PDA

View Full Version : MLSE losing fans to Video Games



canadian_bhoy
01-11-2010, 09:22 AM
The article is more about the leafs than TFC, but it is worrying to see how off the mark MLSE is on this one. Research is telling them that youth aren't interested in traditional sports anymore - instead opting for quick hits like UFC and video games.

I don't see the issue as being video games - look at the comments section of the article, that is better research than the stuff they are paying for.

The biggest problem IMO is the disengagement of the youth.

When I was a kid, my dad took me to leaf games, that's why I started liking them. Now, even though tickets are available and start at $45, people see attending a leaf game as impossible.

Right now, TFC is doing well to engage their fans, let them feel like they are part of the experience. Even if the team is a loser, if you keep people feeling a part of it, they will stay. Once you price people out, that's it.

There are obviously other issues - the NHL plays too many meaningless games and has too many teams (diluting talent). But the other point is more important I think.

Here's the article.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/nhl/mapleleafs/article/748984#comments

Parkdale
01-11-2010, 09:28 AM
I saw this morning, and thought of you after reading this line...

"It's the distracted Canadian boy."

Roogsy
01-11-2010, 09:29 AM
The truth is professional sports are pricing themselves out of interest for the next generation. They may be maximizing profits right now, but they do so by alienating younger fans which means a smaller fan base in the future.

Not to mention, there is nobody they can identify with. When I was growing up, I loved Rick Vaive, Wayne Gretzky and Mike Palmateeeeeeerrrrrrrr...

What has MLSE done to connect current players to young fans? I can barely identify half the roster on the Leafs and frankly, that is only by accident. I barely care to know them...but when I was growing up, I knew them all. From Dan Daoust to Borge Salming to Gary Leeman. I wanted to be any one of them. Who do kids want to be today? Kessel? Unlikely.

And all this before we even talk about work stoppages and contract disputes.

And let's remember that while they are losing younger fans, the older fans certainly aren't happy. I am sort of in between not being young anymore nor old. And frankly, my interest in the Leafs is at an all-time low.

H Bomb
01-11-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm really fed up of ignorant old men telling me I like UFC because I'm A.D.D. It's a fine sport that has used a core of fans to grow exponentially by listening to their fans and putting them and the sport first.

MLSE needs to stop being shit...then people might care.
The Leafs need to give something for children to hold onto...my buddy was telling me recently how 92/93 was still his best sporting memory ever! That's a sporting memory where his team didnt even get to the final. Without any success you dont gain the kids (in numbers) this lull really shows how bad the Leafs have been for a very long time.

Parkdale
01-11-2010, 09:34 AM
The truth is professional sports are pricing themselves out of interest for the next generation. They may be maximizing profits right now, but they do so by alienating younger fans which means a smaller fan base in the future.

good point roogs.

I think the reason that many of us care about the blue jays (at least a little bit, deep down inside) is because we went to a game or two when we were young and had a good time. I know people who've never been to a leafs game (myself included) and the price is a big factor. A family of 4 can still go see the Jays for under $40 (ticket cost only) but the Leafs.... good luck.

canadian_bhoy
01-11-2010, 09:35 AM
If you read through the comments it's amazing how none of the respondents feel that video games are a factor. It's all about access to the games and a winning team (imagine that).

I don't understand why MLSE needs to overcomplicate things, trying to find the solution to the mystery of why people are turning away.

Imagine having a girlfriend that called you and sent you emails saying that she loved you, but on Saturday night you couldn't go over to her place or hang out with her. Would you love her? Also imagine if she became a giant loser in the process.

daner90
01-11-2010, 09:35 AM
So typical to blame video games for everything.

A kid shoots up a school, blame video games.
A kid gets angry and beats up his sister, blame video games.
A hockey team that has been shit for years and seems not to care about it's fans...blame it on video games. Pathetic.

billyfly
01-11-2010, 09:38 AM
MLSE are trying to grab the All-star game, Out door game and draft in the next few years. They are trying to do this to bring attention to the team since they feel like they should be "Big Blue".

billyfly
01-11-2010, 09:38 AM
If you read through the comments it's amazing how none of the respondents feel that video games are a factor. It's all about access to the games and a winning team (imagine that).

I don't understand why MLSE needs to overcomplicate things, trying to find the solution to the mystery of why people are turning away.

Imagine having a girlfriend that called you and sent you emails saying that she loved you, but on Saturday night you couldn't go over to her place or hang out with her. Would you love her? Also imagine if she became a giant loser in the process.

The Kids are playing video games and don't read newspapers. Why would they be commenting on this story?

jabbronies
01-11-2010, 09:39 AM
What has MLSE done to connect current players to young fans? I can barely identify half the roster on the Leafs and frankly, that is only by accident. I barely care to know them...but when I was growing up, I knew them all. From Dan Daoust to Borge Salming to Gary Leeman. I wanted to be any one of them. Who do kids want to be today? Kessel? Unlikely.


They all want to be Sidney Crosby. All of my Nephews and friends kids all idolize him.

Roogsy
01-11-2010, 09:40 AM
MLSE needs to stop being shit...then people might care.
The Leafs need to give something for children to hold onto...my buddy was telling me recently how 92/93 was still his best sporting memory ever! That's a sporting memory where his team didnt even get to the final. Without any success you dont gain the kids (in numbers) this lull really shows how bad the Leafs have been for a very long time.

Unfortunately so very, very,VERY true.

My best memories of the Leafs are 92/93, now 16 years ago. And we got nothing out of it except a Division title.

If that is what this team relies upon to keep it's fanbase, they're screwed.

Roogsy
01-11-2010, 09:40 AM
If you read through the comments it's amazing how none of the respondents feel that video games are a factor. It's all about access to the games and a winning team (imagine that).

I don't understand why MLSE needs to overcomplicate things, trying to find the solution to the mystery of why people are turning away.

Imagine having a girlfriend that called you and sent you emails saying that she loved you, but on Saturday night you couldn't go over to her place or hang out with her. Would you love her? Also imagine if she became a giant loser in the process.

QFFT!

CoachGT
01-11-2010, 09:41 AM
I've always been a hardcore hockey guy. At least until the past four or five years. I can't handle watching a team that doesn't even really compete night in and night out. At least today the Leafs show signs of competing. Cost is only one factor in it.

But Canadian Bhoy's comments are right on the mark. TFC is engaging the fans, and I believe that groups like RPB are a big part of that. Almost every kid that I've spoken with that has been to a game wants to be a part of it more often. Every one wants to sit in the south end. My only concern is whether the team can step up to the next level to make this continue for a longer run, not in terms of the team's desire (I believe that is there) but their performance, which has been there from time to time, but not on a consistent basis.

boban
01-11-2010, 09:43 AM
I'm really fed up of ignorant old men telling me I like UFC because I'm A.D.D. It's a fine sport that has used a core of fans to grow exponentially by listening to their fans and putting them and the sport first.

MLSE needs to stop being shit...then people might care.
The Leafs need to give something for children to hold onto...my buddy was telling me recently how 92/93 was still his best sporting memory ever! That's a sporting memory where his team didnt even get to the final. Without any success you dont gain the kids (in numbers) this lull really shows how bad the Leafs have been for a very long time.
You are 100% bang on. I'm certainly not in my 20's and over the past 2-3 years I have really gotten into UFC. The Leafs? Blah. I went twice to Leaf games to the ACC - both times tickets were given to me. And both times there was seriously consideration on leaving weel before the game was over. Coupled with price, there just aren't any memories of this team to keep people interested. Win some fucken games. Problem solved.

TFC Tifoso
01-11-2010, 09:44 AM
this is because the only place an MLSE owned team will win a championship is in a video game.....

tfcleeds
01-11-2010, 09:46 AM
Typical MLSE - always trying to find a scapegoat.

Carts
01-11-2010, 09:46 AM
The truth is professional sports are pricing themselves out of interest for the next generation.

That's exactly what comes to my mind when I read stuff like this...

Kids & teens like doing things, being part of things, not just watching on TV...

You need to engage the next generation - not just throw it up on the tube...

My newphew (10 yrs old) loves the Leaf - just a total Leaf Nation kid. BUT, he is starting to talk about the Marlies more and more. Why? Because he and his Dad regulary go to the Marlies games...

I know thats all in the MLSE family, but it shows you how going to the event, and being part of the event builds interest... Prices in Toronto stop kids and families from doing that...

