North End Expansion

[ensco]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/city-set-to-vote-on-proposed-bmo-field-expansion/article1382261/

Farewell beer garden, old friend.

Glad to hear that some dough is being spent on washrooms.

[SQUIRREL]

wow, it's coming sooner rather than later.

[CoachGT]

Heard this on the fan this morning too.

[ensco]

Interesting, they're estimating $70,000 in revenue, which is more than $50/ticket.

Cue supporter group backlash/vitriol in 3, 2, 1.........

[Phil]

I havent been able to read the article yet but my understanding is that these seats wont be available for relocations.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Itll be interesting because there will be alot of people on the waiting lists that will support this being built

[Parkdale]

Interesting, they're estimating $70,000 in revenue, which is more than $50/ticket.

Cue supporter group backlash/vitriol in 3, 2, 1.........


well if people had been paying attention.....

it's been made clear that this stand is NOT going to be another supporters section.
That info has been said in a number of different ways, but some people still like
to dream of this 'promised land' that isn't actually going to happen.

I'm quite happy where I am.

[rocker]

good, another obstacle to the Argos coming in :)

No possible north endzone if this is built. The north was the last frontier for perhaps an expanded CFL field (if they just plopped it in without centering it and didn't move the south end) done on the cheap. This adds hundreds of thousands of dollars (a million maybe??) now to the value of the stands (if the argos had been willing to pay to knock stands down and refit the field).

But generally I'm glad for this. the beer garden has come to actually cause fewer people to sit in their seats. One of the great things about a small stadium is the seats are packed, so the beer garden defeats that purpose in some sections. TV presentation is important too... and there should be more people actually in their seats, plus the north end will look more professional.. not this empty end.

[flatpicker]

But I can't understand why they wouldn't want to encourage Supporter Groups to relocate into the North.

It would concentrate our efforts which makes for a more intense display of support, and that would make the fan experience even better (which from an MLSE point of view, is good for selling tickets)

Also, have all the supporter groups in one area would make it easier for MLSE to "manage" us. While that sounds like a negative thing for us, it wouldn't be all bad. It just means that they would have less headaches with security around the stadium (we know the issues we have had with security). It would reduce complaints from fans who are stuck in supporter areas that don't enjoy that kind of enthusiasm. Basically it would make life easier for everyone concerned. I'm surprised MLSE wouldn't be all over that.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

To be honest, what I would have rather they done with this is actually designate it a 'supporters' stand; ie, what Philly have, a stand where you have to be a member of a supporters' group to buy tickets. IMO it's quite silly what we have now, supporters just spread about the stadium, and IMO the NEE, RPB and U-Sec should all be together. We'd be that much louder, and that much more coordinated. That means better support for the team, which everyone should be for.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

But I can't understand why they wouldn't want to encourage Supporter Groups to relocate into the North.

It would concentrate our efforts which makes for a more intense display of support, and that would make the fan experience even better (which from an MLSE point of view, is good for selling tickets)

Also, have all the supporter groups in one area would make it easier for MLSE to "manage" us. While that sounds like a negative thing for us, it wouldn't be all bad. It just means that they would have less headaches with security around the stadium (we know the issues we have had with security). It would reduce complaints from fans who are stuck in supporter areas that don't enjoy that kind of enthusiasm. Basically it would make life easier for everyone concerned. I'm surprised MLSE wouldn't be all over that.
You, sir, have read my mind. It would also solve the problem of people who want to stand, wave flags and/or sing being told to sit down by other fans and by security. It would be the best scenario possible for all parties, IMO.

[denime]

MLSE would pay to install the extra seats at the north end of the stadium, along with upgrades to washrooms used by FC fans.:drum:

[Parkdale]

But I can't understand why they wouldn't want to encourage Supporter Groups to relocate into the North.

It would concentrate our efforts which makes for a more intense display of support, and that would make the fan experience even better (which from an MLSE point of view, is good for selling tickets)

let's put on our logic caps for a second

- supporters tickets are less (way less) than normal seats. Supporters would not move if it meant paying 150% of their current cost, let alone 3x as much.

- the idea of moving all the supporters would be a massive undertaking for the ticket sales staff. Like HUGE!

- some supporters would not want to move, so it's not like all the vocal support would be centralized in one area.

- the stadium looks better (to TV and non-supporters) with pockets of support around the stadium, instead of just in one spot.

- with something like the 'Thank You' banner, it covered a much bigger space than this new stand could possibly be. Even if there are quiet pockets in the south end (like 116-118), they are still involved in the big things, and that's a much better 'concentrated' area than a small stand where the beer garden was.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

^ All good points, and especially about the size of the new stand, I hadn't thought of that.

Still, while having pockets of support does LOOK better, having everyone concentrated in one area SOUNDS much, much better, and 99% of the rest of the world's football clubs have their support organized that way.. Not to mention, even if the new stand is smaller, we'd still be able to pull off a lot more tifos if we had one whole stand where everyone wanted to participate. When we've tried tifos that require the whole south end's participation, like card tifos and ones with strips of fabric, they've gone down like a falling anvil on Bugs Bunny.

I think the advantages far outweigh those problems.

[flatpicker]

I think the advantages far outweigh those problems.


yup!

[Parkdale]

Still, while having pockets of support does LOOK better, having everyone concentrated in one area SOUNDS much, much better, and 99% of the rest of the world's football clubs have their support organized that way..

you have to be careful with generalizations like that. (especially when it's incorrect).

Many of the best supported clubs have multiple supporters groups, and they are in different parts of the stadium. Benfica has two big groups, Marseilles has two big stands (North and South) filled with separate groups. I could go on with the examples, but I really don't need to because almost every club that grew an organic fanbase has multiple groups.

[Parkdale]

yup!

still, it's not going to happen. fact. full stop. end of thread.

this falls into the same "not even worth debating" argument as the whole flare thing.

[ManUtd4ever]

I would prefer to see the North End designated as a supporters section, but I am still very relieved to hear of this development. BMO Field should now remain a soccer specific stadium and with the grass pitch and the North Stand up next season, it will be far more pleasing to the eye as well. This was a brilliant response to the the Argo threat by MLSE...

[JonO]

Interesting, they're estimating $70,000 in revenue, which is more than $50/ticket.

Cue supporter group backlash/vitriol in 3, 2, 1.........
It's a poorly constructed article. I couldn't tell for certain, but I think the estimated $70,000 in revenue include food/beverages and is not based on tickets alone.

[billyfly]

good, another obstacle to the Argos coming in :)

No possible north endzone if this is built. The north was the last frontier for perhaps an expanded CFL field (if they just plopped it in without centering it and didn't move the south end) done on the cheap. This adds hundreds of thousands of dollars (a million maybe??) now to the value of the stands (if the argos had been willing to pay to knock stands down and refit the field).

But generally I'm glad for this. the beer garden has come to actually cause fewer people to sit in their seats. One of the great things about a small stadium is the seats are packed, so the beer garden defeats that purpose in some sections. TV presentation is important too... and there should be more people actually in their seats, plus the north end will look more professional.. not this empty end.

Not a coincidence. This is a counter-move no doubt.

[nascarguy]

so is the northend going to be for people who want to bring in flags and stand for the whole game or for people who don't.

I do not like the view from the southend so I would never move to the northend

[Oldtimer]

Not a coincidence. This is a counter-move no doubt.

... a great one, at that.

[Super]

This is wonderful news. Not only is it going to give 1200+ more people the chance to see the team, but it will also make it harder for the Argos to move into BMO - AND it will improve accoustics. Think back to the temporary stand built in the North End before the Real Madrid game - the atmosphere was amazing.

[Roogsy]

Too bad it won't be allowed for relocation. It would be good to get non-supporters out of the south stands.

That being said...I am glad the beer garden is being done away with. Having that empty space full of people not in their seats never made sense to me.

I have no complaints. :eek: Shocking I know. See Paul? I can be reasonable. LOL!

[rocker]

i didn't go to the RM game, but they had the stand up for Puerto Rico and I loved it being there. added more atmosphere (those people rocked too) and it just looked better to have a stand there.

[scut farkus]

... a great one, at that.

Yup! I really think this is a more of a "Make-BMO-a-Permanent-SSS" move than it is a revenue or increased-capacity move. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the north end at the RM game hold about 3000?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

you have to be careful with generalizations like that. (especially when it's incorrect).

Many of the best supported clubs have multiple supporters groups, and they are in different parts of the stadium. Benfica has two big groups, Marseilles has two big stands (North and South) filled with separate groups. I could go on with the examples, but I really don't need to because almost every club that grew an organic fanbase has multiple groups.
As you said; two BIG stands filled with separate groups. As it is, we're currently scattered throughout the stadium with a little pocket in the southeast corner and in the northwest. At this point, it'd be better to have everyone together.

[mastermixer]

What if they are doing this to push the north end back and allow room for a CFL endzone? :facepalm:

[ManUtd4ever]

What if they are doing this to push the north end back and allow room for a CFL endzone? :facepalm:

Not a chance...

[Parkdale]

As you said; two BIG stands filled with separate groups. As it is, we're currently scattered throughout the stadium with a little pocket in the southeast corner and in the northwest. At this point, it'd be better to have everyone together.


you want more details on how you're statement was wrong? okay :D

in ONE of the big stands at the Velodrome in Marseilles.


Virage Nord-Patrice de Peretti The North Curve is home to the Yankee Nord Marseille, Marseille Trop Puissant, Fanatics, and Dodgers supporters associations who buy up the tickets at the start of each season and sell them on to their members. The Virage Nord is situated next to the away enclosure which is protected by high fences. In 2002, the Virage Nord was officially given the name of Patrice de Peretti (1972-2000), the late founder and leader of the supporters group Marseille Trop Puissant.



^ that's 5 supporters groups in the same stands. The idea that 99% of team have one supporters group in one stand is just incorrect.

[Redcoe15]

This is wonderful news. Not only is it going to give 1200+ more people the chance to see the team, but it will also make it harder for the Argos to move into BMO - AND it will improve accoustics. Think back to the temporary stand built in the North End before the Real Madrid game - the atmosphere was amazing.
+1 :D

[C.Ronaldo]

not making this a supporters section is beyond stupid

[ManUtd4ever]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/morikvendi/LiveJournal/TorontoFC-RealMadrid.png







:scarf::flare::drum::drinking:

[James17930]

This is absolutely fantastic. It's 100% to keep BMO SSS.

I think you'd have to agree MLSE are stepping up here and really doing what the fans want.

[Parkdale]

not making this a supporters section is beyond stupid

that's a relative point of view.

Sure we want more supporters sections in the stadium, but supporters sections don't generate the income that non-supporters generate. hell, if BMO added 10 new private boxes that could equal hundreds of thousands of dollars.

it's an argument of opinions.

[Roogsy]

It would be nice if it was a supporters section but at this point, I am more concerned about MLSE securing the venue as soccer specific only. This helps in that regard. And adds to the atmosphere as the Beer Garden currently doesn't do anything to help generate atmosphere. This solution is not perfect but it's better than what is currently in place and sometimes, you just have to forego the complaining and be accepting of the baby steps we are taking to becoming a bigger and better club.

[flatpicker]

Parky and co...
Please know that even if this is not going to be a Supporter Section, I am still ecstatic about having the beer garden removed.
The north seats will be a welcomed addition to the look, sound, and feel of BMO.
I just want my cake and eat it too!

