Today's News,Friday,Feb.19 [Archive]

keem-o-sabi

02-19-2010, 08:21 AM

good morning ya'll coed girls 1 (http://coedmagazine.com/2010/02/18/miss-coed-emily-lynn/) and 2 (http://coedmagazine.com/2010/02/12/julie-ordon-is-todays-daily-snapshot/)

in other MLS news, one of my former players at Queen City FC (now Buffalo FC since I sold it) was just signed to the Rapids. That's a couple players that have moved on from our little team to the big leagues. I'm like a proud papa.

Oldtimer

02-19-2010, 08:37 AM

Are MLS players asking for too much in CBA negotiations? (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=soc-mls/news/news.aspx?id=4290634)

It's really hard to say if they are asking "too much." The writer compares it to other Americans in whatever job, but a more apt comparison would be with other soccer players worldwide in smaller leagues or other atheletes in other North American sports. In that case, the prospect of being cut mid-season without compensation is out of line.

koryo

02-19-2010, 08:43 AM

Beach_Red

02-19-2010, 09:27 AM

^^ He's really only telling half of the story. What of the impact of recent expansion franchise fees on the league accounts? If the league is so obsessed with controlling costs, why don't they fold their loss-leaders as they gradually introduce stronger markets into the league? Wouldn't that just increase overall revenues?

Point is this: MLS is quite culpable for the position they're in. Sick of losing money? Right then, fold the teams that haemorrhage money. Not all at once, but for each strong market than comes in (Philly, Portland, Vancouver), dump the three poorest teams in the league. It's a hard decision, but the brutal truth is that MLS cannot go on crying poor while they subsidize franchises that cannot support themselves.

Has any sports league in North America become stronger after teams folded? Won't that tell future investors the nationwide market for soccer is weak so there's little chance of a proper TV deal, so why invest?

Folding teams could have a real snowall effect and take the whole league down.

Parkdale

02-19-2010, 09:35 AM

Has any sports league in North America become stronger after teams folded?

Folded no, relocated yes.

(I understand that's like saying 'downsized' instead of 'laid off', but there is a difference)

look at the NFL (arguably the strongest of North American leagues)

1984 - Colts move from Baltimore to Indy.
1988 - LA Raiders move BACK to Oakland, and the Rams leave LA for St.Louis
1996 - The Cleveland Browns move to Balitimore to become the Ravens, and then fan pressure makes a new ' Browns' in Cleveland.
1997 - Houton Oilers move to Tennessee and become the Titans. Houston later gets a new team (the texans)

when you look at the NFL, moving teams out of a dead market had been a huge success, and often the dead markets push to get back into the game with new ownership and better stadiums.

yellowfellow

02-19-2010, 09:44 AM

in other MLS news, one of my former players at Queen City FC (now Buffalo FC since I sold it) was just signed to the Rapids. That's a couple players that have moved on from our little team to the big leagues. I'm like a proud papa.

I never made it big under your guidance....

Beach_Red

02-19-2010, 09:55 AM

when you look at the NFL, moving teams out of a dead market had been a huge success, and often the dead markets push to get back into the game with new ownership and better stadiums.

Oh, I like the idea of moving teams - just not downsizing, as you say.

Of course, none of those NFL teams moved because of a lack of ticket sales or fan support. In every case it was because the owners wanted the local governments to build them stadiums and they refused.

And, I do think MLS can/should cut loose some teams in markets that won't work someday, just not yet.

gtaguy

02-19-2010, 09:59 AM

^^ He's really only telling half of the story. What of the impact of recent expansion franchise fees on the league accounts? If the league is so obsessed with controlling costs, why don't they fold their loss-leaders as they gradually introduce stronger markets into the league? Wouldn't that just increase overall revenues?

Point is this: MLS is quite culpable for the position they're in. Sick of losing money? Right then, fold the teams that haemorrhage money. Not all at once, but for each strong market than comes in (Philly, Portland, Vancouver), dump the three poorest teams in the league. It's a hard decision, but the brutal truth is that MLS cannot go on crying poor while they subsidize franchises that cannot support themselves.

