Dust2
12-30-2009, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by soundersFCfan http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19570543#post19570543)
Ok, it's getting to crunch time. What would be the optimal CBA, cap structure and DP rules to reward players fairly, improve the game, and keep the league growing viably?Some replies:
Originally Posted by Sounder http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19571891#post19571891)
2.5 cap, with a soft cap of 2 for a total of 4.5. 2 DPs first 500K 2nd is 300. Max salary of 550K. Teams do not retain rights after a player is released or completes his contract. Players can sign with a different MLS team if they have completed their contract. Contracts are year to year, can not release a player mid season! League sets minimum on flights and lodging, but team can go above and beyond if they want. Players keep their 10% of transfer fee!!!
This should work. Owners aren't in it for really anymore than they are now. However they have the option of spending more if they wish. None of the teams will be that apart from each other so there should be some parity still left.
Originally Posted by Yoshou http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19572725#post19572725)
Hmm.. How about:
- 24 senior roster spots and 4 developmental players
- 50k minimum salary for senior players, 30k minimum for developmental players unless they make 18 man roster, then they get senior minimum for that week.
- $3 million hard cap, but adjustable year to year to whatever percentage of league income $3 million per team equates to (income goes up, salary cap goes up. Income goes down, salary cap goes down).
- Income includes ticket sales, game day concessions, merchandising, friendlies, etc.
- First $50k for developmental players don't count against the salary cap
- 2 DP spots, first DP is a $400k hit, and second DP is a $325k hit
- Reserve clause is eliminated
- Players keep their portion of transfer fees
Originally Posted by edwardgr http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19580131#post19580131)
I think one way the owners can make the players proposal work is to get a long guaranteed CBA. So the owners can say fine you want unrestricted movement, we want say ten years of labor peace.
22 Senior Spots, and 6-8 reserve spots. Reinstitute reserve league or allow direct ownership of PDL Pro side (or maybe a joint reserve league with the new NASL) thus creating a reserve team playing at a lower level.
Teams may charter flights at their own expense. League will charter flights for teams in international play.
I have been thinking that a 2.5m cap with NBA style rules for re-signing your own players would be appropriate. Any overage results in a $2:$1 luxury tax.
I also think that their needs to be 2-3 salary cap exempt spots (DPs today), where the player can be paid market value, these exempt spots are not transferrable. These spots would also be subject to X% luxury tax, where X is variable based on the pay for the exempt player. This would probably start at $2:$1 and escalate to as much as $1:$3. The idea being that sure if Messi were interested in playing for NY for $20m a year the Red Bulls could sign that contract, but they would have to contribute $60m. The luxury tax is not distributed to team paying less salary, or with less revenue, but rather to a central league fund for advertising, and as emergency funds to take over and operate a team.
Give the players guaranteed contracts through the xfer window for being on the roster opening day, and through the season when the xfer window closes. Players could still be released at any time, but are guaranteed at least half their contract. To further prevent abuse of this said players salary counts against the cap for the full season.
Restricted FA after say 3-4 years, and unrestricted after say 6-7 years of service. In restricted FA the team signing the restricted FA would have to compensate the team losing the FA, and the team could retain the FA by matching and adding 10% annual value to the offerred contract.
Minimum salaries should start at at least 50k.
Obviously I am not a contract negotiator, but I think something that skews slightly in the players favor, but with a long time guarantee to protect the owners could get things done. The biggest expense in my plan I believe is the return of the reserve league. But if you allow the teams to either create a regional reserve league with the NASL clubs, or join the existing PDL structure you can easily cut down those costs. The owners are not really on the hook for more salary initially, particularly if the service time for Free Agency starts with the new contract or is somehow prorated at a 3:1 or 2:1 exchange. Teams would not be obligated to charter flights, or sign Cap Exempt players. There are probably major items I am over looking as well.
Originally Posted by pc4th http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19583555#post19583555)
I'm more in favor of a NBA-style soft cap. NBA installed it in the late 1980 and it did wonder for the league growth.
Assume that MLS will increase the cap by $0.5 mil for 2010:
Salary cap at around $2.8 mil (league pays).
Luxury tax ($1 penalty for $1 over) starts at $3 mil.
Teams under the $3 mil tax threshold will receive luxury tax revenue. This revenue can only be used toward infrastructure improvement, youth development/academies, community outreach programs.
Originally Posted by triplet1
I think it would be easy to do actually because the teams already send a third of their gate receipts to the league, and presumably that is audited now. It isn't necessary to look at thier "profitability" beyond that to make this work.
I would simply modify how the cap was calculated. After taking a cut for the league, divide the national TV money and national sponsorship money in equal shares, and let each team spend half of the gate receipts it sends to the league.