[Parkdale]

Parky and co...
Please know that even if this is not going to be a Supporter Section, I am still ecstatic about having the beer garden removed.
The north seats will be a welcomed addition to the look, sound, and feel of BMO.
I just want my cake and eat it too!


we're in agreement.

getting more people into BMO for the games is an improvement, no matter what designation their section will be.

[Whoop]

Just to touch on the supporters group debate and all in one stand, etc.

The funny thing is I know that with a lot of clubs there are more than one group, because groups end up splitting due to internal conflicts. LOL

i.e. one group starts, there's a disagreement, those who splinter off form another group... I remember my cousin telling me the stories of what happened with Sporting. Juve Leo was started in the 70s by the sons of the former presidents of the Club there was some issue and one of the former leaders of Juve Leo started the Ultras (Directivo Ultras).

There are many more examples of that.

[JDG]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/morikvendi/LiveJournal/TorontoFC-RealMadrid.png







:scarf::flare::drum::drinking:

That's a great capture!

I've trimmed out the TV formatting, and resized the image for anyone els who likes it.
It's still a .png image - if anyone prefers a jpeg, let me know & I will be happy to covert it for you :D

http://i47.tinypic.com/2uj021x.png

[brad]

What if they are doing this to push the north end back and allow room for a CFL endzone? :facepalm:

Article says MLSE are footing the bill.

Why would MLSE pay to retrofit the stadium for the Argos, and detract from the investment they are making (grass) in soccer?

[Fort York Redcoat]

So weird.

Before the weekend it looked dire how serious the Argos move was. Now this counter makes it look dead in the water. Hope so.

[Parkdale]

Just to touch on the supporters group debate and all in one stand, etc.

The funny thing is I know that with a lot of clubs there are more than one group, because groups end up splitting due to internal conflicts. LOL

i.e. one group starts, there's a disagreement, those who splinter off form another group... I remember my cousin telling me the stories of what happened with Sporting. Juve Leo was started in the 70s by the sons of the former presidents of the Club there was some issue and one of the former leaders of Juve Leo started the Ultras (Directivo Ultras).

There are many more examples of that.


exactly.

when people talk about 'unite all the supporters groups' I can't help but think that they need a history lesson. Supporters groups can (and will) have different identities, but as long as they come together when it counts (like the 'Thank You' banner) then everything's good.

Being united in the stands is the goal. After that, there is a difference of opinion and point-of-view that will make groups unique.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Article says MLSE are footing the bill.

Why would MLSE pay to retrofit the stadium for the Argos, and detract from the investment they are making (grass) in soccer?

and I think if they were builing the movable stand it would cost a lot more. Even if they were moving it back once for good it would look different in the proposal. This is a counter fer sure.

[Always There]

All of the supporters are great as is. I never really see the problem with new people coming in now and again and not really knowing all the chants. Most of the time people try to get into it. Some games are going to be better than others, but generally speaking things are great.

I'm not an "official" RPB, but still do my part, so I don't like the idea that you have to be in a group to get tickets. 111 and the top of 110 weren't intended to be the supporter sections that they've evolved into. Who's to say the same thing won't happen to the North end? The North west corner will certainly be close to the NEE. With only 1200 seats it will be intimate as is. It's very possible that it could naturally be a lively place.

[Whoop]

^^
Honestly it will all depend on the cost of the tickets.

Fortunately or unfortunately.

[brad]

and I think if they were builing the movable stand it would cost a lot more. Even if they were moving it back once for good it would look different in the proposal. This is a counter fer sure.

If it was movable, I'm sure they'd just buy, or arrange long term rental for a stand like they had for RM. There would be no need to go to Council for that.

[Always There]

^^
Honestly it will all depend on the cost of the tickets.

Fortunately or unfortunately.

Well, they are what they are. Tickets behind the goal line. I don't think they will be $50 a game as was speculated. That would be around a $750 to $700 season ticket.

Even so. If your buying tickets to sit behind the goal line I'm imagining it's because you really want to be there.

Any way you look at it, it's great news. The picture shows how great it looks. I remember really liking the North stand last year.

[billyfly]

I'd like for them to "eat" the space between the stadium and the Food building. Have it closed for game day festivities but open otherwise. They do something like that now but I'd like to see something more permanent.

[deltox]

i love the expansion idea. and i know this is also geared at squashing the "Argos to Bmo" idea.

but i think it could have been more seats that just 1200.

why couldnt it be the north end plus filling in the corners?

[Suds]

Too bad it won't be allowed for relocation. It would be good to get non-supporters out of the south stands.

That being said...I am glad the beer garden is being done away with. Having that empty space full of people not in their seats never made sense to me.

I have no complaints. :eek: Shocking I know. See Paul? I can be reasonable. LOL!

By this do you mean relocation controlled by supporters groups or relocation by existing SSH in general?

[denime]

What if they are doing this to push the north end back and allow room for a CFL endzone? :facepalm:

They can't ,in order to accommodate they have to push both ends by 25-30 meters.Center of the field must stay in the center of the east/west stands,you can't build offset field in the relation to the stands.


"It doesn't fit a regulation CFL field," Anselmi noted. The question then becomes, is the CFL willing to lose the distinctly "Canadian" nature of their game to accommodate the Argos playing in a smaller and American-style football field?

[Roogsy]

By this do you mean relocation controlled by supporters groups or relocation by existing SSH in general?

^ I dunno...

[Parkdale]

I'd like for them to "eat" the space between the stadium and the Food building. Have it closed for game day festivities but open otherwise. They do something like that now but I'd like to see something more permanent.


When they did that last season it really helped the lineups at the gates, and made more of a 'festival atmosphere' out there.

[Suds]

^ I dunno...

Well ... MLSE has generally allowed existing SSH the opportunity to relocate before opening up seats to the waiting list. I hope this would still be the case.

I'm not sure I would mover there, but it would be nice to have the option.

[ensco]

Well, they are what they are. Tickets behind the goal line. I don't think they will be $50 a game as was speculated. That would be around a $750 to $700 season ticket.

Even so. If your buying tickets to sit behind the goal line I'm imagining it's because you really want to be there.

.

Don't sell MLSE short. They'll offer table service or something, call it Platinum Supporters Section, and get a premium price for it.

[billyfly]

When they did that last season it really helped the lineups at the gates, and made more of a 'festival atmosphere' out there.

Exactly. It was great.

[Roogsy]

Well ... MLSE has generally allowed existing SSH the opportunity to relocate before opening up seats to the waiting list. I hope this would still be the case.

I'm not sure I would mover there, but it would be nice to have the option.

I hope they do allow current SSH to move in before opening it up. Who knows what their plans are. What I do hope is that when the new section is here, measure are put in place to get members into member sections.

[Suds]

Don't sell MLSE short. They offer table service or something, call it Platinum Supporters Section, and get a premium price for it.

Good point. The tables in front of the beer garden go for approx. $1,800/seat. So, while a stand may not be a table with your own servers taking care of you, if some additional spiffs are tied to sitting there they could justify a higher price.

If the North Stand become a reality I hope they get rid of the tables and have the stand as close to the pitch as possible. Not likely I know due to the lost revenue; but it would be nicer.

[nascarguy]

Good point. The tables in front of the beer garden go for approx. $1,800/seat. So, while a stand may not be a table with your own servers taking care of you, if some additional spiffs are tied to sitting there they could justify a higher price.

If the North Stand become a reality I hope they get rid of the tables and have the stand as close to the pitch as possible. Not likely I know due to the lost revenue; but it would be nicer.
I was talking with Cesar from tfc last month after moving my seat and he seems to think that the tables are staying and the stands with be put behide them. I think the north end stand will be for gameday sale and not for season ticket holders

Regular MLS Game 26$ season ticket holder $19

[Oldtimer]

I imagine that they will reserve some seats for away supporters. Once MTL is in they will need more than 100-150 seats.

[Suds]

I imagine that they will reserve some seats for away supporters. Once MTL is in they will need more than 100-150 seats.

If they moved away supporters there I think a lot of people would take that into account before moving. I know I would.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

you want more details on how you're statement was wrong? okay :D

in ONE of the big stands at the Velodrome in Marseilles.




^ that's 5 supporters groups in the same stands. The idea that 99% of team have one supporters group in one stand is just incorrect.
When did I say ONE group? If I did, then my bad. I meant all the groups massed in one stand.

[nascarguy]

i bet tfc will only let about 30 to 20% of the northend stand be sold to poeple on the waiting line. The 70 to 80% will be for groups sale's and ticketmaster.

[Detroit_TFC]

i bet tfc will only let about 30 to 20% of the northend stand be sold to poeple on the waiting line. The 70 to 80% will be for groups sale's and ticketmaster.

I agree, the FO never planned to have such a small proportion of walkup seats to ST as we have now. This could be good news for the battle against scalpers if people have a better chance to get tickets through the box office. Hopefully, if the scalper's yield and profit goes down, eventually more of those ST will end up in the hands of real supporters.

[menefreghista]

Looks like my theory that this was going to be announced after Season Seat Holder's had their relocation has come true.

[mlsintoronto]

some answers:
- we have asked Ex Place to approve this. According to the Globe article, the city needs to approve in January. All I know is we need to order seats and steel now, if we want to have this ready for next year.
- we likely won't sell as a season ticket. We will try to spread these few seats over a much larger group of TFC fans.
- the design calls for retaining the Carlsberg Patio. The first row of seating will be 9 feet above the patio.
- Roogsy - despite typing "I'm reasonable" on this board, doesn't make it so. As they say on the internets: "Pictures or it didn't happen".
- we hope to close the area between BMO Field and the Food Building for most games (like the Real Madrid and Puerto Rico games in 2009). during the CNE we would have to leave it clear.
- I don't know where the $70k number comes from. I assume it is an annual number to BMO Field.

Details on how we're going to market these seats will become clearer as time goes on...but it is not a complete plan at this time.

[Pigfynn]

some answers:
- we have asked Ex Place to approve this. According to the Globe article, the city needs to approve in January. All I know is we need to order seats and steel now, if we want to have this ready for next year.
- we likely won't sell as a season ticket. We will try to spread these few seats over a much larger group of TFC fans.
- the design calls for retaining the Carlsberg Patio. The first row of seating will be 9 feet above the patio.
- Roogsy - despite typing "I'm reasonable" on this board, doesn't make it so. As they say on the internets: "Pictures or it didn't happen".
- we hope to close the area between BMO Field and the Food Building for most games (like the Real Madrid and Puerto Rico games in 2009). during the CNE we would have to leave it clear.
- I don't know where the $70k number comes from. I assume it is an annual number to BMO Field.

Details on how we're going to market these seats will become clearer as time goes on...but it is not a complete plan at this time.

A much larger group than the sometimes estimated 15,000 people on the waiting list?

[billyfly]

some answers:
- we have asked Ex Place to approve this. According to the Globe article, the city needs to approve in January. All I know is we need to order seats and steel now, if we want to have this ready for next year.
- we likely won't sell as a season ticket. We will try to spread these few seats over a much larger group of TFC fans.
- the design calls for retaining the Carlsberg Patio. The first row of seating will be 9 feet above the patio.
- Roogsy - despite typing "I'm reasonable" on this board, doesn't make it so. As they say on the internets: "Pictures or it didn't happen".
- we hope to close the area between BMO Field and the Food Building for most games (like the Real Madrid and Puerto Rico games in 2009). during the CNE we would have to leave it clear.
- I don't know where the $70k number comes from. I assume it is an annual number to BMO Field.

Details on how we're going to market these seats will become clearer as time goes on...but it is not a complete plan at this time.

