Mo Haters and Mo Supporters - Reasoned arguments???

[bgnewf]

Mo does get a lot of stick, from me and others, about many things. And in fairness he probably gets more stick than he deserves for a lot of them.

Mo did not create the apparently small talent pool of Canadians out there willing to play for TFC or in MLS for that matter.

Mo did not create the arcane allocation rules in MLS.

Mo did choose to manage a club in Canada, that has different visa and tax rules than the USA does, but in fairness he can't be blamed for that.

He has drafted well. Mo Edu for grass was a great play. Stefan Frei overseas will be a nice piece of business someday as well.

The indictments are well known:

- Apparent reliance to a great degree on Barry MacLean (debateable) for scouting and talent.

- The tendency to overpay players (again somewhat debateable if you buy into the "playing in Canada premium" argument).

- "Trader Mo" wheels and deals to the point where the club has never truly been settled in four years. More player turnover than any club in the league during this time.

- Running one of, if the the thinnest roster in the league for four years.

- A reputation for doublespeak and lying (again debateable when it is one person's word against another's) about player moves and the like.

- Doing a piss poor job of communication to the fanbase of the club what the long term plans are for the club in the way that Fellow MLSE employees Burke and Colangelo have done.

- An apparent focus on Europe for scouting overpriced triallists and new talent when a much more cost effective marketplace for players exists in Central/South America and Africa. (starting to change perhaps??)

- An unwillingness/inability (at least he has fixed this now) in the first three seasons to hire an experienced MLS coaching staff.

- Again, if you believe the rumours, having a bad reputation with some of the MLS players based on handling of player personel moves like Serioux and Robinson, potentially making Toronto an unpopular franchise to play for with MLS players.


Pro and con all of these points can potentially be agreed with, debunked or debated. Most likely the truth is somewhere in between with some good and some bad taking place...Most of the time the real truth is somewhere in the middle I believe.


I personally think that the style of management he follows and his apparent philosophy of building a contending team for the future is deeply flawed. The most definitive criticism I would have for him is in his handling of the cap. In a league with player cash in relatively short supply there is no more important skill for a GM to have than in finding the "balance" in the cap. You need to balance the competing objectives of satisftying players with their individual pay packets with not overpaying for talent, signing smart contracts that don't mortgage the club's future and finding bargains at the bottom of the salary scale that can contribute on the pitch. I feel strongly that this is the "epic Fail" for Mo Johnston and the primary reason why I would like him to leave.


A lot of Mo supporters need to remember that those of us who disagree with you often do so with reasoned arguments and do not rely on just innuendo and speculation to make them. Agree or disagree if you will but at least give some credit to the position.

For those of you who hate the guy I would say that respectfully that is not enough in of itself to call for his ouster. Much of the stick he takes is based on rumour and one side of a story. If you are going to hate, hate with the facts.

I for one will stick with the quote at the bottom of my handle over on U Sector:

And I quote: - "I guess if it (not making the playoffs) happens in the fourth year, yes of course I won't be here. It's as simple as that."
Mo Johnston - October 27th, 2009

[Whoop]

Haha... great minds think alike.

[MFG1]

he is the JFJ of the MLS

[Chevy]

he is the JFJ of the MLS

Not quite - JFJ couldn't draft for shite either.

I would say hes the Isaiah Thomas of MLS.

[Wooster_TFC]

There's nothing that can be said to support Mo other than he drafts okay and makes MLSE a whole lot of money.

And, if anyone comes on this thread and tries to support Mo, at the current state of the team, they are going to get ripped a new one on these forums.

I'd say the sorry state of the team can be placed at the feet of first MLSE, then Mo, then Carver/Cummins. The fact that MLSE didn't think TFC would be as popular as it was at the start caused them to come out with a one man FO in the first year, then Carver screwed us over by building (with Mo) an unbalanced squad and being entirely dependent on 2-3 wide players. Now that we finally have Preki, he has to tear down the team before he can build it up. Too bad we couldn't have had a mini-camp in December of January sometime for Preki to judge who was what on the roster.

[wzhxvy]

Just watch the end of the year press conference from last year...that will tell you everything you need to know about MO...

[menefreghista]

Mo Johnston should have been fired after we failed to qualify for the Concacaf Champions League in 2008. We've been prolonging the misery ever since.

[Waggy]

Drafting was the one thing Isaiah did well! (Its true! Look it up!)

My problem with Mo isn't his personality, nor the gambles or moves. It's his reputation. I don't know if I want a man running my team who can't even be considered trustworthy by his own fanbase. If we (and allegedly some players as well) feel he has a well deserved reputation for bending the truth and getting others to fall on the sword for him; what do other GMs, players and agents think? If his reputation precedes him, then he is actually unable to do his job in any sort of way and is actively hindering TFC by being involved with them. If some team hired JP Riccardi (a much more apt comparison in my mind), wouldn't all Jays fans, as well as anyone who'd followed his shenanigans, chortle at every injury report? Laugh at every trade rumor? Wait for him to put his foot in his mouth again? In a business where reputations mean a lot, having a tarnished one is not good. I'm all for giving guys 2nd chances, but TFC isn't a charity for people looking to improve their images. Some other team can try their luck with Mo. And I'd be wishing them nothing but the best.

Well, all that and his inability to find a decent winger or striker, shore up the back line, nor do particularly well in addressing this clubs needs in general. Apparently can't find chemistry within the locker room, has quick triggers with coaches, doesn't value MLS experience too highly, and continues to ignore fertile scouting grounds (as already stated).

[Beach_Red]

Good post. I really have no feelings one way or the other about the GM of TFC. (I have a lot of feelings about MLSE, but that's a different thread, right ;).

The items I do find interesting are these:

- Doing a piss poor job of communication to the fanbase of the club what the long term plans are for the club in the way that Fellow MLSE employees Burke and Colangelo have done.

