Gratuitous TFC logo copyright infringement

[Stugatzo]

I snapped this in my Scarborough neighbourhood today.
I'm not sure who is more likely to claim copyright infringement - Major League Soccer for the initials or TFC for the logo.
No idea what this place is at it hasn't opened yet, but it used to be a bowling alley. Indoor soccer? Paintball? I dunno but there's a "player's lounge" attached to it as well.
Can you say Major League Lawsuit??
Mods, feel free to move if in the wrong section.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c107/stugatzo/IMG00258.jpg (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c107/stugatzo/IMG00258.jpg)

[Stouffville_RPB]

Queen lost againist Vanilla Ice in court and that was the exact same beat. Can't see MLS or TFC winning any kind of case.

[905shmick]

Queen lost againist Vanilla Ice in court and that was the exact same beat. Can't see MLS or TFC winning any kind of case.

Please provide evidence of this.

[Parkdale]

hahahaha..... that looks like a church with a fence...... makes me want to pee on it!

[Stugatzo]

^^^haha...yeah.
the complex was actually the other way.

[Waggy]

6 bars or less isn't copyright infringement. Because Ice only used 2 bars as the beat it wasn't technically an infringement. Also, Ice had a MASSIVE record label backing him in that lawsuite, which helps. The infringement above on the other hand is gratuitous and most definitely a violation. And I'm assuming MLSE has a bit more in the legal resources department

[Roogsy]

:smilielol5;

OMG, tell me that is a joke? Photoshop?

[Daveisonfire]

Yikes, talk about lack of imagination

[CoachGT]

hahahaha..... that looks like a church with a fence...... makes me want to pee on it!

It's an electric fence - watch it or you could be electrocuted!

[flatpicker]

:smilielol5;

OMG, tell me that is a joke? Photoshop?


wasn't me

[tfcmanu]

I snapped this in my Scarborough neighbourhood today.
I'm not sure who is more likely to claim copyright infringement - Major League Soccer for the initials or TFC for the logo.
No idea what this place is at it hasn't opened yet, but it used to be a bowling alley. Indoor soccer? Paintball? I dunno but there's a "player's lounge" attached to it as well.
Can you say Major League Lawsuit??
Mods, feel free to move if in the wrong section.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c107/stugatzo/IMG00258.jpg (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c107/stugatzo/IMG00258.jpg)

Looks like outside the stadium in Columbus.....The Fence, The Church...Parkdale is that you?..LOL:drinking:

[Parkdale]

Looks like outside the stadium in Columbus.....The Fence, The Church...Parkdale is that you?..LOL:drinking:

the distance from the fence I pee'd on to the church is farther than from the yellow poll to the satelite dish.

haha... thanks Google maps! (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=crew+stadium+columbus+ohio&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=30.268266,63.105469&ie=UTF8&hq=Columbus+Crew&hnear=Columbus+Crew,+Black+and+Gold+Boulevard,+Col umbus,+OH&ll=40.0081,-82.987987&spn=0,359.992297&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=40.007414,-82.988804&panoid=zox1x8GhvbB-98SsoilAtg&cbp=12,3.63,,0,-1.96)

[MUFC_Niagara]

Copyright laws dictate that if a logo is change by 20% it is no longer infringement. That is very close to 20%.

[FluSH]

ok guys... I'll come clean... I actually own this complex! We are putting up north stands and geting some real grass as well... indoors!!! waaaaa

[CretanBull]

6 bars or less isn't copyright infringement. Because Ice only used 2 bars as the beat it wasn't technically an infringement. Also, Ice had a MASSIVE record label backing him in that lawsuite, which helps. The infringement above on the other hand is gratuitous and most definitely a violation. And I'm assuming MLSE has a bit more in the legal resources department

Vanilla Ice ended up having to pay for the sample ($4 million) and David Bowie and Fredddie Mercury are listed as song writers so they're collecting the mechanical royalties from that song.

[Beach_Red]

Vanilla Ice ended up having to pay for the sample ($4 million) and David Bowie and Fredddie Mercury are listed as song writers so they're collecting the mechanical royalties from that song.

