Argos unlikely to play at BMO Field in 2014

[Boris]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-unlikely-to-play-at-bmo-field/article1401891/



It is highly unlikely likely the Toronto Argonauts will be playing home games next season at BMO Field, the 20,000-seat home of Major League Soccer's Toronto FC.

CFL sources say the idea of a potential Argos move to BMO Field was discussed during last week's management council meetings in Las Vegas, where team presidents and GM's met to go over league business. While no formal vote was taken, sources say there was a “strong consensus” around the table not to allow the Argos to play their games at a facility where CFL field dimensions would have to be altered.

[Gixmo]

Positive news for the grass, I felt it's pain..

[Oblio2]

Good. They can Fuck right off!

[Stryker]

thank gawd

[Whoop]

But what about 2011?

I have the sinking feeling that this will continue plague BMO for as long as the Argos exist.

[Gixmo]

But what about 2011?

I have the sinking feeling that this will continue plague BMO for as long as the Argos exist.

... Exist.. 2011... that's another cup of steaming tea...

[Cashcleaner]

I just wonder how this is all gonna end up down the line. Will the city just give in to their demands and build them a new stadium, or is the lack of their own controlled venue going to spark a move out of the city altogether? Personally, I think club won't be in Toronto for long. That's saying something, as I was a HUGE Argonauts fan before TFC told over my life.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

But what about 2011?

I have the sinking feeling that this will continue plague BMO for as long as the Argos exist.

Perhaps 2010 has been ruled out because no structural modifications to BMO Field can be made in time for the upcoming season. I'm hoping that as long as the field and locker room dimensions at BMO remain soccer-sized, the CFL executives will look down on any plan for the Argos to play there.

[Whoop]

That's what I mean.

Just because they won't be able to play at BMO in 2010, it doesn't mean that this issue is dead.

[Wagner]

I just wonder how this is all gonna end up down the line. Will the city just give in to their demands and build them a new stadium, or is the lack of their own controlled venue going to spark a move out of the city altogether? Personally, I think club won't be in Toronto for long. That's saying something, as I was a HUGE Argonauts fan before TFC told over my life.

I agree with Cashzilla.
I was pretty into the argos before TFC.
I woudn't be surprised if the Argos played in Mississauga or Barrie or Oshawa.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I dont think they were ever going to play in 2010 as for 2011 it means the argos will have to pay to modify the field and hte question then is can they afford it?
I dont think its a concern but it should always be in the back of our minds

[Shakes McQueen]

2010 was always out of the question for the Argos. Their President, Bob Nicholson, said as much in an open end-of-season letter to their season ticket holders. Season tickets have been sold for the Rogers Centre already.

It's 2011 we need to be potentially worried about.

- Scott

[AL-MO]

If Brailey takes over the Argos, I wonder if a possible move from the Dome is more or less likely.

[Shakes McQueen]

If Brailey takes over the Argos, I wonder if a possible move from the Dome is more or less likely.

I'm guessing it would be less likely. My guess is he either keeps them at the Dome, or maybe begins work to try and get them their own stadium.

BMO Field is not a long-term solution - the money required to renovate BMO Field could pay for more than half of a new stadium for themselves. Not to mention the locker rooms aren't a proper size for CFL football.

So if Brailey got the team, I expect him to go in a new direction.

To be honest, I'm still not convinced this sabre-rattling about moving to BMO is anything more than a smoke-screen to continue getting a good deal from Rogers Centre.

Paul Beeston is now essentially running the Dome, and is expected to end the Argos' current free ride there.

- Scott

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I'm guessing it would be less likely. My guess is he either keeps them at the Dome, or maybe begins work to try and get them their own stadium.

BMO Field is not a long-term solution - the money required to renovate BMO Field could pay for more than half of a new stadium for themselves. Not to mention the locker rooms aren't a proper size for CFL football.

So if Brailey got the team, I expect him to go in a new direction.

To be honest, I'm still not convinced this sabre-rattling about moving to BMO is anything more than a smoke-screen to continue getting a good deal from Rogers Centre.

Paul Beeston is now essentially running the Dome, and is expected to end the Argos' current free ride there.

- Scott

This seems quite logical. A figure of $30 million, for example, would be a huge amount of money for a team to invest in a stadium, considering that the Argos would be a second-tier tenant to TFC. If the Argos pursued their own stadium, they would enjoy all of the benefits of being the prime sports team in such a facility.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

As stated above 2010 was always unlikely but it's a good hear that there's strong opposition within the CFL owners against playing on a non-regulation field.

[Shakes McQueen]

As stated above 2010 was always unlikely but it's a good hear that there's strong opposition within the CFL owners against playing on a non-regulation field.

I'm gladdened to see this too. I'm still worried Cohon might compromise, because of the superior atmosphere a place like BMO Field would provide (due to there being no empty upper bowl).

But again, this would be no long-term solution. They'd be tenants in someone else's building again, paying actual rent this time, and not sharing in any of the revenue MLSE gets from things like parking and concessions, due to running the place for the city.

And even if they make the place bigger, the locker rooms will still be undersized for bigger CFL roster and equipment needs. The stadium will also still contain TFC branding all over the lace, the stands will still contain half of the TFC logo, and the seats will still be red.

It makes sense from a strict gameday atmosphere perspective, but if you think about it for more than five seconds, it all starts to make less sense.

- Scott

[Ossington Mental Youth]

More hurrahs
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/739356--cfl-report-says-bmo-field-not-suitable-home-for-argos

[sarsippius]

More hurrahs
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/739356--cfl-report-says-bmo-field-not-suitable-home-for-argos

Thanks for posting - I'm keeping my eyes peeled to see what this Report says.

Having this issue settled and having TFC and Soccer being the only tenant / sport that is played at BMO would make my Christmas.

I am hopeful this Report puts a huge kybosh on the whole idea for good. I know that's not likely (I do agree 2011 is still a threat), but the economics don't make sense for conversion.

[denime]

It's possible the Argos could move to BMO for the 2011 season, but that would require an estimated $15 million to reconfigure the stadium for football.
No way they will invest more than salaries into Argos anytime soon.


In addition, the report says that BMO dressing rooms designed for relatively small soccer teams are totally inadequate for football teams that carry 42 players plus coaches.:D

Never thought about dressing rooms being to small,nice.

[Fort York Redcoat]

So we can put down the pitchforks for a year? Good.

[Batman]

Here's a new twist.
Move the Argos to University stadium in KW. Expend the stadium from 7k to 20k. (surely Balsillie or someone could finance this)

I bet the KW area would band behind a team like Hamilton or Regina does.

[ensco]

Kudos to MLSE here. They are terrific at the behind-the-scenes elements of these public-private skirmishes.

[FluSH]

What were Cynamon and Sokolowski thinking?.... really:



In addition, the report says that BMO dressing rooms designed for relatively small soccer teams are totally inadequate for football teams that carry 42 players plus coaches


42 CFL players with their crap load of gear in a soccer locker room??? You have to be kidding me...

They have to be delusional...

[FluSH]

It's possible the Argos could move to BMO for the 2011 season, but that would require an estimated $15 million to reconfigure the stadium for football.


We need a permanent roof over the South End NOW! This will stop the possibility of the South Stands ever moving...

Time to start the roof Fundraising $10 Million to go! :D

[sully]

Thanks for posting - I'm keeping my eyes peeled to see what this Report says.

Having this issue settled and having TFC and Soccer being the only tenant / sport that is played at BMO would make my Christmas.

I am hopeful this Report puts a huge kybosh on the whole idea for good. I know that's not likely (I do agree 2011 is still a threat), but the economics don't make sense for conversion.

Do you think this report will be available to the public?

[Afra]

The Star (print version) mentionned that the CFL will make an official announcement today. They may have better luck expanding a university stadium like York or U of T. I would imagine if they are stuck at the Rogers Centre for next season, they may just sign a multi year deal - that would be sweet. Then we can worry about it 48 months from now. . .

[ManUtd4ever]

No surpsises here, common sense has prevailed, and thankfully so....

[billyfly]

Varsity was just waiting to be reno'ed beautifully and they f'ed it up. I know that TFC may not have existed if the double blue had gotten the Varsity stadium, but it would have been great as a facility.

[Detroit_TFC]

No surpsises here, common sense has prevailed, and thankfully so....

^ Frankly, common sense is in short supply these days, especially in the public realm and I for one wasn't counting on it. The Argos had a lot of enabling language put in the NSS/BMO Field agreement and I was worried they would leverage that to do anything they wanted.

So I'm very relieved.

[Wagner]

It's funny,
the Argo Owners look like buffoons for even suggesting it.
I used to kind of like the Argos, now I hate them. Well done, you've alienated the coveted this 30 yr old middle class male, that you lost through blackouts and bad marketing in the 90's.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

And a massive huzzah for that news.:taz::michael::pbjtime::drunk::cheers::party:

[Derko]

That's what I mean.

Just because they won't be able to play at BMO in 2010, it doesn't mean that this issue is dead.

Or not, might as well be optimistic on this 'Doom and Gloom' subject.:scarf: :drinking:

[C.Ronaldo]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-unlikely-to-play-at-bmo-field/article1401891/

las vegas?

you gotta be kidding me

i wont support a Canadian league that wont support our Canadian economy

[SteeltownBhoy]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Toronto – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club has issued the following statement following receipt of the CFL’s Feasibility Study on BMO Field:

“We would like to thank the Board of Governors of the Canadian Football League for authorizing a feasibility study on the potential of BMO Field as a home for the Toronto Argonauts. We accept the study’s main finding that while BMO Field is a fine facility, our unique brand of Canadian football could not be played there in its current state. In particular, extensive field measurements performed by a surveyor have indicated BMO field cannot adequately accommodate our game.

Our focus is now squarely on providing great game day entertainment in 2010 for our fans at Rogers Centre, a place we have been proud to call home for two decades. It is a first-class facility with state of the art media facilities, locker room facilities and technology. Our season ticket holders remain happy with Rogers Centre and its accessibility to the downtown core, as well as its indoor option in inclement weather. Rogers Centre is able to house our existing fan base and provides opportunity for future growth.

Our ownership now plans to reflect on its future over the holiday season and does not anticipate any further announcements until the New Year.”

[SteeltownBhoy]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/statement-regarding-cfl-feasibility-study-on-bmo-field

Sorry, I keep forgetting to post the link!!

[Always There]

las vegas?

you gotta be kidding me

i wont support a Canadian league that wont support our Canadian economy

What am I missing? I don't understand the Las Vegas remark. The CFL clearly supports the Canadian economy. I see nothing in the article you have posted about either. I'm confused.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/statement-regarding-cfl-feasibility-study-on-bmo-field


RIP!






for now!:D

[stugautz]

What am I missing? I don't understand the Las Vegas remark. The CFL clearly supports the Canadian economy. I see nothing in the article you have posted about either. I'm confused.

The board of governors had their meeting in Vegas.

[Roogsy]

OK, thank goodness. Does this put an end to it? PLEASE?

I'd like to get on with doing things and spending my time that support my team, not wasting it with this issue.

[Roogsy]

We are all this guy right now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGtWssdauME

SGtWssdauME

[TFC&SpursGuy]

http://argonauts.ca/article/statement-regarding-cfl-feasibility-study-on-bmo-field


IT'S OVER!!!!!!!!

(at least for now)

[sully]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/statement-regarding-cfl-feasibility-study-on-bmo-field



I'm not normally that interested in the Argos but I find this ongoing story facinating...

"extensive field measurements performed by a surveyor have indicated BMO field cannot adequately accommodate our game" - they needed a surveyor to tell them that!!

"Our ownership now plans to reflect on its future over the holiday season and does not anticipate any further announcements until the New Year.”
- So they're saying in the release that at the same time that everything is great and Rogers Centre remains a place they are proud to be in, they haven't decided if they will want to stay involved with the Argos or not!!

Surely the Argos fans must be sick to their stomachs of these two gobshites...but as (thankfully) an outsider looking at this it's incredible really...

[reggie]

bye bye...the argos will never see another penny from me...

[FluSH]

las vegas?

you gotta be kidding me

i wont support a Canadian league that wont support our Canadian economy


Funny enough... I was thinking the same thing! LOL

[FluSH]

What am I missing? I don't understand the Las Vegas remark. The CFL clearly supports the Canadian economy. I see nothing in the article you have posted about either. I'm confused.

Out of all places in North America... why would the CFL executives go to Las Vegas? Instead of maybe I don't know... Niagara Falls... or Banff...

I mean if the last minute deals for Las Vegas were that good... then so be it.

Local Tourism = Local Dollars for the people.

[Kevvv]

"extensive field measurements performed by a surveyor have indicated BMO field cannot adequately accommodate our game" - they needed a surveyor to tell them that!!


Actually, you're not reading enough into that statement. On the surface, it's obvious that two kids with a tape measure could tell them the dimensions of BMO aren't appropriate for the CFL. But extensive measurements by a surveyor implies (to me) that they also looked to see if BMO could accomodate a regulation CFL field: in other words, how much further south or north, what is there now, and would there be any modifications required to the playing surface (like installing another X yards of grass and piping to allow for a CFL-length field).

The surveyor likely arrived at the conclusion that some expected all along - to accomodate a CFL-sized field would require extensive, expensive modifications.

[Roogsy]

Just making it "official" what we all knew. But we can't expect some owner in Winnipeg, who has never been to BMO, to know that.

[Kevvv]

Just making it "official" what we all knew. But we can't expect some owner in Winnipeg, who has never been to BMO, to know that.


True, but the Winnipeg owner isn't the one that needs convincing - it's the Argos owners who suggested the move in the first place. If those two had visited BMO once with a tape measure, surely it would have died quietly. On the other hand (conspiracy hat on), was this just a distraction from the other FO issues, like the sacking of their coach two days ago?

[billyfly]

^Or that their Team doctor was arrested.

[Roogsy]

True, but the Winnipeg owner isn't the one that needs convincing

He does if he is on the board of governors that has to approve any move to BMO Field no?

[Blizzard]

No way they will invest more than salaries into Argos anytime soon.

:D

Never thought about dressing rooms being to small,nice.

It's a minor issue IMO. With the Queen Elizabeth building located right outside BMO Field's lobby, I could see that being a potential option.

Regarding the previous statement, for C and S I agree. Braley could be a different matter altogether.

B

[Kevvv]

Out of all places in North America... why would the CFL executives go to Las Vegas? Instead of maybe I don't know... Niagara Falls... or Banff...

I mean if the last minute deals for Las Vegas were that good... then so be it.

Local Tourism = Local Dollars for the people.


If a winter meeting is held in Canada, there's a much greater chance that the meeting could be postponed or cancelled due to weather.

[Blizzard]

True, but the Winnipeg owner isn't the one that needs convincing - it's the Argos owners who suggested the move in the first place. If those two had visited BMO once with a tape measure, surely it would have died quietly. On the other hand (conspiracy hat on), was this just a distraction from the other FO issues, like the sacking of their coach two days ago?

They didn't need to visit BMO. They knew it was too small. They were banking on the league bending the rules for them.

[Kevvv]

He does if he is on the board of governors that has to approve any move to BMO Field no?


Yes, but I would take that as a next step. I would have expected that the Argos would do a feasibility study before going to the BOG, unless they intended to ask permission to play on a shrunken field.

