isn't easy, but it ain't as hard as MLSE and TFC are making it out to be.

Have a process, put it in place. They don't even have that much. This is all "by the seat" of their pants.

tfcleeds
04-12-2010, 12:06 PM
Seattle and RSL sure don't make building a team look like rocket science...

boban
04-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Seattle and RSL sure don't make building a team look like rocket science...
RSL struggled for their few 3 or seasons. Their first 2 were beyond pathetic.

Roogsy
04-12-2010, 12:15 PM
RSL struggled for their few 3 or seasons. Their first 2 were beyond pathetic.


Every team struggles. Every team makes mistakes. The key is to identify where things are going wrong and correct them as opposed to letting them too long. RSL did that. TFC isn't.

It seems like MLSE's modus operandi is to simply ignore the problem far longer than a good manager would, not just with TFC, with all their sports properties. They simply don't have any "sports" people at the helm that can tell when things are going wrong until it shows up in their financial results or when they see enough media pressure. Until then, it really is a case of being stuck in the "ivory tower" and having no clue what is going on in the trenches.

tfcleeds
04-12-2010, 12:15 PM
RSL struggled for their few 3 or seasons. Their first 2 were beyond pathetic.

Regardless, they've won a championship. And they certainly look to be among the contenders this year as well.

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 12:19 PM
A protest at this point in the season is the equivalent of a premature ejaculation.

Come on, we gotta have a little endurance here people. :hump:

That being said...the soccer operations of this team should be thoroughly embarrassed at what they are giving supporters who have put up with this garbage for over 3 seasons now.

What is mind-boggling is that this isn't rocket science. Building a team isn't easy, but it ain't as hard as MLSE and TFC are making it out to be.

Have a process, put it in place. They don't even have that much. This is all "by the seat" of their pants.


Well it really looks like they decided to, "put it in place" over many years. Vancouver is going to come into the league ready to compete the same way Seattle did.

RSL struggled, but while they were struggling on the field they were putting things in place off the field and didn't leave it all up to Kries and his agent.

It isn't rocket science but it can be expensive and it really looks like TFC wanted lot of money coming in before any went out - certainly more so than Seattle.

In may actually be sound short-term business planning, but what wil it do to the long-term?

KdotOdot
04-12-2010, 12:23 PM
Man I love the fact that we even have a soccer team in the city. I have NO illusions of how shit we are. I don't expect them to even look in the direction of the cup this year. I'll be happy if all of the games end 4-1. shit, at least we scored!

FluSH
04-12-2010, 12:25 PM
RSL struggled for their few 3 or seasons. Their first 2 were beyond pathetic.

If this team falters this year there will be a HUGE drop in support... People have Families, Career Paths, REAL LIFE.

These are some real sacrifices our Members are doing for this team... I heard many people talking already about not going to away games... I could have saved all the money from my away games and taken my family to Disneyworld twice by now...

The risk is real... TFC FO needs to realize this.

Roogsy
04-12-2010, 12:27 PM
It reminds me of the credit crisis in the US. The main reason for the blow-up was the lack of vision and shortsightedness of market participants. In order to create immediate profits for the current year, they created products that would blow up later on, well after bonuses have been paid. Just the same, MLSE is capitalizing nicely on the buzz TFC has created, but they've failed to do the due diligence in creating a sound, stable product that will hold it's value in the long term and instead have created a product that fails any true value test and can blow up in their face at any point.

That may work with the Leafs,where the fanbase has history to look back on and grab on to while waiting for the team to come around. TFC fans however, have no such history and nothing to keep them around if the ownership keeps throwing garbage on the pitch, no matter how pretty the new grass is. Eventually, they will leave. Especially since with the globalization of television broadcasts, a fan can easily watch Barcelona and Real Madrid instead of TFC vs New England. The only reason Leaf fans haven't gone elsewhere is because they have nowhere else to go. That is not the case with soccer and MLSE better be careful or they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

boban
04-12-2010, 12:27 PM
If this team falters this year there will be a HUGE drop in support... People have Families, Career Paths, REAL LIFE.

These are some real sacrifices our Members are doing for this team... I heard many people talking already about not going to away games... I could have saved all the money from my away games and taken my family to Disneyworld twice by now...

The risk is real... TFC FO needs to realize this.
Then go talk to Tannenbaum, Peddie and others on the board.

KdotOdot
04-12-2010, 12:30 PM
If this team falters this year there will be a HUGE drop in support... People have Families, Career Paths, REAL LIFE.

These are some real sacrifices our Members are doing for this team... I heard many people talking already about not going to away games... I could have saved all the money from my away games and taken my family to Disneyworld twice by now...

The risk is real... TFC FO needs to realize this.


Thats why I didn't gp tp Boston. Fuck'em. I'll support at home at BMO and in MOntreal mostly because I hate Montreal, but I'm not dragging myself 1000 klicks to go see them lose over and over and over again.

Whoop
04-12-2010, 12:31 PM
Toronto Rock.... years of sell outs, championships...

A couple of bad front office decisions, alienating the fan base/season ticket holders saying "we know what we're doing" when they didn't, team sucks for a couple of years.

Team is doing slightly better this year.

Attendance at last home game. 9108.

With no history... people will walk away.

DangerRed
04-12-2010, 12:43 PM
If this team falters this year there will be a HUGE drop in support... People have Families, Career Paths, REAL LIFE.

These are some real sacrifices our Members are doing for this team... I heard many people talking already about not going to away games... I could have saved all the money from my away games and taken my family to Disneyworld twice by now...

The risk is real... TFC FO needs to realize this.

Quite fucking true.

FluSH
04-12-2010, 12:44 PM
Then go talk to Tannenbaum, Peddie and others on the board.

I'm calling them right now... just taking a coffee break first.

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 12:47 PM
It reminds me of the credit crisis in the US. The main reason for the blow-up was the lack of vision and shortsightedness of market participants. In order to create immediate profits for the current year, they created products that would blow up later on, well after bonuses have been paid. Just the same, MLSE is capitalizing nicely on the buzz TFC has created, but they've failed to do the due diligence in creating a sound, stable product that will hold it's value in the long term and instead have created a product that fails any true value test and can blow up in their face at any point.




This really seems to be the issue. The poduct on the field is really only the tip of the iceberg, what else ave they been doing? RSL signed a deal with Real Madrid, New York is now part of a much bigger soccer company, Vancouver brought in a senior executive from the EPL and an executive from North America. What did TFC do? They dressed their only scout to play a game in season three. They finally hired a completely inexpienced assistant GM in season four.

It really doesn't seem like they've been in much of a hurry to "build infrastruture," and they have no excuses. This is one of the few profitable teams in the league and the company itself doesn't reall have to worry about short-term cash-flow, do they?

ManUtd4ever
04-12-2010, 01:00 PM
If this team falters this year there will be a HUGE drop in support... People have Families, Career Paths, REAL LIFE.

These are some real sacrifices our Members are doing for this team... I heard many people talking already about not going to away games... I could have saved all the money from my away games and taken my family to Disneyworld twice by now...

The risk is real... TFC FO needs to realize this.


It reminds me of the credit crisis in the US. The main reason for the blow-up was the lack of vision and shortsightedness of market participants. In order to create immediate profits for the current year, they created products that would blow up later on, well after bonuses have been paid. Just the same, MLSE is capitalizing nicely on the buzz TFC has created, but they've failed to do the due diligence in creating a sound, stable product that will hold it's value in the long term and instead have created a product that fails any true value test and can blow up in their face at any point.