Funny, I just heard My Sweet Lord on the radio.

There isn't a set number of notes or bars or anything, each case is looked at on its own and intent is taken into account. If the new song was trying to trade on the old one that can be enough.

What happened to the U2 - Dominic Triano case last year?

[marshall_law]

Copyright laws dictate that if a logo is change by 20% it is no longer infringement. That is very close to 20%.

that's not exactly how the law works.

technically, this would be a claim for trademark infringement - most likely "passing off" under s. 7(b) of the trademarks act.

as to who would be able to bring action, it would depend on who is listed as the registered owner of tfc's trademark (either ownership or mls).

[Stugatzo]

and what about coldplay and Joe Satriani!
As for the 20 per cent rule, not sure how you would measure that.
The colour scheme is identical, the concept of the the ball on top and the scarf across the middle with the T replaced by M and l and s.
Perhaps MLSE should just consider it the sincerest form of flattery.

[NewCity]

Funny, I just heard My Sweet Lord on the radio.

There isn't a set number of notes or bars or anything, each case is looked at on its own and intent is taken into account. If the new song was trying to trade on the old one that can be enough.

What happened to the U2 - Dominic Triano case last year?

I've worked with Domenic Triano....he was a great musician. I never knew there was a case vs U2 with him..interesting.

[Waggy]

Vanilla Ice ended up having to pay for the sample ($4 million) and David Bowie and Fredddie Mercury are listed as song writers so they're collecting the mechanical royalties from that song.

My bad! I thought he won that case (since he had the rights to the song up until his... interesting view off that hotel balcony)

[mastermixer]

Lol I drove by that place yesterday.. had to do a doubletake. Its in a pretty grimy part of Scarborough so not sure what they are planning to provide at MLS :rolleyes:

[Roogsy]

Vanilla Ice ended up having to pay for the sample ($4 million) and David Bowie and Fredddie Mercury are listed as song writers so they're collecting the mechanical royalties from that song.


You know what I don't get? How did anyone NOT guess that they would eventually have to pay royalties? It would have come out so much cheaper had they simply bought the usage before releasing the track that made it so big!

That always confused me. Who was managing this for Vanilla Ice? He should have fired him.

[Oldtimer]

MLS owns the logos for TFC and MLS.

It's MLS who would take action.

[Beach_Red]

I've worked with Domenic Triano....he was a great musician. I never knew there was a case vs U2 with him..interesting.

No, my mistake, it was Coldplay.

And yes, he was a great musician, he influenced a lot of people.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Good musician…crappy basketball coach

[flatpicker]

MLS owns the logos for TFC and MLS.

It's MLS who would take action.

MLS owns the TFC logo?
You know that for a fact?

[CretanBull]

You know what I don't get? How did anyone NOT guess that they would eventually have to pay royalties? It would have come out so much cheaper had they simply bought the usage before releasing the track that made it so big!

That always confused me. Who was managing this for Vanilla Ice? He should have fired him.

The laws back then were pretty sketchy in regard to samples, it was a new frontier in a lot of ways. Sampling had been used before, but it was always for small segments and not the main hook of a song - and never before had so much money been involved (the song was a giant hit). The labels basically decided to go with it, and then let it sort itself out later.

A few years ago I read an awesome article about how much it would have cost to get all the samples cleared for Public Enemy's "It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold us Back" if it was recorded today. It would have cost several million dollars, to put out an album that only cost a few hundred thousand to make.

My friend wrote the Shawn Desmond song "Let's Go". A lot of people assume that the song samples the Yazoo song "Don't Go". It's not a sample - it would have cost too much to have that sample cleared. Instead they did a ton of research and found out what equipment (and settings) Yazoo used to record the song, they tracked down all the old synths and then re-recorded the song note for note. That way they only had to credit Vince Clarke as a song writer and didn't have to actually pay for the sample. You'd be surprised by how many things that you think are samples really aren't - artists/producers can save tens of thousands of dollars doing it this way.