[Hitcho]

I'm not sure this is dead forever. It won't be unless the Argos get their own stadium or start selling 50,000 tickets per game. Every time the Rogers lease comes up for renewal, there will be distractions about "oh well we might go here instead" to try and keep the rent down. Next time this comes up, there might be public money available to get the stadium expanded or private investor money from Braley or someone else. So it remains a longer term issue in my opinion.

That said, MLSE are not stupid (far from it) and I would fully expect them to start taking steps now to make it as expensive and difficult as possible for the Argos to ever modify the stadium for CFL. The north stand is a good start. Foe example, filling up dates on an annual basis for cash spinning friendlies on the new grass (Real, Barca, Liverpool, etc year after year will make the City a tonne of money) and working with the CSA to make BMO Field the unoffical home of Canadian soccer so that the city gets more money from that and the damage to the sport would be huge if the Argos took the CSA dates away. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a string of minor midifications over the years designed to keep the place soccer specific and make it harder to convert the facility for CFL.

The Argos under the current fuckwit owners are not really a threat now that the CFL has pissed on their reduced field size idea. The Argos under new owners or with public money backing would be. MLSE and the CSA need to start working now to stop that from ever happening.

Of course, when TFC's 15 year lease (?) is up at Exhibition, there might be an opportunity for MLSE to build us a red bull arena type place at another venue that they would own outright. If the TFC fan base keeps growing AND the league keeps growing in terms of tv ratings, franchise profitiability, etc, then that's not an unreal dream to hold onto. If MLSE could make money from a new stadium then they'd probably do it. Neither the team nor the sport as a whole are big enough to justify it for now, but in 15 years? With all the school kids playing soccer now out earnign money and wanting to spend it on TFC and MLS? Who knows. If MLS ever gets a real foothold in the US (and with current grass roots growth and immigration from soccer supporting countries still increasing, then it very well might in the next 10 to 15 years), then MLSE will be nicely placed to make a huge windfall from their $10m investment in the franchise. A new stadium in those circumstances, location permitting, might actually be a good move.

[Roogsy]

^ :thumbsup:

What he said...

[Whoop]

I'm not sure this is dead forever. It won't be unless the Argos get their own stadium or start selling 50,000 tickets per game. Every time the Rogers lease comes up for renewal, there will be distractions about "oh well we might go here instead" to try and keep the rent down. Next time this comes up, there might be public money available to get the stadium expanded or private investor money from Braley or someone else. So it remains a longer term issue in my opinion.

That said, MLSE are not stupid (far from it) and I would fully expect them to start taking steps now to make it as expensive and difficult as possible for the Argos to ever modify the stadium for CFL. The north stand is a good start. Foe example, filling up dates on an annual basis for cash spinning friendlies on the new grass (Real, Barca, Liverpool, etc year after year will make the City a tonne of money) and working with the CSA to make BMO Field the unoffical home of Canadian soccer so that the city gets more money from that and the damage to the sport would be huge if the Argos took the CSA dates away. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a string of minor midifications over the years designed to keep the place soccer specific and make it harder to convert the facility for CFL.

The Argos under the current fuckwit owners are not really a threat now that the CFL has pissed on their reduced field size idea. The Argos under new owners or with public money backing would be. MLSE and the CSA need to start working now to stop that from ever happening.

Of course, when TFC's 15 year lease (?) is up at Exhibition, there might be an opportunity for MLSE to build us a red bull arena type place at another venue that they would own outright. If the TFC fan base keeps growing AND the league keeps growing in terms of tv ratings, franchise profitiability, etc, then that's not an unreal dream to hold onto. If MLSE could make money from a new stadium then they'd probably do it. Neither the team nor the sport as a whole are big enough to justify it for now, but in 15 years? With all the school kids playing soccer now out earnign money and wanting to spend it on TFC and MLS? Who knows. If MLS ever gets a real foothold in the US (and with current grass roots growth and immigration from soccer supporting countries still increasing, then it very well might in the next 10 to 15 years), then MLSE will be nicely placed to make a huge windfall from their $10m investment in the franchise. A new stadium in those circumstances, location permitting, might actually be a good move.

This could be exciting.

But that is in the future.

[Loyal]

It is official and the Argos will be reworking their arrangement with the Rogers Centre.

[Oldtimer]

The north stand is a good start. Foe example, filling up dates on an annual basis for cash spinning friendlies on the new grass (Real, Barca, Liverpool, etc year after year will make the City a tonne of money) and working with the CSA to make BMO Field the unoffical home of Canadian soccer so that the city gets more money from that and the damage to the sport would be huge if the Argos took the CSA dates away.

Actually BMO Field (a/k/a the "National Soccer Stadium") is the official home of Canadian Soccer. The CMNT never wanted to play there, because of the turf, but with the change to grass, expect "official" to become "reality."

[boban]

That's what I mean.

Just because they won't be able to play at BMO in 2010, it doesn't mean that this issue is dead.
My thoughts exactly. This is what, the 3rd, 4th year of Argo threats to move to the NSS?
When does this stop. Honestly this is becoming a nuisance. Any way legal action can be taken to shut them up for once and for all?


What were Cynamon and Sokolowski thinking?.... really:

42 CFL players with their crap load of gear in a soccer locker room??? You have to be kidding me...

They have to be delusional...
Not only that, you would have to build totally different change rooms. What is the practicality of TFC players and staff moving there belongings in and out after each game, likewise for the Argos. And its more than change rooms. Training rooms, washrooms, therapy rooms, etc. are needed more for the Argos just for numbers alone.


What am I missing? I don't understand the Las Vegas remark. The CFL clearly supports the Canadian economy. I see nothing in the article you have posted about either. I'm confused.

The CFL executives have to dine, rent meeting space and sleep somewhere during these meetings. Why not do that in this country instead of giving Americans the money?

[SilverSamurai]

I'm not sure this is dead forever. It won't be unless the Argos get their own stadium or start selling 50,000 tickets per game. Every time the Rogers lease comes up for renewal, there will be distractions about "oh well we might go here instead" to try and keep the rent down. Next time this comes up, there might be public money available to get the stadium expanded or private investor money from Braley or someone else. So it remains a longer term issue in my opinion.

That said, MLSE are not stupid (far from it) and I would fully expect them to start taking steps now to make it as expensive and difficult as possible for the Argos to ever modify the stadium for CFL. The north stand is a good start. Foe example, filling up dates on an annual basis for cash spinning friendlies on the new grass (Real, Barca, Liverpool, etc year after year will make the City a tonne of money) and working with the CSA to make BMO Field the unoffical home of Canadian soccer so that the city gets more money from that and the damage to the sport would be huge if the Argos took the CSA dates away. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a string of minor midifications over the years designed to keep the place soccer specific and make it harder to convert the facility for CFL.

The Argos under the current fuckwit owners are not really a threat now that the CFL has pissed on their reduced field size idea. The Argos under new owners or with public money backing would be. MLSE and the CSA need to start working now to stop that from ever happening.

Of course, when TFC's 15 year lease (?) is up at Exhibition, there might be an opportunity for MLSE to build us a red bull arena type place at another venue that they would own outright. If the TFC fan base keeps growing AND the league keeps growing in terms of tv ratings, franchise profitiability, etc, then that's not an unreal dream to hold onto. If MLSE could make money from a new stadium then they'd probably do it. Neither the team nor the sport as a whole are big enough to justify it for now, but in 15 years? With all the school kids playing soccer now out earnign money and wanting to spend it on TFC and MLS? Who knows. If MLS ever gets a real foothold in the US (and with current grass roots growth and immigration from soccer supporting countries still increasing, then it very well might in the next 10 to 15 years), then MLSE will be nicely placed to make a huge windfall from their $10m investment in the franchise. A new stadium in those circumstances, location permitting, might actually be a good move.
Unless I'm mistaken, don't the CSA get the 2nd choice after TFC?
So in essence, the Argos would be a 3rd choice tenant?
Might even be 4th after that lacrosse team... Are they still playing at BMO next season though?

I think the order is TFC, CSA, Lacrosee folks (whatever their name is), Argos (IF they ever got it and hopefully they never will!)

[Oldtimer]

Might even be 4th after that lacrosse team... Are they still playing at BMO next season though?


The Nationals are still playing at BMO next year.

[Redcoe15]

All I can say is GOOD!!! The idea of the Argos moving into BMO Field was a joke from the moment Cynamon and Sokolowski made their intentions known a couple of weeks ago. There was no way they could have done it without there being reverberations throughout the league with the game being played on a smaller field.

Will this be the end of the attempts and rumours? You can never say never. But I am more confident BMO Field will continue to be used as a showcase for soccer in Canada for a long long while.

NOW WE PARTY!!!

:party::party:

:pbjtime: :pbjtime: :pbjtime: :pbjtime: :pbjtime:

:cheers::drunk::cheers::drunk:

:D

[jloome]

To repeat myself from last week: never will happen, never was going to happen. Hell will freeze over before the CFL allows a smaller pitch.

[jloome]

^ Frankly, common sense is in short supply these days, especially in the public realm and I for one wasn't counting on it. The Argos had a lot of enabling language put in the NSS/BMO Field agreement and I was worried they would leverage that to do anything they wanted.

So I'm very relieved.

Why? If you know the CFL at all, this was never going to happen. THe language in the deal is irrelevant; the Argos' own league was never going to sanction playing on that small a pitch, or anything even close to it.

This was all much ado about squat, which is probably why MLSE wisely kept out of it. It knew full well there was no need, that CFL lore, tradition, fanbase and business practices would all guarantee it wasn't going to happen.

[Hitcho]

Actually BMO Field (a/k/a the "National Soccer Stadium") is the official home of Canadian Soccer. The CMNT never wanted to play there, because of the turf, but with the change to grass, expect "official" to become "reality."

I thought it was supposed to be official, but then I kept hearing rumours that the CSA would want to move the games around the country anyway to keep up interest in all areas and not just give the CMNT games to Toronto area only. So I wasn't sure if they would want to commit 100% to BMO Field for that reason. I hope they do.

It's a bit like when Wembley was being rebuilt and the England team toured the country for its matches, but on a much, much larger scale.

[Hitcho]

Why? If you know the CFL at all, this was never going to happen. THe language in the deal is irrelevant; the Argos' own league was never going to sanction playing on that small a pitch, or anything even close to it.

This was all much ado about squat, which is probably why MLSE wisely kept out of it. It knew full well there was no need, that CFL lore, tradition, fanbase and business practices would all guarantee it wasn't going to happen.

I don't know the CFL well enough to comment definitively, but there is definitely sense in what you're saying Jezza. However, a couple of comments on why I would continue to take this threat seriously going forward:

1. I've heard people opine that no Argos means no CFL because of the loss in tv money etc without commercials being broadcast into the heart of Canada's biggest populace, and the fact that it would leave them with a 7 team league. Again, I don't know how much substance there is to these suggestions, but you can see why any decision for the CFL which came down to "shortened pitch for the Argos vs no CFL" would not be a hard one to make, at least on a temporary basis.

2. You're assuming that no money is thrown at this to modify BMO Field for a CFL pitch. Right now, that looks like a safe assumption as the fuckwit Argo owners have no cash and the City is in no position to help out, especially so soon after the TFC deal was done. However, what might the landscape be in 5 years? New owners for the Argos with money to invest on something like this for a longer term vision? Better times for the city or a groundswell of people saying "spend the money to save the Argos or they are going bust"? I don't think we can completely rule out $$$ for modification in the future.

So, while this is great news I would suggest that we all maintain a watchful stance on this, at least for the emdium term or until the Argos find another permanent solution beyond the Dome. To me, this remains a very real threat. If the Argos ever get the money (from anywhere) to pay for the modifications, then the City will allow them in as equal tenants with TFC. EQUAL TENANTS. At that point our world collapses because they'd get equal say on dates of use, stadium colours, field markings, storage space and so on. That, my friend, is armageddon time for TFC fans.

[Hitcho]

Unless I'm mistaken, don't the CSA get the 2nd choice after TFC?
So in essence, the Argos would be a 3rd choice tenant?
Might even be 4th after that lacrosse team... Are they still playing at BMO next season though?

I think the order is TFC, CSA, Lacrosee folks (whatever their name is), Argos (IF they ever got it and hopefully they never will!)

The City were making noises along the lines of "The Argos would not get a different deal from TFC if this were to go ahead". TO me, that indicates an equal footing. And that would also mean a share in the concession and parking receipts as well as helping to shoulder the shortfall in operating losses which I believe TFC had to agree to. If they are getting all that, then you would have to think they would get equal say in dates of use, stadium livery and colouring, storage space, and so on.

So no, if they ever got into BMO Field, I don;t think the Argos would be a 4th choice tenant. I think they would be joint primary tenant with TFC and on an equal footing.

The current fuckwit Argo owners cannot afford to pay up on equal terms to TFC I expect (hope), but who knows down the line?

[Toronto Ruffrider]

2. You're assuming that no money is thrown at this to modify BMO Field for a CFL pitch. Right now, that looks like a safe assumption as the fuckwit Argo owners have no cash and the City is in no position to help out, especially so soon after the TFC deal was done. However, what might the landscape be in 5 years? New owners for the Argos with money to invest on something like this for a longer term vision? Better times for the city or a groundswell of people saying "spend the money to save the Argos or they are going bust"? I don't think we can completely rule out $$$ for modification in the future.


The dollar value for modifying BMO that keeps popping up is $15 million, but as others have pointed out, I believe the actual dollar value is more like $30+ million. BMO Field would require extensive (and expensive) structural changes in order to host CFL games. I'm not saying it won't happen, but one would think that given the cost of retrofitting BMO, it would make far more sense just to build a new stadium from scratch.

[Hitcho]

The dollar value for modifying BMO that keeps popping up is $15 million, but as others have pointed out, I believe the actual dollar value is more like $30+ million. BMO Field would require extensive (and expensive) structural changes in order to host CFL games. I'm not saying it won't happen, but one would think that given the cost of retrofitting BMO, it would make far more sense just to build a new stadium from scratch.

Yes, if you can find a venue. I know plenty have been proposed but would they actually be available when the pinch came, including five years from now? And what about land costs, added to building costs? Would that make the other venues as attractive still? Because if not, then the only options are stay as Dome tenants and pay whatever Rogers demands or retrofit BMO Field and try and get some public money for it. (Or relocate/fold the team, but I would be sad to see that happen even as a non CFL fan).

[jloome]

I don't know the CFL well enough to comment definitively, but there is definitely sense in what you're saying Jezza. However, a couple of comments on why I would continue to take this threat seriously going forward:

1. I've heard people opine that no Argos means no CFL because of the loss in tv money etc without commercials being broadcast into the heart of Canada's biggest populace, and the fact that it would leave them with a 7 team league. Again, I don't know how much substance there is to these suggestions, but you can see why any decision for the CFL which came down to "shortened pitch for the Argos vs no CFL" would not be a hard one to make, at least on a temporary basis.

2. You're assuming that no money is thrown at this to modify BMO Field for a CFL pitch. Right now, that looks like a safe assumption as the fuckwit Argo owners have no cash and the City is in no position to help out, especially so soon after the TFC deal was done. However, what might the landscape be in 5 years? New owners for the Argos with money to invest on something like this for a longer term vision? Better times for the city or a groundswell of people saying "spend the money to save the Argos or they are going bust"? I don't think we can completely rule out $$$ for modification in the future.