That may work with the Leafs,where the fanbase has history to look back on and grab on to while waiting for the team to come around. TFC fans however, have no such history and nothing to keep them around if the ownership keeps throwing garbage on the pitch, no matter how pretty the new grass is. Eventually, they will leave. Especially since with the globalization of television broadcasts, a fan can easily watch Barcelona and Real Madrid instead of TFC vs New England. The only reason Leaf fans haven't gone elsewhere is because they have nowhere else to go. That is not the case with soccer and MLSE better be careful or they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

Excellent posts, and I couldn't agree more. I think MLSE realizes that TFC is a different animal when it comes to the loyalty factor of the fan base as a whole. Supporter groups alone cannot sellout BMO Field or sustain the current substantial flow of revenue for merchandise sales. If TFC does falter again this season I'm certain MoJo will be replaced. I just hope that by the time the inevitable happens, fan apathy has not set in to the point of no return...

boban
04-12-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm calling them right now... just taking a coffee break first.
Coffee break is over. :tongue:

trane
04-12-2010, 01:33 PM
It reminds me of the credit crisis in the US. The main reason for the blow-up was the lack of vision and shortsightedness of market participants. In order to create immediate profits for the current year, they created products that would blow up later on, well after bonuses have been paid. Just the same, MLSE is capitalizing nicely on the buzz TFC has created, but they've failed to do the due diligence in creating a sound, stable product that will hold it's value in the long term and instead have created a product that fails any true value test and can blow up in their face at any point.

That may work with the Leafs,where the fanbase has history to look back on and grab on to while waiting for the team to come around. TFC fans however, have no such history and nothing to keep them around if the ownership keeps throwing garbage on the pitch, no matter how pretty the new grass is. Eventually, they will leave. Especially since with the globalization of television broadcasts, a fan can easily watch Barcelona and Real Madrid instead of TFC vs New England. The only reason Leaf fans haven't gone elsewhere is because they have nowhere else to go. That is not the case with soccer and MLSE better be careful or they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg.


This is what I am afraid off. AND I will say this the supporters who do have a history of supporting other clubs, and understand that sometimes voiving your disatisfaction, need too do the right thing and go ahead and do, what has always worked with the top Football clubs around the world, when they are not delivering let them know. DO NOT PRETEND EVRYTHING IS HUNKY DORY. I agree with Boris that a proteest is too early, BUT, voicing our displeasure IS THE RIGHT THING.


Would AC Milan, BArca, Man U, Bayern supporters, name the team put up with three full years of almost complete shit, not fucking way. NOT even Canadiens supporters would have done that, and guess what they wone the cup what 10 times since the fucking Maple Leafs have. We need real change now.

Belfast_Boy
04-12-2010, 01:45 PM
OWNER:
All ownership needs to do, to reassure me, is fire Mo Johnston.

GM:
I don't think there is anything Mo can do, to get me back on his bandwagon. The hole he has dug is too deep to get out of, at this point. Four off-seasons we have needed a good striker and a good central defender, and four off-seasons he has delivered nothing but a conveyor belt of has-beens and never-weres. Our roster situation is a disaster.

COACH:
I refuse to pass judgment on Preki. He has been put into an impossible situation by the general manager. He has a team with a busload of midfielders, two strikers, and a patchwork, shallow defense. He has also been faced with a revolving door roster, that continues to this day - the conveyor belt of players still hasn't stopped, and we have now played three games! How you're supposed to imprint a system of play on these guys, and build any cohesion as a team (both on the field and off), under these circumstances, I do not know.

THE PLAYERS:
This is more difficult. I expect them to play hard, but at the end of the day, some of them just can't play - Garcia, for example. I don't think the guy is lazy. He's just terrible. Some of our more talented players are clearly suffering on the field too, because many links in the chain are utter garbage.

Ultimately the blame lies with the guy who keeps bringing garbage in, and that guy is Mo Johnston. And if MLSE don't make him pay for his crimes, preferably before the end of this season, then blame lies with them too.

- Scott


Yeah! what he said!

ilikemusic
04-12-2010, 01:54 PM
Im just glad people are finally coming around on Mo.

This league is shit. You dont need a 'three year plan' or anything of the sort. Every team has a revolving door of random players nobody has ever heard of. All Mo was ever doing by talking about a long term plan was covering his ass.

Seattle proved it last year and Philly is proving it this year. You can pull together a team from scratch and compete in this league.

Mo is incompetent, and he has been incompetent since day one.

It really is disgraceful that Mo still has his job. Im basically rooting for Philly to give us a drubbing on Thursday if only to incite change. And seeing as money is the only language MLSE seems to understand, im hoping to see a half empty stadium as well.

Pookie
04-12-2010, 02:28 PM
We get these little hints about what goes on behind the scenes and it really doesn't look like it's run the way one of the most profitable teams in the league should be run. It sounds like the team wasn't given everything it needed to compete from the beginning. It sounds like the "five year plan" came from above the GM position and infrastructure was built (is still being built) over many seasons.




Well, I think that the plan in the beginning was built around revenue that reflected drawing 14,000 fans.

Clearly, we exceeded expectations.

What we have to hope is that the original plan has been revised around the real numbers. We have to further hope that we (will) have the infrastructure of a top club and not that of a club that draws 14,000.

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 02:41 PM
Well, I think that the plan in the beginning was built around revenue that reflected drawing 14,000 fans.

Clearly, we exceeded expectations.

What we have to hope is that the original plan has been revised around the real numbers. We have to further hope that we (will) have the infrastructure of a top club and not that of a club that draws 14,000.

Yes, I suppose all we can do is hope. But as long as we accept that every problem in the entire team comes down to one management position, there's little reason to expect the original plan to change - it just means more profits. The infrastructure is likely coming at the same pace it was planned from the beginning - by five years it'll be in place. There's really no pressure to do it any sooner.

Pookie
04-12-2010, 02:42 PM
^ other than missed playoff revenue (MLS and CCL)

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 02:59 PM
^ other than missed playoff revenue (MLS and CCL)


Looking at the experiences with their other teams, I doubt very much that playoff revenue ever figure into the profit projections. Oh sure, the team GMs will change if they don't make the playoffs for enough years in a row, but nothing else in the business plan will change.

boban
04-12-2010, 03:01 PM
Well, I think that the plan in the beginning was built around revenue that reflected drawing 14,000 fans.

Clearly, we exceeded expectations.

What we have to hope is that the original plan has been revised around the real numbers. We have to further hope that we (will) have the infrastructure of a top club and not that of a club that draws 14,000.
I don't understand this.

Before one competitive ball was kicked in MLS TFC exceeded all expectations ten fold. What does this mean? it means there should never have been a plan of a team hovering around 14,000 spectators once game 1 started.
MLSE was inept from the beginning. Plain and simple.

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 03:08 PM
I don't understand this.

Before one competitive ball was kicked in MLS TFC exceeded all expectations ten fold. What does this mean? it means there should never have been a plan of a team hovering around 14,000 spectators once game 1 started.
MLSE was inept from the beginning. Plain and simple.

Not inept at all, they were, and still are, shrewd. They put together a plan based on 14,000 tickets sold and some amount of merchandise and then before a single game was played exceeded the numbers but didn't change their plan - just made more profits (probably more profits than a couple of playoff games would have brought in). They stuck to the plan, they got a DP in season three, grass for season four, maybe next year they'll get a South Amerian scout - their five year plan never changed.

In some ways I even admire them, shrewd businessmen who know their market and what it will bear so well. The next step will be bringing in a popular guy to run the team - a Steve Nicol (like a Brian Burke). That way they still won't have to step up investment in infrastructure because he'll have a three or four year honeymoon period with built-in excuses.

No wonder they never make changes above GM - those guys are doing great jobs.

boban
04-12-2010, 03:18 PM
In some ways I even admire them, shrewd businessmen who know their market and what it will bear so well. The next step will be bringing in a popular guy to run the team - a Steve Nicol (like a Brian Burke). That way they still won't have to step up investment in infrastructure because he'll have a three or four year honeymoon period with built-in excuses.

No wonder they never make changes above GM - those guys are doing great jobs.
I don't about that. I mean they fucked up the Marlies and miscalculated that market so bad that they will never get it back.
They are more lucky than anything else. Why do the Leafs draw so well on TV and at the ACC? it's the history. And it is history that MLSE had nothing to do with. The team's 11 cups were in the pre-expansion era which is not even close to the MLSE ownership time.
And as far as TFC, its the supporters groups and the fans who make the experience memorable. No MLSE exec was a genius in that.

