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View Full Version : Replacement players - would you support?



SweetOwnGoal
12-23-2009, 10:07 AM
Although it is still early(ish) days in the CBA negotiations, one option that MLS may use is to lock-out the current players and start the season using replacement players. In many ways this could be easier to pull off in MLS because of the massive amount of footballers around the world – teams might even look at it as a cheap way to look at a bunch of new “talent” (and some would be bound to stick after – you do sometimes find diamonds in the rough).

I’m curious (and not trying to be reactionary). Would you support a team made up of replacement players by going to the games?

Boris
12-23-2009, 10:10 AM
ha, this is interesting. I have had a convo with this witha few people and plain and simple NO

Oldtimer
12-23-2009, 10:11 AM
No way.

ArmenJBX
12-23-2009, 10:13 AM
A couple of factors would influence that decision, but overall, probably not.

a) Who the players are. If they're no name players from places like Qatar and Zimbabwe, probably not. If they're reserve players from teams like Arsenal, Real, Barca, etc, then possibly.

b) If we have the option to keep players we want.

c) If we have at least some young Canadians in the lineup.

d) If the tickets are cheaper

If all those conditions are met, yeah, probably, but I go to see my team, and it wouldn't feel like Toronto FC if we had 22 brand new guys who, let's face it, aren't really Toronto FC players. It would feel fake.

Beach_Red
12-23-2009, 10:14 AM
Aren't these pretty much replacement players now?

Daveisonfire
12-23-2009, 10:14 AM
Yes, it's about the badge, not the players who wear it.

stugautz
12-23-2009, 10:25 AM
We might be more competitive if this were the case. I don't think anybody here would complain if we won the MLS cup with replacement players.

It will also keep Nick Garcia off the field.

Yohan
12-23-2009, 10:34 AM
We might be more competitive if this were the case. I don't think anybody here would complain if we won the MLS cup with replacement players.
you sure about that? there are many who thinks we really didn't win Voyageurs Cup legitimately in Mtl....


It will also keep Nick Garcia off the field.
lol

ensco
12-23-2009, 10:35 AM
I will give away my seats if they use replacement players. Not because I'm a dyed-in-the-wool union guy (I'm not), but because I identify with the players and the strip. They are one and the same.

I'm not picking sides. Which means I'm not going if the play the games without our guys.

Even Nick Garcia!

Afra
12-23-2009, 11:03 AM
I would support TFC Academy. And expect a credit on my ST's.

drewski
12-23-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm against it, not because its scab labour (which I'm not keen on), but because I think no league would be better than a league with inferior product.

swan
12-23-2009, 11:35 AM
if they were getting paid big bucks already and were wanting more then yeah i would watch support the replacements but since mls pay is crap i would support our players and not go...

Beach_Red
12-23-2009, 11:36 AM
If the salary cap remains the same then "replacement" players will be of the same quality - the same kind of players the teams could buy for the same amount, wouldn't they?

This isn't like the NFL or NBA using replcement players, taking a step down from the best in the world.

But still, I'd stop going to games. This league is about the lowest level I'm willing to accept and I'm only willing to do that because of the potential. If the salary cap doesn't go up then the league has started to stagnate and I would be unwilling to"invest" in it any more - the same as any business that has peaked and started to drop back.

H Bomb
12-23-2009, 11:58 AM
I'm against it because I think the league needs to take many of the steps Kasey Keller has stated the players are fighting for. You're right red, the quality would be the same. But i think what we all want is a higher quality league.

Carefree
12-23-2009, 12:50 PM
If this was our first season it wouldn't matter to me since I probably wouldn't know any of the players anyway (I didn't follow MLS before TFC). But over the past three years I've come to know the players, and that makes the game a lot more enjoyable. The badge by itself is just a drawing; it's the players, coaches and supporters that make it into something meaningful. Take away the players and you take away a major part of my connection to the team.

Brooker
12-23-2009, 01:17 PM
Aren't these pretty much replacement players now?

http://anyworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/pwned_bv6.jpg

Oblio2
12-23-2009, 01:31 PM
This league is not that talented to begin with so, would I stop watching English 2nd div equivalent footbal to watch Sunday league players? Sure...if MLSE gave us money back for the tripe we'd be subjected too

TOBOR !
12-23-2009, 01:45 PM
Well the quality wouldn't be likely to suffer.



The badge by itself is just a drawing; it's the players, coaches and supporters that make it into something meaningful. Take away the players and you take away a major part of my connection to the team.


That's a bit odd. What if, over the next couple of years, all these people ended up being replaced by new personnel and coincidentally turned up on the same team elsewhere ? Who would you support then ? Would you be torn ?

I'd argue that it's partially about the players, as it's hard to cheer for your team if you dislike the players on it, but the only constant in the equation is the team, as the players will forever change.

I will support a team of scabs and have no qualms doing it.

ManUtd4ever
12-23-2009, 01:54 PM
This is a difficult situation to contemplate. I'm in the minority but I'd have to say that yes, I'd reluctantly support TFC with replacement players because of the badge and the fact that it is not the fault of MLSE if both sides are stupid enough to let it get to that point. It definitely wouldn't be the same though...

Carts
12-23-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm not going to vote, because my option is not there...

Its a simple NOPE.

Nothing to do with "scab labour", nothing to do with "the club is doing what it has to do", its just I won't pay to watch them play.

If the MLS players go on strike or players are locked out, I simply want the league to shutdown, and the money I have paid for tickets held until the league returns...

I have the same feelings if the NHL, NBA, MLB have labour problems - just shutdown and figure it out...

All parties involved MUST SEE that doing this MAY KILL THE LEAGUE. For those who don't agree, it took Major League Baseball, yes "America's Pasttime" almost a decade to erase the labour problems with the fans - and in some cities they still haven't fully recovered. If MLS owners and players think they can go through it and get back to 100% quicker once over - they're dilusional...

Carts...

rocker
12-23-2009, 01:58 PM
bring back Andrea Lombardo!!!!

Roogsy
12-23-2009, 02:11 PM
I'm not going to vote, because my option is not there...

Its a simple NOPE.

Nothing to do with "scab labour", nothing to do with "the club is doing what it has to do", its just I won't pay to watch them play.

If the MLS players go on strike or players are locked out, I simply want the league to shutdown, and the money I have paid for tickets held until the league returns...

I have the same feelings if the NHL, NBA, MLB have labour problems - just shutdown and figure it out...

All parties involved MUST SEE that doing this MAY KILL THE LEAGUE. For those who don't agree, it took Major League Baseball, yes "America's Pasttime" almost a decade to erase the labour problems with the fans - and in some cities they still haven't fully recovered. If MLS owners and players think they can go through it and get back to 100% quicker once over - they're dilusional...

Carts...

Word

Hitcho
12-23-2009, 02:15 PM
bring back Andrea Lombardo!!!!

Haha - that's the only way I would support this actually. Bring back former TFC players to fill the holes. Lombardo, Sutton, Pozniak, DICHIO - that's a replacement team I could get behind!!! :D

jloome
12-23-2009, 02:51 PM
No, on principle I generally don't believe in interfering with a union's right to stirke or an owner's right to lockout, and that includes both scabs on the one side and picket interference on the other.

These things should be resolved civilly and neither of these is an extension of civility.

If they're on strike, as a general rule, I'll support whomever I think is making the most reasonable (public) demands.

Scab players are not our players and a scab team is not our team.

jloome
12-23-2009, 02:53 PM
This poll, by the way, continues the somewhat dangerous social trend of seeing everything two extremes.

Where's the vote for "No, I Might Cross A Picket Line if it's deserved, but not in this case."

Why does it have to be "I NEVER cross picket lines?"

wzhxvy
12-23-2009, 02:56 PM
I will go and cheer for them because I have zero time for unions...

twistedchinaman
12-23-2009, 03:36 PM
In this case, I can't see myself supporting a team of people that after any strike is over, will never be seen again.

Badge and personalities go hand-in-hand.

Toronto Ruffrider
12-23-2009, 05:23 PM
I'm not much of a union booster, but I wouldn't support replacement players simply because they would be a step or two down from what we've got right now, which isn't a whole lot anyway. It would make more sense to invest my money in CSL or PDL games.

ensco
12-23-2009, 05:47 PM
Bill Shankly on boardroom meetings : "At a football club, there's a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don't come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques".

Pookie
12-23-2009, 09:55 PM
It will also keep Nick Garcia off the field.

What if Nick Garcia is one of the replacement players? :eek:

Pookie
12-23-2009, 09:57 PM
When it comes to "support", it's one thing not to go. It's another to get your money back. It's already in the MLSE/MLS bank accounts.

Menelaos
12-23-2009, 11:57 PM
Yes, it's about the badge, not the players who wear it.


I agree 100%

Love our players, but if they left and others took their place, I would learn to love and support them too.

I am a TFC supporter, so any player wearing a TFC jersey will get my support.

MUFC_Niagara
12-24-2009, 12:06 AM
I'm not going to vote, because my option is not there...

Its a simple NOPE.

Nothing to do with "scab labour", nothing to do with "the club is doing what it has to do", its just I won't pay to watch them play.

If the MLS players go on strike or players are locked out, I simply want the league to shutdown, and the money I have paid for tickets held until the league returns...

I have the same feelings if the NHL, NBA, MLB have labour problems - just shutdown and figure it out...

All parties involved MUST SEE that doing this MAY KILL THE LEAGUE. For those who don't agree, it took Major League Baseball, yes "America's Pasttime" almost a decade to erase the labour problems with the fans - and in some cities they still haven't fully recovered. If MLS owners and players think they can go through it and get back to 100% quicker once over - they're dilusional...

Carts...

Along with Roogsy...+1

nascarguy
12-24-2009, 04:26 AM
I think fifa would step in and say something if it goes on too long

SteeltownBhoy
12-24-2009, 11:33 AM
I have never crossed a picket line in my life!!! I have also walked them!!!

I would stand along side any striking TFC player who where trying to fight the poverty wages this league pays!!

Solidarity

SteeltownBhoy
12-24-2009, 11:40 AM
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/strike-2.jpg

Please refer to all replacement workers in ant further posts as the lower life forms
known as SCABS!!

rocker
12-24-2009, 12:10 PM
i wouldn't support it.
there's no way the quality would be even close to what we have now (and people complain about the quality now!).
why? well, no decent player is gonna sign a temp contract to play until the inevitable time when the league comes to an agreement with the union.
and you can't find 384 players better than what we have on short notice in March.
but philosophically I would support the union because I don't believe they are demanding anything drastic. There's no reason the league needs to lockout the players or provoke a strike.

but i've been involved in union negotiations and there's always a lot of bluster right up to the end. It's strategy. most of the time it gets resolved right near the deadline.

Azerban
12-25-2009, 11:24 AM
where's all the invisible hand of the free market scalper bitches on this issue

where are you







i know you're out there

Stryker
12-25-2009, 01:43 PM
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/strike-2.jpg

Please refer to all replacement workers in ant further posts as the lower life forms
known as SCABS!!

Yup, people trying to feed their families or better their lives when opprotunities present themselves are real scum.
I'm union and I still find the word "scab" to be petty, childish and vocabulary typical of a small minded and insecure person.

Having said that, no I wouldn't watch replacement players.

ag futbol
12-25-2009, 02:27 PM
I wouldn’t watch the replacement players because the quality would be terrible and I think what the players are trying to accomplish is necessary to move the league forward. The time is right to easy off some of the extreme measures that were put in place when the league was under financial hardship. From the sounds of things they are asking for:
- A slight increase in the salary cap (and increases in the minimum salary
- Measures that increase travel allowances and quality of accommodations
- Free agent rights for players out of contract
- Guaranteed contracts

I completely support:
- The first two of the above (providing the increase in the cap is actually slight). The importance of increasing the minimum salary is huge. You won’t get good prospects unless you pay them at least a reasonable wage.
- Free agent rights. League is losing talent just because players who are willing to play for an MLS salary can’t negotiate with other MLS teams. Their former teams would rather put up the price to prevent them from playing for someone else unless they get big trade value for “rights”. Makes little sense.
-Making a minimum % of contracts signed in the future guaranteed, with some flexibility to have non-guaranteed contracts for highly experimental players on the back end of the roster.

I do not support:
- Changing anyone’s existing contract to make it guaranteed when it’s currently not. You signed it, you have to play by it.
- More DP spaces. This league needs more quality across the field, not a huge chunk of change on one extra player.
- Giving more money to players already at the top end of the pay grade.

TFC07
12-25-2009, 10:34 PM
Yes absolutely – it’s about the strip not the players

:scarf: till I die!

I will support any soccer player who is willing to honour our strip and give it his all for TFC.

Get In There
12-25-2009, 10:41 PM
$1,700 is hard enough to stomach as it is.

The strike would not be the last straw - replacement players without a significant (50%) refund would.

B

scooter
12-26-2009, 11:27 AM
nope no no no
i already posted on this topic in another thread
if mls or the players strike they both have there heads in the sand
carts is dead on -- i have not been to a blue jays game since the strike it killed baseball for me
soccer is my passion but a strike might kill this league
i have an easy solution for the players -- if you dont want to play in mls go somewhere else -- if you want to stay and work on bettering the league and
getting the changes made over time in a realistic fashion then rock on

puskas1954
12-26-2009, 10:47 PM
If they were to start the season with replacement players then would the same salary cap still be in effect as the previous year ? The point has been made that their is an awful lot of talent to be found globally that would be more then pleased to get a regular paycheque to play football. Who's to say that the quality on the pitch would be greatly diminished ?.
:drinking:

Voodooman
12-26-2009, 11:13 PM
I wouldnt hold it against the club, the younger guys would get some experience and we get to see future stars, but It would be a drag seeing this

RicoSuave44
12-27-2009, 09:09 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CrFl74ezdOE/RzWz7l3E-fI/AAAAAAAAA78/FPbuR3fmiZc/s200/ScabRat+copy.jpg

SOLIDARITY FOREVER

SteeltownBhoy
12-28-2009, 11:58 AM
For those who would support replacenment players (scabs) it would be interesting what you would say to current TFC players if they walked a picket line during games.
They would have a right under Ontario Labour Law to hold you up, on a legal picket line, to inform you of the striker's position. It may only be for seconds,but can you imagine the kaos 20,000 being held up at the beginning of a game?? But I digress!!

So what would you say?? Sorry Nana, it's not about a living wage, it's about the badge and supporting the scabs that are taking your living away. But don't worry, once the strike is over it's all about you guys again. Toronto till I die, buy the way can I have your autograph??

If this ever got to a strike\ lockout it will be interesting to see what position RPB will take. Will the support be for Dero, DeGuzman, Attakora, or some non talented SCABS not under any contract anywhere looking for a quick payday!!!

I know where my support will be, and will have no problem supporting real TFC players on a picket line if it ever comes to that!!

Solidarity Brothers

deltox
12-28-2009, 12:29 PM
dont we have a law in Ontario about not allowing replacement workers?

A Stick
12-28-2009, 12:35 PM
For those who would support replacenment players (scabs) it would be interesting what you would say to current TFC players if they walked a picket line during games.
They would have a right under Ontario Labour Law to hold you up, on a legal picket line, to inform you of the striker's position. It may only be for seconds,but can you imagine the kaos 20,000 being held up at the beginning of a game?? But I digress!!

So what would you say?? Sorry Nana, it's not about a living wage, it's about the badge and supporting the scabs that are taking your living away. But don't worry, once the strike is over it's all about you guys again. Toronto till I die, buy the way can I have your autograph??

If this ever got to a strike\ lockout it will be interesting to see what position RPB will take. Will the support be for Dero, DeGuzman, Attakora, or some non talented SCABS not under any contract anywhere looking for a quick payday!!!

I know where my support will be, and will have no problem supporting real TFC players on a picket line if it ever comes to that!!

Solidarity Brothers

Well SteeltownBhoy;

We rarely see eye to eye on things (Rangers Fan), but I am in total agreement with you on this one. There are quite a few players in this league who don't make a realistic working wage and don't have guaranteed contracts. With careers that are very short on average and a career ending injury just a game away, they deserve some type of job security as in the form of guaranteed contracts and higher wage cap.

Come to think of it, in Ontario I don't think TFC would be allowed to use replacement players (I could be wrong on this one).

Further more, if MLS fails to improve the cap significantly, they will be positioning the league to be ripe for Asian gambling syndicates to start infiltrating the league and if anyone does not think that they are not sniffing around right now has their heads in the sand just like the league. :facepalm:

Cheers;

A Stick

Pookie
12-28-2009, 12:47 PM
^ the other challenge for the league though, if you are looking to counter gambling syndicates, is that only a couple of teams are actually making a profit.

Declan Hill (The Fix) references teams in financial troubles who use the proceeds from these "opportunities" to make their payrolls.

Raising the cap beyond the financial reach of teams is also problematic. While you attempt to shut one door, you could open another.

SteeltownBhoy
12-28-2009, 01:11 PM
Since 1995 Replacement Workers (SCABS) have been legal in Ontario. Mike Harris (surprise surprise) knocked down the Anti Scab laws brought in by NDP in the early 90's
You don't see replacement workers that much in Ontario,we seem to be able to settle our disputes without resorting to them. Could you imagine the outcry if Toronto bussed in workers during the garbage strike!! The United States on the other hand have a long history of SCABBING, with states proudly proclaiming themselves as " Right To Work" There have been some long bitter struggles down there, and this is an American League!!!

Mikey
12-28-2009, 01:21 PM
If these "replacement players" show more heart and determination on the pitch than our regular players do we get to keep them....?

JOKING!

I have a hard enough time supporting some of our regular players, I doubt I'll have the time of day for strike breakers.

ExiledRed
12-28-2009, 01:24 PM
It isnt going to happen.

This team hasnt had a striker since inception.

Mikey
12-28-2009, 08:46 PM
Aaah, I see what you did there..."striker"

Nice.

Menelaos
12-28-2009, 09:28 PM
For those who would support replacenment players (scabs) it would be interesting what you would say to current TFC players if they walked a picket line during games.
They would have a right under Ontario Labour Law to hold you up, on a legal picket line, to inform you of the striker's position. It may only be for seconds,but can you imagine the kaos 20,000 being held up at the beginning of a game?? But I digress!!

So what would you say?? Sorry Nana, it's not about a living wage, it's about the badge and supporting the scabs that are taking your living away. But don't worry, once the strike is over it's all about you guys again. Toronto till I die, buy the way can I have your autograph??

If this ever got to a strike\ lockout it will be interesting to see what position RPB will take. Will the support be for Dero, DeGuzman, Attakora, or some non talented SCABS not under any contract anywhere looking for a quick payday!!!

I know where my support will be, and will have no problem supporting real TFC players on a picket line if it ever comes to that!!

Solidarity Brothers

Which part of TORONTO FC supports is that hard for you to understand? Are you going down to Honduras this year to cheer for Guevara? Seriously, if you are that supportive to the players themselves and not the actual jersey...I am sure you'll be visiting all the players who have left.

And when, because it will happen my dear friend, the guys on our team now end up leaving, you will chase around 'supporting' them all.

Now that I have made a retarded argument like yours, maybe you want to UNDERSTAND our point. We support the 'TEAM', the 'JERSRSEY'...not the individual players who are here now, but might not be tomorrow. While they are TFC players, they get the support, but once gone, we chear for the new players wearing the red.

What will I say to any of the players if they are on the line? Sorry mate, shit happens and if I had a choice, I'd have you in there. But I don't and those boys in there are playing for Toronto and they also deserve support.

The question ask if we would support them. Yes I would support them if I already have my tickets purchased (which at this point, most of us have)

Now ask if we'd buy tickets in advance knowing it would be replacement players, and my answer changes. While I would support them from home/pub, I would not pay MSL prices for replacement players.

TFC07
12-29-2009, 12:43 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if replacement players were better than most of the players (or at least half of the players) on the current roster. lol

Is it true you can get charged for going to games to watch replacement players play? That seems harsh.

ExiledRed
12-29-2009, 12:54 AM
Is it true you can get charged for going to games to watch replacement players play? That seems harsh.

You're under arrest for watching crappy football?

or are you talking about having to pay the entrance fee?

rocker
12-29-2009, 09:27 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if replacement players were better than most of the players (or at least half of the players) on the current roster. lol


really? where would you find 12 replacement players better than half what we have, who would be out of contract in February/March, willing to play for an unknown period of time, and who would suddenly have chemistry with each other?

I think it would be worse than the USL.

RicoSuave44
12-29-2009, 07:38 PM
Which part of TORONTO FC supports is that hard for you to understand? Are you going down to Honduras this year to cheer for Guevara? Seriously, if you are that supportive to the players themselves and not the actual jersey...I am sure you'll be visiting all the players who have left.

And when, because it will happen my dear friend, the guys on our team now end up leaving, you will chase around 'supporting' them all.

Now that I have made a retarded argument like yours, maybe you want to UNDERSTAND our point. We support the 'TEAM', the 'JERSRSEY'...not the individual players who are here now, but might not be tomorrow. While they are TFC players, they get the support, but once gone, we chear for the new players wearing the red.

What will I say to any of the players if they are on the line? Sorry mate, shit happens and if I had a choice, I'd have you in there. But I don't and those boys in there are playing for Toronto and they also deserve support.

The question ask if we would support them. Yes I would support them if I already have my tickets purchased (which at this point, most of us have)

Now ask if we'd buy tickets in advance knowing it would be replacement players, and my answer changes. While I would support them from home/pub, I would not pay MSL prices for replacement players.


I don't think you quite understand. There would be quite a lot of TFC fans walking the picket, in solidarity with the players. They would give you hell for crossing the line. It would split the supporters apart and things would get ugly (not physically necessarily, but friendships would be tested at the very least).

I for one would have trouble staying friends with any scab loving TFC supporters. Nothing splits a group like politics. This would be a terrible circumstance to be in, should it ever happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiKdJoSsb8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g&feature=fvw

Solidarity brothers and sisters

OneLoveOneEric
01-01-2010, 11:24 AM
I'm not going to vote, because my option is not there...

Its a simple NOPE.

Nothing to do with "scab labour", nothing to do with "the club is doing what it has to do", its just I won't pay to watch them play.

If the MLS players go on strike or players are locked out, I simply want the league to shutdown, and the money I have paid for tickets held until the league returns...

I have the same feelings if the NHL, NBA, MLB have labour problems - just shutdown and figure it out...

All parties involved MUST SEE that doing this MAY KILL THE LEAGUE. For those who don't agree, it took Major League Baseball, yes "America's Pasttime" almost a decade to erase the labour problems with the fans - and in some cities they still haven't fully recovered. If MLS owners and players think they can go through it and get back to 100% quicker once over - they're dilusional...

Carts...

Me too.

And PS -- there isn't a snowball's chance in hell this league could survive a long labour disruption. No chance.

OneLoveOneEric
01-01-2010, 11:25 AM
It isnt going to happen.

This team hasnt had a striker since inception.

Ha!!

Love it.

TFC07
01-01-2010, 04:35 PM
really? where would you find 12 replacement players better than half what we have, who would be out of contract in February/March, willing to play for an unknown period of time, and who would suddenly have chemistry with each other?

I think it would be worse than the USL.

I don't want to start off a war here, but half of players on our team wouldn't be playing pro soccer if wasn't for MLS/TFC. BTW, our roster has been turnover so much since day one, so it wouldn't make a huge difference if we get random replacement players and trying to learn to play together during the season.

I except TFC to get most of their replacement players from CSL and perhaps their academy....plus couple of international players here and there. So the quality wouldn't be that bad!

ag futbol
01-01-2010, 05:26 PM
While I’m not trying to particularly flame you, I’d point out the following:
- At BEST, the CSL players / academy would be similar to a year 1: Joey Melo, Andre Lombardo, forgetting the other names now, … come to think of it that doesn’t sound too different, but the drop off in quality would be huge. You see what happens when MLS teams hit the injury bug, I can’t possibly picture anything coming out of the bottom half of the roster being soccer worth paying for.
- While I do agree that if it wasn’t for TFC / MLS the bottom half of the roster probably isn’t playing, that’s not so different from many leagues in the world.

Beach_Red
01-01-2010, 07:07 PM
There are a lot of reasons why I wouldn't support replacement players but the main one is that it would mean the league is not increasing player salaries (or even keeping them the same), so it's not increasing the level of play, so it's taking a step backwards.

It's not the replacement players just trying to make a buck I wouldn't support, it's the league not trying to improve.

ilikemusic
01-04-2010, 01:07 AM
Regardless of any ideals about organized labor or 'loyalty to the badge', I didnt pay several hundered (and in alot of people's cases, several thousand) dollars to watch Joe Bumfuck Nobody chase a ball around a pitch for 90 miserable minutes.

I would demand a full refund, pro-rated for however long the labor disruption lasts.

Shakes McQueen
01-04-2010, 01:17 AM
There are a lot of reasons why I wouldn't support replacement players but the main one is that it would mean the league is not increasing player salaries (or even keeping them the same), so it's not increasing the level of play, so it's taking a step backwards.

It's not the replacement players just trying to make a buck I wouldn't support, it's the league not trying to improve.

This is kind of where I am. I would stand by the players, because the players are demanding a lot of the same things we want.

I wouldn't hold it against the club for trying to forge ahead with the season though, in the event of a stoppage. But I certainly wouldn't be giving them any of my money, to see a bunch of inferior nobodies inhabiting our shirt for one season.

I don't think MLS will let it get to that point, though. Surely they must know how devastating a move like this would be to the league's somewhat tentative fanbase.

Likewise, surely the union must know they should be wary of overplaying their hand against a league fighting to attain financial stability, and with many teams fighting dismal attendance numbers.

- Scott

ExiledRed
01-04-2010, 01:31 AM
I would go to the games if they replaced all the teams with squads of midgets.

trane
01-04-2010, 10:53 AM
I am all about club over individual players, but this is something else. I do not think that the MLS can afford a strike and replacement players at this time. I am not sure I would go to the games, I may go to see if we have uncovered some tallent, but to me it would be a a bit of a sham, I would not take the games seriously.

Yeoman
01-04-2010, 04:42 PM
i would not even attend
they've got my money for the season ticket already, so MLSE and MLS wouldn't care much if i do not go.
this is about the players wanting to have a better life then what they have, and i agree with them.

ag futbol
01-04-2010, 11:42 PM
There are a lot of reasons why I wouldn't support replacement players but the main one is that it would mean the league is not increasing player salaries (or even keeping them the same), so it's not increasing the level of play, so it's taking a step backwards.

It's not the replacement players just trying to make a buck I wouldn't support, it's the league not trying to improve.
I agree completely. Funny for the league to be playing up it's success over the last two years then basically offering MLSPU next to nothing.

Bob Lenarduzzi had a good quote a little while back. It was something along the lines of: "we appreciate all the money people like the Hunts have sunk into this league over the years to keep it afloat, but this league will never grow without some serious investment in players. "

S_D
01-04-2010, 11:53 PM
i would not even attend
they've got my money for the season ticket already, so MLSE and MLS wouldn't care much if i do not go.
this is about the players wanting to have a better life then what they have, and i agree with them.

MLSE would. They want your beer money.

I highly doubt many people would support replacement players. Replacement players at best would be USL 1-2 quality and not many supported the Lynx.

Red CB Toronto
01-05-2010, 01:11 AM
I am pretty sure the current Reds would be saying "Don't You Forget About Me" during the process, can you imagine outside Gate 4 if there were replacement players and the regulars had a picket line, now that would be interesting. The last example of this, the NFL strike in 1987 got pretty heated.

TOBOR !
01-07-2010, 12:16 AM
I'm inclined to think we're looking at an NHL type lock out scenario here. No season at all. No scabs. A player strike would be a different situation - then you might have scab labour.

Mikey
01-07-2010, 08:08 AM
I'm inclined to think we're looking at an NHL type lock out scenario here. No season at all. No scabs. A player strike would be a different situation - then you might have scab labour.

I don't see MLS managing to come back after a lockout, I think it would be pretty much the end of several franchises.

deltox
01-07-2010, 08:52 AM
gives way to move the crap franchises to MTL and st louis

TOBOR !
01-07-2010, 09:06 AM
rather than be the death knell of footy in North America I think it would lead to a metamorphosis and become something better than what it is currently. I'd wager an NASL/USL1/MLS merger of sorts... but that's a bit 'pie in the sky'.

What I do expect is to see a last minute settlement and normal service to continue.

tlear
01-07-2010, 09:32 AM
I would support the club no matter what.. oh and I am not a fan of unions (mildly speaking)

canadian_bhoy
01-07-2010, 09:43 AM
It worked for Keanu Reeves and John Favro.

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2000_The_Replacements/jon_favreau_the_replacements_001.jpg

nobodybeatsthewiz
01-07-2010, 09:47 AM
It worked for Keanu Reeves and John Favro.

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2000_The_Replacements/jon_favreau_the_replacements_001.jpg

bastard! beat me to it.

get rhys ifans in there!

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/img/daily/555/rhys_l.jpg

Blazer
01-10-2010, 03:34 PM
Would the difference between MLS players and replacement players be tremendously obvious? Really?

ag futbol
01-10-2010, 04:05 PM
Would the difference between MLS players and replacement players be tremendously obvious? Really?
Well who do you think is going to come here and play?

What is MLS going to offer to temporary replacement workers who are replacing the regulars? Temporary contracts, low wages, maybe a shot to make the regular team if you impress.

Realistically that means you're going to draw PDL, CSL, Indoor professionals, and other such characters. You won't even get USL guys because they have guaranteed work with their league while MLS only offers a temp fix.

I think it's pretty safe to say these guys are not better than what we regularly see on the field.

Blazer
01-10-2010, 04:30 PM
^ Oh I’m not suggesting that replacements would be better, I’m wondering if the difference between the two (current MLS players and scabs) would really be so obvious that it would make the experience any less?!

ag futbol
01-10-2010, 04:34 PM
^ Fair enough ... we do live with a lot of terrible play at times.

Blazer
01-10-2010, 04:44 PM
I mean, let’s be honest here. Most of us go down on game day with friends and family (or to meet with friends and family) in order to enjoy the food & drink and other various excitements of “game day” (if you’re a tailgater or pub goer I mean). Taking in a football match that we all recognize to be of sub-par quality anyway is something we’ve grown to accept and comes with the territory. Is it really about the game or quality of players at this point, or would we not still enjoy ourselves if everything else was the same? Winning is winning is winning. We might get a group of the best scabs and enjoy winning, who knows?! But my guess is that the beer would be just as cold, the companionship would be just as rich, and the experience would be just as satisfying.

rocker
01-10-2010, 04:53 PM
it would depend on how bad it is.

MLS isn't world class, but you do get brilliance at times... enough times to keep up the faith.
I watch USL games and can see it isn't up to the MLS standard, so I'm sure I'd notice a difference.

If some replacements went out there and really stunk i'm sure they'd hear it.
Also, there's a diff between supporting MLS players and supporting replacements. everyone would know these guys are replacements before they step into the stadium, so it would probably cloud people's judgments.

Now, if the quality of replacement players had been the quality of all of MLS since the beginning of TFC, then people would have just accepted that as the level. I don't think people would be fooled now. I already hear a lot of people in my row (Eurosnobs) complain about the quality as it is.

Blazer
01-10-2010, 04:57 PM
But how do we know that the level of RP wouldn’t be substantially different than what we currently have is what I’m asking?

Oldtimer
01-11-2010, 08:28 AM
But how do we know that the level of RP wouldn’t be substantially different than what we currently have is what I’m asking?

It would be. MLS is not very good compared to the EPL or the SPL. However, you would notice the difference between MLS and CSL players. In fact, I even notice the difference in all MLS teams from today when I watch old matches from 2007. One's memory tends to forget how much the league has improved since the DP rule was instituted. Not because of the DPs so much, rather it is because players in some of Europe's less glamorous leagues now consider MLS a legitimate option.

Unlike most people on this board, I watched Lynx matches before TFC came. The difference in quality between the average USL-1 match (i.e. when there is no CCL spot available) and the average MLS match is like night and day. Also, as has been noted, we wouldn't even get USL-1/NASL quality players.

It is like the difference between the Championship and League 1. Both of them compare very poorly when compared with the EPL, but the Championship has way better football than League 1, even though it happens sometimes that a League 1 side will beat a Premiership side in cup play.

ManUtd4ever
03-18-2010, 03:28 PM
BUMP...

I thought this thread is worth revisiting in light of recent nondevelopments in the ongoing labour dispute and the article in the news section indicating that the owners do in fact have a contingency plan in place to use scabs in the event of a player strike.

For the record, I'm loyal to the badge first and foremost and I would give it a shot. If the disparity in talent is so drastic that it would be more unbareable to watch than yesterday's game against DC, then I would wait until the players return before attending other matches. What about you?

ensco
03-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Endgame.

No point using NFL/MLB/NBA as comparables. 75% of MLS players could just leave the sport forever without taking a financial hit.

What's interesting to me is the league's unwillingness to take the olive branch that the players offered in setting a reasonable strike date. By taking this hard line, Leiweke/Checketts are encouraging the players to take a harder line, which would be this: putting off a strike vote until after the season starts. A walkout in mid April, after the season has started, would be much more devastating than a strike that starts before the first game.

Sure, the players would lose a strike. Eventually most would cross, but more than you think would never come back on principle, I'd wager. It would never be the same.

MLS doesn't have the stature of the NFL. They can win the battle but would lose the war. They're fools if they continue down this path.

The hardcore fans, the only ones MLS should really care about, will side with the players, and will not embrace a scab league.

ManUtd4ever
03-18-2010, 03:46 PM
Endgame.

No point using NFL/MLB/NBA as comparables. 75% of MLS players could just leave the sport forever without taking a financial hit.

What's interesting to me is the league's unwillingness to take the olive branch that the players offered in setting a reasonable strike date. By taking this hard line, Leiweke/Checketts are encouraging the players to take a harder line, which would be this: putting off a strike vote until after the season starts. A walkout in mid April, after the season has started, would be much more devastating than a strike that starts before the first game.

Sure, the players would lose a strike. Eventually most would cross, but more than you think would never come back on principle, I'd wager. It would never be the same.

MLS doesn't have the stature of the NFL. They can win the battle but would lose the war. They're fools if they continue down this path.

The hardcore fans, the only ones MLS should really care about, will side with the players, and will not embrace a scab league.

I would need more information regarding the concessions made by both sides before making a decision. If for example, the owners are willing to increase the base player salaries and team salary cap to reasonable levels and provide guaranteed contracts but the players still go on strike because of their insistence on free agency I would side with the owners. I would try to embrace TFC with scabs until players start crossing picket lines and then it would be back to business as usual...

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 03:47 PM
The hardcore fans, the only ones MLS should really care about, will side with the players, and will not embrace a scab league.




I'm just curious, why should they be the only fans MLS should care about? Are there enough hardcore fans? Are more fans becoming hardcore? What makes a fan hardcore?

I guess people have been working on this for a long time - just how many soccer fans are there in the USA and what will it take to get them to buy tickets to the games and get them to watch American teams on TV.

It seems with such a crowded sports landscape in the USA that a soccer league is going to have to attract fans from other sports.

In Canada I can see many people being hockey fans in the winter and soccer fan in the summer - but in the US you have to factor in baseball, NBA, NFL and all the NCAA sports.

Are there really enough hardcore soccer fans to make the league a success?

Detroit_TFC
03-18-2010, 03:51 PM
I think I would just redirect my footie interests for the duration.

ManUtd4ever
03-18-2010, 03:53 PM
I'm just curious, why should they be the only fans MLS should care about? Are there enough hardcore fans? Are more fans becoming hardcore? What makes a fan hardcore?

I guess people have been working on this for a long time - just how many soccer fans are there in the USA and what will it take to get them to buy tickets to the games and get them to watch American teams on TV.

It seems with such a crowded sports landscape in the USA that a soccer league is going to have to attract fans from other sports.

In Canada I can see many people being hockey fans in the winter and soccer fan in the summer - but in the US you have to factor in baseball, NBA, NFL and all the NCAA sports.

Are there really enough hardcore soccer fans to make the league a success?

I would think that the success of the league at the moment hinges on the interest of casual fans that make up at least 80% of the demographic fan base in my opinion. It is for that reason that I think the owners are willing to live with the fallout for employing scabs on a temporary basis...

McBrace
03-18-2010, 03:53 PM
I'm just curious, why should they be the only fans MLS should care about? Are there enough hardcore fans? Are more fans becoming hardcore? What makes a fan hardcore?

I guess people have been working on this for a long time - just how many soccer fans are there in the USA and what will it take to get them to buy tickets to the games and get them to watch American teams on TV.

It seems with such a crowded sports landscape in the USA that a soccer league is going to have to attract fans from other sports.

In Canada I can see many people being hockey fans in the winter and soccer fan in the summer - but in the US you have to factor in baseball, NBA, NFL and all the NCAA sports.

Are there really enough hardcore soccer fans to make the league a success?

Well a strike during the world cup isn't going to help... The Time is now for the MLS to make a mark in the US.. They seem to have a decent National team.. People always seam to get the soccer fever during these times...If they fail to make it work with the players, Scabs would only dig a deeper hole for the entire MLS...Imagine watching WC all day and then watching MLS scabs.. Man that would be painful....

Frick
03-18-2010, 03:56 PM
For all the people who say they won't support the team, and have already paid for their season tickets, what do you plan to do with your tickets? I can't see the owners refunding your money.

McBrace
03-18-2010, 04:00 PM
No refund expected... But I would expect lots of scalping or donations to local soccer groups.... LOL

ensco
03-18-2010, 04:02 PM
I'm just curious, why should they be the only fans MLS should care about?

They're the base - the season ticket holders, the ones who will watch on TV, the ones who buy merchandise. They provide much of the gameday experience (some of them anyway) that make soccer a unique experience. I'd wager they're 20% of fans but represent a much higher percentage of revenues (an absolute finger-in-the-air guess on my part). Don't let these boards fool you - in the case of TFC, a lot of the hardcore are "suits" and sit in the more expensive seats.


Are there enough hardcore fans? Are more fans becoming hardcore?

There's not enough, but you can't alienate the ones you have. This is what RBNY have done, and look where they are - only 8,000 SSH in the most drop dead gorgeous, well located SSS in the universe.

TFC and Seattle show that you can create a base from nothing. Not clear if there's a natural ceiling on how many there could be. A lot depends on ability to convert world soccer fans to MLS, most of whom don't care yet. (Note: converting this market is why MLSE put on the RM friendly.)


What makes a fan hardcore?

It's like Supreme Court Justice Brandeis said about pornography - I can't tell you precisely what it is, but I know it when I see it!

Boondaddy
03-18-2010, 04:04 PM
For all the people who say they won't support the team, and have already paid for their season tickets, what do you plan to do with your tickets? I can't see the owners refunding your money.

make holiday garlands for the Christmas Tree???

Keystone FC
03-18-2010, 04:05 PM
I support TFC....whoever they may be.
Toronto Til I Die. It's not just a chant to me.

ensco
03-18-2010, 04:09 PM
For all the people who say they won't support the team, and have already paid for their season tickets, what do you plan to do with your tickets? I can't see the owners refunding your money.

NO REFUND = NO RENEWAL.

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 04:10 PM
They're the base - the season ticket holders, the ones who will watch on TV, the ones who buy merchandise. They provide much of the gameday experience (some of them anyway) that make soccer a unique experience. I'd wager they're 20% of fans but represent 50% of revenues (an absolute finger-in-the-air guess on my part).



TFC and Seattle show that you can create a base from nothing. Not clear id there's a natural ceiling on how many there could be. A lot depends on ability to convert world soccer fans to MLS, most of whom don't care yet. (Note: converting this market is why MLSE put on the RM friendly.)



It's like Supreme Court Justice Brandeis said about pornography - I can't tell you precisely what it is, but I know it when I see it!

I like pornography analogy, I think it works well ;). I'd also say that the 50% of revenue figure is probably a very accurate guess.

Are Toronto and Seattle typical American cities? Is the same "nothing" in enough cities to build a whole league? There are some things that do make Toronto and even Seattle different from most American cities - as hard as the big-box, fast-food, Wal-Mart culture tries to make every city the same, they aren't yet.

I guess we'll see.

But one thing's for sure, a trike or a lockout would deadly. Some fans may side with owners and some with fans but most won't care either way and enough momentum will be lost it'll be very tough to get it back in most markets.

Shaughno
03-18-2010, 04:11 PM
NO REFUND = NO RENEWAL.


Yup. 100%.

JDG
03-18-2010, 04:16 PM
I support the players in as much as I understand the issues seperating the two negotiating parties.
I would not watch replacement players but it has nothing to do with principles related to picketlines or unions.
I would not watch replacement players because the quality on the pitch at the best of times is bad. I'm not going to spend money on a lower quality product.
If all contracts are cancelled, and replacement players are permanent replacements, I'll need to rethink my position.
I am a season ticket holder, and a supporter because I want to see high quality Football in North America. What I currently pay for is not up to snuff, but I know that it never will be unless I throw my support in now. I support the badge, but more importantly, I support the vision of high quality Football in North America.
If the league fails over this, then my efforts have been in vain.

OneLoveOneEric
03-18-2010, 04:21 PM
NO REFUND = NO RENEWAL.

They absolutely will not refund the money.
I didn't even get a refund from MLSE when the NHL cancelled an entire season. My entire Leafs season ticket amount was held over until the next season.
So don't expect anything different here.

ensco
03-18-2010, 04:27 PM
They absolutely will not refund the money.
I didn't even get a refund from MLSE when the NHL cancelled an entire season. My entire Leafs season ticket amount was held over until the next season.
So don't expect anything different here.

They gave 100% credit towards the next year, though, which really is the same as a refund, is it not?

OneLoveOneEric
03-18-2010, 04:28 PM
Well, sort of.
I could have used the money over the interim year. It feels shitty to prepay for games 2 years in advance, even if the price is the same, you know?

Shaughno
03-18-2010, 04:29 PM
And if I decide not to renew the following year?

RoyalMidfielder
03-18-2010, 04:32 PM
If it comes down to it, I would probably support the replacement players. Surely even a replacement RB would be better than Marvell Wynne! :D

Boondaddy
03-18-2010, 04:36 PM
If it comes down to it, I would probably support the replacement players. Surely even a replacement RB would be better than Marvell Wynne! :D

:facepalm:

ensco
03-18-2010, 04:37 PM
And if I decide not to renew the following year?

My recollection is they gave you a refund, with 2% interest (when rates were more like 5%), a year late. Not 100% sure.

Gobi
03-18-2010, 04:38 PM
They gave 100% credit towards the next year, though, which really is the same as a refund, is it not?

No, because MLSE is earning 12 months of interest on that money, and you're not.

OneLoveOneEric
03-18-2010, 04:39 PM
My recollection is they gave you a refund, with 2% interest (when rates were more like 5%), a year late. Not 100% sure.

Yes. It was something along those lines.

Shaughno
03-18-2010, 04:50 PM
Fucking thieving cunts. If you're collection interest, I want it back too bitches.

Auzzy
03-18-2010, 04:56 PM
Just wondering, are replacement workers/scabs allowed in a unionized strike situation in Ontario? I thought they were banned, then Mike Harris allowed them, and then they were banned again after Harris????

olegunnar
03-18-2010, 06:02 PM
I think this is an interesting thread. So many times we hear....we're lucky to have a team, remember when we didn't even have one? Or...a sunny saturday at BMO, a few pints with my friends, watching some footy...is there anything better?

Scab players won't change anything in those regards. You'll still have a team, you'll still be able to get hammered with your buddies. It'll just be different names on the back of the jerseys....and our defense will probably be better with no Garcia on the field.

Still the thread is pretty much anti going to games with replacement players for some reason.

ensco
03-18-2010, 06:08 PM
Still the thread is pretty much anti going to games with replacement players for some reason.

It's more than the sweater. Management/ownership will always own the sweater.

At a basic level, ownership is irrelevant. There is a "holy trinity" between the players, the fans and the manager. It's unique to soccer, it's why Mo must go (he has no interest in or respect for this concept) and it's why I would be insulted if asked to support replacement players or games.

Pigfynn
03-18-2010, 06:58 PM
Goff's twitter:


MLS labor meetings still going on. Dinner break and then back to work. Good sign? #mls (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23mls) 8 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/SoccerInsider/status/10695656566)via web

TFCRegina
03-18-2010, 06:59 PM
I support a replacement player for Nick Garcia.

THA BUTCHA
03-18-2010, 07:16 PM
Anybody thinking of supporting this team with replacements is a fool.
and it has nothing to do with being pro/anti union.

They may not admit it but this strike has everything to do with SINGLE Entity.
the players don't want it but are using Free agency as the way to end it.

Single entity is the number one reason MLS Play is mediocre at best and will never reach a competitive balance with any decent european league or even the mexican league.

I WANT TFC TO BE RELEVANT IN WORLD FOOTBALL.

SUPPORTING THE PLAYERS MAKE THAT A POSSIBILITY.

Roogsy
03-18-2010, 07:18 PM
I will not go to any games with scab players, period. Not one. I will eat every single ticket I have paid for but I will not contribute to the sham of a season if there are scab players.

Roogsy
03-18-2010, 07:20 PM
I think this is an interesting thread. So many times we hear....we're lucky to have a team, remember when we didn't even have one? Or...a sunny saturday at BMO, a few pints with my friends, watching some footy...is there anything better?

Scab players won't change anything in those regards. You'll still have a team, you'll still be able to get hammered with your buddies. It'll just be different names on the back of the jerseys....and our defense will probably be better with no Garcia on the field.

Still the thread is pretty much anti going to games with replacement players for some reason.

Because the heart and soul of any team are the players and going to watch a team without the top players available to them is a swindle and a sham.

Would you pay $1000 to go see a UEFA Champions League match with replacement players even if it was your team on the pitch?

Heart of Stone
03-18-2010, 07:22 PM
Team sports is inherently left-wing and about sacrifice for the common good therefore I would support the wishes of the players' union come hell or high water.

THA BUTCHA
03-18-2010, 07:26 PM
are the TFC Supporters gonna make a press release Supporting the players?

Super
03-18-2010, 07:39 PM
Team sports is inherently left-wing and about sacrifice for the common good therefore I would support the wishes of the players' union come hell or high water.

Professional team sports to me is more about individualsm, capitalism and free trade than anything else these days. Sure, they're told to act as a team, but they're no different than any corporation where a team of people have been put together - some more important than others - to produce a result. And just like any corporation you will have members of the team defect for more money or perks elsewhere.

Heart of Stone
03-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Glad to hear the RPB is all about: All for one, One for all

Roogsy
03-18-2010, 08:08 PM
^ That's a ridiculous statement and completely unnecessary. If you're going to paint a group with a broad brush at the very least do it elsewhere instead of on the website of the group you are talking about. :rolleyes:

AL-MO
03-18-2010, 08:11 PM
Glad to hear the RPB is all about: All for one, One for all



This is not a black and white situation IMO.

olegunnar
03-18-2010, 08:25 PM
Because the heart and soul of any team are the players and going to watch a team without the top players available to them is a swindle and a sham.



For the record I haven't made up my own mind as to what I'd do if there were replacement players.

I made my post because the results of this poll are in direct conflict to the sentiments over the past 3+ years on this board and it's previous incarnation.


I quoted your statement because I find it confusing. I'd expect the sentiment you expressed from someone that paid to see a friendly...like for example someone that only bought tickets to the RM game and would have been disappointed if they didn't play their stars. Kind of like "I paid X amount to see robhino...not to support Santos against NYRB"

I wouldn't necessarily expect that sentiment on a supporters message board. I was under the impression the supporters here were Toronto til they died....not I'm not going unless Dero suits up.

Now for me the wiggle room is that this is a sham to begin with even if the "regular" players play...it's a franchise....posing as a "club"...thats my out...should I decide not to go support replacement players

olegunnar
03-18-2010, 08:26 PM
This is not a black and white situation IMO.

I agree...it's complicated and interesting to hash out the different viewpoints.

Mikey
03-18-2010, 08:40 PM
Looking at the actual issues involved, rather than just the concept of crossing a picket line, it turns out I'm fully behind the players.

I think if the league and calibre of play is going to move forward, the financial restrictions put in place that enable owners to still run a franchise while only getting 4-5000 supporters a game needs to change. Pay the players properly and allow them to have the same rights as other Fifa endorsed leagues or change the branding to minor league soccer to reflect the reality and the lack of risk / commitment being taken by the owners.

Oh and I would cross the picket line if they have replacement players....how else would my squad get in there with our bag of ref's whistles?

denime
03-18-2010, 08:58 PM
NO Thanks

You want me to pay FULL price for replacement players, well Mr. Garber and owners I have a message for you GO F:dita::dita::hand::hand: yourself.

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 09:34 PM
I'm not paying full price for scabs.

If someone tells me I should be supporting the 'badge' in this instance, I will laugh at them the same way I laugh at people who think Mo Johnston deserves more chances to ruin our club.

I would expect a FULL refund from TFC if they had the balls to tell me I had to pay to watch scabs play.

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 09:49 PM
It's more than the sweater. Management/ownership will always own the sweater.

At a basic level, ownership is irrelevant. There is a "holy trinity" between the players, the fans and the manager. It's unique to soccer, it's why Mo must go (he has no interest in or respect for this concept) and it's why I would be insulted if asked to support replacement players or games.

Sorry, but I just don't see that at all. I have no prior experience with soccer so this team is all I've seen. When I came on this board for the first time people were saying that soccer fans, sorry, "football supporters" were different - now, three years later it looks exactly the same as a Leafs discussion to me. No difference at all. Fans run Larry Murphy out of town and watch him anchor the Red Wings defence to two Stanley Cups and demand big contracts for Tie Domi and Darcy Tucker and MLSE gives them what they want.

If there's some "Holy Trinity" it may exist in other countries, but this MLSE team is exactly the same as the other MLSE teams. Maybe changing the GM will help (it may take three or four more if Brian Burke really is the answer it took quite a few mistakes to get to him), but I think you're looking for something here you're just not going to find.

Roogsy
03-18-2010, 09:50 PM
A jersey and a badge is only symbolic of what is under it.

I go to support the players who are donning the jersey.

For me to blindly say that I will support anyone who puts on a TFC jersey is nonsense. I support what the jersey represents, and that is not replacement players.

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 09:56 PM
Sorry, but I just don't see that at all. I have no prior experience with soccer so this team is all I've seen. When I came on this board for the first time people were saying that soccer fans, sorry, "football supporters" were different - now, three years later it looks exactly the same as a Leafs discussion to me. No difference at all. Fans run Larry Murphy out of town and watch him anchor the Red Wings defence to two Stanley Cups and demand big contracts for Tie Domi and Darcy Tucker and MLSE gives them what they want.

If there's some "Holy Trinity" it may exist in other countries, but this MLSE team is exactly the same as the other MLSE teams. Maybe changing the GM will help (it may take three or four more if Brian Burke really is the answer it took quite a few mistakes to get to him), but I think you're looking for something here you're just not going to find.

Nope, this 'holy trinity' does not exist. It may have in the past, but not anymore. Soccer is big business in Europe just as it is here with our major sports. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either romanticizing or is trying to sell you something that may have existed in the past, but has been gone a long time ago. But the fact of the matter is, we as sport fans like to suspend belief and try our hardest to believe that it really is different. We want to believe that our support is more true than the support of others. But things like strikes and lock outs really bring out the cynicism and make it hard to believe in the altruism of sport.

I do have one point of contention though, I don't think the fans wanted Domi back, per se. It was Larry Tannenbaum who spear-headed his re-signing, against the wishes of the GM.

TFCtoMUFC
03-18-2010, 09:57 PM
A jersey and a badge is only symbolic of what is under it.

I go to support the players who are donning the jersey.

For me to blindly say that I will support anyone who puts on a TFC jersey is nonsense. I support what the jersey represents, and that is not replacement players.

+1 . There is no love for TFC without OUR boys on the field.

ensco
03-18-2010, 10:02 PM
Sorry, but I just don't see that at all. I have no prior experience with soccer so this team is all I've seen. When I came on this board for the first time people were saying that soccer fans, sorry, "football supporters" were different - now, three years later it looks exactly the same as a Leafs discussion to me. No difference at all. Fans run Larry Murphy out of town and watch him anchor the Red Wings defence to two Stanley Cups and demand big contracts for Tie Domi and Darcy Tucker and MLSE gives them what they want.

If there's some "Holy Trinity" it may exist in other countries, but this MLSE team is exactly the same as the other MLSE teams. Maybe changing the GM will help (it may take three or four more if Brian Burke really is the answer it took quite a few mistakes to get to him), but I think you're looking for something here you're just not going to find.

We agree (and you are certainly making another point that supports siding with the players!). I am holding this team to a standard that almost certainly guarantees disappointment, given the ownership. Why oh why couldn't we get the Sounders ownership....?

btw for the other poster... the "Holy Trinity" idea doesn't exist only in my head! It has been around for decades.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/5381414.stm

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 10:05 PM
Nope, this 'holy trinity' only exists in ensco's head. Soccer is big business in Europe just as it is here with our major sports. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either romanticizing or is trying to sell you something that may have existed in the past, but has been gone a long time ago. But the fact of the matter is, we as sport fans like to suspend belief and try our hardest to believe that it really is different. We want to believe that our support is more true than the support of others. But things like strikes and lock outs really bring out the cynicism and make it hard to believe in the altruism of sport.

I do have one point of contention, I don't think the fans wanted Domi back, per se. It was Larry Tannenbaum who spear-headed his re-signing, against the wishes of the GM.

Yes, you may be right about Domi and Tannenbaum (there was a family connection, wasn't there?), but the key point is, "against the wishes of the GM." I could have used bringing back Wendel Clark or Doug Gilmour or so many more examples of MLSE trying to do what they think the fans want - and the fans are never 100% united onwhat they want, so the company makes its best guess.

But really, what's the difference between the current roster and replacement players? Except for a couple of kids, all these players have played for other teams and would still be playing for other teams if they could make more money doing it (even DeRo spent most of the off-season bitching that even though he's getting more here than Houston it isn't enough - JDG held out so long last season was lost).

This is the roster that 2 and a half million gets you. If these players strike and a different roster of 2 and a half million is brought in, what's the difference?

Really, most people here want the quality of play to be a lot higher, we'd love it if the salary cap was gone and the team invested most of its twenty million dollar profit back into the team - well, would any of these players be on the twenty million dollar roster?

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 10:09 PM
But really, what's the difference between the current roster and replacement players?

Where are they even going to get replacement players from? Definitely not from the USL, because the players they have are already signed to contracts and they won't be able to just jump ship to MLS. So you would be looking at are players at the CSL level (or the American equivalent to that). Semi-pro players. With possibly some MLS and USL free agents sprinkled in.

You want to pay full prices for that kind of garbage?

And I doubt they hit their cap with scabs.

One more thing, I also believe that it will take them at least a month from the day they decide to use scabs to actually get the league running again. Its not like they can just snap their fingers and all 16 teams will just magically have rosters full of players. This is hypothetical, of course.

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 10:15 PM
We agree (and you are certainly making another point that supports siding with the players!). I am holding this team to a standard that almost certainly guarantees disappointment, given the ownership. Why oh why couldn't we get the Sounders ownership....?

btw for the other poster... the "Holy Trinity" idea doesn't exist only in my head! It has been around for decades.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/5381414.stm


Because there's no Joe Roth or Drew Carey in Toronto - we're a city of non-risk taking bankers. Our biggest movie producer is Robert Lantos, and unlike Joe Roth none of his movies have ever made any money and he gets Telefilm to finance them all (okay, a little off topic but closer to my business and it drives me crazy ;).

For a while the Argos had John Candy and it was great.

But there's no one in this city now.

I like the idea of the Holy Trinity, but ownership isn't irrelevant - it's vitally important. It just has to be the right ownership. The thing about MLSE is that it actually tries to respond to the fans' demands - but those demands tend to be more about personality than anything else. The fans pick heroes and goats and MLSE tries to go along with it. It's a doomed system. It's really what happened to the Leafs these past ten years.

The fans, us, we're really the mob on The Simpsons, we bend whichever way the wind is blowing - we want more Canadian players, sign Ali Gerba, get us JDG, get us DeRo! We want South American players! We get Vitti. We want an experienceed MLS coach! We get Preki. Mo must go, we'll get someone else who passes the MLSE hiring interview, you think that will be someone who gets to call all the shots himself? (actually that might happen. I have a feeling that Brian Burke got a better deal than most other GM candidates would have because the fans were finally demanding that a Stanley Cup winning GM be given complete control of the team and he was the one available. If we demand an MLS Cup winning manager be given complete control he might get it. Being a non-risk taking corporation they would need to see that Cup on his resume).

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 10:19 PM
The thing about MLSE is that it actually tries to respond to the fans' demands - but those demands tend to be more about personality than anything else. The fans pick heroes and goats and MLSE tries to go along with it. It's a doomed system. It's really what happened to the Leafs these past ten years.

Any GM, in any sport, that makes moves based on the whims of fans is doomed to failure.

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 10:28 PM
Any GM, in any sport, that makes moves based on the whims of fans is doomed to failure.

Of course, but any GM that ignores the whishes of his bosses is also doomed to failure.

The point is some ownerships hand over operations of the team to a manager and some don't. Depends on the ownership and it depends on the GM.

Maybe MLSE have handed the Leafs over to Burke, but they certainly didn't to JF JR (and there was plenty of drama with the whole Quinn-Fletcher-Dryden holy trinity and lots of ownership interference).

Maybe they'll hand over complete control of TFC to the next GM, but chances are they'll repeat what they've done here - hire someone on a short leash (one or two year contract) and let it out a little at a time, they'll set objectives like any job's performance review would cover (more points than last season, sold out stadium, profits, etc.,) and when those objectives are met the GM will get a little more power and another one or two year contract.

It's a system that's designed to make a profit, but not win a championship.

Auzzy
03-18-2010, 10:30 PM
Folks, I'm really wondering, is there anyone on these boards who is familiar with ON labour law & related issues? Or know someone who is?

I thought that perhaps replacement players/scabs are not allowed in a unionized strike situation in Ontario...? I remember this being a big point of discussion before & during the Mike Harris days.

Anybody able to confirm or refute that? Thanks. That might make things extra interesting for TFC in this situation...

Roogsy
03-18-2010, 10:34 PM
Folks, I'm really wondering, is there anyone on these boards who is familiar with ON labour law & related issues? Or know someone who is?

I thought that perhaps replacement players/scabs are not allowed in a unionized strike situation in Ontario...? I remember this being a big point of discussion before & during the Mike Harris days.

Anybody able to confirm or refute that? Thanks. That might make things extra interesting for TFC in this situation...


Shoot...good point!

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 10:35 PM
Folks, I'm really wondering, is there anyone on these boards who is familiar with ON labour law & related issues? Or know someone who is?

I thought that perhaps replacement players/scabs are not allowed in a unionized strike situation in Ontario...? I remember this being a big point of discussion before & during the Mike Harris days.

Anybody able to confirm or refute that? Thanks. That might make things extra interesting for TFC in this situation...

Replacement worker's are allowed in Ontario.

The funny thing is, I believe that Quebec and BC are the only provinces that do not allow scabs. If the strike was going to happen in 2011 (or some other time in the future), the Whitecaps wouldn't be able to play, neither would the Impact (if they ever did join the league)

Beach_Red
03-18-2010, 10:37 PM
Replacement worker's are allowed in Ontario.


Has any other league besides the NFL ever tried replacement players? It just sounds like a terrible idea. And ther would be a lot of jurisdictions to try and make it work - every state would have its own laws, right?

There seems to be many, many reasons why it wouldn't work and no good reason to do it.

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 10:40 PM
Has any other league besides the NFL ever tried replacement players? It just sounds like a terrible idea. And ther would be a lot of jurisdictions to try and make it work - every state would have its own laws, right?

There seems to be many, many reasons why it wouldn't work and no good reason to do it.

California sounds like the kind of state that would have an anti-scab law.

I'll check that....

Boondaddy
03-18-2010, 10:45 PM
Glad to hear the RPB is all about: All for one, One for all

:facepalm:

Auzzy
03-18-2010, 10:48 PM
Replacement worker's are allowed in Ontario.



OK, thanks for the info! So I guess the Mike Harris law was never reversed, I couldn't remember. (I believe replacement workers were banned before that in Ontario, at least during the NDP government.)

HOPEFULLY cooler heads will prevail & they will negotiate some kind of deal for MLS. These contract negotiations are very often resolved in the last minute.

(Where's a "fingers crossed" smilie when you need one...)

menefreghista
03-18-2010, 10:49 PM
The Ontario NDP tried to pass an anti-scab law in October of 2009 but it failed.

Cashcleaner
03-18-2010, 11:45 PM
Glad to hear the RPB is all about: All for one, One for all

Isn't there some march going on somewhere you should be at?

TFCtoMUFC
03-19-2010, 12:02 AM
The Ontario NDP tried to pass an anti-scab law in October of 2009 but it failed.

I laugh at anything Howard Hampton tries to do.

RicoSuave44
03-19-2010, 01:13 AM
I laugh at anything Howard Hampton tries to do.


Was it Howard Hampton or Andrea Howath?

TFC247
03-19-2010, 03:18 AM
I think if the league and calibre of play is going to move forward, the financial restrictions put in place that enable owners to still run a franchise while only getting 4-5000 supporters a game needs to change. Pay the players properly and allow them to have the same rights as other Fifa endorsed leagues or change the branding to minor league soccer to reflect the reality and the lack of risk / commitment being taken by the owners.
Another charity post looking for free handouts. Of course we all want players to be paid properly. But I didn't hear any of this when we were getting owned by Vancouver and Islanders. Only way we can win a championship is by beating up on a division 2 reserve squad. And it's not just us, we see every year MLS teams get knocked out of Open Cup in numbers by supposedly inferior USL teams. Or make that USL division 2. Crystal Palace Baltimore anyone?

Were we (as in any MLS clubs) ever competitive, let alone win, in Concacaf CL? Where were all these players complaining when they were getting knocked out of CCL by some no name clubs from caribbean and central america with even lower payroll? Joe Public anyone?

Seriously, if you take out JDG and other top 1 or 2 players out of each MLS teams, are we that much different than USL/NASL counterparts? Maybe you're right, maybe we should name our league to Minor League Soccer just based on our international performance alone.

I'm all for properly paying the players, but only who derserve it. I said it and I'll say it again, you can pay a shitty player more money, but at the end of the day, he'll still be a shitty player,except with more money. Is that what you mean by reality?

Mikey
03-19-2010, 06:42 AM
The concept of supposed professional "major" league sports players earning 30k aside, theres not one person here who would be happy if they lost their job or finished a work contract and could ony get a new one if their new prospective employer paid off their previous employer first.
Even though there was no existing contract, and you no longer worked for them.

If a player has completed the terms of their contract or are released, they should be free to pursue their chosen career without having to find someone willing to reimburse their previous employer for giving them a job.
EDIT* And dont get me started on the notion that players have no say at all in being transferred to another team, other than giving up their career!

rocker
03-19-2010, 07:06 AM
theres not one person here who would be happy if they lost their job or finished a work contract and could ony get a new one if their new prospective employer paid off their previous employer first.
Even though there was no existing contract, and you no longer worked for them.


MLS is one employer contractually (all contracts are signed with MLS).
You can work for MLS.... or you can work for MLS ;)
You are not working for a different employer. That's single entity.

MLS has rules on moving around the company. Many companies have such rules on employee movement (employees don't have the right to move around at their whim).

