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View Full Version : Is scalping/touting going on in 111-112???



bgnewf
12-26-2009, 08:05 PM
Is scalping/touting of seats in 111-112 the kind of problem it is in 113?? I don't know how much of problem it is with RPB, but I do know it s a problem for us over in U Sector land (section 113). We have found numbers of season ticket packages in our section on sale in places like Kijiji and Craigslist. For us this has created a lot of problems and is keeping these seats out of the hands of supporters who deserve them.

Some U Sector members have identified these offenders and passed their information along to Paul Bierne and his staff. Many U Sectorites are hoping that this kind of thing ends in our section.

From my experience I would say "...don't hold your breath!!!...".

I have had a couple of conversations with MLSE employees about this in the past year and I can tell you that to a great extent they do not care at all about scalping when I brought it up as a great concern of true TFC supporters in those conversations. In fact you could argue that they actually either prefer or frankly want scalping to go on. Scalping creates in their logic two things:

1) An artificial scarcity of tickets that to them creates additional demand in the marketplace. An event that has scalpers must be an event worth going to. Demand creates less uncertainty on their bottom line.

2) Scalpers allow companies like MLSE to feel that they can justify increases in ticket prices year over year. They feel that if fans are paying for example $50 for a $30 dollar ticket from a tout they will most likely not care too much of the face value on that same ticket next season goes up to for example $35 or $40.

From a business perspective I can understand these arguments. In fact they are perfectly logical. In the entertainment business nothing is worse than uncertainty on the revenue front. And in a gate driven league like MLS I get that if you have a chance to lower even to a small degree that level of uncertainty it is something that you will definitely go with. Scalping as it exists in Toronto is also something MLSE understands and tacitly accepts for its other sports properties (Leafs and Raptors) for many of the same reasons above.


But as you all know TFC is different. The Leafs and Raptors do not have the same sort of organized supporters culture that we have at Toronto FC. The TFC supporters culture has more in common with respective football cultures in Europe, South America and elsewhere, that of course are strongly against scalping and the negative things that it brings to the experience.

Scalpers are seen as an aspect of supporting our club that make the overall experience worse. They lead to entire sections of seats in supporter designated areas falling into the hands of "tourists" that are often there to cause trouble and are more interested in a "hooligan day out" rather than enjoying themselves. I personally have been hit by projectiles like coins and beer cups thrown from that well known "dead zone" in 113 rows 6/7 that are seats firmly in the hands of scalpers. Many times this has been brought to the attention of the club and nothing substantive has ever happened. To me this is disgraceful.

So where does this leave us? We are faced with supporting a club that in many respects operates as just another North American sports franchise and tacitly supports scalping while on the other wanting the club to address how scalping has a negative impact on the very supporters culture that helps sell the club to the masses.


I for one am pessimistic that we will ever see the end of scalping/touting at TFC games. What I think SHOULD happen is a hybrid of what we have and what we want. If the club wants the status quo for the other parts of the stadium then I think that will probably be something that I would be willing to put up with as a reality that'll never change. However I think that in the designated supporters area scalping should be stamped out & given a zero tolerance.

Paul Bierne gets this in a conversation I had with him earlier this year. Whether he can or will atempt to get the higher ups in MLSE to go for a crackdown on touting in our section of the stadium is something he has yet to do. However I think that when we report obvious scalping behaviour in the past in our area and nothing is done about it part of me worries that he does not see it as much of an issue as we do.

Many others have already explained how to fix this. Whether it'll ever get fixed remains to be seen.



How are things for you guys???

Ladies Love Julius James
12-26-2009, 08:16 PM
Merry Christmas man.

Roogsy
12-26-2009, 08:17 PM
There are sections of 112 that we know are in the hands of scalpers...mostly in the mid-to-back part of the section.

Don't count on anything being done to address this issue, I don't believe it's high up on the list of priorities.

I feel your pain.

wzhxvy
12-26-2009, 08:58 PM
What is the difference between a scalper holding you hostage to pay more than face value for a TFC ticket and MLSE holding you hostage to buy Marlies tickets to get TFC tickets ???...nothing in my view and I think thats your answer

Kaz
12-26-2009, 09:21 PM
As far as I know scalpers aren't usually charging extra for the tickets... Last year I went to one game unexpectedly via a scalper. had three different groups of them offer me tickets ranging from 105 to 122 and none were at more then face value. 25-35-55-70. Ended up taking the 25 dollar ticket in a what the hell moment. Loved every second of the experience.

I think more should be done in the supporters section but I don't think that has anything to do with ticket price increases. ( I also think Firm Membership should be required to purchase or renew SSH in a Supporters section, but I'm kinda crazy)

Cashcleaner
12-26-2009, 09:49 PM
It would be absolutely fantastic if the FO grew a pair and started to clamp down on the scalpers altogether, but as long as the seats are getting filled and the club is getting it's cut, nothing is likely to change. We would probably all agree that the best course of action for us and the club to take is to give control of ticket sales in the south end over to the Supporter Groups, but that would be an incredibly unlikely scenario.

TFCtoMUFC
12-26-2009, 09:49 PM
As far as I know scalpers aren't usually charging extra for the tickets... Last year I went to one game unexpectedly via a scalper. had three different groups of them offer me tickets ranging from 105 to 122 and none were at more then face value. 25-35-55-70. Ended up taking the 25 dollar ticket in a what the hell moment. Loved every second of the experience.

I think more should be done in the supporters section but I don't think that has anything to do with ticket price increases. ( I also think Firm Membership should be required to purchase or renew SSH in a Supporters section, but I'm kinda crazy)

Thats the point of scalping, which is what makes it illegal. 2000 for a pair in row 7 of 113, and thats not the only pair. Something does need to be done to keep these guys out.

RedRum
12-26-2009, 09:54 PM
Total respect for your post Tim. Full of thoughts I have posted in the past but was unable to articulate as you have done so well here.

MLSE appears simply unwilling and unable to sacrifice short-term gain for long term stability. Really not surprising, the mandate of a corporation is after all, simply to suck as much money out of an entity as they can as quickly as possible.


What is the difference between a scalper holding you hostage to pay more than face value for a TFC ticket and MLSE holding you hostage to buy Marlies tickets to get TFC tickets ???...nothing in my view and I think thats your answer

Like I was saying...

Kaz
12-26-2009, 09:54 PM
Thats the point of scalping, which is what makes it illegal. 2000 for a pair in row 7 of 113, and thats not the only pair. Something does need to be done to keep these guys out.

I realize that, and I was surprised that it didn't seem to be the case for most seats.

It would seem that they are getting them at lower rates, and selling them at face.

I know that many of the onlines sites with resold tickets are at a higher rate, but on game day for most seats you shouldn't need to pay more then face.

James17930
12-26-2009, 10:05 PM
This is an honest suggestion -- I'm not trying to be facetious:

Maybe the supporters need to start some sort of 'friendly, non-violent harassment' of the scalpers who ply their trade both near the TTC/Go station next to BMO and online.

Get like twenty guys to go stand right in front of and around the scalpers, singing songs etc, making it impossible for them to do any business. If that went on game-in, game-out, maybe eventually they'd go away.

Also, people could create some sock-puppet e-mail accounts or something and start buying up those tickets being touted online then don't pay for them.

Are either of these possible, or even good ideas?

TFCtoMUFC
12-26-2009, 10:25 PM
My idea that is a few combined is this:

Red Patch Boys, have a panel of three representatives, they are responsible for distributing STs in 111 and 112. Same for U-Sector but in 113. Same for other SGs in there respective sections.

There is not a more simple and affective way to do it. We don't stand there all game and chant/sing/yell so that the guy behind us can sit down. Most of the people that sit and don't do hooligan type stuff have been cool (an older couple at the second or third last game of the year was really nice and the older man was enjoying himself the entire game but couldn't stand for 90 minutes) but then some get their panties in a bunch and give you that "Why are you doing that?" look.

RedRum
12-26-2009, 10:27 PM
This is an honest suggestion -- I'm not trying to be facetious:

Maybe the supporters need to start some sort of 'friendly, non-violent harassment' of the scalpers who ply their trade both near the TTC/Go station next to BMO and online.

Get like twenty guys to go stand right in front of and around the scalpers, singing songs etc, making it impossible for them to do any business. If that went on game-in, game-out, maybe eventually they'd go away.

Also, people could create some sock-puppet e-mail accounts or something and start buying up those tickets being touted online then don't pay for them.

Are either of these possible, or even good ideas?

Great tactic that is fair play at this stage of the game IMO, with the powers that be doing little to nothing after 3 years of this BS. Create a situation. Who is going to get shit on? The TFC supporter or the guy blatantly breaking the law?

BTW anyone with an eBay account can "buy" scalped tickets at will with no fear of negative feedback. Craigslist? Yeah dude I'll meet you wherever you want the day before the game. Big lolz.

Mods: sorry please dont give me another infraction for ripping into scalpers. In fact while we are here, why dont you do the right thing and delete the one I have? Calling one of them pond scum in the sceme of things really aint that bad, dontcha think?

ExiledRed
12-26-2009, 11:08 PM
My idea that is a few combined is this:

Red Patch Boys, have a panel of three representatives, they are responsible for distributing STs in 111 and 112. Same for U-Sector but in 113. Same for other SGs in there respective sections.



Doesn't work because there are lots of legitimate SSH in 111/112 who are not RPB and do not want to relinquish control of their tickets to a third party, nor should they be expected to.

The current seats are sold. its done. Nobody is handing them over to the group for the greater good, and MLSE isnt sending out letters any time soon informing ticketholders that they have been moved involuntarily to another section for the benefit of an SG.

The only way an SG can have its own section is if they buy every ticket in it and THEN distribute those tickets amongst their members while maintaining game by game ownership of the seats. This system would inevitably fall victim to favouritism, and could easily result in a select few determining, who sits in the section and who doesnt on any given week.

I wonder how many RPB who are in section 112, would willingly give up ownership of their season tickets to the group on trust and an understanding.

Voodooman
12-26-2009, 11:15 PM
Well said, reminds of one time when somebody complained that we were all standing in their way, and they wanted to sit down.

TFCtoMUFC
12-26-2009, 11:18 PM
Doesn't work because there are lots of legitimate SSH in 111/112 who are not RPB and do not want to relinquish control of their tickets to a third party, nor should they be expected to.

The current seats are sold. its done. Nobody is handing them over to the group for the greater good, and MLSE isnt sending out letters any time soon informing ticketholders that they have been moved involuntarily to another section for the benefit of an SG.

The only way an SG can have its own section is if they buy every ticket in it and THEN distribute those tickets amongst their members while maintaining game by game ownership of the seats. This system would inevitably fall victim to favouritism, and could easily result in a select few determining, who sits in the section and who doesnt on any given week.

I wonder how many RPB who are in section 112, would willingly give up ownership of their season tickets to the group on trust and an understanding.

I am saying from now on, no relinquishing STs. So when a pair goes up for grabs the SG assigns them.

RedRum
12-26-2009, 11:24 PM
I am saying from now on, no relinquishing STs. So when a pair goes up for grabs the SG assigns them.

Pair in 112 went up for grabs at re-location. Went to non-RPB. A simple phone call or email would have prevented that. But heavens no, that would have been un-democratic. Oh the humanity :rolleyes:

jazzy
12-27-2009, 01:12 AM
I am saying from now on, no relinquishing STs. So when a pair goes up for grabs the SG assigns them.

We delude ourselfs, we own nothing, we just rent these tickets year by the year. If MLS can figure out a way to make more $ in any way, regardless of our loyalty, consider it done. I am continuously overwhelmed by RPB's faith and loyalty, and continously underwhelmed by MLS's passion and communication to it's faithful. Still Merry Xmas and Happy New Year

Canadian Blue
12-27-2009, 01:40 AM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.

My 2010 ticket is almost definately going to be for sale and equally definately is the fact that is will not be for sale on this site.

CretanBull
12-27-2009, 02:44 AM
^I don't meant to kick up a shit storm, but if you're not willing to help out a fellow supporter then why bother becoming a member of a supporter's group etc?

Not just when it comes to tickets but A LOT of things, we help each other out around here. Beyond supporting our team, we're a brotherhood or fratenity of sorts. I can't count the number of favours that members have done for each other - and I'm sure that I'm only aware of a tiny portion of them. Is making a few bucks off of scalping your tickets more important (or even more valuable) than contributing to that? I can assure you that you'll get far more than you'll ever give if you take an active role in helping out your fellow supporters and it can all start by something as simple as selling your unused tickets at cost - something that litterally costs you nothing, but would mean a lot to someone.

rocker
12-27-2009, 03:31 AM
ummm. obviously those scalpers bought those tickets before a certain section of the TFC SG population did.

You snooze, you lose.

JDG
12-27-2009, 03:44 AM
ummm. obviously those scalpers bought those tickets before a certain section of the TFC SG population did.

You snooze, you lose.


At the time the scalpers bought up the seats in 112 we were still discovering with some suprise, that our numbers were significantly bigger than originally thought.
We did, with the cooperation of the ticket office, secure a few rows at the front of 112.
When they went quickly, we asked for a few more and got them.
When we finally realized that we should have taken the whole section it was too late, and all the ticket office could do was hold a couple of rows at the top for us.

Initially, nobody expected that we would grow as quickly as we did.
Hindsight is 20/20, and we now know we could have filled 112 and more. Unfortunalely it's far to late to do anything about it.

Kaz
12-27-2009, 03:52 AM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.

My 2010 ticket is almost definately going to be for sale and equally definately is the fact that is will not be for sale on this site.

Why would you sell it for profit? Particularly as a RPB?
Why wouldn't you sell it at face value or the price you paid? That seems to me like you are just cheating a fan out of their money for no other reason then greed.

I will always take a ticket from this site before I will from a scalper (now that I have a little experience with the ticket trade)

AL-MO
12-27-2009, 03:53 AM
...

Yes it is a problem.....but until a MAJOR incident happens where MLSE needes to identify STH's things won't change.

AL-MO
12-27-2009, 03:54 AM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.

My 2010 ticket is almost definately going to be for sale and equally definately is the fact that is will not be for sale on this site.

So how many more months are you going to count yourself and RPB......

AL-MO
12-27-2009, 03:54 AM
This is an honest suggestion -- I'm not trying to be facetious:

Maybe the supporters need to start some sort of 'friendly, non-violent harassment' of the scalpers who ply their trade both near the TTC/Go station next to BMO and online.

Get like twenty guys to go stand right in front of and around the scalpers, singing songs etc, making it impossible for them to do any business. If that went on game-in, game-out, maybe eventually they'd go away.

Also, people could create some sock-puppet e-mail accounts or something and start buying up those tickets being touted online then don't pay for them.

Are either of these possible, or even good ideas?

Would be nice. Jack does his best.

AL-MO
12-27-2009, 03:55 AM
Pair in 112 went up for grabs at re-location. Went to non-RPB. A simple phone call or email would have prevented that. But heavens no, that would have been un-democratic. Oh the humanity :rolleyes:


MmMmMmM. I like koolaid. :rolleyes:

Don't think it was that easy senor.

MUFC_Niagara
12-27-2009, 04:13 AM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.

My 2010 ticket is almost definately going to be for sale and equally definately is the fact that is will not be for sale on this site.

1) :facepalm:

2) If you want to sell for a profit then go somewhere else. Tickets are on sale for face value here so that people who want to go to games can do so without being hijacked.

3) Facist? You CHOSE to be be here, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you don't agree with the rules then leave. You have a choice, how is that "facist" in the context of which you are TRYING to use the word.

I'm not trying to start a war....just saying.

AL-MO
12-27-2009, 04:18 AM
1) :facepalm:

2) If you want to sell for a profit then go somewhere else. Tickets are on sale for face value here so that people who want to go to games can do so without being hijacked.

3) Facist? You CHOSE to be be here, no one is holding a gun to your head. If you don't agree with the rules then leave. You have a choice, how is that "facist" in the context of which you are TRYING to use the word.

I'm not trying to start a war....just saying.

I am not sure that I would bother. In some groups, tickets go to other members FREE.

Roogsy
12-27-2009, 04:46 AM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.

My 2010 ticket is almost definately going to be for sale and equally definately is the fact that is will not be for sale on this site.

Stop whinging about the fact that this board watches out for it's users and prohibits the almost unanimously disapproved practice of selling to fellow supporters at a profit. It's not fascist when it's the consensus of the majority, that's democratic. Explain how exactly it is that despite the fact that the majority of members and users of this board prefer a non-scalping environment that you can arbitrarily define it as "fascist"?