It was a great atmosphere in that area Paul.

[rocker]

some answers:
- the design calls for retaining the Carlsberg Patio. The first row of seating will be 9 feet above the patio.


that's interesting. so you'd still have the problem of people leaving their regular seats for the carlsberg patio :(

but would the stand be closer to the edge? the temp stand still had an aisle in front of it so the seats were further back.

i would think the best way to do it would be to have the front row right in line with the current concrete edge of the stand... (so it'd be a roof over the patio right to the edge), then have the entry/exit staircases about midway up the stand rather than at the front.

[pekduck]

thanks Paul

[Hitcho]

I think nascar has a good point here. My guess is also that this season the entire north stand will be game day only tickets. Three good reasons for this:

1. get the damn thing built to stop the argos coming in and worry about details later;
2. higher revenues for the seats this season (no SSH discount) to offset the grass/stand costs; and
3. allow the club to assess depth of demand etc and then decide whether to make the seats SSH next season, decide if they will be designated supporter sections, if so are SGs interested in moving, etc.

This allows the stand to get built, generates decent coin from 2010 onwards instead of 2011, hopefully puts a (big) nail in the Argos to BMO coffin and means that the club can include the north stand in relocations next season if they want to. Don't forget that including the north stand in relocations for next season still means there are 1200 new tickets for the waiting list in the subsequent "new tickets" procedure. Those 1200 new tickets will likely be in more expensive mid-pitch areas, but they will still be available. This plan actually fits with and continues the existing TFC procedure for relocations and new tickets. And it offsets making a decision on whether to designate the stand a supporter section for a full year while the club liaisies with SGs, thinks things through, etc.

Bottom line - build now and deal with fully next off season. Meantime, 1200 more people get to see the grass, JDG etc and with no SSH discount for MLSE to help offset the costs of the above.

If that's how it goes down, then I think it's a good move on all fronts.

[pekduck]

A much larger group than the sometimes estimated 15,000 people on the waiting list?

I'd have more from the in theory 15000 on waiting list and people who want to buy tickets have access to the new seats than have them sold as seasons to a fixed number of people. Better spread.

[ensco]

- the design calls for retaining the Carlsberg Patio. The first row of seating will be 9 feet above the patio.


Perhaps this should now be called the Carlsberg Cave?

[Hitcho]

some answers:
- we have asked Ex Place to approve this. According to the Globe article, the city needs to approve in January. All I know is we need to order seats and steel now, if we want to have this ready for next year.
- we likely won't sell as a season ticket. We will try to spread these few seats over a much larger group of TFC fans.
- the design calls for retaining the Carlsberg Patio. The first row of seating will be 9 feet above the patio.
- Roogsy - despite typing "I'm reasonable" on this board, doesn't make it so. As they say on the internets: "Pictures or it didn't happen".
- we hope to close the area between BMO Field and the Food Building for most games (like the Real Madrid and Puerto Rico games in 2009). during the CNE we would have to leave it clear.
- I don't know where the $70k number comes from. I assume it is an annual number to BMO Field.

Details on how we're going to market these seats will become clearer as time goes on...but it is not a complete plan at this time.

First off, thanks as ever for posting Paul. Appreciate the feedback.

I'm disappointed to hear that the patio will survive. Or rather, that the patio will survive in a form that allows people to stay there and watch the game instead of being in their seats to watch the game. That's a big loss to the atmosphere and visual impact of full seats in the stadium.

Is the "don't sell as season ticket" plan just for 2010 and to be reassessed from 2011 onwards? That would make sense (see my post above).

Great news about the food building area.

Any insight on how this might impact the Argos' squatting attempt?

Roogsy - you gonna take that?! :D

[rocker]

also paul -- what's the proposed shape of the stand? would it simply be a rectangle filling the gap between the two group huts, or would it be shaped like a T and spread out east and west over the roofs of the group huts?

[ensco]

I'm disappointed to hear that the patio will survive.

As I kind of implied in my post above, unless it's in the open air, it'll lose its charm.

Unless it's raining, in which case it'll be packed.

[Pigfynn]

Shouldn't the stand be made as big as possible this time so they don't have to go back and add more(which WILL happen) later?

I mean 1,294 seats is good but if you're going to do something and go through all the agro, why not add 3,000 ish.

or is 1,200 all that can be housed down there?

[Dirk Diggler]

This is potentially good news ... although I still do not like the fact that Carlsberg Patio will remain. Is that a contract issue by any chance? But overall, the addition of any new seats is welcome news.

Also, does this really make a difference in terms of the Argos? Were they not willing to play in a 90 yard field or something?

[Hitcho]

Shouldn't the stand be made as big as possible this time so they don't have to go back and add more(which WILL happen) later?

I mean 1,294 seats is good but if you're going to do something and go through all the Argo, why not add 3,000 ish.

or is 1,200 all that can be housed down there?

fixed! :D:D:D

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

The beer garden is actually staying?

Well, there goes my enthusiasm...

[C.Ronaldo]

Thanks for keeping the beer garden

Its my only escape from my snooze ville seats

[tfc2007]

Whats the difference between the north and south?
that entire south section is already supporters, and it is not fully organized. Why dont we get the south working all together, before we try to expand and have everyone in the north?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

The south is infested with scalpers, who are the main reason the stand can't be coordinated. This would be the perfect chance to get supporters into a dedicated section.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Shouldn't the stand be made as big as possible this time so they don't have to go back and add more(which WILL happen) later?

I mean 1,294 seats is good but if you're going to do something and go through all the agro, why not add 3,000 ish.

or is 1,200 all that can be housed down there?

Doing the least to stop the the Argos and keep their fingers in the patio pie. Fine by me. For now.

mmmmm. pie.

[sulfur]

As an aside, even if this were a plan to extend the north end for a CFL end zone... that would cost insane amounts of money due to the large hunk of concrete there that raises things up above field level for the beer patio. If that were to be extended, the path between BMO and the Food Building would vanish permanently for the beer garden, and that would not fly with the CNE Board.

[ensco]

Almost nothing has surprised me more than the level of agitation/dislike around the beer garden on these boards.

MLSE and the City are probably going to ruin the beer garden with what there doing, so you're all going to get your wish I suspect, but geez, there's a bunch of little old ladies on here.

Do I really need to say that it should be OK for other good fans to enjoy their football in a way that's different than yours?

[Boris]

The south is infested with scalpers, who are the main reason the stand can't be coordinated. This would be the perfect chance to get supporters into a dedicated section.

as a few have said in this thread and phil among others beforehand, relocation to the north is NOT an option. Those seats are being created with a plan in mind. With that said, FO is willing to work with us in getting something worked out in the future. This will not be an overnight project. We will keep everyone posted on these developments.

Again, the North stand will NOT be available to supporter groups

[Parkdale]

Almost nothing has surprised me more than the level of agitation/dislike around the beer garden on these boards.

from some people yes, but not everyone.

for every one person whining in one direction, there's probably 10 keeping quiet the other way.

The beer garden is what it is - a place for people to stand, drink beer, enjoy their friends company and watch the game. I don't see anything wrong with it, and many people are the same. It would be like protesting private boxes - a no-win situation.

if it goes, and is replaced by something better - cool.
if it stays, and people continue to enjoy it - cool.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Almost nothing has surprised me more than the level of agitation/dislike around the beer garden on these boards.

MLSE and the City are probably going to ruin the beer garden with what there doing, so you're all going to get your wish I suspect, but geez, there's a bunch of little old ladies on here.

Do I really need to say that it should be OK for other good fans to enjoy their football in a way that's different than yours?

please don't. People just really want a section of their own.


The little old ladies section. We call ourselves the LOLers.:D

[billyfly]

My only point to Paul B would be to think about the FULL impact of a covered beer garden and rain and the potential crowding and its associated danger.

[rocker]

Do I really need to say that it should be OK for other good fans to enjoy their football in a way that's different than yours?

yes, let's keep the beer garden so that guys can stand 10 feet back at those tables, drink beer, and watch the game on the scoreboard ;)

this is what I'm reacting to. I've seen that numerous times. They might as well watch on TV.

[Parkdale]

and just for a wee bit of perspective:

"One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time."
- Robert Kennedy

[ensco]

yes, let's keep the beer garden so that guys can stand 10 feet back at those tables, drink beer, and watch the game on the scoreboard ;)

this is what I'm reacting to. I've seen that numerous times. They might as well watch on TV.

Last I heard, this was a free country.

[Roogsy]

Roogsy - you gonna take that?! :D

LOL! I have no idea how to show "reasonableness" in a picture. But surely this guy can't be all bad?

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=206&pictureid=2034

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Funnily enough, I didn't expect such vehement defence of the beer garden. I want it to go because, for one thing, a three-sided stadium looks dumb, secondly, because as people said having everyone milling around there instead of in the stands hurts the atmosphere and makes the stadium look emptier, and thirdly, because when they said they were putting in a permanent north stand, I was hoping for more than just a thousand more seats.

mlsintoronto, can you explain why the beer garden has to stay?

[Roogsy]

I am guessing a contract with Carlsberg?

[prizby]

haven't read what all have said

i wonder if the argos wanting to come is the reason why MLSE will put in $2 mil now that way they can block off any on field expansion and keep the field unexpandable for the CFL in hope that the CFL cares enough to not allow the Argos to play on a smaller field

thats my general feeling

[Fort York Redcoat]

Last I heard, this was a free country.

Yes and look at you 2 freely disagreeing.

IAC patio=more beer drunk and another option at the game. Ensco may have friends that would come to the game for that type of atmo. I like the fact ensco is bringing friends. Unless I can't get a ticket to that game.:D But really I'm not at the point where I want exclude a type of fan. I doubt i'd stand next to them but I got no beef unless their throwing patio beers.

[Hitcho]

I am guessing a contract with Carlsberg?

I would guess this plus a quick and effective road block to Argo squatting plans that can be adapted further down the line when the time is right (eg, if and when any carlsberg contract runs out or is up for renewal).

Having said that, I don't think Carlsberg would be that fussed about the beer garden. They'll sell plenty of pints without it. And if you offer them a giant sign in the ground, elevated for maximum effect, instead of the beer garden, or even call the replacement stand "the Carlsberg End" for as long as they sponsor the team/league (complete with signage), then they would probably take that. Similar sales and greater advertising exposure. It's a win for them as well as us.

[CretanBull]

I've never stood in the beer garden, but I don't get why so many people are against it. It's a stadium feature that some people enjoy. I don't think that it hurts the atmosphere at all - it's not as if the kind of person who wants to hang out with friends, talk and drink beer while at the game would be singing and chanting if they were in their seat. I think you could even argue that the beer garden itself has a certain vibe to it that contributes to the over-all game day atmosphere.

[Hitcho]

LOL! I have no idea how to show "reasonableness" in a picture. But surely this guy can't be all bad?

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=206&pictureid=2034

Oh man, that picture is soooo ripe for a caption competition...

"Cheer up Mike, Roogsy can't keep farting like that all night"

[CretanBull]

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=206&pictureid=2034

Totally reasonable.

[ManUtd4ever]

I am fine with the north stand expansion with or without the beer garden. If it has to stay then BMO Field will have a unique look to it. It shouldn't detract from the atmoshphere as we've lived with it since day one...

[Hitcho]

I've never stood in the beer garden, but I don't get why so many people are against it. It's a stadium feature that some people enjoy. I don't think that it hurts the atmosphere at all - it's not as if the kind of person who wants to hang out with friends, talk and drink beer while at the game would be singing and chanting if they were in their seat. I think you could even argue that the beer garden itself has a certain vibe to it that contributes to the over-all game day atmosphere.