I totally agree although relocating is more of a likely option.
If the city where the team is located doesn't give a crap , the supporters are not there. Club can't find sponsors, The club bleeds money outs its ying yang. Then i think its time for the MLS entity to acknowledge failure and ship out the team to a city where it will be wanted loved and nurtured .
I hope garber can see this becuase if trying to prop up clubs goes on for way to long and there is no steady progress in the sport. I can see that the NASL ghost will come back to bite us

keem-o-sabi

02-19-2010, 10:41 AM

I never made it big under your guidance....

I'm not the GM nor coach of this team haha. I'm just a playa

rocker

02-19-2010, 10:41 AM

I'm not really fond of relocation... cuz I remember what it meant when Winnipeg and Quebec lost NHL teams because the league felt they could make more money going to the US. It may work for a while, but you never know if it'll be the solution. Better to grow the game (that's the point of MLS afterall) than simply go to the next town and see if it works. It's easy to say "relocate" when it's not your team. But if TFC were the weak sister, would you be willing to let her go to Atlanta?

keem-o-sabi

02-19-2010, 10:44 AM

What teams are they going to move then? All the little guys just built their own stadiums, don't you think that would in turn kill government assistance in building future stadia? "Hey spend 30-50mil on me, then if I don't like the results I'm going to bail". There will never be another stadium built in MLS if that's the case.

Major difference between NASL and MLS....Stadiums. not one NASL team had their own stadium. It's starting to turn the corner, the teams that lose money, lose it due to ownership. It's not like they've been in these new stadiums for 30 years and they are falling apart and want a new thing built for them and aren't getting it.

I totally agree although relocating is more of a likely option.
If the city where the team is located doesn't give a crap , the supporters are not there. Club can't find sponsors, The club bleeds money outs its ying yang. Then i think its time for the MLS entity to acknowledge failure and ship out the team to a city where it will be wanted loved and nurtured .
I hope garber can see this becuase if trying to prop up clubs goes on for way to long and there is no steady progress in the sport. I can see that the NASL ghost will come back to bite us

spark

02-19-2010, 10:50 AM

Has any sports league in North America become stronger after teams folded?

CFL? It could be argued some of the best years in recent memory were after all the teams in the US dropped off.

Beach_Red

02-19-2010, 10:57 AM

CFL? It could be argued some of the best years in recent memory were after all the teams in the US dropped off.

Yes, that's true.

And it really defied expectations. Everyone said if the CFL didn't expand it would die and it turns out to be stronger now than ever - mostly bsed on the strength of the western teams. Someday those cities may have strong soccer franchises, too.

boban

02-19-2010, 11:00 AM

Folded no, relocated yes.

(I understand that's like saying 'downsized' instead of 'laid off', but there is a difference)

look at the NFL (arguably the strongest of North American leagues)

1984 - Colts move from Baltimore to Indy.
1988 - LA Raiders move BACK to Oakland, and the Rams leave LA for St.Louis
1996 - The Cleveland Browns move to Balitimore to become the Ravens, and then fan pressure makes a new ' Browns' in Cleveland.
1997 - Houton Oilers move to Tennessee and become the Titans. Houston later gets a new team (the texans)

when you look at the NFL, moving teams out of a dead market had been a huge success, and often the dead markets push to get back into the game with new ownership and better stadiums.
Thing is these cities were not NFL 'dead' markets. They moved out more because of stadium deals than anything else. Greed of the owner, not because there were not fans willing to support the team.

rocker

02-19-2010, 11:23 AM

stronger now than ever - mostly bsed on the strength of the western teams. Someday those cities may have strong soccer franchises, too.

the big thing that made the CFL stronger was TSN deciding it was gonna plaster CFL all over the channel.

