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denime
02-05-2010, 06:25 AM
Mornin'


Canadian championship sked announced (http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/02/04/nutrilite_sked_2010/)


TFC's Jacob Peterson on the mend (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2010/02/04/sp-jacob-peterson.html)


TFC’s Marvell Wynne earns spot on U.S. roster (http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/mls/torontofc/article/760752--tfc-s-marvell-wynne-earns-spot-on-u-s-roster)


Preki short on specifics (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2010/02/05/12749376-sun.html)



SUNSHINE (http://www.torontosun.com/sunshinegirl/)

scooter
02-05-2010, 08:45 AM
mornin d

Nuvinho
02-05-2010, 08:48 AM
McCarthy's Musings: The Friday Five Highlights Intriguing Preseason Trialists
http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/major-league-soccer/2010/02/05/1776860/mccarthys-musings-the-friday-five-highlights-intriguing

colman1860
02-05-2010, 08:49 AM
How much of an issue is the salary cap? And will it mean Carl Robinson, Dwayne De Rosario and Adrian Serioux -- the core of the team -- might not return? "We're still thinking. We'll see where it goes. I don't know. I can't tell you."



Surely this is a typo?!?!

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 08:53 AM
It's a giant leap from a whole lot of nothing. I personally wouldn't put too much weight on it. It's the Sun remember.


What I got out of Preki's answers is that he isn't giving ANYONE any indication of how he wants to shape up the team. He's not going to be like Mo, promising players and goals. He's going to put the boys to work, bring in some other players and work on building HIS team.

I fucking love this part:


And, he smiled. Quietly.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-05-2010, 09:13 AM
Surely this is a typo?!?!

yeah theres no way thats true, im sure that even if Preki finds him to be a problem itll be mended, it would fucking have to be

Carts
02-05-2010, 09:34 AM
Surely this is a typo?!?!

Unfortunately its not a typo - and people need to start accepting the fact there is problems...

People can hate on Wheeler (his article yesterday) but there is a big issue going on with the team right now - and DeRo not being here could be the result...

Every time we bring it up, people scoff at it... Unfortunately, its nothing to scoff at...

Carts...

daner90
02-05-2010, 09:35 AM
How much of an issue is the salary cap? And will it mean Carl Robinson, Dwayne De Rosario and Adrian Serioux -- the core of the team -- might not return? "We're still thinking. We'll see where it goes. I don't know. I can't tell you."

I believe that the bolded part of the quote is a question either the writer or someone at the presser was asking, not something Preki was saying....

Ossington Mental Youth
02-05-2010, 09:39 AM
I believe that the bolded part of the quote is a question either the writer or someone at the presser was asking, not something Preki was saying....

kinda what i was thinking too with the article that was written yesterday and the fact he didnt want to talk

boban
02-05-2010, 09:54 AM
Unfortunately its not a typo - and people need to start accepting the fact there is problems...

People can hate on Wheeler (his article yesterday) but there is a big issue going on with the team right now - and DeRo not being here could be the result...

Every time we bring it up, people scoff at it... Unfortunately, its nothing to scoff at...

Carts...
Personally I am getting a little tired of his antics and it wouldn't pain me if he left.

wzhxvy
02-05-2010, 09:56 AM
oh goodness...what is going on here ?

Ossington Mental Youth
02-05-2010, 10:00 AM
i think alot of things are being blown out of proportion but it doesnt help that he has voiced his issues with his contract, that being said we'd have a giant hole to fill and do you really wanna see him play somewhere else?

maninb
02-05-2010, 10:00 AM
If Seriuox and Robbo are gone then the salary cap isn't an issue...so why would DeRo go? Nonsense....

boban
02-05-2010, 10:03 AM
If Seriuox and Robbo are gone then the salary cap isn't an issue...so why would DeRo go? Nonsense....
Csz Dero wants DP money. His situation is irrelevant to what happens to any other player.

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 10:08 AM
How many times was I told that me bringing up DeRo's contracts was a non-issue.

The guy deserves DP status, and IMO has for the past couple years. His production and overall help to the whole team (incl. Dynamo) has been unparalleled in this league by any non-DP player.

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 10:16 AM
How many times was I told that me bringing up DeRo's contracts was a non-issue.

The guy deserves DP status, and IMO has for the past couple years. His production and overall help to the whole team (incl. Dynamo) has been unparalleled in this league by any non-DP player.


I guess i figured bringing up the contract ONCE IT WAS SIGNED was the issue. When the trade first happened, DeRo negotiatied for quite a while before signing. That should have been the end of it.

But DeRo knows Toronto, he knows the fans here and how they pick favourites and put pressure on the team an how MLSE capitulates and gives bad contracts to favourites. The Leafs have been doing it for years, there's no reason TFC won't do it, too.

Ossington Mental Youth
02-05-2010, 10:17 AM
surely he understands too that its the MLS board of govs that decides/approves on dps (or somnething along those lines), thats not to mention that he signed the contract.
Och regardless i think its much ado about nothing (and if we had a dp slot id give it to him)

boban
02-05-2010, 10:17 AM
How many times was I told that me bringing up DeRo's contracts was a non-issue.

The guy deserves DP status, and IMO has for the past couple years. His production and overall help to the whole team (incl. Dynamo) has been unparalleled in this league by any non-DP player.
He's a career MLS'er. Houston didn't seem to think he should get it - in his prime. I feel with him aging he shouldn't get it either.
Look, the intent of the DP rule was not necessarily to sign MLS players for contracts over $400,000, but to attract footballers that were known from other leagues to add more legitimacy to the league. It wasn't, nor is it, a stat sheet that rewards a players pay. Although level of play is important, the DP should bring other intangibles to the table.

JonO
02-05-2010, 10:26 AM
^^ Regardless of whether he deserves it or not, how many teams are lining up to take on his salary? Honestly. Remember how much less he was paid at Houston? Not saying he doesn't deserve it, just saying....

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 10:38 AM
He's a career MLS'er. Houston didn't seem to think he should get it - in his prime. I feel with him aging he shouldn't get it either.
Look, the intent of the DP rule was not necessarily to sign MLS players for contracts over $400,000, but to attract footballers that were known from other leagues to add more legitimacy to the league. It wasn't, nor is it, a stat sheet that rewards a players pay. Although level of play is important, the DP should bring other intangibles to the table.

I don't disagree with the logic...

What I'm saying, is if Mo agreed that DeRo would get DP status at some point (which is what the rumours have been) if he signed the first year, then IMO he deserves that DP spot.

Everyone wants an impact DP player, correct? Who makes more of an impact on this team as it stands? JDG has yet to make much of an impact, Gerba, White, Barrett, Guevara, Vitti, etc, etc. Nobody touches DeRo in terms of impact to the overall team production and/or results.

My point is, if that's the deal they agreed with DeRo in the first place, he has every right to be pissed about his current standing with the club. Do you agree? And if this is the case, and you were in his situation, would you not make your unhappy feelings heard? I sure would.

Nuvinho
02-05-2010, 10:42 AM
MoJo logic:

1. Mo promised DeRo DP status, because he had no clue that JDG would be available

or

2. Mo figured that with the new CBA, he'd either get another DP slot or a cap increase to pay DeRo DP money

or

3. Mo just lost his mind

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 10:56 AM
My point is, if that's the deal they agreed with DeRo in the first place, he has every right to be pissed about his current standing with the club. Do you agree? And if this is the case, and you were in his situation, would you not make your unhappy feelings heard? I sure would.


I would fire my agent for not getting it in the contract.

Maybe because I work in TV and the movies and put up with producers all the time I have no patience for this. I have an agent, she negotiates the contracts and then I live up to my end. Even first year kids straight out of Sheridan know the value of a producer's "promise." If this guy was a rookie I might cut him some slack, but if this stuff is true it's embarrassing coming from a veteran.

Carts
02-05-2010, 11:04 AM
3. Mo just lost his mind

He would need to have a sane mind to lose it, no? :D

Carts...

Whoop
02-05-2010, 11:12 AM
If DeRo was supposed to be made a DP... why wasn't it written into the contract he signed!?!?!?!?

How hard of a concept is that?

It's like he's doing a reverse hold out.

Pigfynn
02-05-2010, 11:13 AM
It can't bode well for DeRo if in fact he is sulking about this contract thing right now. Think about it, you're Preki...you've been preaching team, team, team all about unity and the single unit mentality. Now here comes probably your most talented player saying me, me, me! Do you make an example of him and cast him out? Most would say "Never! it's DeRo!" ...but Preki is one hard SOB just ask Amado Guevara.

