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Yohan
12-18-2009, 10:27 AM
You knew we had to talk about him... haha. And I like being a bit of devil's advocate. And I have a lot of spare time right now to rant.

Stolen from Vitti cut thread


If Preki is willing to give Garcia a chance, I am too.

By all accounts, Preki is a master at getting players to play a role. Garcia might do well given proper direction.
We all know how well Adam Braz did at Montreal despite being one of TFC's "less skilled" players in 2007 when John Limniatiis taught him to play a role and do it well. We may see the same with Nick Garcia under Preki (Garcia, who despite his poor ability to read the game is more skilled than Braz).

This is what has been bugging me about Nick Garcia who pulled a Jekyl and Hyde. What turned him into a pretty good MLS defender into utter shite?

Nick Garcia came to Toronto with expectations that he was the answer to TFC's leaky defence. He came with a pretty good resume, which included 2000 MLS Cup Champion, 2004 US Open Cup (both with Kansas City), 6 USMNT caps and recently captain of of San Jose Earthquakes. He got a new contract after helping SJ to have 4th stingiest defence in 08 season, with 38 goals against.

Garcia was to be the leader in defence, organizing ramshambles backline, using his plenty of experience in MLS and a leader.

After few games, turns out that Garcia was slow as hell. Somewhere, his pace just left him. No matter how good his other attributes were, the more athletic MLS attackers keep exposing on one on one situations. Not to mention his 5'10" height and not so great strength, Garcia got bossed around by more physical and faster MLS players.
Slowly, he became the most mocked player in TFC squad. A leader cannot lead if he cannot lead by example. If he sucks at his job, his buddies aren't going to pay attention to him.

So exactly what happened to Nick Garcia who was rated as one of best defenders at the end of 08 season?

My hypothesis is that Nick Garcia was a good team defender, but never quite a good individual defender. His smaller nature required him to rely on his partners in defence to help him out, and that they do their job properly. Garcia did not rely on physical attributes to stop his opponents, but his brain, that is correctly reading the play to be in better position.

Evidences were there that we got the Nick Garcia of SJ and KC... minus the pace. There were games where TFC defence did look more organized with Garcia barking out instructions.

Then individual frailties of TFC defenders came to play. Jimmy B was also losing pace and keep getting exposed on left flank. Then there is Marvell Wynne who probably has one of worst defensive positioning sense and marking for a fullback. Adrian Serioux was a tad too aggressive. Only reliable partner was Nana Attakora, but he is a young lad still learning the game.
So there was Nick Garcia, trying to chase down fast MLS attackers (which he's not going to win many times), while trying to cover up his own goofs (because nobody is perfect). Almost like he's put into a no win situation.

So, what made Nick Garcia so effective in San Jose? It was remarkable that SJ, a new expansion team in 08, had only 38 goals against whole season, a respectable 4th stingiest defence in the entire league. SJ's suck in 08 season was not due to the defence, but rather shitty center midfield and lacking a reliable striker.
SJ's defence featured names like Eric Denton Ryan Cochrane, Jason Hernandez and Kelly Gray with Nick Garcia. A rather unremarkable bunch of names. Most of them were journeyman defenders. They did have an MLS all star in Joe Cannon, who at top of his game was one of the best keepers in MLS and benefit of veteran Brazillian defensive midfielder Francesco Lima for half a season.

Somehow, Frank Yallop got these bunch to play a very good defensive soccer. It was a collective team effort, because one broken link means that entire defensive structure will collapose.

TFC defence never had the consistency or unity of effort in defence. It's almost like bunch of individuals trying to their best on defence, but in the end, teamwork beats individual effort in defence most of the time.

In fact, in MLS, you'll rarely find superstar defenders who'll singlehandlely stop opposition attackers, like a Rio Ferdinand or a Carlos Puyol. Most teams have a collections of ok and decent defenders, through a good defensive coaching and game plan, forged into a collective unit that works well through teamwork and hard work.

Ironicaly though, that defensive set up is almost all gone. Lima went back to Italy. Ryan Cochrane traded to Houston. Garcia traded to TFC. Denton and Gray were released and are free agents. This is mostly due to horrible start SJ had in 09. Which begs the question. Was 08 season a fluke? For an entire season?

Adding in Nick Garcia, who is not a very good individual defender as a solution wasn't going to work so well for TFC
Then there was this distraction of Garcia with a newborn kid, away from his family. That might have had some effect as well.

By no means I don't think Nick Garcia will be a permanent solution to TFC's defensive problem. But in MLS, you have to make do with what you've got, and what you're stuck with. Garcia has a 200k per year contract, and it'll be hard to trade him. Releasing him might not be an option, if his contract is guaranteed, and releasing him will still affect the cap hit.

Nick Garcia will be 31 in Apr. Old, but not the end of the world for a defender. He has plenty of attributes and positives to offer.

However, in order to get the best out of Nick Garcia, two things have to happen.

1. TFC sign two defensive defenders. A left back and a CB or RB. Nana can be either CB or RB. Garcia cannot work in a backline that has no idea how to defend, esp from the flanks.

2. Garcia must work on his sprinting. Nobody expects Garcia to have Wynne's pace, but you must have at least adequate pace, esp in athletic MLS. 30 is a bit old, but if you work hard enough during the off season, I think Garcia can gain some of the lost pace. This is Garcia's biggest individual flaw, and even a mildly correcting this would up his game so much.

Like Jimmy B, I think Garcia has a lot to prove. He lost his place to Emmanuel Gomez, an 18 yr old kid. His stature as one of MLS's premier defenders, gone. If he has any pride as a professional athlete, I think he'd be out to prove himself that he is not a has been. And that he still needs a paycheck to feed his family.