[marshall_law]

MLS owns the TFC logo?
You know that for a fact?


mlse, not mls, is the registered owner of the "toronto fc" trademark.

here's the link for the registration:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do;jsessionid=00003vgmKJhnNilr7MLNVnujQ1O :1247nfca5?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=1293792&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=1

[Roogsy]

The laws back then were pretty sketchy in regard to samples, it was a new frontier in a lot of ways. Sampling had been used before, but it was always for small segments and not the main hook of a song - and never before had so much money been involved (the song was a giant hit). The labels basically decided to go with it, and then let it sort itself out later.

A few years ago I read an awesome article about how much it would have cost to get all the samples cleared for Public Enemy's "It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold us Back" if it was recorded today. It would have cost several million dollars, to put out an album that only cost a few hundred thousand to make.

My friend wrote the Shawn Desmond song "Let's Go". A lot of people assume that the song samples the Yazoo song "Don't Go". It's not a sample - it would have cost too much to have that sample cleared. Instead they did a ton of research and found out what equipment (and settings) Yazoo used to record the song, they tracked down all the old synths and then re-recorded the song note for note. That way they only had to credit Vince Clarke as a song writer and didn't have to actually pay for the sample. You'd be surprised by how many things that you think are samples really aren't - artists/producers can save tens of thousands of dollars doing it this way.

That's interesting stuff. Thanks.

[MrHawk]

The laws back then were pretty sketchy in regard to samples, it was a new frontier in a lot of ways. Sampling had been used before, but it was always for small segments and not the main hook of a song - and never before had so much money been involved (the song was a giant hit). The labels basically decided to go with it, and then let it sort itself out later.

A few years ago I read an awesome article about how much it would have cost to get all the samples cleared for Public Enemy's "It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold us Back" if it was recorded today. It would have cost several million dollars, to put out an album that only cost a few hundred thousand to make.

My friend wrote the Shawn Desmond song "Let's Go". A lot of people assume that the song samples the Yazoo song "Don't Go". It's not a sample - it would have cost too much to have that sample cleared. Instead they did a ton of research and found out what equipment (and settings) Yazoo used to record the song, they tracked down all the old synths and then re-recorded the song note for note. That way they only had to credit Vince Clarke as a song writer and didn't have to actually pay for the sample. You'd be surprised by how many things that you think are samples really aren't - artists/producers can save tens of thousands of dollars doing it this way.

May I get this friends contact info to find Shawn Desmond ;)

[Banjax]

Drove by this place with my Brother also. no idea what it is. My sister knows Danny Fernandez and Shawn Desmond ill get you the info ;)

[CretanBull]

May I get this friends contact info to find Shawn Desmond ;)

Do you seriously want to get in touch with him? Are you an writer/artist? I know a lot of people....;)

[FluSH]

who in da world is Danny Fernandez? and I feel I need to post one of these... ;)

[Oldtimer]

mlse, not mls, is the registered owner of the "toronto fc" trademark.

here's the link for the registration:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do;jsessionid=00003vgmKJhnNilr7MLNVnujQ1O :1247nfca5?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=1293792&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=1

Not the trademark, the logo, is owned by MLS.


The wordmarks, logos, trade names, packaging and designs of MLS, SUM, the current and former MLS member clubs and the Site and the Services are the exclusive property of MLS or our affiliates.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/terms-of-service

If you look at any TFC-branded merchandise, it says that the logo is property of MLS.

[JonO]

^ A trade-mark can be a word mark (like Toronto FC) as well as the logo. Not sure if they have filed a trade-mark to the logo. Interestingly, they also filed an application for "Inter Toronto FC", but let it become abandoned...

[canadian_bhoy]

^ A trade-mark can be a word mark (like Toronto FC) as well as the logo. Not sure if they have filed a trade-mark to the logo. Interestingly, they also filed an application for "Inter Toronto FC", but let it become abandoned...

Thank god.

[NewCity]

Do you seriously want to get in touch with him? Are you an writer/artist? I know a lot of people....;)

So do I , work in the industry? Just curious

[Oblio2]

Isnt that the old bowling alley at Danforth/St Clair?

[Carts]

Immitation is the sincerest form of flatery...???

Just my personal opinion, I don't think the league will do anything - I could be completely and totally wrong, just my opinion...