It's like if you end up in prison and you don't want to get beaten and disrespected, they say you should go up to the biggest, toughest dude and kick his ass so they other prisoners take you seriously.....err well not really but you get the idea right?

v00d00daddy
02-05-2010, 11:13 AM
I don't disagree with the logic...

What I'm saying, is if Mo agreed that DeRo would get DP status at some point (which is what the rumours have been) if he signed the first year, then IMO he deserves that DP spot.

Everyone wants an impact DP player, correct? Who makes more of an impact on this team as it stands? JDG has yet to make much of an impact, Gerba, White, Barrett, Guevara, Vitti, etc, etc. Nobody touches DeRo in terms of impact to the overall team production and/or results.

My point is, if that's the deal they agreed with DeRo in the first place, he has every right to be pissed about his current standing with the club. Do you agree? And if this is the case, and you were in his situation, would you not make your unhappy feelings heard? I sure would.

I kind of agree with you here except for a couple of things:

a) Guevara was a pretty important component to TFC playing well, while he was here.

b) Just like Guevara, DeRo can be given credit for a lot of good that happened with TFC but also bad. DeRo does not play a team game well. He doesn't seem to fit in with any kind of tactical scheme and as far as I can tell, nobody knows what position he plays...not even DeRo.

c) Would I not make my unhappy feelings heard? Nope...not publicly.

DeRo is starting to make me feel like it's all about DeRo.

v00d00daddy
02-05-2010, 11:14 AM
It can't bode well for DeRo if in fact he is sulking about this contract thing right now. Think about it, you're Preki...you've been preaching team, team, team all about unity and the single unit mentality. Now here comes probably your most talented player saying me, me, me! Do you make an example of him and cast him out? Most would say "Never! it's DeRo!" ...but Preki is one hard SOB just ask Amado Guevara.


Bang on. Team, team, team doesn't mesh well with the new "me first" DeRo.

DeRo better get his attitude in check and let his agent worry about how much money he gets paid.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 11:18 AM
DeRo is starting to make me feel like it's all about DeRo.

I still stand by my statement that you can tell a lot about a guy's character by how he plays.

Someone mentioned to me early in the year, "I don't like him. He's a selfish player." I kind of laughed it off saying "You're crazy."

Now, it's slowly coming to the surface. And it's making me uncomfortable.

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 11:25 AM
Thing is, I never saw this Me Me Me from DeRo until about half way through last season... or about the same time the JDG as a DP rumours started surfacing.

Who knows, but what I do hope, is that Preki can nip it in the butt before the season starts. I'd prefer to have DeRo than play against him... again.

reggie
02-05-2010, 11:32 AM
i dont want to trade dero....but what do you think we can get for him??

Whoop
02-05-2010, 11:32 AM
I have to give this person credit, she told me this a couple of games into the season.

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 11:33 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think many teams want his salary....

reggie
02-05-2010, 11:36 AM
what is dero's salary and term?

Whoop
02-05-2010, 11:36 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think many teams want his salary....

So then STFU DeRo.

I can see why he's bitching now. He's stuck and he feels he deserves more.

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 11:38 AM
what is dero's salary and term?

I think last year it was about $400k + $175 in allocations or something. About the same as GBS was making, maybe a little less.


So then STFU DeRo.

I can see why he's bitching now. He's stuck and he feels he deserves more.

;)

TFC Tifoso
02-05-2010, 11:44 AM
MoJo logic:

1. Mo promised DeRo DP status, because he had no clue that JDG would be available

or

2. Mo figured that with the new CBA, he'd either get another DP slot or a cap increase to pay DeRo DP money

or

3. Mo just lost his mind


A little bit of 1 and 2 and a lot of 3....

anyways, I'm just glad people are realizing how detrimental Mo is to the growth of TFC....

gtaguy
02-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Dero's stock is dropping by the minute and im starting to think that hes really not the classy guy we all thought he was.

Dero is a Lifer MLS'er and quite frankly i think he makes damn good cash for a top player in this league.

boban
02-05-2010, 11:54 AM
I don't disagree with the logic...

What I'm saying, is if Mo agreed that DeRo would get DP status at some point (which is what the rumours have been) if he signed the first year, then IMO he deserves that DP spot.

Everyone wants an impact DP player, correct? Who makes more of an impact on this team as it stands? JDG has yet to make much of an impact, Gerba, White, Barrett, Guevara, Vitti, etc, etc. Nobody touches DeRo in terms of impact to the overall team production and/or results.

My point is, if that's the deal they agreed with DeRo in the first place, he has every right to be pissed about his current standing with the club. Do you agree? And if this is the case, and you were in his situation, would you not make your unhappy feelings heard? I sure would.

I'm not too concerned if you agree with the logic. it is what it is.
But you do bring a good point up about what was agreed to between Mo and Dero last off season. However, you, I, nor any on here was privy to the discussion and we are merely speculating. But if the premise is correct, yes Mo fucked up and is not a person to be trusted.

Also, there you go again thinking stats is the only thing to do with DP money. It doesn't. DeGuzman is a waay better player than Dwayne. You can see that when they play for the National team. Other factors determine DP money, although production is a key part of it.

I am just sick and tired of Dero's whining and bitching. If you want to play here, then fine STFU and play. If not get lost. If he continues to bitch I think it would be better to cut him loose.

boban
02-05-2010, 11:54 AM
Dero's stock is dropping by the minute and im starting to think that hes really not the classy guy we all thought he was.

Dero is a Lifer MLS'er and quite frankly i think he makes damn good cash for a top player in this league.
Pretty much what I am saying.

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 12:01 PM
I'm not too concerned if you agree with the logic. it is what it is.
But you do bring a good point up about what was agreed to between Mo and Dero last off season. However, you, I, nor any on here was privy to the discussion and we are merely speculating. But if the premise is correct, yes Mo fucked up and is not a person to be trusted.

Also, there you go again thinking stats is the only thing to do with DP money. It doesn't. DeGuzman is a waay better player than Dwayne. You can see that when they play for the National team. Other factors determine DP money, although production is a key part of it.

I am just sick and tired of Dero's whining and bitching. If you want to play here, then fine STFU and play. If not get lost. If he continues to bitch I think it would be better to cut him loose.

I never said stats are the only thing to do with a DP. What I said, is "everyone wants an impact DP player, correct?". I stand by that. When JDG was signed as our DP many, if not the majority of people were unsure whether he deserved DP.

In no way shape or form do I think DeRo is a better or more talented player than JDG. That's just foolish.

I'm fed up with his bitching too, I'm just offering up some reasons WHY he might be bitching. I've not stated any facts towards his statements, they're all assumptions based on the limited knowledge we have on the situation.

denime
02-05-2010, 12:02 PM
Thing is, I never saw this Me Me Me from DeRo until about half way through last season... or about the same time the JDG as a DP rumours started surfacing.

Who knows, but what I do hope, is that Preki can nip it in the butt before the season starts. I'd prefer to have DeRo than play against him... again.

I was told before last season started that this was a main reason why he never got a contract in Europe.It was to much ME for teams overseas.

Shaughno
02-05-2010, 12:04 PM
I was told before last season started that this was a main reason why he never got a contract in Europe.It was to much ME for teams overseas.

Understandable. I still think he wasn AS MUCH about himself until about halfway through last season. I remember watching a bunch of Houston games prior to him coming to TFC and he was more of a team player than he has been with us.

Roogsy
02-05-2010, 12:05 PM
I love how we are so willing to tell the only impact player we've ever had to "get lost".

I am waiting for someone to tell me how we are going to replace his dozen goals and many assists. Who else will singlehandedly win us the NCC when we need to win by 5 goals.

Maybe he should indeed leave....to where he will be appreciated. I know Houston and San Jose fans appreciate him a helluvalot more than we do. Mo has us all swindled and we buy it by the truck-full. We don't think we need a two-time league MVP.

Roogsy
02-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Understandable. I still think he wasn AS MUCH about himself until about halfway through last season. I remember watching a bunch of Houston games prior to him coming to TFC and he was more of a team player than he has been with us.

Would YOU pass it to Barrett? LOL!

boban
02-05-2010, 12:14 PM
I love how we are so willing to tell the only impact player we've ever had to "get lost".

I am waiting for someone to tell me how we are going to replace his dozen goals and many assists. Who else will singlehandedly win us the NCC when we need to win by 5 goals.

Maybe he should indeed leave....to where he will be appreciated. I know Houston and San Jose fans appreciate him a helluvalot more than we do. Mo has us all swindled and we buy it by the truck-full. We don't think we need a two-time league MVP.
Nobody is questioning his performance. It's his off field attitude and its getting tiresome.
Fact is he is on the downside of his career (32 in 3 months) and is looking to cash out.
That's why you didn't hear anything in San Jose about and very very little in Houston. He was younger. Now time is running out.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 12:28 PM
Roogs it's not about appreciating him. It's about what looks like to be whining from his part, whether it is warranted or unwarranted.