Yeah, there's arguments for and against. I totally get the people who find their seats dull but cannot relocate into a better area for them, so use the beer garden instead. It's a good place for them. And for the people who want to chill out with some friends and sink a few beers while they watch the game in a communal environment rather than restricted rowed seating.

On the other hand, I do think a full north stand would imrpove the acoustics a lot (we've seen this with the temp stand last season) and the bottom line is that mroe people in their seats making just a little bit of noise will be an improvement on the atmosphere to some degree or other.

There's also the fact that the stadium just looks better, more professional and more intimidating to away teams with stands at all four ends.

I think the visual and acoustic arguments win out for me (if you want to drink beer in a patio and watch the game then go to a pub and watch it on tv) but I can see why other people tend in a different direction.

[Roogsy]

On the other hand, I do think a full north stand would imrpove the acoustics a lot (we've seen this with the temp stand last season) and the bottom line is that mroe people in their seats making just a little bit of noise will be an improvement on the atmosphere to some degree or other.

There's also the fact that the stadium just looks better, more professional and more intimidating to away teams with stands at all four ends.

I think the visual and acoustic arguments win out for me (if you want to drink beer in a patio and watch the game then go to a pub and watch it on tv) but I can see why other people tend in a different direction.

These are fantastic reasons for the north stand. I like that this is happening even if it doens't mean much for the south stand supporter.

[Hitcho]

mlsintoronto, can you explain why the beer garden has to stay?

Yes, please enlighten us, especially if it means spilling details of a confidential agreement. We won't tell anyone. Honest! :D

[TOBOR !]

to self : I wonder if STs will be offered up to the wait lists for the new seats ?

[Hitcho]

to self : I wonder if STs will be offered up to the wait lists for the new seats ?

Paul B has said no, they will go to a "wider audience". Not sure what that means or how they expect the waiting list to feel about that. You can only keep these people happy for so long before they decide to sod off and wait somewhere else.

I've posted a question whether this is just planned for the 2010 season and will be reassessed in 2011. My hunch is: get the stand built asap to stop the argos, maximise sales revenue by making the stand game day tickets only for 2010 (ie, no SSH discount) and then make a long term decision on what to do with the north stand next off season.

[Gixmo]

Good timing, but not for seasons? Yikes.. Me want!!
I guess I'll wait for my call and apply pressure, directly to ticket rep lol :)

Thanks Paul B for the information, appreciated!!

[Oldtimer]

Good timing, but not for seasons? Yikes.. Me want!!
I guess I'll wait for my call and apply pressure, directly to ticket rep lol :)

Thanks Paul B for the information, appreciated!!

Now imagine if the new stands were bought by scalpers... we'd be all upset.

We've been after Paul & Co. for ages to do something about the scalpers. Providing seats to the walk-up crowd will aid in reducing the scalper problem.

[BuSaPuNk]

Now imagine if the new stands were bought by scalpers... we'd be all upset.

We've been after Paul & Co. for ages to do something about the scalpers. Providing seats to the walk-up crowd will aid in reducing the scalper problem.

No doubt it will help and hopefully get some of the scalpers to drop there seats all together because there will not be a demand for them.

I still like that they are keeping the beer garden around. The one and only time I used it was a game one of my buddies wanted to come with and I couldn't find a cheap set of 3. So just grabbed him a single somewhere elese in the stadium and chilled down there. It was pretty cool. Still like to be in my seat though.

[Gixmo]

Now imagine if the new stands were bought by scalpers... we'd be all upset.

We've been after Paul & Co. for ages to do something about the scalpers. Providing seats to the walk-up crowd will aid in reducing the scalper problem.

Oh, I agree 100% - I'm looking at it being a partial pack holder, desperately trying to find a way to join the 'FT club' without being sent to the seated prawnies for a year - Waiting for the call is killing me :).. Tis all.. Wedding+House+Fiancee = Alter priorities when you sit down and look at it lol... Bypassing the sit down sections and being able to use my voice from the field level is all.. :) I can justify gas and drive time, but not $900/Seat to the wife is all :) I'm optimistic Paul B & co will remember us folk as they have prior, and if possible get us in there FT. (Hi Paul!!)

Reducing, or eliminating, scalpers all together is a great idea.

[kodiakTFC]

First off, thanks as ever for posting Paul. Appreciate the feedback.

I'm disappointed to hear that the patio will survive. Or rather, that the patio will survive in a form that allows people to stay there and watch the game instead of being in their seats to watch the game. That's a big loss to the atmosphere and visual impact of full seats in the stadium.

Is the "don't sell as season ticket" plan just for 2010 and to be reassessed from 2011 onwards? That would make sense (see my post above).

Great news about the food building area.

Any insight on how this might impact the Argos' squatting attempt?

Roogsy - you gonna take that?! :D

These are the questions I want asked.

[TFC07]

Kudos to MLSE for doing this.

BTW, would this end Argos' dream of playing in BMO field?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I am fine with the north stand expansion with or without the beer garden. If it has to stay then BMO Field will have a unique look to it. It shouldn't detract from the atmosphere as we've lived with it since day one...
"Unique" is an interesting way of putting it...

If people want to watch a game in a bar atmosphere, which is what the beer garden is like, why not go to a bar?

[wzhxvy]

let me see...if these are "walk up" or "ticketmaster" seats, I think MLSE maybe in for a surprise...I think that 99% of the people who really want to be at TFC games actually end up in the stadium...so the potential walk up maybe in the 1000 range but those seats will not be full game in game out.

If they make them "partial packages" and throw the Marlies crap at us...then I would not be shocked by the "value" play

Some people are hinting around what this means for supporters...I dont have inside info because I am not blessed with inside info, but I am still disappointed this section is not for supporters...and if its not for supporters then I hope they do something creative structuraly or design wise that improves the look and feel of the stadium...

[Yagbod]

The only plus for the Beer Garden, from my point of view, is for people stuck with multiple single tickets. I understand there are even some SSH with multiple singles because they were among the last to pick seats (this is my greatest fear as a current Gold-lister).

For that reason we need the Beer Garden. Last year I bought three Partial Packs so that I could see the whole season. My wife could not go to every game so we bought singles for her for about 8-10 games. For each of those games we stood in the Beer Garden. It was that or sneak into empty seats elsewhere (risky).

For that reason alone, I am glad for the 9 ft clearance.

[Brooker]

I just want to watch some soccer and see a playoff game before I die. :o

[mlsintoronto]

nope - not for seasons.

Of the 17,000 people on the waiting list approximately 14,000 have no access to seats. hopefully we can find a way to get this group access to a handful of seats.


why keep the patio? why not? its a great part of the building, and is a nice point of difference for our little stadium. some like it. some do not. I do. :)

[ManUtd4ever]

"Unique" is an interesting way of putting it...

If people want to watch a game in a bar atmosphere, which is what the beer garden is like, why not go to a bar?

I agree with you as far as the game experience is concerned. I have seasons tickets in section 119. All I'm saying is if this is the only way to expand the North End then who gives a rat's ass if some fans prefer to watch the game from the beer garden...It wouldn't be my preference but to each his own...

[mlsintoronto]

I just want to watch some soccer and see a playoff game before I die. :o


AMEN.

[canadian_bhoy]

Not to play devil's advocate, but everytime one of my cousin's sees BMO on TV they say how cool the "pub at the end of the park" is. I like the beer garden. Do I go there? No. But I like the uniqueness that it brings to the stadium.

[brad]

Haven't read all the posts here, but regarding the beer garden, I'd imagine one of the reasons it's staying is lots of people like it.

Not everyone in the stadium cares how the stands look on TV, about getting songs going, ect. Some just want to drink beer and watch football with their friends, and the beer garden is an easy place to do that - especially if you can buy single tickets for cheap.

This may not mesh with what supporters groups want, but lots of paying customers do.

[Belfast_Boy]

and just for a wee bit of perspective:

"One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time."
- Robert Kennedy


I'm against this post!

I'm not a beer garden guy. I want to be up in the stands. but I do see a lot of people hanging out there buying over priced beer. so I don't really care if it stays or goes. but would prefer a four sided stadium. it's what i'm used to seeing.

[Detroit_TFC]

I'm sure the volume of beer sales through the beer garden is huge, since it is set up to move a lot of beer, with multiple tap stations, etc. Obviously if the b.g. went away those people would still drink but maybe not as much (lines at other points of sale, limited vending in the stands, b.g sells when other points of sale are closed, or after 70th min whenever that is).

[kitchener-TFC]

Any renderings of the expansion yet?

[ensco]

Almost nothing has surprised me more than the level of agitation/dislike around the beer garden on these boards.

MLSE and the City are probably going to ruin the beer garden with what there doing, so you're all going to get your wish I suspect, but geez, there's a bunch of little old ladies on here.

Do I really need to say that it should be OK for other good fans to enjoy their football in a way that's different than yours?

OK Parkdale was right. I see that there is much more happy indifference to the beer garden than I had heretofore assumed, given all the posts railing about the beer garden.

I withdraw this comment.

[Whoop]

"Unique" is an interesting way of putting it...

If people want to watch a game in a bar atmosphere, which is what the beer garden is like, why not go to a bar?

It's just another option for people.

I have no issue with the beer garden per se.

[Parkdale]

OK Parkdale was right.


I don't see that very often :D


but yeah, I think that if the stadium was designed to be 100% supporter friendly, the beer garden would be an open terrace. The corporate boxes would become 'flare zones' and the visitors would be sitting on a dunk tank, where the whole section drops into a pool of water when TFC scores.

however, the stadium is NOT designed to be 100% supporter specific, and I like it that way. I'd rather see the majority of SSH happy with their experience, be in in a supporters section or the prawn seats. More happy people = better atmosphere.

[Sonny Cheeba]

some answers:

- we hope to close the area between BMO Field and the Food Building for most games (like the Real Madrid and Puerto Rico games in 2009). during the CNE we would have to leave it clear.


i think that an atrium of sorts could be built successfully between BMO and The food building.. quite like the one between the Direct Energy Centre and the Ricoh Coliseum. unless the molson indy runs right through there.... i don't think it does.

[Parkdale]

unless the molson indy runs right through there.... i don't think it does.


it doesn't. It's not actually a road.

problem is that if a roof goes up, then smokers will have to move even further away from the field. If the 'gated ticket area' is moved back like durring the RM and PR games, them they could have a smoking section that doesn't need to involve getting your ticket scanned to leave and re-enter.

I'm not a smoker anymore, so it doesn't matter to me, but it does really get congested around the gates.

[Kevvv]

I'm not a smoker this week, so it doesn't matter to me, but it does really get congested around the gates.


:D :D

[Parkdale]

^ thanks prickles.

[james]

Yup! I really think this is a more of a "Make-BMO-a-Permanent-SSS" move than it is a revenue or increased-capacity move. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the north end at the RM game hold about 3000?


No the Real Madrid added a stand that only had about 1,000- 1,500 seats. So the new stand they want to build in the North Stand will be roughly about the same size as the stand you saw at the Real Madrid match.

[Shway]

what is the possiblity of them replicating the South End Stand?
3000 seats doesn't seem far fetched.

My theory to expansion is if your going to expand, do it right, dont expand for 10 if there is a 100.

I think they should will out the north stand adding 3k to even 5k.