So, while this is great news I would suggest that we all maintain a watchful stance on this, at least for the emdium term or until the Argos find another permanent solution beyond the Dome. To me, this remains a very real threat. If the Argos ever get the money (from anywhere) to pay for the modifications, then the City will allow them in as equal tenants with TFC. EQUAL TENANTS. At that point our world collapses because they'd get equal say on dates of use, stadium colours, field markings, storage space and so on. That, my friend, is armageddon time for TFC fans.

Watchful is always sensible. But neither of these points makes it particularly more likely. Toronto is considered a pretty weak partner in the CFL (please, games in Edmonton and Saskatchewan routinely draw 35,000 plus. The only reason they'd worry about the Argos is history and because the league is already tiny.)

And on the second point, the city would almost certainly have to consider the legal implications of a massive expansion that a) hurts the business of its existing partner in the facility, perhaps to the point of it losing its investment and b) paying for such an expansion without a significant, multi-million dollar ownership investment package. The idea that they would simply be granted equal tenant status seems exceptionally unlikely.

Net resut? Watchful's fine. But it's never likely to happen, so there's no point everyone getting so excited.

[Oldtimer]

Hitcho, you scare me.

The picture you paint is far worse than I was thinking, but I suspect you might be right.

[TheRenter]

The Nationals are still playing at BMO next year.

I don't get it?! I thought if this whole install a grass pitch at BMO/move the bubble over Lamport deal got done, that the lacrosse team would then be playing out of Lamport, no?!

Having a second tenant, lacrosse or otherwise, precludes BMO from being a SSS, no, or am I missing something here altogether?

I mean, isn't Lamport suitable for the needs of the nationals?

[TFCRegina]

Watchful is always sensible. But neither of these points makes it particularly more likely. Toronto is considered a pretty weak partner in the CFL (please, games in Edmonton and Saskatchewan routinely draw 35,000 plus. The only reason they'd worry about the Argos is history and because the league is already tiny.)

And on the second point, the city would almost certainly have to consider the legal implications of a massive expansion that a) hurts the business of its existing partner in the facility, perhaps to the point of it losing its investment and b) paying for such an expansion without a significant, multi-million dollar ownership investment package. The idea that they would simply be granted equal tenant status seems exceptionally unlikely.

Net resut? Watchful's fine. But it's never likely to happen, so there's no point everyone getting so excited.

Sask doesn't routinely draw 35k plus. Let's not make up facts.

Saskatchewan didn't start selling out Mosaic/Taylor Field until 2007 when the team got good. Prior to that, it was super easy to get tickets and the average was much lower. Routinely would indicate that it draws well regardless of how the team does. IE: Part of the normal happenings.

I'm also aware that it sits 33k at max, 2,000 temporary seats, 31k in normal seating. It can be outfitted for as many as 55k in temporary seats but they are just that...temporary.

[Rudi]

I don't get it?! I thought if this whole install a grass pitch at BMO/move the bubble over Lamport deal got done, that the lacrosse team would then be playing out of Lamport, no?!

Having a second tenant, lacrosse or otherwise, precludes BMO from being a SSS, no, or am I missing something here altogether?

I mean, isn't Lamport suitable for the needs of the nationals?
Why would the Nationals want to play at a decrepit stadium with second-rate facilities?

Being an SSS doesn't preclude everything other than soccer from being played there.

[Whoop]

I'm not really worried about half a dozen field lacrosse games.

Besides you could argue that BMO is fulfilling their access to the community requirement. LOL

[Rudi]

I'm not really worried about half a dozen field lacrosse games.

Besides you could argue that BMO is fulfilling their access to the community requirement. LOL
Exactly.

The lacrosse team won't do any damage to the turf, and will likely be even less noticable now that their lines are easier to remove.

[TheRenter]

fair enough. grateful for the agros to BMO talks having ceased, for the time being:rolleyes:

[ensco]

for the love of God, if somebody is going to put millions into a stadium in downtown Toronto to make it usable for the Argos, do it at Varsity!

Margaret Macmillan as Trinity College Provost led the opposition to having Varsity remain a spectator facility. At the time there were grandiose plans to crreate a "face" of U of T on Bloor St (which of course never happened). To those who argued for maintaining Varsity Stadium because of the tradition, Macmillan said "well we used to have public hangings, and we don't keep those spaces for that purpose anymore". You couldn't make this stuff up.

Macmillan's gone off to Oxford now, maybe this could be re-looked at. But U of T politics is a serious rat's nest....

[Parkdale]

So we can put down the pitchforks for a year? Good.


I prefer a trident to a pitchfork.

A trident says 'God of the Seas', but a pitchfork just says:
'xenophobic peasant who chases frankenstein despite his jaunty jacket'

[Hitcho]

Watchful is always sensible. But neither of these points makes it particularly more likely. Toronto is considered a pretty weak partner in the CFL (please, games in Edmonton and Saskatchewan routinely draw 35,000 plus. The only reason they'd worry about the Argos is history and because the league is already tiny.)

And on the second point, the city would almost certainly have to consider the legal implications of a massive expansion that a) hurts the business of its existing partner in the facility, perhaps to the point of it losing its investment and b) paying for such an expansion without a significant, multi-million dollar ownership investment package. The idea that they would simply be granted equal tenant status seems exceptionally unlikely.

Net resut? Watchful's fine. But it's never likely to happen, so there's no point everyone getting so excited.

I don;t have time to find it, but there was a quote somehwre in the Argos threads from someone in the City Council that basically said "if the Argos do come in then they would not get a different deal to TFC" or words to that effect.

I'm not aiming to be a doomsayer (sorry Oldtimer!) but the bottom line is if either A) the CFL feel it's necessary to back down on pitch size to keep the Argos going, or B) the Argos someway somehow get the money to retrofit BMO Field, then the city's position seems to be "you guys both use the place, we're not giving either of you preferential status". So right now, we're good. But if A or B comes to pass, then we could be up in deep trouble.

You seem very confident Jeremy, so I hope you are right. But the reason for your confidence seems to be a personal belief that this will never come to pass. With all due respect, that's not much comfort to people when you consider that A or B could quite feasibly come to pass in the next few years.

[jloome]

I don;t have time to find it, but there was a quote somehwre in the Argos threads from someone in the City Council that basically said "if the Argos do come in then they would not get a different deal to TFC" or words to that effect.

I'm not aiming to be a doomsayer (sorry Oldtimer!) but the bottom line is if either A) the CFL feel it's necessary to back down on pitch size to keep the Argos going, or B) the Argos someway somehow get the money to retrofit BMO Field, then the city's position seems to be "you guys both use the place, we're not giving either of you preferential status". So right now, we're good. But if A or B comes to pass, then we could be up in deep trouble.

You seem very confident Jeremy, so I hope you are right. But the reason for your confidence seems to be a personal belief that this will never come to pass. With all due respect, that's not much comfort to people when you consider that A or B could quite feasibly come to pass in the next few years.

That belief is based on years of following CFL politics, which are legion. Even assuming they got the money together, they'd also have to convince the federal government to kick in, as with MLSE, and for that to happen, they'd have to present some overriding national interest. A national soccer stadium makes sense and can be sold to voters.

Bailing out private businessmen too stupid to see that the success at BMO has nothing to do with the location and is all about the product? Nope, doesn't seem particularly high percentage to me. But that's going to have to happen on both the provincial and federal level before any CFL owner is coughing up the $30-million-to-$45 million such a retrofit would cost.

Yeah, it's a belief. But unlike the fear of it happening, it's at least rational, as in grounded in the probable.

It's just all exceptionally unrealistic. And I'd argue that you haven't presented anything "quite feasible" at all. Whereas, the cost, the politics, the history of the CFL and a multitude of other factors DO add up to "quite unlikely."

And the smaller field thing will NEVER happen.

TFCRegina, that's because their away attendance skews the average. When they're at home, they averaged 30,606 this year, according to reporter Rob Vanstone, who has covered the team for years. On the road, they averaged 33,696. Even off by nearly 5,000 seats as I was, they're still well ahead of Toronto.

And the ESkies were at 37,614. Either way, both cities were well above Toronto's averge of just under 27,000. Every team in the west was. Winnipeg, Hamilton and Montreal averaged less.

So, it's hard to argue -- as was the original point -- that the CFL is any more dependent on Toronto than any other market.

[craigtfc]

Flash foward 365 days from now, headlines read.....Argos looking to play at BMO. I will repost this in 365 days from now.

[Bars92]

They might think about it, but they'll always go back to the Skydome in the end.

[profit89]

Good. They can Fuck right off!

Ditto.

[Shakes McQueen]

Watchful is always sensible. But neither of these points makes it particularly more likely. Toronto is considered a pretty weak partner in the CFL (please, games in Edmonton and Saskatchewan routinely draw 35,000 plus. The only reason they'd worry about the Argos is history and because the league is already tiny.)

This isn't really true, from what I know of the CFL.

The Toronto Argos (and by extension, the Toronto media market) are the biggest factor in the money the CFL currently gets from their exclusive TV deal with TSN.

And the Argos average 25k-27k a game, last I had read, which is perfectly strong attendance for a CFL game.

I'm pretty sure the Argo's owners actually recently wanted to restructure the league's profit sharing structure, and cited the role they have in generating television-based revenue for the league.

Again though, I suppose this could all be incorrect. To be fair, I don't pay much attention to the CFL, aside from these little incursions into the soccer world that seemingly happen every damn year.

- Scott

[Hitcho]

jloome - I'm in no position to comment on CFL politics and history so I won't try! But I'm glad you're confident.

I still think that if it came to losing the Argos and by extension the CFL, then government money could be found to be spent on a government owned infrastructure, and the league would be prepared t bend ts rules on a temporary basis for one franchise to stop itself from going out of existence. Survive or die would surely lead to survive being picked. Would it ever get to that? I don't know. I do agree that it seems unlikely some wealthy person will buy up a failing franchise in a non-growth league with mininmal profits available and drop $15 to $30 million on retro-fitting BMO Field. That's just madness.

[james]

Maple Leafs Sports and Ent. have shown they dont want the Argos playing at BMO field. One plus side of being owned by MLSE is they are rich and more powerful then the Argo owners. MLSE probably would have the upper hand in telling the City the Argos cant play at BMO, and if City disagrees MLSE could always just buy the whole stadium off the city if they had to. What the stadium cost $60 million??? MLSE is worth something like $1.5 billion, how much are the Argo owners worth?? and MLSE spend $60 million just on Leafs and Raptor salaries every year! :D

[Shakes McQueen]

Maple Leafs Sports and Ent. have shown they dont want the Argos playing at BMO field. One plus side of being owned by MLSE is they are rich and more powerful then the Argo owners. MLSE probably would have the upper hand in telling the City the Argos cant play at BMO, and if City disagrees MLSE could always just buy the whole stadium off the city if they had to. What the stadium cost $60 million??? MLSE is worth something like $1.5 billion, how much are the Argo owners worth?? and MLSE spend $60 million just on Leafs and Raptor salaries every year! :D

Not possible. The land that stadium sits on is also not owned by MLSE, it's worth a fortune, and it's probably not even for sale.

I also think people lose perspective on MLSE's wealth - they didn't get to where they are by brazenly throwing millions of dollars around. A lot of folks here have become really good at theoretically spending tons of MLSE's money preserving and improving our little soccer team, typically under the weak reasoning that "they can afford it".

As an example, I've seen a few people prospose that, if the Argos moved into BMO Field, MLSE should just build TFC it's own stadium in response. Like... really? You expect MLSE to spend tens of millions of dollars building another new stadium, after three years, and the millions that were contributed towards building BMO Field?

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

Not possible. The land that stadium sits on is also not owned by MLSE, it's worth a fortune, and it's probably not even for sale.



The city can't sell any part of Exhibition place. It has restrictions placed on it by the provincial government.

Overall, this is probably a good thing, as the place probably would have been turned into a forest of condos by now if the city had unlimited power to do whatever it wanted with the place. Short term profits to cover city deficits would have swayed the city into selling to developers.

[Mulder]

The city can't sell any part of Exhibition place. It has restrictions placed on it by the provincial government.

Overall, this is probably a good thing, as the place probably would have been turned into a forest of condos by now if the city had unlimited power to do whatever it wanted with the place. Short term profits to cover city deficits would have swayed the city into selling to developers.

Just as any Stadium hopes at Downsview park not going to happen. The plans and ideas keep popping up. But people need to be reminded that it's owned by the goverment of Canada. This is why the Toronto Legecy (yeah that silly Hockey team idea) had to remove plans for a Downsview arena and hotel off the website. I bet they were reminded that the Goverement probably won't sell that land anytime soon. Even though developlers would love to get thier hands on it.

[puskas1954]

I owned Argos season tickets from 2004 to 2007 and I was always of the opinion that the Rogers Centre suited the team just fine. Especially when they were competetive and were drawing 35,000 to 40,000 to some games. I'm not entirely sure what the logic of the Argos ownership would be in moving to a venue that can accommodate around 22,000 fans max. If they manage to be a competetive team again then I can see the per game average getting back well above 30,000 as in the Damon Allen years. Why would you turn away 10,000 fans per game ?. This whole thing smells like desperation from Argos ownership which has run out of ideas on how to improve the product on the field. With new ownership will come better results and this issue will die as it should.

:scarf::drinking:

[TorCanSoc]

^Finally the voice of a true argos fan. Don't they want to replicate Montreal. Smaller venue, sold out every game, hard to get tickets and all that?

If TFC sold 30,000 tickets a game, and played in a real grass version of the Roger's Centre, it would still not be great. Sold out games, help sell tickets.

Anyway. No Argos. No problem.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

^ I have never been a fan of the comparison between BMO Field and Molson Stadium. Beyond the obvious similarity in capacity, differences in each stadium and the CFL team that plays in each city pop up.


Molson Stadium was designed for Canadian football, whereas BMO Field clearly wasn't.
The Argos already draw over 20k fans per game. Does anyone remember the Alouettes' attendance before the club moved to Molson Stadium? As I recall, it was very poor.
The Argos had a favourable lease at the 'Dome in recent years. This may have been true for the Als at the Big Owe, but I doubt it.

At the end of the day, it makes little sense for a team to move into a smaller stadium if it's goal is to sell MORE tickets. Had the Argos been averaging 5 or 10k fans per game, a move to a venue like BMO would be financially viable. As great as the demand for Argos tickets would be at BMO, however, the club simply cannot sell more tickets there than it does at Skydome.

As long as we're making comparisons, I believe a much more apt comparison to Molson Stadium existed in the form of the old Varsity Stadium downtown. Varsity Stadium had a very similar seating capacity and configuration to what exists at Molson Stadium. Throw in the comparable histories of each venue and the fact that the Argos drew flies in the late '90s, and Varsity Stadium could have been to the Argos what Molson Stadium was to the Alouettes.

[rocker]

also, Argo fans would certainly see ticket price increases... and ticket scarcity. Most don't seem to realize that TFC per game prices are 37% (expensive seats) to 50% (cheap seats) higher than Argo per game ticket prices.

Are Argo fans willing to pay the extra price, in a stadium without the comforts of Skydome?

