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Ossington Mental Youth
12-01-2009, 12:05 PM
http://www.canada.com/sports/Edmonton+lined+soccer+franchise/2289284/story.html

More good things for Canadian Soccer.
Wonder if they will be a farm league for the white caps

maninb
12-01-2009, 12:09 PM
Good luck playing in Edmunchuk in March!!! It's usually -15 and loads od snow.....

twistedchinaman
12-01-2009, 12:11 PM
^ Good things for soccer in Alberta; hopefully the Drillers stay around -- Foote Field to start, not aiming too high immediately.

tovan
12-01-2009, 12:47 PM
it appears the Whitecaps are likely selling their NASL team to the Edmonton group when Vancouver moves up to MLS.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/sports/columnists/terry_jones/2009/12/01/11989051-sun.html

kodiakTFC
12-01-2009, 02:20 PM
Good luck playing in Edmunchuk in March!!! It's usually -15 and loads od snow.....

The NASL, such as the USL, season will presumably start in the beginning of May and end in mid-October. They'll avoid Edmonton's brutal winter.

Velvet Elvis
12-01-2009, 02:24 PM
I used to watch the Drillers play, hell I even watched the NPSL (indoor) Drillers play :lol:

Shway
12-01-2009, 02:40 PM
The future outlook of Canadian Professional teams:

Toronto FC
Vancouver Whitecaps
Montreal Impact
Edmonton
Ottawa Fury
Hamilton

Canada should start there own professional league...i kid...

But the hope for a better national team, seems almost realistically optimistic

TFCRegina
12-01-2009, 03:12 PM
The future outlook of Canadian Professional teams:

Toronto FC
Vancouver Whitecaps
Montreal Impact
Edmonton
Ottawa Fury
Hamilton

Canada should start there own professional league...i kid...

But the hope for a better national team, seems almost realistically optimistic

At least it might keep some folks at home.

Oldtimer
12-01-2009, 03:16 PM
http://www.canada.com/sports/Edmonton+lined+soccer+franchise/2289284/story.html

More good things for Canadian Soccer.
Wonder if they will be a farm league for the white caps

It seems to be intended as a farm team for the Whitecaps.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Jones/2009/11/30/11986986-sun.html

CoachGT
12-01-2009, 03:19 PM
Rochester has also joined the NASL.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=706280&sec=us&cc=3888

Toronto Ruffrider
12-01-2009, 04:27 PM
Rochester has also joined the NASL.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=706280&sec=us&cc=3888

This could be the finishing blow to USL-1. Rochester was one of the last "big" teams in that league. Apart from Portland, which will join MLS soon enough, the rest of the major players are in the NASL.

Yeoman
12-01-2009, 04:47 PM
*sigh*
FC London forgotten about by someone again.
just had higher attendance then the ottawa fury that's all.
great to hear about edmonton though. hoping that this does happen soon.
just one more team to beat in the Voyaguers Cup!

TFCRegina
12-01-2009, 04:48 PM
*sigh*
FC London forgotten about by someone again.
just had higher attendance then the ottawa fury that's all.
great to hear about edmonton though. hoping that this does happen soon.
just one more team to beat in the Voyaguers Cup!

The Fury stadium can't fit more than 400.

tfcleeds
12-01-2009, 04:54 PM
This could be the finishing blow to USL-1. Rochester was one of the last "big" teams in that league. Apart from Portland, which will join MLS soon enough, the rest of the major players are in the NASL.

Poor Charleston Battery...

As for the PR Islanders...stuff 'em!

TFCRegina
12-01-2009, 04:55 PM
The future outlook of Canadian Professional teams:

Toronto FC
Vancouver Whitecaps
Montreal Impact
Edmonton
Ottawa Fury
Hamilton

Canada should start there own professional league...i kid...

But the hope for a better national team, seems almost realistically optimistic

Also keep in mind this league would have 1st division status, so i don't know how they could justify keeping out Canadian teams if the teams wanted to make the jump.

Toronto Ruffrider
12-01-2009, 04:57 PM
Poor Charleston Battery...

As for the PR Islanders...stuff 'em!

Charleston is voluntarily moving down to USL-2 next season. USL-1 really is bare bones right now.

Razcle
12-01-2009, 05:00 PM
I am not sure I would ever want an all Canadian League. I am quite happy with playing the US especially when there are some road games to attend in Boston, NY-NJ & Ohio, just a few hours over the boarder. Flying out to Edmonton and Vancouver to watch TFC play on a more reqular basis would not be an ideal situation for myself.