Wasnt there previous expansion renderings?

it would be great to see them now, since things are looking brighter

[Huyton]

I like the beer garden for one reason...it's a good place to go for a quick beer before heading home. Let the traffic die down a bit, chat about the game with a couple of other people...it's a great way to finish the match.

Incidentally, does anyone know what the scalpers charge for a south stand admission?

[Always There]

I've never been to the beer garden, but I like it. That being said, I've always wanted a North stand, as have most supporters. The idea that somehow a 1200? seat grandstand ( I forget the exact amount now ) can be built while keeping the beer garden appeals to me. I've always thought there was a cool vibe about it. I wish it could be expanded so people could buy tickets directly for the beer garden to join in the fun.

I'm just having a hard time visualizing what it will look like. The 9' thing confuses me. Can anybody possibly clarify? I can't imagine it being 9' behind the patio. That seems rather far back.

[james]

what is the possiblity of them replicating the South End Stand?
3000 seats doesn't seem far fetched.

My theory to expansion is if your going to expand, do it right, dont expand for 10 if there is a 100.

I think they should will out the north stand adding 3k to even 5k.

Wasnt there previous expansion renderings?

it would be great to see them now, since things are looking brighter

ya the stadium can add to 30,000 seat capacity. But i think TFC would only add to BMO field if they think there is a big enough demand for it, they want to keep the stadium full. It would probably be pretty easy for a North Stand that seats 3,000 to be built, but i think this small 1,200 seat stand is nothing more then another road block MLSE is trrying to make to stop the Argos from moving to BMO field. Its easy and quick, and can be set in place before the 2010 season even starts. A 3,000 seat stand could be built, but it would probably take more planning and time and not beable to be ready for 2010. Right now i think MLSE is just doing whatever it can to stop the Argos, and this is 1 good, fast way to do it.

[james]

I've never been to the beer garden, but I like it. That being said, I've always wanted a North stand, as have most supporters. The idea that somehow a 1200? seat grandstand ( I forget the exact amount now ) can be built while keeping the beer garden appeals to me. I've always thought there was a cool vibe about it. I wish it could be expanded so people could buy tickets directly for the beer garden to join in the fun.

I'm just having a hard time visualizing what it will look like. The 9' thing confuses me. Can anybody possibly clarify? I can't imagine it being 9' behind the patio. That seems rather far back.

9 feet behind the patio...just picture soccer stadiums that have a race track around the field where the seats are way back....actually 9' feet behind the patio is probably still quite a bit closer then having a track around the field.

[Get In There]

I believe MGMT's post stated 9' above the patio.

Still hard to visualize

[james]

I've never been to the beer garden, but I like it. That being said, I've always wanted a North stand, as have most supporters. The idea that somehow a 1200? seat grandstand ( I forget the exact amount now ) can be built while keeping the beer garden appeals to me. I've always thought there was a cool vibe about it. I wish it could be expanded so people could buy tickets directly for the beer garden to join in the fun.

I'm just having a hard time visualizing what it will look like. The 9' thing confuses me. Can anybody possibly clarify? I can't imagine it being 9' behind the patio. That seems rather far back.

actually a better way to picture is look at Columbus Crew Stadium. It would be somewhat like how Columbus have a tent behind the away end followed by seats above that. Just not as high as Columbus end is. Thats probably more like 15-20 feet.

[Fishnicker]

why keep the patio? why not? its a great part of the building, and is a nice point of difference for our little stadium. some like it. some do not. I do. :)

Yes this is all fine, but what happened to the the alligator pit we were promised?

I'm going to assume the plans still include it.:)

[boban]

Interesting, they're estimating $70,000 in revenue, which is more than $50/ticket.

Cue supporter group backlash/vitriol in 3, 2, 1.........
Not really.
Revenue calculation also includes merch, food and beverages these extra 1,300 people will spend.

[mlsintoronto]

Yes this is all fine, but what happened to the the alligator pit we were promised?

I'm going to assume the plans still include it.:)


The alligator pit exists...its located in the prawn section. Parkdale...tell 'em.

[rocker]

Last I heard, this was a free country.

yup, and I'm free to say people who stand at the tables in the north end and WATCH THE GAME ON THE SCREEN are fucking idiots and contribute to a sense of emptiness in certain sections, which is bad.

but it sounds like if they keep the patio under the stand people can't look up and watch the game on the screen. So that's a good compromise. I just hope they don't then put TVs under the stand ;)

[puskas1954]

Hello everyone,

Long time fan, first time poster.

Does anyone know if the dimensions of the pitch will be expanded with the additional of natural turf and the extra seats in the north end ?.

The pitch always seemed a little bit small to me when I go to a live game compared to the size of the pitch in the European leagues.

:scarf:

[GabrielHurl]

Football pitches can be any size with the following limits

Length: minimum 90 m (100 yards) maximum 120m (130 yards)
Width: minimum 45m (50 yards) maximum 90m (100 yards)

BMO is currently 115 x 75 yards

[Suds]

yup, and I'm free to say people who stand at the tables in the north end and WATCH THE GAME ON THE SCREEN are fucking idiots and contribute to a sense of emptiness in certain sections, which is bad.

but it sounds like if they keep the patio under the stand people can't look up and watch the game on the screen. So that's a good compromise. I just hope they don't then put TVs under the stand ;)

well ... then you're misinformed or have very bad eyesight ... I've stood in the beer garden for 3 years and the people around me do not stand all game looking at the screen. Do they turn around to check out a replay ... sure ... just like the other 19,000 or so people who look over to the score board.

F'k Sakes! ... people in the beer garden cheer on the team, watch the game, give the opposing goalie stick. All this crap about everyone in the beer garden not paying attention to the game is nothing but crap.

Maybe I should complain about all the people in that stands staring at us in the beer garden and not contributing to the atmosphere at BMO. If you want to people watch, go to Starbucks get a latte. I don't understand why you bother coming to the game. (see what I did there :rolleyes:)

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

If you want to watch a football match at a pub, go to a pub. ;)

I'm not gonna lie, I've hated the beer garden since day one, for reasons I've already stated. I always assumed that any plans for expansion would involve getting rid of the thing, but I suppose we're holding out for the next Genesis reunion tour. And how can absolutely everyone there be watching? It's not like it's a terraced area, it's flat; there are always people lined up against the railing watching, for sure, but there are loads more behind them who can't possibly see everything that's going on.

The north stand would also, as has been stated, be a perfect opportunity to finally have a dedicated supporters section. In our current fragmented state, with people who want to participate scattered all over the stadium and two groups in one corner and the other on the entirely opposite side of the stadium, we're naturally quite limited in what we can do. Being together in one stand would be great for so many reasons. For one, obviously with everyone together it would SOUND so much better, and we could actually plan tifos that require the participation of the whole stand. The Dichio banner excepted, I don't think many tifos that have required everyone's participation have gone over very well.

NEE also might be able to do the impossible and teach us the Horto. ;)

This would also help the 'common' fan to no end; they can watch the match in whatever manner they choose in the rest of the stadium, without having their view blocked or people standing on their seats, etc. while we do our thing in our own stand. :) Absolutely everybody wins.

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but that's my opinion.

[Canary Canuck]

Hello everyone,

Long time fan, first time poster.

Does anyone know if the dimensions of the pitch will be expanded with the additional of natural turf and the extra seats in the north end ?.

The pitch always seemed a little bit small to me when I go to a live game compared to the size of the pitch in the European leagues.

:scarf:

Like Gabrielhurl mentioned, there is flexibility but the standard pitch dimensions are 115 x 75 yards (105 x 68 metres). These dimensions are mandatory at the World Cup and thes are what BMO has.

[Suds]

^^

But I'm not opposed to a north stand at all. If you check any of my posts in this thread I have not said a north stand is a bad thing. I'm all for it. I think it's a good thing.

What pisses me off is the constant B.S. from people on this board who go on about how people who do stand in the beer garden are "idiots" and we are taking away from the BMO experience. Plenty of people in the beer garden cheer every game and are just as into the game as anyone in their seats ... in many cases it can be argued more into the game that people in their seats.

[ensco]

I like the idea of a terraced beer garden!

(But this business about the beer garden pulling people out of their seats is a red herring. Some will socialize and stay out of their seats, same as the whole lower bowl at ACC, with or without the beer garden. They just will.)

[Roogsy]

I have never complained against the people in the north stand other than the fact that it bothered me that it showed empty seats in the stadium. And I certainly don't believe they are idiots.

That being said...the cheering that goes on in the beer gardens is weak. Because it happens in between conversations and the swallowing of beer, especially once you get behind the row that is standing right in front of the rails.

While it is unique and probably lots of fun...I don't believe it has any place in a football stadium.

[Suds]

I have never complained against the people in the north stand other than the fact that it bothered me that it showed empty seats in the stadium. And I certainly don't believe they are idiots.

That being said...the cheering that goes on in the beer gardens is weak. Because it happens in between conversations and the swallowing of beer, especially once you get behind the row that is standing right in front of the rails.

While it is unique and probably lots of fun...I don't believe it has any place in a football stadium.

I can claim the same thing for 10,000 other people in the stadium. That's a bigger issue than a few hundred in the beer garden.

Anyway ... I've said my piece. As I said, I'm all for the north stand and see it as a good thing.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

While it is unique and probably lots of fun...I don't believe it has any place in a football stadium.
Zactly.

[Kaz]

you know if the Argo's owners Douche move helps get more seats at BMO and they still can't be there, then awesome move Argo's owners thanks for extra seats :)

[rocker]

^^

But I'm not opposed to a north stand at all. If you check any of my posts in this thread I have not said a north stand is a bad thing. I'm all for it. I think it's a good thing.

What pisses me off is the constant B.S. from people on this board who go on about how people who do stand in the beer garden are "idiots" and we are taking away from the BMO experience. Plenty of people in the beer garden cheer every game and are just as into the game as anyone in their seats ... in many cases it can be argued more into the game that people in their seats.

you're generalizing from what you've read then. (just as you think readers here think you think the north end stand is a bad thing)

I don't mind the people in the beer garden who stand at the rail and watch the field and drink their beer. That's fine.

It's the idiots who stand back 10 feet at the tables and watch on the scoreboard. Anyone who pays good money to attend a live match, to then stand at a table 10 feet back of the field and watch on the scoreboard is an idiot. Or maybe "fool" is a better word since "idiot" seems to offend?

I think it's a product of beer cutoff points in the stands.. so guys leave and go over to get their beer after the 65th and end up just standing halfway back and chatting and watching on the screen. that's sad.

So these people who do this essentially leave a seat open somewhere when they could have watched on TV and given that seat to someone else. It's like going to a concert and then going outside and watching the concert on TV. Foolish. And when atmosphere is driven by having the stands full, and people in close, (empty seats don't promote the excitement and community feeling) then it's a problem.

But standing in the beer garden at the front and watching the game that's going on on the field is OK (it has it's problems too, but at least the people are watching the game). People on this board complain about others not watching the game (using blackberry or going to get beer 10 times a game) so my complaint is similar.

[Suds]

you're generalizing from what you've read then. (just as you think readers here think you think the north end stand is a bad thing)



says the person who posted the generalization that

"yup, and I'm free to say people who stand at the tables in the north end and WATCH THE GAME ON THE SCREEN are fucking idiots and contribute to a sense of emptiness in certain sections, which is bad."

Then you try to clarify your generalization after the fact I called you on your post that me and my friends are fucking idiots because we stand at a table in the north end .... whatever.

[ensco]

The number of people truly chatting and/or scoreboard watching in the north end is maybe 100-200 people.