Preki is a defence first manager. Everybody in the field will have his role and if you don't play your role, you'll get the boot. Nick Garcia is a good role player in defence, and I think he'll have the chance to do well under Preki's defensive system. I think Garcia deserves a second chance, to play in a system that'd be more suitable for his game under Preki. At least until first few games of next season to prove himself.

It's not the ideal solution, which mine would be to trade Garcia and pick up a pair of quality defenders, but since I don't see anything like that in the future, we must make do with what we have.

rocker
12-18-2009, 10:41 AM
I really wanna see what Preki can do with the whole team concept. Look at Tyrone Marshall with Seattle. I liked Marshall but I heard negative comments about him being a pylon too when he was with TFC. But Sigi surrounded him with good players and they played a system that downplayed his weaknesses. Maybe the same can be done with Garcia. Individuals have never been the solution on TFC... we always get pissed off at guys or hopeful when a new guy comes in... but I don't care anymore about that. I want to see Preki put together a team. A lot of guys on his Chivas were guys I know nothing about.. and probably wouldn't even herald on their arrival. But he made it all work.

Yohan
12-18-2009, 10:51 AM
I really wanna see what Preki can do with the whole team concept. Look at Tyrone Marshall with Seattle. I liked Marshall but I heard negative comments about him being a pylon too when he was with TFC. But Sigi surrounded him with good players and they played a system that downplayed his weaknesses. Maybe the same can be done with Garcia. Individuals have never been the solution on TFC... we always get pissed off at guys or hopeful when a new guy comes in... but I don't care anymore about that. I want to see Preki put together a team. A lot of guys on his Chivas were guys I know nothing about.. and probably wouldn't even herald on their arrival. But he made it all work.
this is also true. other than Bornstein who has a bit of rep, guys like Shavar Thomas, Carey Talley, Ante Jazic, Cuesta are really typical MLS defenders that Preki put together as team

TOBOR !
12-18-2009, 10:52 AM
I can't bring myself to read anything about Nick Garcia.

JonO
12-18-2009, 10:58 AM
Nick Garcia came to Toronto with expectations that he was the answer to TFC's leaky defence.
I don't think anyone expected this. Maybe hoped. If I recall, Garcia was tossed to us in a salary dump so that we could get Gerba...

JonO
12-18-2009, 10:59 AM
Look at Tyrone Marshall with Seattle.
Tyrone was good in the air and had well defined strengths as well as weaknesses... I don't he was that much better at Seattle than he was with us.

Stryker
12-18-2009, 11:08 AM
I'm sorry but I would play Attakora, Gomez and Serioux over Garcia everytime.
I have zero confidence in the man.

Brooker
12-18-2009, 11:08 AM
i didn't know Garcia made 200k.....

WOW.

Yohan
12-18-2009, 11:12 AM
i didn't know Garcia made 200k.....

WOW.
he didn't get 200k contract because he sucked all the time...

Beach_Red
12-18-2009, 11:15 AM
Don't they just have to sub him out after 70 minutes?

rocker
12-18-2009, 11:16 AM
Tyrone was good in the air and had well defined strengths as well as weaknesses... I don't he was that much better at Seattle than he was with us.

I guess it's subjective, but watching Seattle many times, I felt like he was protected by the system (and having better teammates) to the point where none of his weaknesses at TFC were revealed in Seattle. I liked Tyrone, but let's not forget the segment of this board that regularly criticized him as a pylon. In Seattle he was nothing of the sort. I think that's good coaching minimizing weaknesses. Perhaps Preki can do it with Garcia. Not that I'm a fan of Garcia... but I'm not gonna focus my hate on one guy. It's about the team concept now and I think (hope) Preki comes up with a system where we don't need to find a scapegoat each game because players with weaknesses are being allowed to be exposed.

Chevy
12-18-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm sorry but I would play Attakora, Gomez and Serioux over Garcia everytime.
I have zero confidence in the man.

+1. Why are we even discussing this?

TOBOR !
12-18-2009, 11:44 AM
^ boredom.

jloome
12-18-2009, 12:04 PM
We're discussing it because Yo's bored with the offseason.

He's lost too many steps. He's too slow. Yes, those were his positives: reading the game, tough in the tackle, marshalling the backline.

But now, every decision is a split second slow, every challenge. His backtracking is truly, truly horrible to watch.

The man should retire, period, end of.

jloome
12-18-2009, 12:05 PM
In fact, I'd add that in 30 years of watching football, he was without a doubt one of the worst defenders I've ever seen. Giving him another chance would be akin to giving away points without even playing the games.

Gixmo
12-18-2009, 12:19 PM
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_70/1152413275swhT67.jpg

Discuss...

I've never liked him, before and here... and I have my doubts about his 'chemistry' as well.

I guess we'll see, I'd love for him to prove me wrong.. but until he does, He's a ^^^^^

Hitcho
12-18-2009, 01:01 PM
Holy shit Yohan. No way am I even going to try and read all that, post something more reasonable in length next time mate! :D

As for Garcia, I cannot see the back of him quickly enough. The only place I want to see him is in the middle of another MLS team's defence next season, with De Ro running at him.

Garcia is old, slow, short, cannot jump, has lost whatever confidence his team mates had in him and is wdiely tipped to be a bad apple/Mo's Mole in the dressing room.

Whatever your lengthy OP may have said about his potential upsides, nothing can cure that list. He should already be gone by now.

TFC_Junky
12-18-2009, 01:04 PM
ya, sorry Yohan but Garcia has to go. Even if Preki builds a system for him to follow, every attacking forward and midfielder in the league know's he's a pylon. He has to go... period.

Shakes McQueen
12-18-2009, 01:11 PM
That own goal in... Chicago I think it was... will forever be burned into my brain. The one where he basically chested the ball, then watched it roll past Frei.

- Scott

Yohan
12-18-2009, 01:20 PM
That own goal in... Chicago I think it was... will forever be burned into my brain. The one where he basically chested the ball, then watched it roll past Frei.

- Scott
seeing that live at Toyota Park, I was like, qu'est-ce que fuck

Stryker
12-18-2009, 01:37 PM
That own goal in... Chicago I think it was... will forever be burned into my brain. The one where he basically chested the ball, then watched it roll past Frei.

- Scott
Mine is the one where he whiffed on the ball with his clearance attempt 10 yards out from the box.

Shway
12-18-2009, 01:43 PM
mine is......














GET RID OF HIM!:picard:

Shway
12-18-2009, 01:43 PM
i can honestly say that.........
if Nick Garcia is on this team

how fair was it to Marco Velez?
he atleast scored goals

cochrdoc
12-18-2009, 02:00 PM
Boys,
If our team has Brennen and Garcia in the line-up ,we had better score alot of goals.Our problem last year was our defence or lack of.We never got the CB that was talked about and Garcia was a sad back-up plan.I don`t think any coach can get him to win more balls in the air or not get undressed as bad as he was.How many goals were scored because of his poor defending.As for Brennan ,I can`t understand why we protected him.To many goals were scored from service from his side.I am surprised we let Fellingo go with out giving him more time.I hope the next players released are the 2 mentioned above andcan`t wait to see who is brought in.I am tired of hearing excuses

Marco2K
12-18-2009, 02:52 PM
I can't bring myself to read anything about Nick Garcia.


I AGREE 100%

Just let GARCIA WALK!! NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!

Marco2K
12-18-2009, 02:53 PM
You knew we had to talk about him... haha. And I like being a bit of devil's advocate. And I have a lot of spare time right now to rant.

Stolen from Vitti cut thread



This is what has been bugging me about Nick Garcia who pulled a Jekyl and Hyde. What turned him into a pretty good MLS defender into utter shite?

Nick Garcia came to Toronto with expectations that he was the answer to TFC's leaky defence. He came with a pretty good resume, which included 2000 MLS Cup Champion, 2004 US Open Cup (both with Kansas City), 6 USMNT caps and recently captain of of San Jose Earthquakes. He got a new contract after helping SJ to have 4th stingiest defence in 08 season, with 38 goals against.

Garcia was to be the leader in defence, organizing ramshambles backline, using his plenty of experience in MLS and a leader.

After few games, turns out that Garcia was slow as hell. Somewhere, his pace just left him. No matter how good his other attributes were, the more athletic MLS attackers keep exposing on one on one situations. Not to mention his 5'10" height and not so great strength, Garcia got bossed around by more physical and faster MLS players.
Slowly, he became the most mocked player in TFC squad. A leader cannot lead if he cannot lead by example. If he sucks at his job, his buddies aren't going to pay attention to him.

So exactly what happened to Nick Garcia who was rated as one of best defenders at the end of 08 season?

My hypothesis is that Nick Garcia was a good team defender, but never quite a good individual defender. His smaller nature required him to rely on his partners in defence to help him out, and that they do their job properly. Garcia did not rely on physical attributes to stop his opponents, but his brain, that is correctly reading the play to be in better position.

Evidences were there that we got the Nick Garcia of SJ and KC... minus the pace. There were games where TFC defence did look more organized with Garcia barking out instructions.

Then individual frailties of TFC defenders came to play. Jimmy B was also losing pace and keep getting exposed on left flank. Then there is Marvell Wynne who probably has one of worst defensive positioning sense and marking for a fullback. Adrian Serioux was a tad too aggressive. Only reliable partner was Nana Attakora, but he is a young lad still learning the game.
So there was Nick Garcia, trying to chase down fast MLS attackers (which he's not going to win many times), while trying to cover up his own goofs (because nobody is perfect). Almost like he's put into a no win situation.

So, what made Nick Garcia so effective in San Jose? It was remarkable that SJ, a new expansion team in 08, had only 38 goals against whole season, a respectable 4th stingiest defence in the entire league. SJ's suck in 08 season was not due to the defence, but rather shitty center midfield and lacking a reliable striker.
SJ's defence featured names like Eric Denton Ryan Cochrane, Jason Hernandez and Kelly Gray with Nick Garcia. A rather unremarkable bunch of names. Most of them were journeyman defenders. They did have an MLS all star in Joe Cannon, who at top of his game was one of the best keepers in MLS and benefit of veteran Brazillian defensive midfielder Francesco Lima for half a season.

Somehow, Frank Yallop got these bunch to play a very good defensive soccer. It was a collective team effort, because one broken link means that entire defensive structure will collapose.

TFC defence never had the consistency or unity of effort in defence. It's almost like bunch of individuals trying to their best on defence, but in the end, teamwork beats individual effort in defence most of the time.

In fact, in MLS, you'll rarely find superstar defenders who'll singlehandlely stop opposition attackers, like a Rio Ferdinand or a Carlos Puyol. Most teams have a collections of ok and decent defenders, through a good defensive coaching and game plan, forged into a collective unit that works well through teamwork and hard work.

Ironicaly though, that defensive set up is almost all gone. Lima went back to Italy. Ryan Cochrane traded to Houston. Garcia traded to TFC. Denton and Gray were released and are free agents. This is mostly due to horrible start SJ had in 09. Which begs the question. Was 08 season a fluke? For an entire season?

Adding in Nick Garcia, who is not a very good individual defender as a solution wasn't going to work so well for TFC
Then there was this distraction of Garcia with a newborn kid, away from his family. That might have had some effect as well.

By no means I don't think Nick Garcia will be a permanent solution to TFC's defensive problem. But in MLS, you have to make do with what you've got, and what you're stuck with. Garcia has a 200k per year contract, and it'll be hard to trade him. Releasing him might not be an option, if his contract is guaranteed, and releasing him will still affect the cap hit.

Nick Garcia will be 31 in Apr. Old, but not the end of the world for a defender. He has plenty of attributes and positives to offer.

However, in order to get the best out of Nick Garcia, two things have to happen.

1. TFC sign two defensive defenders. A left back and a CB or RB. Nana can be either CB or RB. Garcia cannot work in a backline that has no idea how to defend, esp from the flanks.

2. Garcia must work on his sprinting. Nobody expects Garcia to have Wynne's pace, but you must have at least adequate pace, esp in athletic MLS. 30 is a bit old, but if you work hard enough during the off season, I think Garcia can gain some of the lost pace. This is Garcia's biggest individual flaw, and even a mildly correcting this would up his game so much.

Like Jimmy B, I think Garcia has a lot to prove. He lost his place to Emmanuel Gomez, an 18 yr old kid. His stature as one of MLS's premier defenders, gone. If he has any pride as a professional athlete, I think he'd be out to prove himself that he is not a has been. And that he still needs a paycheck to feed his family.

Preki is a defence first manager. Everybody in the field will have his role and if you don't play your role, you'll get the boot. Nick Garcia is a good role player in defence, and I think he'll have the chance to do well under Preki's defensive system. I think Garcia deserves a second chance, to play in a system that'd be more suitable for his game under Preki. At least until first few games of next season to prove himself.

It's not the ideal solution, which mine would be to trade Garcia and pick up a pair of quality defenders, but since I don't see anything like that in the future, we must make do with what we have.


I must say i did not read past the 1st sentance. Dude you need to find a gf or some friends. there is no reason for this much stuff to be written about GARCIA!!

Belfast_Boy
12-18-2009, 02:57 PM
Nick don't go away mad, just go away.

the only addition that could help Garcia out would be........

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/Groo/BrownBrickWall_tileable.jpg

Yohan
12-18-2009, 03:08 PM
I must say i did not read past the 1st sentance. Dude you need to find a gf or some friends. there is no reason for this much stuff to be written about GARCIA!!
not much for having a quality convo, are ya?

jloome
12-18-2009, 04:47 PM
not much for having a quality convo, are ya?

His suggestion? Essentially boils down to find a group of people with whom you feel comfortable talking about inane crap, like how much you drank last weekend. That's why people flock to familiar groups — the comfort of relative anonymity and of not having to think. Tribalism! The solution to everything!

Given that, I love the fact that a guy who's nearly always right on this shit is spectacularly wrong on this one. Shows we're all human.

Yohan
12-18-2009, 04:58 PM
His suggestion? Essentially boils down to find a group of people with whom you feel comfortable talking about inane crap, like how much you drank last weekend. That's why people flock to familiar groups — the comfort of relative anonymity and of not having to think. Tribalism! The solution to everything!

Given that, I love the fact that a guy who's nearly always right on this shit is spectacularly wrong on this one. Shows we're all human.
if you think that I'm wrong, that's fine.

my OP was an attempt at generating some discussion on a player which has critical impact on TFC, whether he sucks or not. simply saying Nick Garcia sucks, end of discussion, is not much of a convo

I can only imagine how much flak I'll get if I write something about Chad Barrett

ah fuck it. I'll go back to playing my xbox now

trane
12-18-2009, 05:17 PM
I agree with Jloome previous assessment, he was not without quality, read the game well, could takle. However, he made some critical mistakes, trying [I think] to compensate for critical inadequecies, principaly lack of size[ both height and bulk] , strengh and speed, and leaping ability. I gave up on him, I think it was against Colorado when he failed to put the body on Conor Casey, and just stayed in space, letting Casey walts into the 6 yard box and score. [ Frei also has some blame, in that he could have come out and cought the cross, as well as whoever was marking the crosser, who clearly gave then too much space]However, a decent physical CB puts his body on Casey, the moment he get near the 18 yard box, to keep him from waltzing in, and then jumps side to side with Connor to get to the ball and/or get in the way of the header. Garcia did neither, I suspect because he knew he was not physical incapable to do either, and thus eneded up doing nothing, perhaps hoping for a poor cross.

Yohan
12-18-2009, 05:26 PM
again, I'm not a Nick Garcia fan. but just another thought

Someone mentioned Tyrone Marshall and how he fared pretty well in Seattle, under a proper defensive system and playing with defenders who can actually defend

how about LAG? you have Gregg Berhalter, who is taller and more physical defender than Nick Garcia, but just as slow. but Berhalter played with Dunivant who is a very solid defensive fullback. then Berhalter got stuck with AJ de la Garza and Omar Gonzalez. promising rookies, but still, just rookies.
under Bruce Arena, and a proper defensive setup, LAG turned a new tail and played a solid defensive game, a complete turnaround from the 08 season
Berhalter actually has a better pedigree than Nick Garcia, having played in Bundesliga and 43 USMNT caps. but put Berhalter in Garcia's place, he'd get torched with Jimmy B and Wynne as defensive partners

just a food for thought

TFCRegina
12-19-2009, 01:11 AM
Somebody should rename this the Nick Garcia "Appreciation" Thread. :P

DichioTFC
12-19-2009, 03:08 AM
again, I'm not a Nick Garcia fan. but just another thought

i like and appreciate the thought, and in times of optimism i've thought similar things (we could make this Garcia deal work, he's got experience, could be a leader), but other than trading him to another team (Union?) for a future pick, there isnt really much we should expect from him.

Also, I'm pretty sure he was the weak link in the locker room that everyone was talking about after the final game of the season. I remember a game at home where either Frei or Edwards was going to scoop up a ball to play it up-field (no pressure from the other team) and Garcia boots it near the corner flag for ABSOLUTELY no reason other than a lack of awareness. The keeper yelled at Garcia in vain and the Boys didn't look surprised at all.

if he does stay on the team, if we are stuck with him, lets hope he can prove some usefulness, develop a better rapport with his defencive mates and bring a team defence structure to our team. But if he cant, Preki sure as hell better know what to do.

Auzzy
12-19-2009, 03:25 AM
I also remember a couple of times in games where Garcia almost seemed to get in fights with teammates. Like one of the last games at BMO, where he was yelling at Edwards not to take a free kick outside the box. (As far as I can remember, Garcia then took the kick himself, and screwed it up.) I think Garcia wants/was told to play a "leadership" role in defense, but he doesn't have the physical skills to back that up (at least, not any more). Can you imagine Serioux taking orders from Garcia for example, or some of our DMs?

onemanbarmyarmy
12-19-2009, 07:36 AM
2. Garcia must work on his sprinting. Nobody expects Garcia to have Wynne's pace, but you must have at least adequate pace, esp in athletic MLS. 30 is a bit old, but if you work hard enough during the off season, I think Garcia can gain some of the lost pace. This is Garcia's biggest individual flaw, and even a mildly correcting this would up his game so much.



This isn't as easy as it seems. Sprinting requires mostly "Fast-Twitch" muscle and that decreases exponentially as you age. He can just loose weight and become lighter therefore gain a bit of speed but true "quickness" or "sprinting" is based on biology and can't be replaced after a certain point in your life.

onemanbarmyarmy
12-19-2009, 07:39 AM
All the speed in the world won't help someone who chests the ball past his own keeper for an own goal. That is also biological. It occurs when one has too many chromosome's.

Shakes McQueen
12-19-2009, 07:54 AM
if you think that I'm wrong, that's fine.

my OP was an attempt at generating some discussion on a player which has critical impact on TFC, whether he sucks or not. simply saying Nick Garcia sucks, end of discussion, is not much of a convo

I can only imagine how much flak I'll get if I write something about Chad Barrett

ah fuck it. I'll go back to playing my xbox now

If Garcia get's another kick at the can with this team, it will be because we couldn't unload his terrible contract, and no other reason.

Anecdotal evidence points to him being one of the problems in the locker room, and if that's the case, that's enough to warrant getting rid of him for me.

And that's before you even look at his woeful lack of pace, and poor decision-making.

He just isn't good enough - I'd like to be all sunny and "bright-side" about all of our bad and mediocre players, but I suspect it's that attitude that has allowed this team to wallow in mediocrity. The only underperformer I give any credit to is Barrett, and that's because he contributes a handful of quality performances every season. Garcia had one good game that I can remember, and a bunch more where he was pretty much directly responsible for conceding goals. Guys like that need to go.

- Scott

ensco
12-19-2009, 08:43 AM
We need a separate thread on how quickly most football players in their early 30s become completely useless. It's not like most other sports where the decline is more gradual.

It's especially acute for defenders. Abel Xavier went from EPL regular to utter MLS shite in a year. Lots of chatter that it's happening to Rio Ferndinand now btw.

Add to that that Garcia is 5'9"".... he is the shortest center back in world football history, he can't fall back on strength and height a la Tyrone.

Whatever Garcia once was is irrelevant. Only reason he'll be here is if Mo can't shed the contract. Which I'm pretty certain is the case.

Yozzarian
12-20-2009, 04:25 PM
I think the turning point for Garcia this season was when he collapsed while running down a loose ball against Chad Barrett. It was around that point that the San Jose fans really started to question him. From what I remember of the game broadcast, it was a groin injury that required him to be carried off the field. I am not sure he ever fully healed from that one, nor am I sure if he ever will.

If it is a case of him not being fit, I think he might play better next season. Better – but still not good enough to warrant a spot on the roster.

Torcida
12-20-2009, 04:33 PM
We need a separate thread on how quickly most football players in their early 30s become completely useless. It's not like most other sports where the decline is more gradual.

It's especially acute for defenders. Abel Xavier went from EPL regular to utter MLS shite in a year. Lots of chatter that it's happening to Rio Ferndinand now btw.

Add to that that Garcia is 5'9"".... he is the shortest center back in world football history, he can't fall back on strength and height a la Tyrone.

Whatever Garcia once was is irrelevant. Only reason he'll be here is if Mo can't shed the contract. Which I'm pretty certain is the case.
Franco Baresi was 5'9"....

hodgkiss
12-20-2009, 08:31 PM
yohan, it's nice to see that u have finally realized that nick garcia is crap. some of your earlier posts this season defending him made me question your ability to see things clearly.

just for fun, i'm going to try to dig some of it up so you can see just how silly you sounded.

hodgkiss
12-20-2009, 09:02 PM
this was one of the first games that nick garicia played. it was a loss to the columbus crew july 25th. i made some comments here very early in his career with tfc and some of your comments yohan were quite funny...

07-25-2009, 09:37 PM
hodgkiss
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: woodbridge

i'm sorry but nick garcia is a bag of crap!

he is slow, ha can not mark anyone, he gets caught out of position, puts the ball back to the keeper every chance he gets and puts all kinds of pressure on them, he gets stupid cards, becomes aggressive for no reason, the list goes on and on.

having anyone two of the three (wynne, garcia and velez) on at the same time is a huge mistake!

as it stands right now, we need serioux, brennan and nana in every single game because we don't have anyone else that is reliable. gomez ( in the couple of time that i have seen him) is better than wynne garcia and velez.

i think we are good with mids and forwards but we still lack depth at the back. we absolutely have to make moves NOW if we want any more hardware.

we had 3 minutes of extra time and all they had to do is keep the ball out of the net. that was the worst marking ever! garcia had the man and backed off putting pressure on wynne to come back quickly. it was the wrong choice and he does this consistently.

08-07-2009, 10:51 PM
hodgkiss
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: woodbridge

garcia is a terrible defender. yes he is vocal and he has made some smart plays but those things are expected of all defenders. the truth is, he can't mark a man, is constantly beaten to balls and has a very poor distribution. what good is he? not very much. gomez has already shown much more promise than garcia and he is 18. we need a much better (no nonsense) defender in eth middle and we need nana back. we actually need 3 good defenders cuz jimmy is getting slower too and velez can't do much. the only defenders i am happy with are serioux (who still makes mistakes but is better than most) nana and gomez.

08-08-2009, 05:46 PM
Yohan
RPB Member



Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kitchener

The thing with MLS defenders is that you'll rarely find who is without some sort of fault.

If Garcia had a bit of speed so that he doesn't get exposed when Wynne or Brennan screws up and he gets caught out of position, or he gets paired up with a speedy CB, I think Garcia would be a better fit. So, a decent defensive team, Garcia would be good, because his leadership, positioning and overall football IQ is pretty good. Put him in a team with crappy defence like TFC, and Garcia's weakness gets over exposed.

Meh. When I said get a DP CB or trade for top MLS defenders like Chad Marshall at all cost, I'm quite serious.

I want Tebily back

08-08-2009, 09:07 PM
Yohan
RPB Member



Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kitchener

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy011777
Garcia is a liability in the back... He's a total hack who gives up way too many stupid fouls. Get rid of him, that's my 2 cents.
is he committing fouls because he's a no good piece of shit, or is he committing fouls because his fellow defenders hung him out to dry?

Brennan and Wynne aren't exactly paragon of defensive virtues.

Remember. Garcia does have 6 USMNT caps, an MLS Cup and an US Open Cup ring.

I think Garcia does commit some stupid fouls, but that's a pandemic among TFC defenders

08-10-2009, 09:29 PM
hodgkiss
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: woodbridge

can someone please run this pole at the end of the season as well? because i have a feeling that most of those who support him now will change their mind when he screws up some more, and some more, and some more...

08-31-2009, 05:13 PM
Yohan
RPB Member



Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kitchener

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlofletch
yeah, hopefully Serioux will slip back into the starting line up. The defence looked fairly solid against Seattle, and it'd be a bit harsh on garcia, who looked good when surrounded by good defenders instead of having to deal with Wynne's messes, but Serioux's got to get his place back.

if we're going 4 at the back I'd go attakora, serioux, gomez, brennan. and sanyang as the dm, that's a very solid defensive unit, that has the pace to get back and clear up mistakes if they happen.

or go with a similar line up to the d.c. game, attakora serioux and gomex, with brennan and Cronin as wing backs and sanyang at dm.
problem is, not a defensive organizer in your back 4, which garcia is.

08-31-2009, 07:22 PM
hodgkiss
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: woodbridge

garcia is a defensive disaster waiting to happen. i have noticed recently that he has been shying away from touching the ball and the reason for that is because he makes so many glaring mistakes. so, he might as well stay away from danger and let someone else more responsible do the dirty work.


lololo

ensco
12-20-2009, 09:04 PM
Franco Baresi was 5'9"....

Baresi was a sweeper, not a CB.

I'm sure you'll find exceptions, it wouldn't change my general point. Height matters so much at CB that it's extremely rare to find them under 1.80 m.

Yohan
12-20-2009, 09:11 PM
congrats dude. you proved that i am indeed human. lol

i had every reason to believe that Nick Garcia was a good defender, based upon his previous years in MLS. turns out that he sucked for TFC

therefore...? I'm stupid! lol

Dunkers
12-21-2009, 03:28 AM
I must say i did not read past the 1st sentance. Dude you need to find a gf or some friends. there is no reason for this much stuff to be written about GARCIA!!


Seriouly...if you cant read 3 min of text, spare the rest of us your bullshit. Personal attacks on the internet weak

Oldtimer
12-21-2009, 07:52 AM
We still haven't seen what Garcia will be like with Preki in charge.

I'd say give him a chance. Preki has a "defense first" mentality, so it's hard for me to believe that he will keep him on if he can't pull his weight, once he is given proper coaching. We've only seen Garcia under Cummins, so far.

TFC_Junky
12-21-2009, 08:27 AM
^ my problem with this is, in a defense first mentality, do you want a good chunk of the resposibility to fall to Garcia? I'd rather see a taller, stronger, quicker CB (Gomez, Attakora or new pick up) be given the responsibility and see how they handle it. Garcia may have been able to handle this previously in his career but I don't think it would be a wise decision now.

zooko62000
12-21-2009, 10:16 AM
Why have we not released Garcia yet. He is slow, has no sense of positioning, and he is slow. He is a liability in the back line and we need to get rid of him.