Carts...

canadian_bhoy
01-11-2010, 09:48 AM
Funny thing about the criticism of UFC is that people don't mention boxing. Boxing has faded in the last 10 years (I'm being generous), but Boxing was big in the 70's and with Tyson in the 80's.

It has the same quick hit style of UFC but didn't kill the Leafs or the NHL.

I've also never understood the idea that people only watch one sport. To say "pfft. they're all UFC fans now" doesn't make sense. I watch hockey, UFC, Boxing, NCAA Football, you name it. People go to TFC games all the time, then go watch UFC...How are the leafs/NHL any different?

billyfly
01-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Typical MLSE - always trying to find a scapegoat.


I think we all need to calm down a bit. MLSE is FULLY aware that losing is killing them. The world of MLSE and Big Corp Sports is a complicated place.

I always dread threads like this b/c the Leaf haters come out to play.

boban
01-11-2010, 09:51 AM
I don't understand why MLSE needs to overcomplicate things, trying to find the solution to the mystery of why people are turning away.
I know some people will just snicker, but the answer to your question is actually simple if you think of of it.
MLSE conducts these nonsense studies to distract the public which in turn dilutes critism, sometimes avoid it altogether, from MLSE. The ownership group is pathetically out of its element on how to run championship sports teams. What better way to deflect blame then hash studies that support the notion that its 'other' factors at play which are hindering the teams support.
But I also blame the media in this. Far too many times they don't take MLSE to task and praise the achievements of this organization. Achievements that have nothing to do with the actual sport!!

Roogsy
01-11-2010, 09:55 AM
The answer may be simple because we are the consumer and we know what we want.

However, I disagree with the idea that MLSE does these studies to "district the public" and "dilute criticism". The truth is, I think they really do believe what they are saying, which only makes it sadder. They are so out of touch up there in their ivory towers it's unbelievable.

Sometimes, things are so incredibly simple it's hard to believe. For them, I think it's hard to believe. Or perhaps their focus on earnings blinds them to it. Either way, I don't believe in some Macchiavellian plot to deceive the consumer.

[NBF]
01-11-2010, 09:56 AM
Kids and their video games:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/04/14/video_game_kids_wideweb__470x293,0.jpg

Teens and their porn:

http://content5.videojug.com/1c/1c5eba28-76af-747b-3670-ff0008ca4b7d/how-to-get-your-partner-to-watch-porn.jpg

Adults and their booze, porn and video games:



http://www.4daysrest.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/spock_003.jpg

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/22/nerd_poker_k5lzgznc_2.jpg

:picard:I don't think Picard would approve of this.

tfcleeds
01-11-2010, 10:06 AM
I think we all need to calm down a bit. MLSE is FULLY aware that losing is killing them. The world of MLSE and Big Corp Sports is a complicated place.

I always dread threads like this b/c the Leaf haters come out to play.

I'm not a Leaf hater - I'm actually a fan. A long suffering fan, who admittedly has lost considerable interest in recent years for reasons that others have mentioned.

Blaming video games? Please. It's a combination of the real fans being priced out of watching games, and years since there has been a winning team to watch that is contributing to the growing lack of interest.

Truth be told, my own growing lack of interest has more to do with the NHL in general, and the way the game has progressed (regressed?) under Bettman. But that's just me.

CoachGT
01-11-2010, 10:16 AM
I'm a leaf fan too, and have never put myself into the category of hater. I still watch a handful of games every year on TV. But hater is too strong - I'm now indifferent.

I go to a handful of leaf games in a year beause I get them through work. I couldn't afford to go otherwise. I took my daughter to a game last year, because I won a pair of tickets. Otherwise she wouldn't have been at a game. But I think the leaf experience (cost and continuous losing without a "star attraction" - a Sidney Crosby or someone who generates interest and excitement) takes things in another direction. We also went to a game in San Jose - $50 per ticket to see Sidney against the Sharks, and I bought the ticket a week in advance from the box office, sonething you cannot do here.

My TFC tickets are paid for out of my pocket, not any corporate or business interest.

I think the Jays experienced the shift to corporate, too. From 77-85, I paid for every ticket to every game I went to (45 in 85). IN 86/87, tickets started to become given to me through business. By 90, I stopped buying tickets altogether and haven't bought one since. And I haven't been to 3 games since the strike season. They're cheap enough, but the shift to corproate took away my appetite/interest (and the strike didn't help).

DavydMT
01-11-2010, 10:22 AM
The truth is professional sports are pricing themselves out of interest for the next generation. They may be maximizing profits right now, but they do so by alienating younger fans which means a smaller fan base in the future.


Very good point and it is true to most of live entertainment in the city. National Ballet of Canada now has a deal for student and younger people of $25 for any show, maybe professional sports should try something similar e.g. while under 19 you get discount price.

Another thing I can’t understand, price for all the musicals after first 6-10 months drops 25% to 50%, why not have lower prices at the start.

ManUtd4ever
01-11-2010, 10:30 AM
The truth is professional sports are pricing themselves out of interest for the next generation. They may be maximizing profits right now, but they do so by alienating younger fans which means a smaller fan base in the future.

Not to mention, there is nobody they can identify with. When I was growing up, I loved Rick Vaive, Wayne Gretzky and Mike Palmateeeeeeerrrrrrrr...

What has MLSE done to connect current players to young fans? I can barely identify half the roster on the Leafs and frankly, that is only by accident. I barely care to know them...but when I was growing up, I knew them all. From Dan Daoust to Borge Salming to Gary Leeman. I wanted to be any one of them. Who do kids want to be today? Kessel? Unlikely.

And all this before we even talk about work stoppages and contract disputes.

And let's remember that while they are losing younger fans, the older fans certainly aren't happy. I am sort of in between not being young anymore nor old. And frankly, my interest in the Leafs is at an all-time low.

I couldn't agree more...My earliest childhood memories in the late 70's were of watching the Leafs in the playoffs against the Flyers, Isles, Habs, etc. I was in pre-school and I was able to name every player on the Leafs and his jersey number. Even up until the late 90's I could tell you every line combination of all the good Leaf teams throughout the years and the stats of most players as well. I have simply lost interest in following the club on a day to day basis. I still cheer them on and hope they succeed, but apathy has definitely set in...

Beach_Red
01-11-2010, 10:41 AM
I'm really fed up of ignorant old men telling me I like UFC because I'm A.D.D. It's a fine sport that has used a core of fans to grow exponentially by listening to their fans and putting them and the sport first.




This is 100% true.

And I'm fed being told that fans will only support a winning team. Fans will support an interesting team, an exciting team that cycles through winning and losing seasons. We all know that to have a successful league the same few teams can't win it all the time, the same way the same teams can't be losers every year. We understand the cycles. And if we don't see them coming around, if we see the same medicority year after year after year, we lose interest.

And mentioning UFC is interesting because for years the NHL was the only place to see a real fight and the league relied on it heavily for marketing. Now they've lost that and have to fall back on their sport and it just isn't good enough if this competitive market.

Macksam
01-11-2010, 11:01 AM
Truth be told, my own growing lack of interest has more to do with the NHL in general, and the way the game has progressed (regressed?) under Bettman. But that's just me.
Well, the game has actually progressed really well since the lockout. The playoffs that happened last year were considered by many the best ever since 1994.



And mentioning UFC is interesting because for years the NHL was the only place to see a real fight and the league relied on it heavily for marketing. Now they've lost that and have to fall back on their sport and it just isn't good enough if this competitive market.
To say people turned to the UFC over the NHL because they can watch a fight there instead of the NHL is a pretentious comment. You could see a "real" fight in boxing since the dawn of television. The NHL hasn't lost anything because of the UFC.

CoachGT
01-11-2010, 11:08 AM
And I'm fed being told that fans will only support a winning team. Fans will support an interesting team, an exciting team that cycles through winning and losing seasons. We all know that to have a successful league the same few teams can't win it all the time, the same way the same teams can't be losers every year. We understand the cycles. And if we don't see them coming around, if we see the same medicority year after year after year, we lose interest.

Absolutely. Add to that the incredible amount of sport we have on TV, and a kid can now see just about every game of their favorite team. While there were kids that followed teams other than the leafs when I was growing up, most had a connection - living there previously, or family nearby, where they saw their first game, something. Now, you can watch anybody on any night.