No more than 1.0% of the people at the game.

So what.

[Pookie]

Curious as to how this is going to look:

1. Will NEE end up influencing chants from 127 for this new north stand the way that 112 does for 113, 111 and 110?

2. They are moving forward with Gold list purchases soon, I would hope that the timing of the approval would allow for Gold Listers to get in on the seats

3. What kind of atmosphere will it have if they keep the current "fancy seats" in 128-130 and 101-103? Those guys have their own bar like set up in behind.

4. Sounds like pricing may be in the dark grey variety but that's a little steep for a spot that can't see the scoreboard. Sure would make the South End more attractive given the same sight lines and price point.

5. Will they give security the permission to kick out any douche that attempts to start "The Wave?"

... good questions to bring to a pub crawl

[Yagbod]

The Beer Garden (first row) fans are always great. Abusive, uncouth and a wee bit drunken, but they cheer and sing more than many other sections that I have watched from. They always antagonize the visiting goalkeepers. We really had Joe Cannon going in that 2nd last game.

That being said, the stands 9 feet above them will likely kill most attendance except for that first row. You can get about 2 snug rows that can actually see the game. Anyone behind that is watching on the scoreboard. It is too hard to see over anyone's head. And, with the new stands above them they won't be able to see the scoreboard and will be forced to return to their seats to see the game. There may be a few TV's but I still expect the beer garden attendance to drop.

It will still be a cool place to go if you do not have seats together with your friend(s) though. Which is good.

On another note, I would not be surprised to find out that the total seating in that North End was closer to 2000. That was the number that Anselmi quoted to me at the year end party. Mind you, he also said that Gold-listers would have a shot at them, which I understand is no longer the case.

[Red CB Toronto]

I do not know what this means for price next year, but for the record the temporary stand that was put up for the Real Madrid game was $125.00, the cheapest price for tickets. For the Champions League match vs. the Islanders, the north end stand was also in place and was $22.00, same price as the south end. I would assume a north end stand would be in the same rage as the south end.

[Cashcleaner]

Hmmmm...

I think I know what's going on with this recent news. To me this is a lot more about halting a plan to expand the playing surface to accomodate a CFL field than it is to expand our seating capacity.

Think about it. 1,200 isn't a lot of new seats. I mean, if you figure everyone from both here and U-Sector were to buy two or three seats each, the thing would be sold out before long. But the number of seats isn't what's important you see. What's important is the fact that they will be permanent.

The new arrangement will have permanent stands blocking any attempt to enlarge the playing field, but still won't have enough seats to satisfy the Argos. At the end of the day, we're left with a stadium that will not fit a standard CFL field and is still far below capacity for 28,000 - 30,000 Argos fans the club depends on for gate revenues.

Shrewd ploy, MLSE. ;)

[ecospice]

nope - not for seasons.

Of the 17,000 people on the waiting list approximately 14,000 have no access to seats. hopefully we can find a way to get this group access to a handful of seats.


why keep the patio? why not? its a great part of the building, and is a nice point of difference for our little stadium. some like it. some do not. I do. :)

I like the beer patio too. I just wish there was washroom access for the post-game crowd.

:scarf:

[TFC_Junky]

Curious as to how this is going to look:

1. Will NEE end up influencing chants from 127 for this new north stand the way that 112 does for 113, 111 and 110?

I would love to see this get going. More noise from the north end! If this happens, let's REALLY get BMO rocking!!!:scarf:

[brad]

It's the idiots who stand back 10 feet at the tables and watch on the scoreboard. Anyone who pays good money to attend a live match, to then stand at a table 10 feet back of the field and watch on the scoreboard is an idiot. Or maybe "fool" is a better word since "idiot" seems to offend?

My guess is that a lot of these people really don't care that much for the game. They go cause it's the cool ticket in town, watch some of the game, and to hang out with their friends and drink beer. I know several people that don't even like soccer that attend matches semi-often for exactly these reasons.

You could make similar claims about people going to overhyped clubs and paying for overpriced drinks, waiting in line for an overhyped restaurant to over pay for an average meal, or a host of other things.

[Parkdale]

What's important is the fact that they will be permanent.

Shrewd ploy, MLSE. ;)

and it's probably the start of a bigger expansion. We all know that BMO was built to grow, (which is why parts of it look unfinished now) and the north end was the logical spot to start. It's a minimum investment compared to expanding any other section, and it's already been proven to sell out for big interest games. Sure they COULD add 10,000 more seats on the East and South sides, but what if they didn't sell? They know that the 1,200 will sell out for every game. There's no point in expanding if it wouldn't sell out.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

^ Yeah, BMO is definitely built to grow, and as is pretty common knowledge the reason they built such a bare-bones stadium was so they wouldn't lose too much if TFC ended up being a flop.

What I'm just dreading, though, is that the stadium will continue to expand and leave the beer garden as a permanent feature. Judging by the comments in here from Paul B. it seems that could very well be the case. As the stadium expands and more seats are added, and the capacity grows closer to 30,000, the effect of the stadium looking emptier because of people hanging out there will probably lessen (proportions and that), but the stadium will forever look extremely stupid.

You'd think the most logical first expansion would be to tear out the beer garden and build another real stand behind the goal, ala the south end. It sounds like the north stand is going to be essentially a duplicate of the temporary stand in place last season, high up and pretty far from the pitch. That's just another reason why long-term, I want to see the beer garden go.

[Parkdale]

^ everyone is entitled to their opinion.


here's another way of looking at it......

you know when people talk about general admission terraces? the beer garden is about as close to that as possible. I think that the reason the beer garden is seen as a negative now is because they squeezed a row of $10,000 tables between the beer garden and the railing. Sure it's thousands of dollars for MLSE, so I know why they did it, but when the beer garden actually went up to the railing behind the next, it was an interesting part of our stadium. It was almost like a terrace. Almost.

I think that IF the beer garden hadn't been marginalized and set back from the edge of the pitch, we'd be looking at it in a much different light. Hell, imagine if there was an organized bit of support in that section?

[Roogsy]

Almost like a terrace and yet so far from one.

At this point in time, I don't see it much more than a social/recreational zone.

[Parkdale]

well what if a bunch of supporters decided to go into the stadium as early as possible, and "take it over" ?

:coolgleam:

[brad]

well what if a bunch of supporters decided to go into the stadium as early as possible, and "take it over" ?

:coolgleam:

They'd have to watch the game on the big screen?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I doubt they'd allow flags and/or banners in the beer garden, TBH.

You'd hope that, eventually, comforts like a beer garden will be incorporated into the east and/or west stands, high up, out of sight and not somewhere as conspicuous as right behind the goal, the area where traditionally supporters mass. The best view is usually considered to be at the halfway line, anyway, so that's where they should be building corporate boxes and the like.

If anyone saw that 3D virtual tour vid of the new NYRB stadium, they essentially have the same thing as our beer garden but indoors, and high up, out of sight. Having something like that at pitch-level, behind the goal...

[ManUtd4ever]

My guess is that a lot of these people really don't care that much for the game. They go cause it's the cool ticket in town, watch some of the game, and to hang out with their friends and drink beer. I know several people that don't even like soccer that attend matches semi-often for exactly these reasons.

You could make similar claims about people going to overhyped clubs and paying for overpriced drinks, waiting in line for an overhyped restaurant to over pay for an average meal, or a host of other things.

I agree. While I'm sure there are some diehard fans that attend games in that section, it is generally more appealing to the trendy types. MLSE has decided to make the expanded North End available for walkup crowds to take advantage of this market in T.O., which is substantial. It's a great idea in the short term as it would be difficult to sell seats in the new North Stand to STH at this point in the off season. At some point in the future though, I wouldn't be surprised if the North Stand becomes available for seasons tickets and the beer garden remains as the alternative for walkup crowds.

[Always There]

I have a friend who has gone there a few times because he has just bought a single seat ticket. He considers himself a nomad for the game, hitting multiple sections. He says it's a great time down there. I'm surprised at the anger directed towards people having fun in BMO.

I think it adds character to the stadium. I wish they would add another barbeque to the mix down there. I always thought the smoke coming up from the que with that big FOOD sign in the background looks great. To me it always looks like a party down there.

I think the existing supporter sections are great as is. I don't get this idea that there are problems, because it seems to me that everyone is lively, standing and singing more often than not.

[Always There]

I have a good picture taken from behind the beer garden after a game last year. It is shocking how many nearly full cups of beer are left behind. Horrible stuff!

I wish I could post it, but don't know how.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

.......

Even in supporters' sections, it's a small minority that actually sing, and it's an even smaller minority that know more than 2 or 3 songs.

What you just said is exactly why I don't like the beer garden. You're there to watch a football match, not to go to a pub or feel like you're at a college party. I have fun at BMO singing, jumping up and down, waving flags and supporting my team, because I come to see a football match. The last thing I want BMO to become is another ACC, where the actual game is just something that goes on in the background while people do other stuff.

Maybe I'm more European in nature than I thought I was, because I wasn't expecting it to be about a 50/50 split for and against the beer garden.... lol

I'll take that as a compliment to myself.

[xj Darrell]

I know BMO was built for expansion and I think that full stands in the north end is the only authentic way to do it. Way more intimidating for opposing teams and better atmosphere for everyone. I don't want BMO to be viewed as a gimmicky MLS stadium!
Red bull did it right - not like some of the other stadiums in MLS. BMO should be an authentic Football stadium - Wrap around stands - no beer garden.

http://www.seats3d.com/mls/new_york_red_bulls/

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Yep, the Red Bulls, despite being shite, now have the league's best stadium. And no stage or beer garden.

[Super]

BMO is definitely one of the ugliest stadiums in the league. It's owned by the city, though, so what can you do.

[Parkdale]

BMO is definitely one of the ugliest stadiums in the league. It's owned by the city, though, so what can you do.


it's ugly, but it our kind of ugly.

sure it looks like it was designed by a bored civil engineering student,
but it has great sight lines, the seats are very close to the pitch,
and there's room for improvement worked into the plan from the very start.

[rocker]

BMO is definitely one of the ugliest stadiums in the league. It's owned by the city, though, so what can you do.

as long as its not uglier than Crew Stadium, then we're OK.

[Parkdale]

as long as its not uglier than Crew Stadium, then we're OK.

those "cheerleaders" don't help their cause.

[Roogsy]

The last thing I want BMO to become is another ACC, where the actual game is just something that goes on in the background while people do other stuff.[/B]

Maybe I'm more European in nature than I thought I was, because I wasn't expecting it to be about a 50/50 split for and against the beer garden.... lol

I'll take that as a compliment to myself.

I agree 100% and I am nowhere near European.

[mastermixer]

That energy drink stadium brings a tear to my eye. I hope I'm alive to see a stadium like that in Toronto for our Reds.

[Always There]

Addressing the current state of the South End, I'll say that I don't really care if people don't sing constantly. I think the energy is still great. People are really into the game and you can hear the passion on close shots, or calls that didn't go our way, or even when people see someone streaking down the wing looking for a long pass, the anticipation is palpable.

I mean no disrespect when I say that some of the songs are a bit played out. I sing sometimes but, as I've said before, it sometimes becomes nonstop ole' ole's and allez allez's. The few big chants we have are great and are well done. More will develop over time, but as for right now my opinion is that the South End and 111 corner are still a great place.