[billyfly]

Bob McCown on PTS today discussed real grass at the Rogers Centre:

“This is being discussed. I don’t know what level it’s at. I have been told– I have heard that it may have already been decided that two years from now they are going to put grass in the Rogers Centre. No one has confirmed that to me, but that’s what’s out there.
“That the Toronto Argonauts have been informed to look for an alternative place to play, because the plan is to put natural grass in there, and the Blue Jays have no intention muck up their grass. So, whether it’s 100% or 50%– I think it’s one of those two– it’s at least being seriously discussed, and the target is probably the 2015 season. But it could be 2014.”

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/1...sly-discussed/ (http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/12/18/mccown-grass-by-2015-being-seriously-discussed/)

[Alonso]

Bob McCown on PTS today discussed real grass at the Rogers Centre:

“This is being discussed. I don’t know what level it’s at. I have been told– I have heard that it may have already been decided that two years from now they are going to put grass in the Rogers Centre. No one has confirmed that to me, but that’s what’s out there.
“That the Toronto Argonauts have been informed to look for an alternative place to play, because the plan is to put natural grass in there, and the Blue Jays have no intention muck up their grass. So, whether it’s 100% or 50%– I think it’s one of those two– it’s at least being seriously discussed, and the target is probably the 2015 season. But it could be 2014.”

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/1...sly-discussed/ (http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/12/18/mccown-grass-by-2015-being-seriously-discussed/)


Fuckin sweet. Early and late season TFC venue with grass and a retractable roof for those one off days when the weather is actually nice in October/November and March/April.

Perhaps their are benefits to a professional sports monopoly in this city after all?

[billyfly]

Question is will the Argos to BMO field topic resurface soon if this is true and plays out.

[Alonso]

Question is will the Argos to BMO field topic resurface soon if this is true and plays out.

Not as long as BMO has grass.

The Argos would turn it into a mud pit. Same reason that they would supposedly have to leave the Skydome. Plus BMO would have to be retrofitted since the pitch/field isn't big enough.

It would never happen because of this.

Agros need to pull their heads out from their asses and partner up with one of the universities and build their own stadium with 30,000k or so.

[billyfly]

^We've all talked about that before but I still think it could happen.

[Red CB Toronto]

My question is if either of the U of T/York deals had gone through that the Argos and CSA had been partnering on had gone through, how would have the issue of real grass been delt with? Because they would have had to for sure.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

MLSE needs to sell its share of BMO FIELD.........to the ARGO'S OF COURSE:hump:


AND THEN BUILD ITSELF A PROPER FOOOOOOOOOOKING FOOTIE STADE!!!!!!!

seriously THIS IDEA IS BRILLIANT!;)

[Alonso]

MLSE needs to sell its share of BMO FIELD.........to the ARGO'S OF COURSE:hump:


AND THEN BUILD ITSELF A PROPER FOOOOOOOOOOKING FOOTIE STADE!!!!!!!

seriously THIS IDEA IS BRILLIANT!;)


Now we're talking!

[Kyle_121]

MLSE needs to sell its share of BMO FIELD.........to the ARGO'S OF COURSE:hump:


AND THEN BUILD ITSELF A PROPER FOOOOOOOOOOKING FOOTIE STADE!!!!!!!

seriously THIS IDEA IS BRILLIANT!;)

You do know that the City of Toronto owns the stadium, right? MLSE doesn't own any shares, they are the operators of BMO Field. MLSE kicked in $8M of the $63M to build the stadium. They also secured the naming rights of the stadium for $10M but sold that to BMO for $27M.

[Auzzy]

My question is if either of the U of T/York deals had gone through that the Argos and CSA had been partnering on had gone through, how would have the issue of real grass been delt with? Because they would have had to for sure.

It likely would have started and permanently stayed as plastic turf if the Argos hadn't bailed. Any university would want some time on the field as well, if a stadium is being built on their campus. No way a grass field could withstand all that & still be semi-decent for footy. Maybe it even would have started as grass for the U20 cup, and then switched to plastic once the grass is trashed.

[TFC07]

Or maybe this mean TFC moves to Sky Dome?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Jays will want real grass ASAP now that they have a possible winning team being built. Good for them.

This will be crunch time for the Argos. Within a couple years of winning the league in its centennial year they could likely be playing in temporary surroundings with huge hits to an attendance that was just injected with this championship season.

BMO is too small for them not speaking to the natural grass system that's not designed for gridiron.

I have no problem with BMO past winterizing. A roof is a nice idea but a second priority to me.

[billyfly]

Where can a stadium be built? 2 years is a short time and hence why somehow I see them forcing their way into BMO. (yes I know about the field length issues and the North stand)

I know the study said it was not feasible but if not BMO where?

York U's PAN AM stadium?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yes. They can play anywhere there is room for them temporarily while they announce their future plans.

It's cheaper and is less friction than taking out a stand in BMO they just built and uprooting/discarding the million dollar pitch they are presently putting in.

[Toronto]

Fuckin sweet. Early and late season TFC venue with grass and a retractable roof for those one off days when the weather is actually nice in October/November and March/April.

Perhaps their are benefits to a professional sports monopoly in this city after all?

With most NFL teams and the old NASL teams who have used baseball parks for home games-- they have to play over a dirt infield or you put into temp grass that never matches up.

Real sexy that.

[Toronto]

Where can a stadium be built? 2 years is a short time and hence why somehow I see them forcing their way into BMO. (yes I know about the field length issues and the North stand)

I know the study said it was not feasible but if not BMO where?

York U's PAN AM stadium?

Do you not remember were the Lions and Whitecaps played in 2011? It was a much much nicer venue than BMO and it cost 14 million and sat 27000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field

When I look at BMO I can't see how it cost more than 8 Million-- let's be honest it's a high school stadium on steriods that was done on the cheap. MLSE STYLE!

[Oldtimer]

When I look at BMO I can't see how it cost more than 8 Million-- let's be honest it's a high school stadium on steriods that was done on the cheap. MLSE STYLE!

It was the CSA under Kevan Pipe that designed the stadium and set the budget. ML$E had nothing to do with the design or costing. ML$E was brought in later as a partner after the Argos bailed, and oversaw construction (on time and on budget, btw), but was forced to take the already designed stadium. What ML$E did afterwards was add some washrooms and concessions, and build 1 new stand plus some table seating, all at their expense with no city or CSA help, even though they don't own the place. Sorry, you can fault them for a lot of things, but not the stadium.

In 2007, BMO Field was way better than the pointy ball and baseball stadiums where most MLS teams played at the time. It was even better than the Krew's SSS. It only looks cheap by today's standards.

[Alonso]

With most NFL teams and the old NASL teams who have used baseball parks for home games-- they have to play over a dirt infield or you put into temp grass that never matches up.

Real sexy that.


Still better then playing on turf at the Skydome or at BMO in very cold weather IMHO.

[David_Oliveira]

Do you not remember were the Lions and Whitecaps played in 2011? It was a much much nicer venue than BMO and it cost 14 million and sat 27000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field

When I look at BMO I can't see how it cost more than 8 Million-- let's be honest it's a high school stadium on steriods that was done on the cheap. MLSE STYLE!

Really?? Did you ever go there?? It was a glorified scaffold. The teams changed in portables. Check out this link to see photos of them "building" their "stadium" (http://www.13thman.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36338). I really don't understand the hate on for BMO. If you have ever gone to any away games and see the other stadiums prior to our build, our stadium was really nice. Crew Stadium is....well it was the first ever SSS so I give it that. All the other stadiums are too big and cavernous for MLS (ie. Gillette Stadium, Giants Stadium, even RFK). Sure now we are getting nicer stadiums being built. Same goes with everything. Look at kits, boots, balls, etc. Everything changes for the better.

Also it's not MLSE's fault on design. I thank God MLSE stepped up. If it wasn't for those "idiots," there would be no TFC. Sure they have made some horrid football decisions but hey, that conversation does not belong in this thread.

[David_Oliveira]

In response to some people wondering why the Argos would want to move. It's really a simple one. They want full control of concessions and ticket revenue; something they don't have at Rogers.

edit: There is nothing in any article that says that but all that info comes from my research for my C.E.T. Technical Report (Chose to do a feasibility study/building of a new stadium for the Argos). I have spoken to various people within the organization and that is what they told me

[PopePouri]

The CSA, MLSE and Argos should partner up and build a state-of-the-art stadium with removable grass like Veltins-Arena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veltins-Arena

[Fort York Redcoat]

^Nice stadium but I think we'd need to attract 50k to a game to make it worth it.

[PopePouri]

^Nice stadium but I think we'd need to attract 50k to a game to make it worth it.

They can have a similar setup in the BC Place stadium where they block out the upper stand.

[ag futbol]

I think when it comes down to it, MLSE and the people who run TFC know the value of having a SSS (or at least one that is free of football markings and has grass). They aren't going to let the CFL step on their business and will put up a fight.

I think either way fans shouldn't be complacent, but I have confidence we aren't going to be disposed so easily. BMO field has major obstacles for a CFL team to move in. It's not just about one grand-stand, it's about sideline space, locker-room space, and a whole bunch of other things. Basically the place needs to be entirely torn down and rebuilt if it's going to be used for CFL football. Not only that but in terms of total amount of times the facility is used for soccer (CSA matches, friendlies, etc...) it makes more sense to continue in that direction rather than allow one football team in to play a handful of games a year.

Maybe long-run something like Veltins is the answer. Seattle draws 40k a game, if TFC was run properly, I think it could as well. All the teams could fit in one facility happily, but it will take some time... Argos will need a better financial backer as well, because the elephant in the room for their team is that ownership hasn't shown commitment to spending on a stadium or doesn't have the money.

[Fort York Redcoat]

They can have a similar setup in the BC Place stadium where they block out the upper stand.

Not attractive and a waste of $$ IMO.

[Blizzard]

With most NFL teams and the old NASL teams who have used baseball parks for home games-- they have to play over a dirt infield or you put into temp grass that never matches up.

Real sexy that.

Beyond the visual esthetics, it is dangerous and bad for the quality of play.

[Toronto]

Really?? Did you ever go there?? It was a glorified scaffold. The teams changed in portables. Check out this link to see photos of them "building" their "stadium" (http://www.13thman.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36338). I really don't understand the hate on for BMO. If you have ever gone to any away games and see the other stadiums prior to our build, our stadium was really nice. Crew Stadium is....well it was the first ever SSS so I give it that. All the other stadiums are too big and cavernous for MLS (ie. Gillette Stadium, Giants Stadium, even RFK). Sure now we are getting nicer stadiums being built. Same goes with everything. Look at kits, boots, balls, etc. Everything changes for the better.

Also it's not MLSE's fault on design. I thank God MLSE stepped up. If it wasn't for those "idiots," there would be no TFC. Sure they have made some horrid football decisions but hey, that conversation does not belong in this thread.

If not for the FREE stadium MLSE doesn't step up. That's the truth. In 15 years without another government welfare check, do you think they'll ever replace it? I doubt it. And OHHHH no the team changed in portables? Our team this should have been forced to change in port o potties. Aanyway, it's been open a mere 8 years and it's already 40 years behind.

[boban]

It was the CSA under Kevan Pipe that designed the stadium and set the budget. ML$E had nothing to do with the design or costing. ML$E was brought in later as a partner after the Argos bailed, and oversaw construction (on time and on budget, btw), but was forced to take the already designed stadium. What ML$E did afterwards was add some washrooms and concessions, and build 1 new stand plus some table seating, all at their expense with no city or CSA help, even though they don't own the place. Sorry, you can fault them for a lot of things, but not the stadium.

In 2007, BMO Field was way better than the pointy ball and baseball stadiums where most MLS teams played at the time. It was even better than the Krew's SSS. It only looks cheap by today's standards.

No offence Oldtime but your post here is classic revisionist history .. its a total and utter lie.
The CSA was looking to build a $80 million dollar stadium on the grounds and was looking for a partner - from Argos at York, to MLSE and Argos at Varsity and finally settling with MLSE. And the budget was set by MLSE. The CSA had $35 mil from the prov and feds in thier back pocket, but no more $$$. It was MLSE who set the budget as they did not want to spend more than $8mil. There was another 10 mil from the city and $0 mil from stadium naming rights.. It was also MLSE who designed the stadium. CSA had nothing to do with it. MLSE latched onto the government handout to finance the stadium and limit their own funds. Their risk was minimized. So you can fault them for the stadium ;).

[Oldtimer]

No offence Oldtime but your post here is classic revisionist history .. its a total and utter lie.


No offense boban, but it's not "revisionist," this was my understanding at the time. In fact, what I understood was that the decision to drop a roof was a CSA revision to the original plan. If you are going to call this a "lie," you need to provide some proof (links?).

[Shakes McQueen]

If not for the FREE stadium MLSE doesn't step up. That's the truth. In 15 years without another government welfare check, do you think they'll ever replace it? I doubt it. And OHHHH no the team changed in portables? Our team this should have been forced to change in port o potties. Aanyway, it's been open a mere 8 years and it's already 40 years behind.

It really should be noted in this conversation, that virtually every sports team owner on this continent follows the same playbook when it comes to getting a new stadium. That doesn't make it right, but it isn't unique either. They all beg for tax breaks, and deals on the land, and to put in as little of their own money as possible. In the best cases, they get most of the revenue from events and concessions, without even actually owning the place.

Honestly, while I wish BMO was nicer, from a business prudence perspective, I get why they went as cheap as possible. They paid an expansion fee for an expansion team in a small, largely unproven (at the time) league, in a sport that had also largely not proven itself in North America, on the professional level.

If I have any frustration, it's with the government who gave them such a sweetheart deal, instead of standing up for their taxpayers. They even let MLSE have the naming-rights money, for crying out loud. The naming rights to a stadium the government technically owns.

As for whether they replace it down the road - that'll depend on how profitable the team is for them at that point, and whether the government at various levels, are willing to make another deal with them. That's the case everywhere. My guess is they will just retrofit it with some new amenities down the road, like a roof, or maybe a second deck of seats all the way around.

- Scott

[Fort York Redcoat]

If a stadium is 40 years behind in 8 years isn't that a compliment to those designing and building them in the last 8 years and not an insult to the 8 year old stadium? The lions share of the fantastic building going on now are established teams finally getting full sized stadiums of their own or new teams that were assured support in a way we weren't assured of here.


People can want a better stadium but it's just not a priority for me.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'd love to have a more fully featured stadium, but BMO will do the job just fine in the meantime. And frankly, I'd rather have our tin can in a great, central location, rather than something more extravagant, but located an hour away from the heart of the city, like the Red Bulls have. Being able to go to the pub for lunch, and then take a streetcar almost to the front gate of the stadium, is fantastic.

I'd like to have a nice roof, but aside from that, I'd guess we are 'stuck" with the tin can for several more years. And outside of mere envy, and the lack of a roof, it largely does the job.

- Scott

[Belfast_Boy]

We all know that the Argos are being tossed from Roger. I was talking to a MLSE employee tonight and he said they are moving to BMO. Taking a couple of things into consideration this has some legs. MLSE dropped our ticket prices and took a large hit. Also in a recent meeting with FO they talked about stadium changes. I think we need to be proactive on this and tell them this is not acceptable. The pitch will be fucked and we will probably end up further away from play. As supporters we need to clear this up and see if its true and try to put a stop to it.

[flatpicker]

On the plus side, we might get our artificial turf back!