I still think the CFL is a joke tho.. with only 8 teams. It has some ownership problems and hasn't expanded since the USA experience. It has lost a canadian team since then.

bangersandmash

02-19-2010, 11:45 AM

While there is more money in MLS now than there was a decade ago the players can stop dreaming about big raises until the MLS gets a vastly improved television deal. No sport has every paid players big money without a either massively lucrative television deal or an insane level of advertising and sponsorship money (or both if you're Formula 1). MLS has neither. Without the TV deal the CBA will always be a drama-queen fight about nickels, dimes and terms of employment. Not real money.

Carts

02-19-2010, 12:55 PM

Yes, that's true.

And it really defied expectations. Everyone said if the CFL didn't expand it would die and it turns out to be stronger now than ever - mostly bsed on the strength of the western teams. Someday those cities may have strong soccer franchises, too.

The main reason for CFL's growth was TSN...

The network basically asked the CFL to sell its soul to them, giving TSN 95% of creative power in the league - in return, they would invest 'NHL style TV money' in production, promotion, and news'...

Many in the broadcasting world were shocked, and said outright that TSN was "nuts" to try and build a league that was struggling - they said there was no example of a Canadian Network making something bigger than it is - and they were wrong...

The World Junior Championship was, for a long time, unheard of in Canada - and in many countries that participate still is... However, with no competition, and no strong programming, TSN "made" an event out of an amateur tournament...

Now the event is one of the biggest on the calendar, not just for TV, but in the Canadian Culture... People can hate on TSN all they want, but they created the hype and pride that is now the IIHF WU20 Championship (or World Juniors as we call it)...

The MLS is doing the right thing by paying to be on ESPN, because that gives them 'some' credibility in the sports world... Being on ESPN is more than just the game, its the promotion, and the news worthy aspect of having promos running during major sports, and highlights during SportCentre...

Carts...

STB

02-19-2010, 01:00 PM

The main reason for CFL's growth was TSN...

The network basically asked the CFL to sell its soul to them, giving TSN 95% of creative power in the league - in return, they would invest 'NHL style TV money' in production, promotion, and news'...

Many in the broadcasting world were shocked, and said outright that TSN was "nuts" to try and build a league that was struggling - they said there was no example of a Canadian Network making something bigger than it is - and they were wrong...

The World Junior Championship was, for a long time, unheard of in Canada - and in many countries that participate still is... However, with no competition, and no strong programming, TSN "made" an event out of an amateur tournament...

Now the event is one of the biggest on the calendar, not just for TV, but in the Canadian Culture... People can hate on TSN all they want, but they created the hype and pride that is now the IIHF WU20 Championship (or World Juniors as we call it)...

The MLS is doing the right thing by paying to be on ESPN, because that gives them 'some' credibility in the sports world... Being on ESPN is more than just the game, its the promotion, and the news worthy aspect of having promos running during major sports, and highlights during SportCentre...

Carts...

Was your boss watching over your sholder when you wrote that ???

Lets all have a TSN love in <3

:D

TFCRegina

02-19-2010, 01:03 PM

Carts, I'd disagree that the main part was TSN. It was a combination of really two things.

The revival of the 'Rider Nation,' with TSN's coverage. The Roughriders have been the most popular team in the CFL since the 60s, and had struggled on the field for 20 straight years. It's pretty tough when the most fertile place (SK) for Gridiron football in the country has a struggling team. Of course, the team is popular across all provinces with fans of the game, as well as Sask ex-pats living in provinces, it's not uncommon to see large crowds of Rider fans at each game.

The Riders recovery, coupled with TSN's coverage, revived the CFL. The Riders are the 2nd largest team in all of Canada with regards to Merch sales, and I'm talking all sports. Only the Leafs sell more merchandise than the Riders do.

Roogsy

02-19-2010, 01:20 PM

Of course TSN wasn't the sole contributing factor in the CFL's continuance or success. But without TSN that success (if you want to call it that) would never happen. Truly, without TSN, all you would have is the Western Canada Football League with all of 4 teams.

Cart's point is dead on. What the MLS is doing is necessary just as it was for the CFL.