You certainly have the choice to sell on this board your discounted seasons tickets at FACE VALUE which in fact allows you to make a slight profit anyways, however, what you are asking is for the ability to gouge other users of this board at an inflated price beyond that slight profit knowing that there are members of RPB who are very anxious to get in. That's like store owners jacking up prices for staples and water during disasters because people are willing to pay $10 litre for water. That's called "hoarding" and it's disgusting. And you keep whinging over and over about the fact that you're not allowed to do it here. You're only making yourself look bad. You have the ability to throw up your tickets on craigslist, kijiji, ebay, stubhub and anywhere else you can find a market but you're upset because you want to take take advantage of the captive audience which you think you can scam for more than what people outside of RPB are willing to pay. It's insulting.

I am glad this board protects the users and members from people who want to take advantage of the system. This board is not here to facilitate your financial gain, supporters are not supposed to do that to each other. You want real supporters in the stands, but only if they pad your wallet. It makes me sick.

Cashcleaner
12-27-2009, 06:57 AM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.

My 2010 ticket is almost definitely going to be for sale and equally definately is the fact that is will not be for sale on this site.

Yeah...fascism. Good comparison. :rolleyes:

Bluenose13
12-27-2009, 10:27 AM
^I don't meant to kick up a shit storm, but if you're not willing to help out a fellow supporter then why bother becoming a member of a supporter's group etc?

Not just when it comes to tickets but A LOT of things, we help each other out around here. Beyond supporting our team, we're a brotherhood or fratenity of sorts. I can't count the number of favours that members have done for each other - and I'm sure that I'm only aware of a tiny portion of them. Is making a few bucks off of scalping your tickets more important (or even more valuable) than contributing to that? I can assure you that you'll get far more than you'll ever give if you take an active role in helping out your fellow supporters and it can all start by something as simple as selling your unused tickets at cost - something that litterally costs you nothing, but would mean a lot to someone.Unfortunately this is something that Canadian Blue just can't comprehend.

prizby
12-27-2009, 10:45 AM
if there is some way that you can make scalpers lives miserable...any ideas?

fact is, i believe by law that in canada you cannot sell tickets for over face value...although this is not policed

Rudi
12-27-2009, 12:11 PM
If you want to stop scalper tickets from the "supporters" sections going to what you call "non-supporters" remove the facist rule that says people can not sell tickets on this website for a profit.
Forget all of the other (legitimate) responses to this post for a minute.

I'm genuinely curious how what you are proposing would work. As in, how would allowing scalping to take place here actually stop scalper tickets in the supporter sections?

Wouldn't that actually increase it?

I'm trying to see the logic behind this, because to me it seems like there is none.

Always There
12-27-2009, 12:19 PM
This is a topic that seems to pop up every so often. Even the Blue Jays have scalpers and they rarely have a half filled stadium. Rocker said it best. Everyone had equal opportunity to buy tickets when they originally went on sale. Whoever didn't buy them then, missed out. Exiled Red also makes a great point.

I also agree with the opinion that they are very rarely sold at higher than face value, as I know several people who have bought scalper tickets and nobody has payed higher than face value that I know personally.

I am often surprised to read about problems that I am unaware of. The atmosphere is great. I don't understand the concern really. Not everyone has to be on the same page to have a great time. I sometimes think there is a bit too much concern with everyone doing the same thing. Canadian Blue disagrees with a principle and he's scorned and told to get out. That is very strange.

I guess my point is, just don't worry about it. Scalpers are a fact of life. I sometimes have people around me who have quite obviously never been to BMO before. Way more often than not they are great people who just want to enjoy themselves. I don't understand the problem. Don't waste the energy worrying about something so minor.

ochos
12-27-2009, 12:26 PM
BG - I have wanted to lead a crusade against this cancerous issue for quite some time. It is one of those issues that, as some ^^ have pointed out, isn't that big a deal, until you realize one day that no one is chanting, making noise and more empty seats are popping up.

I will do whatever it takes to get scalpers hands off of tickets in the south end...

Jeffro
12-27-2009, 12:50 PM
This is a topic that seems to pop up every so often. Even the Blue Jays have scalpers and they rarely have a half filled stadium. Rocker said it best. Everyone had equal opportunity to buy tickets when they originally went on sale. Whoever didn't buy them then, missed out. Exiled Red also makes a great point.

I also agree with the opinion that they are very rarely sold at higher than face value, as I know several people who have bought scalper tickets and nobody has payed higher than face value that I know personally.

I am often surprised to read about problems that I am unaware of. The atmosphere is great. I don't understand the concern really. Not everyone has to be on the same page to have a great time. I sometimes think there is a bit too much concern with everyone doing the same thing. . Canadian Blue disagrees with a principle and he's scorned and told to get outThat is very strange.

I guess my point is, just don't worry about it. Scalpers are a fact of life. I sometimes have people around me who have quite obviously never been to BMO before. Way more often than not they are great people who just want to enjoy themselves. I don't understand the problem. Don't waste the energy worrying about something so minor.

Canadian Blue was scorned for calling RPB fascist for having a perfectly logical and fair rule on the board, and now you're defending him...

TFCtoMUFC
12-27-2009, 01:02 PM
Canadian Blue was scorned for calling RPB fascist for having a perfectly logical and fair rule on the board, and now you're defending him...

Exactly. When it ain't broke, never will be broke, and everyone knows it can't be broke than don't try and fix it. (his fix made no sense though)

Mark in Ottawa
12-27-2009, 01:17 PM
if there is some way that you can make scalpers lives miserable...any ideas?

fact is, i believe by law that in canada you cannot sell tickets for over face value...although this is not policed
ML$E does not care about ticket scalping and it appears neither do the police. This is seen as a victimless crime of low importance.

Ticket Speculation/scalping is a provincial concern.
In Ontario it is governed by the Ticket Speculation Act (revised 1990)
http://www.canadalegal.com/gosite.asp?s=1892

Which makes it illegal to re-sell or to attempt to resell a ticket above the originally advertised prices.
By the way it is also against the law to purchase tickets above originally advertised prices.

There are exceptions prescribed in the law for authorized ticket agents but as we all know agents such as Ticketmaster are regularly in breach of the law through the the use of "child companies" like TicketsNow.

Get In There
12-27-2009, 01:21 PM
How are your finances?

If you have a dead zone and these tickets are being sold on-line, the thought that comes to me is to take some RPB scratch and purchase the tickets - damn, if they are going for face value - offer a premium and buy the whole season.

Then resell to RPB to recoup - keep building the pot and continue the practice - scalpers like security as well.

You need to do this yourself as PB will not do a thing to help. Anyone think he wants you to control an even larger portion of the south end - Hells No.

Happy Holidays

B

Mark in Ottawa
12-27-2009, 01:27 PM
How are your finances?

If you have a dead zone and these tickets are being sold on-line, the thought that comes to me is to take some RPB scratch and purchase the tickets - damn, if they are going for face value - offer a premium and buy the whole season.

Then resell to RPB to recoup - keep building the pot and continue the practice - scalpers like security as well.

You need to do this yourself as PB will not do a thing to help. Anyone think he wants you to control an even larger portion of the south end - Hells No.

Happy Holidays

B
So your solution is to break the law and support the scalpers who will continue to keep control over the tickets year to year??

IMHO... No thanks.

Get In There
12-27-2009, 01:33 PM
Use the system to beat and change the system...or languish in idealism.

your choice

B

Sally Mack
12-27-2009, 02:06 PM
We need to make these scalpers an offer they can't refuse. Lol

Roogsy
12-27-2009, 02:21 PM
Canadian Blue disagrees with a principle and he's scorned and told to get out. That is very strange.


A principle is a "standard" or an ethic. This board has one. The only thing CB is disagreeing to is the fact that he believes there should be no standard or ethic and he should be allowed to do what he wants...in effect, that there be no "principle" at all. I would submit that most users on this board, especially the membership of the Red Patch Boys disagree with the position of having no principle at all, in fact, because of the position widely held by the group do we have that standard in the first place.

Are you telling me CB does not have other options to try to sell his tickets above face value?

Always There
12-27-2009, 03:41 PM
A principle is a "standard" or an ethic. This board has one. The only thing CB is disagreeing to is the fact that he believes there should be no standard or ethic and he should be allowed to do what he wants...in effect, that there be no "principle" at all. I would submit that most users on this board, especially the membership of the Red Patch Boys disagree with the position of having no principle at all, in fact, because of the position widely held by the group do we have that standard in the first place.

Are you telling me CB does not have other options to try to sell his tickets above face value?

I'm just saying that when he disagreed he is scorned. He didn't call the RPB fascist in general, he used a foolish word, but he was just disagreeing with a rule. I care 0% about what he does with his tickets.

You're getting into semantics for the sake of what I'm not sure. I don't intend to have a debate about principles and ethics and who has them and who doesn't. That was not at all the point of my post.

The only part of my post that seemed to register is my questioning why Canadian Blue can't disagree. That speaks volumes to me.

Always There
12-27-2009, 03:56 PM
I can see this is another thread where one is not allowed to disagree, so I'll end my involvement by saying good luck. I think a battle against scalping will be about as successful as the war on drugs.

Why worry about problems that can't be solved? BMO is great. Too many seem concerned with achieving unrealistic goals. Accept that there will never be perfection, but enjoy what we have. It's so much fun, it doesn't make sense to focus on the perceived negativity.

Bluenose13
12-27-2009, 03:57 PM
I'm just saying that when he disagreed he is scorned. He didn't call the RPB fascist in general, he used a foolish word, but he was just disagreeing with a rule. I care 0% about what he does with his tickets.

You're getting into semantics for the sake of what I'm not sure. I don't intend to have a debate about principles and ethics and who has them and who doesn't. That was not at all the point of my post.

The only part of my post that seemed to register is my questioning why Canadian Blue can't disagree. That speaks volumes to me.hahahaha........He's Back! :facepalm:

ExiledRed
12-27-2009, 05:23 PM
Forget all of the other (legitimate) responses to this post for a minute.

I'm genuinely curious how what you are proposing would work. As in, how would allowing scalping to take place here actually stop scalper tickets in the supporter sections?

Wouldn't that actually increase it?

I'm trying to see the logic behind this, because to me it seems like there is none.

Its quite simple.

People dont make their tickets available on here if they intend to make a buck off them (or scalp them..whatever)

The availability of these tickets is therefore lost on the people who come on here looking for tickets.

The scalped seats are taken by 'tourists' or 'non supporters' who are prepared to pay a little bit extra, while the 'true fans' get stuck without tickets because they wont deal with the scalpers, and dont have any real avenue to deal with them.

This is what CB is saying. While scalpers have no relations whatsoever with the SG, and they cant sell their tickets on the board, their tickets go to people who aren't in an SG.

Stalemate.

Hope this helped.

Get In There
12-27-2009, 05:43 PM
Its quite simple.

People dont make their tickets available on here if they intend to make a buck off them (or scalp them..whatever)

The availability of these tickets is therefore lost on the people who come on here looking for tickets.

The scalped seats are taken by 'tourists' or 'non supporters' who are prepared to pay a little bit extra, while the 'true fans' get stuck without tickets because they wont deal with the scalpers, and dont have any real avenue to deal with them.

This is what CB is saying. While scalpers have no relations whatsoever with the SG, and they cant sell their tickets on the board, their tickets go to people who aren't in an SG.

Stalemate.

Hope this helped.

Yes, that's it.

Hey - I have never sold my tickets for a profit, I actually tend to give them away when I can't go - but why not find out who has the seats you guys want and deal with them.

Crap, we download movies off the internet (just an example) but won't buy these tickets because of a principle (which has its merits) - but at the end of the day the cat is out of the bag.

This guy might not be a scumbag/pure profit scalper - a fan who goes to some games and sells most. My boss is doing this next year (in primo prawnland) as they were company seats under his name (company wanted to get out - due to economy - so he decided to keep them).

If the owners are not gouging and will be happy with what you want to pay, why not buy them...? Dudes here are buying frick'n marlies tickets....what kind of ethic is that being hoisted on them?

So you don't 'own' them....if you have a fiscally healthy relationship why would he sell to others the next year?......."for more profit", that's when you return in kind and make it not so comfortable for the weekly tourist....if he sells to supporters other than you....still the situation you want.

B

Canadian Blue
12-27-2009, 06:25 PM
Its quite simple.

People dont make their tickets available on here if they intend to make a buck off them (or scalp them..whatever)

The availability of these tickets is therefore lost on the people who come on here looking for tickets.

The scalped seats are taken by 'tourists' or 'non supporters' who are prepared to pay a little bit extra, while the 'true fans' get stuck without tickets because they wont deal with the scalpers, and dont have any real avenue to deal with them.

This is what CB is saying. While scalpers have no relations whatsoever with the SG, and they cant sell their tickets on the board, their tickets go to people who aren't in an SG.

Stalemate.

Hope this helped.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at.....I apologize for my use of the word facist, it was only used for dramatic effect.

And for all of you that don't know me but have passed judgement and others of you that do and have still decided to talk shit....it is unfortunate. As a matter of interest any game I have ever missed has had the ticket sold at face value or given away for free so I have never made a profit off of RPB. Simply I was saying, the fact that I will be selling my entire season for 2010 and have the opportunity to make a few bucks off that, it is unfortunate that the option to purchase can not be offered here to a "true supporter"

Anyway, this thread can be closed now since it has turned in to a shit show....

Canadian Blue
12-27-2009, 06:39 PM
Unfortunately this is something that Canadian Blue just can't comprehend.

I can only assume that this is stated in jest.....Bluenose

As for doing things for other supporters and selling tickets at face value, I do both.........maybe you should speak to all people that have received my tickets in the past when I am unable to go or maybe you can speak with the at least 2 RPB members that I have assisted in finding employment.......when you don't know what you are talking about it is best to not talk at all

CretanBull
12-27-2009, 06:42 PM
^If its your usual practice to sell tickets at face value or give them away, why do you want to profit off of selling a full season's worth? You know how much it would mean to some of the guys around here to get a season ticket for the full season...

I'm not judging you, its just frustrating knowing that you're in a position to help out a fellow supporter....

A lot of people do a lot of things - organize viewing parties, banner painting sessions, setting up tailgates, do all the logistics for away games etc. - and no one makes money off of it, and all of its done for the benefit for everyone else.

Bluenose13
12-27-2009, 06:44 PM
I can only assume that this is stated in jest.....Bluenose

As for doing things for other supporters and selling tickets at face value, I do both.........maybe you should speak to all people that have received my tickets in the past when I am unable to go or maybe you can speak with the at least 2 RPB members that I have assisted in finding employment.......when you don't know what you are talking about it is best to not talk at allI have watched you time & time again want to profit off fellow RPB's & for that in my mind their is no excuse.

This group is very good to it's members in many ways......If you can't make a game, sell your tickets to a fellow RPB at face value......END OF STORY.

TFCtoMUFC
12-27-2009, 07:00 PM
Canadian Blue, don't really know you but if you are selling at face value drop me a PM.

Kaz
12-27-2009, 07:53 PM
I do take exception to tourist being called less then true fans.

all the Support sections need to have a system worked out with MLSE over a few years to move out as many SSH not in a Firm as possible. but if those seats are scalped to people, then honestly there isn't alot that can be done of the bat.

This is the only opinion on these boards that I have seen that has actually kept me from looking to join any firm at the moment.. The Idea that there are true fans, and fake fans is kinda insulting and egotistical.. Everyone out at BMO should be looked at and treated as a fan. I shouldn't matter if they end up leaving 10 minutes before the match ends so they can catch a train or beat traffic. It's annoying, but it dosen't make people less of a fan..

The issue here is that there seems to be an air of entitlement developing, and that is a bit of an issue. People need to take a good long look at using terms like "real fans" and "Fairweather". It really does paint a bad image of the membership at times, and adds to this idea that SSH holders and Supporters should not see price increases and then scape goat it on, "fake fans"

Scalpers serve a purpose, not one I like, but I've bought tickets that way twice in my life, and will so again if needed be. But I don't pay above face. I would prefer those tickets stay at the box, but if I don't pay any more for them, I can live with them. It's online sites that I see tickets going for 2 or 3 times face value that bothers me.

RicoSuave44
12-27-2009, 08:49 PM
^^^ don't have a problem with people leaving early eh? Well I do. And I'll continue to yell abuse. The couple times I've had to duck out a few minutes early I apologized to ppls and took the crap that was thrown at me without having a hissy.