I am happy to hear that this new league is looking at replacing the the teams heading up to the MLS. More Canadian cities developing high level players will help our national program.

Although when we play the Edmonton team we will have to drill their players with nose and chanting, and let them know what the premier team in Canada is.

Detroit_TFC
12-01-2009, 05:04 PM
Poor Charleston Battery...

As for the PR Islanders...stuff 'em!

The Battery has self-regulated themselves to USL2. They cited travel costs but the true answer is probably they saw the handwriting on the wall regarding USL1. They are committed to staying with USL so going to USL2 was the only choice. As for the rest, there's no way USL will keep USL1 with just six teams. USL1 and 2 will merge with some sort of conferences to keep travel costs low.

Every prediction I've made on this fiasco has been wrong, so who knows?

TFCRegina
12-01-2009, 05:13 PM
Charleston is voluntarily moving down to USL-2 next season. USL-1 really is bare bones right now.

Is there even a league left? Montreal, Vancouver, Charleston, Carolina and Rochester gone. I thought the league only had 10 teams to begin with...

The two will be merged into a single division.

Toronto Ruffrider
12-01-2009, 06:05 PM
Is there even a league left? Montreal, Vancouver, Charleston, Carolina and Rochester gone. I thought the league only had 10 teams to begin with...

The two will be merged into a single division.

I don't know if I'd call what's left a league, but USL-1 only had 11 teams last season. Montreal, Vancouver, Carolina, Rochester, Miami and Minnesota all made the jump to the NASL, while Charleston relegated itself to USL-2. Of the 11 USL-1 clubs from last season, only Austin, Cleveland, Puerto Rico and Portland are left, and we all know how long Portland will be in that division.

As far as expansion prospects go, FC New York and the Tampy Bay Rowdies were expected to play in USL-1 next season, but the latter team is now part of the NASL. Unless some expansion teams materialise out of nowhere, I don't see how this division can operate next season without some kind of merger with USL-2.

TFC07
12-01-2009, 06:51 PM
I am not sure I would ever want an all Canadian League. I am quite happy with playing the US especially when there are some road games to attend in Boston, NY-NJ & Ohio, just a few hours over the boarder. Flying out to Edmonton and Vancouver to watch TFC play on a more reqular basis would not be an ideal situation for myself.

I am happy to hear that this new league is looking at replacing the the teams heading up to the MLS. More Canadian cities developing high level players will help our national program.

Although when we play the Edmonton team we will have to drill their players with nose and chanting, and let them know what the premier team in Canada is.

Really?

I totally disagree with you. I would rather play Canadian cities than American cities because we actually have a history/rivalry with Canadian cites. Being from Toronto/GTA/Ontario will make one hella of a road going to places like Western Canada where we are really hated unlike USA where no one cares about us. Trust me, it will be worth a plane ticket to watch TFC play against other Canadian cities than going on a road trip in USA.

Oldtimer
12-01-2009, 07:45 PM
Really?

I totally disagree with you. I would rather play Canadian cities than American cities because we actually have a history/rivalry with Canadian cites. Being from Toronto/GTA/Ontario will make one hella of a road going to places like Western Canada where we are really hated unlike USA where no one cares about us. Trust me, it will be worth a plane ticket to watch TFC play against other Canadian cities than going on a road trip in USA.

or going to Montreal...

Actually all of the regions of Canada not located in the GTA hate Toronto. Fact.
That makes for awesome rivalries.

Macksam
12-01-2009, 10:42 PM
Really?

I totally disagree with you. I would rather play Canadian cities than American cities because we actually have a history/rivalry with Canadian cites. Being from Toronto/GTA/Ontario will make one hella of a road going to places like Western Canada where we are really hated unlike USA where no one cares about us. Trust me, it will be worth a plane ticket to watch TFC play against other Canadian cities than going on a road trip in USA.
Not really.

TorCanSoc
12-01-2009, 11:14 PM
Really?

I totally disagree with you. I would rather play Canadian cities than American cities because we actually have a history/rivalry with Canadian cites. Being from Toronto/GTA/Ontario will make one hella of a road going to places like Western Canada where we are really hated unlike USA where no one cares about us. Trust me, it will be worth a plane ticket to watch TFC play against other Canadian cities than going on a road trip in USA.

I totally disagree with your disagreement. An all Canadian league would not be good. Sure Vanc, Mtl and Toronto would be strong. After that, I'm not sure people would "buy in" to a Canadian League. I think Toronto and soon Vancouver bought into the fact that for Canada and the U.S., this is the big leagues. I think an all Canadian league would be limited, and not grow very much. Ok after our big three, what other cities could draw 20K per game? Calgary or Edmonton, maybe? Ottawa, I doubt it. No one ever talks about soccer out east, New Brunswich or Nova Scotia. This country just doesn't have the population to have 10 franchises like TFC, Vancouver or Montreal.

Look, I'm as patriotic as the next guy. I'd love to see 10 teams drawing 20K per game in an all Canadian league, I'd absolutely love to see it. But I just don't believe it could ever happen.

Are some of us anti-American? You bet. (not me, after 17 years in the states, my sister is prett much American now). Look at the NHL, the original six was mostly American NY, BOS, DET, CHI. Not sure what point I'm trying to make here really, but we've got a long history of joint sporting ventures with the states. There is no shame in it.

Come to think of it... why hasn't Canada ever wanted their own Hockey League? Don't Canadian teams draw better in hockey games?

Anyway.... I'm good with MLS, and its direction.

james
12-02-2009, 12:12 AM
if cities in Edmonton and Ottawa and so on want to be successful they need to follow the marketting of teams like Toronto FC and Seattle Souders FC. They cant just sell to the family atmosphere, and i think a good start is not naming the teams the "Edmonton Drillers" and "Ottawa Fury". i Know those names might have a bit of history, but besides the hardcore fans no one probably has ever herd of those old teams, and i bet any soccer fans who are familiar with Soccer in Europe wouldnt jump at a team named Drillers and Fury. Id sugest they try to find a more traditional soccer name to attract the already soccer fans that followe soccer in Europe or South America to support North American soccer!

CoachGT
12-02-2009, 08:25 AM
One other things about the NASL - they bought the rights to a number of former "NASL" team names, such as the Detroit Express and Boston Minutemen. No Canadian team names were purchased (Blizzard, Manic, Drillers and so on).

james
12-02-2009, 03:20 PM
One other things about the NASL - they bought the rights to a number of former "NASL" team names, such as the Detroit Express and Boston Minutemen. No Canadian team names were purchased (Blizzard, Manic, Drillers and so on).

Why did NASL buy the rights to Detroit Express and Boston Minutemen?? does that mean they plan on still using those names or somethin in the new league???

LittleOzzy
12-02-2009, 03:34 PM
I'm kind of on the fence about farms teams in NASL. I think I would much prefer the idea of the top Canadian team each season getting a chance at the Nutrilite Canadian Championship the following year turning it into a 4 team tournament.

That way it helps out the smaller clubs by giving them a chance at playing against MLS competition, bringing in more revenue, it also creates more interest in the team knowing they have a chance at entering the CONCACAF Champions League.

I know farms teams will help the MLS clubs, but a chance of playing the higher up teams would grow interest right across the country.

If Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver each want to have a farm team, I would suggest finding a smaller league to compete in. That's just me though...

james
12-02-2009, 04:14 PM
i dont like the idea of the NASL becoming a farm league either. I prefer the idea of it being a 2nd Division sort of idea, much like USL-1 was. Its the closest we will probably get to a relegation format. And i would like to play NASL teams for US Open Cup and Canada Championship for Concacaf Champions League spots.

If we have farm teams, put them in a different league, not in NASL!

TFC07
12-02-2009, 04:14 PM
I totally disagree with your disagreement. An all Canadian league would not be good. Sure Vanc, Mtl and Toronto would be strong. After that, I'm not sure people would "buy in" to a Canadian League. I think Toronto and soon Vancouver bought into the fact that for Canada and the U.S., this is the big leagues. I think an all Canadian league would be limited, and not grow very much. Ok after our big three, what other cities could draw 20K per game? Calgary or Edmonton, maybe? Ottawa, I doubt it. No one ever talks about soccer out east, New Brunswich or Nova Scotia. This country just doesn't have the population to have 10 franchises like TFC, Vancouver or Montreal.

Look, I'm as patriotic as the next guy. I'd love to see 10 teams drawing 20K per game in an all Canadian league, I'd absolutely love to see it. But I just don't believe it could ever happen.

Are some of us anti-American? You bet. (not me, after 17 years in the states, my sister is prett much American now). Look at the NHL, the original six was mostly American NY, BOS, DET, CHI. Not sure what point I'm trying to make here really, but we've got a long history of joint sporting ventures with the states. There is no shame in it.

Come to think of it... why hasn't Canada ever wanted their own Hockey League? Don't Canadian teams draw better in hockey games?

Anyway.... I'm good with MLS, and its direction.

Are the US teams drawing 20K? Don't underestimate Canada's potential. Soccer is very popular in Canada. Yes, soccer is even more popular in Canada than it is in USA. If we have a pro league, it will just grow even more. Also a lot of Canadian cities don't have many sports teams...so having a pro soccer team in those cities wouldn't be such a bad idea as long you market league/teams right. BTW, I think Toronto/GTA is capable of having 2 or 3 teams. All it takes is money and ambition (sadly what most Canadians lack) to get this done.

MLS is a weird league overall. Their rules are dumb and this league isn't going to help Canadian teams out unless they change the rules (academy rules especially). If we truly want the game to grow in Canada and develop our own players, then we need our own league to meet the potential.

P.S. This has nothing to do with being anti-american. It has to do with being pro-Canadian and having a backbone. As long the game is pro-canadian, the Canadians will come out to support their own. (Example, CFL have better ratings than NFL in Canada).

TFC07
12-02-2009, 04:16 PM
Not really.

Explain.

Please don't say Columbus. This so called rivalry is fake! The point of this rivalry was to get TFC fans coming to Columbus to help fill out their stadium so that they can make some money.

james
12-02-2009, 04:26 PM
I think a Candian League would work if they sort of followed the smaller league in Europe. Have Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto as the big 3 teams with 20,000 seats stadiums. Followed by 10,000-15,000 seat stadiums in cities like Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary, Quebec City, Hamilton, Halifax, Winnipeg, Windsor. But i think the league would only work if all these teams have actualy Soccer stadiums, small but intimate atmosphere type, with all stadiums built in the cities. But that would need a bunch of millions to form together to get this done...which looks like will never happen. Canada has better chance of starting a all Canadian pro hockey league.

rocker
12-02-2009, 07:51 PM
my prob with a canadian league is the revenues would not be enough to pay for the kind of quality of players we see now in MLS, at least not across the board.
people on here are always discussing how MLS needs to increase quality. Well, there's no way a Canadian league would have the $$$$$ to be better than MLS. No way, unless it was unsustainable (rich guys tossing cash around). So people would be complaining about the quality. We'd also be in great competition with MLS for players, which could be a problem.

Maybe TFC would go out and sign some great players, but the Halifax team or Regina team would probably have less than 2.1 million to spend (current MLS cap) on players, so the quality would suffer a lot. Also, I think it's more legit to be in a league with 18-20 teams (MLS in a few years) rather than a 10 team league, as would probably be the max that could be sustained in Canada.

james
12-02-2009, 07:56 PM
The best way is to look at Australia that has there own league and in some ways Australia is very much like Canada such as large country in land mass, most of the land is unusable (To cold/to Hot) with smaller populations 32 million in Canada and 22 million in Austraia. Australia only has 10 teams in the league and the salary cap is just a bit below MLS i believe. We could probably get about 10 teams (1 is in New Zealand) , but besides Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver who could probably afford to pay above the 2.5 million salary cap in MLS, all the other cities would probably have to have a salary less then the average MLS team.

I also think in Australia they had a few more grounds that were already built for Rugby that were easy to use for Soccer since they dont have that many lines all over the field like they do in CFL. Its much easier to get the Rugby lines off then the CFL lines. And of the 10 teams in the Australia league 6 of the teams stadiums capacity were between 18,000 and 26,000 which is probably just about perfect size for a soccer stadium. I think in Canada we would have to build a bunch of stadiums from scratch since many cities only have CFL stadiums we could use that are to big and the Lines might not beable to come off for soccer games.

ag futbol
12-02-2009, 08:29 PM
If we are really craving Canadian content, the V's cup is the way to go, because there is no way i'd want to be hitched to smaller Canadian cities in keeping a league floating.

Demand for soccer in Van, Mtl, and Toronto is one thing. In the smaller cities it's something completely different and IMO nowhere near the level needed to sustain a decent professional club.

side note: although Australia is of comparable size, their population distribution is wonky to one side ... keeping travel costs moderate in comparison.

Beach_Red
12-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Maybe TFC would go out and sign some great players, but the Halifax team or Regina team would probably have less than 2.1 million to spend (current MLS cap) on players, so the quality would suffer a lot. Also, I think it's more legit to be in a league with 18-20 teams (MLS in a few years) rather than a 10 team league, as would probably be the max that could be sustained in Canada.

10-12 teams is probably the max that could be sustained in Canada (though Toronto could probably support 2-3 on its own), but if the CFL can have a salary cap of $4.2million there's really no reason why a Canadian soccer league couldn't get to that point.

It's possible that a 12 team Canadian league with a $4 millin salary cap could happen sooner than a 20 team US league with the same salary levels.

There's really not much competitin for the sports dollars in most Canadian cities, there aren't baseball teams and basketball teams and not much interest in college sports. If Regina and Winnipeg and Calgary and Edmonton and Hamilton can afford $4 million for CFL salaries, sell out their stadiums and get decent TV ratings, there's really no reason why they couldn't do that for soccer.

Blizzard
12-02-2009, 09:50 PM
If we are really craving Canadian content, the V's cup is the way to go, because there is no way i'd want to be hitched to smaller Canadian cities in keeping a league floating.

Demand for soccer in Van, Mtl, and Toronto is one thing. In the smaller cities it's something completely different and IMO nowhere near the level needed to sustain a decent professional club.

side note: although Australia is of comparable size, their population distribution is wonky to one side ... keeping travel costs moderate in comparison.

Agreed. It is incredibly unlikely that our Tier 2 population centres will ever support soccer at an MLS level. As you say, Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto will exist on a totally different plane.

It would make absolutely no sense to mix Tier 1 and Tier 2 in the hope that Tier 2 will rise to Tier 1.

The V's Cup is absolutely the way to go.

With no offence intended towards those who would love to see a Canadian only league, it is unrealistic to believe that a league of this sort can exist at an MLS level and as for a $4 million salary cap, there's just no way in the world that can ever happen.

A Canadian Soccer League would only exist at a minor league level, perhaps something like the AHL.

It's fine to dream though.

Kilgore Trout
12-03-2009, 01:21 AM
Hey guys, first post here.

A Canadian league is never going to happen. Maybe 200 years into the future.

I think a sort of Canadian division within the MLS could work. But I prefer just a regular table.

Macksam
12-03-2009, 08:51 AM
i dont like the idea of the NASL becoming a farm league either. I prefer the idea of it being a 2nd Division sort of idea, much like USL-1 was. Its the closest we will probably get to a relegation format. And i would like to play NASL teams for US Open Cup and Canada Championship for Concacaf Champions League spots.

If we have farm teams, put them in a different league, not in NASL!
I don't think anyone has outright said it's going to be a farm team. While they will have some U-23 residency players, I bet their main goal is to be competitive first and foremost.

Explain.

Please don't say Columbus. This so called rivalry is fake! The point of this rivalry was to get TFC fans coming to Columbus to help fill out their stadium so that they can make some money.
I was never going to mention Columbus, but people in the US northeast do "care" about Toronto when we play them in sports.

jloome
12-03-2009, 01:13 PM
Hey guys, first post here.

A Canadian league is never going to happen. Maybe 200 years into the future.

I think a sort of Canadian division within the MLS could work. But I prefer just a regular table.

There are multiple business people already planning it. They're just opting to take the USL2 route if necessary as path of least resistance to getting pro soccer across the country again.

The only two problems with pro soccer in Canada have always been, and continue to be, distance costs related to travel, and lack of venues. The fanbases are there.

People forget that teams below the premiership in England routinely survive on fewer than 10,000 fans per game. If they can, anyone can. Hard costs are expensive as hell there. If Wycombe Wanderers can survive (albeit barely) on 5,000 fans a game and pay their players, obviously a team can survive in London, in Halifax, in Thunder Bay, in Regina, in lots of second-tier sized cities.

Rudi
12-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Explain.

Please don't say Columbus. This so called rivalry is fake! The point of this rivalry was to get TFC fans coming to Columbus to help fill out their stadium so that they can make some money.
You do realize that it was us (the supporters groups) who started that ball rolling by targeting the 2008 season opener as a huge event, right?

The rivalry grew from the grassroots, and is now very real.

Cashcleaner
12-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Let's not forget FIFA's position on domestic leagues. The organization could very well demand that we form a Canadian Pro League of our own if the sport does become as popular as we all hope.

tfcleeds
12-03-2009, 01:57 PM
There are multiple business people already planning it. They're just opting to take the USL2 route if necessary as path of least resistance to getting pro soccer across the country again.

The only two problems with pro soccer in Canada have always been, and continue to be, distance costs related to travel, and lack of venues. The fanbases are there.

People forget that teams below the premiership in England routinely survive on fewer than 10,000 fans per game. If they can, anyone can. Hard costs are expensive as hell there. If Wycombe Wanderers can survive (albeit barely) on 5,000 fans a game and pay their players, obviously a team can survive in London, in Halifax, in Thunder Bay, in Regina, in lots of second-tier sized cities.

Not quite sure I agree. The only reason teams like Wycombe survive (and survival is a key word these days in the lower leagues in England) is because there is a firmly entrenched footy culture there, and most of the teams have been around for 100 years. Much like hockey in Canada, you can imagine a town in Saskatchewan with a population of 5-10K supporting a hockey team because the culture is firmly engrained there.

I'm not sure this soccer culture exists in Canada yet, at least, its not where we want it to be, and I don't think cities like Halifax or Thunder Bay could support a franchise, not at this point in time anyway. They aren't exactly what you would call soccer hotbeds. Halifax maybe, because there are no pro sports there, but I think for now, MLS is the right step. Certainly cities like Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, London, Hamilton or Victoria could support a franchise in a Canadian league or expanded USL, but beyond that, I don't see it. We've already been down the CSL road. Soccer is going to have to massively increase its profile in the Canadian sports psyche before a Canadian league is really feasible again.

Do I think we could replicate what Australia has done sometime down the road? Absolutely. They are very similar to us in many respects, also the fact that soccer is a growth sport there, and has traditionally not seen the level of popularity that other sports have, like Aussie rules, or rugby union. But that day is still some time away if you ask me. Much like the US and Australia, I think the success of our national team holds the key to a Canadian league.

Beach_Red
12-03-2009, 02:30 PM
The only two problems with pro soccer in Canada have always been, and continue to be, distance costs related to travel, and lack of venues. The fanbases are there.




This is very true. The sports market in this country is really underserved.

And the culture is changing. In terms of soccer it's pretty much already done.

LittleOzzy
12-03-2009, 03:47 PM
I don't see a strictly Canadian league starting up any time soon. I do think that within the NASL we could see alot of Canadian teams though and that would be a great start.

After Vancouver and Montreal move up into MLS I could see Ottawa, Hamilton, Halifax, Quebec City, Edmonton, Winnipeg and Calgary all having a team within the NASL in the next 10 years.

I think as the NASL grows so will soccer support in this country, and that's the main reason I don't want to see the top 3 Canadian MLS teams use it as a farm system.

If within 5 to 10 years the NASL has 7 Canadian teams and 7 or 8 American teams I would consider it a great success. It would also be great if the top Canadian team each year had a chance of playing the MLS clubs for the Canadian Championship turning it into a 4 team tournament.

jloome
12-03-2009, 05:38 PM
Not quite sure I agree. The only reason teams like Wycombe survive (and survival is a key word these days in the lower leagues in England) is because there is a firmly entrenched footy culture there, and most of the teams have been around for 100 years. Much like hockey in Canada, you can imagine a town in Saskatchewan with a population of 5-10K supporting a hockey team because the culture is firmly engrained there.

I'm not sure this soccer culture exists in Canada yet, at least, its not where we want it to be, and I don't think cities like Halifax or Thunder Bay could support a franchise, not at this point in time anyway. They aren't exactly what you would call soccer hotbeds. Halifax maybe, because there are no pro sports there, but I think for now, MLS is the right step. Certainly cities like Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, London, Hamilton or Victoria could support a franchise in a Canadian league or expanded USL, but beyond that, I don't see it. We've already been down the CSL road. Soccer is going to have to massively increase its profile in the Canadian sports psyche before a Canadian league is really feasible again.

Do I think we could replicate what Australia has done sometime down the road? Absolutely. They are very similar to us in many respects, also the fact that soccer is a growth sport there, and has traditionally not seen the level of popularity that other sports have, like Aussie rules, or rugby union. But that day is still some time away if you ask me. Much like the US and Australia, I think the success of our national team holds the key to a Canadian league.

Thunder Bay just won the PDL title a year ago. I'm pretty sure they could get the low-thousands required to support a USL2 team, as we're not talking a huge leap in quality from what's already there.

Obviously, I'm not talking about small towns, so the "no culture" argument doesn't really fly.

The CSL failed because of poor management and a lack of a long term ability to affiliate with a credible pro league, along with travel costs. The credible league now existsw in MLS, because it has two, soon three, Canadian franchises already.

And there are ways of dealing with travel issues.

In the long run "football community culture" is what will sell soccer in North America, as it does everywhere else, not the level of competitiveness on the field. But first, towns and small cities need something tangible for their players to aspire to. MLS isn't far away from filling that niche, immediatley putting those former USL2 teams --and their communities -- one step from the biggest league.

Their team may not be able to get their (yet) but their players sure can, and that system of local talent promotion has kept boht minor league baseball and hockey going for years.

As for it having to "massively increase" in profile, it doesn't need to. It's already massive. It's just that everyone who supports it here watches or follows teams in Europe, because we didn't have a credible pro alternative. Many in the U.S., particularly the Latino community, still haven't bought into MLS and instead follow teams in Mexico or Europe.

But the success of Seattle and Toronto is purely due to the "football community culture," not Sam Cronin's dazzling footwork.

james
12-03-2009, 05:50 PM
i think Canada could support a league only if they had the venues. Its almost like if they build it, they will come. But built in proper stadiums in actual cities, not in the middle of bum fuck no where like some MLS teams. But Canada just doesnt have the proper venues, and it seems to take years to get stadiums planned, and built. To get a league going we would need new 15-20,000 seat stadiums in cities like Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec City, Halifx. And really we dont got that many millionaires ready to put money up to build these stadiums in all these cities. Without these venues the league wouldn't last or at least it wouldnt beable to survive on a level of MLS competetion.

ag futbol
12-03-2009, 06:12 PM
Let's not forget FIFA's position on domestic leagues. The organization could very well demand that we form a Canadian Pro League of our own if the sport does become as popular as we all hope.
FIFA's long on demands, short on the will to impose them because of the backlash they would cause.

The rules FIFA lay out are outdated and grounded by tradition. We've seen clubs rally against these in the form of things like G14 or the old firm looking at joining the EPL.

The token FIFA dunce might make the occasional suggestion (ex. women wearing hot pants) but it will be ignored as usual as they have no practical purpose. The businessmen control the clubs and the money and FIFA would be wise to keep out of the way if they want to keep their racket going on the international circut. Edit: sorry if that came across as slighly douchy, i just think FIFA is all talk no action on this kind of stuff.


Agreed. It is incredibly unlikely that our Tier 2 population centres will ever support soccer at an MLS level. As you say, Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto will exist on a totally different plane.

Absolutely!

And when we are talking about this it simply isn't just the size of Mtl, Vancouver, and Toronto that makes the difference. There is A LOT less interest in the sport in general outside of these areas.

james
12-03-2009, 06:21 PM
Thunder Bay just won the PDL title a year ago. I'm pretty sure they could get the low-thousands required to support a USL2 team, as we're not talking a huge leap in quality from what's already there.

Obviously, I'm not talking about small towns, so the "no culture" argument doesn't really fly.

The CSL failed because of poor management and a lack of a long term ability to affiliate with a credible pro league, along with travel costs. The credible league now existsw in MLS, because it has two, soon three, Canadian franchises already.

And there are ways of dealing with travel issues.

In the long run "football community culture" is what will sell soccer in North America, as it does everywhere else, not the level of competitiveness on the field. But first, towns and small cities need something tangible for their players to aspire to. MLS isn't far away from filling that niche, immediatley putting those former USL2 teams --and their communities -- one step from the biggest league.

Their team may not be able to get their (yet) but their players sure can, and that system of local talent promotion has kept boht minor league baseball and hockey going for years.

As for it having to "massively increase" in profile, it doesn't need to. It's already massive. It's just that everyone who supports it here watches or follows teams in Europe, because we didn't have a credible pro alternative. Many in the U.S., particularly the Latino community, still haven't bought into MLS and instead follow teams in Mexico or Europe.

But the success of Seattle and Toronto is purely due to the "football community culture," not Sam Cronin's dazzling footwork.



:lol: That is so true!

james
12-03-2009, 06:23 PM
FIFA's long on demands, short on the will to impose them because of the backlash they would cause.

The rules FIFA lay out are outdated and grounded by tradition. We've seen clubs rally against these in the form of things like G14 or the old firm looking at joining the EPL.

The token FIFA dunce might make the occasional suggestion (ex. women wearing hot pants) but it will be ignored as usual as they have no practical purpose. The businessmen control the clubs and the money and FIFA would be wise to keep out of the way if they want to keep their racket going on the international circut.


Absolutely!

And when we are talking about this it simply isn't just the size of Mtl, Vancouver, and Toronto that makes the difference. There is A LOT less interest in the sport in general outside of these areas.

this is probably true. But the hope is as Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto soccer teams grow, games will be shown on TV across Canada, and i guess the hope is that interrest will soon follow in other smaller Canadian Cities!

james
12-03-2009, 06:31 PM
Are the US teams drawing 20K? Don't underestimate Canada's potential. Soccer is very popular in Canada. Yes, soccer is even more popular in Canada than it is in USA. If we have a pro league, it will just grow even more. Also a lot of Canadian cities don't have many sports teams...so having a pro soccer team in those cities wouldn't be such a bad idea as long you market league/teams right. BTW, I think Toronto/GTA is capable of having 2 or 3 teams. All it takes is money and ambition (sadly what most Canadians lack) to get this done.

MLS is a weird league overall. Their rules are dumb and this league isn't going to help Canadian teams out unless they change the rules (academy rules especially). If we truly want the game to grow in Canada and develop our own players, then we need our own league to meet the potential.

P.S. This has nothing to do with being anti-american. It has to do with being pro-Canadian and having a backbone. As long the game is pro-canadian, the Canadians will come out to support their own. (Example, CFL have better ratings than NFL in Canada).


just to throw in there Canada did have the Under 20's in 2007 and we had the highest attendence the tournament has ever had!

Macksam
12-04-2009, 10:24 AM
i think Canada could support a league only if they had the venues. Its almost like if they build it, they will come. But built in proper stadiums in actual cities, not in the middle of bum fuck no where like some MLS teams. But Canada just doesnt have the proper venues, and it seems to take years to get stadiums planned, and built. To get a league going we would need new 15-20,000 seat stadiums in cities like Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Quebec City, Halifx. And really we dont got that many millionaires ready to put money up to build these stadiums in all these cities. Without these venues the league wouldn't last or at least it wouldnt beable to survive on a level of MLS competetion.
One way would be for us to win the bid to host the women's world cup in 2015. The government than would allocate us money for venues for these cities. Here's hoping to our Women's World Cup bid being accepted.:drinking:

Cashcleaner
12-04-2009, 10:47 AM
FIFA's long on demands, short on the will to impose them because of the backlash they would cause.

The rules FIFA lay out are outdated and grounded by tradition. We've seen clubs rally against these in the form of things like G14 or the old firm looking at joining the EPL.

The token FIFA dunce might make the occasional suggestion (ex. women wearing hot pants) but it will be ignored as usual as they have no practical purpose. The businessmen control the clubs and the money and FIFA would be wise to keep out of the way if they want to keep their racket going on the international circut. Edit: sorry if that came across as slighly douchy, i just think FIFA is all talk no action on this kind of stuff.

That's a fair point, and no, it doesn't sound douchey. Trust me, I know how toothless FIFA can be at times, but I think it they really wanted to make a big fuss about this issue and draw up a formal demand, I think our options would be somewhat limited. For the record, I don't think that will happen, just throwing out hypotheticals.

Blizzard
12-04-2009, 04:35 PM
just to throw in there Canada did have the Under 20's in 2007 and we had the highest attendence the tournament has ever had!

True, in total, sort of. Don't forget that for double-headers, the organizers would count the total twice!

If 20k showed up for a double-header, it went into the books as 2 x 20k = 40k.

Also, more teams are in the tournament now than there were in previous years so there were more games in total.

Mexico in 1983 was way ahead of us in average attendance per match. They had 32 matches with an average of 36k.

We had 52 matches with an average of about 23k.

For reference, the recent Egypt tournament averaged about 25k per match.

This is all way off topic but the misconception should be known. For total attendance, many of our spectators were counted twice!!!

We still did well though.

Now I'm going be outspoken.

Anybody who puts money into building 15-20k stadiums for soccer in places in this country where pro soccer has never existed should probably be put into straight-jackets because they could very well find themselves wanting to do physical harm to themselves when they realize how much money they've just thrown away.