Beach_Red

02-19-2010, 01:22 PM

The Riders recovery, coupled with TSN's coverage, revived the CFL. The Riders are the 2nd largest team in all of Canada with regards to Merch sales, and I'm talking all sports. Only the Leafs sell more merchandise than the Riders do.

So, just out of curiosity, do you think the same thing could work if TFC, Vancouver and Montreal were in a Canadian soccer league?

Could TFC suppoerters be the "Rider Nation," so to speak, and could TSN do for soccer what it did for the CFL and World Juniors?

Oldtimer

02-19-2010, 01:36 PM

the big thing that made the CFL stronger was TSN deciding it was gonna plaster CFL all over the channel.

I still think the CFL is a joke tho.. with only 8 teams. It has some ownership problems and hasn't expanded since the USA experience. It has lost a canadian team since then.

The CFL has tradition on its side. That actually worth quite a bit.

Oldtimer

02-19-2010, 01:38 PM

So, just out of curiosity, do you think the same thing could work if TFC, Vancouver and Montreal were in a Canadian soccer league?

Could TFC suppoerters be the "Rider Nation," so to speak, and could TSN do for soccer what it did for the CFL and World Juniors?

A Canadian Soccer League would not work at this point, except as a lower division league.

TFCRegina

02-19-2010, 01:41 PM

So, just out of curiosity, do you think the same thing could work if TFC, Vancouver and Montreal were in a Canadian soccer league?

Could TFC suppoerters be the "Rider Nation," so to speak, and could TSN do for soccer what it did for the CFL and World Juniors?

Absolutely.

TFC is in a position of advantage as it's really one of the few clubs that people have heard of coast to coast. It's less evident here on the Prairies, where i think one in five has heard of the club (and less follow it), but when people see me wearing my jersey, I get asked, "Oh, how did [Toronto] FC do this year?"

When the Whitecaps enter the league, things might change, and same with NASL's new FC Edmonton. FC Edmonton seeks to do what the Oilers failed to do with the Leafs, which is steal the Prairies away from Toronto FC.

Soccer isn't going to be big in the small towns, realize that, because there are few small towns with teams, partially due to lack of equipment (specifically nets) and a place to play. It's also perceived as a sport of 'less manly' people.

This isn't to say it can't be embraced. It just needs to be packaged properly. People often let their kids do nothing in the summer in small towns, which has negative effects on their abilities to play sports such as hockey. If it was packaged as a way to stay fit for the hockey season, and to increase leg strength, hand eye coordination, etc, with minimal risk of injury it could probably be 'sold' in small towns.

Another thing is that 80% of Saskatchewan lives in urban centres (cities are 5,000 or larger in Saskatchewan) and that these are going to be your primary targets anyway...

If anyone will make soccer big, it will be CBC or TSN, and it'll be whoever chooses to do the best job covering it. CBC needs to lose the Toronto centric attitude and start showing NASL in addition to MLS...

Edit:

And I didn't read it as a Canadian soccer league...I read it as a soccer league...a Canadian Soccer League probably wouldn't succeed at this point. Somebody needs to crack the West with a big league before a smaller one can succeed.

Gazza_55

02-19-2010, 01:49 PM

So, just out of curiosity, do you think the same thing could work if TFC, Vancouver and Montreal were in a Canadian soccer league?

Could TFC suppoerters be the "Rider Nation," so to speak, and could TSN do for soccer what it did for the CFL and World Juniors?

TFC and Vancouver Whitecap ownership would never leave MLS to be in a Canadian league - for about a dozen reasons. The main one being their franchise value for go from approx $50m to about $500,000 within a year.

bangersandmash

02-19-2010, 01:55 PM

A Canadian Soccer League would not work at this point, except as a lower division league.

If at all. Canada is too wide and the population spread too thinly to make it economically viable. Especially for "lower leagues." Lower leagues would be most likely to survive if you took Canada and the US and broke them into several leagues along the following lines:

1. Pacific Northwest
2. South west
3. Central Prairies
4. South East
5. North East

Travel would be reduced and familiarity would breed contempt. Almost (I said *almost*) all major canadian cities are located within an hour or two of of several major american cities. Outside of Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa/Hamilton there are few Canadian cities close enough for viable competition -- especially at the minor league level. Better to tack ourselves onto a US League.

