DeRo 1-on-1 with Gerry Dobson...

[Carts]

Thoughts on Dero's interview...

I'll go into my thoughts in a bit, just starting the thread...

Most notably was his comment about some players high pay being "embarrassingly so" and that he's "paid alright, but not getting what is deserved"...

None of us can say for certain, but that sounds like he's talking de Guzman...

Carts...

[Marco2K]

I dont like how he is always talking about how he is underpaid.

Maybe he should have stayed in Houston.


I know he is a winner but enough about the MONEY!!$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Carts]

I dont like how he is always talking about how he is underpaid.

Maybe he should have stayed in Houston.


I know he is a winner but enough about the MONEY!!$$$$$$$$$$$$

Unfortunately that's the corner TFC have painted themselves into by promising him DeRo DP slot - then he asks Houston to let him go - they do and TFC pull that off the table... Months later, then give stupid money to a player that showed little interest in coming here, other than the money...

It will be a dressing room issue all year - unless, JDG becomes out-and-out the best player and a difference maker on the pitch...

If he doesn't, it'll be the elephant in the room all year, every year...

Carts...

[Yeoman]

the more i hear about this? the more i'm thinking that dero is one of the cancers in the dressing room

[Keyman]

I really don't think the comment was directed towards De Guzman. I'm more inclined to believe that De Rosario is referring to players such as Ali Gerba or Pablo Vitti, players whose salaries are completely unjustifiable, and at a relatively equivalent level to his.

[Carts]

I really don't think the comment was directed towards De Guzman. I'm more inclined to believe that De Rosario is referring to players such as Ali Gerba or Pablo Vitti, players whose salaries are completely unjustifiable, and at a relatively equivalent level to his.

It could even have been in reference to the entire Beckham experiement perhaps...???

Saying "embarrassingly" would fit as the league pays Beckham the cash and he only plays half a season...

Carts...

[Keyman]

It could even have been in reference to the entire Beckham experiement perhaps...???

Saying "embarrassingly" would fit as the league pays Beckham the cash and he only plays half a season...

Carts...

Exactly. It's a comment which is very open to interpretation. Obviously it's going to be twisted many different ways by the fans and media, and accusations will undoubtedly be hurled towards him. But I'll reserve judgement on De Rosario, what he's stated is plain truth, and although some may see the comment as cancerous, I see it as a welcome bit of honesty seldom seen in sports. De Rosario was our best player, he deserves a higher salary, and other players, whether they are teammates or opposing players, do have salaries which are frankly embarrassing.

[Rudi]

The "embarrassingly so" comment was in reference to how low some players are paid in the league.

At least that's how I heard it.

[jazzy]

The "embarrassingly so" comment was in reference to how low some players are paid in the league.

At least that's how I heard it.

ME too...Which brings up the point how can you not support the under paid players ($35,000) and such, if a strike comes up Jan 31, Yet It would be completely horrible for us the supporters and the leagues delicate progress. MLSE has all our money 16,000 at least for seasons, so they lose zilch.

[Shakes McQueen]

Love DeRo, but getting a little tired of him complaining about his salary in public. You chose to sign on the dotted line, Dwayne. And you got a healthy raise over what Houston were paying you.

I agree with his sentiment that most players are woefully underpaid, however.

- Scott

[Pigfynn]

Exactly, keep it behind closed doors Dwayne.

[TFC115]

JDG actually does his banking at my bank, and it's funny that this conversation came. I asked him if he's heard anything about anyone coming, and he alluded to that he thinks the 2nd DP spot will come into affect and he believe they are going to offer it to Atiba Hutchinson. This is interesting. If this does end up happening, what will DeRo do?

[torontocelt]

JDG actually does his banking at my bank, and it's funny that this conversation came. I asked him if he's heard anything about anyone coming, and he alluded to that he thinks the 2nd DP spot will come into affect and he believe they are going to offer it to Atiba Hutchinson. This is interesting. If this does end up happening, what will DeRo do?

If this were to happen I would imagine he would be well pissed off. In my opinion he is our most important player and based on last season he is worth DP money. I would be surprised if he does not end next season as our most important player also.

[v00d00daddy]

I'm starting to think that DeRo is a great individual player but a bad teammate.

He's shown that he can be selfish on the field with his play and off with some of these comments.

No more whining DeRo.

[Roogsy]

Unfortunately that's the corner TFC have painted themselves into by promising him DeRo DP slot - then he asks Houston to let him go - they do and TFC pull that off the table... Months later, then give stupid money to a player that showed little interest in coming here, other than the money...

It will be a dressing room issue all year - unless, JDG becomes out-and-out the best player and a difference maker on the pitch...

If he doesn't, it'll be the elephant in the room all year, every year...

Carts...

This is exactly right.


There were promises made and we can't blame DeRo if he is seeking those promises to be kept. DeRo is a respected player in the dressing room, one of the few that had the balls to stand up and light a fire under this team when they were losing concentration. In my opinion, he should be wearing the armband. You guys are taking his comments about money, not understanding where they are coming from and then making giant leaps of assumptions into what it means in the dressing room.

[TFC07]

JDG actually does his banking at my bank, and it's funny that this conversation came. I asked him if he's heard anything about anyone coming, and he alluded to that he thinks the 2nd DP spot will come into affect and he believe they are going to offer it to Atiba Hutchinson. This is interesting. If this does end up happening, what will DeRo do?

Why would Hutchinson leave Europe and play for TFC? He's still young and got plenty of years left to play in Europe. Besides, how exactly does Hutchinson fit in our needs? We need a CB/defenders and a striker. Seriously, if do get a 2nd DP and Mo decides to use it on Hutchinson, then Mo should be fired right on the spot.

[Shakes McQueen]

Regarding whatever promises may or may not have been made originally - he still ultimately chose to sign his non-DP contract with us, and that should be the end of it.

If he didn't like it, he could have played out his Houston contract, and then gone elsewhere. But he chose to sign to his current terms.

Players under contract should not complain publicly about their contracts. They negotiated them, and they ultimately signed on to the terms.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Players under contract should not complain publicly about their contracts. They negotiated them, and they ultimately signed on to the terms.

Why can't they comment on their contracts? It's one of many strategies to send messages and signals to those negotiating the terms for future contracts. Let's remember that the period in between contract signings are when the participants of these contracts create leverage for the next session. This is one way to create leverage. As long as he produces on the pitch, I don't care if he screams it from the rooftops every day. Why should we?

[Shakes McQueen]

Why can't they comment on their contracts? It's one of many strategies to send messages and signals to those negotiating the terms for future contracts. Let's remember that the period in between contract signings are when the participants of these contracts create leverage for the next session. This is one way to create leverage. As long as he produces on the pitch, I don't care if he screams it from the rooftops every day. Why should we?

Because in any other contract position, or most other sports for that matter, complaining publicly about your current contract is considered unprofessional.

You rarely see players in almost any other sport complain about how much they are being paid - especially when they just signed a new deal a year ago.

This isn't the period between contracts - he is signed to an active contract with us right now. If you're out of contract, go to the media and complain to create leverage all you want.

He signed on the dotted line. I'm tired of him talking about what he was allegedly "promised" by the team initially.

- Scott

[torontocelt]

In any job, especially in sports, if you out perform your peers you are recognized for it, that is what DeRo done last season. I don't think TFC would have picked up nearly as many points as they did last season without him, he was the most integral part of the team. I would be surprised next season if DeGuzman takes over De'Ro's mantle as our mvp, DeRo has done everything right on the pitch so far to show that he should be a DP. People sign contracts in football but it is normal procedure for contracts to be improved if the players performance has justified it.

[Shakes McQueen]

People sign contracts in football but it is normal procedure for contracts to be improved if the players performance has justified it.

That doesn't make it right. You sign a deal, you play out that deal.

Soccer player complain for raises when they play well, yet to my memory, I don't ever recall a player taking a smaller contract when they've had a shitty season. Then they're all about "contractual obligations", right?

- Scott

[torontocelt]

That doesn't make it right. You sign a deal, you play out that deal.

Soccer player complain for raises when they play well, yet to my memory, I don't ever recall a player taking a smaller contract when they've had a shitty season. Then they're all about "contractual obligations", right?

- Scott

Welcome to the world of modern day professional football

[Rudi]

In any job, especially in sports, if you out perform your peers you are recognized for it, that is what DeRo done last season. I don't think TFC would have picked up nearly as many points as they did last season without him, he was the most integral part of the team. I would be surprised next season if DeGuzman takes over De'Ro's mantle as our mvp, DeRo has done everything right on the pitch so far to show that he should be a DP. People sign contracts in football but it is normal procedure for contracts to be improved if the players performance has justified it.
His contract was improved.

He got a $100,000+ per year raise after he was traded to Toronto. And TFC was under zero obligation to renegotiate the deal, given that DeRo was only one year into a four year deal with Houston at the time.

I love DeRo, but he needs to accept the terms that he negotiated in good faith with TFC/MLS.

[torontocelt]

His contract was improved.

He got a $100,000+ per year raise after he was traded to Toronto. And TFC was under zero obligation to renegotiate the deal, given that DeRo was only one year into a four year deal with Houston at the time.

I love DeRo, but he needs to accept the terms that he negotiated in good faith with TFC/MLS.

Regardless player power and success forces clubs throughout the world to renegotiate contracts now, it is part of football. I am not saying it is right but it is definitely part of modern day football. You have players who talk themselves out of clubs every day, you have players who openly court other teams every day, contracts mean next to nothing nowadays.

[rocker]

De Ro was underpaid at Houston... now he's paid what he's worth in an MLS context. I would have a problem with him making more than he's getting now. The guy isn't a kid anymore... we're probably going to see a decline over the next few years.. and his stats for last season were based upon a ball-hog style that often took opportunities away from his teammates. I can distinctly remember him running in front of teammates to take away chances from them, or failing to pass so he could shoot the ball over the net. He gave us highlight reel plays, but if he involved his teammates, perhaps his teammates would have contributed more themselves. I'm actually really interested to see how Preki deals with De Ro's tendency to wander out of position and freelance.

So whatever the guy was promised, I think he's paid fairly.. and from a cap perspective, the last thing I want to see is more cap devoted to De Ro (which would happen in a roundabout way if we have to trade players to make the room to get the second DP spot to pay De Ro more).

[Roogsy]

His contract was improved.

He got a $100,000+ per year raise after he was traded to Toronto. And TFC was under zero obligation to renegotiate the deal, given that DeRo was only one year into a four year deal with Houston at the time.

I love DeRo, but he needs to accept the terms that he negotiated in good faith with TFC/MLS.

Most of that raise was wiped out with the higher tax rate he pays here and the foreign exchange difference that has happened since.

In relative terms, he is almost at the same place as he was in Houston...a playoff team in a nicer climate with a proven and drama-free front office.

So we should also consider the fact that he didn't have to demand to come up here, he could have stayed there as well. Dragging his family up here was a sacrifice we all need to recognize.

[Shakes McQueen]

Most of that raise was wiped out with the higher tax rate he pays here and the foreign exchange difference that has happened since.

In relative terms, he is almost at the same place as he was in Houston...a playoff team in a nicer climate with a proven and drama-free front office.

So we should also consider the fact that he didn't have to demand to come up here, he could have stayed there as well. Dragging his family up here was a sacrifice we all need to recognize.

He signed the contract that was offered to him.

I respect everything he has done in his time with this team thus far, but I still consider complaining about his contract in public to be unprofessional.

- Scott

[rocker]

by the way, just checked the union documents and De Ro was the 9th highest paid player in MLS last season out of about 390 players. He finished 8th in goal scoring, so on goal ranking alone, he was paid just about what he was worth.

[OneLoveOneEric]

He signed the contract that was offered to him.

I respect everything he has done in his time with this team thus far, but I still consider complaining about his contract in public to be unprofessional.

- Scott

Me too. This is the difference -- to give an analogy -- between a Cristiano Ronaldo and a Ryan Giggs. Ronaldo is a brilliant footballer that you enjoy watching despite his overarching cuntishness. Nobody really knows where to stand with him because he is at once so amazing and so horrific. Then there's a guy like Giggs, that even people who hate United don't talk shit about. He's just all business -- a Roy Halladay type -- that puts his head down, plays the game, doesn't look for lime light, and does whatever arguing or negotiating he's going to do with the club behind closed doors.

Really, I think I just made up a new behaviour evaluation scale. Every pro athlete -- or maybe every person? -- should ask themselves where they stand on the Ronaldo-Giggs scale :)
Saying you're underpaid all the time edges you closer to the Ronaldo side.....

[JonO]

In any job, especially in sports, if you out perform your peers you are recognized for it
I'll disagree with that... There are tons of athletes who earn less than players who are less skilled than them. Happens all the time...

[westrouge]

Does anyone have the link for the interview?

[Brooker]

i was wondering the same thing.

[TorCanSoc]

DeRo bashing? Words fail me.

[Shakes McQueen]

DeRo bashing? Words fail me.

Daring to be a fairly critical of one of our players is not "bashing" them.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

He signed the contract that was offered to him.

I respect everything he has done in his time with this team thus far, but I still consider complaining about his contract in public to be unprofessional.

- Scott

We praise him when he complains about something that we agree with.

He complained about the turf we loved him.

He spoke up when the team underperforms and we praise him for standing up.

And lots of people around here credit his speaking about the turf to be a contributing factor to us getting grass next year.

But when he speaks up about something that was promised to him, we'd like him to shut up.

I don't get it.

I'd understand if there weren't promises made to him, he signed and then wants more. But we are talking about a player who is unhappy and maybe, just maybe we should be looking at the people who made the promises as opposed to the guy who expected them to come through.

[Redcoe15]

DeRo may sound a little whinny, but his play last year showed he could back up his talk. Some others on the team can't make that claim. <*cough* Barrett *cough*> And if TFC made him promises on his contract, then it's up to TFC to find a way to make him happy.

[Roogsy]

DeRo may sound a little whinny, but his play last year showed he could back up his talk. And if TFC made him promises on his contract, then it's up to TFC to find a way to make him happy.

This is how I feel.

If DeRo would have shit the bed last year, I'd have a problem with his speaking up. But the man was basically the only player that showed up last year. He basically carried this team. He did his part. Now it's up to the team to hold up their side of the bargain.

[Shakes McQueen]

We praise him when he complains about something that we agree with.

He complained about the turf we loved him.

He spoke up when the team underperforms and we praise him for standing up.

And lots of people around here credit his speaking about the turf to be a contributing factor to us getting grass next year.

But when he speaks up about something that was promised to him, we'd like him to shut up.

I don't get it.

I'd understand if there weren't promises made to him, he signed and then wants more. But we are talking about a player who is unhappy and maybe, just maybe we should be looking at the people who made the promises as opposed to the guy who expected them to come through.