When will athletes ever learn that it's not good PR to bitch about money... unless you're making the league minimum of $19,000 and in some cases some people still don't want to hear about it.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was uncomfortable when we saw the DeRo acceptance speech when he got the RPB Man of the Year. You're getting award and your pitching your websites and business ventures to the point of ad nauseam?

I think he needs new PR people.

Roogsy
02-05-2010, 12:35 PM
To be fair...he had all of 5 minutes to think of what to say before it was recorded. It was done on the fly. I am sure anyone could hav done better had they known they were going to be giving an acceptance speech.

Roogsy
02-05-2010, 12:37 PM
Nobody is questioning his performance. It's his off field attitude and its getting tiresome.
Fact is he is on the downside of his career (32 in 3 months) and is looking to cash out.
That's why you didn't hear anything in San Jose about and very very little in Houston. He was younger. Now time is running out.

Isn't his on-pitch performance the only thing that should matter?

Off-field attitude? Is he pulling a Tiger and screwing whores? Is he running people down in his car drunk? Is he being arrested for internet child-porn?

No...he's mentioned his contract situation. Something all athletes do when there are disagreements. This is nothing new but we're acting like he is breaking laws. It's pretty ridiculous.

As for San Jose and Houston, actually it's been pretty consistent on his part, like it or not. And yet, the fans there loved him nonetheless.

DurhamAthletic1
02-05-2010, 12:39 PM
at the end of the day he signed his own contract. shouldnt have signed if he didnt like the money. Its not like now that hes back his DERO entertainment hasnt taken off or anything he gets his free plug in whenever he can.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 12:41 PM
To be fair...he had all of 5 minutes to think of what to say before it was recorded. It was done on the fly. I am sure anyone could hav done better had they known they were going to be giving an acceptance speech.

LOL

Come on Roogs... you know that's a bad excuse. LOL

A player of his stature should know how to do a proper thank you. It's not like it's his first award.

It ended up just coming off as self-serving.

Contrast that to the one that Robbo did the previous year. Night and day.

Phil
02-05-2010, 12:44 PM
Roogs it's not about appreciating him. It's about what looks like to be whining from his part, whether it is warranted or unwarranted.

When will athletes ever learn that it's not good PR to bitch about money... unless you're making the league minimum of $19,000 and in some cases some people still don't want to hear about it.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was uncomfortable when we saw the DeRo acceptance speech when he got the RPB Man of the Year. You're getting award and your pitching your websites and business ventures to the point of ad nauseam?

I think he needs new PR people.

Just to be clear, we let him do that and encouraged it. That group does a lot of good things for the community and there is no problem with him giving it a little bit of promo. His whole family is involved and commited to seeing that work.

Toronto Ruffrider
02-05-2010, 12:48 PM
I have always been a fan of DeRo; his attacking flair is something we are not accustomed to seeing from players in this country. On the other hand, DeRo has always been a selfish player. This fact has been evident on numerous occasions in which he tried to create scoring chances from solo efforts. These dual traits are not very surprising when one considers that DeRo is a type-A player. DeRo can't help but standout on this team, or any other MLS team.

What DeRo does with his type-A personality is entirely up to him. Regardless of Mo dicking him around, the salary structure on TFC isn't likely to drastically change - i.e. DeRo isn't going to be paid JDG dollars. DeRo can either be a selfish jackass and a dressing room cancer, or he can suck it up and be an outspoken leader of TFC, on and off the pitch. The way I look at it, the pendulum can swing either way for DeRo - he can bring the whole team together or he can tear it all apart.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 12:54 PM
Isn't his on-pitch performance the only thing that should matter?

Off-field attitude? Is he pulling a Tiger and screwing whores? Is he running people down in his car drunk? Is he being arrested for internet child-porn?

No...he's mentioned his contract situation. Something all athletes do when there are disagreements. This is nothing new but we're acting like he is breaking laws. It's pretty ridiculous.

As for San Jose and Houston, actually it's been pretty consistent on his part, like it or not. And yet, the fans there loved him nonetheless.

No... but the reaction is also par for the course whenever some other athlete bitches about his contract. Take you pick among any other hockey, baseball, basketball player etc. For a more recent example look at Ilya Kovalchuk.

The great ones never bitched publicly about their contracts and that's part of the reason or allure of why there are considered great.

The ones who do never really capture the public's imagination.

The bitching falls into the greater context of the team. I mean why isn't he bitching about the young guys on the team making a pittance? Hell, some of the great ones even take a PAY CUT if they feel if it will help the team.

Not saying he should take a pay cut but we talk about things that can divide a dressing room (like the John Terry situation)... these is something that definitely does not help the dressing room.

If DeRo has an issue with Mo... he should take that up personally with Mo instead of letting something linger like a bad stench.

Whether or not Mo lied, and I'm not defending Mo's alleged actions, why did this become an issue in the first place? Why did it become public? Why couldn't it have been kept behind closed doors?

We're not trying to railroad a guy but by the same token, but fuck me, before JDG came around, he was the highest paid player on TFC and in the top 10 in the MLS. So JDG comes in and makes more money than him, he does have a better pedigree than DeRo. Is DeRo that self-serving that he can't handle being the #2 highest paid player on the team and still in the top 10 in the MLS?

The more I think about it the more upset about it. Yeah, MO is a fuck nut but can't we have a season without drama? In this case, this wasn't an issue until DeRo brought it up and could kibosh a season that has some potential... even though HE SIGNED A CONTRACT....

Whoop
02-05-2010, 12:55 PM
Just to be clear, we let him do that and encouraged it. That group does a lot of good things for the community and there is no problem with him giving it a little bit of promo. His whole family is involved and commited to seeing that work.

I understand. All the props to him.

I mean give a shout out. It was fine. But when he mentioned it 3-4, 5 times, I remember the uneasy laughs.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 12:57 PM
I have always been a fan of DeRo; his attacking flair is something we are not accustomed to seeing from players in this country. On the other hand, DeRo has always been a selfish player. This fact has been evident on numerous occasions in which he tried to create scoring chances from solo efforts. These dual traits are not very surprising when one considers that DeRo is a type-A player. DeRo can't help but standout on this team, or any other MLS team.

What DeRo does with his type-A personality is entirely up to him. Regardless of Mo dicking him around, the salary structure on TFC isn't likely to drastically change - i.e. DeRo isn't going to be paid JDG dollars. DeRo can either be a selfish jackass and a dressing room cancer, or he can suck it up and be an outspoken leader of TFC, on and off the pitch. The way I look at it, the pendulum can swing either way for DeRo - he can bring the whole team together or he can tear it all apart.

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

There is a leadership void on TFC right now and I just hope DeRo does the right thing for the TEAM.

Oldtimer
02-05-2010, 12:57 PM
MoJo logic:

1. Mo promised DeRo DP status, because he had no clue that JDG would be available

or

2. Mo figured that with the new CBA, he'd either get another DP slot or a cap increase to pay DeRo DP money

or

3. Mo just lost his mind

there is one other:

4. Mo promised DeRo DP and Garber said "no, DP is only for stars from overseas." Mo says to DeRo "that's the way the cookie crumbles" (however you say that in Scottish) and gives him the max non-DP. Mo looks like an idiot because he's supposed to be the expert on the league.

DeRo's been complaining about his salary for years, doesn't matter what club. Fact, no American club is going to pay him what TFC will, his only other option is Vancouver next year. Mr. Cheese in Montreal will be one of the more frugal MLS owner/operators and certainly won't be springing the cash.

TFC Tifoso
02-05-2010, 12:59 PM
there is one other:

4. Mo promised DeRo DP and Garber said "no, DP is only for stars from overseas." Mo says to DeRo "that's the way the cookie crumbles" (however you say that in Scottish) and gives him the max non-DP. Mo looks like an idiot because he's supposed to be the expert on the league.

DeRo's been complaining about his salary for years, doesn't matter what club.

and what's JDG?.....

Phil
02-05-2010, 01:04 PM
and what's JDG?.....

Okay, point taken. Modify the wording to be something like - we dont promote existing players in the MLS to be DP's unless grandfathered (Donavan). Its been speculated that JDG was a tough DP sell because he was Canadian, its his European experince that made it a lot easier to do the deal.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 01:04 PM
JDG, while Canadian, did come from Spain.

I think that's what he means.

DeRo can always try his luck in Europe, no?

Oldtimer
02-05-2010, 01:07 PM
JDG, while Canadian, did come from Spain.