And I think the corporate environment at the ACC doesn't help things. The game in San Jose was a complete eye opener to me compared to a leaf game. Reminded me of the leaf playoff game I wne to in the late 80s when the corproates refused their tickets and fans bought them for the playoffs. The Gardens rocked that night!

flatpicker
01-11-2010, 11:11 AM
I've been a life long Leafs fan.
But I definitely have my issues with them, and my interested has decreased quite a bit in recent years.
My problems with TML are different than my issues with the NHL as a whole.

With Toronto, it's as people have mentioned already - price, availability, team connect with fans, losing, etc.

The team has failed in so many ways that it just isn't fun any more.
I remember watching them as a kid, the team would be crap, but it was still fun to watch.
I still loved many of the players and idolized them.
Obviously I'm a little old now to be idolizing players, but I really do feel the connection to the fan base is slipping away.

As for the league.
The NHL is doing a good job of making me uninterested in the games.
Too many teams, to many boring games.
And I hate the equipment these days! They almost look like NFL players now with all that equipment!
Look at the size of goaltender equipment these days.
How much of it is saving people from injury? Are serious injuries really down from the 80's?
Back then, players look like human beings. Today they look like machines.
It's tough to be a fan of machines.

Hmmmm... I'm really rambling on here...

the end.

stugautz
01-11-2010, 11:11 AM
My cousin made a good comment to me during Christmas about this exact issue. He told me his son is not interested in sitting down for the evening and watching a hockey game. He'd rather play video games. The kid plays hockey, but has no interest in watching the leafs. Honestly, I don't blame him, video games are much more interesting than the leafs.

The leafs and the NHL also haven't done anything to change their product other than a few minor tweaks. Where is the interactive version of NHL 2010 that lets me replay portions of the game during intermissions so that I can change the outcome of tonight's leafs loss? Now THAT is an idea!

What some pro sports have done is focus so much on selling the suites, the luxury seats and pulling in money from corporations that they are disconnecting the average fan from the in game experience. What are the prices for upper bowl seats? Actually check the Leafs site to see if you can even find the single game pricing. Tell me how long it takes to find it. I personally haven't been to a leaf game in 4 years. I can afford to go, I just don't think it's worth the price. When I saw the price of seats in the Reds after my brother went to a game (he was given the seats), I almost passed out. How the hell are the middle class ever going to experience this?

Macksam
01-11-2010, 11:12 AM
Absolutely. Add to that the incredible amount of sport we have on TV, and a kid can now see just about every game of their favorite team. While there were kids that followed teams other than the leafs when I was growing up, most had a connection - living there previously, or family nearby, where they saw their first game, something. Now, you can watch anybody on any night.

And I think the corporate environment at the ACC doesn't help things. The game in San Jose was a complete eye opener to me compared to a leaf game. Reminded me of the leaf playoff game I wne to in the late 80s when the corproates refused their tickets and fans bought them for the playoffs. The Gardens rocked that night!
Yeah, real fans go to games in San Jose.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 11:13 AM
I know one thing, is a lot of high end costs go into seeing a Leaf game. (Or any hockey game for that matter)

1) Ticket - 50 to 100 per ticket
2) Parking - 20-25 plus gas or Go bus (20 round trip)
3) Food, drinks
4) Merchandise

When I was young, my dad always took me to Buffalo Sabre games. I never once thought about how much it cost him to see me happy. It's something you appreciate when you get older.

Besides, if you wanna see hockey, there's nothing wrong with AHL or OHL. Good hockey, affordable and always a good time.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 11:17 AM
I see how technology has taken over every single day I work.

When I hear people saying stuff like "You mean to tell me, I can't set a timer on how long my daughter/son goes on the computer?" or "You try telling my kid he'll have no internet to play xbox"

I don't buy the video game theory I guess is my point

jabbronies
01-11-2010, 11:28 AM
- Price is too high for me.
- I hate the atmosphere at leaf games. They are pretty dull. At least, they were 8 years ago when I actually was able to get a ticket. I haven't tried since. no point in waisting my time fighting with scalpers for the scaps that are left after Season Ticket holders are finsihed getting thier fill. The people who go are for the most part non-hockey fans. I hear about 20 stories a year of friends of mine who get Leaf tickets through work and they admit to only going there to get hammered and have next to no interest in the game.

I still watch part of all of 35-40 games per year on TV. They are just too painful to watch though. Plus I have no interest in watching them play against teams like Phoenix, Nashville or Columbus.

tfcleeds
01-11-2010, 11:40 AM
Besides, if you wanna see hockey, there's nothing wrong with AHL or OHL. Good hockey, affordable and always a good time.

Exactly...junior hockey is exciting to watch, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to spend an evening doing so. And anyone who watched the World Jrs. can attest to how exciting it can be, well, the US/Canada games anyway ;).

Carts
01-11-2010, 12:00 PM
Exactly...junior hockey is exciting to watch, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to spend an evening doing so. And anyone who watched the World Jrs. can attest to how exciting it can be, well, the US/Canada games anyway ;).

Agreed!

And for the kids, it doesn't even have to be a game as exciting as Canada/USA, just the fact that you're sitting 2-3-4-5 rows away from the action grabs a kids attention...

I'd bet a youngster (6 or 7 years old) would have a much better time, sitting against the glass at a junior game for $15 a ticket, over sitting in the purples at the ACC for $46 a ticket - and being miles from the action...

Carts...

flatpicker
01-11-2010, 12:03 PM
^ and that's why I can't understand why more people don't go to Marlies games!

Mark in Ottawa
01-11-2010, 12:21 PM
^ and that's why I can't understand why more people don't go to Marlies games!
It's that weird North American thing about... "the best".
It has to be "the best" and a lot of people sit back and let someone else tell them what that is.

It's gotta be NHL over AHL or CHL because the NHL is "the best"...
It's gotta be the NFL over the CFL because the NFL is "the best"...
It's gotta be MLB over AAA or AA ball because MLB is "the best"...
It's gotta be the EPL over the Coca-Cola championship because the EPL is "the best"...

People are such sheep sometimes.

"The best" is where you get the best bang for your buck, enjoy yourself most and feel engaged by it all.

I guess that is why I am just not a hockey fan anymore.

Carts
01-11-2010, 12:26 PM
It's that weird North American thing about... "the best".
It has to be "the best" and a lot of people sit back and let someone else tell them what that is.

It's gotta be NHL over AHL or CHL because the NHL is "the best"...
It's gotta be the NFL over the CFL because the NFL is "the best"...
It's gotta be MLB over AAA or AA ball because MLB is "the best"...
It's gotta be the EPL over the Coca-Cola championship because the EPL is "the best"...

People are such sheep sometimes.

"The best" is where you get the best bang for your buck, enjoy yourself most and feel engaged by it all.

I guess that is why I am just not a hockey fan anymore.

That is 100% true, especially or even 200% true for Toronto...

In some smaller cities and communities in Canada they do embrace what they have, even if its not "the best", but its definitely a huge Toronto thing...

Hell, I know alot of footy fans, young footy fans who say "...I'll never watch that MLS shite. Shite footy, shite league, its shite..." simply b/c its not the EPL...

All of us here have embraced what we have, our team at this level, but there's alot in Toronto who just won't! Why? Because its not "the best" league in the world...

Carts...

tfcleeds
01-11-2010, 12:28 PM
It's that weird North American thing about... "the best".
It has to be "the best" and a lot of people sit back and let someone else tell them what that is.

It's gotta be NHL over AHL or CHL because the NHL is "the best"...
It's gotta be the NFL over the CFL because the NFL is "the best"...
It's gotta be MLB over AAA or AA ball because MLB is "the best"...
It's gotta be the EPL over the Coca-Cola championship because the EPL is "the best"...

People are such sheep sometimes.

"The best" is where you get the best bang for your buck, enjoy yourself most and feel engaged by it all.

I guess that is why I am just not a hockey fan anymore.

Yes, but Toronto more so than other cities seems to have this affliction...you live in Ottawa, and the 67s usually have great turnouts for their games. Ottawa has always supported junior hockey; Toronto, not so much.

Beach_Red
01-11-2010, 12:30 PM
It's that weird North American thing about... "the best".
It has to be "the best" and a lot of people sit back and let someone else tell them what that is.

It's gotta be NHL over AHL or CHL because the NHL is "the best"...
It's gotta be the NFL over the CFL because the NFL is "the best"...
It's gotta be MLB over AAA or AA ball because MLB is "the best"...
It's gotta be the EPL over the Coca-Cola championship because the EPL is "the best"...