MLS needs certain rules on movement otherwise it could be charged with favouritism in allocating players to teams (already MLS gets charged with favouritism to LA for the Donovan thing). Without any rules Garber could stock up any team he likes.

Free agency can't exist when no matter which division you want to to go, the final contract offer comes from one entity (MLS). There would be no transparency and independence in negotiations otherwise.

I_AM_CANADIAN
03-19-2010, 07:21 AM
I don't support the principle of scab workers, but I can't see how they could do worse than the regular team has done over the last three years. :( lol

I voted no, in any case.

Section 117
03-19-2010, 07:26 AM
I would support replacement players if they signed me to play and I would demand the same amount of money that Garcia makes as wouldn't be as bad as he is

FluSH
03-19-2010, 07:35 AM
Glad to hear the RPB is all about: All for one, One for all

You're talking shit about a lot of people you hear... including myself.

I would strongly recommend that you don't make comments like that.

Section 117
03-19-2010, 07:40 AM
and if TFC didn't sign me as a replacement player then no I would not support them

koryo
03-19-2010, 07:43 AM
My point of view on this is one that MLSE can understand - though likely not agree with.

If it comes to replacement players, then we're looking at a significant drop in the quality of the product. That said, I'm not paying a full season's ticket price to watch what will be semi-professional football. So if MLSE gives a damn about showing a bit of loyalty - and not throwing a fistful of shit in our faces - then they damn well better:

1. set a season discount of 50% for watching scabs for a full season (30 games)
2. calculate the final discount as a percentage of games played by scabs (x).

Frankly, I'd rather the season just not happen then have replacement players. But let's be realistic about it: if there's even a dollar to be made, the powers that be will put any old crap on the pitch to make it. As far as vocal support for scab FC? Don't count on it from me.

Shaughno
03-19-2010, 07:46 AM
I would support replacement players if they signed me to play and I would demand the same amount of money that Garcia makes as wouldn't be as bad as he is


and if TFC didn't sign me as a replacement player then no I would not support them

Agreed. Sign me up Mo :lol:


My point of view on this is one that MLSE can understand - though likely not agree with.

If it comes to replacement players, then we're looking at a significant drop in the quality of the product. That said, I'm not paying a full season's ticket price to watch what will be semi-professional football. So if MLSE gives a damn about showing a bit of loyalty - and not throwing a fistful of shit in our faces - then they damn well better:

1. set a season discount of 50% for watching scabs for a full season (30 games)
2. calculate the final discount as a percentage of games played by scabs (x).

Frankly, I'd rather the season just not happen then have replacement players. But let's be realistic about it: if there's even a dollar to be made, the powers that be will put any old crap on the pitch to make it. As far as vocal support for scab FC? Don't count on it from me.

Amen.

Boris
03-19-2010, 09:30 AM
Glad to hear the RPB is all about: All for one, One for all

bold statement.....

pdelgadinho
03-19-2010, 09:45 AM
MLS is one employer contractually (all contracts are signed with MLS).
You can work for MLS.... or you can work for MLS ;)
You are not working for a different employer. That's single entity.

MLS has rules on moving around the company. Many companies have such rules on employee movement (employees don't have the right to move around at their whim).

MLS needs certain rules on movement otherwise it could be charged with favouritism in allocating players to teams (already MLS gets charged with favouritism to LA for the Donovan thing). Without any rules Garber could stock up any team he likes.

Free agency can't exist when no matter which division you want to to go, the final contract offer comes from one entity (MLS). There would be no transparency and independence in negotiations otherwise.

Well put Rocker. Too bad nobody seems to care about the facts. If they did then I doubt we would see so many people supporting one side or the other so strongly. The negotiations between the players and the league have been so secretive that there is no way of knowing for sure what demands are being made and what concessions have been given.

I think most MLS players are paid what they should be. Sure there are some overpaid (Garcia) and some underpaid (Nana), but let's not forget that many of the players at the bottom of the salary scale would not be playing pro soccer anywhere if there was no MLS (ie. Lombardo). I think what we all really want is for salaries to be higher so we can entice better players to join MLS, and we can all watch a better product. It's easy to put the TFC blinders on and say MLSE could afford to pay higher salaries, but could all the other teams!? Regardless of how well soccer is doing in a few cities (Toronto, Seattle), it still has a long way to go and I doubt cities like Kansas City, Columbus, Colorado, etc. would be able to survive without many of the rules and restrictions currently in place that have helped the league get this far.

If it's true that a lot of teams are still losing money then I support the league in refusing free agency to keep single entity, but I would support the players in increasing the minimum salary and small annual increases to the salary cap. But until I know what demands are being made and what concessions have been given, I can't say who I would support during a strike (and the use of replacement players). If the league is being greedy then I will support our players on the picket line, but if the players are being greedy then I won't have any qualms about letting them know it as I cross their picket line to go watch the replacements.

olegunnar
03-19-2010, 09:48 AM
I would support replacement players if they signed me to play and I would demand the same amount of money that Garcia makes as wouldn't be as bad as he is

Mo promised me that I'd be the replacement DP...beat that! Can't make it offical yet since the strike isn't official, but he gave me his word, all I have to do is quit my job so I'm available to be signed and wait patiently for the strike to happen.

The only caveat is that Barry Mclean will have to be my agent...but hey...who cares...I'm the replacement DP baby!

Oblio2
03-19-2010, 10:47 AM
Replacement players or not...Im a better forward than some of our current players!

Davenport
03-19-2010, 10:51 AM
What a fucked up league, club, GM, squad.

It all promised so much when TFC was born.

It's all gone wrong.

TFC247
03-19-2010, 10:58 AM
The concept of supposed professional "major" league sports players earning 30k aside, theres not one person here who would be happy if they lost their job or finished a work contract and could ony get a new one if their new prospective employer paid off their previous employer first.
Even though there was no existing contract, and you no longer worked for them.

If a player has completed the terms of their contract or are released, they should be free to pursue their chosen career without having to find someone willing to reimburse their previous employer for giving them a job.
EDIT* And dont get me started on the notion that players have no say at all in being transferred to another team, other than giving up their career!Again, no one just handed out free agency just because it's a "professional" sports. In any "professional" league, it's something that's earned by their players either through years of negotiation or through court ruling. In NFL, the concept of "free agent" didn't start until 1993 when it lost its court ruling. Even then, there're still many rules, such as "accrued years" or "franchise tag", that restricts players from being comletely free.

Maybe it could be negotiated and attained in the future, when players have much more leverage and the league is stable enough. But I just don't see owners agreeing to a free agency with only 15yrs into its existence. It means completely overhauling the league structure. Whether you or I think single entity is right for MLS or not is not the issue. The issue is the fact it's the system that attracted these owners as investors and that they view it as an absolute necessity in survival of the league at this stage.

According to Sounders owner Joe Roth:


However he strongly defended the league’s single-entity structure, which limits player movement and salaries. That structure, Roth implied, is what has allowed this league to survive where other soccer leagues in the United States and Canada have failed. And he also implied that he might not have bought into the league without such a structure to prevent the kind of bidding wars commonly blamed for killing off the North American Soccer League.http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/17/1112436/owner-says-strike-could-kill-mls.html

Who knows, maybe the players are aware of it, and only using it as a negotiating tactic to obtain other things. Not a bad strategy to shoot for the moon.

ManUtd4ever
03-19-2010, 11:07 AM
Again, no one just handed out free agency just because it's a "professional" sports. In any "professional" league, it's something that's earned by their players either through years of negotiation or through court ruling. In NFL, the concept of "free agent" didn't start until 1993 when it lost its court ruling. Even then, there're still many rules, such as "accrued years" or "franchise tag", that restricts players from being comletely free.

Maybe it could be negotiated and attained in the future, when players have much more leverage and the league is stable enough. But I just don't see owners agreeing to a free agency with only 15yrs into its existence. It means completely overhauling the league structure. Whether you or I think single entity is right for MLS or not is not the issue. The issue is the fact it's the system that attracted these owners as investors and that they view it as an absolute necessity in survival of the league at this stage.

According to Sounders owner Joe Roth:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/17/1112436/owner-says-strike-could-kill-mls.html (http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/03/17/1112436/owner-says-strike-could-kill-mls.html)

Who knows, maybe the players are aware of it, and only using it as a negotiating tactic to obtain other things. Not a bad strategy to shoot for the moon.

I hope this in fact the case. If the players end up successfully negotiating an increase in minimum salaries/team salary cap and guaranteed contracts, it can still be viewed as mutually amicable resolution for both parties despite maintaining the single entity structure of the league...

Gobi
03-19-2010, 11:18 AM
The concept of supposed professional "major" league sports players earning 30k aside, theres not one person here who would be happy if they lost their job or finished a work contract and could ony get a new one if their new prospective employer paid off their previous employer first.
Even though there was no existing contract, and you no longer worked for them.

If a player has completed the terms of their contract or are released, they should be free to pursue their chosen career without having to find someone willing to reimburse their previous employer for giving them a job.
EDIT* And dont get me started on the notion that players have no say at all in being transferred to another team, other than giving up their career!

Exactly. At least, this is my understanding of the situation.
A player/worker is out of contract; eg: fired or laid off. But the league/company forbids him from getting a job at a different company, thus keeping him in what can only be called indentured servitude. (But without even having his basic needs met: lodging, food, etc.)
This is a human rights issue. I don't understand how MLS can contest this.

Beach_Red
03-19-2010, 11:27 AM
Exactly. At least, this is my understanding of the situation.
A player/worker is out of contract; eg: fired or laid off. But the league/company forbids him from getting a job at a different company, thus keeping him in what can only be called indentured servitude. (But without even having his basic needs met: lodging, food, etc.)
This is a human rights issue. I don't understand how MLS can contest this.


It's also hard to believe that all owners are united on this. Don't they want to be able to pick up a player out of contract without having to compensate anyone else?

This seems like a bad deal for everyone involved.

P-NUTZ
03-19-2010, 11:27 AM
i wpuld demand a refund for every ticket until the players return.
F - 'em all.

Mark in Ottawa
03-19-2010, 12:06 PM
Diminished league & players = diminished ticket prices?
Not bloody likely.

alexintoronto
03-19-2010, 12:15 PM
I'm not sure if the law is the same - but if the owners try to use replacement players I think there would be some big issues. Maybe TFC could become BFC for a while (Bradenton FC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994%E2%80%9395_Major_League_Baseball_strike



Two days after Anderson's punishment, the Toronto Blue Jays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blue_Jays) assigned manager Cito Gaston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cito_Gaston) and his coaching staff to work with minor league players so that they wouldn't have to deal with replacement players. On March 14, the players' union announced that it would not settle the strike if replacement players were used in regular season games, and if results were not voided. On March 28, the Ontario Labour Board announced that replacement umpires would not be allowed to work Blue Jays home games. Under the Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario) labor law then in force, replacement workers were
not permi
tted to be used during a strike or lockout. The Blue Jays opted to play their home games at their Spring Training facility in Dunedin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunedin,_Florida), Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida) as long as replacement players were used.