I got a great idea...How bout we all try and get a jump on traffic and the whole stadium leaves early. Better yet lets not even leave home. Brilliant!

As for scalpers.... fuck em. Let's get 100 guys together, go surround em, tell em to drop the tickets and walk. If they don't they get a beating. I don't think it would take many weeks for em to figure it out. Real simple.

G

JDG
12-27-2009, 09:04 PM
I do take exception to tourist being called less then true fans.

all the Support sections need to have a system worked out with MLSE over a few years to move out as many SSH not in a Firm as possible. but if those seats are scalped to people, then honestly there isn't alot that can be done of the bat.

This is the only opinion on these boards that I have seen that has actually kept me from looking to join any firm at the moment.. The Idea that there are true fans, and fake fans is kinda insulting and egotistical.. Everyone out at BMO should be looked at and treated as a fan. I shouldn't matter if they end up leaving 10 minutes before the match ends so they can catch a train or beat traffic. It's annoying, but it dosen't make people less of a fan..

The issue here is that there seems to be an air of entitlement developing, and that is a bit of an issue. People need to take a good long look at using terms like "real fans" and "Fairweather". It really does paint a bad image of the membership at times, and adds to this idea that SSH holders and Supporters should not see price increases and then scape goat it on, "fake fans"

Scalpers serve a purpose, not one I like, but I've bought tickets that way twice in my life, and will so again if needed be. But I don't pay above face. I would prefer those tickets stay at the box, but if I don't pay any more for them, I can live with them. It's online sites that I see tickets going for 2 or 3 times face value that bothers me.

Like the scalping issue, the true supporter vs secondary fan debate, is an issue that has come up quite often. While there are a lot of poorly thought out statements made about this issue, the consensus is that there are many ways to support your team and none is any more valid than another.
Most of the time, when you read about true supporters vs the unaffiliated, it isn't really meant to convey the idea that affiliated supporters are better than anyone else. We all know that there is dead weight in our numbers, and many fine supporters who are not part of our group. When these statements are made, the idea is usually that there is a higher chance of getting someone who will stand and chant with us if they come from our own ranks. There are many peolpe who come into 112 for a game or two, who sing their hearts out, and do their level best to keep their end up when it comes to vocalizing our support. There are also many who come in, not knowing what they were getting when they got the tickets, and they end up complaing to those around them, or commenting about what they don't like about the section.

Canadian Blue
12-27-2009, 09:49 PM
I have watched you time & time again want to profit off fellow RPB's & for that in my mind their is no excuse.

Reply: you are obviously drunk right now and talking shit or you just have no idea what you are talking about.

This group is very good to it's members in many ways......If you can't make a game, sell your tickets to a fellow RPB at face value......END OF STORY.

Reply: I agree the group is a good one and that is why for one off's I do sell at face value or give away for free.

You should really get off your highhorse with the broken back.......I seem to remember you were going to buy season 2 tickets off a prominent member of this board at 4 times the face value

For the record none of you know me personally and have no idea why I need to help myself financially


read above

TFCtoMUFC
12-27-2009, 09:52 PM
That is true that none of us know why you need to/want to sell your seasons. I would pay a tad above face value of seasons because of the convenience, and seasons are cheaper than buying singles. If you need to unload them PM me.

JDG
12-27-2009, 09:58 PM
read above

Canadian Blue was one of the first two RPB's that I met face to face.
I know him to be a genuine supporter, and if he had real issues with the Red Patch boys he would have dropped off the RADAR a long time ago, just as so many others have.
I've done business with Canadian Blue on several occasions, and I would never, ever refer to him as a scalper based on our transactions.
If he disagrees with the principle of not allowing anyone to sell above face value, that's his perogative. He isn't trying to advocate scalping on this site. If he wishes to mark his ticket up a bit, he has made it clear that he will respect our rules and go elswhere.

We have the right to diasagree with eachother.

Bluenose13
12-27-2009, 10:33 PM
read above
Originally Posted by Bluenose13 http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=836913#post836913)
I have watched you time & time again want to profit off fellow RPB's & for that in my mind their is no excuse.

Reply: you are obviously drunk right now and talking shit or you just have no idea what you are talking about.

You keep going on & on about wanting to scalp your tickets on this site.....anything above face value is scalping & should not be done between fellow supporters......Why is this so fucking hard for you to understand.


This group is very good to it's members in many ways......If you can't make a game, sell your tickets to a fellow RPB at face value......END OF STORY.

Reply: I agree the group is a good one and that is why for one off's I do sell at face value or give away for free.

You should really get off your highhorse with the broken back.......I seem to remember you were going to buy season 2 tickets off a prominent member of this board at 4 times the face value

Before I had season tickets of my own, I would have paid almost anything to get seats in 112, that doesn't mean I would be a cunt & want to scalp those tickets myself for profit.......Big difference.


For the record none of you know me personally and have no idea why I need to help myself financially

No matter what the reason it should be done somewhere other than a supporters website & to debate it every 3 months because you don't like the rule is tiresome.

Canadian Blue
12-27-2009, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Bluenose13 http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=836913#post836913)


anything above face value is scalping & should not be done between fellow supporters - unless you benefit by getting tickets you....as stated by your statement below

Before I had season tickets of my own, I would have paid almost anything to get seats in 112, that doesn't mean I would be a cunt & want to scalp those tickets myself for profit.......Big difference.

So it is ok to buy scalper tickets but not sell to make a little profit. You do realize that one is impossible without the other, sounds to me your being a bit of a hypocrite. Oh and calling me a cunt is a very grown up way to debate a point.......we have had drinks together, now you show your true colours mate.


For the record none of you know me personally and have no idea why I need to help myself financially

No matter what the reason it should be done somewhere other than a supporters website & to debate it every 3 months because you don't like the rule is tiresome. - as stated in my very first post if I do decide to sell I will do so on another site. Every 3 months come on now.....I have brought it up before to that there is no doubt. But I surely do not need to apologize for having my own opinion.



once again

ExiledRed
12-27-2009, 11:25 PM
I just want to point out that although I dont intend to mark my tickets up, I wouldn't feel bad about doing it whatsoever.

I just took a crippling blow to my finances and paid up $600, a week before christmas to own these season tickets. In order to do that, personal sacrifices had to be made, my kids got less for christmas, my wife got fuckall and I couldn't treat myself to shit. On top of that, bills remain unpaid going into the new year, and I have to struggle more, all because of that $600.

So if I ever ask for an extra $10 on a single ticket, and you dont like that, then thats too fucking bad.

JDG
12-27-2009, 11:34 PM
I just want to point out that although I dont intend to mark my tickets up, I wouldn't feel bad about doing it whatsoever.

I just took a crippling blow to my finances and paid up $600, a week before christmas to own these season tickets. In order to do that, personal sacrifices had to be made, my kids got less for christmas, my wife got fuckall and I couldn't treat myself to shit. On top of that, bills remain unpaid going into the new year, and I have to struggle more, all because of that $600.

So if I ever ask for an extra $10 on a single ticket, and you dont like that, then thats too fucking bad.


I agree and sympathize 100%

The only issue we need to be considering here is whether or not the tickets will be sold on the forum.
If someone works out a deal ofline, all the power to them. That's their business, and not mine or this group's.

ExiledRed
12-27-2009, 11:47 PM
I agree and sympathize 100%

The only issue we need to be considering here is whether or not the tickets will be sold on the forum.
If someone works out a deal ofline, all the power to them. That's their business, and not mine or this group's.

I know, and CB is pointing out that while the no markup rule exists, those tickets that would have been marked up (I wont use the term scalped here) dont get sold to people on the board, who then complain that the tickets went to people who dont sing and chant and dont deserve to be in the stadium (or something like that)

The rule doesnt prevent marking up, it only prevents board users from accessing those tickets.

Roogsy
12-27-2009, 11:59 PM
I just want to point out that although I dont intend to mark my tickets up, I wouldn't feel bad about doing it whatsoever.


That is not the problem that people are arguing against, at least not me.

You are perfectly witihn your rights to do whatever you want with your tickets. If you want to go on Ebay and sell them for $10,000 by all means get what you can for them.

But simply know and accept that you can't do that on this board. I haven't hear your whinge about not being able to hose other users on this board...and that's all that we ask. Beyond that, whatever you can get for them is your business. All the power to you.

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 12:02 AM
I know, and CB is pointing out that while the no markup rule exists, those tickets that would have been marked up (I wont use the term scalped here) dont get sold to people on the board, who then complain that the tickets went to people who dont sing and chant and dont deserve to be in the stadium (or something like that)

The rule doesnt prevent marking up, it only prevents board users from accessing those tickets.

The rule is in place to create a standard among fellow supporters. When you scalp, you are essentially saying "I am going to take you for everything I can".

CB has a choice. He can contribute to tourists in the stands by selling his tickets for an extra $10-20, or he can sell them to people who understand the point of being in a supporters section. At the end of the day, it's his choice...but he isn't the only one facing this issue. All of us with tickets in the south stands make this decision every day, and as far as I know, most of us in this group and the other supporters groups acknowledge that it's unethical to "take" a fellow supporter for as much as possible. We'd much rather simply recover the money we paid (and a little extra since face value still allows for a slight profit) but ensure that we are giving our tickets to someone we know will contribute to the atmosphere we are all trying to create.

CB is essentially saying he'd be willing to sacrifice that atmosphere for $10. Good for him.

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 12:48 AM
The rule is in place to create a standard among fellow supporters. When you scalp, you are essentially saying "I am going to take you for everything I can".


No, when you mark a ticket up $10, you are essentially saying "I want $10 (not as much as possible) for my trouble, which includes making the bulk payment, acquiring the tickets and making them available to you."

'scalping' is a result of buying tickets with the sole purpose of profit, and having no interest in the product whatsoever, its different.

Also, how does CB know that the person who wont pay an extra $10 will contribute to the atmosphere any more than the person who will?

CB is saying nothing of the kind, he's merely expressing that he'd like an extra $10 (or whatever) for his trouble, and if the 'atmosphere creating' supporters arent willing to pay that, then maybe its them who are willing to sacrifice the atmosphere for $10 and not CB.

Anyway, Im playing devils advocate. My tickets arent for sale.

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 12:51 AM
Just the same I suppose the rest of us are saying "we are willing to sacrifice $10 for a better chance that a real supporter will take the tickets and to ensure fairness among supporters".

There are few sure-things in this life. And it may be wishful thinking, however, I would bet my tickets are better used by someone on this board than by someone on Kijiji.

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 12:55 AM
I would bet my tickets are better used by someone on this board than by someone on Kijiji.

I'd say its still a crapshoot.

There are plenty of wankers on this board, least of all myself.

and with that...Im going to go and play Left 4 dead, cause I couldnt afford the sequel this year.

Goodnight.

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 12:59 AM
I am avid poker man myself...and I tell you despite the odds, holding Aces/King never wins me anything and always gets me in trouble.

And yet I still play them because that's what the odds tell me to do.

That's what we do on this board. Yeah, lots of assholes...myself included...but all we do in life is take a best shot. At least on this board, you know you are selling to actual soccer fans...and if they have been on the board for an extended period of time, they likely know what is expected of them...not so on the public classified ads. So it is an educated chance that we take in assuming that in selling to someone on this board, we are doing our own part to ensure the atmosphere in the stadium.

Yes, it's an assumption, but I would say not that much of a crapshoot compared to selling to anyone willy nilly on craigslist because they are willing to pay an extra $10.

jazzy
12-28-2009, 01:11 AM
The rule is in place to create a standard among fellow supporters. When you scalp, you are essentially saying "I am going to take you for everything I can".

CB has a choice. He can contribute to tourists in the stands by selling his tickets for an extra $10-20, or he can sell them to people who understand the point of being in a supporters section. At the end of the day, it's his choice...but he isn't the only one facing this issue. All of us with tickets in the south stands make this decision every day, and as far as I know, most of us in this group and the other supporters groups acknowledge that it's unethical to "take" a fellow supporter for as much as possible. We'd much rather simply recover the money we paid (and a little extra since face value still allows for a slight profit) but ensure that we are giving our tickets to someone we know will contribute to the atmosphere we are all trying to create.

CB is essentially saying he'd be willing to sacrifice that atmosphere for $10. Good for him.

So much vitriol, ocasionally when my wife and me or our friends nearby can't make it, we find some young kids that are in love with the atmosphere at the game,(esp RPB's contribution), and give them the tickets. I am always broke but I've already paid for them so who cares? If someone decides to sell their seasons, so be it, if MLS doesn't get their crap together, maybe someday these season's won't be so desirable.

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 01:20 AM
So much vitriol, ocasionally when my wife and me or our friends nearby can't make it, we find some young kids that are in love with the atmosphere at the game,(esp RPB's contribution), and give them the tickets. I am always broke but I've already paid for them so who cares? If someone decides to sell their seasons, so be it, if MLS doesn't get their crap together, maybe someday these season's won't be so desirable.

And that is your choice. Nobody is passing judgements on what you do with your own tickets that you have purchased with your money. The same applies to CB.

What you can't do is sell them above face value on this board. Is that so difficult to understand?

And where is exactly is the vitriol? I would suggest you go back and re-read who called who "fascist".

Canadian Blue
12-28-2009, 01:37 AM
And where is exactly is the vitriol? I would suggest you go back and re-read who called who "fascist".

Seriously, get over it, that was already apologized for and explained that it was just used for effect....

jazzy
12-28-2009, 01:52 AM
And that is your choice. Nobody is passing judgements on what you do with your own tickets that you have purchased with your money. The same applies to CB.

What you can't do is sell them above face value on this board. Is that so difficult to understand?

And where is exactly is the vitriol? I would suggest you go back and re-read who called who "fascist".

OUCH!...I don't believe I mentioned it is OK to sell them either at face value or above face value on this board. the vitriol is throughout the thread....on all sides...not agreeable...but it's thought provoking

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 01:56 AM
What you can't do is sell them above face value on this board. Is that so difficult to understand?



Its understood, nobody is confused.

The merits of the board policy are currently being debated, not the mechanics.

Ricky_Portugal
12-28-2009, 02:57 AM
i agree that we should not scalp fellow supporter but to say that only tourists and non supporters by from scalpers is tottaly not tru mind u i am first year rpb member but all season except the last 3 games i have had to buy my tickets off of scalpers and i chant sing and jump with the best of them i was even part of the dichio thank you banner (one of the proudist momments in my life ) but yes ive been scalped almost all year no a scalper i deal with for leaf tickets is trying to charge me 90 bucks a seat for section 127 on the home opener so i ask you wheres the justice but oh well i guess i'm rambling i vote no scalping between supporters

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 04:04 AM
Seriously, get over it, that was already apologized for and explained that it was just used for effect....

Jazzy made an observation about the tone of the thread, and I merely pointed out a fact about the thread which was that you set the tone in your post. I recognize the apology afterwards but I was not responding to your post but rather Jazzy's observation. Your statement was only referenced in response. It won't be mentioned again unless someone else brings it up as well.

Always There
12-28-2009, 04:50 AM
This is sad.

Too many feel too righteous.

I think I'm taking a break from this forum as it's not so much about supporting TFC as it is about being a part of a group.

So much talk about supporters being on control of seats and non members being moved out. I just don't get it.

I just go to have fun.

Pookie
12-28-2009, 08:40 AM
This is sad.

Too many feel too righteous.

I think I'm taking a break from this forum as it's not so much about supporting TFC as it is about being a part of a group.

...

I don't think the idea of controlling tickets or eliminating scalping is "too righteous." It is about attempting to ensure that the common good is protected.

The OP highlighted the issue fairly well IMO. The truth is simply this:

Scalping tickets is good for the individual but harms the collective. It is therefore imperative on supporters groups and passionate fans to self police the re-sale of tickets because no one else will.

Simple economics tells you that a STH that sells off extra tickets for a profit benefits from scalping.

But what the guys on the other end? I'm sure some would argue that it is a free market and supply and demand influence the scalper's price.

This is the argument usually offered from those on the selling side. My seats, if I can make money on them, who the fuck are you to tell me what to do?

2 points.

1. If you ever are on the buying side... say you need an extra ticket or worse... one day can't afford your seasons because MLSE has jacked the ST price up so much that you have to split them with friends... does the same argument still apply?

Wouldn't it have been better to work to keep prices down when you had the chance?