Davenport
04-12-2010, 03:24 PM
Johnston has no idea how to build a squad. This team is in shambles.

MLSE has even less knowlege of the game of soccer.

We could not have a worse owner for the club.

We're fukced for this season.......completely, and we'll be rebuilding next year as well.

What a joke.

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 03:26 PM
^ Yes, you're right. They certainly overestimated the market for the Marlies. I wonder if that's one of the things that has kept investment in TFC so low?

It is more luck than anything, for sure. But they do know how to make profits without playoffs. If you;re a shareholder that's good news.

tfc2007
04-12-2010, 03:28 PM
WHat happened to unconditional support?.... I will always support TFC. I may not be happy, but ever game i go to I will continue to give my support to the boys on the field.

boban
04-12-2010, 03:32 PM
^ Yes, you're right. They certainly overestimated the market for the Marlies. I wonder if that's one of the things that has kept investment in TFC so low?
Why? The people are there.. Now you have to spend to keep them.
The Marlies people were there, but they thought they could charge and arm and a leg for tickets and ride the coat tails of the Leafs name somehow on that. People told them different. They would come to AHL games, but at a reasonable price.
The money (revenue) is there for TFC too. You just need a vision from above to see how this team could be built into a special soccer team (in NA terms).

boban
04-12-2010, 03:36 PM
It is more luck than anything, for sure. But they do know how to make profits without playoffs. If you;re a shareholder that's good news.
It's the Leafs history making them money.
Put them in Columbus or some other market with no history and I would like to see how MLSE would make money. If they could, then they would get my respect.

Pookie
04-12-2010, 03:40 PM
I don't understand this.

Before one competitive ball was kicked in MLS TFC exceeded all expectations ten fold. What does this mean? it means there should never have been a plan of a team hovering around 14,000 spectators once game 1 started.
MLSE was inept from the beginning. Plain and simple.

The plan was built in 2005 in support of building BMO Field. Lots of planning went into place well before the first ball was kicked. Keep in mind too that they didn't sell out their season tickets until Beckham was signed (selling over 1,000 that first day).

Anyways, those were the numbers provided to the City, Province and Feds in order to secure the building of BMO Field... or more correctly the building of the FIFA U20 stadium using public funds. This was done in 2005.

MLSE came into the fold with additional capital and agreed to acquire an MLS team in order to gain a share of the management rights within the stadium.

At the time, MLS averaged 14,967 fans per game.

They discussed the poor attendance of the Toronto Blizzard as the downside to that forecast. They also discussed soccer's increasing popularity as an upside.

This is a great link to get an idea of the background behind this stadium. It is very interesting to me in that Toronto FC was an afterthought in the campaign and yet it has now become the driver.

http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document%201%20Appendix%20C%20-%20BMO%20Toronto%20Report.pdf

Beach_Red
04-12-2010, 03:46 PM
Why? The people are there.. Now you have to spend to keep them.
The Marlies people were there, but they thought they could charge and arm and a leg for tickets and ride the coat tails of the Leafs name somehow on that. People told them different. They would come to AHL games, but at a reasonable price.
The money (revenue) is there for TFC too. You just need a vision from above to see how this team could be built into a special soccer team (in NA terms).

But as you say, they didn't create that specialness with the Leafs, they bought it already in place. They haven't exactly made the Raptors special, so perhaps they have enough self-awareness to realize it's not something they can do. Or not something they're willing to put the necessary effort (risk, expense) into because they can have a non-special team with no vision and still make a profit.

Could TFC fall to the point of other MLS teams and still be profitble? That may be acceptable to them.

boban
04-12-2010, 03:49 PM
The plan was built in 2005 in support of building BMO Field. Lots of planning went into place well before the first ball was kicked. Keep in mind too that they didn't sell out their season tickets until Beckham was signed (selling over 1,000 that first day).
And once game 1 rolls around you change plans. Flexibility is strength. ;)
You get a DP in mid-season 1. Start of season 2 the latest.


Anyways, those were the numbers provided to the City, Province and Feds in order to secure the building of BMO Field... or more correctly the building of the FIFA U20 stadium using public funds. This was done in 2005.

MLSE came into the fold with additional capital and agreed to acquire an MLS team in order to gain a share of the management rights within the stadium.
Fed and Provincial financing was in place years before either MLSe was in the picture or MLSE finalized an MLS team. More correctly to say that the CSA had $45 million to build a stadium and MLSE was sniffing around to see if they could get in on the act.

Gixmo
04-12-2010, 04:24 PM
nice read Pookie!

ensco
04-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Pookie and I have crossed swords before on this. I think this interpretation is a fantasy.

The story in that link speaks more to the politics of how multi-billion dollar corporations get government to put up the lion's share for their projects.

TFC, and the public use component, were always, together the driver for the NSS/BMO. The U 20 was simply the catalyst.

denime
04-12-2010, 04:52 PM
Im just glad people are finally coming around on Mo.

This league is shit. You dont need a 'three year plan' or anything of the sort. Every team has a revolving door of random players nobody has ever heard of. All Mo was ever doing by talking about a long term plan was covering his ass.

Seattle proved it last year and Philly is proving it this year. You can pull together a team from scratch and compete in this league.

Mo is incompetent, and he has been incompetent since day one.

It really is disgraceful that Mo still has his job. Im basically rooting for Philly to give us a drubbing on Thursday if only to incite change. And seeing as money is the only language MLSE seems to understand, im hoping to see a half empty stadium as well.


And I'm rooting that you will step overboard one more time so you can get banned for good and not come to this board and post anymore.


Do you really think you can come here and post how you cheer against TFC go to Philly SG site and cheer there for them. :troll:

DichioTFC
04-12-2010, 04:53 PM
well said Mr. President. too many Chicken Littles predicting doom. We had a close game in Columbus (best team in the league arguably) and a second half from hell in NE but the lads have been competitive. It's not their fault the tools aren't in place.

And also, if we consistently protest, we'll undermine DeRo as captain, which is entirely unfair to him.

Mark in Ottawa
04-12-2010, 06:30 PM
Ok... so work with me here. We are all upset because the team has had an inconsistent pre-season with a "musical chairs" roster and old faces, some popular and some not, disappearing from the TFC family...

Now... take a deep breath and admit to yourself just how good you would feel if TFC won their home opener or at least played a good consistent game with few glaring errors.

We need to support the players and bolster the spirits of those on the field and those in attendance. This is our mission... our duty... we should not shirk it.

KiwiRedsFan
04-12-2010, 06:33 PM
I like the above post. Love & support your team in good times and bad. That's what being a fan is all about.

It's only the start of the season, can't we give these guys a chance?

Bombonera
04-12-2010, 10:24 PM
THe guys deserve a chance. And it is wrong not to support them.

I feel pretty strongly though, and I am clearly not alone in thinking this, that Management has been wanting, and that we the fans have not been afforded the respect we deserve.

Clearly money is not the issue, and I do believe it has been shown by others that turf is not a legitimate excuse for medicrity.

So yes, we must cheer he boys on. But let's please not give MO and Co. a pass.

SHould the vision and the direction for the team not be shared with us? WHat's going on seems almost wierd.

Sure there will be some signings, but let's not forget that these are the people who continue to start GARCIA.

koryo
04-13-2010, 07:42 AM
well said Mr. President. too many Chicken Littles predicting doom. We had a close game in Columbus (best team in the league arguably) and a second half from hell in NE but the lads have been competitive. It's not their fault the tools aren't in place.

And also, if we consistently protest, we'll undermine DeRo as captain, which is entirely unfair to him.

I'm sorry, but are you honestly saying that how the players play is not their fault? Are you taking the piss? Do you mean to tell me that their absolved of any reponsibility regarding their dreadful form? Are you saying that it's not their fault that this year, as the three before it, they look unmotivated and uninspired?

I've never heard such rubbish in all of my life.

Management and players alike should be held responsible for the state of the team. What they both need is a hard kick up the backside.

This kid gloves stuff is really starting to annoy me.

Pookie
04-13-2010, 08:01 AM
Pookie and I have crossed swords before on this. I think this interpretation is a fantasy.