Speaking up about the team's performance in public is completely different than complaining about your mutually agreed upon contract with MLSE. Complaining about things that are not in your contract after the fact, is unprofessional.

If he was indeed initially "promised" the DP slot, then he should have demanded it be in the contract for him to come here. He didn't. He signed on the dotted line, and took his $100k pay increase under the current terms.

If he had a problem with his current deal, it was up to him to iron that out in negotiations. Not bitch about it to the media a year into the deal.

That is in no way the same as trying to motivate your team, by calling them out in public. Nor is it the same as speaking up about the turf - something that has nothing to do with his contract.

Now, if he refused to play for us because of the turf? Then it would be related. And I would tell him to put on his shirt and go honour the contract he signed, for the team that he knew played on FieldTurf ahead of time.

- Scott

[Marco2K]

Speaking up about the team's performance in public is completely different than complaining about your mutually agreed upon contract with MLSE. Complaining about things that are not in your contract after the fact, is unprofessional.

If he was indeed initially "promised" the DP slot, then he should have demanded it be in the contract for him to come here. He didn't. He signed on the dotted line, and took his $100k pay increase under the current terms.

If he had a problem with his current deal, it was up to him to iron that out in negotiations. Not bitch about it to the media a year into the deal.

That is in no way the same as trying to motivate your team, by calling them out in public. Nor is it the same as speaking up about the turf - something that has nothing to do with his contract.

Now, if he refused to play for us because of the turf? Then it would be related. And I would tell him to put on his shirt and go honour the contract he signed, for the team that he knew played on FieldTurf ahead of time.

- Scott


agreed!!

[Roogsy]

Speaking up about the team's performance in public is completely different than complaining about your mutually agreed upon contract with MLSE. Complaining about things that are not in your contract after the fact, is unprofessional.

If he was indeed initially "promised" the DP slot, then he should have demanded it be in the contract for him to come here. He didn't. He signed on the dotted line, and took his $100k pay increase under the current terms.

If he had a problem with his current deal, it was up to him to iron that out in negotiations. Not bitch about it to the media a year into the deal.

That is in no way the same as trying to motivate your team, by calling them out in public. Nor is it the same as speaking up about the turf - something that has nothing to do with his contract.

Now, if he refused to play for us because of the turf? Then it would be related. And I would tell him to put on his shirt and go honour the contract he signed, for the team that he knew played on FieldTurf ahead of time.

- Scott


I'm sorry...has he refused to play? Because you seem to be saying it's ok for him to complain about the turf but not to refuse to play on it.

So then it should be the same for his contract. He is playing isn't he? He is scoring isn't he? Then by your own standards, it should be ok. Unless of course, you are ok with the double-standard.

You can't choose which complaint suits you and which you are not ok with.

Anyways, DeRo hasn't complained as much as he has simply implied. Us fans are a funny lot. We want to know information but when it comes from the source, we don't want to hear about it. We'd rather an insider post it on the board? :noidea:

He is unhappy with with his contract. Or actually, not with the contract, but rather with Mo's promises as to what would happen after he signed the contract. (Funny enough, not the first player or coach to have complained about this is he?) Whether you feel it's justified or not, that is the reality of the matter. We should be more concerned that the only player to have provided us with goals in our entire existence isn't entirely happy. And we should be concerned about the consistency and regularity that these types of complaints comes out of the TFC locker room.

[rocker]

What did Mo promise De Ro?

And what promises to players has Mo not kept before? I haven't been making a list.

Looking at TFC's salary bill, I can't see how players can really complain about not getting paid enough. There's almost no underpaid players on TFC.

[Roogsy]

The promises Mo makes usually has little to do with money. When it comes to players contracts, there is a whole lot more than money. Players uproot their lives and while it is necessary and expected when you are a professional athlete, it is also incumbent and expected from the organization to make things as seamless as possible. Chris Cummins' apparent unhappiness with his family situation is but one example. Other players have mentioned this too in other areas of player movement and livelihood.

[Roogsy]

And let's remember that we were the ones crying foul when the Dichio situation reared its ugly head. Most of us on the board were clamouring for more inside information.

I guess us fans are a fickle bunch.

[Hitcho]

I'm sorry...has he refused to play? Because you seem to be saying it's ok for him to complain about the turf but not to refuse to play on it.

So then it should be the same for his contract. He is playing isn't he? He is scoring isn't he? Then by your own standards, it should be ok. Unless of course, you are ok with the double-standard.

You can't choose which complaint suits you and which you are not ok with.

Anyways, DeRo hasn't complained as much as he has simply implied. Us fans are a funny lot. We want to know information but when it comes from the source, we don't want to hear about it. We'd rather an insider post it on the board? :noidea:

He is unhappy with with his contract. Or actually, not with the contract, but rather with Mo's promises as to what would happen after he signed the contract. (Funny enough, not the first player or coach to have complained about this is he?) Whether you feel it's justified or not, that is the reality of the matter. We should be more concerned that the only player to have provided us with goals in our entire existence isn't entirely happy. And we should be concerned about the consistency and regularity that these types of complaints comes out of the TFC locker room.

Blimey - you are fickle Roogs. He only retired last season - forgotten already? :D

(Cue pedantic argument re goal rates) :D:D:D

[greatwhitenorf]

Wouldn't exactly call De Ro 'forthcoming' in his answers to Dobson's beachball questions. Failed to answer a couple of simple queries and was evasive and repetitive when he bailed out on the issue of the MLS-union negotiations and where he stood.

In fact he looked tense and sounded like he was giving well-coached , pre-structured answers. Dobson tried some rather gentle follow-up questioning to get back to the labor issue, but didn't get a straight answer.

I wasn't impressed with De Ro's performance or tone.

Or his personal grooming. Who does he think he is with that semi-demi-beard - Scott Morrison?

[CretanBull]

He signed the contract that was offered to him.

What choice did he have? He was promised DP money, he went public with his trade request, the trade had been finalized, then when it came time to negociate his contract the carpet was pulled out from under him. He did sign a deal - what esle could he do at that point? - but it wasn't what was promised to him so its understandable that there's some lingering resentment. I'm sure those feelings resurfaced when JDG showed up and had a tonn of cash thrown at him. Rightly or wrongly, DeRo probably feels that he's in JDG's ballpark in terms of talent....I'd be pissed too if I thought I got screwed over in my contract negociations and then someone who I thought was acsimilar calibre player came in the door behind me got crazy money.

[JonO]

Rightly or wrongly, DeRo probably feels that he's in JDG's ballpark in terms of talent....I'd be pissed too if I thought I got screwed over in my contract negociations and then someone who I thought was acsimilar calibre player came in the door behind me got crazy money.
Regardless of the talent level, DeRo was coming from another MLS team while JDG was coming from La Liga. It's certainly not fair, but unfortunately it's life in professional sports.

If DeRo feels he was screwed by Mo, I can sympathize. If he's worried about how much someone else is making he should get over it, because that is, and always will be, beyond his control. (In my worthless opinion)

[tictoc]

I thought that MLS, since they own all of the player contracts, had to approve all DP contracts. Is it possible that DeRo was promised something that TFC was unable to deliver?

[SoccMan]

Who's Scott Morrison?

[rocker]

What choice did he have? He was promised DP money, he went public with his trade request, the trade had been finalized, then when it came time to negociate his contract the carpet was pulled out from under him. He did sign a deal - what esle could he do at that point? - but it wasn't what was promised to him so its understandable that there's some lingering resentment. I'm sure those feelings resurfaced when JDG showed up and had a tonn of cash thrown at him. Rightly or wrongly, DeRo probably feels that he's in JDG's ballpark in terms of talent....I'd be pissed too if I thought I got screwed over in my contract negociations and then someone who I thought was acsimilar calibre player came in the door behind me got crazy money.

The point is not whether DeRo has reason to be pissed.. I'm sure Nana is a bit annoyed he's a starter and bench players are making more than he is. I'm sure there are players on the team looking at others and wondering why Mo gave them so much money -- money he didn't offer them in negotiations.

I know people at work who make more money than me and aren't worth it or they have fewer qualifications, but I don't go around spouting off about it (certainly not in public).

But DeRo asked for a trade from Houston, putting Houston in a tough situation (and they got Julius James in return, who they traded less than a season later)... so TFC gave him a contract 100K more than he got at Houston. If he wanted more, he should have demanded it in the negotiations. If he felt he had to sign immediately or else, then deal with it. That's how negotiations work..you don't get every cent.

And I'd still like to know exactly what DeRo was promised and what he wants (nobody has said what it was yet).

DeRo ain't worth a million bucks in MLS terms.. no way. Freddy Montero scored more goals and made less money. Schellotto is prob taking a pay cut to stay with Columbus. There's never fairness in contracts. DeRo got 100K more to play for a team that he was dying to play for. There's no need to complain in public about this -- it knocks him down in my eyes, at least. No matter what Mo said to him (and we have NO IDEA what that was, or how it was worded, or whatever), he needs to talk to Mo about this, not vent on public TV.

[Always There]

Most of that raise was wiped out with the higher tax rate he pays here and the foreign exchange difference that has happened since.

In relative terms, he is almost at the same place as he was in Houston...a playoff team in a nicer climate with a proven and drama-free front office.

So we should also consider the fact that he didn't have to demand to come up here, he could have stayed there as well. Dragging his family up here was a sacrifice we all need to recognize.

Do you have any proof, or any numbers to back up what you're saying? Now I'm supposed to factor in the foreign exchange rate for DeRo's contract when determining if it's fair or not? Give me a break.

How do you know what goes on in Houston's front office? Nobody knew there was a problem in Toronto until they told us. You can see what Preki thinks of MLSE and TFC. He loves the organization. Is Houston a nicer climate? To you maybe, but to me I'll take being able to play a day game in the summer rather than not being able to because it's too damn hot.

People in all walks of life "drag" their families around for work. I feel no need to offer DeRo special congratulations or sympathy for doing so, especially when he returned to a hero's welcome.

Bottom line, he's a grown man. He signed the contract, so deal with it. I've got my own issues and it comes off as being whiny and obnoxious to hear a guy complaining about a contract that will pay him close to 1.5 million dollars for 3 years. Nobody's giving me tailored suits and custom coats as a perk to my job. DeRo needs to suck it up and deal with any problems he has internally.

[Pookie]

Most of that raise was wiped out with the higher tax rate he pays here and the foreign exchange difference that has happened since.

In relative terms, he is almost at the same place as he was in Houston...a playoff team in a nicer climate with a proven and drama-free front office.

So we should also consider the fact that he didn't have to demand to come up here, he could have stayed there as well. Dragging his family up here was a sacrifice we all need to recognize.

Hey Roogsy,

This may not entirely be true. His situation may not have been "wiped out" for a couple of reasons.

1. Players are paid in US dollars regardless of where they live

2. Agents of players will often advise them to keep a principal residence in the state/province/country where it is to their tax benefit to do so.

While there are many tax credits and residency rules to consider, as a general rule the player would pay income taxes within the jurisdiction where they make their principal residence.

So, Guevara for example, may not have paid any Canadian income taxes (or may have paid and claimed them back on a credit). His coin may have gone to the government of Honduras as that is where (I believe) makes his home.

I'm not sure where De Ro claimed as a principal residence when he was with Houston but his tax situation may not have changed very much if he has set up shop in the same place. If he kept ties to Canada while there, he likely was paying some form of Canadian income tax when all was said and done.

[CretanBull]

The point is not whether DeRo has reason to be pissed.. I'm sure Nana is a bit annoyed he's a starter and bench players are making more than he is. I'm sure there are players on the team looking at others and wondering why Mo gave them so much money -- money he didn't offer them in negotiations.

I know people at work who make more money than me and aren't worth it or they have fewer qualifications, but I don't go around spouting off about it (certainly not in public).

But DeRo asked for a trade from Houston, putting Houston in a tough situation (and they got Julius James in return, who they traded less than a season later)... so TFC gave him a contract 100K more than he got at Houston. If he wanted more, he should have demanded it in the negotiations. If he felt he had to sign immediately or else, then deal with it. That's how negotiations work..you don't get every cent.

And I'd still like to know exactly what DeRo was promised and what he wants (nobody has said what it was yet).

DeRo ain't worth a million bucks in MLS terms.. no way. Freddy Montero scored more goals and made less money. Schellotto is prob taking a pay cut to stay with Columbus. There's never fairness in contracts. DeRo got 100K more to play for a team that he was dying to play for. There's no need to complain in public about this -- it knocks him down in my eyes, at least. No matter what Mo said to him (and we have NO IDEA what that was, or how it was worded, or whatever), he needs to talk to Mo about this, not vent on public TV.

RE: Nana - he's getting paid what he was promised he'd get paid, the same with the others that you mentioned. In DeRo's case he isn't.

Make no mistake about it, DeRo didn't put in a trade request without first talking to TFC - they made him promises before he agreed to come here. After his trade request became public, and after the trade was announced DeRo learned that TFC couldn't deliver on the promises that they made. That left DeRo in a pretty crappy place - he couldn't go back to Houston and if he held out in his negociations with TFC and demanded a further trade etc. it would have forever ruined his reputation. He was essentially forced to sign the best deal that he could get out of TFC but it was well short of what he was promised. It's highly unlikely that had he known up front what his contract with TFC would end up being that he ever would have requested a trade in the first place - not at this point in his career anyway.

My point is that his isn't a case of an athlete signing a contract then whining when someone else gets more. It's a case of someone being promised "A" and being backed into a corner and forced to accept "B" and then salt being thrown in the wound when someone comes in the door behind him and is given "A".

If DeRo had been given what he was promised I don't think he'd give a rat's ass about what other players make - he'd live with the fact that he got what he wanted/what he thought he was worth. He was forced to settle for less, then had to sit back and see TFC offer the moon to JDG. Right or wrong, I can empathize with his situation.

[TFCRegina]

Regardless of the talent level, DeRo was coming from another MLS team while JDG was coming from La Liga. It's certainly not fair, but unfortunately it's life in professional sports.

If DeRo feels he was screwed by Mo, I can sympathize. If he's worried about how much someone else is making he should get over it, because that is, and always will be, beyond his control. (In my worthless opinion)

I think we can all sympathize. Where's that world class striker he keeps promising us? Where's that top defender?

[Carts]

Hey Roogsy,

This may not entirely be true. His situation may not have been "wiped out" for a couple of reasons.

1. Players are paid in US dollars regardless of where they live

2. Agents of players will often advise them to keep a principal residence in the state/province/country where it is to their tax benefit to do so.

While there are many tax credits and residency rules to consider, as a general rule the player would pay income taxes within the jurisdiction where they make their principal residence.

So, Guevara for example, may not have paid any Canadian income taxes (or may have paid and claimed them back on a credit). His coin may have gone to the government of Honduras as that is where (I believe) makes his home.