2. If you believe in "supply and demand" so much then you should realize that in a free market, external factors influence demand. We can't shut off your supply of tickets. But we can influence the number of people willing to buy from you.

If your prices drop as a result, well, that's the free market for ya.

torontocelt
12-28-2009, 08:48 AM
^^^ don't have a problem with people leaving early eh? Well I do. And I'll continue to yell abuse. The couple times I've had to duck out a few minutes early I apologized to ppls and took the crap that was thrown at me without having a hissy.

I got a great idea...How bout we all try and get a jump on traffic and the whole stadium leaves early. Better yet lets not even leave home. Brilliant!

As for scalpers.... fuck em. Let's get 100 guys together, go surround em, tell em to drop the tickets and walk. If they don't they get a beating. I don't think it would take many weeks for em to figure it out. Real simple.

G

I cannot see this working as we could all get in trouble with the police for intimidation / assault? What we should do is all chip in and we could employ a militia group for a few weeks and they could go down and rough up the scalpers, they would soon learn not to sell scalped tickets again. We could then use the scalped tickets to get the militia into the ground and if anyone tries to leave early they could break a few legs etc, after a few weeks of that no one will leave early to beat traffic. This is in my opinion a much better idea. We could also of course use super glue on peoples seats and then they would not be able to get up off them. The only way they could leave is to take off their bottoms or saw the seat off, even if they tried that the militia could still get them.:picard:

Canadian Blue
12-28-2009, 11:21 AM
^^^^ so you think a TFC Supporter group militia is a good idea to fight scalpers?? That is a very intellegent and grown-up way to deal with issues. Scalpers have been around long before TFC and will remain for many many years to come if not forever.

The major flaw with you plan......sure week one you may succeed slightly but try it again week 2 when the scalpers bring their buddies probably with guns or knives then see how well your tough-guy anti scalper campaign workd out for ya.

To clarify I am by no means making a personal attack but hopefully opening your eyes to the fact that violence or intimidation will not help the issue or erase the problem.

prizby
12-28-2009, 11:36 AM
I am getting a bit tired of reading about what CB does and doesn't do with his tickets. If he sells for over face, thats his perogative...many of us disagree with this, but hell this thread was not set up to discuss what CB does with his ticket...from what I have read, CB is a true supporter and I only hope that the ticket he sells in our section if he isn't using it goes to someone who will sing and chant the full 90

back to the topic about dealing with actual scalpers...you know the "assholes" who sell tickets for above face value on game day as they harass you while you walk to the game. I think the whole idea of this thread was to maybe come up with ways to deal with these scalpers and try to discourage them from holding tickets in our "designated" section.

Maybe what we could one time is during a march to the stadium, if we could circle a bunch of the scalpers that usually stand together just past the GO tracks, and start chanting "out with the scalpers" or something like that, find ways to push them back at least off EX Grounds and make them realize they aren't welcomed near our stadium...something like that (without and physical confrontation)...make it like a protest...if we cut off their supply to possible customers, maybe they'll learn to back off

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 11:37 AM
well I missed most of this thread when it was happening, but I ONE point to make:

The scalper problem can only be fixed by TFC FO / MLSE, and not by other people in the stands

getting in someone's face because they bought a scalped ticket will not solve anything.

redtfcred
12-28-2009, 11:40 AM
well I missed most of this thread when it was happening, but I ONE point to make:

The scalper problem can only be fixed by TFC FO / MLSE, and not by other people in the stands

getting in someone's face because they bought a scalped ticket will not solve anything.


You are smart man Parkdale !!!
respek

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 11:41 AM
Maybe what we could one time is during a march to the stadium, if we could circle a bunch of the scalpers that usually stand together just past the GO tracks, and start chanting "out with the scalpers" or something like that...



see my above point: The problem will not be solved by us, it can only be solved by MLSE/TFC.

as a side note: scalpers have connections to organized crime, and the idea of our group confronting them is ludicrous. It would be putting us in harms way, over an issue we can't solve. There's an old expression about Picking your battles and this isn't one we should get into.

Kaz
12-28-2009, 12:05 PM
Like the scalping issue, the true supporter vs secondary fan debate, is an issue that has come up quite often. While there are a lot of poorly thought out statements made about this issue, the consensus is that there are many ways to support your team and none is any more valid than another.
Most of the time, when you read about true supporters vs the unaffiliated, it isn't really meant to convey the idea that affiliated supporters are better than anyone else. We all know that there is dead weight in our numbers, and many fine supporters who are not part of our group. When these statements are made, the idea is usually that there is a higher chance of getting someone who will stand and chant with us if they come from our own ranks. There are many peolpe who come into 112 for a game or two, who sing their hearts out, and do their level best to keep their end up when it comes to vocalizing our support. There are also many who come in, not knowing what they were getting when they got the tickets, and they end up complaing to those around them, or commenting about what they don't like about the section.

I should have indicated that it seems to be a small but vocal minority. But like the anti-scapling issue that says its those fake fans that don't deserve tickets, are paying more and causing prices to rise and I shouldn't have to pay more because I'm a true fan. (which is what the initial post was saying to me, is just as bad as scalping, its just as harmful)

People have talked about harassing scalpers so the can't sell, which would leave (if it worked) hundreds of empty seats. All so the real fans can chant with out someone sitting in 112. Meaning fans in other sections complain about how "fairweather" fans in none support sections complain to security that the are standing and chanting.

Its a pattern that a small group of "supporters" seem to want the stadium to themselves.

Really the Firms need to get together and create a long term plan to bring the south end under supporter control, removing the need for supporter sections in other areas (minus NEE who i doubt would want to move) solving multiple issues. But that needs to be a long term goal, and one that is presented as such, and present as often as need.

Otherwise anyother solution is just going to hurt other fans from seeing the game, either because some lone rowdie RPB sitting in 106 is disturbing SSHs who may be just as passionate but more reserved. which is ruining the experience they want.

In the end the easiest but not complete fix is to draw up a five year plan with MLSE to move SSH who are not in a Firm, from bottom 3/4 of the south end. Remove all but 127 as support sections and give the Firms control over electronic ticket sales in the south end, and eventually set up a firm box office which requires proof of membership. This will help prevent scalping in the south end. Allow the people that wish that experience to get those seats, and allows the fans that would like to sit to do so in peace, and will be more likely to chant as the aren't annoyed by the people blocking their view.

This option does several things for MLSE, as it will likely improve to overall experience for all fans, lower scalping prices Online and hopefully makeing life easier for security.

Its long term.

It doesn't involve harassing people, which most likely not work well anyway. (many scalpers are buying tickets at lower then face, selling them at face and making profit with out breaking the law.) Harassment however...

It doesn't involving being rude to people at the match ruining the experience for them.

It only involves positive methods and ways to increase everyones enjoyment.

Sorta like getting the AV team at BMO to actually put up the words to the chants on the big board when they are being sung.

It's just so frustrating to see so many people on these boards (with that RPB tag) talking about how the fake fans, and the fairweather fans are just ruining BMO. Because it makes the whole group sound like Douche's sometimes.. (I realize that isn't the case of course, Thanks to people like Parkdale, JDG, and so many others who are just remarkable. But it's tough sometimes because there is seldom anything constructive in the threads.)

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 12:30 PM
It only involves positive methods and ways to increase everyones enjoyment.

Sorta like getting the AV team at BMO to actually put up the words to the chants on the big board when they are being sung.

I disagree with that one point. Why?

To put it really simply.... being a supporter means you 'put in work' on gameday. That 'work' doesn't have to be hard, and in most cases it's lots of fun, but something like learning the lyrics to the chants, and singing along is the bare minimum that people should do. If people have the time and energy to go beyond that (and into banners, etc etc), that's great too!

I just don't like the idea of putting the words on the big screen. The chants are something that you learn by being involved with. Everyone knows the words to the massive (even though they are in french). I've heard people in non-supporter sections (like 223 to be specific) butchering the lyrics to the simplest chants, simply because they don't put in any work to improving the gameday experience and supporting the team

anyway, sorry if this is turning in to a tangent, but I like that the team is leaving the 'job' of supporting the team to us, and not putting lyrics up on the boards. Now if they would just stop doing that Jack Astors Fan makeover thing at the half. That's just embarrassing to all of us.

Pookie
12-28-2009, 12:37 PM
well I missed most of this thread when it was happening, but I ONE point to make:

The scalper problem can only be fixed by TFC FO / MLSE, and not by other people in the stands

getting in someone's face because they bought a scalped ticket will not solve anything.

Agreed on the implied use of violence part.

But there is another way to fix the scalping problem.

Scalpers exist because people want to buy tickets and they want to sell them.

Since the majority of the public believes there is no alternative, they capture the demand and charge whatever they can get.

If you offer an alternative marketplace (as we do here) that the general public knew about, it would drive demand to places where tickets could be exchanged by like minded individuals, at cost.

Competition drives down prices.

There are a couple of ways to do this.

1. Consider opening up the TFC Official Ticket exchange to the general public a few days before a match.

2. Create a Supporters Group "Supersite" in which the ticket exchanges amongst SG's become larger and spread by word of mouth (or other means).

BuSaPuNk
12-28-2009, 12:40 PM
1. Consider opening up the TFC Official Ticket exchange to the general public a few days before a match.

That is a great idea. They already do holds a week or two before games. But they should also open up the ticketexchange on game day to the general public. Or allow the tickets on the exchange to be sold at the gate if they are not bought before the two hour cut off time.

Always There
12-28-2009, 12:43 PM
What could the possible percentage of scalped tickets be? I would guess about 3%. Of the small percentage of people who get scalper tickets, what percentage of those people are bad supporters?

Is this really an important issue? Nobody is ever going to stop scalpers. Not ever.

I can't believe when people say things like they are being harassed by scalpers. They don't go to BMO to harass anyone. They ask you if you're buying or selling. If you aren't doing either, that's the end of it. I don't like scalpers, but I don't need to pretend they're the boogeyman either.

I think I'm removing my name from the RPB forum right now. I somehow find myself constantly bewildered at the statements being made. I didn't realize what was going on here. There's just too much concern with everybody doing the same thing. Some seem to want conformity and an awful lot of control over things.

Remember, it's a game. It's fun to go to BMO and celebrate. Enjoy whatever it is that you do and if others do something different, good for them.

Good bye.

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 12:46 PM
truth is ---- almost everyone knows that there are still walkups available for most every game (non Friendlies), so you can just skip the scalpers and go to the box office.

There's no way it would happen, but if TFC put up a notice on the main website that said Walkup tickets still available then people would know to skip the scalpers, but it wouldn't look good to advertise that the stadium isn't sold out.

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 12:49 PM
What could the possible percentage of scalped tickets be? I would guess about 3%. Of the small percentage of people who get scalper tickets, what percentage of those people are bad supporters?

Is this really an important issue? Nobody is ever going to stop scalpers. Not ever.


Good bye.


the issue isn't scalped seats in the whole stadium, it's scalped seats IN 112, (and 111 / 113) that are in the heart of the supporters section. No one gives a shit about scalped seats in the reds, or the club seats. That's not our problem.




see you around,

Kaz
12-28-2009, 12:52 PM
truth is ---- almost everyone knows that there are still walkups available for most every game (non Friendlies), so you can just skip the scalpers and go to the box office.

There's no way it would happen, but if TFC put up a notice on the main website that said Walkup tickets still available then people would know to skip the scalpers, but it wouldn't look good to advertise that the stadium isn't sold out.
I actually didn't know this fact until mid way through last season. I just stayed away from the Stadium for the first two seasons because I didn't think I could get a ticket, without paying 3 times face from a scalper.

As for the Chants.. I think most of the stadium would actually join in, those that don't want to spend hours learning a chant... being apart of a firm and making that commitment should require some homework. But the 20,000 fans in the stadium don't all agree, and might be willing to chant along if they actually new the words ;)

Pookie
12-28-2009, 12:55 PM
^ there are ways to do that though that make the FO look good. Call it a game day release or create some buzz around it.

The Leafs have done that this year with "The Last Minute Club." It is worded like this:

Thanks to our new Leafs Last Minute Club, we can distribute tickets to more fans than ever.

We will be releasing a limited number of tickets 48 and 24 hours prior to select games, as well as on game days...so be sure to check back often! Tickets are available on Ticketmaster and will vary in price and seat location.

Click here to sign up for the Leafs Last Minute Club and you'll be one of the first to know about Leafs tickets as they become available to purchase. This club is the only way to know first when tickets are released!

I'm not so sure that the general public knows about game day walk ups. I'd wager that most people want to be assured they are going to the game. They probably buy weeks in advance. They would check your ebays, stubhubs or kijiji sites looking for the guaranteed ticket (somehow thinking they won't get a fake one).

---

Agreed on your other point about taking time to learn the chants. I've got an 8, 5 and 3 year old. They ALL know the chants and the majority of the songs. It ain't hard if you have passion.

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 01:04 PM
What could the possible percentage of scalped tickets be? I would guess about 3%. Of the small percentage of people who get scalper tickets, what percentage of those people are bad supporters?

Is this really an important issue? Nobody is ever going to stop scalpers. Not ever.

I can't believe when people say things like they are being harassed by scalpers. They don't go to BMO to harass anyone. They ask you if you're buying or selling. If you aren't doing either, that's the end of it. I don't like scalpers, but I don't need to pretend they're the boogeyman either.

I think I'm removing my name from the RPB forum right now. I somehow find myself constantly bewildered at the statements being made. I didn't realize what was going on here. There's just too much concern with everybody doing the same thing. Some seem to want conformity and an awful lot of control over things.

Remember, it's a game. It's fun to go to BMO and celebrate. Enjoy whatever it is that you do and if others do something different, good for them.

Good bye.

So after fifty six different incarnations, and god knows how many different IP addresses, all the board had to do to get rid of you was complain about scalpers?

Who knew?

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 01:06 PM
So after fifty six different incarnations, and god knows how many different IP addresses, all the board had to do to get rid of you was complain about scalpers?

Who knew?


that's why they call him Always There.

Always There
12-28-2009, 01:17 PM
So after fifty six different incarnations, and god knows how many different IP addresses, all the board had to do to get rid of you was complain about scalpers?

Who knew?

Hey bud, remember the time you got busted for a quarter of pot at Lamport before the first Montreal game? Remember that some good hearted strangers gave you the little bit of pot they had to help you out? Remember those strangers smoked you up too, and the group chatted and everything was cool...until we had to split from the cops again?

I do.

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 01:25 PM
Shit was that you?

You should look me up, I owe you a favour.

I cant return favours to people who remain anonymous however.

Happy new year.

Ian.

AL-MO
12-28-2009, 02:26 PM
As for the Chants.. I think most of the stadium would actually join in, those that don't want to spend hours learning a chant... being apart of a firm and making that commitment should require some homework. But the 20,000 fans in the stadium don't all agree, and might be willing to chant along if they actually new the words ;)

I really can't take you very serious when you make statements like this.

Calling the groups 'Firms' doesn't really help either.

Those who want to know the lyrics will make the effort to 'learn'. Those who do not want to make the effort won't. I am really not that concerned with the second group.

torontocelt
12-28-2009, 03:09 PM
^^^^ so you think a TFC Supporter group militia is a good idea to fight scalpers?? That is a very intellegent and grown-up way to deal with issues. Scalpers have been around long before TFC and will remain for many many years to come if not forever.

The major flaw with you plan......sure week one you may succeed slightly but try it again week 2 when the scalpers bring their buddies probably with guns or knives then see how well your tough-guy anti scalper campaign workd out for ya.

To clarify I am by no means making a personal attack but hopefully opening your eyes to the fact that violence or intimidation will not help the issue or erase the problem.

Jesus christ, you actually interpreted my post as being serious!

Mikey
12-28-2009, 03:19 PM
Having it taken seriously by someone made it even funnier.

Personally I think it's a great idea, as the spinoff monies from new RPB merch such as bullet proof vests, and TFC themed shivs could go a long way to funding additional seats for surviving members......

Put me down for a nickel plated Danny Dichio monogramed desert eagle!

Parkdale
12-28-2009, 04:11 PM
Put me down for a nickel plated Danny Dichio monogramed desert eagle!

sorry, they're sold out.
Maybe I can interest you in a Jeff Cunningham 'Shock and Stun' tazer?

Pookie
12-28-2009, 04:19 PM
sorry, they're sold out.
Maybe I can interest you in a Jeff Cunningham 'Shock and Stun' tazer?

^ is this the same one available on columbus.police.kijiji.com?

torontocelt
12-28-2009, 04:53 PM
what about the danny dichio 'You've no hair and I don't care' skull scalper knife specifically designed to scalp scalpers.

Kaz
12-28-2009, 05:50 PM
I really can't take you very serious when you make statements like this.

Calling the groups 'Firms' doesn't really help either.

Those who want to know the lyrics will make the effort to 'learn'. Those who do not want to make the effort won't. I am really not that concerned with the second group.

sorry I picked that term up on these board from people calling you guys a firm..

good to know though... but there is the whole, everyone one should be like us mentality.

So you are saying that to be a True TFC supporter/fan I need to spend several hours of my own time to learn all the songs.. otherwise I don't matter.. good to know.

That is truely disappointing that the RPBs feel that the Chants they preform are of so little importance that they shouldn't become part of TFC culture, for all fans. Even those that would rather spend 2 hours with their families who aren't TFC fans, over learning Chants in their office.

Oh I'd like to mention that the idea came from an 80 year old grandmother from Scotland living in barrie I sat beside at my first game. Who said to me, I don't really know the chants of TFC like I did at home when I was a girl. it's too bad they aren't on that big screen like they do with the blue jays. (paraphrased it's been a long while) Guess she's not a real fan either, she likes football and gets out to a game a year.

Rudi
12-28-2009, 06:01 PM
*SIGH*

Why do people see things in such absolute, black and white terms?

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 06:02 PM
That's a nice slippery slope argument you've created there Kaz...that isn't want Al-Mo was saying.

JDG
12-28-2009, 06:51 PM
The efforts of the supporter groups is what drives the atmosphere in the stadium to a large extent. Without the groups there may be a lot of energy here and there, but it would, overall, be a much more sedate environment on game day.
Nobody expects the whole stadium to learn all of the chants. Most of us believe that if we're lucky, half of the stadium will latch onto something that we can call our own. If this happens in the first ten seasons I'll be thrilled, but I'm not holding my breath.
You Will Never Walk Alone wasn't picked up as an anthem in the KOP until the 60s? Liverpool was 80 or 90 years old by the time that happened.
We need to celbrate what we've accomplished in a short time without letting it go to our heads. We need to constantly work to up our game, and never decide the job is done.
We will gain nothing by forcing something down the throats of our fellow supporters/fans. Things need to catch on organically to be truly effective. What we do within the supporter groups is not the beall/end all - it's just the beginning, and hopefully the catalyst to something better.

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 07:10 PM
Oh I'd like to mention that the idea came from an 80 year old grandmother from Scotland living in barrie I sat beside at my first game. Who said to me, I don't really know the chants of TFC like I did at home when I was a girl. it's too bad they aren't on that big screen like they do with the blue jays. (paraphrased it's been a long while) Guess she's not a real fan either, she likes football and gets out to a game a year.

OK, do you really need several hours and an electronic scoreboard to learn the chants?

This is what the scoreboard would look like.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/allezboard-1.gif

Canadian Blue
12-28-2009, 07:26 PM
We need to celebrate what we've accomplished in a short time without letting it go to our heads.

Unfortunately for some here this is a difficult task.

The RPB/USector may be located in the Supporters section and yes maybe responsible for 90% of the atmosphere in the stadium but the other 19,500 people in the stadium are also supporters........if not those seats would be empty.

AL-MO
12-28-2009, 07:27 PM
sorry I picked that term up on these board from people calling you guys a firm..


Really? I have never heard anyone call RPB a "Firm". We sure as hell don't act like one.



So you are saying that to be a True TFC supporter/fan I need to spend several hours of my own time to learn all the songs.. otherwise I don't matter.. good to know.


No. I am not saying that at all. But you can interpret my earlier post as you like.

You don't have to take a night school course and study for an exam to learn them. There are users of this board who have kids who know all the chants FFS.

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 08:44 PM
We're kind of veering off course here. This thread is about scalpers. Let's try to get back on track.

There are plenty of seats in this 20,000 seat stadium for all kinds of fans. Old fans, young fans. Interested fans, only curious fans. New-timers, old-timers. Spectators and participants. Everyone wants to be called a supporter, and since there is no unanimous definition of what a supporter is, there is no use in trying to qualify people that way. We all have our own opinions as to what a supporter is. For some, a supporter is anyone who pays their money and shows up. For others, it encompasses a lot more. There is no use in vomiting this same argument over and over.

However, the OP was very specific about scalping in the bunker and how it compares to U-Sectors home section of 113.

With regards to scalping in this section we already know the answer to the question of whether TFC will do anything to rid it of scalpers...nothing will happen on that front. Therefore the only influence we have is to make sure that those who are not scalpers hopefully sell to people who are aware, cogniscent and amenable to contributing to the section the way we hope.

How people go about doing that is up to them...in my opinion the best chances of that are to sell to fellow members. Is that not likely the best way to accomplish that? But this is a free country, people will do with their tickets what they please. Let's just hope more often than not, it happens.

Canadian Blue
12-28-2009, 11:09 PM
in my opinion the best chances of that are to sell to fellow members. Is that not likely the best way to accomplish that?

Roogsy, this is a first but I do agree with you completely. Selling to fellow SG members is the best way to keep the atmosphere in the southend. Believe it or not that was one of the points I was trying to make in my original post.

Roogsy
12-28-2009, 11:57 PM
That's great. That's all my point ever was. Beyond that, I don't really have much to say about what people do with the tickets. Personally, I throw up my prawnies on Kijiji all the time hoping to get something extra for them. Never really get anything though, I think the shine has worn off TFC just a tad. I can barely get face value for them.

James17930
12-29-2009, 12:01 AM
truth is ---- almost everyone knows that there are still walkups available for most every game (non Friendlies), so you can just skip the scalpers and go to the box office.

There's no way it would happen, but if TFC put up a notice on the main website that said Walkup tickets still available then people would know to skip the scalpers, but it wouldn't look good to advertise that the stadium isn't sold out.

But that's the problem -- I don't think most people do know there are walk-ups available. Or even that batches are released 48 hours earlier or whatever. They don't advertise it enough at all.

I get your point about why they don't, but I think they really need to re-think this strategy and get the word out to the public more. Info on the website, ads in the papers etc.

Because the only message that ever seems to get out is 'sold out.' So I think a lot of casual fans just give up and don't bother with it.

Pookie
12-29-2009, 08:09 AM
^ I'd wager there will be a "TFC Last Minute Club" introduced in the near future... those unsold tickets represent lost revenue for the FO.

As for scalping, I'll continue to profess that there is an easy solution at the ready. A well publicized at cost ticket exchange is the answer. If you offer an alternative market, a cheaper ticket market, the buyers will choose it and scalpers would be out of business.

However, this easy solution only works IF people (in significant numbers) are willing to abandon individual profit motives for the sake of the collective good.

What we have here is nice but we will lose the long term battle if it does not grow outside this forum.

FluSH
12-29-2009, 08:50 AM
Damn... noone took a break over the holidays? I'm late for this party... but good thread... will read the rest and throw in my holiday pennies shortly.

brad
12-29-2009, 08:56 AM
I get your point about why they don't, but I think they really need to re-think this strategy and get the word out to the public more. Info on the website, ads in the papers etc.

Or, simply add this to the email that goes out weekly. Lots on non-ticket holders get those.


Because the only message that ever seems to get out is 'sold out.' So I think a lot of casual fans just give up and don't bother with it.Very true. I've lost count of the number of people that I've talked with that want to go to games, but think it's impossible without paying scalpers overly inflated prices.


^ I'd wager there will be a "TFC Last Minute Club" introduced in the near future... those unsold tickets represent lost revenue for the FO.

Directly these tickets represent lost revenue. However, there is also an artificial shortage of tickets contributing indirectly to the revenue as well. It would be trivial, and very cheap for them to get the word about unsold tickets out now (ie - email). I'd be pretty shocked if the folks in the FO hadn't taken this into account.

I do have a feeling you are right though, about the notion of a "Last Minute Club" - I think it will be central around the paid Membership notion that is floating around.


As for scalping, I'll continue to profess that there is an easy solution at the ready. A well publicized at cost ticket exchange is the answer. If you offer an alternative market, a cheaper ticket market, the buyers will choose it and scalpers would be out of business. You still have to keep those tickets out of the scalpers hands though. Look at the Blue Jays - scalpers get reams of tickets for next to nothing, sell them at a face value or below, and still make a profit.

Then there is also the notion of more desirable seats, group seating and game day availability. You have to make sure that people can still get into the South End, get the "good" seats, get four together, and also cater to the last minute folks that want to show up game day.


However, this easy solution only works IF people (in significant numbers) are willing to abandon individual profit motives for the sake of the collective good.And this is why it will never work.


What we have here is nice but we will lose the long term battle if it does not grow outside this forum.Very much agree. I think the battle is lost though as it is, and lobbying the government to change/enforce the rules is the only thing that is going to work.

The secondary ticket market is getting stronger, and going more mainstream.

GBV
12-29-2009, 10:15 AM
Merry Christmas man.


:D:D:D:D

FluSH
12-29-2009, 10:33 AM
Pair in 112 went up for grabs at re-location. Went to non-RPB. A simple phone call or email would have prevented that. But heavens no, that would have been un-democratic. Oh the humanity :rolleyes:

This example still gets under my skin. There are corporate seats that are sold in bulk to organizations/companies... why couldn't we have received a simple phone call to notifiy us or have these 112 tickets reserved for us?

Now we have TWO MORE scapler seats in 112 for 2010 that we need to deal with... Do you think the scalpers are warning buyers about the standing, chanting, and flag waving? How many situations did we have to diffuse in 112? With scalper seat buyers getting upset with the standing and jumping?

Scalper seats in 112 are a security concern. When will MLSE understand this? We regulate our own... no supporter will throw a flare in my direction hitting an unexpected fan... it's when these chumps start asking the scalpers for supporter seats to be cool for the day with shenanigans like throwing flares that we will have a problem.

MartinUtd
12-29-2009, 10:45 AM
^^ Don't you guys have face to face meetings with FO officials about this kind of stuff? How does the brass respond to the scalping dilemma when asked directly? Its easy for PB to play the fool on message boards, but its a lot harder in person (even if it is just the underlings)

Canadian Blue
12-29-2009, 11:58 AM
Now we have TWO MORE scapler seats in 112 for 2010 that we need to deal with...


This part of the major problem...........why do you assume that because the pair went to current non-RPB that they went to scalpers?? The people that bought those tickets could very well have been waiting 3 years to get into 112 and may even become member or better yet active members in the group.


As for scalping, I'll continue to profess that there is an easy solution at the ready. A well publicized at cost ticket exchange is the answer. If you offer an alternative market, a cheaper ticket market, the buyers will choose it and scalpers would be out of business.

And when those tickets are gone the scalpers will be able to sell the ones they have. Honestly if MLSE has not done anything about scalpers for their cashcow Maple Leafs and Raptors do you really think they are concerned about TFC?

Parkdale
12-29-2009, 11:59 AM
I think he's talking about the ones that Wagner saw at his relocation, where the guy actually said "I'm going to make some good money selling these seats" (or something to that effect)

FluSH
12-29-2009, 12:27 PM
This part of the major problem...........why do you assume that because the pair went to current non-RPB that they went to scalpers?? The people that bought those tickets could very well have been waiting 3 years to get into 112 and may even become member or better yet active members in the group.


I wouldn't assume... the guy that gave up the info on the boards clearly said he had spoken to the buyer who specifically stated that he was going to scalp them. He spoke with him minutes after the purchase.

Pookie
12-29-2009, 01:13 PM
And when those tickets are gone the scalpers will be able to sell the ones they have. Honestly if MLSE has not done anything about scalpers for their cashcow Maple Leafs and Raptors do you really think they are concerned about TFC?

I don't believe MLSE cares at all about scalping. It is good for their business. It also will help them justify ticket price hikes year in and year out and God forbid, a Personal Seat License. It will get to the point where your TFC seasons will require you to go in with a buddy and you'll get to half of the games if you are lucky.

Unless of course, you scalp a few and make back your investment. It's a long term reason why I think an at cost exchange is a valuable tool in trying to keep tickets in the hands of fans and out of corporations. It may help pressure to keep prices reasonable.

With respect to scalpers, the idea with a more public at cost ticket exchange is that you drive people there instead of online ticket brokers.

If that exchange were popular with both buyers and sellers, you'd decrease the value for a scalper to own seats at BMO and introduce risk into the equation.

Right now, a scalper buys seats because he knows he is very likely to unload them at a profit. If he had to compete with an at cost ticket exchange that was heavily used, he now has uncertainty. As you point out, he still might be able to sell off his seats if there are no public at cost tickets left but he now doesn't know for sure.

But even then, if there is a "last minute club" that people get wind of, he now has more risk.

I'm not advocating anything other than a little bit of a free market competition at legal prices. It won't be run by MLSE. It would have to be run by SGs who have the organization and the culture to make something like this work and overcome individual greed. We've proved we can do it here... if we all banded together... who knows?

brad, thanks for the thought provoking reply.

Mark in Ottawa
12-29-2009, 02:23 PM
Right now, a scalper buys seats because he knows he is very likely to unload them at a profit.

And because without a well known alternative to buying from them the organized criminals can ensure that ticket scarcity exists.

How so? By ensuring that tickets at cost prices remain scarce.

I have seen people wait until the last moment to approach a scalper thinking that the scalper would be desperate to part with the last few tickets they had left at cost, only to see the scalper offer em for "the marked up price or not at all". I have even seen a scalper set fire to a couple of tickets right in front of prospective "marks" to drive home the point. :(

AL-MO
12-29-2009, 02:34 PM
This part of the major problem...........why do you assume that because the pair went to current non-RPB that they went to scalpers?? The people that bought those tickets could very well have been waiting 3 years to get into 112 and may even become member or better yet active members in the group.


See Parkdale's response. We had guys next in line who would have grabbed those in a second. The guy was thrilled to get a pair in 112 to sell for profit all season long.

phonzo
12-29-2009, 02:55 PM
i shall stand on the chair of whoever bought said scalped seats.

ExiledRed
12-29-2009, 03:15 PM
does anybody know the seat number and row?

FluSH
12-29-2009, 03:25 PM
^
Wagner may recall...

Parkdale
12-29-2009, 03:43 PM
i shall stand on the chair of whoever bought said scalped seats.

as funny (and annoying) as that might be brah.... it's not a productive way to address the problem.


I personally think we should try to identify all the scalped seats in 112, just to make a point of being extra-super-friendly to the people in those seats. We should encourage them to get involved with the chants, and show them what support is all about. THEN we explain to them that being in 112 is not a passive, observational experience and that there is no room for tourists.

I bet will transform some people from only-on-gameday-fans, to real supporters.

Then maybe, if TFC FO actually pulls the seats from the scalpers, we might have people all lined up to buy them!

JDG
12-29-2009, 03:51 PM
as funny (and annoying) as that might be brah.... it's not a productive way to address the problem.


I personally think we should try to identify all the scalped seats in 112, just to make a point of being extra-super-friendly to the people in those seats. We should encourage them to get involved with the chants, and show them what support is all about. THEN we explain to them that being in 112 is not a passive, observational experience and that there is no room for tourists.

I bet will transform some people from only-on-gameday-fans, to real supporters.

Then maybe, if TFC FO actually pulls the seats from the scalpers, we might have people all lined up to buy them!


Better yet - why don't we offer some incentive to the rubes who bought from the scalper to lodge an official complaint with the police and the ticket office.
I was told that this is the only way meaningful action can be taken against the scalper.
If the person complains that they were charged more than face value for the tickets, and can identify the person who sold them, the police must take action.
If the police are diligent, and follow the trail of hands that the tickets passed through, back to the person who has their name on the contract with MLSE, charges can be laid, and MLSE lawyers will be in a better position to take the rights to the seats away.

I'd be willing to look for tickets to more games for anyone who successfully takes such action.

Parkdale
12-29-2009, 04:07 PM
that's a good plan. We can only win if we work within the rules of the system.

Roogsy
12-29-2009, 04:37 PM
Better yet - why don't we offer some incentive to the rubes who bought from the scalper to lodge an official complaint with the police and the ticket office.
I was told that this is the only way meaningful action can be taken against the scalper.
If the person complains that they were charged more than face value for the tickets, and can identify the person who sold them, the police must take action.
If the police are diligent, and follow the trail of hands that the tickets passed through, back to the person who has their name on the contract with MLSE, charges can be laid, and MLSE lawyers will be in a better position to take the rights to the seats away.

I'd be willing to look for tickets to more games for anyone who successfully takes such action.

I would offer up a pair of tickets to a game to whoever buys from a scalper for seats in 112, complains and gets them taken away from the scalper!

Pookie
12-29-2009, 04:56 PM
Better yet - why don't we offer some incentive to the rubes who bought from the scalper to lodge an official complaint with the police and the ticket office.
I was told that this is the only way meaningful action can be taken against the scalper.
If the person complains that they were charged more than face value for the tickets, and can identify the person who sold them, the police must take action.
If the police are diligent, and follow the trail of hands that the tickets passed through, back to the person who has their name on the contract with MLSE, charges can be laid, and MLSE lawyers will be in a better position to take the rights to the seats away.


I think it is a great idea.

Key to the whole thing though, if charges are brought forward, is your last comment, "MLSE lawyers will be in a better position to take the rights to the seats away."

Does TFC FO have a policy in place to address this? ie. a warning that anyone convicted of scalping tickets will have their ticket rights forfeited?

If not, MLSE might not want to touch it as the ticket holder might fight any forced removal of their ticket rights.

Of course, public pressure could always be brought forward to get their lawyers involved. That part might need to be plan b).

JDG
12-29-2009, 05:11 PM
I think it is a great idea.

Key to the whole thing though, if charges are brought forward, is your last comment, "MLSE lawyers will be in a better position to take the rights to the seats away."

Does TFC FO have a policy in place to address this? ie. a warning that anyone convicted of scalping tickets will have their ticket rights forfeited?

If not, MLSE might not want to touch it as the ticket holder might fight any forced removal of their ticket rights.

Of course, public pressure could always be brought forward to get their lawyers involved. That part might need to be plan b).


I had a conversation in the first season with one of the TFC staff, and was told that there might be a will to take seats from scalpers if identified, but the Legal department was too unsure of the possible backlash. They weren't sure they had the right to arbitrarily choose to cancel the contract.
If the courts convict the scalper, I think the MLSE Legal Department will have a solid justification.

MartinUtd
12-29-2009, 05:33 PM
I had a conversation in the first season with one of the TFC staff, and was told that there might be a will to take seats from scalpers if identified, but the Legal department was too unsure of the possible backlash. They weren't sure they had the right to arbitrarily choose to cancel the contract.
If the courts convict the scalper, I think the MLSE Legal Department will have a solid justification.

Even if the "legal right" to take tickets away is not so clear, they would still be able to prevent such a person from renewing the following year. I think you can file that under "the least we can ask for."

James17930
12-29-2009, 10:30 PM
I was told that this is the only way meaningful action can be taken against the scalper.
If the person complains that they were charged more than face value for the tickets, and can identify the person who sold them, the police must take action.
If the police are diligent, and follow the trail of hands that the tickets passed through, back to the person who has their name on the contract with MLSE, charges can be laid, and MLSE lawyers will be in a better position to take the rights to the seats away.

Really? I'm not doubting you, but that seems really weird. Because if scalping is illegal, isn't it also illegal to purchase scalped tickets?

Wouldn't it be like complaining to the cops because a hooker gave you herpes?

Toronto Ruffrider
12-30-2009, 01:00 AM
Really? I'm not doubting you, but that seems really weird. Because if scalping is illegal, isn't it also illegal to purchase scalped tickets?

Wouldn't it be like complaining to the cops because a hooker gave you herpes?

Purchasing scalped tickets is illegal, I'm pretty sure. Complaining to a cop after the fact won't solve anything.

DichioTFC
12-30-2009, 03:21 AM
My $0.02:


Put the scalpers tickets in the hands of the various supporter groups in those respective areas. Each group has a budget and moderate organization, they can create the demand for the seats and organize it in such a way that only the loudest will be allowed to attend (i.e. disruptive, un-cooperative people are forbidden from purchasing these tickets). Hell, it can be run auction-style with seats going to the highest bidder, therefore generating greater revenue for the supporter groups, easily allowing them to profit.

The obvious problem is How do we get the scalper's tickets in the first place? But still, idealistically, thats my suggestion. If somehow MLSE can get involved in the process, it can seriously assist local market-share, justify raising ticket prices (give them a real model of the value of each seat), and keep the exclusive nature that members of supporter groups love so much.

Just a thought.

DichioTFC
12-30-2009, 03:24 AM
Purchasing scalped tickets is illegal, I'm pretty sure. Complaining to a cop after the fact won't solve anything.

I think purchasing scalped tickets is legal, but selling them for higher than face value is illegal. Thats why the scalpers at Blue Jays games ask "Who's selling?" This is legal.

Canadian Blue
12-30-2009, 08:11 AM
I wouldn't assume... the guy that gave up the info on the boards clearly said he had spoken to the buyer who specifically stated that he was going to scalp them. He spoke with him minutes after the purchase.

Sorry, I didn't know

Mark in Ottawa
12-30-2009, 08:20 AM
I think purchasing scalped tickets is legal, but selling them for higher than face value is illegal. Thats why the scalpers at Blue Jays games ask "Who's selling?" This is legal.

Wrong. Purchasing a ticket above its face value from other than a recognized ticket agent for the event is illegal.

Reference: The Ontario Ticket Speculation Act
http://www.canadalegal.com/gosite.asp?s=1892

Parkdale
12-30-2009, 08:57 AM
Wrong. Purchasing a ticket above its face value from other than a recognized ticket agent for the event is illegal.

Reference: The Ontario Ticket Speculation Act
http://www.canadalegal.com/gosite.asp?s=1892

it's such a bullshit law, it makes me really mad.

Ticketmaster can operate Stubhub, which is a 'recognized ticket agent' but it's nothing more than bidding (scalping) tickets. Hell.... just look at the Olympic hockey tickets! It's a fucking embarrassment to the entire country.

http://www.showtimetickets.com/eventInstance.do?method=load&id=1150677

The cheapest price going for the Men's Hockey final is $3,200+ per seat, and good seats are $4,800+.

And this is from a "recognized ticket agent" I call bullshit.

James17930
12-30-2009, 11:08 AM
^Holy fuck, I'll say.

That's total racketeering.

TFCtoMUFC
12-30-2009, 11:15 AM
Purchasing scalped tickets is illegal, I'm pretty sure. Complaining to a cop after the fact won't solve anything.

I do not think we can nab someone trying to sell for 2000 or whatever because no transaction has happened. I would gladly buy a pair of scalper tickets in 112, but what are the odds that another scalper gets them?

Toronto Ruffrider
12-30-2009, 11:45 AM
I think purchasing scalped tickets is legal, but selling them for higher than face value is illegal. Thats why the scalpers at Blue Jays games ask "Who's selling?" This is legal.

That's precisely what I mean. It is legal to sell tickets at or under face value. This practice happens all of the time at Blue Jays games, where scalpers routinely purchase tickets from subscribers for well under face value, then flip them for close to face. In such instances, it is possible for scalpers to make a buck without breaking the law.

Roogsy
12-30-2009, 11:48 AM
That's precisely what I mean. It is legal to sell tickets at or under face value. This practice happens all of the time at Blue Jays games, where scalpers routinely purchase tickets from subscribers for well under face value, then flip them for close to face. In such instances, it is possible for scalpers to make a buck without breaking the law.

Exactly...in fact that is what we do on this board.

Toronto Ruffrider
12-30-2009, 11:54 AM
Just to add another 2 cents to this issue, although the FO may benefit from scalping vis a vis the supply and demand of tickets, there are ways in which scalping hurts the club's bottom line. If scalping results in a net reduction in the number of people who attend TFC games, then the club loses revenue from concessions and parking. Given how much money fans spend once they're at BMO Field, these revenue streams cannot be ignored.

Mark in Ottawa
12-30-2009, 01:13 PM
it's such a bullshit law, it makes me really mad.

Ticketmaster can operate Stubhub, which is a 'recognized ticket agent' but it's nothing more than bidding (scalping) tickets. Hell.... just look at the Olympic hockey tickets! It's a fucking embarrassment to the entire country.

http://www.showtimetickets.com/eventInstance.do?method=load&id=1150677

The cheapest price going for the Men's Hockey final is $3,200+ per seat, and good seats are $4,800+.

And this is from a "recognized ticket agent" I call bullshit.

BS indeed. The on-line ticket sellers get around the law as sellers because they are not "selling" within the province but from servers in other jurisdictions. It is a complicated legal question as to if we should kick companies like Ticketmaster out of Ontario when they can continue to sell on-line. The law is dated 1990 (pre popular internet) and so obviously needs updating.

Note the law is provincial and references to the Olympics may not be appropriate since the event is not being held in the province.

I agree though... the markups are an obvious sign that organized crime is alive and well in Canada.

Pookie
12-30-2009, 01:48 PM
So, the law states it is illegal to buy or sell tickets above face value. Didn't know about the "buy" part.

But the law also states it is illegal to ..."purchase a ticket with the intent to sell it for a profit." I'm not a lawyer but it would appear that a buy/sell transaction isn't necessary. Simply listing the ticket above face value should demonstrate "intent to sell it for a profit."

For example, this guy listing his 106 seats on Kijiji @ $5,000
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tickets-FC-Season-Tickets-209-2010-Front-Row-Section-106-W0QQAdIdZ172375161

Seems as though that description would also fit the 112 guy if a complaint was made. All you'd need to do would be find a listing where he lists or communicates to you that the price is above face.

In fact, it would seemingly fit the description of the majority of kijiji/ebay/stubhubbers in the TO area.

Maybe someone from the executive could hook up with a detective and explore what could be done. The majority of us know how to use the interwebz to find questionable listings.

If identifying and lodging a complaint against those that have an intent to sell it for a profit is all that is necessary, well, maybe cracking down isn't as difficult a task as it would seem.

brad
12-30-2009, 02:41 PM
When I commented earlier that the secondary ticket market is getting stronger, and going more mainstream - this was the final nail as I saw it in any attempt to stem this through non-politcal means:

https://tickets.vancouver2010.com/buy/TicketSales?agency=OLMP_MYTIXX

Ticket Auctions (ie Scalpling) for the Olympics, on the Official Web site, endorsed by the Olympics...

Canadian Blue
12-30-2009, 02:47 PM
So, the law states it is illegal to buy or sell tickets above face value. Didn't know about the "buy" part.

But the law also states it is illegal to ..."purchase a ticket with the intent to sell it for a profit." I'm not a lawyer but it would appear that a buy/sell transaction isn't necessary. Simply listing the ticket above face value should demonstrate "intent to sell it for a profit."

For example, this guy listing his 106 seats on Kijiji @ $5,000
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tickets-FC-Season-Tickets-209-2010-Front-Row-Section-106-W0QQAdIdZ172375161

Seems as though that description would also fit the 112 guy if a complaint was made. All you'd need to do would be find a listing where he lists or communicates to you that the price is above face.

In fact, it would seemingly fit the description of the majority of kijiji/ebay/stubhubbers in the TO area.

Maybe someone from the executive could hook up with a detective and explore what could be done. The majority of us know how to use the interwebz to find questionable listings.

If identifying and lodging a complaint against those that have an intent to sell it for a profit is all that is necessary, well, maybe cracking down isn't as difficult a task as it would seem.

I appreciate your ideas and thought process but do you honestly believe our police/judicial system do not have more pressing issues to pursue than the scalping of sporting event tickets??

Parkdale
12-30-2009, 02:55 PM
I appreciate your ideas and thought process but do you honestly believe our police/judicial system do not have more pressing issues to pursue than the scalping of sporting event tickets??

that argument could be made about any number of things.

People growing their own pot, pirate dvds, counterfeit purses, turning left during rushhour...

there's a million things that the police could NOT be doing, but that's not really the question here.

Canadian Blue
12-30-2009, 03:04 PM
Agreed, all those things may be just as trivial as scalping, thank you for helping me make my point. I would rather see the unsolved murders and child molestation cases solved than have our courts dealing with scalpers brought to justice by the righteous TFC supporters.....

Parkdale
12-30-2009, 03:11 PM
what matters to people is what effects them in their own life.

It would be really easy for TFC to step up and fix the problem in 111-112-113 and call it a day.

Hell, they could even offer to relocate people in-out of the section if they cared to. Easy.

werewolf
12-30-2009, 03:11 PM
if their are going to be 20+ cops standing around the stadium on gamedays, they might as well do something productive.

Pookie
12-30-2009, 03:24 PM
Agreed, all those things may be just as trivial as scalping, thank you for helping me make my point. I would rather see the unsolved murders and child molestation cases solved than have our courts dealing with scalpers brought to justice by the righteous TFC supporters.....

As would all of us.

That said, that's not how the force is set up. Not every available cop is assigned to murders and catching pedophiles.

Some are assigned to other tasks and like one of Toronto's finest, assigned between 7 and 9am to catch honourable members of this group who happen make a left hand turn on to Dundas street during the week.

I'd rather that guy was working on a murder case but he wasn't.

I get that they are busy folks and fining a scalper probably doesn't impact the common good in the way that apprehending a terrorist might.

That said, many of us have been fined for minor offenses (such as parking, speeding, etc). If there is no point in enforcing any of these finable offenses, let's just get rid of them all.

brad
12-30-2009, 03:26 PM
if their are going to be 20+ cops standing around the stadium on gamedays, they might as well do something productive.

Game, set and match :)

T-Bird
12-30-2009, 08:28 PM
112
Row 10
seats 8&9 (or whatever the two closest to the isle are

100% owned by a scalper.
Wagner can confirm.
I doubt you will see the same people in those seats consecutively next season.

Canadian Blue
12-30-2009, 11:29 PM
It is possible that simply because someone different is in a certain seat for each game that the owner of said ticket is not a scalper. I sold at face value or gave away about 95% of my tickets last season........

AL-MO
12-30-2009, 11:56 PM
It is possible that simply because someone different is in a certain seat for each game that the owner of said ticket is not a scalper. I sold at face value or gave away about 95% of my tickets last season........

CB - I dug around and found Wagner's post about this.


Just got back.

To anyone on the fence....go.

a pair in 112 went up when I got there.
I was dumbfounded.

The downside....

a scalper bought the pair.
He was 12 positions higher than me.

112, row 10, seats 6 and 7 are now in the hands of a scalper. And he told me that he was happy that those tix will go for a premium.

This douche had 6 together in 106, and bought 3 pairs in the south end.
I'm fuming right now.
he now has pairs in 112, 114, and 117.
I would have taken either of his 112 or 114 pair.
but because he was 130 and i was 140 on the list, he has all 3 pairs in the south end.

I'm sooooo mad right now.
i told the guys at the ticket hut, and they said they didn't care and that it didn't matter.

I'm so bummed, i was this close to finally being in the bunker, and I'd be happy if it was another supporter...but a scalper has them....grrrrrrr.

I'm so frustrated right now.

I will always be the last in my group....

Brooker
12-31-2009, 12:24 AM
this is my last season as a STH. i'm done.

after 3 seasons ive realized it isn't worth the trouble.

AL-MO
12-31-2009, 12:27 AM
this is my last season as a STH. i'm done.

after 3 seasons ive realized it isn't worth the trouble.

Care to elaborate?

Brooker
12-31-2009, 12:34 AM
let's just say i don't pay close to face value..... and i've met a few people in 112 aswell that are in the same boat.

Yagbod
12-31-2009, 01:01 AM
if Brooker is not going to elaborate, could someone else? I am confused.

Brooker
12-31-2009, 02:43 PM
I did. I said there are people, myself included, who are paying way over face value to be in 112.

FluSH
12-31-2009, 02:46 PM
^^^
Well If I ever have extras and/or can't make it I usually let them go for face value, below face value, or free to RPB members... this year will be different for me as I have given my tix to my brothers so they stop bothering last minute for 4-5 tickets

Brooker
12-31-2009, 03:14 PM
haha! so that's who your always trying to get last minutes for. :)

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
12-31-2009, 03:48 PM
I did. I said there are people, myself included, who are paying way over face value to be in 112.


If your paying way over the cost for TFC games....its hard to believe. Your just not looking hard enough!..there is more then enough tickets up for sale in the the south end for every game.....sold right here at the RPB site!... and guess what...at cost or BELOW cost! and even the odd FREE tickets.....hours before the game....well not true...it might cost you a PINT!

It might not be directly in 112......but nothing holds anyone from getting your self to the southeast corner of BMO field each week! Just get a ticket in the south end...you'll figure it out on how to get into the 112-113 area!