Exactly.

boban
02-05-2010, 01:13 PM
Isn't his on-pitch performance the only thing that should matter?

Off-field attitude? Is he pulling a Tiger and screwing whores? Is he running people down in his car drunk? Is he being arrested for internet child-porn?

No...he's mentioned his contract situation. Something all athletes do when there are disagreements. This is nothing new but we're acting like he is breaking laws. It's pretty ridiculous.

As for San Jose and Houston, actually it's been pretty consistent on his part, like it or not. And yet, the fans there loved him nonetheless.
Guy has been part of this team for 12 months and 5 times already he is bitching something significant about the team, 3 times about his salary.
Enough already. Shut up Dero!!
It's not all about on field performance. Everyoneone knows that. You know that Roogsy! Don't make me think less of you if you don't.

Pigfynn
02-05-2010, 01:14 PM
^^As I recall there were rumblings that Don Garber really didn't feel that JDG was worth the DP tag either. He was convinced to allow it.


Whoops...ya what he said :)

Roogsy
02-05-2010, 01:16 PM
LOL

Come on Roogs... you know that's a bad excuse. LOL

A player of his stature should know how to do a proper thank you. It's not like it's his first award.

It ended up just coming off as self-serving.

Contrast that to the one that Robbo did the previous year. Night and day.

I don't have much I can say about that...Robbo's acceptance was class.

Roogsy
02-05-2010, 01:16 PM
Guy has been part of this team for 12 months and 5 times already he is bitching something significant about the team, 3 times about his salary.
Enough already. Shut up Dero!!
It's not all about on field performance. Everyoneone knows that. You know that Roogsy! Don't make me think less of you if you don't.


Is that even possible? :lol:

boban
02-05-2010, 01:21 PM
Is that even possible? :lol:
Don't doubt yourself.
Of course it is. ;)

Toronto Ruffrider
02-05-2010, 01:24 PM
and what's JDG?.....

Deportivo's player of the year for 2008.

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 01:29 PM
there is one other:

4. Mo promised DeRo DP and Garber said "no, DP is only for stars from overseas." Mo says to DeRo "that's the way the cookie crumbles" (however you say that in Scottish) and gives him the max non-DP. Mo looks like an idiot because he's supposed to be the expert on the league.




Or, DeRo said, "I want to be the DP," and Mo said, "It's unlikely MLSE or the league will agree to that, but I'll ask them."

What people read into this is interesting, it says a lot about how we feel about our "team."

And, for me, yes it's just about on field performance - nothing else. I only look to athletes for on field performance.

So, if anyone on this team wanted a raise, the time to ask for it was right after the last game in NY last year. After the last on field performance.

boban
02-05-2010, 01:31 PM
So, if anyone on this team wanted a raise, the time to ask for it was right after the last game in NY last year. After the last on field performance.
So nobody gets it csz that was a total disgusting display on everyone's part.

TFC Tifoso
02-05-2010, 01:31 PM
Okay, point taken. Modify the wording to be something like - we dont promote existing players in the MLS to be DP's unless grandfathered (Donavan). Its been speculated that JDG was a tough DP sell because he was Canadian, its his European experince that made it a lot easier to do the deal.


JDG, while Canadian, did come from Spain.

I think that's what he means.

DeRo can always try his luck in Europe, no?


Exactly.

ok, just wanted clarification....although you could say that JDG was never a "star" in Europe, though he did have a good season with DlC...but that's splitting hairs, I'm just making the point here....

Also, the "grandfather rule" imo, was Garber's way of not fucking up the Beckham deal for MLS' marquee franchise.....I'm wondering which other team at the time would've been able to benefit from this "grandfather rule"?.....was it only LA?....

Phil
02-05-2010, 01:39 PM
ok, just wanted clarification....although you could say that JDG was never a "star" in Europe, though he did have a good season with DlC...but that's splitting hairs, I'm just making the point here....

Also, the "grandfather rule" imo, was Garber's way of not fucking up the Beckham deal for MLS' marquee franchise.....I'm wondering which other team at the time would've been able to benefit from this "grandfather rule"?.....was it only LA?....

I think it was only LA. The league centers around them for obvious reasons.

JonO
02-05-2010, 01:40 PM
^ My memory is muddy as usual, but I think Ruiz was also grandfathered and I believe he was at Dallas at the time...

Pigfynn
02-05-2010, 01:42 PM
Read this interview with Preki and count how many times he says hard work.
Holy shit our boys are in for it this year. Hope there all bright eyed and bushy tailed each day at training or it's gonna rain shit!

http://www.mlsnet.com//news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20100205&content_id=8027240&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 01:49 PM
I can't believe that Mo screwed DeRo over, and people are turning on DeRo. I can't imagine any other situation where an employer makes promises to an employee then fails to deliver on its promises and the employee is blamed and called a whiner.

For the people who are saying that its DeRo's fault, that he should have got Mo's promises put into contract - he couldn't. He was under contract with Houston at the time.

This is what happened, confirmed by a number of sources including people connected to the team, people connected to the player and respected members of the media:

1. Mo approached DeRo about comming to Toronto.

2. DeRo said "I'd like to at some point, but there's a bunch of reasons why I can't right now", not the least of which was selling a valuable house in America in the middle of housing crisis.

3. Mo said "What if we give you DP money? That will cover your loses, making up for differences in tax rates etc."

4. DeRo approached Houston and requested a trade to Toronto.

5. It became public knowledge that Toronto and Houston had worked out a trade for DeRo. Everyone was excited.

6. Mo says "Oh, BTW - we can't actually offer you DP money. Sorry the league said 'no'"

At that point, what is DeRo supposed to do? He can't go back and say "On second thought, I don't want to leave Houston after all" and he's essentially forced to sign whatever contract that TFC offer him. He ends up with a good contract but not the one he was promised. Financially, he breaks even at best - not exactly a great reason to go from a 1st place team to a last place team.

If DeRo did anything wrong it was in assuming that Mo was honourable and/or smart enough to not make promises that he couldn't deliver on.

J .
02-05-2010, 01:52 PM
Id like DeRo for Kenny Cooper :D

TFC Tifoso
02-05-2010, 01:54 PM
I think it was only LA. The league centers around them for obvious reasons.

I get that....at the same time it is hard to draw comparisons from that rule to the DeRo/JDG situation, because under the circumstances, the "grandfather rule" was basically the "LA gets 2 DPs and if you don't like it you can go fuck yourself rule" :D....I just think it had less to do with not promoting NA players as DPs and more to do with finding out any way to get Becks to LA.

Only the parties involved will know what was said/promised to DeRo during negotiations, and if Mo was not honest with DeRo, a guy who he was making at the time to be the star player, who knows how many more times he's been a snake (a few I would presume).....

TFC Tifoso
02-05-2010, 01:57 PM
If DeRo did anything wrong it was in assuming that Mo was honourable and/or smart enough to not make promises that he couldn't deliver on.

and bingo was his name-o.....

JonO
02-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Cretan: I hate chiming in on this, because I sound like an ass, but even if every word of what you say is true, what is DeRo gonna do about it? I highly doubt any other team values him as much as we do. So he is stuck. Screwed. Some said it best ealier- he has two choices: 1) bitch about it; or 2) suck it up and be a true team leader

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 02:02 PM
For the people who are saying that its DeRo's fault, that he should have got Mo's promises put into contract - he couldn't. He was under contract with Houston at the time.




Is anyone saying what happened was DeRo's fault? What people are saying is that the way he's handling it now, so much public complaining about his contract, may not be the right thing to do.

And as for being under contract with Houston, don't you remember the two weeks after the trade when people on here were going nuts because the contact still wasn't signed and DeRo and Mo were both saying they "hoped" it could get worked out?

Anything could have been put into that contract at that point in time. MLSE handle athlete contracts in three sports every day. Who is DeRo's agent?

Oldtimer
02-05-2010, 02:11 PM
They favour LA, but the league did throw TFC a bone. Leaving Stefan Frei as GA is like giving us free extra cap space. They probably realize that MLS' "best fans" won't put up with being out of the playoffs forever.

Rudi
02-05-2010, 02:15 PM
I can't believe that Mo screwed DeRo over, and people are turning on DeRo. I can't imagine any other situation where an employer makes promises to an employee then fails to deliver on its promises and the employee is blamed and called a whiner.

For the people who are saying that its DeRo's fault, that he should have got Mo's promises put into contract - he couldn't. He was under contract with Houston at the time.

This is what happened, confirmed by a number of sources including people connected to the team, people connected to the player and respected members of the media:

1. Mo approached DeRo about comming to Toronto.

2. DeRo said "I'd like to at some point, but there's a bunch of reasons why I can't right now", not the least of which was selling a valuable house in America in the middle of housing crisis.