People are such sheep sometimes.

"The best" is where you get the best bang for your buck, enjoy yourself most and feel engaged by it all.

I guess that is why I am just not a hockey fan anymore.

This may be more a Canadian thing because in the US you have to include the NCAA in your list.

billyfly
01-11-2010, 12:33 PM
I'm not a Leaf hater - I'm actually a fan. A long suffering fan, who admittedly has lost considerable interest in recent years for reasons that others have mentioned.

Blaming video games? Please. It's a combination of the real fans being priced out of watching games, and years since there has been a winning team to watch that is contributing to the growing lack of interest.

Truth be told, my own growing lack of interest has more to do with the NHL in general, and the way the game has progressed (regressed?) under Bettman. But that's just me.


I wasn't singling u out with that comment (sorry). I just see too many pseudo conspiracy like comments in these types of threads.

Mark in Ottawa
01-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Yes, but Toronto more so than other cities seems to have this affliction...you live in Ottawa, and the 67s usually have great turnouts for their games. Ottawa has always supported junior hockey; Toronto, not so much.
Ottawa only has two teams... The $enators and the 67's... that get any kind of media play. The price point and economic demographic really define their fans.

We have tons of other sports about... including the Central Junior Hockey league (where Steve Yzerman played at one time) and the Ottawa Fury of the PDL soccer league as well as a lot of minor CFL style football teams.
Unfortunately they get little media coverage and draw very small crowds to affordable product offerings.

mmmikey
01-11-2010, 12:50 PM
rising costs in child participation in hockey play a part as well. many ppl can't afford to put their kids into it, so many kids do not grow up playing hockey as they did in the past. this will erode a younger fan base as well. kids have a strong affinity for the sports they participate in.

Roogsy
01-11-2010, 12:53 PM
rising costs in child participation in hockey play a part as well. many ppl can't afford to put their kids into it, so many kids do not grow up playing hockey as they did in the past. this will erode a younger fan base as well. kids have a strong affinity for the sports they participate in.


Very true.

This does bode well for soccer though. :thumbsup:

TFC07
01-11-2010, 12:53 PM
^ and that's why I can't understand why more people don't go to Marlies games!

It's because Toronto isn't a hockey town! Hockey is dying in Toronto (this article is another sign of that). Heck, MLSE mention this before in the past.

TFC07
01-11-2010, 12:58 PM
It's that weird North American thing about... "the best".
It has to be "the best" and a lot of people sit back and let someone else tell them what that is.

It's gotta be NHL over AHL or CHL because the NHL is "the best"...
It's gotta be the NFL over the CFL because the NFL is "the best"...
It's gotta be MLB over AAA or AA ball because MLB is "the best"...
It's gotta be the EPL over the Coca-Cola championship because the EPL is "the best"...

People are such sheep sometimes.

"The best" is where you get the best bang for your buck, enjoy yourself most and feel engaged by it all.

I guess that is why I am just not a hockey fan anymore.

Not true. CFL gets better ratings than NFL does in Canada. It's only people in Toronto who view that way (NFL over the CFL).

Pookie
01-11-2010, 01:07 PM
I agree with quite a few of the opinions expressed already.

I see the Leafs just like when the CFL decided to blackout their games. It meant that a generation of fans never had a chance to connect.

The NHL built a revenue-expense model on the backs of corporate support. A gate driven league with no major TV contract cannot afford to pay the salaries they do without selling seats at an expensive price.

Corporations, with access to tax advantages, were the target.

"Fans" couldn't get access or were priced out.

By not focusing on the secondary ticket market and allowing those prices to articifically escalate, fans are further disadvantged. It's one thing to offer a set of Purples on the ticket exchange for $62 (their cost). It's another to not have access to that exchange and have to contend with $125 seats on the scalper market.

Even the at cost lower bowl is insane. One night out in the lower bowl, at cost, essentially covers my son's Rep soccer fees for the year.

The real challenge to MLSE and other NHL owners is that corporations hold those tickets because it has value for THEIR customers.

As people turn away from the games, this value becomes weakened. Why should a corporation spend money on the Leafs if THEIR customers aren't interested?

The other factor is demographics. Boom, Bust and Echo (by David Foot) explains a lot. There are fewer people in the sports going age cohort and there will be even fewer in the years ahead.

Eventually, the profit bubble is going to burst and I hope TFC has the foresight to be able to ensure they don't paint themselves into a corner, dependent on high priced tickets to pay the bills, like the NHL has done.

H Bomb
01-11-2010, 01:16 PM
It's because Toronto isn't a hockey town! Hockey is dying in Toronto (this article is another sign of that). Heck, MLSE mention this before in the past.

I've never really thought of toronto as a specifically "Hockey town". It's a sports town no doubt with the usual mix of die hards, casuals and bandwagon jumpers.

the GTA IS hockey country. The reason Hockey is Canada's game is because it is played in the small towns of the country (no different than Football in the states or Footy in England or Brasil). This will keep Canada as the number 1 sport in the country forever as far as I'm concerned. But it doesnt help the Marlies, a small town game in a big city.

Of course there are leafs fans in Toronto and long may it continue, but it's a big city, and in big cities people want big events. Put the Marlies in Vaughn or Ajax and they'd do much better IMO

Hitcho
01-11-2010, 01:23 PM
rising costs in child participation in hockey play a part as well. many ppl can't afford to put their kids into it, so many kids do not grow up playing hockey as they did in the past. this will erode a younger fan base as well. kids have a strong affinity for the sports they participate in.

I definitely think this is a proplem. Especially in these times. once a generation or so has gone through without playing the sport in numbers, what hope is there fo that generation becoming hockey fans or focussing on putting their kids into hockey or taking them to over priced games? The damage isn't a one time hit. it;s actually exponential.

As a side note I also read that the number of rinks available for hockey is seriously on the wane, putting horrendous pressure on ice time and ramping up rental fees for mini leagues. not much MLSE can do about that, but they do to be aware of it and counteract where they can.

long term, the corproate interest will wane when no more kids and adults are interested in the sport. a nd by then it't too late to get them abck again. it would take decades.

who knows - maybe hockey as it was once known is dying in canada. too many pressures from too many directions.

Jamaicanadian
01-11-2010, 01:23 PM
I know one thing, is a lot of high end costs go into seeing a Leaf game. (Or any hockey game for that matter)

1) Ticket - 50 to 100 per ticket
2) Parking - 20-25 plus gas or Go bus (20 round trip)
3) Food, drinks
4) Merchandise

When I was young, my dad always took me to Buffalo Sabre games. I never once thought about how much it cost him to see me happy. It's something you appreciate when you get older.

Besides, if you wanna see hockey, there's nothing wrong with AHL or OHL. Good hockey, affordable and always a good time.


Life long leaf fan here..now apathetic and indifferent like a lot of you...Frankly I cant justify the expense from an enjoyment perpective....When I need a live fix my son and I will go to watch our local Jr. A squad....He doesn't play hockey but we love it and he always wants to go on Friday nights...

TFC07
01-11-2010, 01:28 PM
I've never really thought of toronto as a specifically "Hockey town". It's a sports town no doubt with the usual mix of die hards, casuals and bandwagon jumpers.

the GTA IS hockey country. The reason Hockey is Canada's game is because it is played in the small towns of the country (no different than Football in the states or Footy in England or Brasil). This will keep Canada as the number 1 sport in the country forever as far as I'm concerned. But it doesnt help the Marlies, a small town game in a big city.

Of course there are leafs fans in Toronto and long may it continue, but it's a big city, and in big cities people want big events. Put the Marlies in Vaughn or Ajax and they'd do much better IMO

No, it's not! Just look at OHL teams in GTA for proof. They have trouble selling out games too. Hockey is dying all over GTA. The fact local (houseleague) hockey leagues are folding all over GTA speaks volume the state where hockey is in GTA. BTW, isn't Vaughn more a soccer country than hockey country?

Mark in Ottawa
01-11-2010, 01:31 PM
kids have a strong affinity for the sports they participate in.
True. Also true for sports they could feel attached to.

We used to have legions of young CFL fans here in Ottawa many of whom had never played an organized game in their lives. But they could go and cheer for their hometown heroes who were a part of their community.

I am not sure that that demographic is easily available to the CFL here anymore.