I'm not sure where De Ro claimed as a principal residence when he was with Houston but his tax situation may not have changed very much if he has set up shop in the same place. If he kept ties to Canada while there, he likely was paying some form of Canadian income tax when all was said and done.

That's true for multi-million dollar athletes - not those making $400k.....

$400k is good money, but its not the kind of cash where you're owning two homes 'that the government beleives to be your place of residence'...

Plus, the tax laws are much more complicated than you're making them out to be...

You can't make $10,000,000 a year, then buy a $34 shack in Cuba and pay no principle taxes in your country of business and residence - if that was the case, I'd buy a $34 shack in Cuba to avoid taxes and I don't make $400k... My shack would be right next to Kate Beckinsale & Tom Brady...

You can file for some tax releif based on your residence etc, but its far more complicated, and for it to be worth while you're looking at the millions of dollars tax bracket, not those making mid six figures...

Carts...

[Shakes McQueen]

RE: Nana - he's getting paid what he was promised he'd get paid, the same with the others that you mentioned. In DeRo's case he isn't.

Make no mistake about it, DeRo didn't put in a trade request without first talking to TFC - they made him promises before he agreed to come here. After his trade request became public, and after the trade was announced DeRo learned that TFC couldn't deliver on the promises that they made. That left DeRo in a pretty crappy place - he couldn't go back to Houston and if he held out in his negociations with TFC and demanded a further trade etc. it would have forever ruined his reputation. He was essentially forced to sign the best deal that he could get out of TFC but it was well short of what he was promised. It's highly unlikely that had he known up front what his contract with TFC would end up being that he ever would have requested a trade in the first place - not at this point in his career anyway.

My point is that his isn't a case of an athlete signing a contract then whining when someone else gets more. It's a case of someone being promised "A" and being backed into a corner and forced to accept "B" and then salt being thrown in the wound when someone comes in the door behind him and is given "A".

If DeRo had been given what he was promised I don't think he'd give a rat's ass about what other players make - he'd live with the fact that he got what he wanted/what he thought he was worth. He was forced to settle for less, then had to sit back and see TFC offer the moon to JDG. Right or wrong, I can empathize with his situation.

I think we are making a ton of assumptions about what happened in the negotiations for DeRo to come here, based on nothing but rumours, and DeRo's side of the story about what he was allegedly promised.

It has been suggested that TFC tried to give DeRo the DP designation, but that the league did not allow it, since he was an existing MLS player under a non-DP contract already, and MLS likes the DP slot to be used to import foreign talent.

Ultimately the guy got another $100k raise one year into his Houston contract, signed on the dotted line, and initially we heard nothing more about it. If he wasn't happy with the terms ultimately presented to him, he was free to refuse to sign another extension, and play out the balance of his Houson deal.

I also have a hard time believing that a professional athlete, with a lawyer, were given the "old bait and switch" after demanding a trade - which is why I have some serious questions about what exactly he was "promised". No player (or their lawyer) would demand a trade solely on "promises" - there would have to be something in writing for at least some of the stipulations. Furthermore, DeRo would have to have asked for the trade before TFC would be allowed to negotiate or even present any sort of extension to him! You can't just phone up another team's players, and make all kinds of promises to them if they ditch their club.

If he has a problem with how negotiations went, then he shouldn't have signed a contract that extended his stay here beyond what it originally would have been. Likewise, if he has a problem, he should go talk to Mo about it.

I'd love to know how a guy like Attakora (who is severely underpaid for his services) feels when he hears that DeRo is complaining to the media AGAIN, about his brand new contract that pays him 10X as much.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

That's true for multi-million dollar athletes - not those making $400k.....

$400k is good money, but its not the kind of cash where you're owning two homes 'that the government beleives to be your place of residence'...

Plus, the tax laws are much more complicated than you're making them out to be...

You can't make $10,000,000 a year, then buy a $34 shack in Cuba and pay no principle taxes in your country of business and residence - if that was the case, I'd buy a $34 shack in Cuba to avoid taxes and I don't make $400k... My shack would be right next to Kate Beckinsale & Tom Brady...

You can file for some tax releif based on your residence etc, but its far more complicated, and for it to be worth while you're looking at the millions of dollars tax bracket, not those making mid six figures...

Carts...

No one is suggesting he bought a shack - but maybe, for example, he kept the residence he already had in Texas?

- Scott

[ag futbol]

Why can't they comment on their contracts? It's one of many strategies to send messages and signals to those negotiating the terms for future contracts. Let's remember that the period in between contract signings are when the participants of these contracts create leverage for the next session. This is one way to create leverage. As long as he produces on the pitch, I don't care if he screams it from the rooftops every day. Why should we?
This is kind of where I stand on it (as long as he’s playing well). We’re not running an old boys club here. I expect our players to win and have varied opinions about everything. These guys are competitors with huge egos, so some of this stuff should be expected.

Nothing i hate more than in year 1 when we had a group of losers and people made that out to be ok because they were nice guys. They should be commended for being good human beings and then sent home, we're not running a charity here.

Imagine, a professional athlete complaining about money (this isn't new). Although i do remember Mike James saying he needed to "feed his family" and was only making 3M a season. Which prompted someone to make the classic comment "what is he feeding them, gold-plated steaks?"

[Shakes McQueen]

This is kind of where I stand on it (as long as he’s playing well). We’re not running an old boys club here. I expect our players to win and have varied opinions about everything. These guys are competitors with huge egos, so some of this stuff should be expected.

Nothing i hate more than in year 1 when we had a group of losers and people made that out to be ok because they were nice guys. They should be commended for being good human beings and then sent home, we're not running a charity here.

Imagine, a professional athlete complaining about money (this isn't new). Although i do remember Mike James saying he needed to "feed his family" and was only making 3M a season. Which prompted someone to make the classic comment "what is he feeding them, gold-plated steaks?"

You know, outside the entitled prima-donnas of top-level international football, complaining about your contract to the media is pretty rare in professional sports.

The only time you typically hear anything about a player's demands in other sports, is when negotiations are ongoing, or a player becomes a free agent. After that, it's silence - because whining to the media about it is a) unprofessional, and b) a distraction to the team.

Your time to demand what you think you're worth is during negotiations, though ultimately you likely won't get everything you want.

- Scott

[rocker]

You know, outside the entitled prima-donnas of top-level international football, complaining about your contract to the media is pretty rare in professional sports.

The only time you typically hear anything about a player's demands in other sports, is when negotiations are ongoing, or a player becomes a free agent. After that, it's silence - because whining to the media about it is a) unprofessional, and b) a distraction to the team.

Your time to demand what you think you're worth is during negotiations, though ultimately you likely won't get everything you want.

- Scott

Yup.. I agree completely. And you almost never hear a guy admitting he's not worth the money he makes when he has a bad season.

And in the end, if DeRo didn't get something he was promised, he can demand a trade (which he did from Houston, and was granted his wish).
Talking about it publically doesn't matter.. he's signed a contract so complaining about it in public isn't going to bring him another $200K or something.

I see enough people in the replacement players thread saying it's "about the badge not the players" to believe that most people wouldn't give a shit if DeRo was promised extra money. So there won't be public pressure to give him a new deal. Talking about it in public just makes him look petty to me. If TFC doesn't have the money to come through with the promise, then too bad. It's a capped league and circumstances change. Being the 9th highest paid player in the league is pretty good.

[Always There]

Why does everyone talk like they were sitting at the negotiating table with DeRo? It's fair to have an opinion on what DeRo said in the interview with Gerry Dobson, but there is way too much speculation going on about all the ins and outs of the contract, and how it all came to be.

I don't care if other athletes complain in public about their contracts. That isn't justification for it. I've lost a bit of respect for DeRo because of this.

[Pookie]

That's true for multi-million dollar athletes - not those making $400k.....

$400k is good money, but its not the kind of cash where you're owning two homes 'that the government beleives to be your place of residence'...

If you are thinking multiple mansions, no. But all it takes is a rental where you play and a regular home where you set up shop.

There are plenty of athletes and non-athletes who have more than one home. Many semi-pro Canadian hockey players are over in Europe and maintain a home here in order to keep their health benefits for family. They just rent.


Plus, the tax laws are much more complicated than you're making them out
to be...


You can't make $10,000,000 a year, then buy a $34 shack in Cuba and pay no principle taxes in your country of business and residence - if that was the case, I'd buy a $34 shack in Cuba to avoid taxes and I don't make $400k... My shack would be right next to Kate Beckinsale & Tom Brady...

True. It is complicated but the reason you can't do that is that you don't spend enough time in Cuba. Over the course of a work visa, how much time did Guevara spend in Canada? Somewhere probably in the 6-8 month range.

I'm just highlighting that it isn't automatic that De Rosario all of sudden saw his taxes jump because he plays in Canada. There could be nuances that made the tax situation moot.

Back on to the OP though, does anyone have a link to this interview?

I'd like to hear it for myself before passing judgement. I mean a player making comments about being underpaid when there is a CBA up for renegotiation isn't necessarily a selfish statement. In fact, it may be taken as a show of solidarity with players making $30k per year.

It's all in the interpretation.

[ag futbol]

You know, outside the entitled prima-donnas of top-level international football, complaining about your contract to the media is pretty rare in professional sports.

The only time you typically hear anything about a player's demands in other sports, is when negotiations are ongoing, or a player becomes a free agent. After that, it's silence - because whining to the media about it is a) unprofessional, and b) a distraction to the team.

I’d have to disagree with that emphatically. You can’t seriously be telling me that complaining about your contract is rare in professional sports.

I’ll agree, it’s not ideal for him to be talking about his contract all the time (and I wish he’s shut up) but on a it’s worth it / it’s a distraction ratio this isn’t even close. On the TFC to do list, getting Dero to be quiet about his contract is about priority 9999999999.

[Shakes McQueen]

I’d have to disagree with that emphatically. You can’t seriously be telling me that complaining about your contract is rare in professional sports.

Outside of soccer, and compared to soccer? Absolutely.

And I agree that getting him to stop talking about it is not on our priority list as a team. But like you said - I'm tired of hearing about it, and I think it's unprofessional to talk to the media about it.

- Scott

[Shway]

know link yet?
im dying to watch the interview

[VPjr]

At the end of the day, Dwayne got the money he deserves. He needs to shut his trap and get on with it.

There are no promises in businesses, just contracts and DeRo signed his. All this moaning after the fact is pointless and harmful. I hope Preki sits him down and reads him the riot act and reminds him that this broken record act of his doesn't do the team any good.

If i had to hand out a DP contract to a player on the current TFC roster, the only TFC player I'd give it to is the guy who has it (JDG). They probably overpaid but he's going to be the backbone of this team for the next 2-3 years. He's the type of player you can build your team around in MLS and he's the type of player you need to have on the roster when you have a player like Dwayne on the roster. Dwayne is a wonderful talent but I will always argue that he's not a very smart or disciplined footballer. He needs to be surrounded by solid, responsible professionals who clean up his mess. That is the type of player JDG is and the team is going to need a few more guys with Julian's mentality to make this team work well enough to snag a playoff spot in 2010.

[Brooker]

know link yet?
im dying to watch the interview

i can't find a single thing about it on sportsnet.ca

[FluSH]

Bottom line, he's a grown man. He signed the contract, so deal with it. I've got my own issues and it comes off as being whiny and obnoxious to hear a guy complaining about a contract that will pay him close to 1.5 million dollars for 3 years. Nobody's giving me tailored suits and custom coats as a perk to my job. DeRo needs to suck it up and deal with any problems he has internally.


DeRo needs to get a better agent... Frankly, I am tired of hearing these money/promise issues... it sets a bad precedence. I know everyone needs to get paid, but I want players who wish to be here, who wish to come here as opposed to what was promised to them $$$... The more money talks that come out of DeRo and the more I am going to start questioning whether DeRo is scoring for his team or for the $$$. If it's the former I might as well watch the NBA where a good portion of players love to pad their stats.

[Roogsy]

Hey Roogsy,

This may not entirely be true. His situation may not have been "wiped out" for a couple of reasons.

1. Players are paid in US dollars regardless of where they live

2. Agents of players will often advise them to keep a principal residence in the state/province/country where it is to their tax benefit to do so.

While there are many tax credits and residency rules to consider, as a general rule the player would pay income taxes within the jurisdiction where they make their principal residence.

So, Guevara for example, may not have paid any Canadian income taxes (or may have paid and claimed them back on a credit). His coin may have gone to the government of Honduras as that is where (I believe) makes his home.

I'm not sure where De Ro claimed as a principal residence when he was with Houston but his tax situation may not have changed very much if he has set up shop in the same place. If he kept ties to Canada while there, he likely was paying some form of Canadian income tax when all was said and done.

Incorrect sir.

The overriding rule here on residency is intent and the amount of time spent in the country. You can't be "advised" where to claim residency. Residency is solely determined by the government. In the case of Dwayne, unless we want him keeping his family in the US and flying back to Houston or Virginia (or wherever he has a home) on a regular basis just to save some money on taxes, the fact of the matter is that at some point the government will review the factors they use in determining residence (such as kids in school, owning a home and percentage of the year spent in the country) and simply slap the tag on DeRo regardless if he wishes to claim himself as a US resident or not.

As for being paid in US dollars, this is correct, they are all paid in U$. However, when he moved up here, all his living expenses all of a sudden became Canadian, therefore he is automatically losing money when the FX rate starts moving against him. In fact, I have calculated it to be around 25% since he signed his contract and if the bank forecasts are correct it could top out at 35%. Would you like to lose 35% of the value of your contract in relative terms? The plain fact is taking this into consideration, he would have been financially better off keeping his expenses in U$ by staying in the US.

[Roogsy]

DeRo needs to get a better agent... Frankly, I am tired of hearing these money/promise issue... it sets a bad precedence. I know everyone needs to get paid, but I want players who wish to be here, who wish to come here as opposed to what was promised to them $$$... The more money talks that come out of DeRo and the more I am going to start questioning whether DeRo is scoring for his team or for the $$$. If it's the former I might as well watch the NBA where a good portion of players love to pad their stats.

I agree about the agent thing.

As for Dwayne, listen he wants to make soccer grow in Canada and help this city succeed. But should he do it at the expense of his family and his future? Not to mention playing for someone who has shown can't be trusted? Who here likes to work for someone they don't trust? If they kept their promise to him, we wouldn't hear a peep from him. Shouldn't that be our biggest problem with this situation?

But as for this board, I love these guys that talk a big game and say DeRo better suck it up and deal with it.

Do you know how players deal with it? By leaving. He does always have that option. Then where will we be? Let's not be so arrogant as to think DeRo wouldn't leave. There are still plenty of teams in the league that will take him and his contract that produces a dozen goals and many assists, and won't make him miss the playoffs. And we will be back where we started. Because folks...JDG ain't sticking around long-term either.