[tfc007]

If this true, TFC can say goodbye to me, I am not watching soccer with football lines and plus I am not sitting farther back in the end zone. Fuck That! No fucken way.

[ensco]

I hate to say it, but it's the right thing to do. Who really cares about forcing TFC to play a couple of games a year on turf that has been destroyed or replaced, other than a few hundred supporters?

BMO is seriously underutilized and is in a prime location. Spending $10M or whatever to renovate BMO to accomodate football is smarter than building a new stadium somewhere.

But it would certainly be the final nail in the coffin of our original TFC dream, the one that we few here have anyways. Truth be told, that coffin is nailed pretty tight already.

They'll just move the supporters en masse to the north end, I think.

[Jack]

Yeah, if they do this, I think it would be just enough for me to not renew.

[denime]

We all know that the Argos are being tossed from Roger. I was talking to a MLSE employee tonight and he said they are moving to BMO. Taking a couple of things into consideration this has some legs. MLSE dropped our ticket prices and took a large hit. Also in a recent meeting with FO they talked about stadium changes. I think we need to be proactive on this :facepalm:and tell them this is not acceptable. The pitch will be fucked and we will probably end up further away from play. As supporters we need to clear this up and see if its true and try to put a stop to it.

We should do FUCK ALL,that what we should do.

ENOUGH of this proactive shit fighting with FO,protesting,and what not.

Once they announce officially Argos move to BMO, something that will not happened since BMO Field would need to extend 25 meters on each side,north to Food Building,south up to the street,and 2 years they were talking about move bill was $25 millions,last time I checked prices went up in last 2 years.

CFL already stated that Argos can not play on smaller field,so how about we go to game and support the team instead of being proactive pain in the ass to our FO.

FO has more important things to do than deal with few unhappy supporters complaints,I rather have KP looking after new players and ways to improve the team instead dealing with our "problems",banner messages and other nonsense that was brought to them in last couple of months when they were trying to sign players.

[ensco]

^I think they'll accept the narrow field. They just need to blast south, maybe move the road, and that's it.

[Abou Sky]

In Arizona, they move the entire field outdoor to grow.

They can put the south stand on wheels and move it back and forth.

Also, using the right grass combination along with patches can make it work.

I guess people are going to have to see it to believe it but it can be done.

[Huyton]

In Houston they manage to have an NCAA pointyball team and the Houston Dynamo share a Bermuda grass field. Or perhaps they can put rolls of field turf over our grass for CFL games.

As for the stadium itself, perhaps moving us to a rebuilt North Stand with a roof and general admission would be OK.

[cincy]

I thought there was an MLS mandate to have Soccer Specific Stadiums, they can't be happy with this talk ?

[denime]

^I think they'll accept the narrow field. They just need to blast south, maybe move the road, and that's it.

They can't offset the field only on one side,than mid of the west/east stands will be 50 meters off.BMO field is not only narrow it is 30 yards short PER SIDE,in order to get it done properly NORTH and SOUTH stands must be moved and rebuild.

As far the comments about moving field moving in/out,that is done in closed venues like Rogers Centre,not open air stadiums,not the mention extra space you need to move it out.

[Abou Sky]

Denime, it can be done, I don't think it will, but it can.

There is a whole bunch of land at Cherry between Commisioners and Unwin that was going to be used for sports facilities which got scrapped.

You can put the Argos there, it is accessible by DVP and Gardiner, they can run lots of busses on game day and plenty of room for parking.

[69Chevy396]

MLS governors would force relocation to A US city before this happens. Soccer specific stadiums are a condition of acceptance into the league. And with the predictable mediocrity of all things MLSE, league market researchers must be scratching their heads wondering what the future will be for a Toronto based team. Not only do we draw fewer and fewer fans each year to BMO, the team remains a horrible road draw. Jeez, if MLSE is losing money now, imagine playing tuesdaor friday night games in the future to accomodate the argos.

[Redcoe15]

They fucking better not do this! Fuck the argos! They had their chance, and went for the cheap easy way out with skydome! Let some suburb build them their own fucking stadium!

[jloome]

Yeah, if they do this, I think it would be just enough for me to not renew.

This would kill TFC's future.

We're not Houston or Dallas. One of the reasons it worked in Toronto is because it's a fairly sophisticated footy audience. Has to be a SSS or nothing.

THey might be dumb enough to do it, but if they do, TFC will turn into the Lynx. MLS just isn't the NBA or NHL yet. It can't survive on the casual dollar, it needs atmosphere to draw people. All soccer does in North America, really.

They're probably looking at Seattle, but Seattle is starved for pro options, and largely based its model on what we were doing at the time. They haven't had a SSS and grass; if they had, you can be damn sure they wouldn't quietly accept going back.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Downsview. the city doesn't own it and many Argos fans would prefer that locale anyway. Make it a gridiron specific stadium possible for expansion. I'd like to state I think it's more proactive to offer an alternative opportunity than to just say "don't do something". Resistance is not enough.

The Jays want grass in 2015. They won't let the Argos play on it.

[TFC07]

If Jays go with grass at Rogers centre, would this mean that TFC would play more games at Rogers centre? Since we're owned by Rogers now, you would think we might be moving to Rogers centre to fill in when Jays aren't playing. It makes sense for both sides. If we're force to share with Argos, then I could see TFC moving to Rogers Centre when they get grass.

[TFC07]

We all know that the Argos are being tossed from Roger. I was talking to a MLSE employee tonight and he said they are moving to BMO. Taking a couple of things into consideration this has some legs. MLSE dropped our ticket prices and took a large hit. Also in a recent meeting with FO they talked about stadium changes. I think we need to be proactive on this and tell them this is not acceptable. The pitch will be fucked and we will probably end up further away from play. As supporters we need to clear this up and see if its true and try to put a stop to it.

Who is going to be paying for rebuilding BMO field for Argos? City of Toronto? No! Argos? No!

TFC? Hell No! So this doesn't make any sense since there's no one out there willing to rebuild BMO field for Argos.

Stadium changes are probably about getting a roof than anything else. I was asked on survey recently sent by TFC about what changes I would like to see at BMO field to improve my game day experience.

[glaze]

Glad to see a thread about this, as it is a TFC issue. The CFL teams have a good tv deal and make money. The player salaries are fairly low. The league just lacks strong ownership. Having the same owner for toronto and bc is a problem they want fixed. I can see MLSE picking up the team for a discount.
I think MLSE would try grass for a year then go to turf. They're likely looking at Vancouver and saying it works for them.
It's a bad situation but I think it's inevitable.

[SoccMan2]

If this happens say goodbye to me ( season Ticket holder since day 1) I would not go to one game, I hope they fold if this happens, could you imagine, the Impact playing in their own soccer stadium and even the Whitecaps will eventualy get their own soccer stadium but TFC sharing a stadium with a CFL football team, wow. MLSE you want to nail the final coffin in something you have managed to fuck up well then go ahead and make this move and kiss your once money making adventure bye bye!

[Fort York Redcoat]

If Jays go with grass at Rogers centre, would this mean that TFC would play more games at Rogers centre? Since we're owned by Rogers now, you would think we might be moving to Rogers centre to fill in when Jays aren't playing. It makes sense for both sides. If we're force to share with Argos, then I could see TFC moving to Rogers Centre when they get grass.

No. Rogers Centre will be used for the first game of the year until we get winterized. The Jays don't want anything but baseball on that grass.


Who is going to be paying for rebuilding BMO field for Argos? City of Toronto? No! Argos? No!

TFC? Hell No! So this doesn't make any sense since there's no one out there willing to rebuild BMO field for Argos.

Stadium changes are probably about getting a roof than anything else. I was asked on survey recently sent by TFC about what changes I would like to see at BMO field to improve my game day experience.

MLSE. They will pay for a refurbishing if it means 2 of their teams play out of it. A roof is important to us but it's not required for a refurbish. I'm sure a roof and other consolations for support would be built in to ease the transition. Eg. All fans relocated in a GA with a roof and capo stands, possible standing area, possible flare area, all these things to mask sugarcoat the fact we stadium share with gridiron and are no longer an SSS.

[TFC07]

MLSE. They will pay for a refurbishing if it means 2 of their teams play out of it. A roof is important to us but it's not required for a refurbish. I'm sure a roof and other consolations for support would be built in to ease the transition. Eg. All fans relocated in a GA with a roof and capo stands, possible standing area, possible flare area, all these things to mask sugarcoat the fact we stadium share with gridiron and are no longer an SSS.

I highly doubt TFC FO is crazy enough to believe we will forget about Argos playing at BMO field while building a roof for supporters. Besides, how exactly does MLSE benefit from having Argos at BMO field? Argos aren't worth $15-20 million investment IMO. They actually left Exhibition grounds because bad weather, now they're coming back especially when their season ticket holders and CFL FO rejected move to BMO field in the past? Besides, why would Argos want to play second fiddle to TFC?

Rumours have it that Argos looking to move to downsview or eastern part of 905 region. I am sure if BMO field was considered, then we will hear more about it from their end.

[TFC07]

No. Rogers Centre will be used for the first game of the year until we get winterized. The Jays don't want anything but baseball on that grass.


By having a grass turf, Rogers are losing money because they will lose a lot of tenants and events because grass turf. So they need other events (like soccer) to make up lost revenue. Blue Jays alone (especially a bad Blue Jays team) isn't going to make a lot of money for Rogers.

It's not a smart investment to have grass turf for Blue Jays alone. They need to make up lost revenue somehow. TFC is easiest solution to make up that lost revenue.

[Masked Man]

I'm all for the Argos getting their own stadium. The city should just stop being cheap & pony up the money to build it. They spent for baseball, soccer(so MLSE who had the money to build it themselves could have a team) & countless other facilities but you aren't going to spend on the Argos? This move the Argos to BMO idea just reeks of laziness & poor planning on the city's part. If they were going to be apart of the BMO field project, the time to do that was when the stadium WAS BEING BUILT, not after the stadium goes up.

[TFC07]

I'm all for the Argos getting their own stadium. The city should just stop being cheap & pony up the money to build it. They spent for baseball, soccer(so MLSE who had the money to build it themselves could have a team) & countless other facilities but you aren't going to spend on the Argos? This move the Argos to BMO idea just reeks of laziness & poor planning on the city's part. If they were going to be apart of the BMO field project, the time to do that was when the stadium WAS BEING BUILT, not after the stadium goes up.

Actually, you have to blame Argos the most. They are too cheap to build their own stadium so they're back riding on Blue Jays and now TFC. Argos could have their own stadiums in the past, but they decided to be cheap which is now hurting them and their fanbase. I usually support all Toronto based teams, but I wouldn't feel too bad if Argos left Toronto due to their cheapness and laziness.

EDIT: MLSE actually should be praised since they saved pro soccer. Without them, we wouldn't have a pro team and BMO field. Originally, York University Stadium was going to be build for Argos and CSA (Canada soccer and plus for FIFA Under 20 world cup), but Argos pulled out last minute and decided to stay with Rogers Centre which had CSA, City, Province and federal government running around looking for a stadium for FIFA Under 20. That is when MLSE stepped up and offer solution which became BMO field.

[Masked Man]

EDIT: MLSE actually should be praised since they saved pro soccer. Without them, we wouldn't have a pro team and BMO field. Originally, York University Stadium was going to be build for Argos and CSA (Canada soccer and plus for FIFA Under 20 world cup), but Argos pulled out last minute and decided to stay with Rogers Centre which had CSA, City, Province and federal government running around looking for a stadium for FIFA Under 20. That is when MLSE stepped up and offer solution which became BMO field.

It was actually York University that pulled out of the project. MLSE spent 8 million on the construction of the stadium & another 10 million so they could get the naming rights which they sold for 27 million to BMO. In the end they made 9 million dollars off the whole thing. They made 9 million dollars & got a stadium that was majorly funded by various levels of government so spare me the MLSE hero worship.

MLSE could have very easily have built their own BMO field, just like they did with Air Canada Centre. The Argos were the ones that needed a publicly funded stadium & still do.

[TFC Kevin]

I don't know much about this entire situation but can't the Argos move into a university stadium/field kinda like how the Als play in McGill's stadium?

[Huyton]

It was actually York University that pulled out of the project. MLSE spent 8 million on the construction of the stadium & another 10 million so they could get the naming rights which they sold for 27 million to BMO. In the end they made 9 million dollars off the whole thing. They made 9 million dollars & got a stadium that was majorly funded by various levels of government so spare me the MLSE hero worship.

MLSE could have very easily have built their own BMO field, just like they did with Air Canada Centre. The Argos were the ones that needed a publicly funded stadium & still do.

From http://news.yorku.ca/2005/05/12/statement-on-stadium-construction-at-york-university/
Statement on Stadium Construction at York UniversityTORONTO, May 12, 2005 -- York University regrets to announce that the recent withdrawal from the stadium project by the Argos has made it impossible for us to proceed with the construction of a stadium that would be suitable both for the York community and for the FIFA soccer tournament in time for 2007. The timeline established in October 2004, for a project involving York University, the Argos and the Canadian Soccer Association was a feasible proposition. Until three weeks ago, we were proceeding on time and on budget, despite very tight timelines.

[Dave67]

lol - people must be looking for something to get wound up about today.. A guy talked to a guy... No offense to the original poster.

[Huyton]

I don't know much about this entire situation but can't the Argos move into a university stadium/field kinda like how the Als play in McGill's stadium?

There is a new track and field stadium being built at York for the Pan Am games.

However, considering how the Argos screwed York in 2005, I can just imagine what their response would have been to an approach by the Argos to be tenants of a larger stadium.

If the Argos were owned by MLSE, however, it might be worthwhile to have the new York U stadium expanded to accomodate them.

This would then give MLSE pointyball rights in Toronto, and may allow them to bring in an NFL team without the Argos complaining.

[CFL]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.

And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO.

[TFC07]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.

And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO.

BMO field belongs to soccer especially how Argos baited and almost killed FIFA Under 20 world cup for Toronto. TFC/MLSE did contribute to construction of BMO field and responsible of operating BMO field behalf on City of Toronto (which they are making money thanks to TFC/Soccer). So they do play a role who can use BMO field or not.

Why did Argos baited on York University? Why aren't Argos willing to contribute money to building their stadium? City of Toronto isn't going to contribute much, so it has to be Argos themselves have to pony up the cash to make investment.

Why Blue Jays kicking Argos out of their stadium once they make the switch to grass? (I will give you a clue: football will ruin grass turf and it will be costly to repair it everytime which Rogers isn't willing to do).

Reality is that Argos cheapness and laziness is finally caught on and their fans and current owner is paying for it. Argos made their bed and eventually they will sleep in couple of years once Jays change their turf. I personally hope Argos find a new home as long it isn't BMO field which was built for soccer not football.

[Bantamfan]

I think it is kinda funny. The blue jays won't let the Argos play on their new grass field because they will ruin it yet TFC will have to accept the Argos playing on their grass field. Won't the Argos ruin our field? What is good for the jays has to good for TFC

[TFC07]

I think it is kinda funny. The blue jays won't let the Argos play on their new grass field because they will ruin it yet TFC will have to accept the Argos playing on their grass field. Won't the Argos ruin our field? What is good for the jays has to good for TFC

True. Having Argos playing on your grass field is going to be costly expense. I wonder if Argos are willing to pay repair cost for grass after every time they play on it.