With Preki being a defensive genious and all you think they would realize this guy is not worth what we are paying him($190,000).

With this money and the money we got from releasing Guevera, Fellinga, and Vitti near $600,000, A combined $790,000. ($190,000+$600,000=$790,000)

I think with all of this money Mo can't f#@^ up on getting a good centre back and striker but you never know what will happen.
:scarf:

Hitcho
12-21-2009, 10:19 AM
There must be a reason. Maybe he has a guaranteed contract and can't just be released. Maybe Mo is waiting to use him as trade bait on the basis that a US team might want his experience (Philly?). Maybe *shudder* Preki thinks he's better than he showed last season for us and is planning on keeping him.

But yeah, I agree and would like to see him gone asap. However, if Mo can get something in return for him then I don't mins waiting until February to see him gone!

ag futbol
12-21-2009, 10:39 AM
Rumour had it he was on guaranteed money ...

Joe Kool
12-21-2009, 10:44 AM
I won't get worried until Charleston tourney comes around. If he is still on the starting lineup at that time then I will start to worry.

hodgkiss
12-21-2009, 10:47 AM
well honestly, i would rather see him on the bench collecting his money and maybe with another couple of good defenders we can win some more games this year.

i never understood the attitude that because we are paying more money for certain players that they should be starting or featuring. in the end, we wnat to win games. so even having guys in there that make minimal salary that can win us games would make much more sense to me. i.e. nana attakora.

anyway, let's hope this year will bring us something special.

TOBOR !
12-21-2009, 11:14 AM
Why are we even talking about him ? He's not worth the space this thread will take up on teh internets.

TFCRegina
12-21-2009, 11:34 AM
They may be trying to negotiate his salary downward in order to keep him as a bit player.

Alternatively, he's one of the Players' Union's biggest negotiators. Letting him go in the midst of negotiations would incur a lawsuit for sure...

And i know that because my uncle won one back in the day for that exact reason.

Auzzy
12-21-2009, 11:42 AM
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=19166

jloome
12-21-2009, 12:48 PM
^ my problem with this is, in a defense first mentality, do you want a good chunk of the resposibility to fall to Garcia? I'd rather see a taller, stronger, quicker CB (Gomez, Attakora or new pick up) be given the responsibility and see how they handle it. Garcia may have been able to handle this previously in his career but I don't think it would be a wise decision now.

The other important point is that as fans we have to realize that not every defence is as lock-solid as a top premiership team, no matter who we bring in or start.

Gomez looks to be the real deal, but with flights of either overconfidence or distracted behaviour. But he's only 19 and you've got to figure that, like Nana, he'd be better with another year of seasoning.

I don't personally think Serioux is a patient enough defender and he makes bad decisions as well.

We need a centre back that's experienced, loud, and in charge. Who knows, maybe Eddie Robinson's knee has healed.

trane
12-21-2009, 01:01 PM
Franco Baresi was 5'9"....

Cannavaro is the same height, Payul is not much taller. But they are stronger and WELL are better then Garcia is like every way.


I could live with a back 3 of Canna-Baresi-Payul. Somehow I think that it would work in the MLS.

My problem with Garcia, physicaly is not only that he is short, but he is not strong and slow footed. The overall combo is well not great for a CB.

ag futbol
12-21-2009, 01:26 PM
The other thing we need badly out of a CB is someone who is good on the ball. Nothing fancy, just the ability to hold the ball enough to make quick and accurate passes out of the back.

Attakora said himself he has to improve in this area. I think the other CB who's back there should excel in this regard. Basically we're looking for the modern defender to go with the traditional one. That's not to say he doesn't have to pull his defensive weight (definately has to).

We want someone who can work out of the back kind of like Jakovic does for United.

TOBOR !
12-21-2009, 02:43 PM
Hodgkiss : TLDR

maninb
12-21-2009, 03:45 PM
My worst/favorite Garcia moment was I believe during the runup to the tying SJ goal in the costly 1-1 draw at home....As Serioux tried to lead the backline out to catch 2 or 3 SJ players offside..Garcia was backpedalling towards his own goal...which directly led up to the tying goal....You could see Serioux's head almost EXPLODE when he realized what Garcia had done...

Hitcho
12-21-2009, 04:34 PM
We need a separate thread on how quickly most football players in their early 30s become completely useless. It's not like most other sports where the decline is more gradual.

It's especially acute for defenders. Abel Xavier went from EPL regular to utter MLS shite in a year. Lots of chatter that it's happening to Rio Ferndinand now btw.

Add to that that Garcia is 5'9"".... he is the shortest center back in world football history, he can't fall back on strength and height a la Tyrone.

Whatever Garcia once was is irrelevant. Only reason he'll be here is if Mo can't shed the contract. Which I'm pretty certain is the case.

This just isn't true. CB is generally considered one of the areas where you can play no for linger, especially if your game wasn't built on pace. History is littered with good examples of this.

It's not true to say that all CBs can play on the age of 35 or later, but what I would say is that CB is a position where the "decline past 30" rule is broken more times than in other positions, not the other way around.

Hitcho
12-21-2009, 04:37 PM
They may be trying to negotiate his salary downward in order to keep him as a bit player.

Alternatively, he's one of the Players' Union's biggest negotiators. Letting him go in the midst of negotiations would incur a lawsuit for sure...