3. Mo said "What if we give you DP money? That will cover your loses, making up for differences in tax rates etc."

4. DeRo approached Houston and requested a trade to Toronto.

5. It became public knowledge that Toronto and Houston had worked out a trade for DeRo. Everyone was excited.

6. Mo says "Oh, BTW - we can't actually offer you DP money. Sorry the league said 'no'"

At that point, what is DeRo supposed to do? He can't go back and say "On second thought, I don't want to leave Houston after all" and he's essentially forced to sign whatever contract that TFC offer him. He ends up with a good contract but not the one he was promised. Financially, he breaks even at best - not exactly a great reason to go from a 1st place team to a last place team.

If DeRo did anything wrong it was in assuming that Mo was honourable and/or smart enough to not make promises that he couldn't deliver on.
So Mo tampered with an under-contract player and got away with it?

Interesting.

Oldtimer
02-05-2010, 02:16 PM
So Mo tampered with an under-contract player and got away with it?

Interesting.

It's not tampering if the club lets you talk to the player.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 02:17 PM
Cretan: I hate chiming in on this, because I sound like an ass, but even if every word of what you say is true, what is DeRo gonna do about it? I highly doubt any other team values him as much as we do. So he is stuck. Screwed. Some said it best ealier- he has two choices: 1) bitch about it; or 2) suck it up and be a true team leader

If it were you, would you just accept the fact that you're "screwed" and put a happy face on, or would you have some lingering issues with the fact that you got screwed over? More over, if you'd lost respect for your employer and felt like you couldn't trust them and didn't think that they were honourable people is "sucking it up and being a true team leader" even a realistic option? Can we really expect him to run through a brick wall for people who he feels betrayed by?

Whoop
02-05-2010, 02:17 PM
Wait a minute... isn't it tampering if you are discussing contracts/trades with players already under contract, unless Houston gave teams permission to talk to DeRo?

Cretan... then he shouldn't have done this based on a promise.



4. DeRo approached Houston and requested a trade to Toronto.


This smells like a bad egg on everyone's part.

I'm not turning on DeRo. I just want him to stop whining about it before it causes any further problems.

Either a) request a trade out of Toronto if you're not happy with your contract or b) honour the contract.

When the contract is done and you feel like you still can play and TFC wants to sign you, then you say "fuck you".

We shouldn't be talking about contracts/money, we should be talking about other things.

That's the part that I'm pissed at.

Rudi
02-05-2010, 02:20 PM
It's not tampering if the club lets you talk to the player.
But if the timeline that CretanBull laid out is correct, DeRo only asked Houston for a trade after talking to Mo.

Plus Houston had just signed DeRo to a four year deal a year prior to this conversation happening, so unless there were some off-field issues we don't know about, Houston was presumably happy with DeRo and hoping to keep him for the full term that they agreed to.

Something just doesn't add up here.

(On the grandfathering topic, Donovan and Ruiz were both grandfathered as about max salary players, along with Eddie Johnson and Freddy Adu).

Whoop
02-05-2010, 02:21 PM
So Mo tampered with an under-contract player and got away with it?

Interesting.

Haha.

You beat me to it.

The order of those steps that C_B laid out don't seem right.

I could see it working if the first step in all that, DeRo asked Houston if they could trade him to Toronto. That would get the ball rolling on any negotiations.

But from my understanding a) wasn't DeRo already under contract to Houston? and b) didn't Toronto "re-work" the contract in order to pay him as much as they could, non-DP wise?

That's I how I remembered it.

Phil
02-05-2010, 02:24 PM
But if the timeline that CretanBull laid out is correct, DeRo only asked Houston for a trade after talking to Mo.

Plus Houston had just signed DeRo to a four year deal a year prior to this conversation happening, so unless there were some off-field issues we don't know about, Houston was presumably happy with DeRo and hoping to keep him for the full term that they agreed to.

Something just doesn't add up here.

(On the grandfathering topic, Donovan and Ruiz were both grandfathered as about max salary players, along with Eddie Johnson and Freddy Adu).


Remember there was that whole negotiation period before the season started last year? December we traded for Dero but he didn't sign until a week before camp (memory might be going). To me, that is when promises were pushed and or made.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 02:29 PM
But if the timeline that CretanBull laid out is correct, DeRo only asked Houston for a trade after talking to Mo.

Plus Houston had just signed DeRo to a four year deal a year prior to this conversation happening, so unless there were some off-field issues we don't know about, Houston was presumably happy with DeRo and hoping to keep him for the full term that they agreed to.

Something just doesn't add up here.

(On the grandfathering topic, Donovan and Ruiz were both grandfathered as about max salary players, along with Eddie Johnson and Freddy Adu).

That's how I remembered it. DeRo already had a contract. TFC added more to it.

Doing a quick search online, DeRo signed an extension with Houston in the summer of 2007, that would put him under contract to Houston through to the 2010 season.

Looking at the MLS players website, his guaranteed salary with Houston in 2008 was $325,000.

After the trade, Toronto signs DeRo to a new 4 year deal with his guaranteed salary at $425,000.

Could TFC offer him more than $425,000/year?

Rudi
02-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Remember there was that whole negotiation period before the season started last year? December we traded for Dero but he didn't sign until a week before camp (memory might be going). To me, that is when promises were pushed and or made.
He was traded to us, but it wasn't announced as Toronto was negotiating with him, correect.

DeRo was entering year two of a four year deal at that point, so DeRo wasn't required to "sign" anything. He was already a TFC player. Perhaps at that point, Mo made the "promise" to make him a DP, but as CretanBull states, the league kiboshed it.

So what I can deduce from this is that DeRo demanded a trade from Houston before ever having talked to Mo Johnston about a possible renegotiation of his contract. The league would not have allowed it any other way, given how hard they came down on Seattle for talking to Columbus' coach about a month prior (to the tune of a $300,000 allocation being sent from Seattle to Columbus).

Now that I think back to it, there is no way Houston allows DeRo to talk to Toronto without working out a really great compensation package in case a deal goes through. Can anybody here tell me with a straight face that Julius James was equal compensation for Dwayne De Rosario?

In other words, I don't think the DP conversation between DeRo and Mo took place while DeRo was with Houston. It's just not possible.

Now, maybe Mo did promise to make him a DP after Houston was essentially forced into trading him away for a sack of potatoes (Julius James). That's (more) egg on Mo's face, but it's also a really fucking stupid gamble on DeRo's, and his agent's, part.

ag futbol
02-05-2010, 02:32 PM
How much of an issue is the salary cap? And will it mean Carl Robinson, Dwayne De Rosario and Adrian Serioux -- the core of the team -- might not return? "We're still thinking. We'll see where it goes. I don't know. I can't tell you."
Short of getting something serious and 100% proven to replace a Dero, this team has would have zero chance of making the playoffs in his absence.

Him leaving would be a huge step backward. And shipping out another player we just got last year would just show this team is managed completely wrong.

Rudi
02-05-2010, 02:34 PM
That's how I remembered it. DeRo already had a contract. TFC added more to it.

Doing a quick search online, DeRo signed an extension with Houston in the summer of 2007, that would put him under contract to Houston through to the 2010 season.

Looking at the MLS players website, his guaranteed salary with Houston in 2008 was $325,000.

After the trade, Toronto signs DeRo to a new 4 year deal with his guaranteed salary at $425,000.

Could TFC offer him more than $425,000/year?
From what I've heard, DeRo is getting paid closer to $600,000 per year, with only $425,000 (the max non DP salary) hitting TFC's salary cap. As someone wrote above, it's a similar deal to what Schelotto was getting prior to last year when Columbus ran out of allocation dollars to artificially lower his cap hit.

I don't know this for sure, but the sources who told me this at the time were pretty solid.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 02:35 PM
Is anyone saying what happened was DeRo's fault? What people are saying is that the way he's handling it now, so much public complaining about his contract, may not be the right thing to do.

I think the general tone of the thread has cast a negative light on DeRo. I'm not saying that DeRo is handling the situation in the best possible way, I'm just saying that I understand how he feels. A lot of people are focusing on "DeRo the whiner" without knowing the circumstances.



And as for being under contract with Houston, don't you remember the two weeks after the trade when people on here were going nuts because the contact still wasn't signed and DeRo and Mo were both saying they "hoped" it could get worked out?

Anything could have been put into that contract at that point in time. MLSE handle athlete contracts in three sports every day. Who is DeRo's agent?