[FluSH]

Do you know how players deal with it? By leaving. He does always have that option. Then where will we be? Let's not be so arrogant as to think DeRo wouldn't leave. There are still plenty of teams in the league that will take him and his contract that produces a dozen goals and many assists, and won't make him miss the playoffs. And we will be back where we started. Because folks...JDG ain't sticking around long-term either.


I agree with both points above... but this needs to be cleared to DeRo - Your stock with the supporters will go down the more you talk about money.

...and if he leaves because of money...ooooh man. Let's just say Vince Carter left for less.

-FluSH

[Always There]

Incorrect sir.

The overriding rule here on residency is intent and the amount of time spent in the country. You can't be "advised" where to claim residency. Residency is solely determined by the government. In the case of Dwayne, unless we want him keeping his family in the US and flying back to Houston or Virginia (or wherever he has a home) on a regular basis just to save some money on taxes, the fact of the matter is that at some point the government will review the factors they use in determining residence (such as kids in school, owning a home and percentage of the year spent in the country) and simply slap the tag on DeRo regardless if he wishes to claim himself as a US resident or not.

As for being paid in US dollars, this is correct, they are all paid in U$. However, when he moved up here, all his living expenses all of a sudden became Canadian, therefore he is automatically losing money when the FX rate starts moving against him. In fact, I have calculated it to be around 25% since he signed his contract and if the bank forecasts are correct it could top out at 35%. Would you like to lose 35% of the value of your contract in relative terms? The plain fact is taking this into consideration, he would have been financially better off keeping his expenses in U$ by staying in the US.

Explain your calculations. When DeRo signed the dollar was around low 80's vs. the US dollar. Today it is at 96 cents vs. the US dollar. How is that 25%? How is it going to go to 35%? Who is forecasting this? You are really simplifying things. Don't just throw out random numbers and claim them to be the bottom line.

I'm sure DeRo benefits financially from playing in Toronto outside of his contract more than he did in Houston, but that's just speculation.

In the end, none of any of this should be my concern. Nobody knows what DeRo was promised, and his claims of being promised to be the DP make no sense. The MLS themselves didn't want DeRo to be the DP and they have ultimate control.

I'm certainly not talking a big game by saying suck it up and deal with it. The man is making close to 1.5 million over 3 years and you're talking like he's making some sort of sacrafice. You're talking like Mo is a complete liar. What did Mo say to him? Maybe you were there and could fill me in.

He signed the contract. Nobody put a gun to his head. All his promises should have been in the contract. If they weren't in the contract, and he had a problem, that was the time to voice the concerns. I don't want to hear about it a year later. Anything that wasn't written in the contract he signed is completely irrelevant.

[Carts]

Explain your calculations. When DeRo signed the dollar was around low 80's vs. the US dollar. Today it is at 96 cents vs. the US dollar. How is that 25%? How is it going to go to 35%? Who is forecasting this? You are really simplifying things. Don't just throw out random numbers and claim them to be the bottom line.

I'm sure DeRo benefits financially from playing in Toronto outside of his contract more than he did in Houston, but that's just speculation.

In the end, none of any of this should be my concern. Nobody knows what DeRo was promised, and his claims of being promised to be the DP make no sense. The MLS themselves didn't want DeRo to be the DP and they have ultimate control.

I'm certainly not talking a big game by saying suck it up and deal with it. The man is making close to 1.5 million over 3 years and you're talking like he's making some sort of sacrafice. You're talking like Mo is a complete liar. What did Mo say to him? Maybe you were there and could fill me in.

He signed the contract. Nobody put a gun to his head. All his promises should have been in the contract. If they weren't in the contract, and he had a problem, that was the time to voice the concerns. I don't want to hear about it a year later. Anything that wasn't written in the contract he signed is completely irrelevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMjgHBnpeV0

[Roogsy]

Explain your calculations. When DeRo signed the dollar was around low 80's vs. the US dollar. Today it is at 96 cents vs. the US dollar. How is that 25%? How is it going to go to 35%? Who is forecasting this? You are really simplifying things. Don't just throw out random numbers and claim them to be the bottom line.

Wow...do the math yourself.

Jan 15, the C$ was at 0.79, it was even lower in December of 2008 when they started contract negotiations.

Today it's at 0.96.

It's projected to possibly go to 1.08.

At 0.96 he has lost 21.5%....sorry it's not 25%, I thought the point was the loss not whether I can quote it to the penny.

If the dollar goes to 1.08 like it's projected within the next 18 months, he loses over 36%.


I'm sure DeRo benefits financially from playing in Toronto outside of his contract more than he did in Houston, but that's just speculation.

If you're sure, then provide something to back this up since you asked me to provide backup for my claims. The truth is he has taken a hit, both in terms of external opportunities as well as sponsorship. Coming up to Canada from the US has not been lucrative, in fact it's the opposite.


I'm certainly not talking a big game by saying suck it up and deal with it. The man is making close to 1.5 million over 3 years and you're talking like he's making some sort of sacrafice. You're talking like Mo is a complete liar. What did Mo say to him? Maybe you were there and could fill me in.

If this is the attitude he is going to face in Toronto, then maybe he should have stayed in the US, where at the end of the day he would have made his money, stayed on a contending team and not had to displace his family. You guys are acting like he's lucky to get what he is getting. What I am telling you is that he could easily have stayed in Houston, stayed well compensated and not had to deal with TFC front office drama, the cold and uprooting his family. You tell me where the advantage is to DeRo to come up to Toronto? Define it. Put it down in clear concise words.

It's not money, he isn't making more here. And he is missing out on Superliga bonuses, playoff bonuses, championship bonuses. It's not profile. Let's remember this is a player who had a huge billboard of him hanging near the airport and sponsors were using him more actively, not to mention being on a championship team. It isn't comfort, he's played most of his career in warmer climates where his kids haven't had to grow up in the cold.

Please, please someone tell me where the big bonus was in DeRo coming here if it wasn't to help us, TFC, his hometown and his national team? And we're going to sit here and rag on the man after doing all that for us because he is upset promises are not being kept? I'd like to know if any of you would be so tightlipped if it happened to you.

[Phil]

Some things that need to happen.

1) CBA stuff needs to get sorted now because its screwing up negotiations and understandings.

2) Whatever the issue is, it needs to be plainly stated instead of this dance where the fans are held hostage and left guessing.

[Oldtimer]

It's unlikely that DeRo could get DP status. Not only would TFC need approval from the league FO, DPs actually need approval of the Board of Governors.

[Roogsy]

I too want this issue sorted out. I want DeRo's attention on the pitch, not on the front office.

[Always There]

Wow...do the math yourself.

Jan 15, the C$ was at 0.79, it was even lower in December of 2008 when they started contract negotiations.

Today it's at 0.96.

It's projected to possibly go to 1.08.

At 0.96 he has lost 21.5%....sorry it's not 25%, I thought the point was the loss not whether I can quote it to the penny.

If the dollar goes to 1.08 like it's projected within the next 18 months, he loses over 36%.



If you're sure, then provide something to back this up since you asked me to provide backup for my claims. The truth is he has taken a hit, both in terms of external opportunities as well as sponsorship. Coming up to Canada from the US has not been lucrative, in fact it's the opposite.



If this is the attitude he is going to face in Toronto, then maybe he should have stayed in the US, where at the end of the day he would have made his money, stayed on a contending team and not had to displace his family. You guys are acting like he's lucky to get what he is getting. What I am telling you is that he could easily have stayed in Houston, stayed well compensated and not had to deal with TFC front office drama, the cold and uprooting his family. You tell me where the advantage is to DeRo to come up to Toronto? Define it. Put it down in clear concise words.

It's not money, he isn't making more here. And he is missing out on Superliga bonuses, playoff bonuses, championship bonuses. It's not profile. Let's remember this is a player who had a huge billboard of him hanging near the airport and sponsors were using him more actively, not to mention being on a championship team. It isn't comfort, he's played most of his career in warmer climates where his kids haven't had to grow up in the cold.

Please, please someone tell me where the big bonus was in DeRo coming here if it wasn't to help us, TFC, his hometown and his national team? And we're going to sit here and rag on the man after doing all that for us because he is upset promises are not being kept? I'd like to know if any of you would be so tightlipped if it happened to you.


Okay. It was .799 on January 15th. I'd say closer to 80 than 79, but whatever.

From 80 to 96, I get 16. How do you get 21.5? What am I missing? On December 15 2008 it was .809. It didn't jump instantly either.

Your projection to 1.08 is simply a projection. He isn't a fortune 500 company. What the Canadian dollar may be in the future doesn't count against him now.

I'm about as sure of his opportunity to make more outside of TFC playing in his hometown as you are with your statistical analysis. You are using one set of numbers, I believe incorrectly, as the only numbers that count. Have you read his contract? Do you really know all the tax laws of Texas and Ontario and how they might apply?

It isn't up to any of us to define to you the advantages of DeRo coming to play here. He's the one who came to play here. I already live here, and don't play for TFC, so I'm not interested about his business decisions. As a supporter I find it discouraging to hear his repeated public complaints about his contract. That stuff should be dealt with internaly.

Nobody's "ragging" on DeRo, but the concessus is that we don't want to hear him complain about his contract. It would seem that most feel that when the contract is signed, the story is over. Promises and currency exchange issues and anything else should have been worked out then. This is the biggest point that you seem to be ignoring in favour on trying to find fault with Mo and the organization and the climate of Toronto.

[Hitcho]

Please, please someone tell me where the big bonus was in DeRo coming here if it wasn't to help us, TFC, his hometown and his national team? And we're going to sit here and rag on the man after doing all that for us because he is upset promises are not being kept? I'd like to know if any of you would be so tightlipped if it happened to you.

Bold 1 - Isn't it obvious? It's the adoring fans - just read this thread! :rolleyes:

Bold 2 - Happy about it, no. Tight lipped? I'd like to think that I would have it out with the FO and not in the press, but until you find yourself in that position who ever really knows?

[Rudi]

I'm curious as to how DeRo was allegedly offered the TFC DP slot (presumably by Mo Johnston) while still under contract to play at Houston. That's why DeRo asked for his release, right? Because he was offered a DP slot by Toronto?

If so, how was Toronto not slapped for tampering by MLS? They did it to Seattle for negotiating with Sigi Schmidt before the big coach's contract was up with Columbus (and Seattle paid with a major allocation, to the tune of a couple hundred thousand dollars), so why didn't we hear about Toronto getting fined?

[Roogsy]

Okay. It was .799 on January 15th. I'd say closer to 80 than 79, but whatever.

You forgot to take into account that this is a "midmarket" quote. The spread the banks take is generally 1-2 cents depending on where you make the exchange. So the true FX cost to him would be around 0.78 or wider making even my 21.5% quote somewhat conservative. Have you not ever changed money at the bank?


From 80 to 96, I get 16. How do you get 21.5? What am I missing? On December 15 2008 it was .809. It didn't jump instantly either.

The difference between 0.79 and 0.96 is 0.17. 0.17 divided by 0.79 is 0.21519 or 21.5%. I hope you don't use math in your line of work because this is pretty much straight forward.


Your projection to 1.08 is simply a projection. He isn't a fortune 500 company. What the Canadian dollar may be in the future doesn't count against him now.

What does being a Fortune 500 company have to do with anything? Are they the only ones affected by changing FX rates? And the 1.08 certainly applies since he is locked into a contract that takes him well past next year which means any foreign exchange movements affect him since his contract is in one currency and his new life is costing him in another. This is basic finance. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.


I'm about as sure of his opportunity to make more outside of TFC playing in his hometown as you are with your statistical analysis. You are using one set of numbers, I believe incorrectly, as the only numbers that count. Have you read his contract? Do you really know all the tax laws of Texas and Ontario and how they might apply?

I do in fact have many clients with cross-border financial interests and issues to deal with, including taxation. So yeah...I "know the tax laws" or at least the issues involved with regards to cross-border earnings.


It isn't up to any of us to define to you the advantages of DeRo coming to play here. He's the one who came to play here. I already live here, and don't play for TFC, so I'm not interested about his business decisions? As a supporter I find it discouraging to hear his repeated public complaints about his contract. That stuff should be dealt with internaly.

If you don't want to acknowledge or appreciate the sacrifice that he made, that is your choice. Some of us choose to recognize that he isn't better off here and so we don't choose to act like we're doing him some sort of favour that when he gets screwed in negotiations he should be so thankful that he here that he needs to shut up and take it.


Nobody's "ragging" on DeRo, but the concessus is that we don't want to hear him complain about his contract. It would seem that most feel that when the contract is signed, the story is over. Promises and currency exchange issues and anything else should have been worked out then. This is the biggest point that you seem to be ignoring in favour on trying to find fault with Mo and the organization and the climate of Toronto.

Don't want to hear him complain, don't watch/listen to the interview. It's as easy as that. The other option is to demand that Mo stop promising things in contract negotiations that he won't deliver. If I find fault with Mo it's because he is giving us reason to find fault with him. But ragging on our best player is exactly what you are doing, regardless if you admit it.

[Pookie]

Incorrect sir.

The overriding rule here on residency is intent and the amount of time spent in the country. You can't be "advised" where to claim residency. Residency is solely determined by the government. In the case of Dwayne, unless we want him keeping his family in the US and flying back to Houston or Virginia (or wherever he has a home) on a regular basis just to save some money on taxes, the fact of the matter is that at some point the government will review the factors they use in determining residence (such as kids in school, owning a home and percentage of the year spent in the country) and simply slap the tag on DeRo regardless if he wishes to claim himself as a US resident or not.

As for being paid in US dollars, this is correct, they are all paid in U$. However, when he moved up here, all his living expenses all of a sudden became Canadian, therefore he is automatically losing money when the FX rate starts moving against him. In fact, I have calculated it to be around 25% since he signed his contract and if the bank forecasts are correct it could top out at 35%. Would you like to lose 35% of the value of your contract in relative terms? The plain fact is taking this into consideration, he would have been financially better off keeping his expenses in U$ by staying in the US.

This is getting a little too complex here and that was never the intention.

On the basis of the assumption that his US$ paycheck doesn't go as far in Canada as it did in the US, the true basis for comparison would be the cost of living relative to where he made his home (would it not)?

I have no idea what his home situation was like nor do I know what he spent his money on.

Did he support a family or maintain ties to Canada in some way shape or form? If so, those expenses really wouldn't have changed. The exchange rate went up regardless of whether he lived in Houston and sent money back to Toronto or lives in Toronto.

There are so many factors here Roogsy it is impossible to paint a picture of the impact coming here had. For example, did he own a home in Houston? If so, what effect did the real estate crash have (if any) on the equity he had in the home? Was he able to write any of that off?