Mark in Ottawa
12-31-2009, 04:05 PM
I did. I said there are people, myself included, who are paying way over face value to be in 112.
So... if you are paying way over face value then the tickets aren't in your name and you are not buying them from the club...
ergo you are not a seasons ticket holder.

Simply an ardent fan paying a premium price for the entertainment you desire.

If you do not buy them from whoever is selling odds are someone else will.
The real down side is that you have no real "hold" on the tickets and could end up being out bid or simply tossed aside if the seller gets a better offer.

Brooker
12-31-2009, 05:02 PM
first off, to the guy who said I'm not looking hard enough for tickets, you're a genius. of course im not looking hard. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF PAYING A LITTLE MORE! having said that, I haven't missed a single goal in the 3 year history. dear god, this is why people who don't want to waste time looking for tickets pay more.

of course im not technically a season ticket holder. but i do own tickets for the entire season is what I was getting at. although, as I am not dealing with scum scalpers, i can't be outbid or tossed aside... so I could stand infront of those seats for years to come and I don't really care who's name their in. the guy i buy from is a great guy and i'm happy giving my money to him.

all i was saying is yes, in 112 there are many people who have to pay more than face value to guarentee we have the same seats for every single game in the section/seat we want, and we don't have the headache of trying to find tickets every week.

i was answering the question in the thread. and the answer is yes, i overpay, and this is the last season i can afford to do so.

I, like some others, pay more so we don't have to bitch about Marlies tickets or which color I am in a line up of 15,000 people.

can you see where I'm coming from?

Pookie
12-31-2009, 05:05 PM
Best scalping story I've ever been a part of was years ago at a Jays game when they were winning.

It was around the 1992-93 season and the Jays were in the playoffs. Sold out.

Walking around, the fellows were hawking their marked up tickets at insane prices. We were standing close to a guy who was completing a transaction with a scalper.

A Cop walked up and I thought it was going to get interesting.

The Cop then asked what was going on and what the price of the tickets were. He said, before you answer, let me remind you that the fine for selling tickets above face value could be $5,000. Now, what's the price of the tickets you are selling?

The scalper was forced to sell them at cost.

Why can't that happen at BMO?

JDG
12-31-2009, 05:22 PM
Best scalping story I've ever been a part of was years ago at a Jays game when they were winning.

It was around the 1992-93 season and the Jays were in the playoffs. Sold out.

Walking around, the fellows were hawking their marked up tickets at insane prices. We were standing close to a guy who was completing a transaction with a scalper.

A Cop walked up and I thought it was going to get interesting.

The Cop then asked what was going on and what the price of the tickets were. He said, before you answer, let me remind you that the fine for selling tickets above face value could be $5,000. Now, what's the price of the tickets you are selling?

The scalper was forced to sell them at cost.

Why can't that happen at BMO?


Maybe we could enlist some "Personal Shoppers" from the ranks of the pay duty cops that are around every game.
Paul - would you be willing to foot the bill for an extra hour of pay duty for a few personal shoppers for a few games?

TFCtoMUFC
12-31-2009, 05:30 PM
Maybe we could enlist some "Personal Shoppers" from the ranks of the pay duty cops that are around every game.
Paul - would you be willing to foot the bill for an extra hour of pay duty for a few personal shoppers for a few games?

Undercover cops? That would be the best way to get them. Hire a few undercover cops to meet up with these dudes and then bam.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
12-31-2009, 06:40 PM
first off, to the guy who said I'm not looking hard enough for tickets, you're a genius. of course im not looking hard. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF PAYING A LITTLE MORE! having said that, I haven't missed a single goal in the 3 year history. dear god, this is why people who don't want to waste time looking for tickets pay more.

of course im not technically a season ticket holder. but i do own tickets for the entire season is what I was getting at. although, as I am not dealing with scum scalpers, i can't be outbid or tossed aside... so I could stand infront of those seats for years to come and I don't really care who's name their in. the guy i buy from is a great guy and i'm happy giving my money to him.

all i was saying is yes, in 112 there are many people who have to pay more than face value to guarentee we have the same seats for every single game in the section/seat we want, and we don't have the headache of trying to find tickets every week.

i was answering the question in the thread. and the answer is yes, i overpay, and this is the last season i can afford to do so.

I, like some others, pay more so we don't have to bitch about Marlies tickets or which color I am in a line up of 15,000 people.

can you see where I'm coming from?


the point is you dont have to look hard...there right in front of your f'in eyes....GENIUS...TICKET TRADER RPB!...

AL-MO
12-31-2009, 07:01 PM
Maybe we could enlist some "Personal Shoppers" from the ranks of the pay duty cops that are around every game.
Paul - would you be willing to foot the bill for an extra hour of pay duty for a few personal shoppers for a few games?

Good luck with that! :lol:

Brooker
12-31-2009, 07:07 PM
the point is you dont have to look hard...there right in front of your f'in eyes....GENIUS...TICKET TRADER RPB!...

the exact tickets I want are not in ticket trader.... if you calmed down for a minute or so to actually read what I said you'd understand.

Canadian Blue
01-01-2010, 05:29 PM
Oh no!!! What has this world come to, tickets bought above face value in the sacred land of the RPB.......whatever will we do???

Guys it is time to face facts......scalping/marking up tickets is just the way things happen, no big deal. I know there have been some ideas about how to stop it from happening but really......TFC has a lot more to worry about, like making the playoffs for a change. If they made the playoffs or better yet the MLS Cup I could give two shits if every seat in the house is owned by a scalper......

s2cazz
01-01-2010, 05:35 PM
Oh no!!! What has this world come to, tickets bought above face value in the sacred land of the RPB.......whatever will we do???

Guys it is time to face facts......scalping/marking up tickets is just the way things happen, no big deal. I know there have been some ideas about how to stop it from happening but really......TFC has a lot more to worry about, like making the playoffs for a change. If they made the playoffs or better yet the MLS Cup I could give two shits if every seat in the house is owned by a scalper......

the problem isn't the scalpers that are selling the tickets. It's the douchebags/tourists that are buying them.

TFCtoMUFC
01-01-2010, 06:37 PM
I emailed a guy on craigslist, asked him how much his tickets are, he said 2250, I told him thats way over face (for light grey's), he said good luck getting tickets.

Canadian Blue
01-01-2010, 08:44 PM
the problem isn't the scalpers that are selling the tickets. It's the douchebags/tourists that are buying them.

That is very intelligent, thanks for the insight.

So you call them douchebags/tourist because they are paying above face value......if someone wasn't interested in the team/game, do you really think they would pay top dollar? I bet alot of people that have been on the waiting list for 3 years buy scalper tickets regularly

It is really embarrassing to see that people consider non-STH as something less than equal

Pookie
01-01-2010, 08:53 PM
Guys it is time to face facts......scalping/marking up tickets is just the way things happen, no big deal. I know there have been some ideas about how to stop it from happening but really......TFC has a lot more to worry about, like making the playoffs for a change. If they made the playoffs or better yet the MLS Cup I could give two shits if every seat in the house is owned by a scalper......

Honest question here.

Over the next couple of years, we abandon the principle of trading at cost. The scalpers take over.

Under the new rules, TFC ends up qualifying for and hosting an MLS Cup which would be like a mini super bowl.

Tickets go on sale... not to STH... but to the general public.

You miss out.

The only way you can get in is to pay between $500 and $1,000 per seat.

You cool with that?

Always There
01-01-2010, 09:26 PM
Honest question here.

Over the next couple of years, we abandon the principle of trading at cost. The scalpers take over.

Under the new rules, TFC ends up qualifying for and hosting an MLS Cup which would be like a mini super bowl.

Tickets go on sale... not to STH... but to the general public.

You miss out.

The only way you can get in is to pay between $500 and $1,000 per seat.

You cool with that?

What are you talking about? That's a real doom and gloom scenario you're painting about a completely hypothetical situation.

Always There
01-01-2010, 09:53 PM
I can't believe that this topic is still going on. Scalpers are just a fact of life. What is all the fuss about? I think the atmosphere in 111/112 is great and I'm not really sure why the witch hunt is necessary. I can't imagine that everyone who decides to buy tickets off a scalper to be in the supporters section is going to be a bad fan. What's the problem?

There's no guarantee that if a scalper gives up his tickets an RPB or U Sector is going to get them, and who cares anyway? I have season seats and I'm not in any supporter group. Seemingly not too many around me are in the RPB or U Sector and things are just fine. Every game there are a couple people in the vicinity who look new, but it certainly never messes with the good times. I've talked to people who bought tickets on craigslist, and they were having a great time soaking the whole thing in. What's so bad about that?

Scalping isn't ever going to stop. To me this is a pick your battles kind of thing. Why worry about the maximum 5%, who may or may not be bad supporters? It's like there's always some crusade going on.

I also find it odd that so many seem to have extra seats. Why is that? Most seem not to care about who gets their extra tickets as long as it happens outside the supporters section.

I was going to leave, but cooler heads prevailed.

Oldtimer
01-01-2010, 10:01 PM
the problem isn't the scalpers that are selling the tickets. It's the douchebags/tourists that are buying them.

It's both.

Gixmo
01-01-2010, 11:33 PM
What are you talking about? That's a real doom and gloom scenario you're painting about a completely hypothetical situation.

.... How do you figure? (Honest question..)

I don't think, given all the fuss about BMO, that an MLS Cup is out of the question in our future and when it comes along, I cannot see the STH runnin' the roost when it comes to butt in seat attendance. Perhaps first choice, but then what happens to the remaining pairs.

Always There
01-01-2010, 11:41 PM
I would imagine they go up for sale. What's the problem? To me it's doom and gloom to get upset at the idea that tickets will go up for sale.

Canadian Blue
01-01-2010, 11:49 PM
^ I don't believe he was saying that the MLS Cup is hypothetical. I think he was referring the the ticket situation.

As for the scenario put forth by the earlier post........I may be misunderstanding but if we (I assume you are talking about RPB) cease the trade at cost idea, how would that effect what TFC does with the offer of playoff tickets?

Once again for the record I have no issue with the selling at face value idea, I just want people to stop complaining when someone decides to sell else where to gain a minimal profit. End of the day that ticket belongs to the individual, not the RPB.

Gixmo
01-02-2010, 12:20 AM
I would imagine they go up for sale. What's the problem? To me it's doom and gloom to get upset at the idea that tickets will go up for sale.

The problem? Tickets being sold is not doom and gloom - I agree with that. Let's try it this way.

You do not get first crack at your purchased seats up front in 111. Subsequently, you run into Joe Scalper out front of BMO. You can have your seats, at let's say $500 per seat. You ok with that? You feel entirely fine with the conversation. It's market demand, etc..

Hypothetically.. of course

I've read this thread daily, the left turns made here with people recanting opinions and throwing $0.02 into the pot is astounding.

CB: You've made your point a few times here already. The point that, at least I see others debating, is that 'minimal' is in the eyes of the beholder.. and $23 South End seats are not scalping for $23. What, in your opinion, is minimal there..

Now since I should likely throw out some long winded disclosure here, I'll simply state that I don't believe in supporting the scalpers from an entirely legal perspective only (So, it's not about price...) and would rather purchase my tickets when needed through the amply stocked TicketXchange in my account manager. 2 wrongs, never make a right.

Pookie
01-02-2010, 06:53 AM
^ I don't believe he was saying that the MLS Cup is hypothetical. I think he was referring the the ticket situation.

As for the scenario put forth by the earlier post........I may be misunderstanding but if we (I assume you are talking about RPB) cease the trade at cost idea, how would that effect what TFC does with the offer of playoff tickets?

Once again for the record I have no issue with the selling at face value idea, I just want people to stop complaining when someone decides to sell else where to gain a minimal profit. End of the day that ticket belongs to the individual, not the RPB.

Yes, you were misunderstanding.

In my scenario, you weren't able to purchase your ticket directly from the FO because of the nature of it being a big game. That has nothing to do with ticket exchanges. It's just hypothetical.

That could result from blocks of tickets being held for visiting support, corporate sponsors, league and media, etc. In the end, that hypothetical is just getting us to the point that you don't have access to a ticket directly from the team.

Since you didn't have a ticket to the game, you had to look to the secondary ticket market.

Since at cost exchanges disappeared as a result of an individual profit motive a long time ago, your only option to see the game is to buy from Joe on Craigslist at $500 to $1,000 per seat.

Is this ok with you?

Mark in Ottawa
01-02-2010, 09:55 AM
of course im not technically a season ticket holder. but i do own tickets for the entire season is what I was getting at. although, as I am not dealing with scum scalpers, i can't be outbid or tossed aside... so I could stand infront of those seats for years to come and I don't really care who's name their in. the guy i buy from is a great guy and i'm happy giving my money to him.

:smilielol5: Of course you can. What is to keep this great guy from taking a better offer next season. Or what if the team makes the playoffs and he decides to auction to the highest bidder? You have no rights at all!

In past people bought tickets from scalpers and then discovered they were worthless as they had been sold a second time on-line. Good luck in getting any assistance if you ever end up in a situation like that.

If you are happy with your current setup... more power to you.
Just be aware that you have no rights or protection if shit happens.

Pookie
01-02-2010, 10:15 AM
Scalping isn't ever going to stop. To me this is a pick your battles kind of thing. Why worry about the maximum 5%, who may or may not be bad supporters? It's like there's always some crusade going on.


What I can't understand is why does the stance that this group has taken on scalping, or crusade as you call it, so troubling to you?

Here you have a free market ticket exchange where buyers and sellers can meet and exchange funds for access privileges. The only rule is that the Law in Ontario be respected and tickets have a maximum price of face value.

If people weren't willing to supply tickets and/or buyers weren't willing to buy tickets, this... and shall I say it again...legal... exchange wouldn't exist.

What's the issue?

Always There
01-02-2010, 11:38 AM
What I can't understand is why does the stance that this group has taken on scalping, or crusade as you call it, so troubling to you?

Here you have a free market ticket exchange where buyers and sellers can meet and exchange funds for access privileges. The only rule is that the Law in Ontario be respected and tickets have a maximum price of face value.

If people weren't willing to supply tickets and/or buyers weren't willing to buy tickets, this... and shall I say it again...legal... exchange wouldn't exist.

What's the issue?

It's not troubling at all. Whenever I ask people if they have a problem with the atmosphere, or bring up the idea that it is a minimal percentage of seats that relate to this thread or, that of that minimal percentage classifying all who buy them as tourists or lousy supporters is just wrong, it's ignored. Lately the response is that somehow, because MLSE doesn't really care, there is a strong possibility that when the MLS Cup comes around I will be buying my tickets for $500 off of a scalper. I don't see the connection. I feel like the picture being painted is that the place is crawling with scalpers, and I don't see that.

I certainly have no problem with the RPB forum rules. It doesn't really apply to me. I'm just speaking about scalpers in general and specifically how it relates to 111/112. The legal thing is fine when you're talking about your forum, but in general I hardly think scalping is a serious crime.

I guess I don't have an issue other than I don't see the problem and I go to every game. Maybe there's different perceptions for different people. I think it's fun and usually the people who are new are there to have a fun time too.

v00d00daddy
01-02-2010, 12:02 PM
I hate the scalpers as much as the next person, and I've told several of them to go and fuck themselves, on several different dates, at several different venues..lol

What I don't get though, is how exactly the scenario would work where I would not get to purchase my seats for a game like the MLS Cup AND my seat would end up in the hands of a scalper.

Someone please explain this to me.

Why wouldn't I have first right of refusal for my seat like I did for the Real Madrid game?

Speaking of which...how many scalper haters in the supporters groups scalped their RM game tickets?

I wonder

Pookie
01-02-2010, 12:24 PM
What I don't get though, is how exactly the scenario would work where I would not get to purchase my seats for a game like the MLS Cup AND my seat would end up in the hands of a scalper.

Someone please explain this to me.

Why wouldn't I have first right of refusal for my seat like I did for the Real Madrid game?

I think everyone needs to look up the word "hypothetical" :)

The reason I painted a scenario like that is sometimes STH's have an attitude that says as long as I have my tickets, I don't care what scalpers do.

I wanted to highlight a situation in which a STH might have to look at things from a buyer's perspective to realize the benefits of supporting an at cost ticket exchange.