This sign and facility isn't "taking anything away" from TFC or the MLS but it is using the familiarity of the logo and initials to catch attention...

Its like minor hockey rinks, you see small leagues in the USA use the 'NHL Logo' but change the letters inside - the NHL likes the free publicity as the minor league isn't taking anything away from the NHL...

My biggest problem with this sign, the logo is shitty - they could've done a much better job using the TFC logo than that! lol

Carts...

[menefreghista]

They will probably get away with the logo, but will have to change the MLS.

A few months back, a new MMA gym in Maple tried to open up and call itself UFC. After awhile it was changed to PFC (Paramount Fight Club).

[Oldtimer]

Just my personal opinion, I don't think the league will do anything - I could be completely and totally wrong, just my opinion...


The league has no choice.

If you don't defend your intellectual property against commercial infringement, you lose your rights protection... it becomes public domain.

Perfect example is "elevator." The word was a trademark of the Otis Elevator Corporation. They failed to defend the word, and it ended up being declared public domain in North America, after Otis lost a court case.

Interestingly enough, the infringement didn't happen in the UK, where Otis still holds the trademark, which is why an elevator is a "lift" in the UK.

[trane]

It is the accutual use of the MLS that I think that the MLS would have the biggest problem with, it looks like a clear attempt to infrindge on the MLS brand, what else could it be?

The rest is also such an attempt however, they could make a better argument that it is not similar enough. Althought as a whole I would think it difficult to defend. I would hope that the MLS would come after them to protect their mark. It is not realy about this one dude, but if you do not protect your mark eventualy you may lose exclusivety to it.

Jon O is the best one to comment on this.

[trane]

The league has no choice.

If you don't defend your intellectual property against commercial infringement, you lose your rights protection... it becomes public domain.

Perfect example is "elevator." The word was a trademark of the Otis Elevator Corporation. They failed to defend the word, and it ended up being declared public domain in North America, after Otis lost a court case.

Interestingly enough, the infringement didn't happen in the UK, where Otis still holds the trademark, which is why an elevator is a "lift" in the UK.


That is exectly my point. They have to come after them.

[JonO]

Just my personal opinion, I don't think the league will do anything - I could be completely and totally wrong, just my opinion...

Going to disagree with you there. The biggest issue is quality assurance. There are certainly people who are going to believe that there is an affiliation between this complex and TFC - the logo is just too close. Accordingly, if someone has a bad experience, it will reflect poorly on TFC - especially since they run their own kids soccer camps.

I really need to brush up on trade-marks, but I'm pretty sure they have to take positive steps to maintain/ensure the quality of their product to maintain their trade-mark. Otherwise it runs the risk of becoming public domain. See Kleenex, escalator, thermos, etc.

Any trade-mark attorneys, please feel free to clean this up :D

Edit: Looks like I am late to the party

[Roogsy]

The league has no choice.

If you don't defend your intellectual property against commercial infringement, you lose your rights protection... it becomes public domain.

Perfect example is "elevator." The word was a trademark of the Otis Elevator Corporation. They failed to defend the word, and it ended up being declared public domain in North America, after Otis lost a court case.

Interestingly enough, the infringement didn't happen in the UK, where Otis still holds the trademark, which is why an elevator is a "lift" in the UK.

SHIT! :eek:

I learn something new on these boards every day.

[JonO]

^ that's why they have those interac commercials (or at least used to) making sure people called it interac and not interact.

[trane]

Going to disagree with you there. The biggest issue is quality assurance. There are certainly people who are going to believe that there is an affiliation between this complex and TFC - the logo is just too close. Accordingly, if someone has a bad experience, it will reflect poorly on TFC - especially since they run their own kids soccer camps.

I really need to brush up on trade-marks, but I'm pretty sure they have to take positive steps to maintain/ensure the quality of their product to maintain their trade-mark. Otherwise it runs the risk of becoming public domain. See Kleenex, escalator, thermos, etc.