The reason why it took so long to get a contract signed was precisely because this was when DeRo was told that he wouldn't be getting what he had been promised. He'd already gone public with his trade request, the deal between Toronto and Houston had been agreed upon - now he was being told that he wasn't going to get the money that he was told he was going to get...money that wasn't just about greed, but was needed to cover real world losses in terms of tax rates and realestate crisises.

Ultimately no one really knows DeRo's personal finances, but I was told by someone who I think has a pretty decent insight into the situation that "DeRo left Houston earlier than he wanted to because of the money offered to him, and in the end he broke even at best".

Whoop
02-05-2010, 02:36 PM
My bad... his salary is listed at $357,000, which put him 13th on the 2009 salary list in the MLS. Which put him 6th among the non-DPs.

Even at his old salary, $325,000, he would still be 13th.

The highest non-DP salary last year was Joseph at $450,000 so DeRo is in line with the rest of the top MLS guys, save the DPs.

So who should be mad at?

1) Mo - promised him DP money though the league wouldn't let him

or

2) His agent - for not knowing the league wouldn't give him DP money

Did anyone from TFC go to the league and say "hey, he's been in the league for 10+ years, can't we make him a DP?"

And really, short of making him a DP, which it appears they cannot, how much more money can TFC give him?

Rudi
02-05-2010, 02:40 PM
My bad... his salary is listed at $357,000, which put him 13th on the 2009 salary list in the MLS. Which put him 6th among the non-DPs.

Even at his old salary, $325,000, he would still be 13th.

The highest non-DP salary last year was Joseph at $450,000 so DeRo is in line with the rest of the top MLS guys, save the DPs.

So who should be mad at?

1) Mo - promised him DP money though the league wouldn't let him

or

2) His agent - for not knowing the league wouldn't give him DP money

Did anyone from TFC go to the league and say "hey, he's been in the league for 10+ years, can't we make him a DP?"

And really, short of making him a DP, which it appears they cannot, how much more money can TFC give him?
Vic, see my post above. The $357,000 number was the original salary figure that was assigned to DeRo by the Player's Union in their first "leak" of the '09 season, in later leaks they list him at $425,000 guaranteed compensation, and it's implied that he is actually making another $175,000 above that number in real world dollars.

JDG is listed as $900,000 or so, but I'd imagine that number goes up this year as allocation dollars run out.

sully
02-05-2010, 02:42 PM
MoJo logic:

3. Mo just lost his mind

he mind was lost years ago...when he joined Rangers...:rolleyes5:

Whoop
02-05-2010, 02:45 PM
Rudi, I understand.

So does he have a "personal services" contract for the $175,000?

Again, and I hate coming across as a MLSE sympathizer, but what more can they offer, keeping in lines with the MLS salary structure?

I mean, even if Mo says, fine, we'll give you more money, can they?

Shouldn't DeRo be taking issue with the league instead?

Does he want De Guzman to make less than him?

I don't get it.

Again, short of making him a DP, which it appears they can't do, what more can they do?

Are "personal service" contracts even allowed?

Rudi
02-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Rudi, I understand.

So does he have a "personal services" contract for the $175,000?

Again, and I hate coming across as a MLSE sympathizer, but what more can they offer, keeping in lines with the MLS salary structure?

I mean, even if Mo says, fine, we'll give you more money, can they?

Shouldn't DeRo be taking issue with the league instead?

Does he want De Guzman to make less than him?

I don't get it.

Again, short of making him a DP, which it appears they can't do, what more can they do?

Are "personal service" contracts even allowed?
Toronto had hoarded a shit load of allocation dollars from their expansion year, plus the major allocations they get from the league for missing the playoffs (the aptly-named "you suck allocation"). Plus Mo traded for allocation in some of the many deals he made in the first two seasons.

DeRo is getting paid above max salary from that allocation pool (as was Robinson in years one and two). JDG is getting paid from that pool as well, but I believe that was only for this past season. I expect to see his "official" salary number to increase as MLSE takes on more of his wages this season.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 02:55 PM
But if the timeline that CretanBull laid out is correct, DeRo only asked Houston for a trade after talking to Mo.

If you don't accept that time line and don't believe any talks took place between DeRo and Mo while he was under contract with Houston, then you believe that DeRo:

1. Out of the blue decided that he wanted to play for Toronto, and that Toronto would want/need him

2. Wanted to play for TFC so badly that he didn't care about selling his house for a loss in a depressed market or about higher tax rates in Canada.

3. After the trade was completed, he showed up here and said "Oh, I know that I'm under contract for the next few years but I'm not actually going to play here under the contract that I signed with Houston, we're going to negociate a new deal" and not only did TFC go along with this, they went on step further and said "hey, we'll one up you and give you DP money!".


It's absolutely absurd to think that certain things weren't discussed before a deal took place.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 02:58 PM
Or
4. Houston wanted to dump his salary.

Were they many other teams that could take on his salary?

Rudi
02-05-2010, 03:01 PM
If you don't accept that time line and don't believe any talks took place between DeRo and Mo while he was under contract with Houston, then you believe that DeRo:

1. Out of the blue decided that he wanted to play for Toronto, and that Toronto would want/need him

2. Wanted to play for TFC so badly that he didn't care about selling his house for a loss in a depressed market or about higher tax rates in Canada.

3. After the trade was completed, he showed up here and said "Oh, I know that I'm under contract for the next few years but I'm not actually going to play here under the contract that I signed with Houston, we're going to negociate a new deal" and not only did TFC go along with this, they went on step further and said "hey, we'll one up you and give you DP money!".


It's absolutely absurd to think that certain things weren't discussed before a deal took place.
It's also absolutely absurd to think that Houston would allow such discussion to take place, while feebly accepting Julius James in return for their franchise player.

If Houston allowed DeRo to talk to Toronto as you suggest, they also would have negotiated with Toronto a fair deal for themselves in case DeRo left. That doesn't seem to be the case, does it?

Again, I'm not doubting you or your sources, I'm just saying this doesn't add up. Why would Houston allow themselves to be taken to the cleaners like that? This isn't exactly a team that is known for such abject incompetence.

To me, something other than on-field issues forced Houston's hand, thus they accepted anything that Mo threw at them in return for the best player that franchise has ever had. The facts support this.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:02 PM
Wasn't it a salary dump situation?

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:04 PM
And I still don't understand why TFC was obligated to renegotiate a contract and why DeRo was obligated to sign it when a contact already existed?

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 03:05 PM
Or
4. Houston wanted to dump his salary.

Were they many other teams that could take on his salary?

Not the case - they had just renegociated his contract. DeRo requested a trade to Toronto only and Kinnear says he agreed to accommodate him out of respect for his service etc. If they wanted to dump his salary there would have been more than a few teams willing to take him and Houston would have got more in return for him.

ag futbol
02-05-2010, 03:07 PM
Wasn't it a salary dump situation?
From Houston's POV it looked that way.

But is just opens up more questions.
- Was Dero willing to accept a trade to any team or just TFC?
- Did they have a solid free-agent or transfer target come in they needed cap space for? (did they try to lock down holden knowing his was out of contract next year, only to have him tell them to stuff it for earning 35k for multiple seasons?)

Without a complete set of information regarding contract negotiations it's hard to understand where Houston is coming from. But if we are trading Dero, i have a very difficult time seeing us being better than last year.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:09 PM
http://blogs.chron.com/soccer/archives/2008/12/dynamo_send_de.html

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:11 PM
Sounds like he wasn't happy in Houston before either.

http://blogs.chron.com/soccer/archives/2009/01/de_rosario_offi.html

Broadview
02-05-2010, 03:15 PM
I remember watching Dero on "The Grill Room" when he actually talked about his contract. He obviously didn't get into great detail but he did say that during negotiations TFC "threw age in there" implying that he was getting up there in years and wouldn't give him what he asking for during negotiations.

Then there was something said along the lines of "let's see what you can still do...", to which Wheeler asked if that meant that his contract could be renegotiated. Dero said, and I remember this clearly "No, but technically yes".

I'm almost sure he meant that no, there is no out or renegotiation clause written into the contract that he signed, but he was likely told that if he proved that he wasn't slowing down (he didn't exactly have a 2008 season that lived up to his past standards) then renegotiation could happen.

If he wanted to complain clearly he should have answered the question "Technically no, but yes". Not the other way around. But you know the way he talks, he speaks quickly like he's nervous, rambles a bit, throws in a few cliches...basically the same way I did when I had to do a presentation in school. I'm not knocking him, he's paid to play soccer, not talk, and he's really good at it.

So here we are in 2010. Dero had a spectacular 2009 leading the team in goals, putting the team on his back in Montreal and in general proving he wasn't old. I bet that he thinks he proved age wasn't the issue TFC said it was and now he wants his due.