For those that don't like the beer garden, I'll agree to disagree, but thank you for letting me know it's open after the 65 minute mark:drinking::yum:

[Mark in Ottawa]

After listening to the recording of Don Garber at the Supporters Summit...
Do you think it is possible that the North Stand will become an expanded away supporters section?? Garver mentioned that since travelling support was a recent phenomena for MLS (Read since the inception of TFC :D) the league and its teams would have to look into enabling more of this activity in the more sold out stadiums.

They could allot a large portion of the North end to other MLS teams with tickets rated at more premium prices. The tickets would have to be committed to a few weeks before every match and those not claimed by visiting teams would then go on sale to the general public.

Possibility? or Not?

[ManUtd4ever]

After listening to the recording of Don Garber at the Supporters Summit...
Do you think it is possible that the North Stand will become an expanded away supporters section?? Garver mentioned that since travelling support was a recent phenomena for MLS (Read since the inception of TFC :D) the league and its teams would have to look into enabling more of this activity in the more sold out stadiums.

They could allot a large portion of the North end to other MLS teams with tickets rated at more premium prices. The tickets would have to be committed to a few weeks before every match and those not claimed by visiting teams would then go on sale to the general public.

Possibility? or Not?

Makes sense to me...walk up crowds and travelling supporters will fill out the North Stand. It would be appropriate given that the South End is the heart and soul of the Supporter Groups...

[rocker]

After listening to the recording of Don Garber at the Supporters Summit...
Do you think it is possible that the North Stand will become an expanded away supporters section?? Garver mentioned that since travelling support was a recent phenomena for MLS (Read since the inception of TFC :D) the league and its teams would have to look into enabling more of this activity in the more sold out stadiums.

They could allot a large portion of the North end to other MLS teams with tickets rated at more premium prices. The tickets would have to be committed to a few weeks before every match and those not claimed by visiting teams would then go on sale to the general public.

Possibility? or Not?

it could happen if the stadium expands further. but listening to It's Called Football today, Paul Beirne shot down any such idea for the north stand at this point. He felt like he wants to get more TFC fans in the stadium first ahead of travelling fans. so few tickets go to single game sales now that someone can't get in without being in a group or be a STH.

[Parkdale]

He felt like he wants to get more torontonians in the stadium first ahead of travelling fans.

true, and I see it the same way, but there should be some accommodation made for traveling fans.

Ideally I'd like to see BMO set aside 300 seats for visiting supporters,
but get an accurate number from them a month in advance. If they
are only bringing 80 people, the other 220 seats go back to the
general ticket pool. If they bring 300 people, there are no seats to go back.

Traveling support is going to become a big issue over the next few years
(Philly, Montreal) and there needs to be a plan to address it. Telling away
supporters "sorry, there's no room for you" will only lead to troubles
when we travel, and troubles for the league.

[JonO]

^^^ Yeah - but the league needs to implements a mandatory minimum number of seats or else who is to say what's fair...

[graeme117]

It would be great if MLSE could incorporate the accessible seating immediately behind the goal in the South End into the design for the new North End, and replace the south section with regular seating.

It would help unite the South End, esp. if the SGs are involved. It'd also be relatively cheep.

[Hitcho]

After listening to the recording of Don Garber at the Supporters Summit...
Do you think it is possible that the North Stand will become an expanded away supporters section?? Garver mentioned that since travelling support was a recent phenomena for MLS (Read since the inception of TFC :D) the league and its teams would have to look into enabling more of this activity in the more sold out stadiums.

They could allot a large portion of the North end to other MLS teams with tickets rated at more premium prices. The tickets would have to be committed to a few weeks before every match and those not claimed by visiting teams would then go on sale to the general public.

Possibility? or Not?

Not according to Paul B on It's Called Football last night. His inclination is to give the seats to TFC fans first. And I agree with him 100%. If other teams cannot sell out their seats and need us to fill them up, tough tits. Don't expect the same in return from a stadium whcihs ells out every game and has a 17,000 waiting list.

Kudos Paul, I like that you're sticking up for the TFC fans on this. :flare:

[Hitcho]

why keep the patio? why not? its a great part of the building, and is a nice point of difference for our little stadium. some like it. some do not. I do. :)

Yes, but you're not there to further your own interests Paul, you belong to us, and you must do what we tell you. Otherwise, alligator pit beckons for you sonny... :D

[Hitcho]

Now imagine if the new stands were bought by scalpers... we'd be all upset.

We've been after Paul & Co. for ages to do something about the scalpers. Providing seats to the walk-up crowd will aid in reducing the scalper problem.

I hope so, but I'm not sure how. What's to stop the scalpers from just sending someone up to buy a whack of tickets when the desk opens in order to maintain a monopoly on available seats? Or even a team of people. Then they can resell them to people coming to the ground for game time.

I agree that it makes it harder for the scalpers and increases their risk, but it won't necessarily stop them outright.

[Parkdale]

Not according to Paul B on It's Called Football last night. His inclination is to give the seats to TFC fans first. And I agree with him 100%. If other teams cannot sell out their seats and need us to fill them up, tough tits. Don't expect the same in return from a stadium whcihs ells out every game and has a 17,000 waiting list.



you saw my post about the possible repercussions of not letting supporters to come visit? it will only hurt us on the road when people decide to only allow Toronto 70 seats (or whatever number we allow them) just to prove a point.

[Parkdale]

also, if MLS wants to actually wants to embrace 'supporter culture' then they need to understand that supporters travel, often in numbers.

besides, I'm talking about like 300-500 seats here that would go back up for sale to Toronto residents if visitors aren't taking them. At least give them a grace period to get enough seats for their supporters.

[BuSaPuNk]

you saw my post about the possible repercussions of not letting supporters to come visit? it will only hurt us on the road when people decide to only allow Toronto 70 seats (or whatever number we allow them) just to prove a point.

That was excactly my thought when Paul said that on ITF. We need to tread carefully here with the away support. We could be the ones being hurt here more than other teams. We are known as the best travelling group in MLS. We screw with everyone else there is going to be a backlash and it ain't going to help us.

There has to be a 50/50 way of doing this. Use the North stand as walkups on game day. But allow away supporters to buy more tickets if need be on a game to game basis.

Ie. If Philly wants to bring 300 this upcoming year. Limit the group sales for that game (as Paul said on ICF) and allow ticket holders in the away area to switch there tickets to the North Stands for that game. And sell the remaining North stand seats to walk ups.

[Shway]

you saw my post about the possible repercussions of not letting supporters to come visit? it will only hurt us on the road when people decide to only allow Toronto 70 seats (or whatever number we allow them) just to prove a point.


very well true

Crew supporters have stated this already.
Saying they were only given 100 or so.
But who are they fooling

[Shway]

Alsoo another problem is that there is going to be a demand in the need for more security, to separte these supporters from the rest. Other than seattle the better supported teams are in the north east, and will have travelling support ala, Toronto FC, Chicago Fire, Philadelphia Union, D.C. United, NJ Redbulls, and you can throw in the crew.

MLS wants rivalies, they better have the right set up, and get things straight

[Detroit_TFC]

I'll be curious to see how Philly handles this because they are on the mark for a full house in their first season and due to their location there is a high likelihood for multiple games with significant travelling support coming to Chester.

[Chevy]

also, if MLS wants to actually wants to embrace 'supporter culture' then they need to understand that supporters travel, often in numbers.

besides, I'm talking about like 300-500 seats here that would go back up for sale to Toronto residents if visitors aren't taking them. At least give them a grace period to get enough seats for their supporters.

I think 300 seats are more than enough for away support. If opposing supporters plan for more, they can work with our front office just like TFC's groups do with other teams.

[Shway]

I'll be curious to see how Philly handles this because they are on the mark for a full house in their first season and due to their location there is a high likelihood for multiple games with significant travelling support coming to Chester.


VERY TRUE

[Parkdale]

very well true

Crew supporters have stated this already.
Saying they were only given 100 or so.
But who are they fooling


I think it was Chicago actually.

[Parkdale]

I think 300 seats are more than enough for away support. If opposing supporters plan for more, they can work with our front office just like TFC's groups do with other teams.

that's the beauty - the 300 (or whatever number) are there for visitors, but go back into the general pool a month or so before the game. Other SG's in other cities would know how many people are going, or at least a ballpark figure a month before the date. And if they only need 30, then there's 270 more walkup seats (or last minute group sales seats).

I just know that we (all the TFC suppoerters) have the most to lose if other stadiums decide to cap the number of visitors allowed. Sure most stadiums have thousands of empty seats, but it's not going to be that way in Philly, Seattle, Montreal, possibly the new NYRB one too.

[nascarguy]

it's ugly, but it our kind of ugly.

sure it looks like it was designed by a bored civil engineering student,
but it has great sight lines, the seats are very close to the pitch,
and there's room for improvement worked into the plan from the very start.
west and east side are great view but the view from both endzone is not that great. I guess I'm just so use to watching it on tv that when watching it live i can not stand watching any sports from the endzone.

the one place in bmo that i would like to sit and watch the game is in sec 220 or 221 but the seats cost is way too much

[Mark in Ottawa]

My thoughts were that by setting aside a "reasonable" percentage of your home seating capacity for the registered supporters of a visiting team... that they would be obliged to reciprocate and set aside a comparable number for when TFC comes to town and its supporters follow them. A pre-determined time frame for the visiting supporters to speak up and pay for their tickets would have to be agreed upon hopefully as a league wide standard.

Of course the definition of that "reasonable" number might be a tough one :facepalm:

[James17930]

also, if MLS wants to actually wants to embrace 'supporter culture' then they need to understand that supporters travel, often in numbers.

besides, I'm talking about like 300-500 seats here that would go back up for sale to Toronto residents if visitors aren't taking them. At least give them a grace period to get enough seats for their supporters.


I also think that's the best way to do it.

However, I also think they need to do a better job marketing these types of seats to the general public. I think most people don't even know that now there are extra seats made available a week before the game. The message that always gets out is 'everything's sold out,' and I think a lot of normals maybe don't even bother to check.

I think about a week before the game they need to run ads in the papers specifying how many tickets are available for that week's game.

[Gixmo]

Just listening to the Podcast now, and I can see where this is going. Paul B is smooth... I'm not in the 14,000 but it gives me a game day option if I can't do seasons in a great locale..

... and Shit.. tsk tsk :)

[Cashcleaner]

you saw my post about the possible repercussions of not letting supporters to come visit? it will only hurt us on the road when people decide to only allow Toronto 70 seats (or whatever number we allow them) just to prove a point.

So are you saying that a club is going to just let a couple hundred seats go unfilled - and unpaid for, just to stick it to us travelling TFC fans.

Yeah, ummmm, NO.

[RicoSuave44]

My first thought, when hearing of this expansion, was that it would be a wicked area for away fans. 300 was also the number that came to my mind. Hold 300 for away supporters (which we all know would only ever fill on a few occasions) and determine their needs. This is done up to a month before gameday. Then release the rest to the general public.

I personally like the away support as it makes us step up our noise and makes for better atmosphere. I would even say lets allow away fans to purchase the whole north stand if they could (only Montreal would be able to do this realisitcally) the way we've done in Columbus in the past.
Some of you think we need more tickets for our fans. Maybe so. I saw A LOT of empty seats at BMO this year. I have seasons, but since day one I've been buying singles or up to 8 for my friends and family, every game. I've almost never had trouble getting extra tickets for them. Maybe my RedPatch connections make it easier for me on occasion. But If there are people out there who are really having a tough time getting tickets for matches I suspect you aren't trying hard enough.