- An apparent focus on Europe for scouting overpriced triallists and new talent when a much more cost effective marketplace for players exists in Central/South America and Africa. (starting to change perhaps??)

For the first one, I have to ask, long terms plans for an MLS team? And Brian Burke as a communicator? Okay, maybe the media understand hockey a lot better so they can communicate better with Burke, but over his career the guy hasn't exactly been fan-friendly, has he?

For the second, do we know what the scouting budget is for TFC? Given that TFC is often mentioned along with Seattle as the most profitable teams in the league, it should be the highest scouting budget in the league. Is it? Does TFC have a full-time scout based in South America?

[canadian_bhoy]

There's seems to be a growing group of mo haters and you can't blame them (I myself believe that he should go).

But I will say that there are certainly points for and against.

In his defence, he said he'd get the best Canadian players playing for us and he did it. Almost anything he said would get done has been done (no wonder MLSE like him).

My issue is that the end doesn't justify the means.

It's hard enough for the sole Canadian team in MLS to attract players from overseas (rather than going to chicago, LA, NYC etc.) We don't need the reputation that Mo has created on top of it.

Sure, Mo got JDG, but he did it at the expense of whatever it was that he promissed DeRo. Now there's a rift and it'll be tough for use to recover from it.

On top of that, the treatment of Dichio, Robbo and Serioux, or a movement to create a "team" (instead of hired mercinaries)

Finally (the last nail), he's screwed us with his revolving door policy. Too many crap players have fleeced us for way too much money. His quick fix signings like Robert and his constant trading (dunnivant, Marshall, Garcia etc.). He screwed us with the cap/allocation in an effort to push for the playoffs last season and his gamble flopped. He failed - so he must go.

Plus he screwed Celtic. ;)

[Pookie]

re: Treatment of Robinson

I find the criticism that DeVos labelled against Mo a little unfair. The facts are that the player was told in November that he wasn't a part of their long term plans. This gave the player every opportunity, including through the transfer window, to lobby for alternative employment.

4 months notice is pretty good in any industry.

Secondly, the player's salary is still being paid by the team. He wasn't released outright. In fact, he was given an extension before he was let go which wasn't necessary.

I really don't care what Mo told the media/public. There is probably truth to the position that Robinson didn't want to play here. I mean would you want to play here if you were told you weren't part of their plans?

Sure, it's spin but anyone who thinks that Burke is upfront with the fans and media in every aspect needs to follow him more closely.

What matters is that the player was given notice. He wasn't caught by surprise and had plenty of time to find a way to continue his career at a place of his choosing.

He also managed to successfully lobby the ownership to install grass before it had completed its 3rd season. He didn't act alone of course but deserves credit for that.

... as for most of the other stuff above... I concur. The evaluation of player talent and some of the dollars handed out suggest that we could do better with someone else. The bigger question is, if not Mo, then who?

[ag futbol]

But again (I think this point was beatup about 30x in the other thread).

When it comes to the way Robinson was treated nobody questioned the fact that he was told in November he wasn't part of the plans. The issue is that TFC led everyone to believe Robinson didn't want to be here when in fact he was told he was out.

[Yohan]

re: Treatment of Robinson

I find the criticism that DeVos labelled against Mo a little unfair. The facts are that the player was told in November that he wasn't a part of their long term plans. This gave the player every opportunity, including through the transfer window, to lobby for alternative employment.

4 months notice is pretty good in any industry.

Secondly, the player's salary is still being paid by the team. He wasn't released outright. In fact, he was given an extension before he was let go which wasn't necessary.

I really don't care what Mo told the media/public. There is probably truth to the position that Robinson didn't want to play here. I mean would you want to play here if you were told you weren't part of their plans?

Sure, it's spin but anyone who thinks that Burke is upfront with the fans and media in every aspect needs to follow him more closely.

What matters is that the player was given notice. He wasn't caught by surprise and had plenty of time to find a way to continue his career at a place of his choosing.

He also managed to successfully lobby the ownership to install grass before it had completed its 3rd season. He didn't act alone of course but deserves credit for that.

... as for most of the other stuff above... I concur. The evaluation of player talent and some of the dollars handed out suggest that we could do better with someone else. The bigger question is, if not Mo, then who?
I'm pretty sure i wrote something about this before but I'll just summarize again

Robbo was on a guaranteed contract (by the sounds of it)

So, exactly who can he lobby for a job with?

Can't go back to England because he'd have to go through a mutual termination with TFC. But being released means his salary cap would still go against TFC's cap, therefore giving Mo little incentive to release Robbo.

That leaves MLS. His huge salary means most teams will pass. Lucky that NY didn't and Mo made the deal to get part of Robbo's salary off the cap.

So it's not like Robbo had much of a choice but to put his fate in Mo's hands (terrible fate!)

[Pookie]

I'm pretty sure i wrote something about this before but I'll just summarize again

Robbo was on a guaranteed contract (by the sounds of it)

So, exactly who can he lobby for a job with?

Can't go back to England because he'd have to go through a mutual termination with TFC. But being released means his salary cap would still go against TFC's cap, therefore giving Mo little incentive to release Robbo.

That leaves MLS. His huge salary means most teams will pass. Lucky that NY didn't and Mo made the deal to get part of Robbo's salary off the cap.

So it's not like Robbo had much of a choice but to put his fate in Mo's hands (terrible fate!)

But who gave Robinson the extension, worth over $300k, in the first place?

If that is guaranteed money, then that is a fairly good example of either poor management or a manager rewarding a player for loyalty (much like the No Trade Clauses of the NHL). I guess you could argue either way ;)

Note that guaranteed contracts only count against the cap if the player is released after July 1st...

A) WAIVERS
Teams may waive players based on performance at any time during the MLS season. Players on guaranteed contracts waived on or after July 1 of any year, however, will continue to have their salary budget count against the team's salary budget

If Robinson's talent's were of interest to clubs in Europe or elsewhere, TFC could have transfered his rights and received allocation money as a result. There was an incentive to find him work elsewhere.

All in all, I'm just saying it isn't exactly a picture of a back stab that DeVos seemingly painted. Robinson had 4 months notice, a full wallet with no worries about his paycheck and an opportunity to continue his career elsewhere. When it comes to releasing a player, that sounds pretty fair.

[Beach_Red]

... as for most of the other stuff above... I concur. The evaluation of player talent and some of the dollars handed out suggest that we could do better with someone else. The bigger question is, if not Mo, then who?




Just like the lobbying for grass, the lobbying for a DP, the lobbying for a training and coaching staff and so on, there's probably a lot of lobbying going on for a bigger scouting staff.

The truth is, MLSE started this team on the cheap and have only been adding to the infrastructure when pressure is applied (and money made - would there really be grass without the Edu sale?). Some of that pressure comes from inside the organization and a lot of it from supporters.

Is the question really, is MLSE giving the GM of TFC enough resources? Or really, is the infrastructure of TFC what it shoud be for the league's most profitable team?

If Brian Burke has had to come in and completely rebuild the Leafs scouting department, what are the chances TFC have budgeted for a proper scouting department? After all, the Leafs sure don't need to scout South America or Africa.

[Waggy]

Its about the allocation of resources. Rogers hasn't increased their budget for the Jays (actually I believe they shrank it). But the new GM who's name I can't spell just gave the Jays the biggest scouting department in major league baseball. Why? Because it was how he felt he could get a competitive edge. Smart guy.

[Beach_Red]

Its about the allocation of resources. Rogers hasn't increased their budget for the Jays (actually I believe they shrank it). But the new GM who's name I can't spell just gave the Jays the biggest scouting department in major league baseball. Why? Because it was how he felt he could get a competitive edge. Smart guy.

If the resources were't increased, what did he give up for scouting? What should TFC give up for scouting?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but we really don't know how much MLSE have invested in TFC's infrastructure. We don't know what conditions were put on that investment. We've seen what looks like an increase in the team's budget every year, but who knows?

All I'm really getting at it is I don't care at all who the GM is, I just want to make sure that the team that's making the most money in the league is reinvesting as much of it as possible in the team. And given this company's reputation, I doubt that's the case.

[Yeoman]

i don't see anything about his 'scouting' trip to brazil

[Hitcho]

I'd agree that there are pros and cons when it comes to Mo. But I also think that there are two key facts you just cannot get away from when it comes to judging him:

1. the cons have been steadily mounting up over the pros for a while now; and

2. look what state the the club, its reputation and its playing squad are in at the start of Mo's FOURTH season.

If there is a "five year plan" then I don't want to see how it turns out based on wheree we are in year four. I used to be a Mo supporter, but he's turned me into a member of the angry mob in the last year or so.

[koryo]

Good post Newf.

At the end of the day, Johnston has to be judged by results. We're on the eve of season four with a thread-bare side that couldn't score in a month of Fridays and very shaky at the back. Last year's team was mediocre and that's as good as we've had it to-date.

Simply put, he's failed to deliver a winner. Hell, he's failed to create a balanced and competitive side. MLSE might not give a toss about the team winning but we do.

By that standard, Johnston has simply failed.

[Cashcleaner]

Good post Newf.

At the end of the day, Johnston has to be judged by results. We're on the eve of season four with a thread-bare side that couldn't score in a month of Fridays and very shaky at the back. Last year's team was mediocre and that's as good as we've had it to-date.

Simply put, he's failed to deliver a winner. Hell, he's failed to create a balanced and competitive side. MLSE might not give a toss about the team winning but we do.

By that standard, Johnston has simply failed.

+1

I mean, has everyone forgot all the shit that went down in the locker room last season, first with Carver and then with Cummins. As far as I can tell, TFC still has a poisonous locker room and things just aren't looking good for the new season this year. Mo's track record is obvious. I'm willing to let the first two season slide, but last year we absolutely needed to get our collective shit together and that never happened.

I would agree with the assessment that Mo remains with the club simply because the MLSE brass just don't know what else to do.

[Davenport]

He's a tosser.
Get rid.

[jabbronies]

These are the things that have really turned me into a Mo hater.

- We're on the hook for Robinson and Gerba's salary. In a capped league, this is bad!
- We gave up a first round pick for Serioux, then let him go for a 3rd round pick
- Nick Garcia
- The revolving door approach to building a team - he either doesn't know how to pick talent or he's constantly taking gambles that a player will perform.
- Not making the playoffs 3 years in a row (Seattle made it in their first year)

I kind of see that he has a somewhat half-assed, "lucky to fall into it" plan. We have a great young core on this team. If these guys to develop properly, we should be solid in about 3 years.

Other than his drafting luck, Dero and JDG, who has he signed that's been a keeper?
Jim Brennan and Marvel Wynne? 3 years and all we have to show is Jim Brennan and Marvel Wynne? One guy about to retire and another on the cusp of falling off the USMNT?

[bgnewf]

Its about the allocation of resources. Rogers hasn't increased their budget for the Jays (actually I believe they shrank it). But the new GM who's name I can't spell just gave the Jays the biggest scouting department in major league baseball. Why? Because it was how he felt he could get a competitive edge. Smart guy.


There is no salary cap for the scouting department. Don Garber in his own words on Saturday said this club is profitable. There is frankly no excuse for us not having the largest and best scouting staff in this league. In a cap league it is one of the few ways (along with amenities like training facilities and staff support) that you can use to get a competitive edge over the rest of your competitors.

If we had better scouting we could find players from the Americas or Africa willing to play for league minimums that would allow Mo to fill out our roster more completely and save precious cap space. Sainey Nyassi and Kenny Mansally in New England are examples of what I mean. Drafted out of Gambia by Steve Nichol, they have been starting XI players for the Revs for two years now and essentially make the league minimum. Good scouting led to a good bargain on two players that play and contribute.

Our scouting has been relatively poor in comparison to the rest of MLS and there is no excuse for it.

[Beach_Red]

^ Do we know if MLSE spend as much on scouting as other organizations? As you say, this club is profitable, there's no excuse for not having the best of every department in the league.

Maybe it's like grass, they have to be pressured to spend the money.

[Pookie]

These are the things that have really turned me into a Mo hater.

- We're on the hook for Robinson and Gerba's salary. In a capped league, this is bad!

Are you sure about that? Players released prior to July 1st don't count against the cap.

We may be paying their salaries but I don't think there is an impact against the cap.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

The grass was a city issue, not an issue of MLSE not willing to spend money, lets not get it twisted

[CretanBull]

Are you sure about that? Players released prior to July 1st don't count against the cap.

We may be paying their salaries but I don't think there is an impact against the cap.

Robinson was traded, not released. Officially, nothing has happened with Gerba (other than being sent home from training camp) so we'll see...

[Cashcleaner]

The grass was a city issue, not an issue of MLSE not willing to spend money, lets not get it twisted

Well...

Kinda. It's a grey area. MLSE could have invested in a stadium they controlled from the very beginning and we wouldn't be in a situation where the city/province has a say in the operational side of things.

Actually, I think Rudi has the most know-how on how the stadium deal worked out. He's more clear about what we could have done and what we couldn't.

[reggie]

i don't like mo...because its 4 days before the season starts and he has done nothing,no cb no fowards.
he also sold out our future last year(garcia trade)so that he could get a new contract...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Well...

Kinda. It's a grey area. MLSE could have invested in a stadium they controlled from the very beginning and we wouldn't be in a situation where the city/province has a say in the operational side of things.

Actually, I think Rudi has the most know-how on how the stadium deal worked out. He's more clear about what we could have done and what we couldn't.

sure but lets be honest here noone knew TFC was going to be a hit, i dont blame them, once again i feel quite certain the city demanded that it be turf, regardless its gone now and MLSE has put in grass and pushed for grass, they didnt have to much like the krafts dont have to leave their NFL stadium and dont. I dont like Mo like alot of people but I also dont like to confuse two issues (MLSE and Mo, im not so certain like alot of people that MLSE is out to destroy TFC or on a lesser scale neglectful of its needs)

[Pookie]

Stadium was built with government funding for the FIFA U20 event. MLS team involvement was not the primary reason.

[Beach_Red]

^ okay, the grass is a grey area because politics are involved (I think MLSE could get just about whatever they want from the politicians in this city but their specialty is passing the buck and staying out of sight - did we hear from them at all during the CBA negotiations?).

But we're talking about scouting. There's no salary cap on scouting, has this ownership reinvested enough of its profits in the team?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

fact is we dont know anything about the scouting system in place, i do agree id like to see more benefits from it, tehy have put it in the hands of mo, who has been less than satisfactory so its easy to believe that it would be the same in the scouting dept. They havent been afraid to pay our coaches well in the past so i dont think itd be any different here.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Dont forget that DCU has had a system for at least a decade and even theirs falls short sometimes...

[olegunnar]

The grass was a city issue, not an issue of MLSE not willing to spend money, lets not get it twisted

It's a MLSE issue. They decided grass would be a good capital investment and so they went and got it done.

Since day one...the bait to get us to open our wallets has been "authenticity"

We get pub tours, the authentic place to watch the game
We get a Euro beer sponsor (as opposed to Canadian for the Leafs, MGD for the Raps)
We get a 'authentic' name Toronto FC, rather than a MLS name like the Toronto Towers
Before a ball is kicked with have a fan clubs created, and a supporters section allocated, like the ;'authentic' stadia around the world.
We get 'authentic' concessions
We get an 'authentic' Manager with a European pedigree...complete with the bonus of having an accent!!
We get an 'authentic' SSS, with FIFA approved turf.

The thing is...after a few years MLSE realized that the FIFA suits were wrong...unless you support CSKA or Saprissa, turf is NOT 'authentic'...so they went and rectified it.

Read the articles, watch the videos. Authentic is the buzz word they always use. So in short, the grass increases the authenticity, and therefore was a priority.


Back on topic though...the whole Authenticy has bought Mo a lot of leeway I believe. He's kind of like a mascot...throw him in front of a camera and let him talk...and the accent makes him seem knowledgable about the game (to people that don't know better). It doesn't really matter much though to the suits because in MLS the costs are for the most part fixed. As to the scouting and coaching...I'd be willing to wager Mo is scoring points by saying "don't spend scouting, it'd be hard and expensive and the paperwork would be too hard to get...I'll do it"...and then he calls Barry Mclean.

The business side does its thing...and Mo is left alone to do whatever he wants, and he's shat the bed. Time to go.

[Pookie]

City documents show that this team was forecasted to draw 14,000 fans.

I would wager that our infrastructure was built around that business model initially. While there have been investments (north stand, grass), I would think that scouting would be down the list as it does not necessarily generate an immediate return.

Even if there had been an investment, it would probably take 4-5 years before we saw any return.

[olegunnar]

But we're talking about scouting. There's no salary cap on scouting, has this ownership reinvested enough of its profits in the team?

Have they been asked to?

If you take PBs posts here on the topic, it appears the business side has been given a boatload of excuses and reasons why it's not realistic economically.

Too hard to find people, too many agents, hard to get paperwork/visas blah blah blah. Remember that infamous post that said it is impossible to find good Latin talen in CONCACAF?

I'd bet those excuses are easy for them to swallow because a) they're coming from a guy with an accent and b) they're arguments for less spending.

[menefreghista]

We get a Euro beer sponsor (as opposed to Canadian for the Leafs, MGD for the Raps)

I'm convinced that this wasn't planned by TFC. They simply opened up the brewing rights to the highest bidder.

It wouldn't shock me if once Carlsberg's deal runs out we get a different beer supplier.

Even the Impact switched to Budweiser this year.

[olegunnar]

I'm convinced that this wasn't planned by TFC. They simply opened up the brewing rights to the highest bidder.

It wouldn't shock me if once Carlsberg's deal runs out we get a different beer supplier.

Even the Impact switched to Budweiser this year.

That may be right, I just grabbed a few ideas off the top of my head....but I think the overall point still stands. Authentic experience...from Peddie, Anselmi to PB...in so many of the articles and interviews, over and over.

[Beach_Red]

Back on topic though...the whole Authenticy has bought Mo a lot of leeway I believe. He's kind of like a mascot...throw him in front of a camera and let him talk...and the accent makes him seem knowledgable about the game (to people that don't know better). It doesn't really matter much though to the suits because in MLS the costs are for the most part fixed. As the scouting and coaching...I'd be willing to wager Mo is scoring points by saying "don't spend scouting, it'd be hard and expensive and the paperwork would be too hard to get...I'll do it"...and then he calls Barry Mclean.

The business side does its thing...and Mo is left alone to do whatever he wants, and he's shat the bed. Time to go.

This would be great if there was some way to guarantee the next guy (who'll be hired by the same people who hired this one - no one expects anyone higher up to go) wouldn't also say, "Oh, that's okay, I don't need the budget increased, I can do it." Because everyone at MLSE has a boss to please who doesn't want to spend any money. And whoever gets the job next will be someone looking for a job and, well, we know what people say in job applications (I wonder if MLSE will ask the applicant, "What will it take to win the MLS Cup? Or will they ask, "How cheaply can you run the team?).

[menefreghista]

That may be right, I just grabbed a few ideas off the top of my head....but I think the overall point still stands. Authentic experience...from Peddie, Anselmi to PB...in so many of the articles and interviews, over and over.

Oh I agree with your general point.

I'm actually kind of tired of being sold this 'authentic experience'.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Ole gunner- it was a city issue, MLSE had to get approval from teh city because BMO is on crown land, if the city said NO, there would in fact be no grass

[olegunnar]

Oh I agree with your general point.

I'm actually kind of tired of being sold this 'authentic experience'.

I screwed up. I got Peddie and Bob Hunter mixed up.

"Hunter said of any on-going talks to put down grass in the future. "To make the game as authentic as it should be natural grass is the solution, but again, we have partners and can't make these arbitrary decisions."

August 5th 2009.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

i do to a certain extent agree with you on 'the authentic' experience

[Beach_Red]

I'd bet those excuses are easy for them to swallow because a) they're coming from a guy with an accent and b) they're arguments for less spending.

Yeah, exactly. In an organization with no real head, no one who isn't at least a little worried about being replaced, no matter what the stated goal is, everyone involved knows that saving money is the real goal.

This guy or some other guy, anyone on a one year contract would do the same thing, have the same priorities. Starting out with short-term contracts on an expansion team pretty much guaranteed these results.

[prizby]

it is simple...he has a 5 year plan, let him have his 5 years

if after the 5th year, we and management are unsatisfied, expectations aren't met, then don't renew his contract

simple

[menefreghista]

it is simple...he has a 5 year plan, let him have his 5 years

if after the 5th year, we and management are unsatisfied, expectations aren't met, then don't renew his contract

simple

:picard:

[olegunnar]

This would be great if there was some way to guarantee the next guy (who'll be hired by the same people who hired this one - no one expects anyone higher up to go) wouldn't also say, "Oh, that's okay, I don't need the budget increased, I can do it." Because everyone at MLSE has a boss to please who doesn't want to spend any money. And whoever gets the job next will be someone looking for a job and, well, we know what people say in job applications (I wonder if MLSE will ask the applicant, "What will it take to win the MLS Cup? Or will they ask, "How cheaply can you run the team?).

If they're anything like the execs I deal with... in the short term they see budget lines and not peoples faces. In the long term they want to see an acceptable ROI. So reallocate some spending and you'll get your money now. Find a few diamonds in the rough and then sell them and you'll get more money in the future

If you want money...you can find it...you just need to make sure the budget lines are acceptable. You can get creative...share a scout with the acedemy 1 job, two budgets...create a position of an advance MLS scout, who also scouts CONCACAF for talent, 2 jobs, one salary.
There's money to be had...how much was that stupid ProZone system worth? I and 20,000 other people can tell them for free that Wynne is always out of position.
They spent on that...but they won't spend on development?

The excuses you are hearing are just that...excuses from one side.

[Beach_Red]

If they're anything like the execs I deal with... in the short term they see budget lines and not peoples faces. In the long term they want to see an acceptable ROI. So reallocate some spending and you'll get your money now. Find a few diamonds in the rough and then sell them and you'll get more money in the future

If you want money...you can find it...you just need to make sure the budget lines are acceptable. You can get creative...share a scout with the acedemy 1 job, two budgets...create a position of an advance MLS scout, who also scouts CONCACAF for talent, 2 jobs, one salary.
There's money to be had...how much was that stupid ProZone system worth? I and 20,000 other people can tell them for free that Wynne is always out of position.
They spent on that...but they won't spend on development?

The excuses you are hearing are just that...excuses from one side.

This is a good point.

I work in the movie and TV business which I've seen lately as being similar to sports - after the entertainment dollar. I've also seen many similarities beween the Canadian movie and TV business and MLSE. Neither one is very good at its core business - hit movies or championship teams - but both are very profitable. And there are endless excuses from those involved.

But excuses are a symbiotic relationship - someone has to give them and someone has to accept them. What I'm worried about more is the people accepting them because they aren't going to change and they'll continue to accept excuses. Maybe we'll get lucky and the next guy will be different, but maybe we won't. What I'd like to see is an organization that doesn't acept excuses from anyone.

[brad]

Lot's of things about Mo I don't like, but the biggest - the one that trumps them all - he doesn't know how to build a team.

Mo has acquired players, not built a team. Plain and simple.

[olegunnar]

This is a good point.

I work in the movie and TV business which I've seen lately as being similar to sports - after the entertainment dollar. I've also seen many similarities beween the Canadian movie and TV business and MLSE. Neither one is very good at its core business - hit movies or championship teams - but both are very profitable. And there are endless excuses from those involved.

But excuses are a symbiotic relationship - someone has to give them and someone has to accept them. What I'm worried about more is the people accepting them because they aren't going to change and they'll continue to accept excuses. Maybe we'll get lucky and the next guy will be different, but maybe we won't. What I'd like to see is an organization that doesn't acept excuses from anyone.


I think last years Dichio/JDG situation shows that they will spend money or at the least are aimiable to hearing out the case for spending.

It appears as if they created a new position for Dichio so they could have cap/roster room for JDG, they didn't let anyone go, they added to the coaching staff.
So not only did they spend DP money to get JDG, they also created a job for Dichio.

[Cashcleaner]

There is no salary cap for the scouting department. Don Garber in his own words on Saturday said this club is profitable. There is frankly no excuse for us not having the largest and best scouting staff in this league. In a cap league it is one of the few ways (along with amenities like training facilities and staff support) that you can use to get a competitive edge over the rest of your competitors.

If we had better scouting we could find players from the Americas or Africa willing to play for league minimums that would allow Mo to fill out our roster more completely and save precious cap space. Sainey Nyassi and Kenny Mansally in New England are examples of what I mean. Drafted out of Gambia by Steve Nichol, they have been starting XI players for the Revs for two years now and essentially make the league minimum. Good scouting led to a good bargain on two players that play and contribute.

Our scouting has been relatively poor in comparison to the rest of MLS and there is no excuse for it.

THIS.

People have to stop using the salary cap as their one big excuse for why things are not as they should be for TFC. There is no limit on the amount the club can spend on facilities, equipment, support staff, and management. Yes, we are restricted with regards to the actual make-up of the roster, but players alone don't carry the club - everyone has an impact.

If we can get good scouts, we'll have better chances at acquiring some fresh undiscovered phenoms. If we get good trainers and give them superior equipment, we can keep the squad healthy and in shape. If we get a good coach and manager, we can develop tactics that give our 11 guys on the pitch an added advantage.

[Beach_Red]

I think last years Dichio/JDG situation shows that they will spend money or at the least are aimiable to hearing out the case for spending.

It appears as if they created a new position for Dichio, they didn't let anyone go, they added to the coaching staff.
So not only did they spend DP money to get JDG, they also created a job for Dichio.


Yes, good point. But they were pressured to create the position for Dichio, they didn't come up ith the idea - they could also be pressured to create the position of full-time South American scout - or whatever the team actually needs.

We can't just assume that they're giving the team everything it needs to succeed. They do respond to what the fans demand, we've seen that a number of times. The question is, what do the fans demand?

[Bloor West FC]

:drinking:I like Mo

[TFC USA]

it is simple...he has a 5 year plan, let him have his 5 years

if after the 5th year, we and management are unsatisfied, expectations aren't met, then don't renew his contract

simple

I don't remember your postings so I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. If it is not....then welcome back mighty. :facepalm:

I'm willing to give Mo time. The moment this team is out of the playoff race then I bin him. Actually if we can't win the NCC that's it for me.

[olegunnar]

Yes, good point. But they were pressured to create the position for Dichio, they didn't come up ith the idea - they could also be pressured to create the position of full-time South American scout - or whatever the team actually needs.

We can't just assume that they're giving the team everything it needs to succeed. They do respond to what the fans demand, we've seen that a number of times. The question is, what do the fans demand?

Which is why I keep saying our Director of Soccer has to champion the cause of excellence on and off the field. MLSE might say no 80% of the time, but there needs to be a ying to their yang. I believe every good manager in every business has to champion their dept. "This is my vision for my dept, these are the tools I have and I'm going create an environment in which they will be successful, I'm going to coach them as best I can, and if I need more or different tools I'm going to lobby for them".

The same way in which one would expect the Director of Business Ops to go to the suits and say...Hey I've got this great money making idea....let me make it work....we need a Director of Soccer that is willing to do that on the playing side of things.

What we see though is a guy that's happy with the path of least resistance, and pulling the wool over a few people's heads, is much easier to him than actually attempting to be a success.

[Beach_Red]

^Are we totally sure about that?

Maybe you're right, maybe his is all on one guy and the next guy will change everything and get everything he needs. But the history of this company (and of the other companies that have the same majority shareholder) leave me less than optimistic.

Look, if you're the next guy up, or the next guy up after that and your decision is between getting your boss to okay more expenditures for scouting, PR departments, bigger staff, whatever, or replacing one guy, which option are you going to push at the meeting of a bottom-line obsessed company?

And to make it even easier, you get to tell your boss, "The fans only want one guy changed and it won't cost us a dime." Fantastic, give them what they want.

[Pookie]

Which is why I keep saying our Director of Soccer has to champion the cause of excellence on and off the field. MLSE might say no 80% of the time, but there needs to be a ying to their yang. I believe every good manager in every business has to champion their dept. "This is my vision for my dept, these are the tools I have and I'm going create an environment in which they will be successful, I'm going to coach them as best I can, and if I need more or different tools I'm going to lobby for them".

The same way in which one would expect the Director of Business Ops to go to the suits and say...Hey I've got this great money making idea....let me make it work....we need a Director of Soccer that is willing to do that on the playing side of things.

What we see though is a guy that's happy with the path of least resistance, and pulling the wool over a few people's heads, is much easier to him than actually attempting to be a success.

That view may well be true but it isn't completely black and white.