Could this also explain his perceived "selfish" play in 2009? I barely ever saw him play before he came here to be honest. I have heard rumblings on here that he was always like that, so I dunno.

But maybe that's why he's not talking now when he was pretty happy to talk to Wheeler about it last season.

Maybe by not talking about how pissed he is he's trying not to be a distraction to the team. You know, "If you don't have anything nice to say...". We never did hear Dichio complain a peep last season when I'm sure he was upset. We're not hearing Robbo complain now. Perhaps Dero is simply following their example and trying not to rock the boat, even though he is upset.

Anyway, I hope this all gets sorted. A bunch of wins at the start of the season will make everyone feel a lot better about things :)

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:19 PM
Amen, Broadview.

The last sentence summed it up nicely.

I'm going to enjoy the rest of my Friday.

Broadview
02-05-2010, 03:20 PM
From Houston's POV it looked that way.

But is just opens up more questions.
- Was Dero willing to accept a trade to any team or just TFC?
- Did they have a solid free-agent or transfer target come in they needed cap space for? (did they try to lock down holden knowing his was out of contract next year, only to have him tell them to stuff it for earning 35k for multiple seasons?)

Without a complete set of information regarding contract negotiations it's hard to understand where Houston is coming from. But if we are trading Dero, i have a very difficult time seeing us being better than last year.

Dero said Toronto only. Kind of ties Houston's hands, hence Julius James.

Holden played great in Dero's absences, and is a hometown boy.

They signed that Mexican kid as a DP:Landin

Rudi
02-05-2010, 03:23 PM
Sounds like he wasn't happy in Houston before either.

http://blogs.chron.com/soccer/archives/2009/01/de_rosario_offi.html
This blog entry shines a lot of light on the situation.

Thanks for digging that up.

FluSH
02-05-2010, 03:23 PM
I can't believe that Mo screwed DeRo over, and people are turning on DeRo. I can't imagine any other situation where an employer makes promises to an employee then fails to deliver on its promises and the employee is blamed and called a whiner.

For the people who are saying that its DeRo's fault, that he should have got Mo's promises put into contract - he couldn't. He was under contract with Houston at the time.

This is what happened, confirmed by a number of sources including people connected to the team, people connected to the player and respected members of the media:

1. Mo approached DeRo about comming to Toronto.

2. DeRo said "I'd like to at some point, but there's a bunch of reasons why I can't right now", not the least of which was selling a valuable house in America in the middle of housing crisis.

3. Mo said "What if we give you DP money? That will cover your loses, making up for differences in tax rates etc."

4. DeRo approached Houston and requested a trade to Toronto.

5. It became public knowledge that Toronto and Houston had worked out a trade for DeRo. Everyone was excited.

6. Mo says "Oh, BTW - we can't actually offer you DP money. Sorry the league said 'no'"

At that point, what is DeRo supposed to do? He can't go back and say "On second thought, I don't want to leave Houston after all" and he's essentially forced to sign whatever contract that TFC offer him. He ends up with a good contract but not the one he was promised. Financially, he breaks even at best - not exactly a great reason to go from a 1st place team to a last place team.

If DeRo did anything wrong it was in assuming that Mo was honourable and/or smart enough to not make promises that he couldn't deliver on.


The bottom line is... by exposing this out in the open... you are bringing in the supporters into a business dispute... between player and management...

Where is the focus? The team? or the player's bottom line pockets... this is leaving a sour taste in my mouth... you shouldn't bring this out in the open.... get a Sports Lawyer and deal with this shit behind closed doors... you are not helping your team or your cause with supporters...

SHit worst case scenario... you don't agree... Walk away like Guevara did with Chivas... just say Fuck it. I would have more respect for you that way then me being used to get a player his raise... whether he deserves it or not.

Whether he knows it or not... DeRo is forcing the supporters in this dispute... and I don't like it.

ag futbol
02-05-2010, 03:24 PM
^ But that was about 6 months after the fact. I don't think Landin is what they had in mind at the time.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:25 PM
Amen to that Flush. That's why I'm pissed.

Now I'm gone. :D

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:26 PM
^ But that was about 6 months after the fact. I don't think Landin is what they had in mind at the time.

Actually they were looking at Landin in December '08. His name is all over the blog when I was digging up the info on DeRo.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 03:30 PM
And I still don't understand why TFC was obligated to renegotiate a contract and why DeRo was obligated to sign it when a contact already existed?

That obligation only exists if you accept the time line that I laid out. If he was just dealt here without having first spoken to Mo then he'd have no reason to expect contract negociations to take place, nor would TFC entertain the thought of renegociating a new contract.

From one of the links that you posted:

"Word from Toronto is De Rosario felt he was misled by Toronto — and maybe even the Dynamo — about the trade. This much the Toronto media gathered snooping around town.

All signs point to De Rosario asking to be traded to Toronto under the impression he would go home to a big payday and a designated player roster spot."

Are we to believe that DeRo is delusional and dreamt up all on his own that if he demanded a trade to Toronto that he get DP money, or is the more logical explaination that he had some contact with Mo before being traded?

If it wasn't promised to him prior to his trade, why would he - and TFC for that matter - be involved in contract talks after the trade? If the expectation was the he was going to play out his contract (which would be the case with any other player that a team traded for), why were they even negociating?

People can accept or reject what I've said, but logic points to the fact that I'm right...and when I say that "I'm right" I don't mean to take credit for anything, I'm just passing a long what I've heard from a number of different people who are a lot closer to the situation than any of us are.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:32 PM
Goes back to the my other point.

TFC promises him DP money, league says sorry you can't.
Well, not for DeRo, anyway.

Then, what?

Houston had no issue dumping him. They were ready to move on.

Rudi
02-05-2010, 03:33 PM
I still don't understand how TFC could get away with tampering with DeRo.

If we accept CretanBull's timeline, and the facts brought forth by the Houston Chronicle blog, DeRo spoke to Toronto before demanding a trade here.

Did the league simply look the other way to help us?

Broadview
02-05-2010, 03:36 PM
^ But that was about 6 months after the fact. I don't think Landin is what they had in mind at the time.

But clearing the cap space and receiving the allocation was necessary to have a DP. They knew they wanted one, they just didn't know who it would be yet. If Dero was still there Holden rots on the bench and a potential DP would be impossible.

And Dero asked to be traded to Toronto. He didn't think he wanted to be there anymore.

It's funny, the Dynamo fans who at first hated the trade probably don't mind it anymore and Dero probably wished it never happened.

Rudi
02-05-2010, 03:36 PM
Goes back to the my other point.

TFC promises him DP money, league says sorry you can't.
Well, not for DeRo, anyway.

Then, what?

Houston had no issue dumping him. They were ready to move on.
They had no issue dumping him because he was already proving to be a pain in their ass in regards to the money he was making.

I love DeRo, and have admired his play long before many here even knew who he was, but his desire to "get his" is a problem that pre-dates his time with TFC. I sincerely hope it doesn't contribute to the locker room problems we've all been hearing about.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 03:36 PM
The bottom line is... by exposing this out in the open... you are bringing in the supporters into a business dispute... between player and management...

Where is the focus? The team? or the player's bottom line pockets... this is leaving a sour taste in my mouth... you shouldn't bring this out in the open.... get a Sports Lawyer and deal with this shit behind closed doors... you are not helping your team or your cause with supporters...

SHit worst case scenario... you don't agree... Walk away like Guevara did with Chivas... just say Fuck it. I would have more respect for you that way then me being used to get a player his raise... whether he deserves it or not.

Whether he knows it or not... DeRo is forcing the supporters in this dispute... and I don't like it.


Has he really "gone public" with it though? Other an some vague comments to Wheeler he hasn't said a word to the public (even skipping media day to avoid questions on the topic), most of this has come out from reporters who realized that something was up (dating back to the time of the trade).

Rudi
02-05-2010, 03:39 PM
Has he really "gone public" with it though? Other an some vague comments to Wheeler he hasn't said a word to the public (even skipping media day to avoid questions on the topic), most of this has come out from reporters who realized that something was up (dating back to the time of the trade).
Didn't he just say in a recent interview that the money he was making as "alright" but not good enough.

Someone on this board posted that Everest College clip in jest as a response to it.

He's made his feelings about his pay known, even back in Houston.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 03:39 PM
I still don't understand how TFC could get away with tampering with DeRo.

If we accept CretanBull's timeline, and the facts brought forth by the Houston Chronicle blog, DeRo spoke to Toronto before demanding a trade here.

Did the league simply look the other way to help us?