[OgtheDim]

We all know that the Argos are being tossed from Roger. I was talking to a MLSE employee tonight ..........


I read that, and my first thought was, "I wonder if its the same person that was welcoming Forlan?"


Sorry, but not going to base discussing this on one MLSE employee's opinion. All the particulars of why this makes no sense were discussed in the roof thread.

[prizby]

MLS governors would force relocation to A US city before this happens. Soccer specific stadiums are a condition of acceptance into the league.

Seattle, Vancouver...

[prizby]

IF, the Argos come, the only way i will keep seasons is if the seats are moved as close to the field as they are now, we have a GA section where flares and smoke are allowed; else i'll be a single game buyer once or twice a year and watch from home.

[SoccMan2]

Hey" CFL" I hate the Argos I wish they would fold today not tomorrow, and I also hate the CFL. I could care less about the Argos and the CFL. How do you like them apples "CFL". "CFL" this is a TFC message board I'm sure your beloved Argos have a forum similar to this one, go there and stay there. Read my lips 'CFL" keep your Argos out of BMO field, find another stadium, how about Lamport. We don't want the Argos at BMO what do you not understand.

[Huyton]

I don't think it's a matter of ruining the grass at SkyDome, it's more the idea of what you have to do to change the configuration of the stadium. Once grass is down and there's a dirt infield, you'll have to lower the pitchers mound, fill in the infield (or just the base paths), and then create put more grass down after moving the seats. Of course, this assumes that the seats will be movable after the conversion to grass; they may not be, in which case, you won't be able to convert to CFL anyway, because the field won't fit.

It's possible to put a soccer field into a baseball stadium. Both Fenway Park and Yankee Stadium have recently hosted Association Football teams, but a CFL field is considerably larger, and I don't think it will fit across the outfield.

[Cashcleaner]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.

And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO.


BMO field belongs to soccer especially how Argos baited and almost killed FIFA Under 20 world cup for Toronto. TFC/MLSE did contribute to construction of BMO field and responsible of operating BMO field behalf on City of Toronto (which they are making money thanks to TFC/Soccer). So they do play a role who can use BMO field or not.

Why did Argos baited on York University? Why aren't Argos willing to contribute money to building their stadium? City of Toronto isn't going to contribute much, so it has to be Argos themselves have to pony up the cash to make investment.

Why Blue Jays kicking Argos out of their stadium once they make the switch to grass? (I will give you a clue: football will ruin grass turf and it will be costly to repair it everytime which Rogers isn't willing to do).

Reality is that Argos cheapness and laziness is finally caught on and their fans and current owner is paying for it. Argos made their bed and eventually they will sleep in couple of years once Jays change their turf. I personally hope Argos find a new home as long it isn't BMO field which was built for soccer not football.

Actually, the blame really can be shared in this situation. MLSE could have easily fronted all the dough and had a stadium built the way they wanted and with them having total control over the property and who gets to play there - but they didn't. This is why the team had to make do with turf for the first few years, why public sports groups and organizations were mandated a certain amount of usage every month, and why any change took so long to come by - the city had to approve all of it as per the team's agreement.

Montreal's Stade Saputo, an arguably better stadium than BMO Field is, was built with very limited public funds and the Impact can pretty much do whatever it pleases because Joey Saputo put his own money down on it and got some other interested investors to foot the bill.

[Mark in Ottawa]

If this ever happened I guess the first thing to do would be to take down the "Canadian National Soccer Stadium" plaque.
I also thought that the only MLS teams allowed to play in non soccer specific stadium settings were those "grandfathered" in.
O well ... time will tell ... I have heard so many rumours about this franchise over the years I have just stopped listening to idle speculation.

[Fort York Redcoat]

By having a grass turf, Rogers are losing money because they will lose a lot of tenants and events because grass turf. So they need other events (like soccer) to make up lost revenue. Blue Jays alone (especially a bad Blue Jays team) isn't going to make a lot of money for Rogers.

It's not a smart investment to have grass turf for Blue Jays alone. They need to make up lost revenue somehow. TFC is easiest solution to make up that lost revenue.

They are not worried about revenue. Hence the crazy spending last off season. Rogers is pouring money into the Jayss and all those free days can go to concerts. They don't need a tenant.

[Redcoe15]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.

And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO.

:troll:

[Fort York Redcoat]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.

And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO.

Wembley is a full time NFL stadium? Your comparison of MLSE contributing to BMO field to the Argos zero contribution to there own stadium is laughable. They've been so poor they chose to be rent free at the Dome over spending money to have a stadium at York.

Pathetic.

[Redcoe15]

Toronto's situation is not like Houston's. You can easily fit a American rules football field onto a soccer pitch without ruining the sightlines for soccer. But a Canadian rules football field needs an expanded field that will definetly cut into the soccer sightlines. It will benefit Canadian football, but not soccer. Which is why I say FUCK THE ARGOS!

[denime]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.


And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO:picard:.

Yes BMO can host NFL game,but neither BMO or Wembley can host CFL.


CFL field of play is 110 yards 10 yards longer than NFL;
CFL field end zone is 20 yards deep,10 yards deeper than NFL.

That's 30 yards extra and MAIN reason why CFL FO did not approve and will never approve Argos to play at BMO.


This thread will be merged will other Argos thread.

[denime]

Merged

[Yohan]

I love how CFL seems to think govt has some sort of duty to fund Argos stadium. And the likelihood is that Argos don't want to pay a cent for renovation.

[CFL]

Hey" CFL" I hate the Argos I wish they would fold today not tomorrow, and I also hate the CFL. I could care less about the Argos and the CFL. How do you like them apples "CFL". "CFL" this is a TFC message board I'm sure your beloved Argos have a forum similar to this one, go there and stay there. Read my lips 'CFL" keep your Argos out of BMO field, find another stadium, how about Lamport. We don't want the Argos at BMO what do you not understand.

When MLSE buys BMO outright, you may have a point. But renters can't be choosey. And what you want, doesn't matter. It's what the best return for the city is. So if that's 11 International Rugby games, 10 CFL games and 18 MLS games and 4 retro 80 disco nights, so be it.

This wouldn't happen in Montreal as Saputo owns the stadium. Half of the MLS stadium built have fucking stages at one end for rock shows. The Fire has a promotion night were people could bring their dogs to the game, afterwards they were allowed on the pitch to take shits on it. Why? cause it's about the bottom line.

[CFL]

I love how CFL seems to think govt has some sort of duty to fund Argos stadium. And the likelihood is that Argos don't want to pay a cent for renovation.

Unlike TFC's owners did in 2005 when BMO was being financed . How much did the province and city put into again? MLSE was all like "NO NO we'll pay for it ourselves!" haha

[CFL]

Wembley is a full time NFL stadium? Your comparison of MLSE contributing to BMO field to the Argos zero contribution to there own stadium is laughable. They've been so poor they chose to be rent free at the Dome over spending money to have a stadium at York.

Pathetic.

The St Louis rams almost moved there. They play two NFL games every year and countless Rugby games. The idea that BMO is hollowed ground is laughable. That's my point. It hasn't even hosted a play-off game yet. Hey-- maybe that the TFC curse, the stadia.

[TFC07]

They are not worried about revenue. Hence the crazy spending last off season. Rogers is pouring money into the Jayss and all those free days can go to concerts. They don't need a tenant.

That's because they're trying to win which will create more revenue. I am sure it has paid off since their attendance record for this season has been good compare to their past years.

Their crazy offseason spending was an investment in the end. When the Jays aren't playing (or during the winter), Rogers isn't going to sit back and let Rogers Centre sit there empty. They will need something to fill in to maximize their investment (turf). Soccer is perfect solution for that!

This is why I wouldn't be surprised to see more soccer games at Rogers centre once they change their turf.

[Rudi]

Unlike TFC's owners did in 2005 when BMO was being financed . How much did the province and city put into again? MLSE was all like "NO NO we'll pay for it ourselves!" haha
Dude, stop trolling.

MLSE/TFC in 2005 were taking a HUGE gamble on MLS as the league itself was nowhere near what it is today. They took the "cheap" route due to various cirumcustances (not the least of which was the fact that the stadium needed to be done in a ridiculously tight timeline for the U20 WC after the Argos screwed York University on the original stadium deal at the 11th hour).

In the time since then, TFC has shown itself to by financially viable and the team has put more of its own money into BMO Field (and into the Kia Training Ground, which is also used by the CSA), all while the Argos have continued their 100-year tradition of not spending a single red cent on infrastructure.

I have nothing against the Argos. In fact, I have friends in their front office. But your attempts to draw a parallel between MLSE and the Argos ownerships are transparent and misleading.

[Rudi]

MLSE. They will pay for a refurbishing if it means 2 of their teams play out of it. A roof is important to us but it's not required for a refurbish. I'm sure a roof and other consolations for support would be built in to ease the transition. Eg. All fans relocated in a GA with a roof and capo stands, possible standing area, possible flare area, all these things to mask sugarcoat the fact we stadium share with gridiron and are no longer an SSS.
If this were the case, why didn't MLSE do this three years ago when they were plowing their own money into stadium renos? The Argos have been available for a song for a number of years, so what's different now?

BMO Field doesn't need more tenants to be financially viable. The plan for the stadium since MLSE took it over was always to have TFC as the sole permanent tenant along with supplemental events from the CSA (and one-offs like concerts, which aside from that lone Genesis event in 2007 proved to be a total non-starter).

The stadium is profitable now and will remain so with TFC as the lone tenant. The CSA will increase its number of events next year, and Rugby Canada will continue to schedule 2-3 matches per year as that organization is over the moon with the (unexpected) availability of a modern natural grass facility in the country's largest city.

[prizby]

Hey. When you use a public facility, this is what happens. MLSE should invest in their own facility. If the Argos are cheap for not building there own stadium, then so is TFC. The idea that BMO belongs to TFC is laughable. It doesn't. It belongs to the people of Toronto. Put 30 million bucks into the place and it would finally lose it's high school stigma and be a better place to watch soccer as well. As for people bringing the past into it, it's all water under the bridge. What matters is what happens going forward. As said before, Houston shares a grass field with college football and on grass the lines are put on and washed off. And the NFL is never coming to Toronto. You'd need a new 70 plus thousand stadium and London is way up the chart in terms of getting an NFL team than anyone else.

And if Wembley can host a full time NFL team, so can BMO.

but we are talking CFL...and lets look at this another way; who outside of MLSE is going to pay to renovate BMO Field? The city won't; they don't have money; the Argos won't; they are too cheap


The St Louis rams almost moved there. They play two NFL games every year and countless Rugby games. The idea that BMO is hollowed ground is laughable. That's my point. It hasn't even hosted a play-off game yet. Hey-- maybe that the TFC curse, the stadia.

no they don't play 2 games there every year; they don't even play 1 ever year...and the only rugby games being played at wembley are during the rugby world cup (2 games); all other major ones including the rugby world cup final are played at Twickenham

[Fort York Redcoat]

If this were the case, why didn't MLSE do this three years ago when they were plowing their own money into stadium renos? The Argos have been available for a song for a number of years, so what's different now?

BMO Field doesn't need more tenants to be financially viable. The plan for the stadium since MLSE took it over was always to have TFC as the sole permanent tenant along with supplemental events from the CSA (and one-offs like concerts, which aside from that lone Genesis event in 2007 proved to be a total non-starter).

The stadium is profitable now and will remain so with TFC as the lone tenant. The CSA will increase its number of events next year, and Rugby Canada will continue to schedule 2-3 matches per year as that organization is over the moon with the (unexpected) availability of a modern natural grass facility in the country's largest city.

Rudi I agree with you. It's viable, we can remain the lone tenant. That's not what's changed.

I hope you're right.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The St Louis rams almost moved there. They play two NFL games every year and countless Rugby games. The idea that BMO is hollowed ground is laughable. That's my point. It hasn't even hosted a play-off game yet. Hey-- maybe that the TFC curse, the stadia.

That is an incredibly weak point. I heard the Gretzky was almost on the Leafs. Hallowed is laughable? Support has more attachement to that young stadium than your Argos have had since the Ex before the Jays. The fact that you think it has to with what other fans of other sports think instead of ownership and their own support is making you sound uninformed.

You're getting close to trolling. If you want to make comparisons remember where you are.

[Ivy]

I have friends that play for Argos, and they tell me first hand that the team is CHEAP. They don't want to pay for anything, and a Argos specific stadium is no different. They will jump onto anything that has grass and 100(whatever it is) yards. Rob Ford is their biggest advocate, and will push to get them into any stadium before the end of his term.
This has nothing to do with BMO field being profitable or not - it's about the Argos being homeless, and the city looking for anywhere to put them.

[Yagbod]

There is more to this than a 'guy talking to a guy'. I know of two sources who have more of less confirmed that this is looking inevitable if not done already.

I won't out them, I'll leave that to themselves. I didn't think it was possible or feasible either but it looks like it is. Lets hope this is much ado about nothing and the people I trust are wrong.

[TFC07]

I have friends that play for Argos, and they tell me first hand that the team is CHEAP. They don't want to pay for anything, and a Argos specific stadium is no different. They will jump onto anything that has grass and 100(whatever it is) yards. Rob Ford is their biggest advocate, and will push to get them into any stadium before the end of his term.
This has nothing to do with BMO field being profitable or not - it's about the Argos being homeless, and the city looking for anywhere to put them.

This is why Argos are failing in Toronto despite being a championship team. They're too cheap and don't belong in a market like Toronto where there's a lot of competition for $$$$.

They need new owners or league to step in to fund their stadium. Argos and CFL fans need to understand that having 100 years in history doesn't mean anything in the end if you can't make investment into your team. It's not Toronto, TFC, Blue Jays or Rogers fault that Argos aren't doing a good job. It's Argos themselves that need to be blamed for their issues. Time for them to become responsible and invest in their team properly instead of being cheap and lazy while pointing fingers at others for their incompetence.

[TFC07]

There is more to this than a 'guy talking to a guy'. I know of two sources who have more of less confirmed that this is looking inevitable if not done already.

I won't out them, I'll leave that to themselves. I didn't think it was possible or feasible either but it looks like it is. Lets hope this is much ado about nothing and the people I trust are wrong.

Oh great, now more drama in the off-season for us.

[flatpicker]

There is more to this than a 'guy talking to a guy'. I know of two sources who have more of less confirmed that this is looking inevitable if not done already.

I won't out them, I'll leave that to themselves. I didn't think it was possible or feasible either but it looks like it is. Lets hope this is much ado about nothing and the people I trust are wrong.


Oh great, now more drama in the off-season for us.

And people will be wearing out their F5 key again to see if the Argos have unpacked their bags at BMO yet.

[prizby]

I have friends that play for Argos, and they tell me first hand that the team is CHEAP. They don't want to pay for anything, and a Argos specific stadium is no different. They will jump onto anything that has grass and 100(whatever it is) yards. Rob Ford is their biggest advocate, and will push to get them into any stadium before the end of his term.
This has nothing to do with BMO field being profitable or not - it's about the Argos being homeless, and the city looking for anywhere to put them.

outside of MLSE, who is going to pay to renovate BMO Field?

[OgtheDim]

There is more to this than a 'guy talking to a guy'. I know of two sources who have more of less confirmed that this is looking inevitable if not done already.

...