Any trade-mark attorneys, please feel free to clean this up :D

Edit: Looks like I am late to the party

Yes, but you opinion on this issue if the meanigfull one, as people pay you for it.:D

[JonO]

Actually I never got into trade-marks. Never really had the time, and now I am too expensive to dabble ;) I know a little bit by osmosis, but I always defer to someone else.... like hitcho for example

[TorCanSoc]

How stupid is this person that is starting this business? Seriously.

[trane]

Jon O,

I remember you told me that. Not as much money in the application side, from what I have gathered. I think you can get one done by a good firm for $1500-$3000. plus disbrusment. I read trademark cases but mostly in relation to procedural litigation issues.

I think this is one were they would ask the court for an Anton Pillar order, stopping the guy from ussing the mark. Not to expensive to do, particullary as the guy probably does not have pockets deep enough to fight back.

[drewski]

I really need to brush up on trade-marks, but I'm pretty sure they have to take positive steps to maintain/ensure the quality of their product to maintain their trade-mark. Otherwise it runs the risk of becoming public domain. See Kleenex, escalator, thermos, etc.


during my training we got a little schpiel from Trademark branch and they basically said the same thing

[trane]

http://www.ipic.ca/spring/anton_piller_~_drapeau_%26_cullen.pdf

Something on Anton Pillar orders, I know very little on this, my "knowldge" is a bi-product of knowledge of Federal Court litigation.

What I do understand is that these orders are generaly sought to prohibt infringing parties from selling good bearing the Applicant's logo. But I would imagine it could be used in cases in this, plus the place probably has merchandise bearing the mark.

[marshall_law]

Not the trademark, the logo, is owned by MLS.



http://www.mlssoccer.com/terms-of-service

If you look at any TFC-branded merchandise, it says that the logo is property of MLS.

a logo is basically the "design mark" portion of a trademark. when you register a tm, you have the option of registering: (i) just the word mark, (ii) just the design mark, or (iii) the word and design mark.

that link is for the terms of service mlssoccer.com - won't shed any light on the rights to the "toronto fc" trademark. further down in the terms of service, it references the fact that all intellectual property is either owned or licensed to mls. so, it acknowledges that other people other than mls can own the toronto fc trademark.

i don't think an anton pillar order or any other type of litigation will ensue. what will likely happen is that osler will send a strongly worded cease and desist letter to this guy and that'll be the end of it.

[trane]

^ You are probably right, but would an Anton Pillar oder be an avaialbe remedy in such cases? Osler is counsel for MLS or MLSE? Or are they one and the same in this matter.

[marshall_law]

^ i'm not too familliar with ap orders but i don't even think that would be the appropriate remedy in this case. from what i understand, it's a pretty specific order that allows you to gather evidence (kind of like a search warrant) when there is reason to believe that the other party will destroy it before trial, discoveries, etc...

they would probably seek just a plain interim/final injunction preventing the facility's use of the mark. there's a specific test for these types of injunctions but, without any facts, it'd be hard to tell whether it would be available or not.

olser is listed as counsel under the registered "toronto fc" mark as being counsel for mlse. i don't think mls and mlse are the same in this matter. mlse is the registered owner of the mark but that doesn't mean that they haven't licensed its use out to mls. if i had to guess, i'd say that mlse would take action here.

[trane]

^ Got it.

In that case, if they went to litigation, is a version of the RJ Mcdonald injunction test, having to prove that 1) there is Serious issue to be tried 2) Irreparable harm 3) Ballance of convineince?

I have always been interested in trademarks and non patent IP litigation, due to its wide applicability in business.

[marshall_law]

^ you've got it - rjr mcdonald is the appropriate test in that case.

trademarks is a pretty interesting area of law because the parties really are characters sometimes. it's already been mentioned above how companies have to zealously protect their marks to preserve their distinctiveness - it's funny to see the lengths that they'll go to and the arguments that they'll make to do so (the labatt/red baron lime beer issue from the summer is a perfect example).

[FluSH]

SHIT! :eek:

I learn something new on these boards every day.

Roogsy did you skip that marketing class... come on man you're going soft on me! :D

[Roogsy]

IP, copyright and trademarks have always been my weak spot.

[drewski]

i'm shocked how many ip geeks there seem to be here :lol: