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Yagbod
12-07-2009, 10:16 PM
I kinda like this idea. Mostly because I harbour delusional visions of TFC being top of the table one day. On the other hand, if we just squeak into these playoffs, do we even get a home game? (i.e. 4th place, all three teams are higher seeds)

Here’s the new proposal:


The top four teams in each conference would qualify for the playoffs, with the first stage now a round robin setup in two groups of four
Each match in the group stage would be played at the home venue of the highest seeded team based on regular season performance — so the regular season winner would have three home games and no away games
The top two from each group would qualify for the semi-finals
Semi-finals would be one match, with again the highest seeded team from the regular season hosting
The final would be hosted not at a neutral venue as in the past, but at the home of the highest seeded team (this I like!!!)


http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/07/27/mls-to-revamp-playoffs/

Super
12-07-2009, 10:20 PM
This makes a TON of sense - and is a much better idea for the league as well. You're GUARANTEED to have a stadium full of people who actually support one of the teams - unlike what you see at a neutral stadium where, sure, you'll have some supporters who travel, but never in the thousands (unless we make it ;))

kodiakTFC
12-07-2009, 10:26 PM
I like the current playoff format, all though i would prefer a single table with the top 8 going through. All the things suggested by the article just complicate the whole process. I do however agree with ditching the neutral venue, I am against a neutral venue completely.

Yagbod
12-07-2009, 10:35 PM
I also like the extra playoff game in the first round. I wonder if the cup game would be pushed back a week, or if there would be 3 round robin games in 8 days?

Super
12-07-2009, 10:58 PM
This would SERIOUSLY up the value of winning the Supporters Shield. Imagine all those extra home games (at least 3). 5 at best - if you go all the way. If you're the very bottom seeded team you get ZERO home games in the play-offs. None! I think that's only fair though. This way at least if you are last seeded and still win it, well, then at least you earned it by grinding out results in 5 straight away games.

Ossington Mental Youth
12-07-2009, 11:52 PM
Id still prefer the single table idea but i do think that winning the supporters shield is massively important and should be recognized as s o.

james
12-08-2009, 12:21 AM
all tho i always wanted the MLS Cup final to be played at one of the finalists stadiums so that the atmosphere would be much better, there is still quite a few teams that i dont think have the proper stadiums to host an MLS Cup final. Teams like New England and Houston still play in Football stadiums and gridlines all over the field. While Kansas and San Jose play in 10,000 seat baseball parks. And then there is teams like Dallas and Colorado who play in empty stadiums pretty much every week, could they sell out a MLS cup final game with only 1 week notice to sell 20,000 tickets??

prizby
12-08-2009, 04:55 AM
weren't we promised the mls cup hosting rights by 2012

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-08-2009, 07:54 AM
It's not fair to both teams, though. Finals in other competitions around the world are always hosted at neutral venues for precisely that reason.

Know what playoff format I'd like? None. ;)

james
12-08-2009, 02:04 PM
It's not fair to both teams, though. Finals in other competitions around the world are always hosted at neutral venues for precisely that reason.

Know what playoff format I'd like? None. ;)

I think 95% of the time that neutral venue is actually in the capital city and the countries National Team stadium...and often national stadiums are among the best and biggest in the country. So it also has to do with the fact that the national stadium is used to host the final to generate more money, bigger crowds rather then it just being a neutral venue. Also many of those countries are alot smaller in size, and both fans can travel to a final game to create a great atmosphere. US+Canada is massive in land size and is very hard for fans to travel to leaving the final being played in front of bad atmosphere with niether group of fans making the trip.

There will most likely always be a playoff format in MLS. And there actually is quite a few countries that also have playoff formats outside of the Big leagues in Europe.

CoachGT
12-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Look at the Superbowl, Grey Cup, Champions League Final, All-Star games and many other major "events", especially those held in North America. One game, site established well in advance, allows for planning, preparation and the creation of a big "party" and media circus. If the location of the Super Bowl or All Star Game (in any sport) wasn't known in advance, there wouldn't be anywhere near the same amount or quality of the showcasing done by the league and the players.

The expectation is that the final is an event, subject to all of the hype that can be created. Better to have it arranged in advance than working on the fly.

james
12-08-2009, 02:27 PM
Look at the Superbowl, Grey Cup, Champions League Final, All-Star games and many other major "events", especially those held in North America. One game, site established well in advance, allows for planning, preparation and the creation of a big "party" and media circus. If the location of the Super Bowl or All Star Game (in any sport) wasn't known in advance, there wouldn't be anywhere near the same amount or quality of the showcasing done by the league and the players.

The expectation is that the final is an event, subject to all of the hype that can be created. Better to have it arranged in advance than working on the fly.


i see what you are saying and agree somewhat, just comparring Super Bowl, Grey Cup and all star games arent the best examples because i find those finals are whats wrong with the SPORT, in those finals they are held in advance to get the half time shows organized, parties organized, events organized, the ads, the celebrities, exc, and not so much for the sport its self. The way the super bowl is i cant stand, half the people dont even watch it for the actual game or even care about the game, its all the other shit they wanna see.

Better example maybe ya Champion League, Europa League, World Cup, Euro Cup, FA Cup, Carling Cup exc.

JonO
12-08-2009, 02:35 PM
The other issue without a neutral venue is away support. Can you imaging if TFC ever make the final and TFC supporters are only allocated 200 or 300 tickets.

Pookie
12-08-2009, 02:40 PM
I like the format.

I get what some are saying about moving away from a neutral site but outside of the "party stuff" it really has no impact on ratings.

Don't forget that the target audience is a North American fan. For the most part, neutral site games are rare to decide championships. MLB, NBA and NHL do not use them.

james
12-08-2009, 02:41 PM
The other issue without a neutral venue is away support. Can you imaging if TFC ever make the final and TFC supporters are only allocated 200 or 300 tickets.

question is since games are pre aranged like a year in advance where the MLS Cup final will be played, how many tickets are sold before the 2 team finalists are even anounced. In a big stadium like Seattle, or DC United it probably wouldnt matter cause they probably will have empty seats anyways, but if it was at a smaller venue like Toronto or Chicago its possible the MLS Cup final could be sold out weeks in advance. Toronto probably would have it included in season tickets, same with maybe other future clubs like philly or montreal.

Pookie
12-08-2009, 02:51 PM
question is since games are pre aranged like a year in advance where the MLS Cup final will be played, how many tickets are sold before the 2 team finalists are even anounced. In a big stadium like Seattle, or DC United it probably wouldnt matter cause they probably will have empty seats anyways, but if it was at a smaller venue like Toronto or Chicago its possible the MLS Cup final could be sold out weeks in advance. Toronto probably would have it included in season tickets, same with maybe other future clubs like philly or montreal.

The way that you solve that is that you don't announce the sale of the ticket until the games/teams are determined. You also could wait 2 weeks between the semi finals and finals to allow time for tickets to be sold.

If we think back to when the Leafs were in the playoffs, they didn't sell Round 2 tickets until they won Round 1 (yes, children, that actually happened).

I seriously doubt MLSE would include Cup final tickets in a season ticket package. They could jack the price up to RM levels.

As far as visiting support goes, a number of tickets would be allotted to the visiting club and they could then sell to their fans.

It's not that much of an issue.

JonO
12-08-2009, 02:55 PM
^^ So are you suggesting that if TFC were ever to host an MLS cup in which TFC were playing then season ticket holders wouldn't even get first crack at their own seats?

JonO
12-08-2009, 02:57 PM
MLB, NBA and NHL do not use them.
None of those are single game championships.

CoachGT
12-08-2009, 03:14 PM
i see what you are saying and agree somewhat, just comparring Super Bowl, Grey Cup and all star games arent the best examples because i find those finals are whats wrong with the SPORT, in those finals they are held in advance to get the half time shows organized, parties organized, events organized, the ads, the celebrities, exc, and not so much for the sport its self. The way the super bowl is i cant stand, half the people dont even watch it for the actual game or even care about the game, its all the other shit they wanna see.

Better example maybe ya Champion League, Europa League, World Cup, Euro Cup, FA Cup, Carling Cup exc.

I agree - they may not be things that I necessarily see as the best aspects of the sport either, but it is what the powers that be compare themselves (and aspire) to.

rocker
12-08-2009, 03:25 PM
i like the whole group stage thing for the playoffs.

so the season is like world cup qualifying, and then playoffs are like the world cup tournament (group stage, then semis/final). extra home games are also great financial incentive for teams...well, the ownership groups not the players, since they are stuck making what they make.

TOBOR !
12-08-2009, 03:31 PM
Each match in the group stage would be played at the home venue of the highest seeded team based on regular season performance — so the regular season winner would have three home games and no away games


...or is it based on record between teams that are in the playoffs ? (read : tiebreaker format).

Anyway - predetermined (possible/probable) neutral site is best. Maybe cities could bid to host it.

Carts
12-08-2009, 03:36 PM
The final would be hosted not at a neutral venue as in the past, but at the home of the highest seeded team (this I like!!!)


The MLS must embrace this idea - even if its just this part (quoted above)...

The mainstream media need to be turning on the MLS Cup Final and seeing a packed stadium going down right ape-shit for 90-minutes plus... They need to see that in the games mean something to the fans of each team... A neutral site final doesn't show that at all...

Maybe one day the league will be big enough, that the final match is an event in its own right - but right now, its really something that matters most to the cities involved...

Carts...

Pookie
12-08-2009, 04:10 PM
^^ So are you suggesting that if TFC were ever to host an MLS cup in which TFC were playing then season ticket holders wouldn't even get first crack at their own seats?

I wasn't saying that at all. I am saying that I can't see MLSE including MLS Cup final tickets at their home venue in a season ticket package when they could jack the cost of those waaaay up.

That isn't to say that season ticket holders wouldn't get a shot at their own seats.

One way in which it could work is that the day after Toronto qualifies for the final, an announcement is given and a pre-sale window is provided for season ticket holders... much the same way that they did for Real Madrid.

There are what, 21,000 seats now with the North Stand and 16,000 Season ticket holders? I'm making an assumption that they wouldn't put in a temporary set of stands somewhere which is entirely possible too.

You'd offer maybe 1,000 to 2,000 seats for the visiting club to snap up. The rest are offered up in a public sale with perhaps a small window for gold listers to get them.

Season ticket holders would get first crack at playoff seats.

With 2 weeks available between the semi final and finals, there is plenty of time to sell them all. In fact, I'd be surprised if it took more than a day to sell them. I just don't see a "freebie" in the package and certainly don't see them selling for anything less than a king's ransom or your first child.

james
12-08-2009, 04:57 PM
The MLS must embrace this idea - even if its just this part (quoted above)...

The mainstream media need to be turning on the MLS Cup Final and seeing a packed stadium going down right ape-shit for 90-minutes plus... They need to see that in the games mean something to the fans of each team... A neutral site final doesn't show that at all...

Maybe one day the league will be big enough, that the final match is an event in its own right - but right now, its really something that matters most to the cities involved...

Carts...

i also think its better to play in a stadium where fans actually care. MLS wants to show fans like in Europe singing and going crazy. But again the only problem with not having a pre-arranged city and stadium to play at MLS could end up playing at a shitty venue not suitable for a MLS final. That would include San Jose, Kansas, New England and Houston. If these cities got new SSS built then id say lets do it. But untill that happens you kind of have to play at a pre-aranged stadium to make sure you dont end up playing in a ball park or on a NFL Football covered gridlined field.

Hitcho
12-08-2009, 05:05 PM
I just cannot get excited about any type of play off format. I really think the league needs to swap to a single table format and award a league title based on who finishes top of the league at the end of the season. In a league this tight, we'd be virtually guaranteed an exciting title run in every season.

Have a knock out cup comp running alongside the league during the season. Note that this will make winnig the league harder if you're also going well in the cup because of the roster restrictions, so this will add to the excitement and make it unlikely that any team does the "double". In fact, it gives teams lower down the league the chance to focus on a good cup run since they are out of the title race.

The other main benefit of this is that it loads matches into the most playable weather period during the season. One of the reasons that the play offs are so poorly attended is that no-one wants to freeze their asses off in November. The Cup games would be played more in high summer, and the final would be right after the regular season ends. Much better timing.

The knock out cup can be done in group stages first, reverse seeded based on previous year's league position for increased parity, etc. There are lots of ways to make it sellable to the US public and to play about with the format to maximise exposure and league revenues etc.

Having said that, this proposed move does at least put a lot more emphasis on winning the league in the regular season rather than just scraping the play offs and calling that a "success". If TFC keeps aiming at the last play off spot then MSLE will get zero dollars from any post season run - so that's the perfect incentive for them to get us as high up the league as possible. it also means teams that are "safe" in the play off places have a strong incentive to keep playing to win and not just rest players for the post season in their final few matches.

Pookie
12-08-2009, 05:12 PM
i also think its better to play in a stadium where fans actually care. MLS wants to show fans like in Europe singing and going crazy. But again the only problem with not having a pre-arranged city and stadium to play at MLS could end up playing at a shitty venue not suitable for a MLS final. That would include San Jose, Kansas, New England and Houston. If these cities got new SSS built then id say lets do it. But untill that happens you kind of have to play at a pre-aranged stadium to make sure you dont end up playing in a ball park or on a NFL Football covered gridlined field.

You make a good point though the Final does not necessarily have to be played at the exact home field of the top seed.

For example, when Montreal played Santos in the CCL they moved it to the Olympic stadium... obviously weather was a factor.

I have no idea what other stadiums may be available in those areas that could be rented without lines but for enough money, I'm sure you could get some college kids to scrub the field of a NCAA stadium.

rocker
12-08-2009, 05:22 PM
Have a knock out cup comp running alongside the league during the season. Note that this will make winnig the league harder if you're also going well in the cup because of the roster restrictions, so this will add to the excitement and make it unlikely that any team does the "double". In fact, it gives teams lower down the league the chance to focus on a good cup run since they are out of the title race.

This already happens in the US.. the U.S. Open Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup

james
12-08-2009, 05:22 PM
i dont even really care what format they use for the playoffs. I just want a 1-league table season since we already are playing every single team 1-home and 1-away match in 2010...whats the point on the East and West any more????

After the season i dont mind if they still have a playoffs, they do in countries like Mexico, Columbia, Chlie, Australia, even in England Coca-Cola Championship, Leage one and League 2 have a playoff format for promotion.

james
12-08-2009, 05:28 PM
You make a good point though the Final does not necessarily have to be played at the exact home field of the top seed.

For example, when Montreal played Santos in the CCL they moved it to the Olympic stadium... obviously weather was a factor.

I have no idea what other stadiums may be available in those areas that could be rented without lines but for enough money, I'm sure you could get some college kids to scrub the field of a NCAA stadium.

thats true it did work really well for Montreal. And Toronto could do the same with the Sky Dome, but question is do all those other cities have a stadium that would be available with such short notice since they woudlnt know till about a week before the final whos gonna host it. In New England they only got the Patriots stadim really, Patriots could already have a home game that same weekend, meanning gridlines everywhere if New Eng. Revs played there. Kansas play in a ball park, there is the Kansas City Chiefs stadium they could maybe rent out, but again Chiefs might have a game that same weekend as well, with NFL gridlines, also that stadium is like 80,000 seats, Kansas would be lucky to get 20,000, you dont wanna see that at an MLS Cup final. Houston similar conditions, they play at Houston College Football stadium, could also possible use the Houston Texans stadium, only difference being Houston can actually get +30,000 fans for big games. Then lastly you got San Jose who could use the Oakland A's stadium, but again could be booked for some events and also that stadium aint the best looking for soccer. Its just a bigger baseball stadium, if you see soccer being played there it looks really wierd on TV.