The beer patio I've always thought was cute but also pissed me off when I believed that it was sucking people from their seats. That was year 1 + 2, so what excuse do we have now? Even more seats are empty, and people come late and leave early en masse no matter what the score/importance of the match. That has me more angry than the silly beer garden.

As for this whole move the SGs to north end nonsense, I offer you this analogy: is it not akin to the same arguement that the Argos have for moving to BMO? And do you really think me being a SSH in 112, that I'll ever want to move anywhere else? PAH-LEASE! Dream on sunshines. The Bunker is our home.

PS: Nice play MLSE

[SilverSamurai]

I'm liking all this. :)

I just hope the way rule also applies to CMNT games but keep the away fans from the goalie. I"d hate to lose a game based on someone tossing something. But feel free to toss stuff at the visiting teams. j/k
lol

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

So are you saying that a club is going to just let a couple hundred seats go unfilled - and unpaid for, just to stick it to us travelling TFC fans.

Yeah, ummmm, NO.
At Giants Stadium and Crew Stadium they give us a lot more than that when we come to visit.Obviously, though, their attendance is a lot lower than ours, but yeah.

Most clubs will allot a decent-sezed section to away supporters and also leave a fair bit of empty space between said away supporters and everyone else.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Addressing the current state of the South End, I'll say that I don't really care if people don't sing constantly. I think the energy is still great. People are really into the game and you can hear the passion on close shots, or calls that didn't go our way, or even when people see someone streaking down the wing looking for a long pass, the anticipation is palpable.

I mean no disrespect when I say that some of the songs are a bit played out. I sing sometimes but, as I've said before, it sometimes becomes nonstop ole' ole's and allez allez's. The few big chants we have are great and are well done. More will develop over time, but as for right now my opinion is that the South End and 111 corner are still a great place.

The top part I am with you on, even if most people don't participate in the songs, etc. they are well into the game.

Thing is, unless you're watching a team like AC Milan or Barcelona who are 100% about attack, there are long lulls in-between scoring chances. I've always thought that must have been how singing at football matches started; something to do to make a long and sometimes dull game more interesting. If people only made noise during scoring chances, BMO would be a morgue for 95% of the match. That's why it'd be nice if more people sang.

As for overuse of allez and ole, that's an excuse that many people give and also one that is in my opinion completely invalid. People claim they don't like the songs because they're too easy and repetitive, and yet when more complex ones are attempted... See the Horto disaster for more on that. As I've pointed out more times than I'd like to count, even the simplest of chants can sound great when enough people make an effort. Don't blame the songs. Also, the simple fact is that rather a lot of Ultra songs use the words allez and ole. I could find a zillion examples for you.

[Parkdale]

So are you saying that a club is going to just let a couple hundred seats go unfilled - and unpaid for, just to stick it to us travelling TFC fans.

Yeah, ummmm, NO.

Chicago supporters threatened that it would happen in the 2008 season.

[Shway]

I think it was Chicago actually.

During the time of what happened at the Crew Stadium, there was obviosly an ongoing fued on Bigsoccer.com, and i was reading a couple of TFC fans saying how "you have know support", you know the typical, and saying "you bring 10 people in our stadium, you just look like security".....

Alot of the Crew supporters on BS, were saying that they cant travel in numbers because TFC only released a minimal number of tickets to them.


It just seems like this is going to be an ongoin thing, and in the future Toronto FC will have to make way for away support. With the heavy support north east teams. THings will change DRASTICALLY when Montreal enters, and when D.C. United get their own stadium

[Cashcleaner]

Chicago supporters threatened that it would happen in the 2008 season.

You're absolutely right. Chicago supporters did make such a threat. I wonder how many or them were speaking on behalf of the Chicago Fire's sales department?

Economics, Parky. No MLS club is going withhold tickets unless their stadium is already sold-out.

[Rudi]

During the time of what happened at the Crew Stadium, there was obviosly an ongoing fued on Bigsoccer.com, and i was reading a couple of TFC fans saying how "you have know support", you know the typical, and saying "you bring 10 people in our stadium, you just look like security".....

Alot of the Crew supporters on BS, were saying that they cant travel in numbers because TFC only released a minimal number of tickets to them.
The Crew supporters are full of shit.

They couldn't even fill their allotment of 100 tickets that was given to them, despite their big talk about "answering" our first invasion in kind. They managed something like 70 people, and had to cancel one of the two buses they booked.

The issue of traveling fans is not a big one yet, so I can see why TFC FO is not to concerned about it. Really, only Chicago, DC and Montreal have brought any real numbers to Toronto, and the largest of that group was the first Chicago game two years ago.

[Roogsy]

The Crew supporters are full of shit.

They couldn't even fill their allotment of 100 tickets that was given to them, despite their big talk about "answering" our first invasion in kind. They managed something like 70 people, and had to cancel one of the two buses they booked.

Yep.

I followed these events closely and laughed heartily at the amoung of begging that had to go on among them to fill their buses eventually changing plans to vans and cars.

[egoodwin]

As for overuse of allez and ole, that's an excuse that many people give and also one that is in my opinion completely invalid. People claim they don't like the songs because they're too easy and repetitive, and yet when more complex ones are attempted... See the Horto disaster for more on that. As I've pointed out more times than I'd like to count, even the simplest of chants can sound great when enough people make an effort. Don't blame the songs. Also, the simple fact is that rather a lot of Ultra songs use the words allez and ole. I could find a zillion examples for you.

Horto disaster? did you miss out on the later stages of the evolution of the song? Go on a road trip, or visit other sections, and you'll see just how strong the song is...

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

^ I've been in 127, and heard the better version in full voice. It has yet to catch on in 112, is what I'm saying.

[egoodwin]

^ I've been in 127, and heard the better version in full voice. It has yet to catch on in 112, is what I'm saying.
it just takes effort and dedication to pulling it off... in 127 it started at first with a few people singing it, next week couple more sung it, week after that more people singing it... it developed through working on it in the 30-45 min pregame we spend in the stands, and at half times... with a bunch of people who just kept pushing it and not letting it die...

similar to how I presume TFC Bounce grew in popularity

[Dbl_D]

The Crew supporters are full of shit.


always



Really, only Chicago, DC and Montreal have brought any real numbers to Toronto, and the largest of that group was the first Chicago game two years ago.

ah 5/12/07 brings back some fond memories... :scarf:

[Always There]

The top part I am with you on, even if most people don't participate in the songs, etc. they are well into the game.

Thing is, unless you're watching a team like AC Milan or Barcelona who are 100% about attack, there are long lulls in-between scoring chances. I've always thought that must have been how singing at football matches started; something to do to make a long and sometimes dull game more interesting. If people only made noise during scoring chances, BMO would be a morgue for 95% of the match. That's why it'd be nice if more people sang.

As for overuse of allez and ole, that's an excuse that many people give and also one that is in my opinion completely invalid. People claim they don't like the songs because they're too easy and repetitive, and yet when more complex ones are attempted... See the Horto disaster for more on that. As I've pointed out more times than I'd like to count, even the simplest of chants can sound great when enough people make an effort. Don't blame the songs. Also, the simple fact is that rather a lot of Ultra songs use the words allez and ole. I could find a zillion examples for you.


For me it's not invalid, it's a fact. I love to sing, but I get tired of singing allez, ole, or saying la la. I find sometimes it's just a bit much and repetitive. I'm a big stomper and have no problem with rhythm so at least I'm still involved. Like I say, I'm always in on the big originals.

What is Horto? If it's the one that goes "something has come over me", I'm not too big on that one. I didn't know of any efforts to have any long singalongs. If I ever hear something catchy, you can count on me.

With complicated songs I think it has to be something that everyone knows. Something that has been drilled into our collective brains because we've heard it a million times on the radio. Something non soccer related. Michael Jackson? Tragically Hip? Beatles? Just an opinion so I won't debate it as I know it's off topic.

I really want to see a design for the new North.

[Darlofletch]

Wasn't this supposed to have been discussed by the exhibition board of governers at the end of this week?

has anything at all happened?

[billyfly]

^They passed it. On to City Hall for final approval.

[rocker]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand1.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand3.jpg

[ensco]

If there's a beer garden in there, I don't see it.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Looks a lot better than I expected, it looks bigger than the temp. stand they had last year. Just a shame they didn't go all the way and have it go down to pitch level and get rid of the beer garden.

At least there's only an 8' clearance, I hope people stomp a lot and people stay in their seats more for fear of getting hit with a falling nut or bolt. :)

[JDG]

The bottom of the stands is 8' off of the ground at the lowest point. It seems the Beer garden will be able to remain, with a decent view of the pitch.
It'll be the best place to watch from in the rain if you don't like getting wet ;)

[ensco]

It's the beer cave, and not much of a cave.
Sigh.

[Shway]

i wonder what chanting would be like under there?

a bootleg roof

[Keystone FC]

The bottom of the stands is 8' off of the ground at the lowest point. It seems the Beer garden will be able to remain, with a decent view of the pitch.
It'll be the best place to watch from in the rain if you don't like getting wet ;)

That's if they can see through all the banners people will be placing along the railing.
I didn't see it in the sketches but will they place some sort of netting behind the goal so balls won't hit the wheelchair warriors?

[Keystone FC]

i wonder what chanting would be like under there?

a bootleg roof
If it remains hollow like that and the thing is made out of tin cans I'm sure some foot pounding will make for some nice racket.
If it's anything like the away section at Crew stadium there should be some 'sweet spots' where a properly placed foot on the bleacher is just as loud as the Red Thunder or even LOUDER.

[Blizzard]

The bottom of the stands is 8' off of the ground at the lowest point. It seems the Beer garden will be able to remain, with a decent view of the pitch.
It'll be the best place to watch from in the rain if you don't like getting wet ;)

The beer garden is in front of the stands not underneath them.

[JDG]

The beer garden is in front of the stands not underneath them.

If you look at the dotted line showing the "approximate location of the group sales suites", the current beer garden goes North at least that far I think - no?

The space in front looks to be no more than 8'

[Cambridge_Red]

oh boy..

[egoodwin]

mmhmm

[Blizzard]

If you look at the dotted line showing the "approximate location of the group sales suites", the current beer garden goes North at least that far I think - no?

The space in front looks to be no more than 8'

It's smaller than it used to be certainly.

I see what you're saying though. There does seem to be the possibililty of a slight overhang but there's no question that the beer garden can't be more than 15 to 20% of what it used to be.



http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand2.jpg

[Cambridge_Red]

Didn't Peanut Butter say this was near impossible to construct? Think it was discussed last year...Interesting..

[nascarguy]

they sould add this to the northend stands http://www.thesportsroadtrip.com/ham1328.jpg
just take the tc logo and replace it with a tfc logo and put the stands under the video sceen

[GeorgeB]

Didn't Peanut Butter say this was near impossible to construct? Think it was discussed last year...Interesting..yes someting about fire regulations .ha

[billyfly]

I hope they remember to add washers to the bolts that will hold it together.

[mlsintoronto]

yes someting about fire regulations .ha

Is peanut butter me? What was impossible?

[rocker]

Is peanut butter me? What was impossible?

hey, since you're here.... are you guys planning to add any other washrooms or will everyone in the north be encouraged to use the food building for their relief?

[boban]

Is peanut butter me? What was impossible?
North end expansion.
But since its less than 1500 I guess it made things easier, code wise.

[ilikemusic]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand1.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand3.jpg

Ive been out of the loop on this for a while.

Is that actually happening? And for next year?

[billyfly]

^yes.

[ilikemusic]

^yes.

:hump:

Awesome.