Waggy

02-19-2010, 02:39 PM

Over the years the NBA has folded and moved teams dozens of times. It seemed to work out. The difference is the age we live in though. Instead of back in the day when people would just go "Oh it didn't work out", folding or relocating is now seen as a sign of severe weakness and symptomatic of league-wide problems. Just think of the Expos move. Even the Sonics move. That said, those leagues were well established and had long histories in those markets before the moves. A league like the MLS thats trying to make a name and carve out its niche can probably afford to take the PR hit of moving a team to a better market. Provided they can find a better market. They can then use that threat as leverage to get other struggling teams the funding needed to build SSS and run their teams using the TFC model. Saying "If you don't help us with this stadium, then pro soccer is leaving" may not have politicians quaking in their boots, but at least its something.

Also as a CFL fan and not a TSN employee, I can vouch for the fact that TSN did basically save the CFL. They used NFL level production to change the image of the CFL from bush league to reputable. The CFL barely even had a first down marker when CBC was running it. Barely had watchable pre/post games, no graphics, no buzz. When indifferent football fans saw a professional looking broadcast they gravitated towards it, they didn't instantly feel like they were watching something second rate. Just something different. The level of broadcasting makes a huge difference to fans, semi-fans and non fans alike. Carts, tell your bosses thanks.

tfcmanu

02-19-2010, 02:49 PM

If there is one thing Toronto FC fans can count on this season, it is a hard working, systematic coach who takes his job very seriously. And he is smart!...Etc

http://www.examiner.com/x-38691-Toronto-FC-Examiner~y2010m2d19-TFC-preseason-has-everything-coming-together-nicely-under-the-Preki-Plan

drewski

02-19-2010, 02:51 PM

the g20 was announced for the same weekend the Galaxy are in town, which will make for a traffic/security nightmare

http://www.international.gc.ca/media/aff/news-communiques/2010/071.aspx

Damien

02-19-2010, 03:19 PM

Beach_Red

02-19-2010, 03:38 PM

If at all. Canada is too wide and the population spread too thinly to make it economically viable.

But doesn't the success of the CFL say the opposite? $4.5 million payrolls, 5 million viewers for the Grey Cup, sold out stadiums in Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton. It's got to be cheaper to take a soccer team across the country than a CFL team.

I just wonder if soccer has a better chance of success in Canada than US, that's all. Right now we're totally dependent on the game being a success in the US - and people talk like that's an inevitability, but I'm not sure. It's a crowded sports market and may never get too far past a couple of big urban areas.

Whereas in Canada, with no Major Legue Baseball to compete with for TV ratings and sponsorships in the summer, and also with Canadians being more interested in international competition, soccer may have a better chance here.

So far there's no interest in the United States in international play in any sport.

TFC07

02-19-2010, 03:51 PM

But doesn't the success of the CFL say the opposite? $4.5 million payrolls, 5 million viewers for the Grey Cup, sold out stadiums in Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton. It's got to be cheaper to take a soccer team across the country than a CFL team.

I just wonder if soccer has a better chance of success in Canada than US, that's all. Right now we're totally dependent on the game being a success in the US - and people talk like that's an inevitability, but I'm not sure. It's a crowded sports market and may never get too far past a couple of big urban areas.

Whereas in Canada, with no Major Legue Baseball to compete with for TV ratings and sponsorships in the summer, and also with Canadians being more interested in international competition, soccer may have a better chance here.

So far there's no interest in the United States in international play in any sport.

Agreed.

Oldtimer

02-19-2010, 03:58 PM

So far there's no interest in the United States in international play in any sport.