I'm trying to get a hold of someone who I hope can offer a definite answer to the whether or not TFC tampered or were given permission to talk to DeRo...so far no luck, just voice mail.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:39 PM
They had no issue dumping him because he was already proving to be a pain in their ass in regards to the money he was making.

I love DeRo, and have admired his play long before many here even knew who he was, but his desire to "get his" is a problem that pre-dates his time with TFC. I sincerely hope it doesn't contribute to the locker room problems we've all been hearing about.

I remember hearing about him when he was in Germany, never saw him with the Lynx... LOL

Wonder what would have happened he had he managed to stick in Europe?

Broadview
02-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Did the league simply look the other way to help us?

Seems like it, doesn't it. But how could the league prove it though if nobody 'fesses up or feels wronged? Other than Dero of course, but he would be complicit in it.

The Crew felt aggrieved over the Schmid deal and raised a stink so there was an investigation.

TFC and Houston couldn't care less, obviously.

Whoop
02-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Geez... I was supposed to be leaving. But I'm enjoying this conversation.

ag futbol
02-05-2010, 03:45 PM
Actually they were looking at Landin in December '08. His name is all over the blog when I was digging up the info on DeRo.Well played sir, well played.

Yeah Dero has always been the "me first" type but shit when you deal with professional sports and guys on a certain level that's generally what it becomes. If you don't have an edge in a competitive business, you're toast. Dero definitely has that, but his cuts pretty deep. He yaps more than he should, but he pays the bills on the field so he can get away with it.

Dero never catching on in europe has a lot to do with where the game was at that point and time. Hard to convince a team in Europe that some MLS guy they have very little knowledge of is worth a shot. Although, it could be another London Donovan (big fish small pond syndrome). Modern scouting + technology, if there was an early 20's Dero in MLS today Europe would be onto it.

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 03:47 PM
"Word from Toronto is De Rosario felt he was misled by Toronto — and maybe even the Dynamo — about the trade. This much the Toronto media gathered snooping around town.

All signs point to De Rosario asking to be traded to Toronto under the impression he would go home to a big payday and a designated player roster spot."



So, Toronto and/or Houston.

The missing element here is still DeRo's agent. It's easy to imagine an agent saying, "I can get you DP money out of Toronto," knowing he couldn't get it out of anyone else. MLSE have overpaid fan favourites in other sports (I always think of Tie Domi, but there have been many) and certainly an agent would know that.

It really sounds like an agent took a gamble and it didn't work. Still, he got his client a big raise and a chance for some endorsement money and probably a few more extras.

Broadview
02-05-2010, 03:48 PM
Modern scouting + technology, if there was an early 20's Dero in MLS today Europe would be onto it.

Stuart Holden!

Broadview
02-05-2010, 03:53 PM
The fact is that right now Dero is not complaining publicly. He's not holding out of training camp or anything like that. I'm sure he'll honour his contract and the grass will make him happy.

This is only a story because Gareth Wheeler couldn't get a sound bite.

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 03:58 PM
So, Toronto and/or Houston.

The missing element here is still DeRo's agent. It's easy to imagine an agent saying, "I can get you DP money out of Toronto," knowing he couldn't get it out of anyone else. MLSE have overpaid fan favourites in other sports (I always think of Tie Domi, but there have been many) and certainly an agent would know that.

It really sounds like an agent took a gamble and it didn't work. Still, he got his client a big raise and a chance for some endorsement money and probably a few more extras.

That seems really, really, really unlikely to me...why would an agent make such a gamble? Beyond that, none of the facts or reports suggest an agent had anything to do with what happened.

Oldtimer
02-05-2010, 04:00 PM
The fact is that right now Dero is not complaining publicly. He's not holding out of training camp or anything like that. I'm sure he'll honour his contract and the grass will make him happy.

This is only a story because Gareth Wheeler couldn't get a sound bite.

... and Gareth Wheeler likes to create controversy. In his infamous article:


At a time Toronto FC fans should be celebrating the team's promising start to the season, they get a black eye for behaviour off the field.
A small group of so-called Toronto FC "fans" among the 2,000 travelling supporters embarrassed the city and the soccer club Saturday, getting into altercations with Columbus Crew fans and police.

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 04:13 PM
That seems really, really, really unlikely to me...why would an agent make such a gamble? Beyond that, none of the facts or reports suggest an agent had anything to do with what happened.


Yes, that's been my question all along, where was the agent? Why did he allow his client to be "promised" something without getting it into the contract? What is he getting paid for?

CretanBull
02-05-2010, 04:29 PM
Yes, that's been my question all along, where was the agent? Why did he allow his client to be "promised" something without getting it into the contract? What is he getting paid for?

There was no opportunity to have any promises written into a contract - the promisses were made while he was still in Houston, under contract. His contract was opened for renegociation after he was dealt here - too late to have the promises included in his contract...it was during the contract renegociations that he was told that they wouldn't be fullfilling their promises.


EDIT: or are you suggesting that while DeRo was still in Houston that his agent/lawyer should have drafted a contract stating that if their client agreed to take a trade request to Kinnear, that Toronto would agree to particular terms?

FluSH
02-05-2010, 04:37 PM
Has he really "gone public" with it though? Other an some vague comments to Wheeler he hasn't said a word to the public (even skipping media day to avoid questions on the topic), most of this has come out from reporters who realized that something was up (dating back to the time of the trade).

Then let it be clear from here onwards... that we don't want to hear more of this sh!t in public, and that he needs to get himself a sports lawyer and start focusing on the 2010 season.

It's that simple.

Beach_Red
02-05-2010, 04:54 PM
EDIT: or are you suggesting that while DeRo was still in Houston that his agent/lawyer should have drafted a contract stating that if their client agreed to take a trade request to Kinnear, that Toronto would agree to particular terms?


I'm saying that no professional agent should have accepted anything said before the trade. Then they negotiated the new contract after the trade, took weeks remember - got a big raise (looks like at least a hundred grand and some allocation money) and did pretty well. Accept it.

Maybe they could have gotten a guaratee of a renegotiation after a year written into the contract (all the contracts go through MLS and I have no idea if they would have accepted that) with specifics - you know, if he scores so many goals, or something lke that. Of course that's a big gamble because it's possible his pay could have gone down.

What we have here is really an issue of, "should the contract be renegotiated now?" As a fan of DeRo I say sure, give him more money. As a fan of the team, I say no. They didn't make the playoffs. All the players promised us they would and they got blown out in the final game.

That's the problem with a team sport. Sometimes individual goals mesh perfectly with the team's goals, but sometimes they don't. I don't have a problem with players being rewarded for personal goals - but I'd like to see an additional clause of, "If we make the playoffs."

ManUtd4ever
02-05-2010, 05:00 PM
Then let it be clear from here onwards... that we don't want to hear more of this sh!t in public, and that he needs to get himself a sports lawyer and start focusing on the 2010 season.

It's that simple.

QFT!

THA BUTCHA
02-05-2010, 05:40 PM
Hey Dero. If your reading this which Im sure you are. I just wanna let you know that the Guy in the JASON MASK in section 110 supports you and just like you also think MO Johnston is a twat.

Dont let the HATERS get you down. You deserve better.

People on hear have short memories. they seem to forget the MIRACLE IN MONTREAL..

Wooster_TFC
02-05-2010, 07:51 PM
Or, the conversation could have been something like this:

DeRo: I want DP money, and I feel my stats support my request.
Kinnear: True, they do, but the league won't let us give it to you because you don't draw in the fans or have the shirt sales yadda yadda yadda.
DeRo: Then trade me to a team that can.

Kinnear then trades him to Toronto. There's no reason why DeRo had to have talked to Mo in advance in this case, and Kinnear tells him "we found a team that can give you DP" and DeRo accepts that because he has no reason not to.

I'm still of the opinion that it's hard to see the league letting Mo get away with such tampering, especially with what Houston got back in the trade, especially since Houston appeared to want to keep him before the discussion happened.

I'm more convinced that Mo didn't promise him anything prior to the trade with the fact that the blog quotes "misled by Toronto - and maybe even the Dynamo". Why would he have been misled by the Dynamo if they had nothing to do with the conversation?

At the same time, I hope this all blows over quickly and we have a unified team moving forward.

Shway
02-05-2010, 10:51 PM
People on hear have short memories. they seem to forget the MIRACLE IN MONTREAL..

Frederico Macheda saved Manchester league title last year, you dont see him asking for Darren Fletcher money................... :hide:

Ossington Mental Youth
02-06-2010, 10:34 AM
The fact is that right now Dero is not complaining publicly. He's not holding out of training camp or anything like that. I'm sure he'll honour his contract and the grass will make him happy.

This is only a story because Gareth Wheeler couldn't get a sound bite.

yep this is sorta how i feel