We need a single table!

[T_Mizz]

This is becoming ridiculous the western conference has almost all played 13 games and still we (the third place team in the east) are better than the first place team. This league is so one sided its ridiculous. If not for that reason we should do it because it is the thing to do for a football league so why the heck not?

[James Oliphant]

This is becoming ridiculous the western conference has almost all played 13 games

2/7 teams is almost all?


and still we (the third place team in the east) are better than the first place team.

No...we're level on points but behind on goal diff.

[rocker]

currently the season isn't balanced so a single table doesn't really reflect equal schedules.
in the EPL for example every team plays the other home and away... in MLS you play a few more games against your division rivals...
also, the playoffs are not straight 1-8, 2-7 like in the NBA or whatever, so they have the division play in the playoffs.
they could try single table when they get to the point that they have enough teams to do home/away only with everybody and still have a nice number of league games.

[sully]

maybe we need to bring Montreal into the eastern conference quicker so as to lower the standard to help out the west... [insert smily face here - (where are they anyway?)]

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

its an american thing....always wanting the EAST VS WEST!!

Hockey was ruined when the took the single table away years agO!
1 vs 16

[Kevvv]

We likely won't ever see a single table if it means a balanced schedule - not with so many teams 3 time zones apart.

Speaking of which, we better start getting some wins against teams in the East, we can't count on the West to beat DC, Columbus, and NE if we can't do it ourselves, especially on the road.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/77826c83a5.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

IF the season was to end today..this is the way it should look! ! on a single table that is!

1 NER VS 8 DC
2 COL vs 7 DAL
3 LA VS 6 HOU
4 TOR VS 5 CHI


but the way its set up now..i think we would be playing Columbus first round....dont make sence really!

[Kevvv]

its an american thing....always wanting the EAST VS WEST!!

Hockey was ruined when the took the single table away years agO!
1 vs 16


And when they had a single table, the longest travel would have been to Chicago. When they expanded, only Philly and Pittsburgh were east of Chicago.

[Laurignano]

Single table has to come here..the MLS should stop trying to Americianize football and do what already works when the time is right. Obviously not now because it wouldn't make much sense but hopefully a single table will come once we cap off expansion.

[noochie]

Single table has to come here..the MLS should stop trying to Americianize football and do what already works when the time is right. Obviously not now because it wouldn't make much sense but hopefully a single table will come once we cap off expansion.

3 time zones and 2500 miles between some cities... I dont think these clubs would appreciate a single table.

Btw... what is next? Promotion / relegation to USL-1 ;) ?

[Roogsy]

3 time zones and 2500 miles between some cities... I dont think these clubs would appreciate a single table.

Btw... what is next? Promotion / relegation to USL-1 ;) ?

Because it would change things in their scheduling how?

[noochie]

Because it would change things in their scheduling how?

Seattle in '09, Philly in '10... you see where this is going?

[Roogsy]

Nope

We'd still play home and away up until there are 20 teams in this league, which won't be for a while. A single table won't affect scheduling in the least, but it would give credibility to the standings. This is just a math problem, not a logisitics problem.

[noochie]

TFC plays no more than 2 games on the road at the same time throughout the course of the year, that means a lot of back and forth. It is not like they are going on a "road trip" to knock out all west coast games at the same time here. Having the 2 leagues makes more sense now and through expansion...

Where is the rule that states they need to play a home and away against every team going forward past this year? The more west coast teams they add the more travel for East and vice versa. My point is that the travel on this continent wears on the clubs and they wouldn't appreciate more trips. I still feel this is the case, and managers do mention it from time to time in pressers.

Lets see what JC and Preki have to say after the home and home with Chivas later this year.

[Roogsy]

I have never seen any football league anywhere that does not have a home and away schedule. I would be interesting in seeing one. Like I said, I doubt we will ever see the end of a home and away with all teams unless MLS grows to larger than 20 and that is not happening any time soon. Therefore, the logistics are the same...so why the different math?

[noochie]

I have never seen any football league anywhere that does not have a home and away schedule. I would be interesting in seeing one. Like I said, I doubt we will ever see the end of a home and away with all teams unless MLS grows to larger than 20 and that is not happening any time soon. Therefore, the logistics are the same...so why the different math?

Not sure what you mean by math. Unless you mean distance travelled. Which domestic leagues are you referring to specifically? Because there wouldn't be very many that cross 3 time zones and the kind of distances between teams that MLS clubs have to travel.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

This is becoming ridiculous the western conference has almost all played 13 games and still we (the third place team in the east) are better than the first place team. This league is so one sided its ridiculous. If not for that reason we should do it because it is the thing to do for a football league so why the heck not?