For example, they have invested in TFC Academy and they are expanding their reach:

"This was an historic soccer moment for Ottawa. The man in red was Stuart Neely, head coach of Toronto FC's Academy -- the place where the Major League Soccer club trains young men to become MLS players -- or better. They had never been here before on such a scouting mission...

... There was also bold talk of closer ties with local clubs, increasing the network of better qualified coaches, sharing ideas, even different combines -- Ottawa, Waterloo, Hamilton and other Ontario centres -- playing one another in a developmental league."

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/soccer/Toronto+Academy+came+town+expands+search+young+tal ent/2570531/story.html?id=2570531

I tried to do a little digging on the scouting budgets of MLS clubs but didn't find much. The Vancouver Director (Mo's equivalent) is apparently going on his own Mo style scouting mission.

I did find an article from April, 2008 which indicated that TFC was moving forward with Tim Regan. The article was telling in that it stated:

"Tim Regan is expected to be put in charge of scouting for the United States and South America in what is the first step toward the club's establishment of a European-style scouting department."

http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2008/04/tim-regan-to-be.html

If you go by the April 2008 date, it would be true that we are not really in a position to reap any rewards of a scouting department that is less than 2 years old.

Is that Mo's fault? I don't know.

Original projections for this team had them drawing just 14,000 fans per game. By deduction, I don't think they had the highest scouting budget in the league. Sounds very similar to Vancouver with the exception that Vancouver has USL experience.

It would seem that Mo was successful in lobbying for a "European style scouting department" but how good they are will probably not be known for another 3-5 years.

[mastermixer]

Well Mo lets see if you can spin this disaster of a pre-season into something good tomorrow...

"Just finished recording This is Football with Mo Johnston and Adnan Virk at The Football Factory. Airs Wednesday on GOLTV Canada"
http://twitter.com/LukeWileman/status/10898720843

[fetajr]

Not quite - JFJ couldn't draft for shite either.


JFJ drafted Kulemin

who has MO dug up??

+1 for JFJ

[Davenport]

it is simple...he has a 5 year plan, let him have his 5 years

if after the 5th year, we and management are unsatisfied, expectations aren't met, then don't renew his contract

simple

He's done so well in 4 years we should demand he gets an extension.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

This team is only marginally better than in Year One…"The Five Year Plan" to date has shown me nothing to be overly excited about…short or long term.

My issue is TFC has MLSE written all over it…sell outs…good merchandising sales…outrageous concession prices…and a crap product that the owners seem content with because it doesn't effect the bottom line. In fact, it’s a cash cow, producing the best ROI of any franchise it owns.

I (we all) should have known better…this ownership group just doesn't care as long as the "suckers" continue to come. Until that time comes…don't expect things to change. We all know it…we all say it…we all pay for it. It must be tough for them not to burst out in laughter at the sight of us falling over each other to get into BMO or on a bus to Columbus or Montreal.

I refuse to become a TFC "Leaf fan". TFC is not my first team. I have never bought into "Red Til I Die". I understand and respect many have wait a long time for this but I am not one. The best thing about this club is the atmosphere and the supporters I have met, many of whom I consider “good football friends”.

All I hoped to have was a local football team that I could enjoy, at a reasonable price…that hasn't happened for me. A season’s ticket holder from Day One…$15,000 later…the time for me to review “my” Five Year Plan is getting very, very close.

I hope I’m wrong but with Mo at the wheel…I doubt it…

[Suds]

My issue is TFC has MLSE written all over it…sell outs…good merchandising sales…outrageous concession prices…and a crap product that the owners seem content with because it doesn't effect the bottom line. In fact, it’s a cash cow, producing the best ROI of any franchise it owns.


It's what you get when a corporation is built solely on the premise of generating profit first, and customer service or product offered second. This opposed to a corporation built on delivering the best services/product as a way to generate revenue and profit. It may be subtle, but is makes all the difference to the corporate culture and its results.

----

To date Mo has made some good decisions and laid some real eggs. The problem is, in sports you're defined by wins and to date the team Mo has delivered has failed in that regard. So for now in my mind he gets a failing grade.

Question is - If TFC pull off a great season who gets the credit? Mo, Preki, MLSE?

[Beach_Red]

My issue is TFC has MLSE written all over it…
I hope I’m wrong but with Mo at the wheel…I doubt it…

When I started following TFC I was assured by everyone that "football supporters" were different from Leaf fans and TFC wouldn't become the Leafs. I was skeptical and with MLSE owning both teams I was worried, but I took a chance.

Now look at what you just wrote - the team has MLSE written all over it but the only thing you want changed is the GM. That's standard Leafs fan talk.

From the first day I looked on this forum there were players that were hated by the supporters. And the supporters were vocal in who, "must go," after every game. It sounded exactly like Leafs fans to me, when I first moved to Toronto and they were running Larry Murphy out of town. And then there was the love-in for Danny Dichio, rivalled only by the love-in for Doug Gilmour who Leaf fans somehow confused with Mario Lemieux.

MLSE play the fans in this town perfectly, nothing is ever their fault, they never have to worry about the senior management jobs and they never have to win anything. There's always someone for the fans to hate and renewed hope when they're finally replaced.

The only reason I'm holding out hope is that MLSE do respond to fans' demands and if people here demand they build the best, most transparent infrastructure in MLS they might do it.

Though it's more likely they'll fire Mo and promote Preki, because there's no way they'll pay two guys not to work here.

[Pookie]

^ amen

I wonder if the "service driven corporation" would have stepped forward with an MLS team to support the FIFA U20 stadium business deal?

Seems to me that the deal that brought the MLS team here, was one that was completely driven by a business decision and not one rooted in a passion for a team. If it were the latter, we'd have no team.

[mastermixer]

Difference between other teams MLSE owns and TFC is that TFC is still a very young and fickle fan base. Yes it the "new" team in town and everyone wants to check it out but pretty soon everyone that wanted to see what its all about will have done that.
These next few years are the ones that will keep the fans in the seats, but with Mo at the helm who knows whats gonna happen.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Now look at what you just wrote - the team has MLSE written all over it but the only thing you want changed is the GM. That's standard Leafs fan talk.