A few things:

Given this is a city matter, nothing should be accepted as happening until council decides. I've heard these "inevitable" things before......Doug Ford's talk of ferris wheels and monorails come to mind. As does about 6-10 other things the Ford's have been working on. Another example, the whole discussion of the Island airport expansion, which DeLuce thought was such a slam dunk he ordered the planes - well that is 50/50, at best.


MLSE individuals can talk all they want.

Ford can talk all he wants.

As a follower of city politics, I can tell you this, any decision about BMO has to make financial sense to the city councillors; Ford's opinion means little. Ultimately, it is city council who will decide what to do with that stadium.

And, no way the city are going to spend the money to rebuild that stadium just so the Argos can play somewhere.

People have to get it through their heads that the current stadium can not hold a CFL length field even if they blow up the south end. All stands but the East side would have to be rebuilt.
Do people know how EXPENSIVE that is? You are talking + $100 million. Does anybody seriously think the city or MLSE are going to spend that money?

Secondly, MLSE knows darn well that there is more potential in TFC then in the Argos. They will not shit the nest by doing anything stupid like putting turf back in for the sake of the Argos and to be a concert competitor with their own venue at ACC. Nor will they really destroy the potential of TFC by putting the fans back 30 yards from the goals. Lieweke is not that stupid. He knows that the bigger money is found in building a venue that enhances supporter culture, not destroys it.

What are MLSE more likely to do?

Buy the Argos. Build a stadium/ concert venue at Downsview where they have exclusive stadium rights.

The only reason they won't let the Argos die is TSN holds the CFL rights and makes a ton of money off of them.


Oh, and another thing, given the ability of Rob and Doug to keep a secret, if this was a done deal, we'd hear more about it by now then a couple of MLSE people at some level saying something and Mark Grimes musing on it.

No, I am pretty darn sure this is as "inevitable" as Forlan coming to us in the 2013 summer transfer window. Yagabod, I get you have sources. I understand that. But, realistically, until somebody says the majority of council is behind this (not just Rob and Doug) and the money is being spent AND MLSE are not fouling up their very lucrative ACC concert venue and lucrative with a lot more potential TFC, for the sake of something not making NEARLY as much money, I don't believe its a done deal by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ivy]

outside of MLSE, who is going to pay to renovate BMO Field?
Nobody, as it should be. The stadium was build for TFC, and should stay for TFC. Nobody other than MLSE should be putting money into it.

[mattsoks]

I honestly hope the Argos sort their field situation out. As someone who has had Argo season tickets in the family dating back to the 60's, it would be great if they finally had a football specific stadium to play in. Rogers Centre has never cut it.

The problem is certainly the ownership group and their inability to properly invest and put up the cash, which is a shame because the Argos have a very long standing tradition in Toronto and I genuinely think all of Toronto should be proud of that, they date back to 1873 and even now, pull 20K plus to home games in the barren and desolate concrete jungle that is Rogers Centre. Give them a football specific stadium at Varsity or Downsview and it will do wonders for them imo. I really don't think a sharing agreement at BMO will work at all, the logistics aren't clear and it'll certainly have a negative effect on the experience of both sets of fans. Toronto needed a soccer specific stadium for so long, and finally we got it after MLSE cut deals and put up their share of the cash, the Argos need to do something similar if they're going to get anything other then a temporary, band-aid solution.

[glaze]

In the early 90 s before they tore down the stadium the Argos threatened to return to CNE. As mentioned before the owners have a long tradition of expecting charity. I think they'll be forced on MLSE and BMO.
The situation is bad for all. Argos fans and players deserve a proper home, and they haven't been vocally calling for BMO.
BMO is our home and just can't be shared with a CFL team. We can't lose our intimacy, or our grass that we pushed hard to get.
Sadly MLSE will make the choice based on numbers and CFL teams do make money. The Argos at BMO would be a success for them, but it would ruin us.

[Richard]

Might as well fold the team if this happens. This I like committing financial suicide. How many STH would walk away if this happened? My bet is a large portion would and if we go back to turf it is game over. I don't know, it seems like there are so many reasons why this cant happen but I feel there is always some form of doubt.

[ensco]

People have to get it through their heads that the current stadium can not hold a CFL length field even if they blow up the south end. All stands but the East side would have to be rebuilt.
Do people know how EXPENSIVE that is? You are talking + $100 million. Does anybody seriously think the city or MLSE are going to spend that money?


This is a ridiculous series of claims.

The real question is whether the Argos, the CFL and TSN can accept a narrow field. If yes, then it can be done for $10M or something like that.

As for who is paying for it, that becomes simpler if the cost is in the area of $10M. The Argos would pay for it (probably indirectly, by signing a long term lease and guarantee a rent stream to the City to pay for it).

The weird dynamic is that the City may want the Argos to be sold to MLSE as part of this (because the risk of MLSE defaulting on the lease is tiny, while that risk of an Argo default is significant).

This is the sort of deal that would be right up Leiweke's alley. I can hardly wait.

[ag futbol]

In the end this city should be big enough to have a venue that supports both teams, but separately.

Destroying TFC and other potential soccer usage of BMO for the sake of helping the Argos not the way to do things.

They should be able to double up with some other natural tenant ( rugby Canada, a university, any number of other things) to create a deal.

[Redcoe15]

Let's just say this happens - and I'm not willing to believe it at this point. Who's fucking idea was this? ML$E's? The CFL's? Mayor Fatfuck Crackwhore? And where the fuck is the money going to come from to "renovate" BMO Field from the ground up?

[denime]

This is a ridiculous series of claims.

The real question is whether the Argos, the CFL and TSN can accept a narrow field. If yes, then it can be done for $10M or something like that.

As for who is paying for it, that becomes simpler if the cost is in the area of $10M. The Argos would pay for it (probably indirectly, by signing a long term lease and guarantee a rent stream to the City to pay for it).

The weird dynamic is that the City may want the Argos to be sold to MLSE as part of this (because the risk of MLSE defaulting on the lease is tiny, while that risk of an Argo default is significant).

This is the sort of deal that would be right up Leiweke's alley. I can hardly wait.





CFL field of play is 110 yards 10 yards longer than NFL/soccer field;
CFL field end zone is 20 yards deep,10 yards deeper than NFL.

$10 Mil. to move North and South stands by 30 meters,maybe 1978 but not in 2013.
2 years ago cost to retrofit BMO for CFL was $25 mil and Argos run away from that idea since it was them to pay for it,what makes you think 2 years later after natural grass worth 4$ mil was put price would be $10?
if nothing else it will be $35 mil.

CFL FO did not allowed them to play in smaller field for the sake of CFL integrity,amount of $$$ needed to retrofit BMO field for CFL is more expensive then building new one for Argos.



before people get all worked out about this,lets just go back to the fact that this whole story is back on our site because "someone from MLSE" talk to someone from TFC supporters in 111,just to be confirmed from another 111 supporter how that was more that just 'guy talking to a guy',really?

No disrespect to any of two posters,maybe there is some waight in that whole 'guy talking to a guy' story,but to me this is more just to kill some free time and get people work out against MLSE /TFC FO,even though they have no say in this even if it is going to happen.

relax,enjoy long weekend

[ensco]

^You don't need to move the north stand. You've said this previously, I don't understand it. They would have a commercial decision to make about whether adding additional seats at the southern end of the east and west sides makes sense. I'm guessing it does, for outdoor hockey. Don't forget about Winter Classic games,that could be real money.

An incremental $5M/year (one Leaf game a year, $100 higher avg ticket price increase for 20000 existing Leaf SSHs, plus $300 for 10000 free-to-sell seats) is potentially available here. That is a huge incentive, $75M in "enterprise value creation" . It makes the whole deal work for MLSE.

I have no idea what the cost is to move the south stand, I was repeating someone else's number. I will accept that it's more than $10M. I don't think it's an order of magnitude more (i.e. $25M). I still think a sufficiently long term lease will pay for it, if that lease is ironclad. MLSE would probably having to kick something in to make it work for City Council (probably something they get back via some obscure provision down the line).

When you look at all the motives, I totally believe that this is a done deal.

[OgtheDim]

This is a ridiculous series of claims.

The real question is whether the Argos, the CFL and TSN can accept a narrow field. If yes, then it can be done for $10M or something like that.



You do understand that the west side stand is centred on what would be about the 25 yard line on a CFL field? And that's even if the CFL accepts the BC Place 20 yard end zone exemption.

[Marc"2L"]

A few things:

People have to get it through their heads that the current stadium can not hold a CFL length field even if they blow up the south end. All stands but the East side would have to be rebuilt.
Do people know how EXPENSIVE that is? You are talking + $100 million. Does anybody seriously think the city or MLSE are going to spend that money

.

That figure is unfortunately in line with what somebody mentioned was the reno cost. The one that would include a roof.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm going to wait for, literally, anything to happen before I start to form an opinion of what specifically is happening.

- Scott

[Couchy81]

But what about 2011?

I have the sinking feeling that this will continue plague BMO for as long as the Argos exist.

damn you and your premonitions

[ensco]

You do understand that the west side stand is centred on what would be about the 25 yard line on a CFL field? And that's even if the CFL accepts the BC Place 20 yard end zone exemption.

Yes. Is it not obvious that extending the west and east stands to the south would move that centerline?

[OgtheDim]

Yes. Is it not obvious that extending the west and east stands to the south would move that centerline?

Which would require a west side reno which alone would cost $50 million. Press Box, seat reno's, luxury suites, expanded fan support infrastructure, football dressing rooms.

Remember, Rob Ford asked the province for $10 million to renovate his semi-pro facility in Etobicoke.

[nfitz]

This wouldn't happen in Montreal as Saputo owns the stadium.A private company owns a stadium in the Olympic park? Hmm, been reading. Apparently so ... the stadium is owned by an organisation called the "Complexe de Soccer Saputo".

That wouldn't happen in Toronto ... mind you a lot of bizarre government dealings in Montreal wouldn't happen in Toronto.

As for the Argos ... is there any confirmation that this is on the table again? Though I don't see why CFL can't change their rules about field size yet again ... it's not like they've changed them before. If it came down to changing the rules again, or walking away from Toronto ... which way would they go. I don't see moving stands is a realistic option at this time. If it came down to that, wouldn't the Argos be better just throwing together a temporary facility like Empire Field for a couple of years in the Portlands? That 27,000+ seat stadium cost less than $15 million.

[prizby]

A MLS team can share a stadium with a college football team because there isn't a lot of crossover in the schedule.

MLS schedule and CFL schedule aren't conducive to sharing a facility.

EDIT: But as long as the Argos are around it will always be an issue. At this rate, the most logical solution for the city and the Argos is to put them at BMO. And I think the odds are pretty good.

who pays for the renovation?

[Fort York Redcoat]

who pays for the renovation?

See above.

MLSE if they want.

The city or province if they want.

Not the Argos because they haven't a dime.

[TFC07]

See above.

MLSE if they want.

The city or province if they want.

Not the Argos because they haven't a dime.

So in other words: no one.

City and Province is broke! Investing into BMO field is last thing they want to do. Plus, Argos don't have political pull to get the government to pay for their stadium (if anything, they lost their opportunity and burn too many bridges in the past to get funds from government) while they don't have enough public support in the city to demand a stadium or move into BMO field.

MLSE have to be crazy to allow Argos to move into BMO field. If anything, I could see MLSE looking to add more hurdles by adding more things to BMO field which it will make it harder for Argos to move it in (like they did by adding north stand).

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense for Argos to move to 905 region and get local cities there to pay for their new stadium.

[Super]

Leiweke already said that he wanted to see improvements at BMO Field. In other words: MLSE will be paying for this. Payne also talked about a roof - which is encouraging as it shows at least ONE person within the MLSE organization understanding the importance of atmosphere (that can be heard outside of 111-113). As it is right now it's BARELY heard even on TV and would probably rank in the bottom 2-3 in the league in terms of bad atmosphere on TV. Truth is: it's a heck of a lot better than it sounds on TV, but lack of roof doesn't prove that.

[ag futbol]

^ That might be their sales line to the fan base, but I highly suspect it's about getting more money out of prawn seats.

MLSE has a corporate customer base they can't tap at BMO field because the facilities are sorely lacking. Nobody is going to pay big money for tickets to take a client to a game where they'll potentially get rained on or overly exposed to the elements. It's just not posh enough to cater to that segment of the market. I suspect that is what they realized when they took a look around the league at other (newer) facilities.

When this team had a glimmer of hope and the stands were packed, the atmosphere was more than sufficient enough for TV. I just can't see the logic behind investing that money unless they feel they are going to get an ROI out of it.

[prizby]

See above.

MLSE if they want.

The city or province if they want.

Not the Argos because they haven't a dime.

i don't think the city or province have much either

[Mulder]

See above.

MLSE if they want.

The city or province if they want.

Not the Argos because they haven't a dime.


i don't think the city or province have much either

Funny, Argos have a owner worth in the range of a billion, and made almost 10 million from the Grey Cup, and the Commish has said with the new TV contract, all teams will be in the black. But they don't have a dime. Time to get facts in order first....

[Phil]

Funny, Argos have a owner worth in the range of a billion, and made almost 10 million from the Grey Cup, and the Commish has said with the new TV contract, all teams will be in the black. But they don't have a dime. Time to get facts in order first....

Good point. The feeling to this point is that Argo ownership doesn't want to spend big on the team and modification of the stadium to accomodate the CFL field would need a large price tag attached. Who knows going forward though.

[JonO]

Funny, Argos have a owner worth in the range of a billion, and made almost 10 million from the Grey Cup, and the Commish has said with the new TV contract, all teams will be in the black. But they don't have a dime. Time to get facts in order first....
To be fair, the guy has been quoted as saying he is planning to sell the argos as soon as they break even (at least that is what I recall reading). Doesn't sound like he is ready to invest more money into this venture.

[Mulder]

To be fair, the guy has been quoted as saying he is planning to sell the argos as soon as they break even (at least that is what I recall reading). Doesn't sound like he is ready to invest more money into this venture.

While the original poster that got all this all started again "talked to a guy who knows a guy, with knowledge of ..."
I also know a guy who has talked with the guy (owner of the Argos), and shared that he is looking at locations and invest in a stadium.

I've said all along, that if the Argo's are getting kicked out of Rogers Centre in 2015, the longer we don't hear anything about a potential new stadium, the more likely it is going to be a BMO Renovation.

[PopePouri]

To be fair, most North American teams are cheap even if they're making huge profits. You seem this time and time again with NFL teams who want the state the pay for new stadiums or renovations. And then typically if they don't get their way, they threaten to take their product elsewhere.

E.g.

http://deadspin.com/dolphins-cant-get-public-funding-so-they-wont-fix-up-493139577

http://deadspin.com/5971468/the-bills-blackmailed-new-york-taxpayers-into-covering-84-percent-of-stadium-renovations

[Fort York Redcoat]

Funny, Argos have a owner worth in the range of a billion, and made almost 10 million from the Grey Cup, and the Commish has said with the new TV contract, all teams will be in the black. But they don't have a dime. Time to get facts in order first....

That is funny when one thinks about the ownership. Second choice tenants, second choice ownership. I think there's more dignity in 2 Rough(r)iders than 2 teams owned by the same person in the same league.

So I got it wrong. The Argos have a dime that they could spend if the owner feels like it. Cross your fingers! I know I will...