Because it won't work in North america....fans will see their team near the bottom of a single division and not bother showing up. the difference in amount of games played has more to do with stadium dates then anything else, when all MLS clubs have control of their parks the a more balanced schedule could be inforced.

[CretanBull]

I wouldn't object to a single table where the Supporter's Shield is the real thing to play for...and if the play-offs got scrapped, I wouldn't complain.

[Roogsy]

Not sure what you mean by math. Unless you mean distance travelled. Which domestic leagues are you referring to specifically? Because there wouldn't be very many that cross 3 time zones and the kind of distances between teams that MLS clubs have to travel.

And yet MLS still does the home and away and simply "adds" games within the conference to fill out the schedule.

As soon as more teams come in to fill the east and west, those "added" games will simply disappear.

So why then no single table when the travel would be the same?

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I wouldn't object to a single table where the Supporter's Shield is the real thing to play for...and if the play-offs got scrapped, I wouldn't complain.


playopffs won't get scrapped they need that for a league championship, and money maker for league/clubs.

[Roogsy]

playopffs won't get scrapped they need that for a league championship, and money maker for league/clubs.

Yep...to do away with the playoffs would be to Eurocentric. North American fanbases simply do not understand "no playoffs".

That is shown in the fact that the Supporters Shield was an afterthought because of the supporters groups demand for league winner from the schedule itself.

[Jeff s]

Does it go by head to head or goal difference?

If it was head to head, we would be 3rd place.

[CretanBull]

The problem with the Supporters Shield now is that with an unbalanced schedule a team may end up with a light schedule by playing a weak team more than twice (the standard home & away) and end up with a points total that doesn't accurately reflect the quality of their team.

[Roogsy]

The problem with the Supporters Shield now is that with an unbalanced schedule a team may end up with a light schedule by playing a weak team more than twice (the standard home & away) and end up with a points total that doesn't accurately reflect the quality of their team.

Totally agree. But until there are enough teams that balance out the schedule so that we are NOT playing Columbus and DC 3 times a year as opposed to twice, what can be done?

Who are the lucky bastards that get to play San Jose more than twice this year?

[noochie]

And yet MLS still does the home and away and simply "adds" games within the conference to fill out the schedule.

As soon as more teams come in to fill the east and west, those "added" games will simply disappear.

So why then no single table when the travel would be the same?

My point is that it wouldn't / shouldn't be the same. There would likely be more intra-conference play and the possibilty that East teams may or not play all of the teams in the West at all. That is where I was going. Drop some of the West games to make the travel a little bit more bearable.

To make the point... I took a look at Manchester United's travel sched. For the entire 2008/2009 domestic season they will log 1935 miles (3870 return) and all in the same timezone.

In contrast Toronto to LA is 2530 miles (1 - way 5060 return)... currently TFC makes 2 trips there.

[noochie]

Does it go by head to head or goal difference?

If it was head to head, we would be 3rd place.

It is head-to-head, yes.

[Roogsy]

My point is that it wouldn't / shouldn't be the same. There would likely be more intra-conference play and the possibilty that East teams may or not play all of the teams in the West at all. That is where I was going. Drop some of the West games to make the travel a little bit more bearable.

To make the point... I took a look at Manchester United's travel sched. For the entire 2008/2009 domestic season they will log 1935 miles (3870 return) and all in the same timezone.

In contrast Toronto to LA is 2530 miles (1 - way 5060 return)... currently TFC makes 2 trips there.

They could do that...but when you play a max of 38 league games a year, half of which are at home, I don't think it's an issue that requires such drastic measures. Baseball teams, hockey teams and basketball teams do MUCH more travelling than that. So while comparitively speaking, MLS teams do more travelling than European teams, on the other hand they do less travelling than other sports in North America. And the thought of excluding a visit of a Beckham or an Henry to New York or DC (or Toronto if you think the MLS puts us on par with the big cities) it would be madness and a marketing nightmare.

[profit89]

single table is needed yup

[noochie]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/77826c83a5.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

IF the season was to end today..this is the way it should look! ! on a single table that is!

1 NER VS 8 DC
2 COL vs 7 DAL
3 LA VS 6 HOU
4 TOR VS 5 CHI


but the way its set up now..i think we would be playing Columbus first round....dont make sence really!

Exactly... they bracket by conference still unless more than 4 teams from 1 conference qualify... in which case they will be moved over into the other conference bracket. I think this would be the way it shakes out if it ended today.

East Bracket

E1 (NE) vs E4 (CHI)*
E2 (CLB) vs E3 (TFC)

West Bracket

W1 (LA) vs W4 (DCU)*
W2 (HOU) vs W3 (FCD)

* - wildcards

This format is new this year.