What has he done with his investments since coming here? His disposable income may have increased and if so, has he invested it? Where? How are those investments doing? Did he use it to pay down debt?

I still know that there are tax considerations that athletes (and other professionals) use. I personally used to work for a software company out of Boston and opted to stay with ties here in Canada, even though I covered the states of NY and Mass as part of my territory. (before kids). I was paid in US$ (on a 65 cent dollar) but my taxes were filed in Canada. There were no state deductions taken and I had the advice of an accountant and a lawyer within the company to walk me through the most advantageous options.

There are rules around resident aliens, non-resident aliens, temporary workers, and all kinds of nuances.

I don't mean to make this more complex than it needs to be. I'm simply suggesting that he may not have seen a decline in his income to come here. He may have though. In the end, he signed the contract with advise of his agent and that's what you have to honour.

[redtfcred]

You forgot to take into account that this is a "midmarket" quote. The spread the banks take is generally 1-2 cents depending on where you make the exchange. So the true FX cost to him would be around 0.78 or wider making even my 21.5% quote somewhat conservative. Have you not ever changed money at the bank?



The difference between 0.79 and 0.96 is 0.17. 0.17 divided by 0.79 is 0.21519 or 21.5%. I hope you don't use math in your line of work because this is pretty much straight forward.



What does being a Fortune 500 company have to do with anything? Are they the only ones affected by changing FX rates? And the 1.08 certainly applies since he is locked into a contract that takes him well past next year which means any foreign exchange movements affect him since his contract is in one currency and his new life is costing him in another. This is basic finance. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.



I do in fact have many clients with cross-border financial interests and issues to deal with, including taxation. So yeah...I "know the tax laws" or at least the issues involved with regards to cross-border earnings.



If you don't want to acknowledge or appreciate the sacrifice that he made, that is your choice. Some of us choose to recognize that he isn't better off here and so we don't choose to act like we're doing him some sort of favour that when he gets screwed in negotiations he should be so thankful that he here that he needs to shut up and take it.



Don't want to hear him complain, don't watch/listen to the interview. It's as easy as that. The other option is to demand that Mo stop promising things in contract negotiations that he won't deliver. If I find fault with Mo it's because he is giving us reason to find fault with him. But ragging on our best player is exactly what you are doing, regardless if you admit it.


I do think that this Thread is Funny in that I can't imagine pointing and counter pointing soo fucking much about Not My money ..
My point is Dero scored the Most of anyone and will score lots again this Year .. JDG gets the $$$ and DeRo must now Lump that shit and keep scoring..
Thats Life .. someone did say in this Thread Dero needs a better Agent .haha Ya think oyyy
who givesa Fuck / Cheaper Beer should be our issue / those cunts gouge us like fuck / work on that issue / going to hit bong see ya soon

[Pookie]

still looking for a link to this interview... anyone??

[Roogsy]

I don't mean to make this more complex than it needs to be. I'm simply suggesting that he may not have seen a decline in his income to come here. He may have though. In the end, he signed the contract with advise of his agent and that's what you have to honour.

Let me break this down so we don't create lengthy threads.

The residency issue for athletes is not that complex. Believe me I know. There is a list of qualifying conditions the CRA and IRS go through the determine residency and it's as easy as going through the checkmarks and a judgement is made. They've had to streamline the issue for athletes in particular because the amount of movement and the need for expediency.

As for him signing the contract, yes he should honour it and nobody here has given evidence that he is choosing not to honour it so I would think it's best to avoid this red herring of a point. Until the day comes when DeRo holds out or something, we really should be careful with how we refer to this contract issue. What we are basically demanding here is that he not make public his issues with the front office, which ironically enough is the opposite of what we were demanding from Danny, which is why I called this board fickle.

But again, I'd like to emphasize that I have a real problem with casting dispersions on DeRo by demanding he "honour his contract" as if he wasn't doing so at the moment.

[redtfcred]

Let me break this down so we don't create lengthy threads.

The residency issue for athletes is not that complex. Believe me I know. There is a list of qualifying conditions the CRA and IRS go through the determine residency and it's as easy as going through the checkmarks and a judgement is made. They've had to streamline the issue for athletes in particular because the amount of movement and the need for expediency.

As for him signing the contract, yes he should honour it and nobody here has given evidence that he is choosing not to honour it so I would think it's best to avoid this red herring of a point. Until the day comes when DeRo holds out or something, we really should be careful with how we refer to this contract issue. What we are basically demanding here is that he not make public his issues with the front office, which ironically enough is the opposite of what we were demanding from Danny, which is why I called this board fickle.

But again, I'd like to emphasize that I have a real problem with casting dispersions on DeRo by demanding he "honour his contract" as if he wasn't doing so at the moment.


I am Sure this board is Fickle / its a internet forum / if it wasn't fickle there would be an issue ???

[Carts]

still looking for a link to this interview... anyone??

Have a look on the SportsNet website, they originally aired it - if an online version exists it would be there...

Carts...

[Roogsy]

still looking for a link to this interview... anyone??

I am not sure anyone taped Soccercentral from this weekend. But you know what the funny thing is Pookie? It's not like DeRo made a huge issue of his contract. When asked about MLS contracts, he made a passing remark about how a lot of players are underpaid, some embarrassingly so (understood to be referring to players who make $30k) and others who probably deserve more (understood to mean himself).

He didn't say "I am unhappy with my contract", he didn't say "I want more money" he didn't say anything even remotely similar. He barely alluded to an issue he has with his contract and then moved on. And had Gerry not asked contracts and salaries (sorrounding the CBA), who knows if he would have said anything at all. And yet, if you read this thread, you'd think that the entire interview was about DeRo's contract. If you saw the interview, you'd wonder what the hullabaloo is about.

[rocker]

to change the subject..............I saw the light on De Ro this year.
He's a great player, hustles, seems to care. He can produce brilliance at times. On a weak team he shined.

But since I never really followed Houston that much, I didn't realize his faults... until this season.

So dont get me wrong... I looooove the guy but I take the good with the bad.

The bad:

1) he doesn't involve his teammates -- seems to think they would fail so he decides to take everything on his shoulders... but sometimes an early pass to a teammate could make stuff happen rather than going alone
2) he freelances too much (wonder how Preki will deal with him moving wherever he wants at any moment)
3) when he goes to the sideline, he almost inevitably loses the ball
4) he takes a lot of shots-- he led the team with 80 shots but 44 weren't on goal.... he'll shoot from anywhere, and more often than not, that shot goes way over the net
5) he goes offside a helluva lot, which can't always be the fault of his teammate making the pass... he led the league with 43 offsides in 28 games. Cunningham went offside less.

So forgetting his contract for a second, and promises, but I wouldn't make him a DP.

[Pookie]

Thanks for the heads up on the interview location.

Setanta is showing a replay of Soccer Central on Thursday at 9:30pm. Maybe that will be it.

Can't find an archive version on sportsnet yet.

Would like to hear it for myself.

[Hitcho]

to change the subject..............I saw the light on De Ro this year.
He's a great player, hustles, seems to care. He can produce brilliance at times. On a weak team he shined.

But since I never really followed Houston that much, I didn't realize his faults... until this season.

So dont get me wrong... I looooove the guy but I take the good with the bad.

The bad:

1) he doesn't involve his teammates -- seems to think they would fail so he decides to take everything on his shoulders... but sometimes an early pass to a teammate could make stuff happen rather than going alone
2) he freelances too much (wonder how Preki will deal with him moving wherever he wants at any moment)
3) when he goes to the sideline, he almost inevitably loses the ball
4) he takes a lot of shots-- he led the team with 80 shots but 44 weren't on goal.... he'll shoot from anywhere, and more often than not, that shot goes way over the net
5) he goes offside a helluva lot, which can't always be the fault of his teammate making the pass... he led the league with 43 offsides in 28 games. Cunningham went offside less.

So forgetting his contract for a second, and promises, but I wouldn't make him a DP.

Fair enough. A lot of this coukld be down to a lack of decent coaching and team guidance though. CUmmins didn;t seem like the strongest coach in the world (either in terms of what he wanted or enforcing it). So we may see some big differences this season, not just from De Ro, but from everyone.

Can anyone else sumamrize what was said ni the rest of the De Ro interview by the way? Even just from memory? I'd like to know, and frankly I don't give a monkey's about his salary and nor will I unless he comes out and says unequivocally "more wonga or I am off mate".

So - anyone? Quick summary? Anything interesting in there that's not money related? Something about the new coach and pitch? Any hints at trades? Did he get anything nice for Christmas? :D

[Roogsy]

to change the subject..............I saw the light on De Ro this year.
He's a great player, hustles, seems to care. He can produce brilliance at times. On a weak team he shined.

But since I never really followed Houston that much, I didn't realize his faults... until this season.

So dont get me wrong... I looooove the guy but I take the good with the bad.

The bad:

1) he doesn't involve his teammates -- seems to think they would fail so he decides to take everything on his shoulders... but sometimes an early pass to a teammate could make stuff happen rather than going alone
2) he freelances too much (wonder how Preki will deal with him moving wherever he wants at any moment)
3) when he goes to the sideline, he almost inevitably loses the ball
4) he takes a lot of shots-- he led the team with 80 shots but 44 weren't on goal.... he'll shoot from anywhere, and more often than not, that shot goes way over the net
5) he goes offside a helluva lot, which can't always be the fault of his teammate making the pass... he led the league with 43 offsides in 28 games. Cunningham went offside less.

So forgetting his contract for a second, and promises, but I wouldn't make him a DP.

I guess I have been pretty consistent on this fact, even from the first year I wanted him on TFC although I did wonder whether DP money was required. In year 1 of TFC, I would have said yes. 3 years in, I would say probably not. What fair value for DeRo is I don't know. From our perspective, he is worth more than say in Los Angeles. For us, he is basically our only consistent scoring threat on a team that hasn't had a 10 goal scorer any of our 3 years of existance.

In MLS however, you will always have players that carry some baggage when it comes to what they contribute. Guevara for example was no different. I'd be hard pressed to find any player in MLS who doesn't come with a list of cons when you are compiling a list of pros. Still, on a relative basis, you have to look at the impact a player has and I have yet to see anyone put up a claim that DeRo's impact in Toronto hasn't been significant. What that impact is worth is anyone's guess, but since we haven't had it in 3 years, I would say we are in no position to be chinzy or cheap.

[torontocelt]

to change the subject..............I saw the light on De Ro this year.
He's a great player, hustles, seems to care. He can produce brilliance at times. On a weak team he shined.

But since I never really followed Houston that much, I didn't realize his faults... until this season.

So dont get me wrong... I looooove the guy but I take the good with the bad.

The bad:

1) he doesn't involve his teammates -- seems to think they would fail so he decides to take everything on his shoulders... but sometimes an early pass to a teammate could make stuff happen rather than going alone
2) he freelances too much (wonder how Preki will deal with him moving wherever he wants at any moment)
3) when he goes to the sideline, he almost inevitably loses the ball
4) he takes a lot of shots-- he led the team with 80 shots but 44 weren't on goal.... he'll shoot from anywhere, and more often than not, that shot goes way over the net
5) he goes offside a helluva lot, which can't always be the fault of his teammate making the pass... he led the league with 43 offsides in 28 games. Cunningham went offside less.

So forgetting his contract for a second, and promises, but I wouldn't make him a DP.

1) In fairness if I had such players as Chad Barrett on my team I would probably go it alone also if I thought I had a chance of scoring. Pass it to players like Chad and odds are the move wont amount to much.

2) Who says he wasn't given a free role and allowed to drift? It probably didn't help the team much when you had Gueverra and Vitti on the same team and doing the same thing, that would be the fault of the coach in my opinion.

3) I wasn't aware that this happened a lot although some of the movement in the team by other players is crap so perhaps it would have been difficult to find a pass?

4) I would rather a player have a shot if he thought it was the best option rather than not have a shot. In saying that he has missed the target a lot and his decision making at times must have been poor.

5) 43 offsides in 28 games doesn't seem like too much to me, that is roughly 1.5 times a game. Flipo Inzagi is a great striker and he is off side tons more.. As I eluded to earlier, some of the movement, passing and awareness of his teammates is pretty poor at times and I would imagine that many of his offsides could have been avoided if he were playing with better players, I have no proof of that but that is my guess. Inzagi is offside a lot because he is constanly playing off the shoulder so he is different in that respect.

[greatwhitenorf]

Pretty much got everything I need now on De Ro except his bank balance, account number, branch transit code and the three digits on the back of his VISA card.

[torontocelt]

Pretty much got everything I need now on De Ro except his bank balance, account number, branch transit code and the three digits on the back of his VISA card.
I thought be worked out earlier that DeRo carried mastercard and not Visa?

[OneLoveOneEric]

I guess I have been pretty consistent on this fact, even from the first year I wanted him on TFC although I did wonder whether DP money was required. In year 1 of TFC, I would have said yes. 3 years in, I would say probably not. What fair value for DeRo is I don't know. From our perspective, he is worth more than say in Los Angeles. For us, he is basically our only consistent scoring threat on a team that hasn't had a 10 goal scorer any of our 3 years of existance.

In MLS however, you will always have players that carry some baggage when it comes to what they contribute. Guevara for example was no different. I'd be hard pressed to find any player in MLS who doesn't come with a list of cons when you are compiling a list of pros. Still, on a relative basis, you have to look at the impact a player has and I have yet to see anyone put up a claim that DeRo's impact in Toronto hasn't been significant. What that impact is worth is anyone's guess, but since we haven't had it in 3 years, I would say we are in no position to be chinzy or cheap.


Good analysis, IMO.
I'd also add that for me, neither of our big Canadians (DeRo and JDG) meet DP expectations.

[ExiledRed]

I am loving this thread.

I like arguing with Roogsy too, sometimes I do it for shits and giggles, other times because I feel obligated, but mostly cause he's usually wrong.

However, even Im not going to pick money, taxation and exchange rates as a point of contention. The guy prints money didnt you know? He makes more in one lunchtime than DeRo made last season. There are third world countries that owe him billions.....seriously.

I'd rather argue about swimming techniques with Michael Phelps.....or even Jaws.

[Roogsy]

Good analysis, IMO.
I'd also add that for me, neither of our big Canadians (DeRo and JDG) meet DP expectations.

JDG is a great player no doubt, but if he plays the holding mid role, is he going to really exceed expectations when compared to a player who isn't getting DP money like Shalrie Joseph? That was always in the back of my mind when they signed him for DP money. While names like Henry and Figo are being dropped for other teams, we get a really good player but one that doesn't measure up to the other DP names in the league, either already here or touted to eventually show up. It's a little disappointing.

