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View Full Version : Is First Wave Sports handling TFC's scouting?



jloome
04-01-2010, 09:58 PM
http://www.firstwavesports.com/firstwave/staff2

Notice they had a couple of scouts on staff, an African player agent as a partner and a Canadian player agent as a partner.

That sounds an awful lot like the scouting makeup that's been described, in general, by Paul on these boards.

I wonder if he'd clarify whether First Wave represents any ongoing segment of TFC's scouting efforts, whether the club's scouts are all independent freelances, or full-timers, or connected to First Wave in any other sense?

This may have come up before and been clarified and my bad if that's the case, but I'm curious, given how many TFC staff are represented by the club.

Anyone got an answer on that one? Paul?

andyc
04-01-2010, 11:11 PM
This is a real topic that needs to be discussed. TFC has a pathetic record of signings and contract negotiations.

First Wave and Mo seem to have a key role in many of these questionable decisions. Someone at MLSE needs to take a serious look if their governance of the management of the team is appropriate for an organization of this scale...

Krasno.pL.
04-02-2010, 12:00 AM
Supposedly Barry MacLean has some connections to TFC ;)

Damien
04-02-2010, 01:38 AM
Yes, next question ;)

kelzag
04-02-2010, 07:59 AM
This is a real topic that needs to be discussed. TFC has a pathetic record of signings and contract negotiations.

First Wave and Mo seem to have a key role in many of these questionable decisions. Someone at MLSE needs to take a serious look if their governance of the management of the team is appropriate for an organization of this scale...


^^^That!!!!!

koryo
04-02-2010, 08:06 AM
This is a real topic that needs to be discussed. TFC has a pathetic record of signings and contract negotiations.

First Wave and Mo seem to have a key role in many of these questionable decisions. Someone at MLSE needs to take a serious look if their governance of the management of the team is appropriate for an organization of this scale...

Bang on.

ensco
04-02-2010, 08:08 AM
The system is corked and these agencies really need to be scrutinized. But given the single entity, I'm not buying the broader premise of this.

It's clearly the case that First Wave has been involved in our international signings, but that is the case for the league generally.

TFC's scouting department has five areas of responsibility: pro scouting in MLS (ie players on other teams), NCAA soccer (ie the draft), the USL/NASL, kids for the Academy, and then all the other leagues the world over for international signings.

If there is evidence that First Wave (or any other third party) is systematically involved in any of the first four areas, I haven't seen it.

Many internationals come in through firms like First Wave, but not necessarily for TFC's benefit.

MLS signed our Gambians. Not Mo. They actually belonged to the Galaxy first.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/sports/soccer/21mls.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=gambia%20soccer&st=cse

Beach_Red
04-02-2010, 09:30 AM
^ But TFC do pretty well in the first four areas of scouting you mentioned - it's the rest of the world the team seems to have trouble with, so we're just looking for why that is. Are they not spending enough money on scouting there or what?

And First Wave is a lot more involved that just that - their Events division handled all the friendlies that came to BMO and the All Star game. Plus, of course, they rep the entire management and coaching staff, right down to the goalie coach.

It looks like someone at MLSE did take a serious look at the organization and they've pretty much sub-contracted out the running of the team to them, the same as they've contracted out the food concessions.

What it means for us is that calls to replace the GM are pointless because the next one will also come from these guys and do exactly the same things.

billyfly
04-02-2010, 09:53 AM
This is fascinating.

jloome
04-02-2010, 10:26 AM
If there is evidence that First Wave (or any other third party) is systematically involved in any of the first four areas, I haven't seen it.



I simply asked a question based on an observation. If First Wave has no ongoing role in TFC scouting, a partial one, a major one, or whatever, I can't see why Paul wouldn't be able to be open about it.

ag futbol
04-02-2010, 10:43 AM
MLS signed our Gambians. Not Mo. They actually belonged to the Galaxy first.

Yes big, brother actually does a lot more in the scouting department than people realize.

They go out and identify talent centrally, then in many cases offer them up to different teams. The conflict of interest there is ridiculous.