[noochie]

They could do that...but when you play a max of 38 league games a year, half of which are at home, I don't think it's an issue that requires such drastic measures. Baseball teams, hockey teams and basketball teams do MUCH more travelling than that. So while comparitively speaking, MLS teams do more travelling than European teams, on the other hand they do less travelling than other sports in North America. And the thought of excluding a visit of a Beckham or an Henry to New York or DC (or Toronto if you think the MLS puts us on par with the big cities) it would be madness and a marketing nightmare.

Can't argue with that based on present state of the league. And I wasn't proposing this was going to happen any time soon just saying that it could happen. The league also has to take into account all of the other "extra" performances that other sports don't participate in such as CL qualifying, major tournament qualifying (WCQ, Euro etc, etc). No other NA sport have those kinds of requirements.

Also, just because other leagues do more travelling doesn't lessen the impact on them either. I am sure the players and coaching staff would prefer less travel as well if it were up to them, of course those leagues demand it for some of the same reasons that you mentioned above.

[Cashcleaner]

Before I used to like the way the conferences are set up, but now I'm starting to agree that single table is the way to go. We'll have 16 teams in 2010 and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the league decides to opt for a change in format. By the time we see 20 teams, I'm sure it would be absolutely essential for proper scheduling.

We can still have the MLS Cup tourney, as well. The teams just wouldn't be divided by conferences and wildcards. Simply make it so the top 8 teams in the single table enter and compete accordingly.

[Fort York Redcoat]

By that point Cash you may as well make MLS cup staggered throughout the season so lower teams have something else to hope for.

Question. Why does the schedule and the table need to reflect each other? Could MLS schedule West/East to save on travel and then use a full table?:noidea:

[profit89]

Question. Why does the schedule and the table need to reflect each other? Could MLS schedule West/East to save on travel and then use a full table?:noidea:

Exactly. Keep the scheduling in the same format, just have a single table. How hard is that.

[profit89]

It's cause the league wants LA in, trust me

[profit89]

keep the playoffs tho.. it's a good idea.. mexican league does the same thing (ie, playoffs after the season)

[Fort York Redcoat]

Playoffs breed fairweather fans. It's nice to get new fans in but at some point I hope MLS considers looking further than "It's just the way we do things over here."

Case in point: How many of us would watch another sport (as well) if the local team got in to the playoffs? How much would we care if they won/lost? Jays in 92/93. Wait, is that showing my age? Christ...

[BeachRed]

Who are the lucky bastards that get to play San Jose more than twice this year?

Not the same lucky bastards who got to play Toronto more than twice last year.

What are the advantages to a single table for teams that fall out of the running early in the season? By the halfway point in the year, a whole lot of teams will have no chance to win anything. Why would those fans keep coming to soccer games with so many other sports to go see in their cities?

North American sports are always regionally based. It starts with high school state championships and then NCAA regions and then the pros. Other than Europe uses a single table, what's the big selling point for North Americans? Especially for a sport that still a bit of a hard sell.

[Flashman]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/77826c83a5.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

IF the season was to end today..this is the way it should look! ! on a single table that is!

1 NER VS 8 DC
2 COL vs 7 DAL
3 LA VS 6 HOU
4 TOR VS 5 CHI


but the way its set up now..i think we would be playing Columbus first round....dont make sence really!

The first tie-breaker is head to head, so we would sit ahead of LAG right now:

1 NER VS 8 DC
2 COL vs 7 DAL
3 TOR VS 6 HOU
4 LAG VS 5 CHI

[Roogsy]

Not the same lucky bastards who got to play Toronto more than twice last year.

What are the advantages to a single table for teams that fall out of the running early in the season? By the halfway point in the year, a whole lot of teams will have no chance to win anything. Why would those fans keep coming to soccer games with so many other sports to go see in their cities?

North American sports are always regionally based. It starts with high school state championships and then NCAA regions and then the pros. Other than Europe uses a single table, what's the big selling point for North Americans? Especially for a sport that still a bit of a hard sell.

I would understand that if there was a true regional schedule. But how is the MLS schedule regionally based now that would justify a conference format? Especially if they are not taking the top 4 in each conference duking it out first before the inter-conference playoff?

[olegunnar]

The first tie-breaker is head to head, so we would sit ahead of LAG right now:

1 NER VS 8 DC
2 COL vs 7 DAL
3 TOR VS 6 HOU
4 LAG VS 5 CHI

FYI
http://ww2.mlsnet.com/about/league.jsp?section=regulations&content=playoffs

If the playoffs started today it would be

NER (E1) vs Fire (Wildcard 1)
Crew (E2) vs TFC (E3)

LAG (W1) vs DCU (Wildcard 2)
Houston (W2) vs Dallas (W3)

The qtrs are home and homes, the semis and finals are one game playoffs.