So a team's cap number would be the sum of:
(a) it's pro-rata share of the national TV money, plus
(b) it's pro-rata share of the national sponsorship money, plus
(c) half of the gate receipts it contributed to the league the prior year.
Two-thirds of the cap number (based on the TV money and sponsorship money) would be identical for every team, but the final third would provide a modest reward teams that market effectively and sell tickets. It's also self funding -- new cash isn't needed to make it work.
-------------------------------------------------------------
MLS single entity and revenue/expense model:
Posted by triplet1:
I know we've plowed this ground before, but let's remember the structure of MLS here because it always seems to surprise some people. Investor/Operators are just that: (1) they each have invested in the corporation MLS, LLC -- what we call the league -- from which they have the right to dividends on their shares and (2) they have the right to operate a team wholly owned by MLS, LLC. (There is no 51% rule nor are the teams jointly owned, the I/Os form their own corporate entities to operate the "team", which is owned by the league. If anyone still doubts it, look up the definition of "Team Operator" in the CBA.) The operating deal is pretty simple, the I/Os absorb most of the cost (with the important exception of the players) and get to keep more of the revenue, but they must send 30% of their ticket revenue to MLS, LLC.
Put that way, where does MLS, LLC make the most money? Simple, in markets where it has the highest ticket revenues. The only place we have a pretty solid number is Columbus, where the Columbus Dispatch reported last year that the Crew budgeted about $200,000 in ticket revenue per game, which would mean $60,000 per game for MLS, LLC, or $900,000 per year. Even if they draw the same number of people in another market, if they have higher ticket prices, MLS, LLC makes more money from them than in Columbus. And if a team both draws a lot of people and has high ticket prices, well, that's pure gold for MLS, LLC. For example, if Seattle's average ticket price is $30, at 30,000 a game they pay over $4 million a year to MLS, LLC -- four times what they got from the Crew.
Again, we don't have all the data, but under the current formula, as a league clearly some markets are much more profitable for MLS, LLC than others even though at times it may be counter-intuitive. DC United, for example, may not be profitable to its I/Os because of its stadium lease, but that's not really a concern for MLS, LLC because it doesn't cost them anything -- as long as DC United sells a lot of tickets at a higher price than average and forks over 30% of that cash to the league, it is a good market for MLS, LLC.
Ok, it's getting to crunch time. What would be the optimal CBA, cap structure and DP rules to reward players fairly, improve the game, and keep the league growing viably?Some replies:
Originally Posted by Sounder http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19571891#post19571891)
2.5 cap, with a soft cap of 2 for a total of 4.5. 2 DPs first 500K 2nd is 300. Max salary of 550K. Teams do not retain rights after a player is released or completes his contract. Players can sign with a different MLS team if they have completed their contract. Contracts are year to year, can not release a player mid season! League sets minimum on flights and lodging, but team can go above and beyond if they want. Players keep their 10% of transfer fee!!!
This should work. Owners aren't in it for really anymore than they are now. However they have the option of spending more if they wish. None of the teams will be that apart from each other so there should be some parity still left.
Originally Posted by Yoshou http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19572725#post19572725)
Hmm.. How about:
- 24 senior roster spots and 4 developmental players
- 50k minimum salary for senior players, 30k minimum for developmental players unless they make 18 man roster, then they get senior minimum for that week.
- $3 million hard cap, but adjustable year to year to whatever percentage of league income $3 million per team equates to (income goes up, salary cap goes up. Income goes down, salary cap goes down).
- Income includes ticket sales, game day concessions, merchandising, friendlies, etc.
- First $50k for developmental players don't count against the salary cap
- 2 DP spots, first DP is a $400k hit, and second DP is a $325k hit
- Reserve clause is eliminated
- Players keep their portion of transfer fees
Originally Posted by edwardgr http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19580131#post19580131)
I think one way the owners can make the players proposal work is to get a long guaranteed CBA. So the owners can say fine you want unrestricted movement, we want say ten years of labor peace.
22 Senior Spots, and 6-8 reserve spots. Reinstitute reserve league or allow direct ownership of PDL Pro side (or maybe a joint reserve league with the new NASL) thus creating a reserve team playing at a lower level.
Teams may charter flights at their own expense. League will charter flights for teams in international play.
I have been thinking that a 2.5m cap with NBA style rules for re-signing your own players would be appropriate. Any overage results in a $2:$1 luxury tax.