Mark in Ottawa
01-11-2010, 01:33 PM
Put the Marlies in Vaughn or Ajax and they'd do much better IMO
Maybe they would do well in a small town like... St. John's NFLD :rolleyes:

H Bomb
01-11-2010, 01:44 PM
, isn't Vaughn more a soccer country than hockey country?

Everything you said before this was a good point....so good point...but Hockey in this area is suffering like Soccer is. As soccer fans many (most even) get our footy love from our parents, who are just as often Immigrants. A lot of the time we ourselves are immigrants and are adding our old allegiances to new teams. What I (as one of these imigants) wants to see is Canadian boys and girls with Canadian parents getting into soccer.

Now in an ever imigant GTA we need to see more kids of varied descent, with imigant parents to love hockey (and the leafs) and to play without their parents pushing them.

The real answer would be a winner....the leafs winning would revitalize the region for 20 years

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Everything you said before this was a good point....so good point...but Hockey in this area is suffering like Soccer is. As soccer fans many (most even) get our footy love from our parents, who are just as often Immigrants. A lot of the time we ourselves are immigrants and are adding our old allegiances to new teams. What I (as one of these imigants) wants to see is Canadian boys and girls with Canadian parents getting into soccer.

Now in an ever imigant GTA we need to see more kids of varied descent, with imigant parents to love hockey (and the leafs) and to play without their parents pushing them.

The real answer would be a winner....the leafs winning would revitalize the region for 20 years

This statement I 100% agree with.

I see local soccer around here all the time and it's usually Italian/Croatian/Portuguese etc. kids playing.

At a younger level though, it's more diverse........just the interest dies as they get older.

boban
01-11-2010, 01:51 PM
rising costs in child participation in hockey play a part as well. many ppl can't afford to put their kids into it, so many kids do not grow up playing hockey as they did in the past. this will erode a younger fan base as well. kids have a strong affinity for the sports they participate in.
That's a farce. Look out west. Participation and attendance is doing better than fine.
Things suck here in central Ontario. Why? The Leafs suck.

Chewy Unikronik
01-11-2010, 01:58 PM
If you read through the comments it's amazing how none of the respondents feel that video games are a factor. It's all about access to the games and a winning team (imagine that).

I don't understand why MLSE needs to overcomplicate things, trying to find the solution to the mystery of why people are turning away.

Imagine having a girlfriend that called you and sent you emails saying that she loved you, but on Saturday night you couldn't go over to her place or hang out with her. Would you love her? Also imagine if she became a giant loser in the process.
You're a joker, man!

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 02:07 PM
That's a farce. Look out west. Participation and attendance is doing better than fine.
Things suck here in central Ontario. Why? The Leafs suck.

And the Canucks/Oilers/Flames are not in any better situations tbh.

Maybe the Canucks and Flames..........but they are far from winning a cup.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:21 PM
There are many factors at play here.

I can attest that hockey certainly isn't dying in the GTA. I mean the fact that it is difficult to get ice in a lot of rinks in Toronto is proof of that. While the number of boys playing hockey is somewhat stagnant, or rather, just slight increases over previous years, more men and girls are playing more than before. So the game isn't dying.

I will touch on the OHL in the GTA, which is always thrown up as proof that hockey is dying.

So now you turn your attention to the NHL brand of hockey and this area, it happens to be the Leafs.

1) The biggest factor is price, plus the misconception that tickets are difficult to get. The big thing is price. As some alluded to, most people who like hockey were taken to a game by their parents. If you are in your early 20s maybe you saw some good games in the late 90s. In order to become a fan - for the most part - you have to engage with it, be it live or on TV, but preferably live.

But tickets are expensive! Yes, they are. But there are cheap tickets available - much like with TFC games - if you do your homework you can get tickets. But MLSE wants to create this illusion that all their games are sold out and want to pump up the demand even though there is some supply left.

2) Which leads to the 2nd part. I know billy will hate me when I say this but the Leafs suck. Plain and simple. Kids don't want to support losing teams. Or if they are losing teams at least have an exciting player like an Ovechkin to follow. Leafs are neither a winner nor have a superstar. All the kids I encounter these days love either Crosby or Ovechkin, much like when I was a kid, kids like Gretzky or Lemieux or before that Bobby Orr or Guy Lafleur. You can pump up Leaf Nation, but if you suck you're not going to get to the point of Red Sox Nation or Yankee Nation. The only team to have pulled this off successfully thus far are the Cubs. But that's a more recent event. They had shit crowds in the 80s when they sucked but this return to nostalgia has made the Cubs pretty successful over the last 10-15 years.

3) To touch on point #2. Toronto is a fickle city when it comes to sports. But it's still not different than most NA cities. Toronto wants to think of itself as a "world class" city thus a) we will only support winners, b) want to follow only the "best", and c) like to follow the new thing. This is more of a Toronto thing, which spills over into the GTA. People point out to the St. Michael's Majors and Brampton Battalion that their small crowds are indicators that hockey is dying. It's not. It's lack of exposure on the media part and lack of marketing on the team side. Which all the pro teams in Toronto, plus the expense of marketing in Toronto, it makes it difficult to get your name out there. MLSE is finding the same thing with the Marlies. Junior hockey, at the OHL level, is booming in southern Ontario and junior teams in big cities like Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton are pretty successful. And if you just step outside the GTA for a moment in places like Kitchener and Barrie and London, hockey is doing very well. While there are issues - hockey is dying in Toronto has been a common refrain for the last 20 years - it's not "dying". There are things that need to be done to fix the game but MLSE isn't helping matters. And really it's not their place.

So really Richard Peddie should stop finding these scapegoats - "oh video games are killing the game" - because last time I checked kids in London, in Ottawa, in Windsor, in BC, in Alberta, in Saskatchewan, also play video games and you don't hear people complaining about video games.

boban
01-11-2010, 02:22 PM
And the Canucks/Oilers/Flames are not in any better situations tbh.

Maybe the Canucks and Flames..........but they are far from winning a cup.
These cities had NHL teams reached the Finals in recent years. This creates interest in the region around them. Here in Toronto it's 40+ years since the Leafs were in the final.
Fans are showing up in those cities, as well as the junior game in the very same cities.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:22 PM
That's a farce. Look out west. Participation and attendance is doing better than fine.
Things suck here in central Ontario. Why? The Leafs suck.

I don't usually agree with boban so much, but I agree with him here.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:25 PM
Also - Leaf fans probably know this - this reconfirms that Richard Peddie is an idiot.

No wonder the Leafs stink when you have leadership like this.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 02:28 PM
These cities had NHL teams reached the Finals in recent years. This creates interest in the region around them. Here in Toronto it's 40+ years since the Leafs were in the final.
Fans are showing up in those cities, as well as the junior game in the very same cities.

I would wager more so to the junior aspect, then in the professional level.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:29 PM
Also NHL hockey, or rather the Leafs, aren't an indication of the strength in hockey in Canada. That's a very Toronto-centric view.

Grant it, a successful Toronto Maple Leafs franchise, is better for hockey in Canada. But the game is still bigger than the Leafs.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:32 PM
I would wager more so to the junior aspect, then in the professional level.

I will guarantee that the World Juniors in 2012 to be held in Calgary/Edmonton will the most successful in history. Right up there with the one in Ottawa.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 02:34 PM
I will guarantee that the World Juniors in 2012 to be held in Calgary/Edmonton will the most successful in history. Right up there with the one in Ottawa.

I agree.......hockey will always be successful in western and eastern canada, due to the popularity of junior hockey.

BuSaPuNk
01-11-2010, 02:35 PM
Also - Leaf fans probably know this - this reconfirms that Richard Peddie is an idiot.

No wonder the Leafs stink when you have leadership like this.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Toronto is never been a hockey city. It's a Leafs city. There is very little in the way of fans for Marlies, St. Mike, Brampton ect. There a niche market. This goes back to the point of people only watching or supporting the "best" game in town. I do realize that the OHL teams are probably not the greatest when it comes to marketing either however.

All these factors into the lack of caring in the larger market about anything besides the Leafs.

Plus it's almost like Red Sox Nation before they won and the Cubs fans now. They'll follow there team no matter what just because they want to be there when the ship finally comes in and they win a championship.