If it is a fantasy, your interpretation is one hell of a story isn't it? MLSE secures millions of public funds to bring a soccer team to life in Toronto? ;)

To me, "public use" was the vehicle through which the funds were made pallitable. I don't see that as the "driving force." A community use soccer pitch can be built for a heck of a lot less than $60M. Having rented BMO on a few occassions and being bumped each time for some "event", I can say that I certainly never felt as though my desire to use it trumped all else.

I simply think there was an opportunity provided by the U20 event that would secure some immediate revenue and provide that area of Toronto with some infrastructure and future revenue opportunities that could be exploited (see, hotel, new). They then sought to add more political elements in order to justify the spending. TFC/public use was part of the spin... not the reason for it.

Gazza
04-13-2010, 08:12 AM
"Toronto FC, Love it or leave it!" I've heard something similar before.

I already have unconditional support for one toronto sports team, i'm not about to have the same dedication to another failure. The players are just as much to blame as the management, but hopefully they'll take a long look in the mirror, come out inspired and turn this ship around...and hell if i'd ever cheer for another city over Toronto, that's absurd!

Grey skies are gonna clear up!...and so on...

boban
04-13-2010, 09:55 AM
If it is a fantasy, your interpretation is one hell of a story isn't it? MLSE secures millions of public funds to bring a soccer team to life in Toronto? ;)

To me, "public use" was the vehicle through which the funds were made pallitable. I don't see that as the "driving force." A community use soccer pitch can be built for a heck of a lot less than $60M. Having rented BMO on a few occassions and being bumped each time for some "event", I can say that I certainly never felt as though my desire to use it trumped all else.

I simply think there was an opportunity provided by the U20 event that would secure some immediate revenue and provide that area of Toronto with some infrastructure and future revenue opportunities that could be exploited (see, hotel, new). They then sought to add more political elements in order to justify the spending. TFC/public use was part of the spin... not the reason for it.
Your interpretation is off.
The public funding was always there before the final location was picked and before MLSE was even in the picture or a thought in the picture.

trane
04-13-2010, 10:20 AM
I'm sorry, but are you honestly saying that how the players play is not their fault? Are you taking the piss? Do you mean to tell me that their absolved of any reponsibility regarding their dreadful form? Are you saying that it's not their fault that this year, as the three before it, they look unmotivated and uninspired?

I've never heard such rubbish in all of my life.

Management and players alike should be held responsible for the state of the team. What they both need is a hard kick up the backside.

This kid gloves stuff is really starting to annoy me.

Why are you so negative? It is year 4 of the five year plan, it will take five years to make the playoffs, you are unreasonable to expect a team in the fourth year to come out of the gates prepared and to get in the playoffs. You are not a real supporter.

mastermixer
04-13-2010, 10:22 AM
Quick question to everyone.
If this team was assembled as it is in January instead of last week, would we have as much unease as we do with this team right now?

Davenport
04-13-2010, 10:30 AM
Quick question to everyone.
If this team was assembled as it is in January instead of last week, would we have as much unease as we do with this team right now?

The squad would be top heavy in average players from top to bottom.
The lack of real quality is obvious.
Along with a decent supporting cast, this is what we need now and what we've needed for 4 seasons:

A quality sweeper with pace who reads the game.
A creative/goalscoring midfielder.
A proven goalscorer.

Johnston should have realised this 3 years ago and he's done nothing about it.

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 10:34 AM
The problem is, that with the roster mismanagement and the complete rebuild by Preki, the current squad simply isn't good enough.

In all honesty the team was 1 point out of the playoffs. If either a CB or striker had been brought in TFC would be in the mix for the playoffs and didn't need a total overhaul (without considering the cap). The team was better when Preki got here than it is now.

I don't think anyone can say that DeRo, JDG, Frei or Nana aren't good enough. Look at the lineup in Boston. Nane, Hscanovics, Saric, LaBrocca and Gargan are all guys who got here after Preki, who he chose to come here. He also chose to not play Cronin. Preki has also continued to insist that Garcia is a quality defender.

It's the guys that Preki brought in or stands by over others that aren't good enough and not Mo's guys.

Shaughno
04-13-2010, 10:37 AM
That last line is a pretty bold statement considering we've seen very little of the team so far...

I think LaBrocca was one of our best players in the first half on Saturday. I'd like to see Gargan actually play midfield on the wing, instead of out of position at RB. Harden seems decent and I'd like to see how our backline shapes up with some practice and consistency in the lineup. I also think Saric looks like he'll be a fairly solid signing down the road.

trane
04-13-2010, 10:40 AM
I thought that we had the basis fo a good MLS team. I thought that Preki was the right coach. I thought Preki had time to prepare. What I have dissapointed about, is that we have not looked ready, not ready enough, and that Preki blew up the roster before finding replacments. I am also worried about a coach that is married to system, instead of finding the system to fit the players that he has.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 10:45 AM
There is a difference between disappointment and embarrassment.

When Toronto FC failed to win the NCC in 2008, I was disappointed. Supporting your team through thick and thin, you're always bound to be disappointed. There isn't one club which has never disappointed their supporters. It comes with the territory.

When Toronto FC won the NCC in 2009, it was more of a relief than a win. I was severely disappointed in the loss to Vancouver in Vancouver.

But as the season wore on, I was becoming more and more disappointed. The loss to Real Salt Lake, the loss to Puerto Rico, etc.

Yet somehow this team was still managing to fight for a playoff spot, giving us hope, despite the Nick Garcia own goal in Chicago, and the tie against San Jose.

Then the stinker in NY came along. And that crossed the line from disappointment to embarrassment. Again, clubs sometimes have embarrassing results. But in a big match like that, it hurt.

People vowed it would never happen again.

So 2010 rolled around changes have been made, except for one big one.

The team participates in the preseason and is seriously disappointing.

"It's only preseason," people cry. "We don't have a full team," people opine.

Yet the culture of losing, or rather failing to meet standards, still permeates.

The team goes into Columbus and is badly outplayed... disappointing but still not acceptable.

And then the result against New England... another embarrassing result.

I can live with disappointment.

Some would argue we shouldn't even tolerate disappointment.

However, I definitely cannot live with embarrassment.

And if the team continues to get embarrassed, that, in my opinion, is not tolerable.

And unfortunately I feel this team will be embarrassed a lot this year.

rocker
04-13-2010, 10:46 AM
I think in MLS you have to have a system and stick to it. You can't just be half-assed and try to work with what you were already given. That's gonna lead to mediocrity (see TFC under Cummins/Carver). The team had no identity. Just a collection of individuals acquired at various times and they struggled to make something out of it.

Nicol and Kinnear and Schmidt have clear systems and they find the players to fit those systems. Schmidt nuked the shit out of Columbus's roster when he started there, and finished near dead last. Then in year two, he tinkered more with the roster, and didn't make the playoffs. Then in his third year, he won MLS Cup. He didn't get to MLS Cup with the players from before his time there.

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 10:47 AM
That last line is a pretty bold statement considering we've seen very little of the team so far...

I think LaBrocca was one of our best players in the first half on Saturday. I'd like to see Gargan actually play midfield on the wing, instead of out of position at RB. Harden seems decent and I'd like to see how our backline shapes up with some practice and consistency in the lineup. I also think Saric looks like he'll be a fairly solid signing down the road.

All I'm trying to point out is that everyone seems to be all over the "Fire Mo" but it's unwarranted (based on this season only). A good coach should be able to get you the 1 point TFC was short.

If the goal was only to make the playoffs the team needed a fine tuning not an overhaul.

Shaughno
04-13-2010, 10:48 AM
I think in MLS you have to have a system and stick to it. You can't just be half-assed and try to work with what you were already given. That's gonna lead to mediocrity (see TFC under Cummins/Carver). The team had no identity. Just a collection of individuals acquired at various times and they struggled to make something out of it.

Nicol and Kinnear and Schmidt have clear systems and they find the players to fit those systems. Schmidt nuked the shit out of Columbus's roster when he started there, and finished near dead last. Then in year two, he tinkered more with the roster, and didn't make the playoffs. Then in his third year, he won MLS Cup. He didn't get to MLS Cup with the players from before his time there.