MLSE play the fans in this town perfectly, nothing is ever their fault, they never have to worry about the senior management jobs and they never have to win anything. There's always someone for the fans to hate and renewed hope when they're finally replaced.


Sorry Beach_Red…I probably combined two issues in the one response…I just answered the question: Do you hate or support Mo…so let me clarify why I don't support the GM.


Why Mo must go

Because he has fostered a "revolving door" attitude with this Club…at every level.

We've had more head coaches than seasons. He has continually failed to address cornerstone footballing issues with this team, namely in scoring and defending. Players he has acquired are moved in-and-out of the starting XI and team roster like a shell game. These are all diversion tactics…with all the movement…wheeling and dealing…he gives the appearance of really doing something.

Ultimately, his record going into Year 4 of his 5 Year Plan is poor and, IMO, appears to be moving no further ahead (hope I'm wrong).

IMO, a GM, especially for a new franchise, needs to build a foundation. Coaching…players…team personality…structure that all stakeholders buy into…a trust…a pact.

Mo is no more than a patter merchant…personally and professionally…loads of talk…light on results…I know…I've seen it before…I'm from Glasgow!


Why Mo won't go

Because TFC's ROI has grossly exceeded MLSE dreams. Their original expectations have been well documented, to use a footballing term…"Their in Dreamland" with the start of this franchise. The best amongst the four they own. The OTPF don't fire people who line their pockets…regardless of record…ask Richard Peddie. "Hey Dick, how are the condos coming along?"

Trust me…I'd love to change far more than the GM…and I'd start with the ownership group!

Hope this clarifies why I do not support Mo Johnston and this is not a "knee jerk Leaf fan GM firing".

And for the record…I'm a Habs fan! :)

[Beach_Red]

^ Thanks, that's interesting. This has been a good thread.

One thing to consider is:

Ultimately, his record going into Year 4 of his 5 Year Plan is poor and, IMO, appears to be moving no further ahead (hope I'm wrong).

Is it poor from MLSE's point if view? What we've seen is a slow increase in the expenditures on infrastructure of the team - coaching staff increased, scout added (so far we can only find one, so it can't really be called a scouting department), grass and so on and over the same time the team has gained more points each year. Last year the team tied for total points with the team that won the Cup.

And it's also likely that it was MLSE who set this five years to be competing for the Cup idea - and I don't think anyone ever called it a "plan." So they think they're on schedule and moving forward.

Of course this off season was a mess with a possible strike or lockout - remember what the Leafs looked like coming out of the lockout? We shouldn't be surprised at all (but we always are ;)).

It's also interesting you mention Glasgow. I'd never heard of Mo Johnston and what went down until I started following TFC and did some research and I come to a different conclusion. To me, if the same thing happened now with TFC and a player we'd blame the team and the management, not the player.

In fact, there are some real similarities with the Said situation - the team refusing to pay a third party (in Said's case it's some kind of 'fine' and in Glasgow it was a third party that held the player's contract and not the French team he was coming from). We're certainly not blaming Said for owing this fine, we're blaming TFC for not paying it.

[Luanda]

Mo must go for the simplest of reasons: he has no respect at all for the fans, who after all help fill up the coffers of MLSE.

[Pookie]

In fact, there are some real similarities with the Said situation - the team refusing to pay a third party (in Said's case it's some kind of 'fine' and in Glasgow it was a third party that held the player's contract and not the French team he was coming from). We're certainly not blaming Said for owing this fine, we're blaming TFC for not paying it.

There is a really interesting commentary on this "third party" stuff in the book, United We Fall by Peter Ridsdale, former Chairman at Leeds United.

He gave quite a few examples of third parties, usually agents but not always, claiming fees for services/circumstances that were fabricated. It is fairly widespread.

If that was the case here, hats off to Mo for standing up to what amounts to fraud and extortion.

[MFG1]

So we should be organizing like the leaf fans wont and have as many people as we can not show up to a game, perhaps just hang out out side for the game. If the only place it hits them is in the wallet, could you imagine on a highly televised game, the stands 3/4 empty? regardless of the fact that we have already paid for tickets, it would be embarassing to them if the cameras and media were more focused on the crowds outside the stadium and the daily sales on a hot saturday , zilch. Now I ask you who is man enough to partake? Even if the south end and the NEE is empty it would speak volumes, it could be a paramount moment in toronto sports.

Spend the after noon chanting fire mo, fire mo, fire mo to the tune of here we go, here we go, here we go from outside the stadium, Im sure the players will understand our stance.

[Ontario Arab]

FACT-We are probably worse off than we have ever been before.

[Blazer]

So we should be organizing like the leaf fans wont and have as many people as we can not show up to a game, perhaps just hang out out side for the game. If the only place it hits them is in the wallet, could you imagine on a highly televised game, the stands 3/4 empty? regardless of the fact that we have already paid for tickets, it would be embarassing to them if the cameras and media were more focused on the crowds outside the stadium and the daily sales on a hot saturday , zilch. Now I ask you who is man enough to partake? Even if the south end and the NEE is empty it would speak volumes, it could be a paramount moment in toronto sports.

Spend the after noon chanting fire mo, fire mo, fire mo to the tune of here we go, here we go, here we go from outside the stadium, Im sure the players will understand our stance.

The stands would be more like 9/10 full with a couple thousand south-enders missing. What would be missing would be the atmosphere that we bring when otherwise we’re a minority to the 18,000 others.

[cementhead]

All I have to say is Mo should have his head read.

[boozilla]

...chanting fire mo, fire mo, fire mo to the tune of here we go, here we go, here we go from outside the stadium, Im sure the players will understand our stance.

I like this.
If TFC lose both away games before the Philly game, this should be a plan.