Oldtimer
03-19-2010, 12:21 PM
The law was changed in 1995 by Mike Harris.

Razor
03-19-2010, 12:28 PM
No thanks, have better things to do than watch a bunch of replacement players.

Roogsy
03-19-2010, 12:37 PM
We're already in a position where the players we are watching are not exactly world-class...and we're supposed to pay to see players that are not even up to THAT level? And that isn't a swindle?

If I pay for a Honda, it may not be a Bentley, but I expect a Honda. I don't expect a Yugo.

Whoop
03-19-2010, 12:41 PM
I won't go but if I'm Nick Garcia... I'd be very afraid. LOL

Pachuco
03-19-2010, 12:44 PM
I'd rather stab myself in the eye repeteadly then watch a bunch of no names running around the field with the TFC jersey on.

menefreghista
03-19-2010, 12:46 PM
Well put Rocker. Too bad nobody seems to care about the facts.

Speaking about not caring about facts, this is a thread about the hypothetical use of scabs and whether or not people would support them.

The strikes issues are a totally different kettle of fish.

I really don't have an opinion on whether the owners or the players are right on the CBA negotiations. I have not followed that topic nearly as closely as I would like to form an opinion on it.

But I am certain I would not pay to watch replacement players. At least not full price.

Dave67
03-19-2010, 12:48 PM
I doubt it. Having a hard time coming up with a scenario that makes it worth the effort to commute to Toronto on a Saturday to watch a replacement players game at full price. Add in the inevitable (for me) beer purchases & parking and I just can't see the value in it.

TFC07
03-19-2010, 12:48 PM
I'd rather stab myself in the eye repeteadly then watch a bunch of no names running around the field with the TFC jersey on.

Well, most of current TFC players are "no names" as well. :facepalm:

Whoop
03-19-2010, 12:49 PM
I would definitely reconsider if these were the scabs....

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1304/934974756_6e3541e7da_m.jpg

LOL

Just trying to lighten the mood on a gorgeous Friday.

Yohan
03-19-2010, 12:54 PM
http://www.oleole.com/media/main/images/wallpapers/56300/keeley-hazell-footba_70346.jpg

hah! my scab players are better than yours :D

Pachuco
03-19-2010, 12:54 PM
Well, most of current TFC players are "no names" as well. :facepalm:

If you consider them "no names" then do yourself some justice and stop watching and supporting the team. I mean they must be so "no name" that you spend your time talking about this "no name" team on supporter's forums. :facepalm:

TFC07
03-19-2010, 01:01 PM
If you consider them "no names" then do yourself some justice and stop watching and supporting the team. I mean they must be so "no name" that you spend your time talking about this "no name" team on supporter's forums. :facepalm:

I support the team only. I don't care if the players are world class or "no names". If we get replacement players playing this season, I will still support the team and go to games.:scarf:

EDIT: If anything, this might be a good thing for TFC. We can get new players for this season and actually have a chance to play in the playoffs and win it. lol

Roogsy
03-19-2010, 01:51 PM
What constitutes the "team"?

TFC07
03-19-2010, 02:00 PM
Team = club/strips I mean. I support TFC!

Players come and go, but club doesn't (unless the league folds :( )

denime
03-19-2010, 03:25 PM
Team = club/strips I mean. I support TFC!

Players come and go, but club doesn't (unless the league folds :( )

No you support owners( MLSE )and telling our current roster players that you don't give a damn about them and team.

It is said that you don't know what teams means but apparently you support the team.


TEAM is a group of people which play a sport together. Members include all players (even those who are waiting their turn to play) as well as support members such as a team manager or coach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team#Sports_teamsPlayers come and go.
True, but one at the time not all together ,so if they all walk away you won't have a team.

BTW
Ask MANU or Liverpool fans who they support team(players) of owners ;)

Roogsy
03-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Team = club/strips I mean. I support TFC!

Players come and go, but club doesn't (unless the league folds :( )

Like Denime points out...it seems the front office is what you seem to support because they are the owners of the "jersey".

What you forget is that the jersey is just a piece of cloth, what a supporter does is support his fellow soldier. They are on the pitch, we are in the stands, the supposed "12th" man. But apparently, we won't be there for them and side with ownership when the going gets tough? Not much of a 12th man I'd like to have on my side.

Therefore I don't agree with your definition of "team".

Boondaddy
03-19-2010, 03:40 PM
I would definitely reconsider if these were the scabs....

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1304/934974756_6e3541e7da_m.jpg

LOL

Just trying to lighten the mood on a gorgeous Friday.

now we're talkin....but the obvious problem with this is the mass whack off in the stands.

rocker
03-19-2010, 03:47 PM
hypothetically (and fantasy) speaking, what if the scabs were better players??? ;)

Beach_Red
03-19-2010, 03:48 PM
Like Denime points out...it seems the front office is what you seem to support because they are the owners of the "jersey".

What you forget is that the jersey is just a piece of cloth, what a supporter does is support his fellow soldier. They are on the pitch, we are in the stands, the supposed "12th" man. But apparently, we won't be there for them and side with ownership when the going gets tough? Not much of a 12th man I'd like to have on my side.

Therefore I don't agree with your definition of "team".


Okay, but we don't support all the players - after every game on here are long threads about which players need to go - sometimes it's the same guy we loved the week before. We don't support all coaches and managers, we want them fired constantly. We're not the most consistent "12th man" - I guess we fit the team pretty well ;).

The only thing that's consistent, game after game, year after year, is our support of "the team," and the only thing consistent about the team is the ownership, so whether we like it or not, that's what we support.

Until we start to act like Man U fans and put up some banners about the owners.

ManUtd4ever
03-19-2010, 03:52 PM
Okay, but we don't support all the players - after every game on here are long threads about which players need to go - sometimes it's the same guy we loved the week before. We don't support all coaches and managers, we want them fired constantly. We're not the most consistent "12th man" - I guess we fit the team pretty well ;).

The only thing that's consistent, game after game, year after year, is our support of "the team," and the only thing consistent about the team is the ownership, so whether we like it or not, that's what we support.

Until we start to act like Man U fans and put up some banners about the owners.

It's true isn't it. In my opinion, this is all about less talented players, not identity. If for example, a new GM was hired and overhauled most of TFC's roster and we started the season with Frei, JDG, DeRo and a bunch of new players via trades and signings, we would all gradually support them if they performed well on the pitch...

menefreghista
03-19-2010, 03:56 PM
I question the sense of value of people who would have no problem going to games at full price with replacement players.

What would it take to make you feel ripped off?

MLSE must love people like you though.

Boondaddy
03-19-2010, 03:56 PM
I can't believe you lot are still talking about this....MLS or the "lower" leagues would never allow this to happen. It's called integrity. The MANY problems are obvious so let's stop creating issues out of nothing.

Let's move on! 7 pages already....simply wow.

menefreghista
03-19-2010, 03:57 PM
Meh, if you don't like it, don't click on the thread.

Boondaddy
03-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Meh, if you don't like it, don't click on the thread.

ok wise ass. done.

menefreghista
03-19-2010, 04:02 PM
ok wise ass. done.

Not trying to be an ass. There's plenty of topics I don't give a shit about. I just don't read those threads.

Beach_Red
03-19-2010, 04:14 PM
And the comments from the owners (the ones who actually say something) have all been about what a hard line they're going to take, how they have a "plan" to move forward (which certainly sounds like a move backwards).

I would like to see our ownership make a statement that they will honour the contracts of the players they've signed and won't bring in replacement players. I want to see the ownership here care about the team as much as, oh, let's say about half as much as we do. that would be an improvement.

billyfly
03-19-2010, 05:02 PM
What if we won the "MLS Scab Cup" I am giggling just thinking about it.

Robots? Could we use robots?

http://www.ais.uni-bonn.de/nimbro/rs/pics/2vs1_backview_part.jpg

Super
03-19-2010, 05:07 PM
That's the problem with using scab players. It would be a meaningless season - and winning it would really mean nothing to anybody. So then why bother? Why lower ourselves to that level. If I go see U2 I'll expect to see U2 and not a cover band.

Bloor West FC
03-19-2010, 05:25 PM
Will not support scabs!! And I will never support Mo!

Pachuco
03-19-2010, 07:22 PM
It's true isn't it. In my opinion, this is all about less talented players, not identity. If for example, a new GM was hired and overhauled most of TFC's roster and we started the season with Frei, JDG, DeRo and a bunch of new players via trades and signings, we would all gradually support them if they performed well on the pitch...

But that's not the same scenario that's going on here. In this case I support players of ALL teams in the MLS. I support the player's association.

If Mo went and overhauled the entire team I would still support this team. Because the new players would be playing under the player's association in which case I would feel they are trully representing the league.

Scab players don't represent the league or teams in any way.

LesH
03-19-2010, 07:50 PM
http://www.oleole.com/media/main/images/wallpapers/56300/keeley-hazell-footba_70346.jpg

hah! my scab players are better than yours :D


WOW! :drinking: :flare:

Go Blondie TFC!

LesH
03-19-2010, 07:54 PM
No, absolutely not – I will NEVER support scab labour in any way

alantang999
03-20-2010, 01:38 AM
Never cross a picket line...solidarity forever for labour

boozilla
03-20-2010, 01:46 AM
No. MLS would implode after 3 weeks.

Super
03-20-2010, 01:49 AM
No. MLS would implode after 3 weeks.

Sounds about right to me. No way this league would be able to finish a season with scab players. Forget about it!

http://johngrant.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/my-mob-photo.jpg

pdelgadinho
03-20-2010, 11:05 AM
Speaking about not caring about facts, this is a thread about the hypothetical use of scabs and whether or not people would support them.

The strikes issues are a totally different kettle of fish.

I really don't have an opinion on whether the owners or the players are right on the CBA negotiations. I have not followed that topic nearly as closely as I would like to form an opinion on it.

But I am certain I would not pay to watch replacement players. At least not full price.

I understand what your saying but I don't think it's as simple as that. There are lots of other issues that have an impact on if people would support replacements or not. You said yourself that you wouldn't watch replacements at full price. Would you at half price? What about if it was free?

For me, the strike issues (as well as price) have a direct influence on my decision to watch replacement players. If I felt strongly that the league was being greedy then what better way to show my support for the players than to NOT show up to watch replacements (if it came to that), as that would be the leagues way of trying to break the strike. On the flip side, if the players are being greedy then what better way to show them my displeasure, than to keep supporting the team by attending the games anyway.

Anyway, let's all hope there is good news today and this thread stays simply as a friendly debate that keeps us busy until the season begins.