Exactly, and to me, that seems to be what Preki is doing. Bringing in players that will fit and work in his system.

Shaughno
04-13-2010, 10:49 AM
All I'm trying to point out is that everyone seems to be all over the "Fire Mo" but it's unwarranted (based on this season only). A good coach should be able to get you the 1 point TFC was short.

If the goal was only to make the playoffs the team needed a fine tuning not an overhaul.


See Rocker's post.

Besides that, with the team we had last year, I believe we would have been over the cap with no room to add any players.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 10:49 AM
If the goal was only to make the playoffs the team needed a fine tuning not an overhaul.

The goal, at the start of every season, is to win a championship, not merely make the playoffs.

And in year four, Toronto FC should be in a position to challenge for a championship, not merely make the playoffs.

trane
04-13-2010, 10:50 AM
^ I feel embarrassed that after 3 seasons of subpar performances, we do not have an universal cry for WE NEED CHANGE NOW.

I am disappointed by Preki so far, not that I think he will not turn it around, I just hoped that we would have been much more solid. I would have been OK with two 0-0 draws,I would have know that we were on the right track.

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 10:51 AM
Nicol and Kinnear and Schmidt have clear systems and they find the players to fit those systems. Schmidt nuked the shit out of Columbus's roster when he started there, and finished near dead last. Then in year two, he tinkered more with the roster, and didn't make the playoffs. Then in his third year, he won MLS Cup. He didn't get to MLS Cup with the players from before his time there.


My arguement to that is, wasn't it the goal to make the playoffs this year? I didn't hear that when Preki came in the team was going to be blown up.

Most GM's hire their own manager. If TFC doesn't make the playoffs and Mo is fired how many think Preki is going to be around to finish his tinkering project?

Preki was brought in to make the playoffs this year not in year 6.

trane
04-13-2010, 10:53 AM
I think in MLS you have to have a system and stick to it. You can't just be half-assed and try to work with what you were already given. That's gonna lead to mediocrity (see TFC under Cummins/Carver). The team had no identity. Just a collection of individuals acquired at various times and they struggled to make something out of it.

Nicol and Kinnear and Schmidt have clear systems and they find the players to fit those systems. Schmidt nuked the shit out of Columbus's roster when he started there, and finished near dead last. Then in year two, he tinkered more with the roster, and didn't make the playoffs. Then in his third year, he won MLS Cup. He didn't get to MLS Cup with the players from before his time there.

I agree some of this, but why was not more of this done in the off-season. As for the system you build toward the system you want. BUT untill you have your players for your system then you find s system that would best suite the players you do have, and do not try to make a starting CB out of a short pylon.

I agree with Stouvill RPB, Preki was brought in to make the playoffs this year, you do not need to be Barca or Inter to make the playoffs in this league, just well disciplied team. What you cannot afford, is what we have done every year, start playing 5 games in.

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 10:54 AM
The goal, at the start of every season, is to win a championship, not merely make the playoffs.

And in year four, Toronto FC should be in a position to challenge for a championship, not merely make the playoffs.

I 100% agree that should be the goal but we all know that the championship wasn't the goal this season.


See Rocker's post.

Besides that, with the team we had last year, I believe we would have been over the cap with no room to add any players.

That's why I mentioned the cap in my first post.

Belfast_Boy
04-13-2010, 10:54 AM
I agree with this, but why was not more of this done in the off-season. As for the system you build toward the system you want. BUT untill you have your players for your system then you find s system that would best suite the players you do have, and do not try to make a starting CB out of a short pylon.

exactly Trane!

Shaughno
04-13-2010, 10:55 AM
Has that been established? That might be Mo's goal, but personally, if I'm bringing in a coach like Preki... I'm looking to establish a system based off of a set of team goals. Did Sigi announce he was going to blow up the roster and start fresh? Probably not. He just did what he had to do.

Toronto sports fans are so fickle and impatient. You don't bring in a guy like Preki and expect him to work magic in one season, well Mo might. :lol:

Whoop
04-13-2010, 10:57 AM
I 100% agree that should be the goal but we all know that the championship wasn't the goal this season.


And that there should be enough to tell us that someone fucked up large.

trane
04-13-2010, 10:57 AM
^ No Shags, but do we look ready enough? I mean it, as a real question, do we look ready enought, even taking into account that Preki took over this offseason?


AND seriously WHY play Garcia at CB????????? Why not move Attakora in and play a Mid at RB, cronin for example? I am sorry but I think that any decent manager would have done something simialr, there is were I am afraid that he is too inflexible. (Again looking for you view not arguing)

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 10:59 AM
Toronto sports fans are so fickle and impatient. You don't bring in a guy like Preki and expect him to work magic in one season, well Mo might. :lol:

But why make wholesale changes when it isn't needed? So that you can win your way? Why not just win?

It is along the same lines as what trane was saying about the formation. So far it seems that it is his way or no way and instead of looking at what he has to work with he has just tossed players aside because they don't fit his mold.

Why start from nothing if you don't have to?

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 11:00 AM
And that there should be enough to tell us that someone fucked up large.

I don't think that anyone is denying that.

Beach_Red
04-13-2010, 11:01 AM
I agree some of this, but why was not more of this done in the off-season. As for the system you build toward the system you want. BUT untill you have your players for your system then you find s system that would best suite the players you do have, and do not try to make a starting CB out of a short pylon.

I agree with Stouvill RPB, Preki was brought in to make the playoffs this year, you do not need to be Barca or Inter to make the playoffs in this league, just well disciplied team. What you cannot afford, is what we have done every year, start playing 5 games in.


Really? You have to ask that? Let's see, what was going on in the off season that may have affected signing contracts? Hmmmm.....

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:01 AM
The one thing I think Preki is trying to instill is work ethic.

That's something that was lacking on a consistent basis over the last few years.

That's why I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for at least half a season.

But like Shags pointed out we couldn't keep the same team we have last year because of the cap.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:02 AM
I don't think that anyone is denying that.

Therefore, you kind of have to start all over again, because of said fuck up(s).

Stouffville_RPB
04-13-2010, 11:03 AM
But like Shags pointed out we couldn't keep the same team we have last year because of the cap.

That is why I said overlooking the cap in my first post.

J .
04-13-2010, 11:04 AM
If we miss the playoffs this season, sure lets protest away.... Not in the stands but outside of the ground at the MLS cup....

A true supporter is loyal to the club in the stands, through the ups and downs. Its a fourth year expansion club, we were one point from making the playoffs and apparently those negative players, which their own teamates alluded to being there, were identified and cut loose by a coach who is installing a hard working, battling team which will take time to get into form.

In essence, we have a whole new club. There have been mistakes made, a tough year with ups and downs. A fraction of our year gets to be spent at the ground urging our team onwards, why waste it being negative? Its unproductive.

Protest, fight or sell off your tickets, whatever negative vibe you want, do it outside of the ground. For 90 minutes on gameday stand behind the club through thick and thin. There are 349 days of the year to protest away. Make use of those days instead.

trane
04-13-2010, 11:06 AM
Really? You have to ask that? Let's see, what was going on in the off season that may have affected signing contracts? Hmmmm.....

That is an excuse. You do not need to sign a contract durring prior to the negotiations being over. You can have everything ready SO when the strike is over you are set to sign you players. Sure you may have to make a couple of adjustmtns, but the ground work can be done. WE ARE STILL scouting for players, two weeks in.

Shaughno
04-13-2010, 11:07 AM
But there's no point in discussing things 'overlooking the cap' IMO... since you know, we're stuck with it for another what, 5 years?

trane
04-13-2010, 11:08 AM
If we miss the playoffs this season, sure lets protest away.... Not in the stands but outside of the ground at the MLS cup....

A true supporter is loyal to the club in the stands, through the ups and downs. Its a fourth year expansion club, we were one point from making the playoffs and apparently those negative players, which their own teamates alluded to being there, were identified and cut loose by a coach who is installing a hard working, battling team which will take time to get into form.