Actually, the US National Team is better supported than MLS. Their matches are well attended, over-all. The England-US game in the WC will be huge in the U.S.

http://www.sams-army.com/ is the website of their organized SG.

billyfly

02-19-2010, 04:02 PM

What the hell is this?

http://mistergoal.blogspot.com/

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cR82UTxZNu0/SADCBzSA--I/AAAAAAAABUg/y2DrsAulyTI/s400/TORONTO_mascot01_ab.png

drewski

02-19-2010, 04:05 PM

Folded no, relocated yes.

(I understand that's like saying 'downsized' instead of 'laid off', but there is a difference)

look at the NFL (arguably the strongest of North American leagues)

1984 - Colts move from Baltimore to Indy.
1988 - LA Raiders move BACK to Oakland, and the Rams leave LA for St.Louis
1996 - The Cleveland Browns move to Balitimore to become the Ravens, and then fan pressure makes a new ' Browns' in Cleveland.
1997 - Houton Oilers move to Tennessee and become the Titans. Houston later gets a new team (the texans)

when you look at the NFL, moving teams out of a dead market had been a huge success, and often the dead markets push to get back into the game with new ownership and better stadiums.

some of those teams didn't necessarily leave cause the market was dead. in some cases it was a negotiating tactic to get a new stadium deal

Cleveland was still drawing 65-70k on average per game and Houston was close to selling out before it was announced they were gonna move

Beach_Red

02-19-2010, 04:06 PM

Actually, the US National Team is better supported than MLS. Their matches are well attended, over-all. The England-US game in the WC will be huge in the U.S.

http://www.sams-army.com/ is the website of their organized SG.

That's good. And yes, if the US does better in the World Cup it will really help.

I just wonder about our constant looking to the US. It may be my recent, unpleasant, exprience in the TV business where we'd do anything to get a US network to air the show, but I've started to realize that US and Canadian markets are not exactly the same. Close, of course, but not the same. In the TV business is was well-known that a show like The West Wing actually had better ratings (per capita) in Canada than the US. It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen. The same with movies, some do better in Canada than the US.

So, I just wonder if soccer might be like that, if it might do better in Canada than the US. I could easily see soccer dominated the summer sports scene in Canada but I can't imagine it overtaking baseball in the US.

Shway

02-19-2010, 06:10 PM

What the hell is this?

LOL copyright infringement?

Detroit_TFC

02-19-2010, 09:36 PM

Not sure this warrants a separate thread so posting this here.

American Soccer News has a report on the first ever supporters' summit with the Revs front office.

http://revs.american-soccer-news.com/?p=415

Of note, the official supporters section will be a standing section. Not a terrace and of course they already stand in their section but probably is now "legal" to do so. This might seem like an irrelevant point since they do it already but to me it shows a growing prioritization of supporters.

The above, plus the recent supporters' summit between the Chicago supporters and the Fire FO, and the new terrace at the Dick, shows that some of the new "best practices" used to good effect by us and TFC's FO, and now also Seattle and Philly, are starting to be adopted by some of the older teams. IIRC KC has done this in the past, not sure about other teams in the league.

bangersandmash

02-20-2010, 08:48 AM

But doesn't the success of the CFL say the opposite? $4.5 million payrolls, 5 million viewers for the Grey Cup, sold out stadiums in Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, Edmonton. It's got to be cheaper to take a soccer team across the country than a CFL team.

But CFL has the substantial national television deal. Their money isn't just from gate and merch. It's a different set of economics and one that MLS needs to start emulating (moreso in the US, of course)

Whereas in Canada, with no Major Legue Baseball to compete with for TV ratings and sponsorships in the summer, and also with Canadians being more interested in international competition, soccer may have a better chance here.

This isn't true. Sportsnet is clogged with Jays games all summer long because they have the national deal.

I'm not saying that soccer doesn't have an audience or couldn't be popular. I'm saying that the money to travel and ship the players around will be much, much harder to come by. Look to the model that JR hockey uses... QMJHL, WHL, OHL, etc. They survive, are well supported and are successful because they focus on regional rivalry, and (relatively) short travel distance. As a result they are able to thrive and produce quality talent for upper divisions.