There will always be fans of other teams in the GTA. There just dishearted leafs fans that can't allow themselves to support a bad team. I.E. a few guys I worked with before were Leafs fans for the most part in the early 90's. As soon as they hit the skids they jumped ship. When we faced the Senators in the playoffs they show up to work in there Sentators jersey's proclaiming victory before the series even started. Well we all know what happened there. The next week they show up with the beloved blue and white declaring there love for the leafs...."i've been a Leafs fan since '88" they say.

I find it's only in Toronto that fans can be so fickle about supporting a team.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:37 PM
I agree.......hockey will always be successful in western and eastern canada, due to the popularity of junior hockey.

It's also pretty successful in southern Ontario. Try to get tickets for a Kitchener Rangers game.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 02:38 PM
Or London Knights I imagine.

Visiting my friend in London, nearly everyone had a London Knights flag on their car.

You barely see anything Bulldog related in Hamilton

Whoop
01-11-2010, 02:40 PM
Hamilton has been waiting for its NHL team since they built Copps.

I have no problem believing that the NHL could work in Hamilton.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 02:49 PM
Most of the support though would have to come from outside regions........

Shaughno
01-11-2010, 03:10 PM
Or London Knights I imagine.

Visiting my friend in London, nearly everyone had a London Knights flag on their car.

You barely see anything Bulldog related in Hamilton

Drive around Kitchener on game day for the Rangers and you'll see the same. Jackets, hats, coats, flags, kids in jerseys, parents in jerseys.

It's more of a problem in the GTA, than it is in other areas IMO.

TOBOR !
01-11-2010, 03:15 PM
not sure if this has been mentioned (long thread, lttp), but I think a lot of it also has to do with season tickets and lack of availability of single game seats. It's become so hard to find tickets that people don't even try anymore. Then they tune out and find other interests.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 03:19 PM
not sure if this has been mentioned (long thread, lttp), but I think a lot of it also has to do with season tickets and lack of availability of single game seats. It's become so hard to find tickets that people don't even try anymore. Then they tune out and find other interests.

Not really, sign up to Last Minute Leaf Club and you can always find tickets the day before or of the event.

That myth (as Whoopee has stated) is just that......

nascarguy
01-11-2010, 03:29 PM
Drive around Kitchener on game day for the Rangers and you'll see the same. Jackets, hats, coats, flags, kids in jerseys, parents in jerseys.

It's more of a problem in the GTA, than it is in other areas IMO.
you see that in Hamilton to but not as much they only get 3 to 4000 to show up to the games I guess some people do not care if there Montreal's Jr team

Macksam
01-11-2010, 03:37 PM
who knows - maybe hockey as it was once known is dying in canada. too many pressures from too many directions.
Nope.

No, it's not! Just look at OHL teams in GTA for proof. They have trouble selling out games too. Hockey is dying all over GTA. The fact local (houseleague) hockey leagues are folding all over GTA speaks volume the state where hockey is in GTA. BTW, isn't Vaughn more a soccer country than hockey country?
Participation has taken a hit no doubt, but the interest will always be there, especially around the Leafs which is all that really matters. Also, this notion about how people think kids of immigrants don't follow hockey is ludicrous. I live in Brampton where practically everybody has immigrant parents and they follow it pretty good. Even "visible minority" kids like Indians and Asians follow it extensively.

And the Canucks/Oilers/Flames are not in any better situations tbh.

Maybe the Canucks and Flames..........but they are far from winning a cup.
Leading the Northwest division is clearly not any better than the Leafs.:picard:

I would wager more so to the junior aspect, then in the professional level.
Flames and Canucks pack their arena every night.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 03:40 PM
Leading the Northwest division is clearly not any better than the Leafs.:picard:

Flames and Canucks pack their arena every night.

I never doubted their success...........my point was that the professional success of a team doesn't impact everything to do with interest in that area.

See Minnesota.......

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
you see that in Hamilton to but not as much they only get 3 to 4000 to show up to the games I guess some people do not care if there Montreal's Jr team

Where do you see it???????

I've seen more London Knights memorabilia in 2 days in London than the 11 years of Bulldogs.

billyfly
01-11-2010, 03:49 PM
Never understood why the Habs decided to put their AHL farm team in Ontario.

MrHawk
01-11-2010, 03:52 PM
Had to do with Quebec Citadels and a joint venture to move them to Hamilton to have Edmonton/Montreal involved.

2 times Bulldogs have nearly folded......they hit a nearly record low in attendance this year, and it's fairly dead inside Copps.

billyfly
01-11-2010, 03:56 PM
I disagree with Toronto not a hockey town and only a Leaf town. People here are so desperate for winning hockey they are willing to sell their children's souls and put them in other team's jerseys. I will not name them here so as to protect their children.

ManUtd4ever
01-11-2010, 04:09 PM
^^ Yes, most of my friends/relatives are Montreal, Pittsburgh, or Detroit fans...needless to say, I've taken a lot of abuse over the years, lol...

rocker
01-11-2010, 04:16 PM
ticket prices to me aren't a big deal in this equation.. let me explain.

When I was a kid, I never had any money. My dad worked to support the whole family.
I never went to a leafs game... yes, I never did. I went to a Hamilton AHL game at MLG once. But I never had the money or connections to get tickets to MLG games.
But as a kid I was a huge fan of the Leafs.. religious even. I watched every game on TV. I didn't play hockey or talk hockey with buddies. It was all about the media attention.

Then the Raps came along, and I got hooked on them. In the history of the Raptors I've gone to 3 games. Yes, 3 games in 15 years. During the highest time of interest for me (Vince Carter years) I went to one game. But I was so addicted to the Raps that I sought out the games on TV every week.

Even when I was a young lad addicted to the Blue Jays, I probably only went to 10 games a year.

I know many guys who've never gone to England but they are massive fans of Man U. Or guys who've never gone to an NFL game but they watch the NFL religiously on TV every weekend.

So this notion that kids grow disinterested because the prices increase doesn't in any way correspond to my own experience. There are people who are big fans of teams who never set foot in the arena. That's the power of broadcasting.

My theory is there's just a lot more now to consume a kid's time. Video games? sure. But more generally, I didn't have internet as a kid. I didn't have 500 channels. I didn't have a cellphone with text messages. I just had TV (with hardly any soccer on it, so not surprisingly I was not a soccer fan as a kid). Everything in media now is becoming fragmented, so I can see the same thing in kids' viewing habits.

rocker
01-11-2010, 04:23 PM
He told me his son is not interested in sitting down for the evening and watching a hockey game.

I can understand the kid tho... am I the only adult here who finds it hard to sit and watch TV anymore?
I feel lazy. I prefer to sit up at a computer now. I'll have a game on the TV next to the computer, and i'll look over when big stuff happens. But I find it hard to just sit myself down on the couch and watch TV for hours.

I think the interactivity thing is really what I crave. TV is just one-way transmission. I'll sit and watch a TFC road game on TV, but only because I'm so immersed in the team through the web. I'm part of a community online.. after the game is over I'm on here.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:24 PM
Toronto for the most part is a Leaf town. Sorry billy.

But ultimately winning is the most important factor. Winning generates excitement. Excitement generates participation.

Let me illustrate on a smaller scale.

While I am a proud Torontonian I consider London, ON my second home. London is usually used as a test market in Canada and while London a 10th of the size of Toronto, I think it's a big enough sample

Having been involved in hockey there since 1995-96, I remember going to London Knights game back then and the team stunk. Ownership stunk, but the team stunk so bad. They finished the season 3-60-3. Yet the team still managed to average anywhere between 1500 to 2000 people per game. And while kids would go to games one of the underlying concerns was that the city of London wasn't producing hockey players. There were no local kids on the Knights and this terrible. It's always better in the smaller towns outside of London, they say. The last prominent London kid to succeed was a guy by the name of Eric Lindros and he moved to Toronto to continue playing minor hockey.

Well a couple of years later the team gets better, and in one season 1999, the team goes on a magical ride to the final. They beat the local rival in the 1st round, they pull out a major upset in the 2nd and reach only their 2nd final in their 30 odd years. The team loses in the final. But the rink is packed. 5000-6000 people per game. The place is LOUD. Lots of kids in the stands. There is an excitement in the air. London minor hockey changes a few changes in their leadership.

Around the same time, people start talking. Realize yeah, the London Ice House (the arena) is fine but it's old and it's falling apart and it's hard to get to. The team is put up for sale. The team could move to Buffalo - oh no!