[OneLoveOneEric]

JDG is a great player no doubt, but if he plays the holding mid role, is he going to really exceed expectations when compared to a player who isn't getting DP money like Shalrie Joseph? That was always in the back of my mind when they signed him for DP money. While names like Henry and Figo are being dropped for other teams, we get a really good player but one that doesn't measure up to the other DP names in the league, either already here or touted to eventually show up. It's a little disappointing.

More than a little disappointing for me. I know people will argue the DP doesn't equate to wins, etc. But the rush of a guy like Henry here would be amazing.
JDG just doesn't enter the same universe occupied by even a guy like Freddie Ljungberg.

[Roogsy]

I am loving this thread.

I like arguing with Roogsy too, sometimes I do it for shits and giggles, other times because I feel obligated, but mostly cause he's usually wrong.

However, even Im not going to pick money, taxation and exchange rates as a point of contention. The guy prints money didnt you know? He makes more in one lunchtime than DeRo made last season. There are third world countries that owe him billions.....seriously.

I'd rather argue about swimming techniques with Michael Phelps.....or even Jaws.

You'd have to know something about the issue to comment on it...which is why you'd rather take a shot then actually make a point related to the discussion because you know I'd tear you a new one. Some people know how to make money...others whine about the fact that they never will. I've never made money an issue on this board but you continuously do so, only bringing to the light the bitterness of your failures.

[Roogsy]

More than a little disappointing for me. I know people will argue the DP doesn't equate to wins, etc. But the rush of a guy like Henry here would be amazing.
JDG just doesn't enter the same universe occupied by even a guy like Freddie Ljungberg.


Exactly.

Seattle gets Ljunberg.
LA gets Beckham.
Columbus has/had the Argentine legend Schelotto.
Chicago has/had the Mexican legend Blanco.

We get a very good player, but one who has never been nor ever will be at the level of these players, true difference-makers.

[ExiledRed]

You'd have to know something about the issue to comment on it...which is why you'd rather take a shot then actually make a point related to the discussion because you know I'd tear you a new one. Some people know how to make money...others whine about the fact that they never will. I've never made money an issue on this board but you continuously do so, only bringing to the light the bitterness of your failures.

Oh, that one made you angry, thats funny, cause I actually was just fuckin kidding and trying to back your credibility up.

Pissing you off is a bonus though.

cheers.

[OneLoveOneEric]

Exactly.

Seattle gets Ljunberg.
LA gets Beckham.
Columbus has/had the Argentine legend Schelotto.
Chicago has/had the Mexican legend Blanco.

We get a very good player, but one who has never been nor ever will be at the level of these players, true difference-makers.

Precisely. I get pissed off every time I think of it.

[Roogsy]

I know it was one of those unbelievable rumours that had no basis or credibility, but I tell you, when someone threw up the Alessandro Del Piero idea out there as DP, I had stars in my eyes. A DP like that is what I was hoping for.

[Always There]

You forgot to take into account that this is a "midmarket" quote. The spread the banks take is generally 1-2 cents depending on where you make the exchange. So the true FX cost to him would be around 0.78 or wider making even my 21.5% quote somewhat conservative. Have you not ever changed money at the bank?



The difference between 0.79 and 0.96 is 0.17. 0.17 divided by 0.79 is 0.21519 or 21.5%. I hope you don't use math in your line of work because this is pretty much straight forward.



What does being a Fortune 500 company have to do with anything? Are they the only ones affected by changing FX rates? And the 1.08 certainly applies since he is locked into a contract that takes him well past next year which means any foreign exchange movements affect him since his contract is in one currency and his new life is costing him in another. This is basic finance. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.



I do in fact have many clients with cross-border financial interests and issues to deal with, including taxation. So yeah...I "know the tax laws" or at least the issues involved with regards to cross-border earnings.



If you don't want to acknowledge or appreciate the sacrifice that he made, that is your choice. Some of us choose to recognize that he isn't better off here and so we don't choose to act like we're doing him some sort of favour that when he gets screwed in negotiations he should be so thankful that he here that he needs to shut up and take it.



Don't want to hear him complain, don't watch/listen to the interview. It's as easy as that. The other option is to demand that Mo stop promising things in contract negotiations that he won't deliver. If I find fault with Mo it's because he is giving us reason to find fault with him. But ragging on our best player is exactly what you are doing, regardless if you admit it.


Why are you so condescending? It's frustrating that you take such a sarcastic, superior tone.

Have I ever exchanged money at the bank? Yeah, smartass, I have. In the example you use, the bank rate can be a 1 to 2 cent "spread" from the numbers we have both been using. However you only use the numbers in your favour. You lower the number at the bottom level, yet leave it unchanged at the top end. You are trying to make the number as big as you can. 25% wasn't right, so you lower it to 21.5% and call that consevative by manipulating the numbers.

Again, I'm not sure why you have to speak like such a hero. I was mixed up in how you caculated your 21.5% I was thinking that on a scale where 100 is the base figure you could calculate the percentage by simply counting the increase point for point. I realize that this would be the case over 100, but not until you get to that point. The percentage increase from 79 (I would call it 80) to 96 is indeed 21.5%. I'm not sure why you couldn't have explained it the way I did, and no, I don't use math in my line of work, but thanks for asking.

Once again, what might happen in the future has zero relevance. I also think you're simplifying things.

You're seriously telling me DeRo is making a sacrafice by getting a $100 000 raise and returning as a hero? If only I could have the opportunity to make those same sacrafices. It seems you think Houston is a far better place to play than Toronto, and even an extra 100 000 doesn't make up the difference.

So, I'm not supposed to watch interviews in case I hear DeRo complain? Just because the guy was our best player last year doesn't make everything he says and does justifiable. You call it ragging on him, I say he brought his complaint to my attention.

Once again, tell us what Mo promised him.

Why does the whole idea of DeRo signing his name on the contract not register with you? I don't get that. Everything that happens after he signs his name to a contract is irrelevant. That's why it's a contract. Both parties are agreeing to something that is set in stone. Best player or not, it's petty to take your complaints about the contract you signed to the public. Flush said it best, complain to your agent or get a new one.

Anyway, my math was wrong, but I still don't agree with your figure. You're on your high horse a bit too much for debate, so I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I still love DeRo, I just wish he'd shut it about the contract.

[ag futbol]

Exactly.

Seattle gets Ljunberg.
LA gets Beckham.
Columbus has/had the Argentine legend Schelotto.
Chicago has/had the Mexican legend Blanco.

We get a very good player, but one who has never been nor ever will be at the level of these players, true difference-makers.
Very good point, and that`s no slight on JDG.

It seems like everybody wants to naturally be a AM when he as the most fundamental level is a defensive mid with a silky skill set required to play the spot in La Liga.

The story on him at Depor was this: Incredible fitness and defensive skill set, I watched this guy pretty much single handedly derail Real and several other top teams on multiple occasions. Most fans wanted him to get forward more, but not necessarily as a play maker. Also known for shooting well over the net.

Everybody thinks back to the GC in 07 or Brazil as being vintage JDG but that`s a pretty a-typical performance from him. He`s got enough of an offensive skill set to play the spot in MLS but not as well as someone like a Blanco or Schelotto.

To me the success of JDG is really going to be down to the wide play. Without players that move well off the ball and play lots of 1-2 passes he`ll be wasted.

[Shakes McQueen]

I wouldn't call Ljungberg a "difference maker" for Seattle by any stretch.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Have I ever exchanged money at the bank? Yeah, smartass, I have. In the example you use, the bank rate can be a 1 to 2 cent "spread" from the numbers we have both been using. However you only use the numbers in your favour. You lower the number at the bottom level, yet leave it unchanged at the top end. You are trying to make the number as big as you can. 25% wasn't right, so you lower it to 21.5% and call that consevative by manipulating the numbers.

No manipulation necessary so I don't need you to imply what I was trying to do. All I did was guesstimate based on where I knew the rates were at the time and a quick mental calculation told me it was near 25% so that is the number I used to post. Did I think it was going to overshoot by 3.5%? No, nor was I sure it wasn't going to be under.

As for lowering the number at the bottom end and leaving it unchanged at the top, lets do the math (using your own 0.799 so we can stop buying into your preposterous claim that I am intentionally "fudging" the numbers).

0.799 - 0.01 = 0.789 from U$ to C$

0.96 - 0.01 = 0.95 from C$ to U$

We get 20.4%.

20.4% of a $425,750 salary is $86,853. You don't think DeRo is paying $13,147 more in taxes here than down south? That wipes out your $100,000 extra argument doesn't it?

And that is before we talk about lost endorsements and sponsorship. Lost opportunity for his wife an actress and dancer. The cost of moving. The cost of buying a place up here.

I remember guys that had to move from Toronto to London or New York, the costs of doing so were tens of thousands of dollars, but our bank reimbursed them. Nobody has ever been able to tell me, but I have not heard anywhere that the league or teams reimburse players for the cost of moving but I'd like to know for certain.

Either way, we are well into "negative" territory here with DeRo. And all that for the wonderful glory of moving to a sub .500 team that gave him the grand priviledge of missing the playoffs for the first time in his career, including all the salary bonuses that come with that, which aren't even included in the calculations above.

I was off in my 25% figure. Happy? But he amount I was off doesn't really undo the point I was making at all. People make it sounds like Dwayne came here for the money. All I am doing is wiping out that theory by a country mile. Now if you want to argue that coming here was better for his career, that he is benefitting in other ways, by all means present that information to your heart's content. What we can say is that he hasn't made more money coming to Toronto.

And as for "future" events such as expected rate movements, you can dismiss it all you like, but it is a real concern to anyone that relies on U$ income, especially when it involves a lenghty contract, whether it be a professional athlete a corporation that does business in U$. You may not be too worried but that is because it doesn't affect you...much. It does affect them a whole lot more.

[ag futbol]

Why are you so condescending? It's frustrating that you take such a sarcastic, superior tone.

Have I ever exchanged money at the bank? Yeah, smartass, I have. In the example you use, the bank rate can be a 1 to 2 cent "spread" from the numbers we have both been using. However you only use the numbers in your favour. You lower the number at the bottom level, yet leave it unchanged at the top end. You are trying to make the number as big as you can. 25% wasn't right, so you lower it to 21.5% and call that consevative by manipulating the numbers.

Clearly you don`t understand the concept of a spead. The bank takes it both ways, they are they are making a market in the currency for you to exchange from A to B, or from B to A. He`s only converting USD to CAD once, taking the singular spread is accurate. Either way it decreases his proceeds, not increases.

While the conclusions of Dero`s overall financial impact are debatable, he is right when he`s saying despite getting a pay raise, he is getting hurt by the exchange rate.

[OneLoveOneEric]

I wouldn't call Ljungberg a "difference maker" for Seattle by any stretch.

- Scott

If that makes you feel better about our poor DP choice, so be it, but I think his point is still well taken.

[Roogsy]

Clearly you don`t understand the concept of a spead. The bank takes it both ways, they are they are making a market in the currency for you to exchange from A to B, or from B to A. He`s only converting USD to CAD once, taking the singular spread is accurate.

While the conclusions of Dero`s financial impact are debatable, he is right when he`s saying despite getting a pay raise, he is getting hurt by the exchange rate.


I didn't want to get into that side of it as well, because it takes into account the assumption that is he converting twice. Kenny would have accused me of fudging again by assuming a second conversion and I simply didn't want to debate that as well. The truth is that if he converted back now, we wouldn't be subtracting the penny, we'd be ADDING the penny, pushing the loss closer to the 25% figure I represented but if he wasn't able to make the basic calculation to figure out the loss to begin with, how was I going to explain FX spreads?

But anyone who has converted money knows that when you convert money and then convert back, you pay twice the spread, the bid and the ask. Usually an FX spread can be as wide as a nickel (the fx rate today at HSBC for example is 95.602 to 99.206 or a difference of 3.6 cents which if we would have added each spread of 1.8 cents from the midmarket quote Kenny used to the calculation above would have taken the loss to 26%.)

An argument for another day. The ultimate point is that it hasn't been lucrative for him to move here so let's cut him some slack if he was hoping promises made would have been kept. For most of us, if we saw a 20% increase in the cost of living, we'd have an aneurism but apparently DeRo is supposed to be ok with it.

[Shakes McQueen]

If that makes you feel better about our poor DP choice, so be it, but I think his point is still well taken.

I like how you didn't really take issue with what I said, but instead decided to deride me for "making myself feel better', when I in no way defended or rejected our choice of DP.

I will say that the jury is still out on whether JDG will have a profound impact on our team. The six dysfunctional weeks he was with us last year can hardly be counted against him.

And I will note that Beckham also was not much of an impact player his first year in Los Angeles.

- Scott

[OneLoveOneEric]

I hear you, and take back my shitty tone. DP impact should come in several forms, two of which being on field performance, and generating excitement. For me, JDG did neither, and I'd rather have Beckham OR Ljungberg for both of those categories too.
But I admit that may just be me.

[Always There]

Figures aside, the picture you're painting is completely negative. You talk about how much it cost him to move and cost him to find a place, but then say you don't know if it cost him to move at all, or if TFC may have helped him with any expenses. Saying his wife loses money as an actress and dancer! C'mon man. By the way, Toronto is a good place for an actress and dancer. You really think he doesn't have endorsement opportunities? He's in his hometown, as a star, playing for the national soccer team in the National Soccer Stadium. He may have a career after his playing days here. You're also talking about playing for TFC like it's a bad thing. Houston won't be great forever, and we are clearly getting better. Preki raves about the organization.

He has made more money coming to Toronto. Who cares about the exchange rate? It isn't the be all and end all number. He makes $100 000 more per year in Toronto.

This talk is ridiculous. The guy signed the contract. Suddenly the exchange rate is an issue for DeRo? Give me a break. He, or his agent should have thought of that. When do you ever hear anyone athlete complain about that? I can't think of it on any occassion. I'm not saying DeRo is saying it's an issue. I'm not sure why you are.

Still waiting for the details of what Mo promised to DeRo that makes him such a bad guy.

Do you guys remember the press conference where DeRo stated what a dream come true it was to come play here? It didn't appear as if he felt he was making any great sacrafice.

Topic over for me.

[Roogsy]

I love how you dismiss every single point as being irrelevant. Once you realize the figures don't paint a pretty picture, all of a sudden they're not important. Guess what, they are to him and every other athlete.

You think it's ok for his wife to lose money and opportunities in her profession?

You speak like being in his hometown as a star overcomes all when you fail to acknowledge he was a star in Houston and San Jose and didn't have to move here to accomplish that.

Would he stop playing for Canada if he stayed down south? No. So no advantage there either.

Then you completely go against what the numbers tell you and say he is making more money in Toronto, when in fact all things considered he is not. That's like saying if I make $50k in Toronto that making $70k in Nunavut is worth it because you are "making more" when in fact, after you take all expenses considered, you are actually making less.