In essence, we have a whole new club. There have been mistakes made, a tough year with ups and downs. A fraction of our year gets to be spent at the ground urging our team onwards, why waste it being negative? Its unproductive.

Protest, fight or sell off your tickets, whatever negative vibe you want, do it outside of the ground. For 90 minutes on gameday stand behind the club through thick and thin. There are 349 days of the year to protest away. Make use of those days instead.

I am sorry dude, but did not a first year expansion club make the playoffs last year? Did not a first year expnaiosn club, win a game already. Even if that was not the case, this exapansion club lable has to come off AFTER year one.

mastermixer
04-13-2010, 11:09 AM
From what I remember, we also had a thin roster last year as well. So he had to get rid of a couple of large cap players to bring in more blue collar guys to fill the roster.
I think Preki did mention that he wants a full squad to be able to compete in the NCC etc. The only shitty part was that it was all done last week. Im pretty sure we are close to 24 guys now

Shaughno
04-13-2010, 11:10 AM
We didn't really have a choice though with all the CBA discussion and shit... it put a real damper on our deal making from the sounds of it.

trane
04-13-2010, 11:12 AM
^ Shags, the CBA did not have to put evrything on hold, you could scout players, start talks with players, agree in principal ect. ect. , it looks like we did almost nothing.

Shags, you did answer my question, keeping in mind everything, do you think the squad looked ready enought comming out of camp?

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:13 AM
Yeah, but like trane says you could have laid the groundwork earlier in the year. Put the buzz in the agent's ear... oh wait a minute... LOL

But you have a list of players you target, approach their rep and say "we know there are issues with the CBA but a) we would like to trial you and b) how much would you cost?"

Or if you want to sign a guy outright, you see what figure he's looking at to see if he's viable or not.

You know who's out and what you need to come in so that as soon as a CBA decision is made you can turn it around quickly.

That just goes back to being unprepared.

Which is something this club has been for the last 4 seasons.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:14 AM
LOL what trane said.

trane
04-13-2010, 11:20 AM
Yeah, but like trane says you could have laid the groundwork earlier in the year. Put the buzz in the agent's ear... oh wait a minute... LOL

But you have a list of players you target, approach their rep and say "we know there are issues with the CBA but a) we would like to trial you and b) how much would you cost?"

Or if you want to sign a guy outright, you see what figure he's looking at to see if he's viable or not.

You know who's out and what you need to come in so that as soon as a CBA decision is made you can turn it around quickly.

That just goes back to being unprepared.

Which is something this club has been for the last 4 seasons.

Agreed 1000000 %. [ alla Maurey Povich guest]

alex andrew
04-13-2010, 11:21 AM
Its a fourth year expansion club

this is an eternity in north american footie, we should have reached the playoffs in the second year, and then being robbed in the championship game by a bad, bad, ref.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:27 AM
The more disconcerting thing is that I could live with ineptness for four years if it appeared there was a solid foundation in place.

But there is no foundation in place as far as I can see.

Seattle is,building, or has built, a foundation in place. (Yes, you can argue it was in place before hand.)

Philadelphia is building a foundation.

Portland and Vancouver, when they join MLS, will kick our ass guaranteed.

We're like the Metrostars of days gone by and look how long it took them to get to respectability... and they're still not there yet.

Roogsy
04-13-2010, 11:28 AM
The CBA excuse is a crock. You don't need the CBA in place to tell you preparations need to be taken. You prepare for a season, you hope there are no stoppages.

If you're going to release players, do it sooner rather than later, and if you need to sign players, I can understand holding off until the CBA issue is taken care of but once it is, put pen to paper and move on.

While everyone ELSE IN THE LEAGUE was off and running the moment the CBA issue was done, TFC was still fumbling about trying to figure out it's roster.

Funny that the rest of the league didn't wait for the CBA to be completely finished before taking care of business.

Roogsy
04-13-2010, 11:29 AM
Seattle is,building, or has built, a foundation in place. (Yes, you can argue it was in place before hand.)

Philadelphia is building a foundation.

Portland and Vancouver, when they join MLS, will kick our ass guaranteed.

It seems every team except for San Jose that will be coming in to this league, will come in well prepared and if we are still juggling our roster like we do all year long, they will indeed knock our lights out. That's an embarrassment.

mastermixer
04-13-2010, 11:29 AM
The pieces are there. They were a little late but we have a full squad. Lets give them a couple of games and hopefully a win for their confidence and then judge what Preki put together.

Boris
04-13-2010, 11:30 AM
The CBA excuse is a crock. You don't need the CBA in place to tell you preparations need to be taken. You prepare for a season, you hope there are no stoppages.

If you're going to release players, do it sooner rather than later, and if you need to sign players, I can understand holding off until the CBA issue is taken care of but once it is, put pen to paper and move on.

While everyone ELSE IN THE LEAGUE was off and running the moment the CBA issue was done, TFC was still fumbling about trying to figure out it's roster.

Funny that the rest of the league didn't wait for the CBA to be completely finished before taking care of business.

true...but then that call, if it were made was made by someone.
If this is the case that person should be held accountable for this mess.....

well one of many people

trane
04-13-2010, 11:34 AM
^ Parkdale is to be blamed. He should be held accountable.


Roogsy, agreed 100000000000000000000000000000 %.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:35 AM
That's why I also think the mandate came from higher up than just Mo.

trane
04-13-2010, 11:36 AM
^ That is why I named Parkdale, there is none higher then him.

[ It struck home the day I was banned, hence the anger of that day, the problem is deep in the organization]

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:38 AM
It seems every team except for San Jose that will be coming in to this league, will come in well prepared and if we are still juggling our roster like we do all year long, they will indeed knock our lights out. That's an embarrassment.

Amen.

See Roogsy, you and I can agree on things. LOL

Beach_Red
04-13-2010, 11:38 AM
That is an excuse. You do not need to sign a contract durring prior to the negotiations being over. You can have everything ready SO when the strike is over you are set to sign you players. Sure you may have to make a couple of adjustmtns, but the ground work can be done. WE ARE STILL scouting for players, two weeks in.


Of course it's an excuse!!!!

Just like the excuse that it wasn't a good idea to sign a DP the first season and just like it was an excuse that there was a lot of political red tape to getting grass and it was an excuse that.... on and on.

But who is making these excuses? Who doesn't want to spend the money? Whose money is it?

No matter how much you hate Mo Johnston do you really think he wanted to wait till the season started? Do you really think a guy who's job is on the line wanted to do nothing all winter?

Now, of course, we'll have a lame duck season. What a perfect excuse not to spend any more money. Could you image our GM trying to ask his boss for money to sign two more DPs this year?

trane
04-13-2010, 11:41 AM
^ Listen I beleive the problem is deeper then mo.

Corpand
04-13-2010, 11:42 AM
We are the Wigan of MLS. Strong spirit, keep thinking we should be better than other teams but fighting for bottom places on the table.

alex andrew
04-13-2010, 11:48 AM
We are the Wigan of MLS. Strong spirit, keep thinking we should be better than other teams but fighting for bottom places on the table.


maybe this is the price to pay if you join the american league.

maybe it's in the contract !

wanna watch live football ? don't you dare to !

Pookie
04-13-2010, 12:00 PM
Your interpretation is off.
The public funding was always there before the final location was picked and before MLSE was even in the picture or a thought in the picture.

I'm not sure we are reading each other correctly.

That is exactly my interpretation. The public funding was committed in support of the FIFA U20. MLSE came in after the fact.

That means that TFC was born as a result of MLSE's entrance into the original deal. TFC was not a driver in the deal, nor was "public use."

This is direct from the City documents (p.5, 2005)


"The construction of this soccer stadium has always been dependent on funding by the various levels of government and the immediate justification for the provision of government funding has been the commitment by FIFA and CSA to hold the FIFA Men’s Under 20 World Youth Championship in the Toronto stadium in 2007 followed by subsequent annual FIFA events...