And i know that because my uncle won one back in the day for that exact reason.

Oh man that would suck - to be stuck with Garcia because of bullshit internal league politics... :facepalm:

Parkdale
12-21-2009, 04:39 PM
merged thread.


guys - make sure to look for a specific topic before making a new thread.

Nuvinho
12-21-2009, 11:22 PM
I think the turning point for Garcia this season was when he collapsed while running down a loose ball against Chad Barrett. It was around that point that the San Jose fans really started to question him. From what I remember of the game broadcast, it was a groin injury that required him to be carried off the field. I am not sure he ever fully healed from that one, nor am I sure if he ever will.

If it is a case of him not being fit, I think he might play better next season. Better – but still not good enough to warrant a spot on the roster.


You are talking about the wrong player.....the player who blew a wheel was Pitcholian (sp?) I think

james
12-22-2009, 01:14 AM
Garcia is the worst player TFC has ever had....i find it inpossible to believe Preki could actually train him enough to bring him to even the level of an average defender.

Yohan
12-22-2009, 01:24 AM
Garcia is the worst player TFC has ever had....i find it inpossible to believe Preki could actually train him enough to bring him to even the level of an average defender.
MLS must be really bad if Garcia played in it for 10 years

and Preki played with Garcia for 5 seasons together, so obviously Preki knows nothing about Garcia

trane
12-22-2009, 11:03 AM
^ I hate these over the top statements (Garcia is the worst player TFC has eve had) realy? I mean I am critical, and I think he has probably outlived his use to us, but worst players TFC has ever had?

However, say that the general skill level of MLS defenders is very poor. I know that jloome, yohan that now the league better then me can give me names of some of the better ones, however I have been very dissapointed with the defenders. I have been more impressed with USL defenders, or at least USL defensive play. [ at least the sides that I have seen, Montreal, Vancouver and Puerto Rico]

TOBOR !
12-22-2009, 12:13 PM
Garcia is the worst player TFC has ever had....i find it inpossible to believe Preki could actually train him enough to bring him to even the level of an average defender.

just popping in to say Marcam Brazda says 'Hi'.

jloome
12-22-2009, 01:15 PM
My take on why Nick Garcia is still here:

http://www.rednationonline.ca/MLS_CBA_What%27s_at_Stake_dec_22_09_column.shtml

GhostKiller
12-22-2009, 01:21 PM
^ I hate these over the top statements (Garcia is the worst player TFC has eve had) realy? I mean I am critical, and I think he has probably outlived his use to us, but worst players TFC has ever had?]

I don't think thats an over the top statement. From his first game in Montreal he was giving up goals. I don't like to get down and talk shit about TFC players, but fuck Nick Garcia and his couch.

james
12-22-2009, 07:49 PM
hey i have almost never bad mouthed players. Even when everyone bad mouthed Barrett and cunningham i always said on the plus side they get a shit load of chances, more then anyone, difference being they couldnt finnish while other players do.

But yes i think Garcia is the worst player we have ever had because i have never seen anyone give away so many costly goals for TFC as Garcia has. Week after week i saw him in the wrong position of the field, players much faster then him running around him easily and him not coverring his man on such plays as corner kicks.

james
12-22-2009, 07:54 PM
MLS must be really bad if Garcia played in it for 10 years

and Preki played with Garcia for 5 seasons together, so obviously Preki knows nothing about Garcia

hey im not saying he was bad 5 years ago. Im saying this year he was BAD. And anyone who was watching him this year come on guys... you must of seen players just walking around him easily. you cant have players like that on your team if you wanna win. I was just amazed how many opportunities they gave him, week after week he still got to play even after giving goals away week after week.

Yohan
12-22-2009, 08:20 PM
hey im not saying he was bad 5 years ago. Im saying this year he was BAD. And anyone who was watching him this year come on guys... you must of seen players just walking around him easily. you cant have players like that on your team if you wanna win. I was just amazed how many opportunities they gave him, week after week he still got to play even after giving goals away week after week.
i agree with you... garcia was shit for TFC last season

but... who am I to second guess what Preki wants to do with Garcia, considering he has way more info on Garcia than any of us do...

james
12-22-2009, 08:37 PM
i agree with you... garcia was shit for TFC last season

but... who am I to second guess what Preki wants to do with Garcia, considering he has way more info on Garcia than any of us do...

ya maybe Preki knows some way to inprove him, if Preki can then wow Preki is an amazing Coach. Im just finding it hard to have any faith in Garcia. It was painful to watch him play this whole year.

romburgundy
12-23-2009, 01:38 PM
I have it on very good authority that Nick Garcia has played the role kindly put as an official opposition party in the Dressing room. Quite frankly leading to the Division of the team and Morale near the end of the season last year. Can't say who but it came straight up from one of the players.

Hitcho
12-23-2009, 02:22 PM
^ Fuck, I was hoping that wasn't true although somehow I had a feeling it was.

We've got to get rid of this shit bag. I'd rather pay his contract and let him rot on gardening leave than have him in the dressing room again this season.

Section 117
12-23-2009, 04:19 PM
I have it on very good authority that Nick Garcia has played the role kindly put as an official opposition party in the Dressing room. Quite frankly leading to the Division of the team and Morale near the end of the season last year. Can't say who but it came straight up from one of the players.

I have heard this from several different sources as well from within the team. It is time that this douche is shown the door he is as useless as as going to a gun fight with a sling shot

FluSH
12-23-2009, 04:22 PM
If he ever leaves to another team... man is he going to get heckled by us... we'll make him cry home and away muhahahahahaha