[Nodoubtguy]

I think we should double our Columbus invasion size if we play them in the quarters!!!

[BeachRed]

I would understand that if there was a true regional schedule. But how is the MLS schedule regionally based now that would justify a conference format? Especially if they are not taking the top 4 in each conference duking it out first before the inter-conference playoff?

Well, it's a work in progress, for sure. Right now it's an unbalanced schedule - as pretty much all North American sports are. We play eastern teams three times and western teams twice. Just like hockey, football, and basketball - it's even more regional in NCAA, but then, there are hundreds of teams.

Maybe some of that has to do with tavel distances and the three time zones, but as you've said, that could easily be worked out. As it could be in the other sports, but I think tradition does play a part.

Right now soccer is still relatively new in North America and fighting for a place alongside well-established sports. I just think a single table would work against it at this point, making it look even more foriegn to North Americans (and I say North Americans because Canadians are quite used to the east-west stuff, too).

Baseball used to run two parallel single tables with no games between the leagues, but when teams started moving to the west coast they brought in divisions.

And as for the play-offs meaning so much, people used to say the Stanley Cup playoffs were the greatest amateur tournament in the world, played for the love of the game. The extra money players make if they win the cup is miniscule compared to what they made during the season, so the only real incentive is winning the cup.

The World Series was the same, starting as a rivalry between the two leages who didn't play each other suring the season - the first few Super Bowls were like that, too, and the NFL still has unbalanced conference play. Seems to be working okay for them.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Can't argue with that based on present state of the league. And I wasn't proposing this was going to happen any time soon just saying that it could happen. The league also has to take into account all of the other "extra" performances that other sports don't participate in such as CL qualifying, major tournament qualifying (WCQ, Euro etc, etc). No other NA sport have those kinds of requirements.

Also, just because other leagues do more travelling doesn't lessen the impact on them either. I am sure the players and coaching staff would prefer less travel as well if it were up to them, of course those leagues demand it for some of the same reasons that you mentioned above.


North americans are used to divisions and conferences and thats the way MLS should (will) stay, why make it dificult for people to follow a one division league.

[professor]

I like the concept of a single table - home and home, you play everyone

Replace the playoffs and add in a season long cup competition, open draw, home and home, winner advances, loser is done

Continue with the Supporter's Shield, CONCACAF Champions League and SuperLiga which makes the single table and final standings meaningful for as long as possible

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I like the concept of a single table - home and home, you play everyone

Replace the playoffs and add in a season long cup competition, open draw, home and home, winner advances, loser is done

Continue with the Supporter's Shield, CONCACAF Champions League and SuperLiga which makes the single table and final standings meaningful for as long as possible


the supporters shield should be dropped, it sounds like a condom ad.
make the playoffs and Mls Cup final 2 leg affairs, and a north american league cup with clubs from MLS , Canada, Mexico, USl

[BeachRed]

I like the concept of a single table - home and home, you play everyone

Replace the playoffs and add in a season long cup competition, open draw, home and home, winner advances, loser is done

Continue with the Supporter's Shield, CONCACAF Champions League and SuperLiga which makes the single table and final standings meaningful for as long as possible

If there was a way to work in a hundred years of tradition, I'd be totally with you on this.

Or, if soccer was the #1 sport in North America and the next closest was cricket, then sure, this would be great.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I gotta say the more I hear about playoffs the less interested I am in them. It's how the Galaxy won "the league " when they were one of the worst teams all season. I got a comprimise, how about we have a month long season that means you get into the playoffs then every game will mean something and then have best of 15 round tournament to decide the best team in "the league".

I know, I know. That sounds ridiculous...:p

[olegunnar]

When there are enough teams, I believe a single table is necessary if for no other reason than to create a fair schedule.

If we got to play the Western Conference 3 rather than 2, that would be a great advantage.
Say for example 40 points would get you in the playoffs...would a 40 point western conference team (that's played the crapids and RSL and SJ and the LAG 3 times) be more deserving than a 35-40 point Eastern Conference team (that's played DCU, NER. Fire, and us 3 times)? No way!

[Batman]

This is becoming ridiculous the western conference has almost all played 13 games and still we (the third place team in the east) are better than the first place team. This league is so one sided its ridiculous. If not for that reason we should do it because it is the thing to do for a football league so why the heck not?

2 teams in the west have played 13 games, 2 teams in the east have played 13 games.

Even though the facts are wrong, and also have nothing to do with the argument I understand the point.

I guess the main reason to have two conferences is to support a playoff structure. Playoffs are the norm in North American sports.

[James17930]

I don't think anyone really knows if it's goal differential or head-to-head because the table above places us 4th, but we're listed as 3rd on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Major_League_Soccer_season#Overall_standings