There are two bids, each with their own new arena plans. One wins out. The citizens cry "we're wasting money". Let the ex NHLers build the rink, etc.

At the same time a new "superstar" emerges and captures the attention of the city, Rick Nash. The team reverts back to stinking but this Nash kid is good. Little kids want to be him. London minor hockey teams are doing better provincially.

2002, the new rink opens. Wow everyone says. This place is awesome it's like a little NHL rink. 9000+ people fill the place. The team is getting better. It's one of the things to do on Friday night. Announcement comes down, London will host the Memorial Cup. As it happens, it's during the NHL lockout, the Memorial Cup is a zoo.

That same year, the London Jr. Knights, featuring a pretty good defenseman named Drew Doughty, loses in the final of the OHL Cup. More and more players are developing from London. The minor hockey teams are winning provincial championships, tournaments, etc.

The story continues.

Anyway, in a span of about 10 years, the city of London, one of the largest in Canada (I think it's 10th or 11th in terms of pop.) was considered a backwater for hockey, now it's pretty successful. Look up where current prospects are from you notice towns like London, St. Thomas, Strathroy, etc.

There is a renaissance in Windsor. There was one in Ottawa back when the Senators first came on the scene.

Yes, there is less to do in those cities than in Toronto, but there are immigrants there and other sports are popular there (football, both kinds, is pretty big in London as well). But ultimately when you win you're in the news. When you're in the news, there is a buzz. Where there is a buzz, people want to be around.

It's no different when the Jays first came on the scene, no different when the Raptors came on the scene and we see the same thing happening with TFC. But with the Leafs stink, they slide further down the relevance scale. They are still #1 in the city and will be for a long time but where they used to have say 90% of the pie, they only have 55 or 65% of the pie. Still the majority but slipping.

Only way to get that back is to win, not to blame "video games" for them slipping. That's a lazy man's excuse.

Friends of mine who aren't huge football fans but are sports fans ask me "yeah TFC is big right now and could be bigger but if the team keeps missing the playoffs, will it still be jammed?" Hopefully that's something we don't find out, but if there is a lockout and the team misses the playoffs again, will MLSE blame "video games" in a drop in attendance?

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:28 PM
I can understand the kid tho... am I the only adult here who finds it hard to sit and watch TV anymore?
I feel lazy. I prefer to sit up at a computer now. I'll have a game on the TV next to the computer, and i'll look over when big stuff happens. But I find it hard to just sit myself down on the couch and watch TV for hours.

I think the interactivity thing is really what I crave. TV is just one-way transmission. I'll sit and watch a TFC road game on TV, but only because I'm so immersed in the team through the web. I'm part of a community online.. after the game is over I'm on here.

I think it's the next wave.

With the advent of 3D TV broadcasting and being immersed in the game, the question was raised last week, why even go to the game?

I know World Soccer did an article about the future of the game where one day you can experience the game from your living room but feel like you're in the sidelines.

That, to me, sounds pretty cool. And hockey is one of those games when you watch up close is probably one of the best to be able to appreciate it.

It was the same when I was able to stand 10 feet from a professional tennis match and just experience how fast it really is.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:40 PM
Also to add onto rocker's point, I didn't go to MLG for a hockey game for the first time until I was 10 years old. But by then I was already a hockey fan and I knew I didn't like the Leafs. But like he said I would religiously watch the game whether it was the Leafs on CBC or CHCH or the Sabres on WGRZ or sometimes the Canadiens on the French channel.

But my friends in school were Leaf fans or Oiler fans. A couple were Islanders or Habs or Bruins fans.

As I got older, girls would attract your attention and hockey wasn't as important. It wasn't until the Leafs started winning again that I saw friends who weren't huge hockey fans get back into the game.

And I just thought of something, has the collapse of the hockey card market also led to the lack of "hockey talk" amongst kids?

Hitcho
01-11-2010, 04:40 PM
Nope.

What so that's it? Take someone's position and just write "Nope" as if that's definitive? :D

I'm neither Canadian nor a hockey follower so I don't claim to know an awful lot about this issue, but I have seen multiple articles on how rinks are closing down and none are being built to replace them, leading to massive ice time pressure for mini leagues etc and/or non-availability full stop. It also seems to be the case that at least in TO not as many kids are getting into hockey as in previous generations - lots of reasons for this, from cost of equipment and enrolment fees to landed residents whjo have no background or interest in the sport. But it seems to be the case nonetheless.

So, fast forward a few years and what are the longer term ramificatiosn of this? I did NOT say hockey is dying in Canada. Quite clearly it is not. BUt it may be that hockey as it was once known in Canada is at an end - ie, that it is no longer an all-pervasive dominate-the-nation's-culture-100% at every level sport any more. How can it be if more kids are now playing soccer than are playing hockey?

It's a semantic point, but probably a valid one nonetheless. Of course, the romantics won't have you believe it (and nor will the Timbits adverts). Hockey lives on in Canada and likely always will. Just not as engrained intot he mind of every person living here as it used to be.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:47 PM
What so that's it? Take someone's position and just write "Nope" as if that's definitive? :D

I'm neither Canadian nor a hockey follower so I don't claim to know an awful lot about this issue, but I have seen multiple articles on how rinks are closing down and none are being built to replace them, leading to massive ice time pressure for mini leagues etc and/or non-availability full stop. It also seems to be the case that at least in TO not as many kids are getting into hockey as in previous generations - lots of reasons for this, from cost of equipment and enrolment fees to landed residents whjo have no background or interest in the sport. But it seems to be the case nonetheless.

So, fast forward a few years and what are the longer term ramificatiosn of this? I did NOT say hockey is dying in Canada. Quite clearly it is not. BUt it may be that hockey as it was once known in Canada is at an end - ie, that it is no longer an all-pervasive dominate-the-nation's-culture-100% at every level sport any more. How can it be if more kids are now playing soccer than are playing hockey?

It's a semantic point, but probably a valid one nonetheless. Of course, the romantics won't have you believe it (and nor will the Timbits adverts). Hockey lives on in Canada and likely always will. Just not as engrained intot he mind of every person living here as it used to be.

More kids have been playing football than hockey for years. In fact, this was first reported back in the 90s. I remember this was one of the points brought up back in the "Hockey Summit" of '99.

The difference in recent times is that while more kids are playing football there was nothing to aspire to so the numbers would drop off when they became teenagers. Now there is somewhat of a carrot there in with the MLS. But in reality because more kids play football than hockey is just that. I mean I know a lot of hockey players who play football in the summer. Where it used to hockey in the winter and baseball in the summer, now with a lot of them it's hockey in the winter, football in the summer.

I am almost certain that football (soccer) is in the top 3 among participation sports for kids in the US, yet how come MLS can't crack the big 4?

A US World Cup championship and Canada qualifying for the World Cup would be huge. Until then it's still viewed as a kid's game by many.

I can see football supplanting baseball in Toronto shortly and see it competing with the Raptors in 15-20 years. Problem is MLS is still seen as "subpar" while MLB and the NBA are the pinnacle, in their respective sports.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:50 PM
Either way, my point in all of this is that Richard Peddie is using a scapegoat if you will, to mask issues, or future issues, with MLSE and the Leafs.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:54 PM
The gist of the article.

Bibby said the "distracted boy" might pay more attention to an exciting, winning team – especially one with affordable, available tickets.
"Will the trend change? It can, providing the Maple Leafs become a far more attractive entertainment option than they are now, complete with ticket prices that allow young people and others to at least get in the doors," Bibby wrote in an email.

BuSaPuNk
01-11-2010, 04:55 PM
Either way, my point in all of this is that Richard Peddie is using a scapegoat if you will, to mask issues, or future issues, with MLSE and the Leafs.

His just doing what they've been doing all along the status quo.

BuSaPuNk
01-11-2010, 04:57 PM
The gist of the article.

Bibby said the "distracted boy" might pay more attention to an exciting, winning team – especially one with affordable, available tickets.
"Will the trend change? It can, providing the Maple Leafs become a far more attractive entertainment option than they are now, complete with ticket prices that allow young people and others to at least get in the doors," Bibby wrote in an email.

They have somewhat dealt with the issue of tickets getting to the fans. With the Last Minute Club you get an e-mail sent to you about a month in advance of tickets being available to certain games. They also say in this e-mail and on the ticketmaster website that tickets can be available leading up to the game and even on game day. That's how I got my tickets for the Flames game this year.