2Legit2Quit
04-02-2010, 10:51 AM
Some players that came on trial or brought in by other sources have been asked to move to First Wave before signing a deal with TFC, and changed shortly after signing or right before...Pablo Vitti is one of those players.

icecoldbeer
04-02-2010, 11:22 AM
TFC Clients: Edwards, Brennan, Sanyang, Barrett and O'Brian White

I'm confused because Edwards and OBW came through NCAA, does First Wave represent them for contracts? Did First Wave make the initial offer to Brennan back in '06 or was in Mo?

2Legit2Quit
04-02-2010, 11:53 AM
TFC Clients: Edwards, Brennan, Sanyang, Barrett and O'Brian White

I'm confused because Edwards and OBW came through NCAA, does First Wave represent them for contracts? Did First Wave make the initial offer to Brennan back in '06 or was in Mo?


They were signed with First Wave prior to the draft.

Jimmy changed representation when he resigned with TFC.

And here is an oldy from BS about TFC & their association with First Wave. Draw your own conclusions...


That and the fact that Messing has zero MLS players on his roster: www.globalsportgroup.com (http://www.globalsportgroup.com/)

As per my predictions:

1. Paulo Nagamura (Los Angeles Galaxy) - Not First Wave client
2. Danny O'Rourke (New York Red Bulls) - Not First Wave client
3. Jose Cancela (New England Revolution) - Not First Wave client
4. Adrian Serioux (Houston Dynamo) - IS A First Wave client
5. Nate Jaqua (Chicago Fire) - IS A First Wave Client
6. Rod Dyachenko (D.C. United) - IS A First Wave client
7. Jason Kreis (Real Salt Lake) - Has no agent, I presume
8. Tim Regan (Chivas USA) - IS A First Wave client
9. Ritchie Kotschau (Columbus Crew) - IS a First Wave client
10. Will Hesmer (Kansas City Wizards) - Not a First Wave client

That's 5 out of 10 picks AND the at least 4 already signed prior to the draft.

These guys do not have an outstanding amount of MLS guys - they only have 40 guys in the league by my count from their website.

If you have at least 9 guys already tabbed for one team after the expansion draft PLUS the potential Ronnie O'Brien trade (to make ten), well, that stinks of something. That's all I'm saying.

As a fan of the team, I'd be be watching that relationship very closely.... You don't want to limit your ability to get the right players just because the agent doesn't do business with them.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=437407

Beach_Red
04-02-2010, 01:52 PM
Some players that came on trial or brought in by other sources have been asked to move to First Wave before signing a deal with TFC, and changed shortly after signing or right before...Pablo Vitti is one of those players.

So that would have happened after First Wave organized the friendly between his club, Independiente, and TFC?

2Legit2Quit
04-02-2010, 02:04 PM
TFC Clients: Edwards, Brennan, Sanyang, Barrett and O'Brian White

I'm confused because Edwards and OBW came through NCAA, does First Wave represent them for contracts? Did First Wave make the initial offer to Brennan back in '06 or was in Mo?

First Wave represented them before the draft, as it represented previous drafted players like Pat Phelan and this years Nane Joseph.

Brennan was/is represented by Barry MacLean, who runs First Wave.

Check the early posts of this thread: http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=437407

BakaGaijin
04-02-2010, 03:35 PM
I would personally like to thank First Wave Sports, Barry McLean, and Mo Johnston for initially setting us up with the signings of Marco Reda and Adam Braz. These signings set a standard of futility in our back four that has been consistant right up to the present day.

Thanks cunts.

olegunnar
04-02-2010, 07:58 PM
All the coaches are represented by First Wave.
Carver too. He didn't have an agent in England??
It's almost as if it's a condition of employment.

I wonder why that would be?

olegunnar
04-02-2010, 07:59 PM
Some players that came on trial or brought in by other sources have been asked to move to First Wave before signing a deal with TFC, and changed shortly after signing or right before...Pablo Vitti is one of those players.

I wonder why they'd be asked to move?
Why would Mo want them to change representation? What's in it for him? :rolleyes:

billyfly
04-02-2010, 07:59 PM
I'd love for someone in the media to pick this up and run with it. (hint, hint)

James17930
04-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Investigating things like this is what the media should be doing.

There has definitely always been something fishy about the whole First Wave thing.

CretanBull
04-02-2010, 08:10 PM
An unrelated/related issue...

Most teams scout players, and then bring the guys that they like on trial to see how they work with the team. We seem to bring guys to trial as a means of scouting them. I'm sure First Wave gets the foot in the door for half these guys...