[Mulder]

That is funny when one thinks about the ownership. Second choice tenants, second choice ownership. I think there's more dignity in 2 Rough(r)iders than 2 teams owned by the same person in the same league.

So I got it wrong. The Argos have a dime that they could spend if the owner feels like it. Cross your fingers! I know I will...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Hunt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschutz_Entertainment_Group

Quick to judge about dignity, yet forgetting your favorite leagues history.

[Fort York Redcoat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Hunt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschutz_Entertainment_Group

Quick to judge about dignity, yet forgetting your favorite leagues history.

Yep. We owe a lot to the Hunt. Lucky for us they don't own my favourite team here in Canada.

[Beach_Red]

Leiweke already said that he wanted to see improvements at BMO Field. In other words: MLSE will be paying for this. Payne also talked about a roof - which is encouraging as it shows at least ONE person within the MLSE organization understanding the importance of atmosphere (that can be heard outside of 111-113). As it is right now it's BARELY heard even on TV and would probably rank in the bottom 2-3 in the league in terms of bad atmosphere on TV. Truth is: it's a heck of a lot better than it sounds on TV, but lack of roof doesn't prove that.

Ensco is probably right, though, MLSE want those improvements for Winter Classic hockey games.

[Richard]

Just move the team Moncton. God. Why should MLSE and TFC be a charity? If no one wants to help the Argo's then so be it. Let the free market take its course.

[Pint]

Ensco is probably right, though, MLSE want those improvements for Winter Classic hockey games.

I don't know about that... For a Winter Classic in Toronto we would need well over 50,000 tickets available. Just look at the one that is coming up in Detroit with a capacity of over 100,000 people and I would imagine that it will be sold out.

[ensco]

Ensco is probably right, though, MLSE want those improvements for Winter Classic hockey games.

A bunny with a very good nose tells me that my logic on why this will happen is pretty much bang on, but my numbers were all wrong, ie as OgtheDim and others said, the dollars are way more than $10M

fwiw

[Beach_Red]

A bunny with a very good nose tells me that my logic on why this will happen is pretty much bang on, but my numbers were all wrong, ie as OgtheDim and others said, the dollars are way more than $10M

fwiw

Well, remember, it's not in everyone's best interest to keep the costs down. A movie producer I used to work said there was little interest in low-budget movies because, "How can you steal a million from a million?"

[Beach_Red]

Just move the team Moncton. God. Why should MLSE and TFC be a charity? If no one wants to help the Argo's then so be it. Let the free market take its course.

Which would be more profitable - a Winter Classic every year and the Argos (and a Grey Cup every few years) or just TFC?

[Richard]

Which would be more profitable - a Winter Classic every year and the Argos (and a Grey Cup every few years) or just TFC?

While true, if MLSE didn't fuck TFC over they would be making profits on the level of the Maple Leafs by now.

[OgtheDim]

Which would be more profitable - a Winter Classic every year and the Argos (and a Grey Cup every few years) or just TFC?

Makes some sense but......a Winter Classic won't be here every year (I would say every 4 or they will ruin the idea) and no way they do the Grey cup here every 3 years. They make far more money on the Prairies.

I'd say owning two outdoor stadiums, including one out in Downsview that you can easily expand to 50K with some temporary seating, would make you even more money.

[TFC07]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark_Hunt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschutz_Entertainment_Group

Quick to judge about dignity, yet forgetting your favorite leagues history.

That's when they started their league. MLS has moved on and it is making more revenue than ever before.

Despite Argos who have over 100 years of history (being oldest professional team in Canada), they still can't find an owner 100% invested while they play second fiddle to other pro teams in this city even though they're a championship team.

Scary to think a league (which isn't a new league like MLS) with only 8 teams, there's two teams owned by same guy. What's going to happen to Argos and Lions once Braley gets too old and decide to retire and sell the teams?

Braley might be rich, but he sure isn't investing a lot into Argos (because if he did, then Argos would have found a new home by now).

[glaze]

Makes some sense but......a Winter Classic won't be here every year (I would say every 4 or they will ruin the idea) and no way they do the Grey cup here every 3 years. They make far more money on the Prairies.

I'd say owning two outdoor stadiums, including one out in Downsview that you can easily expand to 50K with some temporary seating, would make you even more money.

The issue is extremely complex. MLSE only cares about the bottom line. All of the points made earlier are correct. They are thinking about the Winter Classic. The Argos give them some more leverage in getting concessions from the city, etc. The CFL would love MLSE to step in as an owner, and teams, generally are doing alright in the league. It doesn't cost much to run a team in the CFL, the TV contract is great and Grey Cups make a lot of money for the host.

The Argos have a horrid playing situation, that they brought on themselves through cheap ownership. Varsity was sidetracked in part because of the local issues of Annex residents not wanting the stadium. York U should have happened, but the team backed out when they could play in Rogers Centre for free.

This year they saw what that meant and the Argos are playing a forgettable home schedule with inconsistent mid-week dates.

The fans don't deserve this. But TFC supporters do not deserve to have another team forced on us.

With a completely new east stand, they could make the Argos fit into BMO. If they got creative like the Islanders plan for Brooklyn, they could have less of an impact on the sightlines for TFC.
Fill in the corner between 111 and 112, expand the south end, eliminate the north stand and have the football field extend as far north as possible. A SkyDome setup would be unacceptable. Losing grass would be unacceptable. A TFC rebuilding year while they rebuild the east stand would be unacceptable. I think there is a way this could work, but I don't think MLSE has given us any reason to believe they could do it.

[TFC07]

The issue is extremely complex. MLSE only cares about the bottom line. All of the points made earlier are correct. They are thinking about the Winter Classic. The Argos give them some more leverage in getting concessions from the city, etc. The CFL would love MLSE to step in as an owner, and teams, generally are doing alright in the league. It doesn't cost much to run a team in the CFL, the TV contract is great and Grey Cups make a lot of money for the host.

The Argos have a horrid playing situation, that they brought on themselves through cheap ownership. Varsity was sidetracked in part because of the local issues of Annex residents not wanting the stadium. York U should have happened, but the team backed out when they could play in Rogers Centre for free.

This year they saw what that meant and the Argos are playing a forgettable home schedule with inconsistent mid-week dates.

The fans don't deserve this. But TFC supporters do not deserve to have another team forced on us.

With a completely new east stand, they could make the Argos fit into BMO. If they got creative like the Islanders plan for Brooklyn, they could have less of an impact on the sightlines for TFC.
Fill in the corner between 111 and 112, expand the south end, eliminate the north stand and have the football field extend as far north as possible. A SkyDome setup would be unacceptable. Losing grass would be unacceptable. A TFC rebuilding year while they rebuild the east stand would be unacceptable. I think there is a way this could work, but I don't think MLSE has given us any reason to believe they could do it.

What about food building? Do you know how much it's going to cost to eliminate North Stands? It's fully concrete built which it's going to cost a lot of money and you got to tear down parts of food building as well if you want to extend BMO field in that direction.

If any stands are going to be pushed back or eliminate, then it will be south end stand. It will be cheaper and there will be more room to extend there (nothing behind south end besides a parking lot).

[JonO]

Yeah - have to think it would be south/east stands if the changes do come...

[BuSaPuNk]

What about food building? Do you know how much it's going to cost to eliminate North Stands? It's fully concrete built which it's going to cost a lot of money and you got to tear down parts of food building as well if you want to extend BMO field in that direction.

If any stands are going to be pushed back or eliminate, then it will be south end stand. It will be cheaper and there will be more room to extend there (nothing behind south end besides a parking lot).

If i recall correctly the Food Building is a protected building. It's a historic building and cannot be touched. So they can't expand north.

[prizby]

Funny, Argos have a owner worth in the range of a billion, and made almost 10 million from the Grey Cup, and the Commish has said with the new TV contract, all teams will be in the black. But they don't have a dime. Time to get facts in order first....

lets get our facts in order first...the argos have spent how much on getting themselves into a new stadium despite being set up with sweetheart deals only to back out last minute?

[redcard]

msle definitely wants to expand BMO field for winter classic...no doubt...

but lets not forget when Real Madrid came to town, that was a lot of money for mlse, so i can see them wanting to bring in more big name clubs to play on a first class pitch, not a torn up pointy ball field...they will no doubt make more money with a winter classic for the leafts and big name friendly for TFC in the summer...i dont see them expanding to let the argos in. those two events alone will make more money than the argos ever will.

[ginkster88]

The Grey Cup would never be held at BMO anyway.. not when they can fill the Dome and be indoors...

[Beach_Red]

The Grey Cup would never be held at BMO anyway.. not when they can fill the Dome and be indoors...

Isn't the point of this whole discussion that with grass going into the Dome for baseball they don't want football in there? Maybe a one-off Grey Cup would be okay.

Anyway, the CFL has found its groove and will likely be stable at its present level (with Ottawa back) for the foreseeable future. MLS is still a bit of a question mark. It could get bigger, but the rest of the newer stadiums in the league probably mean that it's finding its level for a couple of decades, anyway. Investing in TFC also means investing in MLS, how good an investment is that? How much more profitable will it get, not just in Toronto but league-wide?

[prizby]

Investing in TFC also means investing in MLS, how good an investment is that? How much more profitable will it get, not just in Toronto but league-wide?

Depends on how the academies come along in the league; if better players are being developed through better investments in facilities and coaches, then this means that there will likely be more players sold on to Europe which means profits could be endless, depending on how well a club does in developing players

[brad]

Depends on how the academies come along in the league; if better players are being developed through better investments in facilities and coaches, then this means that there will likely be more players sold on to Europe which means profits could be endless, depending on how well a club does in developing players

Not to mention the whole shift towards buying young DP's with a potential sell on value. There is potentially a big market towards snapping up guys like Laba, playing/developing them for a few years and selling them on to Europe.

Also - if they can truly tap the TV markets then it will pay off massively I'd think.

[brad]

msle definitely wants to expand BMO field for winter classic...no doubt...

but lets not forget when Real Madrid came to town, that was a lot of money for mlse, so i can see them wanting to bring in more big name clubs to play on a first class pitch, not a torn up pointy ball field...they will no doubt make more money with a winter classic for the leafts and big name friendly for TFC in the summer...i dont see them expanding to let the argos in. those two events alone will make more money than the argos ever will.

We had turf when Madrid came, we put down grass over top. While ideally they would not want to incur that expense, but if it wasn't a show stopper before, it won't be again.

IMHO MLS needs to step up here and exert more control and prevent teams from playing on turf.

[redcard]

We had turf when Madrid came, we put down grass over top. While ideally they would not want to incur that expense, but if it wasn't a show stopper before, it won't be again.

IMHO MLS needs to step up here and exert more control and prevent teams from playing on turf.

yes its true they laid grass over the turf but there is no way mlse will allow that world class heated, well drained field be dug up for turf...plus the star players from madrid were limited in their playing time because there was issues with the grass that was laid over top of the turf...real grass means bigger teams that will allow their stars to play more minutes which means higher price for the tickets....means more money for mlse.

[JonO]

My understanding is that turf is not in the equation. So that point is moo...

[prizby]

Not to mention the whole shift towards buying young DP's with a potential sell on value. There is potentially a big market towards snapping up guys like Laba, playing/developing them for a few years and selling them on to Europe.

Also - if they can truly tap the TV markets then it will pay off massively I'd think.

kind of what porto does with young south american's

[CFL]

kind of what porto does with young south american's

TFC doesn't use its academy to develop players for it's MLS team. They are so long off selling anyone to Europe, that if anyone is waiting for the TFC academy to make millions on transfer fees, they'll be long dead before a million dollars is raised that way. Has any MLS team sold an academy player (not first team starters) to any of the real major leagues? And guys like Laba are here, cause they're not good enough for Europe at 21. Why would a club over there want them at 25?

Also the club's TV market is limited to Ontario. How much can one get out that rock?

[BuSaPuNk]

Ummm pretty sure the clubs TV revenue isn't just limited to themselves. The TV deal is leauge wide and every team gets a cut through the process.

And if we don't use our academy to develop players for TFC then why are Morgan, Henry, and Osorio on our squad and part of the CMNT?

And he didn't come from our Academy but the case can be made that we could sell someone from our academy for millions long were the days we sold Edu to Rangers for $5 million.

But what are we really expecting from a guy with a boardname of CFL?

I would suggest you either make a rational case or go to a CFL message board.

[Yohan]

TFC doesn't use its academy to develop players for it's MLS team. They are so long off selling anyone to Europe, that if anyone is waiting for the TFC academy to make millions on transfer fees, they'll be long dead before a million dollars is raised that way. Has any MLS team sold an academy player (not first team starters) to any of the real major leagues? And guys like Laba are here, cause they're not good enough for Europe at 21. Why would a club over there want them at 25?

lol. you need to learn more about MLS before spouting off

MLS academy players are not under contract with MLS team, so European teams don't have to pay a fee to get an academy player to sign for them. TFC lost 3 players this way to European teams.

MLS teams do sign academy players as homegrown players, and since HG mechanism is still relatively young, few players have been sold to Europe. Andy Najar was sold to Anderlecht at 19, and Juan Agudelo is joining Stoke City in Jan and he would have been gone in the summer except New England chose not to accept a fee. Agudelo is 20.

[Yohan]

Ummm pretty sure the clubs TV revenue isn't just limited to themselves. The TV deal is leauge wide and every team gets a cut through the process. there is a national TV deal and clubs are also allowed to make regional TV deals (for the games that aren't on national broadcast)

[brad]

TFC doesn't use its academy to develop players for it's MLS team. They are so long off selling anyone to Europe, that if anyone is waiting for the TFC academy to make millions on transfer fees, they'll be long dead before a million dollars is raised that way. Has any MLS team sold an academy player (not first team starters) to any of the real major leagues? And guys like Laba are here, cause they're not good enough for Europe at 21. Why would a club over there want them at 25?

Also the club's TV market is limited to Ontario. How much can one get out that rock?

A few things to comment on here.

*Selling players to Europe does not just mean selling players to big clubs for millions of dollars per player. There is a big market in selling players to lesser markets for lower sums. Sell enough players to lower divisions for a few hundred thousand a piece and things add up quickly. This is a common business model for player development and sales.
*Andy Najar, a product of the DC academy was sold to Anderlecht for around 3 million.
*The academy is not turning out the quality - yet. It will take at least 5-10 years for that to happen. The real value in the academy is not getting players past the critical development levels and polishing them, it's getting them in their formative years and developing them properly.
*Laba would be playing in La Liga if the teams that wanted him were not broke.
*Urruti was wanted by other teams (interest from clubs in Mexico, Spain and Italy), but he chose us - most likely because he knew his pay cheque would never bounce here.
*it's a single entity revenue sharing league. TV deals in the US profit TFC. MLS has broken onto NBC, it's market is increasing.
*Don Garber is hell bent on making the MLS a top league by 2020. That doesn't happen without money, and lots of it. While I do think it's an ambitious plan, he has been very successful in growing the league, so he gets the benefit of the doubt IMHO.
*flat out - this sport is growing like mad in North America.

Finally - I assume you are a CFL/Argo's fan. Why on Earth would you want in our crappy little stadium? It's not a great place, it's poorly accesible by most avenues. You should be anti-Argos in BMO as well, and looking for something better for your team.