Whoop
01-11-2010, 04:58 PM
I can see it now in the summer...

Chris Bosh signs with [insert team here], Peddie blames YouTube

Whoop
01-11-2010, 05:00 PM
But when a team isn't winning, you can't giveaway tickets.

When TFC went in a funk in midsummer I couldn't get rid of my tickets. But when they were in the playoff hunt in the fall and there was an excitement about the team, all of a sudden everyone wanted my tickets.

Limani_Ole
01-11-2010, 05:01 PM
the leafs stink..

its almost like they are delusional that people dont wanna follow a crappy team..
"this formula has always worked.. what happened now? dam those video games they are the end of us all"

Whoop
01-11-2010, 05:03 PM
Damn FIFA 10!

It's more exciting than the MLS!

Whoop
01-11-2010, 05:06 PM
I also remember reading an article in World Soccer about two years ago and football commentators lamenting that football was "dying" in Europe because there weren't any kids playing football on the streets anymore.

I'll have to dig it out.

Adults...

Beach_Red
01-11-2010, 05:36 PM
It may also have to do with hockey finding its new "normal." Once it was the only game in town (to watch or play, practically) and now there are plenty more.

Macksam
01-11-2010, 07:13 PM
What so that's it? Take someone's position and just write "Nope" as if that's definitive? :D

I'm neither Canadian nor a hockey follower so I don't claim to know an awful lot about this issue, but I have seen multiple articles on how rinks are closing down and none are being built to replace them, leading to massive ice time pressure for mini leagues etc and/or non-availability full stop. It also seems to be the case that at least in TO not as many kids are getting into hockey as in previous generations - lots of reasons for this, from cost of equipment and enrolment fees to landed residents whjo have no background or interest in the sport. But it seems to be the case nonetheless.

So, fast forward a few years and what are the longer term ramificatiosn of this? I did NOT say hockey is dying in Canada. Quite clearly it is not. BUt it may be that hockey as it was once known in Canada is at an end - ie, that it is no longer an all-pervasive dominate-the-nation's-culture-100% at every level sport any more. How can it be if more kids are now playing soccer than are playing hockey?

It's a semantic point, but probably a valid one nonetheless. Of course, the romantics won't have you believe it (and nor will the Timbits adverts). Hockey lives on in Canada and likely always will. Just not as engrained intot he mind of every person living here as it used to be.
Alright, that nope was uncalled for. You deserved better.

Like I said before, I agree that participation has taken a hit which is understandable. It's a sport you have to start very young in order to play competitively. However, participating in a sport and following it as a spectator sport are two different things.

There probably is a positive correlation between people who follow sports they participate in, but I think hockey would be an exception. Most people I know who follow hockey and the NHL have not strapped on the skates to play a competitive game in their life.

The sport will always be watched due to the fact we grow up with it, and it's an entertaining sport to boot.

Macksam
01-11-2010, 07:22 PM
I can see football supplanting baseball in Toronto shortly and see it competing with the Raptors in 15-20 years. Problem is MLS is still seen as "subpar" while MLB and the NBA are the pinnacle, in their respective sports.
I think you mean TFC. Soccer itself is already more popular than baseball or basketball in the GTA. TFC still needs a little ways to go though.

Beach_Red
01-11-2010, 08:09 PM
I think you mean TFC. Soccer itself is already more popular than baseball or basketball in the GTA. TFC still needs a little ways to go though.

I wonder where the NFL would fit if it ever came to Toronto.

TFC07
01-11-2010, 08:43 PM
I think you mean TFC. Soccer itself is already more popular than baseball or basketball in the GTA. TFC still needs a little ways to go though.

That's debateable! Outside of non-WASP European community, who else favour soccer over baseball and basketball? There's already a stat that states teenages favour NBA/basketball more than soccer (plus other pro leagues in North America) in GTA. You probably can apply this in 18-30 age group as well.

Detroit_TFC
01-11-2010, 09:58 PM
Damn FIFA 10!

It's more exciting than the MLS!

Yeah, for whoever is playing me.

12 - 0.

Macksam
01-11-2010, 11:45 PM
That's debateable! Outside of non-WASP European community, who else favour soccer over baseball and basketball? There's already a stat that states teenages favour NBA/basketball more than soccer (plus other pro leagues in North America) in GTA. You probably can apply this in 18-30 age group as well.
That study was probably poorly done like most statistical surveys.

Recent marketing studies have shown West Asians like Persians and Arabs favour soccer the most out of any sport.

East Asians like Chinese and Koreans and people of African descent, sub-saharan I take it, like basketball the most.

Indians follow hockey the most so I don't know where they as a whole stand in a direct confrontation between soccer and basketball. I would take it 50/50. I know a lot who like both.

I am ofcourse talking about the younger demograph here.

habstfc
01-12-2010, 12:36 AM
As a habs fan and a tfc fan, I'm somewhat of a rare breed in these parts. In my 42 years on this planet I've never been a leafs fan, however I do feel for their fans who have gone through life with nothing to cheer for, for the most part.

1. Hockey is still king anywhere in canada even in multicultural gta. Soccer may have considerable enrollment at the youth level it still has a long way to go to catch hockey in national interest. My 13 year old daughter plays youth soccer and loves it but has never gone to any tfc game with me as it doesn't interest her at all. She will watch hockey with me on occasion.

2. UFC doesnt interest me or many of the people I know or work with, even most of the younger guys in their 20's don't really follow it.

Kilgore Trout
01-12-2010, 07:09 PM
wow, some of you are delusional.

Hockey may be less dominant/less popular than it used to be, but it isn't dying. 3.3 million people watched the world jrs final. Hockey absolutely dominates all other sports on television, and regular season Leafs games get similar ratings to NFL playoff games, often even beating them. Even games involving the Flames or Canucks, who hardly have the Leafs' fanbase, routinely get excellent ratings.

Toronto is a great city and a powerful city, but it is not Canada. Hockey is still king, and won't be knocked off its pedestal in my lifetime (which I'd guess has about 55 years left in it at the rate I'm going).

Brooker
01-12-2010, 09:24 PM
this is the most ridiculous article/thread i've read in a while.

billyfly
01-12-2010, 09:45 PM
As a habs fan and a tfc fan, I'm somewhat of a rare breed in these parts. In my 42 years on this planet I've never been a leafs fan, however I do feel for their fans who have gone through life with nothing to cheer for, for the most part.

1. Hockey is still king anywhere in canada even in multicultural gta. Soccer may have considerable enrollment at the youth level it still has a long way to go to catch hockey in national interest. My 13 year old daughter plays youth soccer and loves it but has never gone to any tfc game with me as it doesn't interest her at all. She will watch hockey with me on occasion.

2. UFC doesnt interest me or many of the people I know or work with, even most of the younger guys in their 20's don't really follow it.

Who allowed this guy on the boards? I could have sworn we (I) passed a no Hab rule?

mmmikey
01-13-2010, 12:21 AM
That's a farce. Look out west. Participation and attendance is doing better than fine.
Things suck here in central Ontario. Why? The Leafs suck.

was the original article not about MLSE's fanbase? it's one of many issues hockey here in the GTA faces. just because it's not your favorite theory, it doesn't mean it is farcical. trying to place the blame on a declining fan base on a single reason is a farce in and of itself.

Brooker
01-13-2010, 01:11 AM
Leafs get good = Back to normal.

MUFC_Niagara
01-13-2010, 01:19 AM
How about winning something. That might increase interest in your shitty hockey team. What a stupid article.

Brooker
01-13-2010, 01:43 AM
our shitty hockey team created your soccer team... you should thank god for the Leafs.

but i agree the article is stupid.

boban
01-13-2010, 10:12 AM
was the original article not about MLSE's fanbase? it's one of many issues hockey here in the GTA faces. just because it's not your favorite theory, it doesn't mean it is farcical. trying to place the blame on a declining fan base on a single reason is a farce in and of itself.
But costs are also a challenge parents face in other parts of the country.
You think they get free equipment or registration or something.
They pay like they do here.
I never said it's one reason only why hockey interest in declining.

Whoop
01-13-2010, 04:06 PM
This thread reminds me of this.

47OmzqOnc9Q

Roenick was awesome in Sega '93.

nobodybeatsthewiz
01-13-2010, 04:12 PM
^ i love how the instant replays one after the other would reset the horn and itd blare over itself, lol.