Beach_Red
04-02-2010, 08:25 PM
I wonder why they'd be asked to move?
Why would Mo want them to change representation? What's in it for him? :rolleyes:


When did he sign with them? Did he have to change, too? There are a lot of questions here and it would be nice to see someone follow them all the way, past TFC and into MLSE who can't be unaware of what's going on.

andyc
04-02-2010, 08:40 PM
Serioux was a First Wave client and he switched last year to be represented by his brother Marcus.....

Roogsy
04-02-2010, 08:51 PM
An unrelated/related issue...

Most teams scout players, and then bring the guys that they like on trial to see how they work with the team. We seem to bring guys to trial as a means of scouting them. I'm sure First Wave gets the foot in the door for half these guys...

I don't know what exactly the relationship is with First Wave but there is definitely the impression of special access or privilege. The limited info I have doesn't give me much confidence in Barry McLean.

billyfly
04-02-2010, 08:53 PM
What I want to know is if we all start complaining about First Wave in this thread, do our tickets mysteriously disappear, does the website go down..etc?

werewolf
04-02-2010, 09:04 PM
:rofl:

welcome to the business world of international football.

Roogsy
04-02-2010, 09:05 PM
The football world is pretty sleazy but I think we're surprised that it's happening in Canada and that it happened so quickly with such a new team.

Beach_Red
04-02-2010, 09:23 PM
I don't know what exactly the relationship is with First Wave but there is definitely the impression of special access or privilege. The limited info I have doesn't give me much confidence in Barry McLean.


On the other hand, MLSE probably invested zero in international scouting, so whatever they get through these guys is more than they would have otherwise.

Maybe they had companies submit bids to run TFC and took the lowest one....

wzhxvy
04-02-2010, 09:27 PM
Most companies have preferred staffing agencies...if you want to work on contract, you have to sign up with these guys...Manpower..Adecco...etc...would not be shocked if there is some similar arrangement here with TFC...a way to centralize things, get "preferred rates", etc...what shocks me more is that TFC actually does any scouting....

bgnewf
04-07-2010, 07:56 AM
First Wave clients include the following:

Mo Johnston
Preki
Nick Dasovich
Mike Toshack



just saying

GabrielHurl
04-07-2010, 11:59 AM
what is this first wave you speak of?

scooterTFC
04-07-2010, 09:45 PM
I'll throw out a completly speculative theory about the First Wave & TFC relationship. The MLS salary cap is a limit on total spending on players - salaries, transfer fees and agent fees. A team really looking to stretch the salary cap as far as possible could look to minimize/eliminate the agent fees charged against the cap. One method of doing this would be contract scouting services, event managment services or other professional services from an agency as a way to compensate them outside of the salary cap. In exchange for the extra revenue, the agency agrees to reduce agent fees billed in transactions contained within the salary cap rules. The team would then want to encourage potential new signings to work with first wave as means of dodging fees against the cap. No facts or evidence to support the theory. Its simple money laundering scheme the eliminates some fees billed against the cap with some expenses charged to other departments at the club that are restricted by the cap

Waggy
04-07-2010, 10:00 PM
I'll throw out a completly speculative theory about the First Wave & TFC relationship. The MLS salary cap is a limit on total spending on players - salaries, transfer fees and agent fees. A team really looking to stretch the salary cap as far as possible could look to minimize/eliminate the agent fees charged against the cap. One method of doing this would be contract scouting services, event managment services or other professional services from an agency as a way to compensate them outside of the salary cap. In exchange for the extra revenue, the agency agrees to reduce agent fees billed in transactions contained within the salary cap rules. The team would then want to encourage potential new signings to work with first wave as means of dodging fees against the cap. No facts or evidence to support the theory. Its simple money laundering scheme the eliminates some fees billed against the cap with some expenses charged to other departments at the club that are restricted by the cap

Very interesting theory. It makes a ton of sense, logically it all follows. I wouldn't at all be surprised if you were right. The problem remains though that we may be doing it with the wrong people in charge (of the club and the agency)

Beach_Red
04-07-2010, 10:01 PM
^ Sure, and if TFC had a roster that looked like it really couldn't fit under the cap like Seattle's, that would make sense. But we have the opposite problem - big, guaranteed, long-term contracts. It's more like they asked for bids on 'management services' and took the lowest one.