And DeRo is not complaining about the FX rate, it's a fact that I put out there to combat the incorrect notion that he is making more money than before. Don't put my words in his mouth. Remember that YOU are the one that asked for numbers, I simply raised the point that in real terms, the "$100,000" extra was deceiving. All of sudden you demanded numbers and when they didn't suit you, all of sudden the numbers weren't important.

Yes, DeRo wanted to be here. He loves Canada, he loves this city. And that is the point I was making. He wanted to be here, he wanted to show his devotion to the city and to the country and here we are ragging on the guy because in the process of coming here, he was provided with certain assurances that haven't come about and you're saying the guy has no place to expect them or to raise them as an issue? His desire to come here wasn't about money, he did it for us, the Canadian and TFC fan and because of that expression of support, you'd think we'd be a little more supportive of his efforts to get Mo to do what he promised to begin with. Silly me...Mo is the good guy here I forgot. :rolleyes:

So please, tell us what he is getting here that he would not have gotten had he stayed in the US? Isn't that what this boils down to in the end? Because yeah, I painted a negative picture, I raised the negative points that I believe show reason why we should cut him some slack on this issue. You seem to think he should be on his hands and knees thankful that he is getting this marvellous opportunity and I'd like to know exactly what it is that should overcome all the negative points I raised. BTW, it's the second time I ask this question with no response.

[Roogsy]

I hear you, and take back my shitty tone. DP impact should come in several forms, two of which being on field performance, and generating excitement. For me, JDG did neither, and I'd rather have Beckham OR Ljungberg for both of those categories too.
But I admit that may just be me.


That's my job. :D

[Shakes McQueen]

This talk is ridiculous. The guy signed the contract. Suddenly the exchange rate is an issue for DeRo? Give me a break. He, or his agent should have thought of that. When do you ever hear anyone athlete complain about that? I can't think of it on any occassion. I'm not saying DeRo is saying it's an issue. I'm not sure why you are.

This is the one thing that bothers me. For all of this shit about "promises by Mo" to be true, DeRo would have to have an agent with a brain the size of an apricot.

First of all, Mo wouldn't be able to even talk to DeRo about terms, until after DeRo asked for the trade (assumng he asked to be traded). You can't just present offers to players under contract to other teams. So DeRo would have requested the trade here, BEFORE any offer of the DP slot could be made.

Secondly, DeRo and his agent wouldn't agree to come here based on a promise. No agent is fucking stupid enough to fall for a bait and switch like that.

Thirdly, we are still operating under the assumption that this stuff about him being "promised" the DP slot is 100% unequivocably true, because DeRo says so, and we all love DeRo. We also distrust MLSE, and really dislike Mo. We only have one half of the story, and that half was gleaned through a few sentences uttered in public appearances.

Here's how I think it worked:
- DeRo wanted to come home, and requested a trade. Mo talked to Houston's GM about this at the Draft Combine.
- The trade was made, at which point Mo tried to lock him down to a new deal that would take him to what is likely the end of his career.
- At some point, perhaps the DP slot was offered to him as part of those negotiations.
- The league rejected him as a candidate for the DP slot, because he's a) domestic, b) currently signed to a non-DP contract, and c) because the MLS FO is a dictatorship, and they get to do what they want.
- DP slot is taken off the table, but they offer to pay him the max amount for a non-DP player instead.
- DeRo accepts the contract, and plays without complaint, right up until JDG is signed to a DP contract. DeRo doesn't like that, for any number of potential reasons.
- Suddenly statements start to be made by DeRo, in regards to possibly demanding more money, and "promises" that were made to him in negotiations.

I don't care about cost of living and all of that crap. He asked to be traded here, and he signed the contract that was offered to him. If he didn't like that, then he could have demanded a trade again, or gone public DURING NEGOTIATIONS about the fact that he was being screwed by Mo Johnston, because he had inexplicably demanded a trade based on promises from an MLS general manager. But he didn't.

DeRo had no public complaints about his contract, right up until JDG came here. My guess is he's probably annoyed that JDG is a) signed to a DP contract, and b) signed for twice as much money, when DeRo probably doesn't think he's worth twice as much.

That sounds like a far more realistic scenario, than this nonsense about underhanded skullduggery from our front office, that DeRo and his agent both fell for. Never mind that, like I said, no logical timeline would allow Mo to offer DeRo anything until AFTER DeRo requested a trade, since you can't talk to another team's players unless permission is granted (i.e. after DeRo requested the trade to Toronto!)

- Scott

[Roogsy]

I can see the above being a logical evolution of what happened except for the fact that there were inklings in late December and early January, the time period between the formal introduction of DeRo to fans where there were rumours from well placed sources that the contract negotiations had hit a snag which resulted in the delay that had people on this board (myself included) going nuts.

I find it likely that Mo, in a desperate attempt to get things going, made off-the-record promises that he would take care of DeRo after the season started or ended, who knows. But Mo was in a real difficult spot, we just ended our season poorly, the calls for his head were starting early for the first time and his reputation for signing more than just college kids needed boosting. He needed this deal to get done.

You've made some assumptions about the DP being offered and then taken off the table by the league. That is a big assumption. If that were the case, DeRo would be well aware of the facts and likely would not still be calling for this to be sorted out by TFC when in fact his issue would be with the league.

I am not sure where you think people are claiming that offers were made to DeRo before the trade request but to me this has never been an issue since I don't know the timeline of when negotiations started.

[Shakes McQueen]

I can see the above being a logical evolution of what happened except for the fact that there were inklings in late December and early January, the time period between the formal introduction of DeRo to fans where there were rumours from well placed sources that the contract negotiations had hit a snag which resulted in the delay that had people on this board (myself included) going nuts.

Yes, I remember those rumours. And if DeRo was being fucked around, that was the time to leak to the media about it. But "hit a snag" is not the same as "was lied to by Mo Johnston". Contract extension negotiations with professional athletes hit "snags" all the time.

DeRo signed his contract, and we heard not a peep more about it until JDG landed here.


I find it likely that Mo, in a desperate attempt to get things going, made off-the-record promises that he would take care of DeRo after the season started or ended, who knows. But Mo was in a real difficult spot, we just ended our season poorly, the calls for his head were starting early for the first time and his reputation for signing more than just college kids needed boosting. He needed this deal to get done.

This is just as big of an assumption as the assumption of mine you point out below. The reality is that we have no idea what happened in those negotiations.


I am not sure where you think people are claiming that offers were made to DeRo before the trade request but to me this has never been an issue since I don't know the timeline of when negotiations started.

Some people are implying that DeRo essentially requested a trade, and came here based on promises made by Mo, My point is that this makes no sense in a logical timeline.

Whether a 'snag" was hit in negotiations was irrelevant, because DeRo ultimately chose to sign a contract. If he felt he was being screwed, then like I said, that was the time to demand a trade, or leak to the media about what was happening, or simply play out his existing deal (rather than signing an extension with us!).

And again - I still find it highly interesting that no issues were raised publicly until JDG came here on a DP contract.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

And again - I still find it highly interesting that no issues were raised publicly until JDG came here on a DP contract.

Which in my opinion does more to lend credence to the theory that the DP slot was promised to him but upon seeing it used elsewhere created the conflict. Just my speculation.

[ag futbol]

I still love DeRo, I just wish he'd shut it about the contract.
Pretty much the theme of this thread.

The only reason this one won`t die is because there is actual debate. We can only beat the Nick Garcia pinata for so long.

[Whoop]

I agree with both points above... but this needs to be cleared to DeRo - Your stock with the supporters will go down the more you talk about money.

...and if he leaves because of money...ooooh man. Let's just say Vince Carter left for less.

-FluSH

While I learned more about the exchange rate and players' income tax, this is the best point made in the thread.

Regardless of what happened behind closed doors in terms of contracts and negotiations, you keep it behind closed doors. Bitching about it in public is not a good way to win support.

[Rudi]

Some people are implying that DeRo essentially requested a trade, and came here based on promises made by Mo, My point is that this makes no sense in a logical timeline.
This is what I wondered about a few pages ago.

There's no way he could have been promised anything by TFC until after Houston traded him to Toronto. And even at that point, TFC was under zero obligation to rework a contract that still had DeRo under lock-and-key for another three years.

The only logical timeline goes as follows:

- DeRo requests a trade to Toronto
- Houston grants that trade, for some reason accepting Julius James in return as fair value for their franchise player
- DeRo and Toronto spend the next five to six weeks hammering out a new deal, despite DeRo having signed a new 4-year contract only a year previous
- DeRo is formally introduced to Toronto media as a TFC player in January
- Season starts, all sides are presumably happy
- JDG rumours start up in July
- Almost immediately, insiders tell of rumblings that DeRo is not happy that TFC is considering JDG as their DP
- etc.

Something just doesn't add up here. Unfortunately, we'll never have enough information of the inner workings of the DeRo deal to make a fair judgment, IMO.

[Shakes McQueen]

Regardless of what happened behind closed doors in terms of contracts and negotiations, you keep it behind closed doors. Bitching about it in public is not a good way to win support.

And that was my entire point, before this got all crazy talking about tax issues and stuff.

You signed the contract you negotiated - now be quiet about it and play, or take it to the appropriate people behind closed doors. Complaining about it publicly is unbecoming.

- Scott

[Whoop]

I still stay you can tell a player's character on how he performs on the pitch...

[Whoop]

And that was my entire point, before this got all crazy talking about tax issues and stuff.

You signed the contract you negotiated - now be quiet about it and play, or take it to the appropriate people behind closed doors. Complaining about it publicly is unbecoming.

- Scott

Exactly.

Still don't know how it's "sucking it up". Bitch behind closed doors.

The only reason you're bitching in public is to gain support and when it's about money, you're not going to get public support.

Flush is right, he needs to get a new agent or some new PR people.

[Pookie]

Hate to:deadhorse:here on the issue of whether his income dropped but there are plenty of factors that I think make this argument (for or against) moot considering we don't have copies of his tax returns. For example, from the National Post


4. Careful tax planning can make a huge difference. For most people, taxes are their single largest expense. This is especially true for athletes at the top of their game. The multiple filing requirements of a professional cross-border athlete can make tax planning complex. An athlete’s country of residence can dramatically impact the overall taxes paid. Many Canadian residents take advantage of significant tax savings by setting up a Retirement Compensation Arrangement (RCA). Players who are married or have families can use income splitting tax strategies such as spousal loans and family trusts to reduce tax.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/wealthyboomer/archive/2009/06/26/even-young-millionaires-on-skate-need-to-worry-about-financial-planning.aspx#ixzz0cOtnHQOd (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/wealthyboomer/archive/2009/06/26/even-young-millionaires-on-skate-need-to-worry-about-financial-planning.aspx#ixzz0cOtnHQOd)

With all of that said, as someone who hasn't heard the interview (and doesn't appear that I'm alone), I think judgement on his quoted comments is a little over the top.

It is very plausible, with a pending CBA negotitation, that a player speaking out about being underpaid isn't necessarily a selfish statement.

[FluSH]

This thread needs Sonny or BritChat to comment on... then it will reach legendary status.

[habstfc]

So some of you guys are disappointed that JDG hasn't lived up to expectations and have even suggested he isn't in the same league as Blanco or Beckham or Ljunberg?? First of all he IS better than all of the others mentioned in my opinion. beckham has been a collossal flop, what exactly has he done for this league other than that initial PR when he first came on the scene in that first season. He's more interested flying to Italy trying to relive his past gloryies with AC Milan. Ljunberg has been really good but you can't compare any of those players with JDG as they are all offensive minded wing players and de guzman is a defensive midfielder. It's quite apparent why he was brought in here and that is to settle down an overwhelmed tfc team defensively. How many games has the guy actually played in 7, 8? This year he'll show just what the fuss was all about with a full season to show his stuff. The last 2 games when I saw him play live in person he was easily the most skilled player I've ever seen in this league. The guys is silky smooth on the ball in every aspect especially passing. Some of things said in here are quite funny and it's apparent alot in here are thinking emotionally rather than logically with some of the comments. I'm not saying the beckhams, blancos and Ljunbergs aren't quality players but they're all past their prime and don't really have much left while JDG is still in the prime of his career. I'm not the only one with these opinions my father in-law a long time Notts Forrest fan said the same things when he first saw him play and this is a 60 yr old who has seen some of the finest footballer of the past 50 years.

As far as dero goes I have not heard the interview so It's kind of ridiculous to comment on something I know nothing about.

I think most players in mls would jump at the chance to play here, tax laws or no tax laws. Playing in front of easily the most knowledgable soccer fans in north america.and fans who actually know the game goes a long way with most athletes.

[Carts]

So some of you guys are disappointed that JDG hasn't lived up to expectations and have even suggested he isn't in the same league as Blanco or Beckham or Ljunberg?? First of all he IS better than all of the others mentioned in my opinion....Ljunberg has been really good but you can't compare any of those players with JDG as they are all offensive minded wing players and de guzman is a defensive midfielder.

Ah, in your first sentence you says JDG "is better" then Ljungdberg - then you say can't compare him to JDG b/c they play different positions...

So which one is it...?

In your opinion, is JDG better than Ljungberg, or in your opinion you can't compare them b/c they play completely different positions (offence/defence etc)...?

You can't really have both...

Carts...

[Roogsy]

Hate to:deadhorse:here on the issue of whether his income dropped but there are plenty of factors that I think make this argument (for or against) moot considering we don't have copies of his tax returns. For example, from the National Post


4. Careful tax planning can make a huge difference. For most people, taxes are their single largest expense. This is especially true for athletes at the top of their game. The multiple filing requirements of a professional cross-border athlete can make tax planning complex. An athlete’s country of residence can dramatically impact the overall taxes paid. Many Canadian residents take advantage of significant tax savings by setting up a Retirement Compensation Arrangement (RCA). Players who are married or have families can use income splitting tax strategies such as spousal loans and family trusts to reduce tax.


Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/wealthyboomer/archive/2009/06/26/even-young-millionaires-on-skate-need-to-worry-about-financial-planning.aspx#ixzz0cOtnHQOd (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/wealthyboomer/archive/2009/06/26/even-young-millionaires-on-skate-need-to-worry-about-financial-planning.aspx#ixzz0cOtnHQOd)


With all of that said, as someone who hasn't heard the interview (and doesn't appear that I'm alone), I think judgement on his quoted comments is a little over the top.


It is very plausible, with a pending CBA negotitation, that a player speaking out about being underpaid isn't necessarily a selfish statement.


You speak my language Pookie.

Doing what I do, I am a firm advocate of tax mitigation strategies. RCAs, trust structures etc. There is much that can be done to mitigate the effects of the traditionally higher salaries of professional athletes.