If TFC hosted an MLS Cup date, it is very likely you would have first right of refusal on your tickets. However, it is also plausible that they would hold back a number of seats for away support, corporate sponsors and other big wigs. So, while Gold Listers got an advanced window to purchase seats for friendlies, CCL and other games, I'll bet that they would have a tough time finding a ticket if all that came to pass for a MLS Cup.

Again. Hypothetical. No need to sound alarm bells.

Pookie
01-02-2010, 12:33 PM
It's not troubling at all. Whenever I ask people if they have a problem with the atmosphere, or bring up the idea that it is a minimal percentage of seats that relate to this thread or, that of that minimal percentage classifying all who buy them as tourists or lousy supporters is just wrong, it's ignored. Lately the response is that somehow, because MLSE doesn't really care, there is a strong possibility that when the MLS Cup comes around I will be buying my tickets for $500 off of a scalper. I don't see the connection. I feel like the picture being painted is that the place is crawling with scalpers, and I don't see that.

I certainly have no problem with the RPB forum rules. It doesn't really apply to me. I'm just speaking about scalpers in general and specifically how it relates to 111/112. The legal thing is fine when you're talking about your forum, but in general I hardly think scalping is a serious crime.

I guess I don't have an issue other than I don't see the problem and I go to every game. Maybe there's different perceptions for different people. I think it's fun and usually the people who are new are there to have a fun time too.

You've got 2 issues packed into 1, I think.

I am not going to tackle the "type of supporter" issue. That said, I think there is clear evidence to suggest that on the Toronto sports scene, the more expensive the ticket, the quieter the crowd. You only need to look at the ACC vs a pre-season game held off site at reasonable prices to experience the difference.

I do think there is merit to the argument that the more expensive season seats become AND/OR the more expensive tickets are on the secondary market, the greater the chance that the current atmosphere will be altered. I say this "on average" and recognize that for your immediate location and situation it may or may not be true.

As for the original issue of scalping, the issue isn't whether it is a serious crime. It is an offense AND it provides inflation in the market place that impacts the number of games that people can go to. That's where I see it as wrong. Promoting alternatives is our duty. I say that not as a member of the RBP but as your average fan that likes the idea of taking my family out in a way that doesn't set me back $500-$1,000.

I'm not promoting the RPB Ticket Exchange. I'll promote, endorse and use any ticket exchange that promotes at cost transactions. That goes for any SG exchange or the "Official" TFC Ticket Exchange.

Always There
01-02-2010, 02:00 PM
You've got 2 issues packed into 1, I think.

I am not going to tackle the "type of supporter" issue. That said, I think there is clear evidence to suggest that on the Toronto sports scene, the more expensive the ticket, the quieter the crowd. You only need to look at the ACC vs a pre-season game held off site at reasonable prices to experience the difference.

I do think there is merit to the argument that the more expensive season seats become AND/OR the more expensive tickets are on the secondary market, the greater the chance that the current atmosphere will be altered. I say this "on average" and recognize that for your immediate location and situation it may or may not be true.

As for the original issue of scalping, the issue isn't whether it is a serious crime. It is an offense AND it provides inflation in the market place that impacts the number of games that people can go to. That's where I see it as wrong. Promoting alternatives is our duty. I say that not as a member of the RBP but as your average fan that likes the idea of taking my family out in a way that doesn't set me back $500-$1,000.

I'm not promoting the RPB Ticket Exchange. I'll promote, endorse and use any ticket exchange that promotes at cost transactions. That goes for any SG exchange or the "Official" TFC Ticket Exchange.

I just don't see the connection between the driving up of ticket prices and scalpers. The demand for tickets is what makes the Leafs expensive. The scalpers react to that. If the demand isn't there, the scalpers can't charge outrageous prices. When it comes to TFC, I don't know anyone who has paid more than $5 over what the actual ticket price was. Other people have said the same thing, why does this point constantly get lost?

I don't know anyone who has paid anything close to this $500-$1000 you are referring to for tickets in the vicinity we are speaking about. Where are you getting this number? Why do you keep speaking about a hypothetical future?

I'm not promoting scalping. I just don't really care about them. I'm sure I've asked you directly, but if not: Do you not like the atmosphere at BMO? Do you notice a lot of people who seem to be not enjoying themselves and ruining the vibe? How many scalper tickets do you think there are? I believe it's quite minimal, but my impression is that you think it's a major problem.

When it comes to crowd volume, I'd say it has to do with the sport also, but that's a whole other subject. Raptors tickets aren't cheap, but they have some lively crowds, but again, a different subject.

torontocelt
01-02-2010, 02:13 PM
[quote=Raptors tickets aren't cheap, but they have some lively crowds, but again, a different subject.[/quote]

I bought a whole bunch of raptors tickets this season for $12.50 each, that is pretty damn cheap.

Roogsy
01-02-2010, 02:21 PM
I just don't see the connection between the driving up of ticket prices and scalpers. The demand for tickets is what makes the Leafs expensive. The scalpers react to that. If the demand isn't there, the scalpers can't charge outrageous prices. When it comes to TFC, I don't know anyone who has paid more than $5 over what the actual ticket price was. Other people have said the same thing, why does this point constantly get lost?

I thought you left? LOL!

Of course you don't see the connection. You either are a scalper or support their cause. Either way, the connection is quite obvious to anyone who has ever dealt with a scalper. Scalpers create scarcity. Scarcity creates price increases. Price increases create momentum and new pricing reference points. If there were no scalpers, there may still be small premiums to tickets, but it would be minimal because tickets would be in the hands of fans who are not interested in making money but rather simply recovering what they had paid. If there were no scalpers, more actual genuine fans would get a chance to experience the game rather than having to save up to experience one because they have to pay the scalper premium.


I don't know anyone who has paid anything close to this $500-$1000 you are referring to for tickets in the vicinity we are speaking about. Where are you getting this number? Why do you keep speaking about a hypothetical future?

If you want to buy a season ticket in 112, scalpers are not letting them go other than to charge an obscene market in the thousands. That much has been proven. That arbitrary scarcity that they are creating not because they don't actually want to see but because they are employing a scarcity tactic is what is creating an artificial pricing point for tickets.


I'm not promoting scalping. I just don't really care about them. I'm sure I've asked you directly, but if not: Do you not like the atmosphere at BMO? Do you notice a lot of people who seem to be not enjoying themselves and ruining the vibe? How many scalper tickets do you think there are? I believe it's quite minimal, but my impression is that you think it's a major problem.

This is an absolute lie. First, you obviously do have an interest in scalpers. And second, the number of seats in the stadium, especially in the supporters stands is an incredibly high percentage. TFC staff have confirmed their suspicions along these lines. All you have had to do is have gone to a ticket exchange event to see how many are in the hands of scalpers. All you have to do is see how many are in the hands of scalpers standing outside prior to games. All you have to do is find scalping agents online and see how many tickets they have available and you will that they hold an extraordinarily high percentage of tickets. My guess is at least 25% of the tickets in the stadium are in the hands of scalpers.


When it comes to crowd volume, I'd say it has to do with the sport also, but that's a whole other subject. Raptors tickets aren't cheap, but they have some lively crowds, but again, a different subject.

Raptor crowds are lively? Spoken like someone who has definitely become accustomed and accepting of the ACC atmosphere.

Pookie
01-02-2010, 02:58 PM
I just don't see the connection between the driving up of ticket prices and scalpers. The demand for tickets is what makes the Leafs expensive. The scalpers react to that. If the demand isn't there, the scalpers can't charge outrageous prices.

It isn't about the demand it's about the lack of an alternative and LEGAL supply option.

The only Leaf ticket exchange that trades at cost is closed to the public. If that were available and known, people would opt to buy their tickets there. That would put a big dent in the scalping business.

It is also about the perception of scarcity. There are plenty of Leaf tickets available for most games but they are usually only available within 24-48 hours. It's why the Leafs have launched a "Last Minute Club." That doesn't enable Daddy to get Jr a pair in his stocking for Christmas. It forces Daddy to go to stubhub and buy at marked up prices. Putting a profit in the hands of the season ticket holder.

So, why does scalping continue and does MLSE allow it? Precisely for that last reason.

The ability to scalp Leaf tickets for a profit is a driving force behind their annual rise in season ticket prices and introduction of the Personal Seat Licenses. If you can make money on your seats, it helps soften the blow.


When it comes to TFC, I don't know anyone who has paid more than $5 over what the actual ticket price was. Other people have said the same thing, why does this point constantly get lost?

Well, then the emails that I have in my inbox from the guy looking for $2,000 for a pair in 113 and $1,000 each for a pair in 110 are all made up.

I'll just go to the exchange instead as the season nears.


When it comes to crowd volume, I'd say it has to do with the sport also, but that's a whole other subject. Raptors tickets aren't cheap, but they have some lively crowds, but again, a different subject.

The example I used was in the same sport. Compare the noise at a Leafs pre-season game with affordable tickets in Hamilton vs a regular season night at the ACC.

Roogsy
01-02-2010, 03:04 PM
So, why does scalping continue and does MLSE allow it? Precisely for that last reason.

The ability to scalp Leaf tickets for a profit is a driving force behind their annual rise in season ticket prices and introduction of the Personal Seat Licenses. If you can make money on your seats, it helps soften the blow.



And there it is. In black and white, the reason why the TFC front office will never do anything of significance to get rid of scalpers. It creates a higher pricing point so they can justify annual price increases. No wonder Scalpers were brash enough to say to TFC staffers right to their faces "you should be thanking us". I heard it myself.

brad
01-02-2010, 04:08 PM
When it comes to TFC, I don't know anyone who has paid more than $5 over what the actual ticket price was. Other people have said the same thing, why does this point constantly get lost?

There are large number of tickets in my row and the row behind (around 8-10 per row) on Stubhub for every game at double or triple face. More often than not people have bought these.

Most people buying on the secondary market are paying more that $5.00 above cost.

Always There
01-02-2010, 07:21 PM
I thought you left? LOL!

Of course you don't see the connection. You either are a scalper or support their cause. Either way, the connection is quite obvious to anyone who has ever dealt with a scalper. Scalpers create scarcity. Scarcity creates price increases. Price increases create momentum and new pricing reference points. If there were no scalpers, there may still be small premiums to tickets, but it would be minimal because tickets would be in the hands of fans who are not interested in making money but rather simply recovering what they had paid. If there were no scalpers, more actual genuine fans would get a chance to experience the game rather than having to save up to experience one because they have to pay the scalper premium.



If you want to buy a season ticket in 112, scalpers are not letting them go other than to charge an obscene market in the thousands. That much has been proven. That arbitrary scarcity that they are creating not because they don't actually want to see but because they are employing a scarcity tactic is what is creating an artificial pricing point for tickets.



This is an absolute lie. First, you obviously do have an interest in scalpers. And second, the number of seats in the stadium, especially in the supporters stands is an incredibly high percentage. TFC staff have confirmed their suspicions along these lines. All you have had to do is have gone to a ticket exchange event to see how many are in the hands of scalpers. All you have to do is see how many are in the hands of scalpers standing outside prior to games. All you have to do is find scalping agents online and see how many tickets they have available and you will that they hold an extraordinarily high percentage of tickets. My guess is at least 25% of the tickets in the stadium are in the hands of scalpers.



Raptor crowds are lively? Spoken like someone who has definitely become accustomed and accepting of the ACC atmosphere.

You seriously called me a LIAR???? How do I have an obvious interest in scalpers?? Back up your ridiculous claims.

It's statements like the ones you made about me that completely discredit everything you say.

The only person close to a liar is you. You say a bunch of stuff with no proof at all, or any factual numbers to back up anything you say. Yet, it's all so obvious. Give me a break. Your 25% scalper ticket estimation is absolutely outrageous.

Scalpers don't create scarcity. That's just wrong. They buy tickets to all events, and when an event is popular they charge a premium for tickets. They can't charge a bunch if nobody wants to go. That's why more often than not you can buy tickets for Blue Jay games for under face value. That being said, I never do, because I like to support the franchise.

If you really wanted season seats in 112, you could have bought them when they went on sale. If now 4 years later you're willing to pay thousands for a seat worth a few hundred, you're an idiot plain and simple. People can try and charge whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that's what people are paying.

All this talk about the Leafs and scalpers is silly. I bought tickets over the phone for a game on the 26th and had no problems doing so. Just like tickets are available for BMO every game.

Yeah, the Raptor crowds are lively. I know it's cool to insult all things ACC, but they have good crowds. Just because people aren't throwing streamers around or chanting the same songs over and over and over again doesn't make it a bad atmosphere.

By the way, do you care who gets your extra tickets? Probably not.

Always There
01-02-2010, 09:05 PM
I bought a whole bunch of raptors tickets this season for $12.50 each, that is pretty damn cheap.

There aren't many of those. Lower bowl is close to $100 minimum.

Canadian Blue
01-02-2010, 09:54 PM
You seriously called me a LIAR???? How do I have an obvious interest in scalpers?? Back up your ridiculous claims.

It's statements like the ones you made about me that completely discredit everything you say.

The only person close to a liar is you. You say a bunch of stuff with no proof at all, or any factual numbers to back up anything you say. Yet, it's all so obvious. Give me a break. Your 25% scalper ticket estimation is absolutely outrageous.



I agree with this guy totally, Roogsy as a moderator you should show a bit more class than attempt to discredit someone that you have probably never met by calling them a scalper and a liar. In fact as a moderator these are the exact statements you should be acting on.......maybe you should delete your own post or give yourself a yellow card for violating forum rules. Please read this thread from Jack about personal attacks http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14963

Always There
01-03-2010, 12:03 AM
I agree with this guy totally, Roogsy as a moderator you should show a bit more class than attempt to discredit someone that you have probably never met by calling them a scalper and a liar. In fact as a moderator these are the exact statements you should be acting on.......maybe you should delete your own post or give yourself a yellow card for violating forum rules. Please read this thread from Jack about personal attacks http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14963)/showthread.php?t=14963 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14963)

It's all good. I really don't care all that much. I just sort of thought it came out of left field. I'm not a scalper.

For me, the atmosphere is great and that's all that matters.

If the south end of BMO is expanded there's going to be mass panic:D

jazzy
01-03-2010, 12:49 AM
I emailed a guy on craigslist, asked him how much his tickets are, he said 2250, I told him thats way over face (for light grey's), he said good luck getting tickets.

Tell him he's, a F%&$ing IDIOT, there is no way ever way, those tickets will ever be worth that much. MLSE is too stupid to ever get a team worth that much, sorry but they would greedily f&&%k it up. It's only the fans that make them valuable, as per leafs, (sic), And Our fans are the best in the city but from $330 (approx), to what? ahahaha, he is probably the guy behind me and owns approx ten seats which are many times empty because he's after $. Esp, Premier? games. And I dislike the idea because I am against hoarding tickets as an investment. There are tickets to be had just hit up a scalper after the game has started.

TFCtoMUFC
01-03-2010, 12:51 AM
Tell him he's, a F%&$ing IDIOT, there is no way ever way, those tickets will ever be worth that much. MLSE is too stupid to ever get a team worth that much, sorry but they would greedily f&&%k it up. It's only the fans that make them valuable, as per leafs, (sic), And Our fans are the best in the city but from $330 (approx), to what? ahahaha, he is probably the guy behind me and owns approx ten seats which are many times empty because he's after $. Esp, Premier? games. And I dislike the idea because I am against hoarding tickets as an investment. There are tickets to be had just hit up a scalper after the game has started.

The tix are in 127.

T.O TILL I DIE
01-03-2010, 01:04 AM
There Is No Solution For Thesse Bastards! Butt Theers One Thing Make Northendseats I Think Itll Work!

jazzy
01-03-2010, 01:20 AM
The tix are in 127.
I still stand pat, I sat there for the FIFA under 20, I believe they are approx the same as 110, closer to 111, I would never even trade, mine which are high up, 1. Grandstands are always in the shade, and on cold days that is HUGE, 2. Boring 3. Although many drunks near me, (most) are fun, except for the scalped newbies. Don't get me wrong, I love new fans esp, younger fans, it really bodes well for the future, but it's the (where's the Argo game fans), who lost their way to the bar, yelling insults to the players and fellow fans that may someday hurt the whole atmosphere.(and price),the scalpers favourite market I mght add. The only seats which will raise in value may be the cheap seats, though. As noticed to everyone, with all the downgrading from the centre to the sides., but remember ALL the spirit is from the affordable ticket areas, and when it gets to expensive the suits move in, or corporations, then silence, apparentely TFC has lost many corporate seats this year. It will be an interesting next 5 years.