scooterTFC
04-07-2010, 10:14 PM
^ Sure, and if TFC had a roster that looked like it really couldn't fit under the cap like Seattle's, that would make sense. But we have the opposite problem - big, guaranteed, long-term contracts. It's more like they asked for bids on 'management services' and took the lowest one.
I'm not saying that this tactic guarantee's success. But its a plausible explanation for the relationship with first wave. Similar arrangements exists in vareity of different industries and business, they're typically known as 'round trip' deals.

billyfly
04-07-2010, 10:23 PM
This is the most interesting thread on this board hands down.

Beach_Red
04-07-2010, 10:35 PM
I'm not saying that this tactic guarantee's success. But its a plausible explanation for the relationship with first wave. Similar arrangements exists in vareity of different industries and business, they're typically known as 'round trip' deals.


As a tactic I think it's a great idea. I just don't think it's what's going on here. I do think it's what's going on in Seattle.

RedRum
04-07-2010, 10:39 PM
This is the most interesting thread on this board hands down.

Evidently, the mods think so too :rolleyes:

scooterTFC
04-07-2010, 10:57 PM
As a tactic I think it's a great idea. I just don't think it's what's going on here. I do think it's what's going on in Seattle.
Agreed Seattle and the LA Galaxy are clearly using some creative accounting to hide player costs. The Montero loan in Seattle being an obvious example. And the 3 players on loan to the Galaxy from Brazilian clubs also look a little suspect. I think one could argue that our loan deal for Vitti was also a little suspect... and First Wave's fingerprints were on that deal. Granted Vitti didn't pan out on the field... but that's another matter seperate from financial arrangements used to secure him.

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-07-2010, 11:01 PM
To go back to the scouting aspects of the thread. Does TFC even scouts other than one US scout? I was under the impression, TFC trials player instead of scouting them.

jloome
04-07-2010, 11:22 PM
Agreed Seattle and the LA Galaxy are clearly using some creative accounting to hide player costs. The Montero loan in Seattle being an obvious example. And the 3 players on loan to the Galaxy from Brazilian clubs also look a little suspect. I think one could argue that our loan deal for Vitti was also a little suspect... and First Wave's fingerprints were on that deal. Granted Vitti didn't pan out on the field... but that's another matter seperate from financial arrangements used to secure him.

Especially since it's not a loan anymore. They own Montero outright now. How they pulled that off (he was rated at $3.2M or something) is interesting, to say the least.

One day, someone on the business side of MLS is going to write a verrrry interesting book on creative accounting.

scooterTFC
04-07-2010, 11:53 PM
Especially since it's not a loan anymore. They own Montero outright now. How they pulled that off (he was rated at $3.2M or something) is interesting, to say the least.

One day, someone on the business side of MLS is going to write a verrrry interesting book on creative accounting.

This stuff happens in all kinds of business. Round Trip deals are done all the time in all sorts of businesses... ussually they are done to (a)inflate revenue (use coop marketing dollars to rebate the cost of product purchased by a dealer/reseller), (b)sneak around a company policy (hire a consulant instead of a permanent employee when managment freezes headcount) or (c) pre-pay a vendor for future expense at the end of fiscal year to hide leftover budget from accounting.

Oldtimer
04-08-2010, 07:50 AM
To go back to the scouting aspects of the thread. Does TFC even scouts other than one US scout? I was under the impression, TFC trials player instead of scouting them.

TFC supposedly has 2 African "scouts," but they may just be player agents, in reality.

The league has a scout (shared by all teams) in South America.

Beach_Red
04-08-2010, 08:05 AM
This stuff happens in all kinds of business. Round Trip deals are done all the time in all sorts of businesses... ussually they are done to (a)inflate revenue (use coop marketing dollars to rebate the cost of product purchased by a dealer/reseller), (b)sneak around a company policy (hire a consulant instead of a permanent employee when managment freezes headcount) or (c) pre-pay a vendor for future expense at the end of fiscal year to hide leftover budget from accounting.


Oh sure, there are all kinds of ways around a salary cap if the team is motivated, but there's no one at MLSE wondering, "How can we spend more money on this team?" That's no way to keep your job with a pension fund.