I also think that their needs to be 2-3 salary cap exempt spots (DPs today), where the player can be paid market value, these exempt spots are not transferrable. These spots would also be subject to X% luxury tax, where X is variable based on the pay for the exempt player. This would probably start at $2:$1 and escalate to as much as $1:$3. The idea being that sure if Messi were interested in playing for NY for $20m a year the Red Bulls could sign that contract, but they would have to contribute $60m. The luxury tax is not distributed to team paying less salary, or with less revenue, but rather to a central league fund for advertising, and as emergency funds to take over and operate a team.
Give the players guaranteed contracts through the xfer window for being on the roster opening day, and through the season when the xfer window closes. Players could still be released at any time, but are guaranteed at least half their contract. To further prevent abuse of this said players salary counts against the cap for the full season.
Restricted FA after say 3-4 years, and unrestricted after say 6-7 years of service. In restricted FA the team signing the restricted FA would have to compensate the team losing the FA, and the team could retain the FA by matching and adding 10% annual value to the offerred contract.
Minimum salaries should start at at least 50k.
Obviously I am not a contract negotiator, but I think something that skews slightly in the players favor, but with a long time guarantee to protect the owners could get things done. The biggest expense in my plan I believe is the return of the reserve league. But if you allow the teams to either create a regional reserve league with the NASL clubs, or join the existing PDL structure you can easily cut down those costs. The owners are not really on the hook for more salary initially, particularly if the service time for Free Agency starts with the new contract or is somehow prorated at a 3:1 or 2:1 exchange. Teams would not be obligated to charter flights, or sign Cap Exempt players. There are probably major items I am over looking as well.
Originally Posted by pc4th http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/bigsoccer/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19583555#post19583555)
I'm more in favor of a NBA-style soft cap. NBA installed it in the late 1980 and it did wonder for the league growth.
Assume that MLS will increase the cap by $0.5 mil for 2010:
Salary cap at around $2.8 mil (league pays).
Luxury tax ($1 penalty for $1 over) starts at $3 mil.
Teams under the $3 mil tax threshold will receive luxury tax revenue. This revenue can only be used toward infrastructure improvement, youth development/academies, community outreach programs.
Originally Posted by triplet1
I think it would be easy to do actually because the teams already send a third of their gate receipts to the league, and presumably that is audited now. It isn't necessary to look at thier "profitability" beyond that to make this work.
I would simply modify how the cap was calculated. After taking a cut for the league, divide the national TV money and national sponsorship money in equal shares, and let each team spend half of the gate receipts it sends to the league.
So a team's cap number would be the sum of:
(a) it's pro-rata share of the national TV money, plus
(b) it's pro-rata share of the national sponsorship money, plus
(c) half of the gate receipts it contributed to the league the prior year.
Two-thirds of the cap number (based on the TV money and sponsorship money) would be identical for every team, but the final third would provide a modest reward teams that market effectively and sell tickets. It's also self funding -- new cash isn't needed to make it work.
-------------------------------------------------------------
MLS single entity and revenue/expense model:
Posted by triplet1:
I know we've plowed this ground before, but let's remember the structure of MLS here because it always seems to surprise some people. Investor/Operators are just that: (1) they each have invested in the corporation MLS, LLC -- what we call the league -- from which they have the right to dividends on their shares and (2) they have the right to operate a team wholly owned by MLS, LLC. (There is no 51% rule nor are the teams jointly owned, the I/Os form their own corporate entities to operate the "team", which is owned by the league. If anyone still doubts it, look up the definition of "Team Operator" in the CBA.) The operating deal is pretty simple, the I/Os absorb most of the cost (with the important exception of the players) and get to keep more of the revenue, but they must send 30% of their ticket revenue to MLS, LLC.
Put that way, where does MLS, LLC make the most money? Simple, in markets where it has the highest ticket revenues. The only place we have a pretty solid number is Columbus, where the Columbus Dispatch reported last year that the Crew budgeted about $200,000 in ticket revenue per game, which would mean $60,000 per game for MLS, LLC, or $900,000 per year. Even if they draw the same number of people in another market, if they have higher ticket prices, MLS, LLC makes more money from them than in Columbus. And if a team both draws a lot of people and has high ticket prices, well, that's pure gold for MLS, LLC. For example, if Seattle's average ticket price is $30, at 30,000 a game they pay over $4 million a year to MLS, LLC -- four times what they got from the Crew.
Again, we don't have all the data, but under the current formula, as a league clearly some markets are much more profitable for MLS, LLC than others even though at times it may be counter-intuitive. DC United, for example, may not be profitable to its I/Os because of its stadium lease, but that's not really a concern for MLS, LLC because it doesn't cost them anything -- as long as DC United sells a lot of tickets at a higher price than average and forks over 30% of that cash to the league, it is a good market for MLS, LLC.