As the Board is aware, since 2003, the proposed location and the partnerships involved in the development of a stadium in Toronto have varied. However, over the summer of 2005 there were discussions between Mayor Miller and Federal and Provincial Ministers about this project.


These discussions have culminated in the proposal before the Board which involves capital contributions from all three levels of governments of $72.8M (including base land value) to cover 100 percent of the construction costs of a stadium (including land costs) and in addition, provides for operating agreements between the City, the Board, MLSE and CSA to construct, manage and use the stadium for a period of 20 years from substantial completion.


The proposed location for the stadium is as shown on the site plan attached as Appendix “B” to this report. The principal terms and conditions for the soccer stadium and major league soccer franchise are set out in the LOI attached as Appendix “D”."

Pookie
04-13-2010, 12:02 PM
We are the Wigan of MLS. Strong spirit, keep thinking we should be better than other teams but fighting for bottom places on the table.

Wigan fans got a refund. We are far from being Wigan.

J .
04-13-2010, 12:05 PM
I say we are an expansion team because we just overhauled our roster.

Im not a believer in our backline right now, Nana has the most potential I believe of anyone we have back there and I would love to see him playing in England one day on a lower tier EPL team or even a top CCC team. Also, Im not apologizing for Mo, he had a five year plan. Playoffs this year are a must. His team was one point off last year... he didnt play in NY, guys like Robbo, Serioux did not show up... Was that Mo's fault?

Either way, I am not for protesting at the ground. We have so little time there that bringing a negative atmosphere is not for me.

Beach_Red
04-13-2010, 12:12 PM
I'm not sure we are reading each other correctly.

That is exactly my interpretation. The public funding was committed in support of the FIFA U20. MLSE came in after the fact.

That means that TFC was born as a result of MLSE's entrance into the original deal.


The two guys who just sold the Argos said they were also looking into an MLS franchise. I wonder what kind of a deal they would have received on the stadium.

CoachGT
04-13-2010, 12:12 PM
Yes,
Our team is currently going through a rough patch. While the previous statement might be an understatement I'd like to point out the fact that we are only two games into the current campaign. I understand that this is our fourth year of what seems to be an ongoing disappointing trend of constant rebuilding.

I'd like to first thank all of the supporters who made it out yesterday for what in my opinion was an embarrassing second half. I find myself having to dig deeper each passing day to stand firmly behind my team. Blind faith as a supporter is over. I am here to find the root cause of the issue and to have the powers that be at MLSE fix them.

Have we, as supporters become extremely jaded? How can we not at the very least feel disappointed with the lack of quality on the pitch. It is our love for the team that lead us want and expect the best for our team. Some may label us as being too critical of team. Once again, our passion for the team makes us question what is happening with the team. This overall disappointment is just a sign that we have taken a lot from our team. We expect a team who can give effort for 90 minutes. Over the past little while we have seen questionable games in which I'd like to question the effort. This expectation is one which any fan, or supporter from any sport can at the very least expect

As for the coaches and management. What is it that we expect? We expect management to deliver the strategy and foresight so that our players can produce results. Without proper leadership and guidance, our players are only 11 guys on the pitch. We are NOT a team. This guidance and foresight cannot be achieved with rash and questionable roster changes that lead to a revolving door. We have seen too much player turnaround. How can this team play together if you barely know the name of the person next to you?

While saturdays loss was disappointing, and rumblings of protest become louder I'd like to officially state that the Red Patch Boys will not participate in such a display. A decision like this needs to be thought of more. The season is still young and there is plenty of room to come through. While we can easily say our team sucks so let's walk, why are we walking? By having various 'protests' we loose our credibility as a supporters group and look cheap. As I've said many times, we have to wait and see. Furthermore, to do such a thing at our home opener would be classless end of. We have a lot to look forward too on Thursday and a protest will not be one.

There's still plenty of time but I'd just like people to know that the entire team is on notice. We love our team and will always love our team but I think its time for the team to get results.......

Absolutely 100% correct.

trane
04-13-2010, 12:20 PM
All we had in the stands is a positive atmosphere. is it not time that some of that translates on the pitch?

J .
04-13-2010, 12:35 PM
All we had in the stands is a positive atmosphere. is it not time that some of that translates on the pitch?


Just because the players are not holding up their end of the bargain, doesnt mean we turn to negative tactics.

According to the 24th minute 4% of our year is spent at the grounds... Less if you miss a game, that means you have 96% of your year to be negative about everything and anything you want.

CoachGT
04-13-2010, 12:48 PM
Although it may not seem like it, very few players give less than 100%. Giving your all and being effective are something different.

alex andrew
04-13-2010, 01:02 PM
Giving your all and being effective are something different.

exactly, nobody cares about the effort, only the outcome counts.

i could watch all day lazy paolo rossis and gerd mullers.

trane
04-13-2010, 01:03 PM
Pipo Inzaghi.

alex andrew
04-13-2010, 01:09 PM
for some reason i think that the boys start running and running and running, being scared that somebody sees 'em not running !

and then they crash.

phisycally or mentaly or both.

i am never worried about the first half, most of the games start in the sixtyeth minute.

bgnewf
04-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Here is a timely observation I think...

I was at the Season Kickoff thingy at First Canadian Place (I work next door) and got to chat with a few people including Brennan, Garcia and DeRo.

The saddest part of the event was that at each table there was a little card on the front stating the player's names next to a photograph of them.


Here we are in year four of this journey and we need placecards with photographs on them in order to identify who our players are.


Unbelieveable.

Beach_Red
04-13-2010, 01:20 PM
Although it may not seem like it, very few players give less than 100%. Giving your all and being effective are something different.


Really? This team has always a few Laurent Roberts or even Guevara's who sometimes get frustrated by the play and stop giving 100% effort.

It may something that can't be avoided in what is basically a development/retirement league. A guy like Robert can just take another offer from a team in Greece, but not every player has that option.

Last year many people (well, mostly Jloome) were saying that the skill level on the team was high, but there was no "team." That's going to be a problem with a league at this level where some guys are looking to move on to a higher league and some are playing out the end of their careers. It's going to make roster stability rare and team chemistry difficult.

This is like supporting an AHL or AAA baseball team - it's not the same as a team in an elite league.

mazinn
04-13-2010, 01:39 PM
The way i look at it after New England game is
We took friday off,we drove for about 10 hours in the rain, plus all the toll costs and the staying costs, all was done to support our team, we deserved to see better than what we saw.
The TFC management, the coaching team, and Garcia, all owe us an appology.
We could of watched that loss for the fraction of the cost by just watching the game here on tv, we will always support the team, but as i said we deserve to see a better
game on thursday. we lost 4-1 for an obvious reason, we all know it, the management and the coaches know it, lets see if they are doing any thing about it at next game, i for one would be very pissed if no changes are made. See you all at the game and good luck to us

Pookie
04-13-2010, 02:31 PM
The way i look at it after New England game is
We took friday off,we drove for about 10 hours in the rain, plus all the toll costs and the staying costs, all was done to support our team, we deserved to see better than what we saw.
The TFC management, the coaching team, and Garcia, all owe us an appology.


Well, I too made the trip and spent the money.

On the way out on Sunday morning, I got the apology too... unsolicited... from GK Coach, Mike Toshack. It was unexpected but appreciated.

Now, if only I could find someone willing to give me a refund like those Wigan fans.

olegunnar
04-13-2010, 02:39 PM
The way i look at it after New England game is
We took friday off,we drove for about 10 hours in the rain, plus all the toll costs and the staying costs, all was done to support our team, we deserved to see better than what we saw.



That's how I felt in Columbus in 2008, yet for some reason people hold that clusterf*ck in high regard as if it's something to remember fondly.

I spent a lot in roaming charges at half time of that game venting to anyone that would pick up their phone.
"I drove 7 hours to this armpit of a sh*t hole so I could be fed this crap?"

I don't think it's right, that people here are insinuating they want their money back...but I do think it's right to be pissed, that the level of commitment of support is so disporportionate to the level of commitment to quality on and off the pitch.

They don't deserve us.