A couple of problems with this.

1) You'd be shocked...SHOCKED how many professional athletes in many different sports manage their money poorly. I mean, you think you know? And yet I will promise you it's worse. They literally give money away. Governments must love athletes. There are some however that see the value in proper financial planning and it's these guys that wind up retiring better than the others. In fact, sometimes it's guys that make less that wind up with more in the long-run.

2) Different strategies sometimes cost money to setup. RCAs, pension arrangements, trusts and the advice and administration that goes with them etc. Sometimes, the cost is prohibitive when you're not an athlete that makes 7 figures.

Still...if an athlete has a listening ear and good advice, he certainly can make his salary go a long way. The problem? Many of these guys have poor advisors and legal representation.

[Ryan1984]

here is the interview


http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2010/01/19/derosario_interview_soccercentral/

[Roogsy]

Nice. Thanks Ryan.

All this concern over a 9 word statement by DeRo. "I don't think I'm getting paid what I deserve." That's it. Nothing more. That is barely news. And yet he can't even say that much without people jumping all over him. Maybe he shouldn't grant interviews at all?

[HOGAN]

De Rosario is the best player on this team...top 10 in the league.

[Carts]

De Rosario is the best player on this team...top 10 in the league.

And remember........ "Hogan Knows Best!"

Carts...

[HOGAN]

And remember........ "Hogan Knows Best!"

Carts...

Well you know something else brother, De Rosario is one of the classiest gentlemen this league has to offer...he's an ambassador for the sport of soccer in this country and never one to turn away fans looking for a picture or autograph.

If he feels he isn't being adequately compensated, he's telling the truth.

Brother.

-HOGAN

[FluSH]

Well you know something else brother, De Rosario is one of the classiest gentlemen this league has to offer...he's an ambassador for the sport of soccer in this country and never one to turn away fans looking for a picture or autograph.

If he feels he isn't being adequately compensated, he's telling the truth.

Brother.

-HOGAN

CLASSIC!

/threadover

[Always There]

Nice. Thanks Ryan.

All this concern over a 9 word statement by DeRo. "I don't think I'm getting paid what I deserve." That's it. Nothing more. That is barely news. And yet he can't even say that much without people jumping all over him. Maybe he shouldn't grant interviews at all?


It obviously meant something to people on this board.

You can't judge the impact of a sentence by the amount of words used. That's just silly. Part of the reason why it bothered people is because this isn't the first time this issue has come up.

Without getting into tax breaks, the exchange rate and what DeRo's wife does for a living, I can't understand why you are so staunchly defending DeRo to the point where you feel he is above any criticism at all. It doesn't mean people suddenly hate him. People are just disappointed in what he had to say. Of all the comments made, I don't think too many are all that malicious. Torontonians have a history of not liking it when athletes complain about their contracts, because it never leads to anything good.

Just because he was our best player last year doesn't mean he's above criticism. He should continue to give interviews, but he should be prepared to answer for what he says. In this instance, people are venting about it in the off season on a internet forum. No big deal. I really don't think DeRo would care anyway.

You never did tell us what the promises were that Mo reneged on. Care to fill us in?

[rocker]

"I don't think I'm getting paid what I deserve."

I disagree with that statement.

9th best paid player in the league. He's paid enough in the MLS context (if that context changes, then give him more.. but in 2009 he was well compensated in MLS.. Schellotto just took a pay cut...). If we have to get a DP slot to keep him happy with more $$$$ I'll be pissed.

[Roogsy]

It obviously meant something to people on this board.

You can't judge the impact of a sentence by the amount of words used. That's just silly. Part of the reason why it bothered people is because this isn't the first time this issue has come up.

Without getting into tax breaks, the exchange rate and what DeRo's wife does for a living, I can't understand why you are so staunchly defending DeRo to the point where you feel he is above any criticism at all. It doesn't mean people suddenly hate him. People are just disappointed in what he had to say. Of all the comments made, I don't think too many are all that malicious. Torontonians have a history of not liking it when athletes complain about their contracts, because it never leads to anything good.

Just because he was our best player last year doesn't mean he's above criticism. He should continue to give interviews, but he should be prepared to answer for what he says. In this instance, people are venting about it in the off season on a internet forum. No big deal. I really don't think DeRo would care anyway.

You never did tell us what the promises were that Mo reneged on. Care to fill us in?

Nope.

And I thought you were done with this thread? Shoot...you even said you were done with this board! :lol:

[Always There]

Nope.

And I thought you were done with this thread? Shoot...you even said you were done with this board! :lol:

Well, I was annoyed but changed my mind. I think I said so already.

I checked back in a few times, and felt like making another comment seeing as that you continue to chastise people for being critical of DeRo.

I thought I might be able to get the long lost answer to my question from the beginning. What were these promises that Mo broke that justify DeRo publicly venting his frustrations at the contract he signed? This was pretty much the major point you were making, until you could talk about finances, which were actually irrelevant.

Until you got sidetracked with exchange rates now vs. the future and the cost of living and DeRo's wife's acting career (with somewhat inflated numbers and high end predictions for the future), you were painting Mo as a liar who broke his promises to DeRo. You never could tell anyone what it was Mo had done or said. All I wanted was proof of your numbers, which ended up being slightly off.

You always speak as if from a pulpit, and everyone should take your word as gospel. I like proof and examples when people are making a point. All you ever have is attitude, and that doesn't really cut it.

Nine words or not, what DeRo said bothered people. The point of contention with supporters is that he signed the contract. If he had issues, they should have been resolved before that. We all want DeRo on TFC, but we want a guy who is happy to be here. Complaining about your contract in public is never good. It can only hurt the team, not help it.

Now, since you're not going to respond with anything other than "nope" when asked to prove the point you're making, I guess I am done with this thread for a while, or at least with your condescending posts.

[Roogsy]

Finances are irrelevant in a discussion about DeRo complaining about the level he is getting paid? That is precious. Now you know why I don't want to expound on any more topics only to have them dismissed as "irrelevant". :rolleyes:

[Whoop]

Rule of thumb for most athletes: Don't bitch about your salary.

It's not like he's making $32K. He is one of the better compensated players in the MLS.

/end

[Always There]

Finances are irrelevant in a discussion about DeRo complaining about the level he is getting paid? That is precious. Now you know why I don't want to expound on any more topics only to have them dismissed as "irrelevant". :rolleyes:


It's shocking how much sarcasm you can fit into one little paragraph.

Once again, you can't address the issue. You'd just rather say something cute. I'm not dismissing things that don't matter.

I'll explain it one last time, and then truly leave you to say whatever sarcastic comment that makes you feel like you've saved face.

Because DeRo signed his name to a contract the finances you are discussing, such as the exchange rate a year to 2 years (your projections) after the signing, are irrelevant. All of it is irrelevant. The cost of living, the exchange rate, the climate, DeRo's wife's acting career, the endorsements, how much it cost him to move. All of it doesn't mean anything because he agreed to whatever he agreed to when he put pen to paper. These are some of the points you were making.

He signed the contract. End of story.

You claim Mo broke a promise in some way which justifies everything, yet you don't seem to have any proof of that or can even say what the promises were.

The only person connected to this that is saying that any of the finances that you are discussing matters is you.

Okay. Have at it.

[Roogsy]

I never denied his having signed a contract nor that he has to honour it. Your implying otherwise is a weak effort to discredit me.

You asked a question about numbers, I gave it to you and now you call the entire discussion irrelevant. That's silly and I am done with this conversation. Wasting my time expanding this conversation when you will likely pull the same shenanigans again is not good use of my time. Unlike you, when I say I am done, I mean it so this is my last post in this thread.

[Parkdale]

Rule of thumb for most athletes: Don't bitch about your salary.




let's leave it at that.

thanks whoopee.

[Section 117]

From my understanding he was told by Mo that he would be the highest paid palyer on TFC. But ala Cooper incident MLS does not want to give DP money to exsisting players in the MLS unless they were grandfather in ala Ladycakes.

I can see Dero's point as he is the unquestioned leader of this team and now you give his buddy who will have less of a statistical impact on the team 3 million would?

But at the same time players make $32K what is he compalining about??? At the end of the day he got a raise to come to TO period. If you wanted more money should have gone to Europe...
Instead of playing in the MLS.

I want to state I think Dero is top ten player in the MLS, but he does have major flaws in his game and this is why he is here and not in Europe

[Beach_Red]

Rule of thumb for most athletes: Don't bitch about your salary.

It's not like he's making $32K. He is one of the better compensated players in the MLS.

/end


Hey, he bitched about the turf and now we're getting grass. Maybe this will get the salary cap raised.

Okay, I'm kidding, but that's really at the root of all this. MLS needs to get this CBA worked out and they need to raise the cap.

[FluSH]

I want to state I think Dero is top ten player in the MLS, but he does have major flaws in his game and this is why he is here and not in Europe

These are my sentiments as well...

[Whoop]

Hey, he bitched about the turf and now we're getting grass. Maybe this will get the salary cap raised.

Okay, I'm kidding, but that's really at the root of all this. MLS needs to get this CBA worked out and they need to raise the cap.

See if had said, "WE don't think WE'RE getting paid what WE deserve" that would be different.

But he alone isn't going to be the guy to get the salary cap raised. And even if it was raised, what's he looking to get?

[Section 117]

.

I want to state I think Dero is top ten player in the MLS, but he does have major flaws in his game and this is why he is here and not in Europe


These are my sentiments as well...


I have taken a lot of abuse for that statement.... He is a selective passer of the ball, holds the ball to long, and looses possession way too much. He is a striker and not a midfielder. This is why he plays in the MLS.

Overall a great guy off the pitch I have spoken to him on several occasions. On the pitch he is the perfect MLS player

[Parkdale]

But ala Cooper incident MLS does not want to give DP money to exsisting players in the MLS unless they were grandfather in ala Ladycakes.


there's no one more deserving of the 'grandfathering' in the league than DeRo. IMO.


If they can justify the break for Landycakes, they should be able to justify it for the leagues All-Time MVP.

[Section 117]

there's no one more deserving of the 'grandfathering' in the league than DeRo. IMO.


If they can justify the break for Landycakes, they should be able to justify it for the leagues All-Time MVP.

I agree, but to be grandfathered in to this he would have already be making that money in the first palce. I am curious if Dero was complaining about his salary before he signed the extension in Houston prior to be traded to TFC

[Steve]

We get 20.4%.

20.4% of a $425,750 salary is $86,853. You don't think DeRo is paying $13,147 more in taxes here than down south? That wipes out your $100,000 extra argument doesn't it?



Come on Roogsy, you know better than that. He lost 20.4% based on the value he negotiated, NOT based on his real world salary. In order to do any kind of calculation like that you would need to know cost of living difference between Houston and Toronto, then work from there. Actually, that's not even the case because you'd also need to know how much he was spending per year vs how much he was investing. Anything he invests has exactly the same value here as it does there (as he can invest in American dollars without ever making an exchange). So, of any difference he has that is invested, that's a real $100k pay increase.

Though, that being said, I'm not going to get into the argument of "he should/shouldn't be happy". There are way too many variables, I just wanted to point out that your calculation of $86k was too simplistic to describe reality.

[Always There]

I never denied his having signed a contract nor that he has to honour it. Your implying otherwise is a weak effort to discredit me.

You asked a question about numbers, I gave it to you and now you call the entire discussion irrelevant. That's silly and I am done with this conversation. Wasting my time expanding this conversation when you will likely pull the same shenanigans again is not good use of my time. Unlike you, when I say I am done, I mean it so this is my last post in this thread.

I'm going to leave it, but I can't help to correct you. It's just hard to let it go when you say such strange things, and say them with such arrogant certainty.

You can say smartass things, but make sure you comprehend what it is you're being smartass about.

I never once implied that you denied DeRo signed a contract. How you could ever come to that conclusion is beyond me. How could you possibly think that's what I was saying? It's incredible. I mean, I'm flabbergasted that you responded with that statement.

My point, which I've made clear since the get go, is that once DeRo signs on the dotted line all his concerns should have been met. All the numbers that you tossed around (which I asked for proof of because your numbers seemed, and were, high) after the fact, mean nothing. All I wanted was some sort of logical reason as to how you came up with those numbers. That's it.

I wasn't hung up on your numbers, you were. I just wanted to know how you calculated them. I told you then that you were simplifying things and you seemed to be trying to stretch your numbers, which you were. In the end your numbers are meaningless and only an issue to you. It's not silly to say all of your numbers are irrelevant. They are.

Talking to you is crazy. I won't respond, unless you twist what I say again.

[torontocelt]

Spoke to DeRo last night, turns out some guy had spliced some of the tape together to make it seem as though he was complaining about his wages, turns out he never said anything. Looks like we can close this thread now mods.

I also asked him about his wives earnings now she is in Toronto and it looks as if she lost only $24 over the course of the time she has spent here. He did say that she is pretty pissed as Subway has more $5 foot longs in the US but as DeRo said, dem da breaks.

[Redcoe15]

Spoke to DeRo last night, turns out some guy had spliced some of the tape together to make it seem as though he was complaining about his wages, turns out he never said anything. Looks like we can close this thread now mods.

I also asked him about his wives earnings now she is in Toronto and it looks as if she lost only $24 over the course of the time she has spent here. He did say that she is pretty pissed as Subway has more $5 foot longs in the US but as DeRo said, dem da breaks.
At least they're better quality here than in the States, IMO. I had a Subway Club in Bay City, Michigan once and it tasted like fish. I'm very grateful my town of over 2,000 has a Subway inside the local Mac's store.

[ag futbol]

I have taken a lot of abuse for that statement.... He is a selective passer of the ball, holds the ball to long, and looses possession way too much. He is a striker and not a midfielder.

Who also is convinced he is a midfielder despite being a forward :facepalm: Good thing we tricked him last year into being a "really advanced midfielder".

[torontocelt]

Who also is convinced he is a midfielder despite being a forward :facepalm: Good thing we tricked him last year into being a "really advanced midfielder".

I would describe him as an attacking midfielder more than a forward, for what it is worth according to the official TFC web page he is labeled a midfielder, this is also the case with his wiki page, his espn page, his Houston Dynamo page and basically every other page I have seen for him on a quick internet search.

I see him as basically the same type of player as a Frank Lampard although obviously he is not as good. He is out of the same mold, he is a goal scoring attacking midfielder.

Just to clarify I would consider Wayne Rooney as a forward.

I would consider Michael Owen, Alan Shearer, Ian Rush etc as all being strikers.

[ilikemusic]

I saw the first bit of the headline and was hoping it was 'DeRo 1-on-1 with Gerry Dee'.

I am disappointed. :(

[jabbronies]

To be honest, it sounds like Dero was commenting on his salary from an overall soccer world vs. MLS percpective.