Pookie
04-13-2010, 03:30 PM
^ re: people wanting money back. It has been established by clubs in other leagues that they are willing to refund travelling supporters for games in which their side essentially didn't compete.

You can't demand a refund for every game lost.

But I do think it is a novel concept and right or wrong, you can't help but conclude that it builds loyalty.

DichioTFC
04-13-2010, 03:52 PM
^ i cant see MLSE ever giving back a dime for any reason

J .
04-13-2010, 04:07 PM
^ i cant see MLSE ever giving back a dime for any reason


Nope they wont. Got to love DW. Another reason I am a fan of Wigan (Not the over matched Martinez...he is shit. Jason Scotland couldnt play MLS, let alone EPL)

mazinn
04-13-2010, 04:47 PM
Well, I too made the trip and spent the money.

On the way out on Sunday morning, I got the apology too... unsolicited... from GK Coach, Mike Toshack. It was unexpected but appreciated.

Now, if only I could find someone willing to give me a refund like those Wigan fans.

Its not a concert where the singer has a flu and then we want our money back, if our team loses, it should be with a dignity and an honer.All of our players should be up to the game to keep the moral level high until the last second of the game, in our case we had one player who is been killing the moral of the team in last few games, i dont know him pesonal, i have nothing against him, i dont hate him as a person, its just he is not the piece of the jig saw puzzle our team needs in the field.
Just like every away game i`ve been to is a big success( thanx to the away game committee) i expect the TFC managment do the same

boban
04-13-2010, 04:47 PM
^ i cant see MLSE ever giving back a dime for any reason
That is sooo true.

scooter
04-13-2010, 10:46 PM
glimmer of hope
just veiwed the preki presser
before you all jump down my throat watch it and think about what he is saying

he knows whats wrong and he wont name names but he knows what needs to be done

lets support our team and if they can work things out over the next few weeks i think we will all get what we want

a winner

canny wait fer opening day

LesRougez116
04-13-2010, 11:05 PM
i am optimistic for this season, preki is good coach, mo will be fired if we do bad, win win really

Super
04-13-2010, 11:21 PM
i am optimistic for this season, preki is good coach, mo will be fired if we do bad, win win really

LOL I kinda feel the same way. If we finish out of the play-offs it will SUCK - but at least then Mo will be fired.

So either way we get something great out of this season :D

jazzy
04-13-2010, 11:25 PM
[quote=Beach_Red;974397]Really? This team has always a few Laurent Roberts or even Guevara's who sometimes get frustrated by the play and stop giving 100% effort.

Who knew, at this time last year but the thought of Guevara on this years team would bring our skill level up substancially and my hopes by the way......even a half assed Guevara..........At least I'd feel a bigger part of the world cup....His talent is world class, faults and all........He always threatened to score

jazzy
04-13-2010, 11:35 PM
LOL I kinda feel the same way. If we finish out of the play-offs it will SUCK - but at least then Mo will be fired.

So either way we get something great out of this season :D

Fair enough, but this has happenned for 4 years, Mo will never win a championship....given...and you're saying our whole year will be topped by his firing?.......L.O.L.....Our aspirations should be higher!......

Roogsy
04-13-2010, 11:39 PM
My nightmare:

TFC misses the playoffs.

Mo DOESN'T get fired.

It could happen. It isn't out of the realm of possibility, especially with MLSE.

Whoop
04-13-2010, 11:47 PM
Yeah, the "we missed the playoffs by 1 point" excuse.

CretanBull
04-13-2010, 11:54 PM
My nightmare:

TFC misses the playoffs.

Mo DOESN'T get fired.

It could happen. It isn't out of the realm of possibility, especially with MLSE.

My nightmare:

We limp into the playoffs

We get trounced in the 1st round.

We're told that they met their goal of making the play-offs, that this season was an improvement over last etc.

Mo doesn't get fired.

Whoop
04-14-2010, 12:04 AM
Oh man... that is my nightmare as well.

Beach_Red
04-14-2010, 07:28 AM
My nightmare:

We limp into the playoffs

We get trounced in the 1st round.

We're told that they met their goal of making the play-offs, that this season was an improvement over last etc.

Mo doesn't get fired.


Do you think anything that happened between last November and now would have been different if Mo had been fired and Preki given both jobs?

Until MLSE give the same deal to TFC's GM that they give to the Raptors and Leafs GM it doesn't matter who's in the job. In fact, it's probably better to have someone between Preki (or whoever's running the team day-to-day) and the suits at MLSE. Could another GM get more out of MLSE? Maybe, but maybe not. They're no going to spend for another DP this year, and maybe next guy will have to start over and sella player before he gets to sign a DP. Take a good hard look at the company and the way they've run the team so far and take personalities out of it and then consider what would be best.

Besides, it's not going to matter, your worst nightmare is going to come true - TFC is going to make the playoffs by many points and then go deep.

CretanBull
04-14-2010, 01:18 PM
Do you think anything that happened between last November and now would have been different if Mo had been fired and Preki given both jobs?


Mo's decisions last season have hamstrung the team this season, so you're right in suggesting that nothing significant would be different in terms of the team we have now. The major difference is that someone would have been held accountable for their decisions, and maybe that is a principal that the team could build on.

The message could have been "we'll give you the freedom to do what you want, if you succeed the glory is yours, but if you fail the blame is yours" instead the message is "don't worry if you screw up, we'll extend your contract and give you a chance to fix your mistakes".

Mo should have been fired the night we lost 5-0 to NYRB. Not because we lost that game, and not because we didn't make the playoffs. He should have been fired at that moment because it was then that it was undeniable to anyone that the team he put together was severly flawed and the season was a failure. Instead we heard nothing but "hey, we missed the play-offs by 1 point, it was our best season yet!". Once they allowed themselves to think that the season was almost a success that we just missed out was the moment that this season was doomed.

Beach_Red
04-14-2010, 01:28 PM
^ Oh, this team was doomed long before then. Look, you see a series of decisions from the senior management that is consistent over years and suddenly expect after one game a change of direction?

They did say, "We'll give you the freedom to do what you want," but only after a couple of short-term contracts and a series of goals were met - that wasn't the deal from day one.

That's where the mistake was made. If they had jumped into this thing whole-heartedly and let all that happen the first year - the signing of a DP, the building of the infrastructure and so on, then we wouldn't be in this mess. But they set up a series of goals and the team made them. So the, "freedom to do what you want," was given out a little at a time instead of all at once (like it's supposedly was for Brian Burke).

These results are exactly what that style of management gets.

Steve
04-14-2010, 05:46 PM
My nightmare:

We limp into the playoffs

We get trounced in the 1st round.

We're told that they met their goal of making the play-offs, that this season was an improvement over last etc.

Mo doesn't get fired.

If this is your nightmare, what are your thoughts on Preki? I mean, look at his history, though his team has always made it to the post season (more than we can say) they NEVER make it past the first round. So, if that happens, is that more Preki or Mo?

Personally, I think I understand how it always happens to Preki. Preki doesn't like skilled players who will disappear for a game or two, he wants consistent role players who will be the same game in game out. That means he tends to build teams that will work hard, make it into the playoffs (since the top half of teams do in this league), but not make it far because the playoffs are for players who can step up their game, and Preki gets rid of those players.

Antonio Gramsci
04-15-2010, 02:18 PM
I very much like Boris' opening post.

Though I hope the team does well this season and think it is too early to get militant, I am not optimistic.

Mo is a disaster. The responsibility for the state of the team rests with him, and with MLSE for having given him another year when he should have been handed his papers before getting on the plane back from New York.

However, if "putting the team on notice" is not enough, I think some very serious thought has to go into what comes next. Protest needs to be focussed to be effective. And, as some people have indicated, we want to be careful to be supporting the team while promoting change at the top. That's not an easy combination, and care is required.

There's a nice article from When Saturday Comes (http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/350/29/) looking at various fan protests in the English League which might serve as models. I also think that Section 8's work in getting the Fire to deal with racism among the security staff has some important lessons as well.

All serious fans need to take this seriously. I'll be TFC 'till I die but I'll be goddamned if I let MLSE treat us like Leafs fans.