~ BMO Field: Should argos move in? Superthread~

[Roogsy]

http://www.socceramerica.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.showEdition&art_send_date=2008-9-11&art_type=85

Did you completely overlook this part?


Soccer United Marketing, a separate business owned by investors in the league, runs the league’s national television deals ($23 million last season from ESPN, Fox, HDNet and Univision), as well as the commercial rights to a bevy of soccer properties (such as the U.S. rights to the FIFA World Cup). Yet SUM distributed less than $1 million to each team last season. That means that to be successful in MLS, a team has to generate a lot of cash from its stadium and local television and sponsorship deals.


Am I missing something?

In 2008 they had $20million in losses from their football operations combined (and more and more teams were moving into the black by the way, you failed to mention that part as well) but they made $23million in marketing from a separate (but come on really, it's the same owners!) company related to football?

Seems to me combined they are $3mill in the black.

If I am not missing anything, have you not in essence, proven our point?

Am I wrong? What am I overlooking?

[Pawel]

Larry Tanenbaum was at the CFL awards...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/2009/11/27/spector_sharing_the_pie/

Larry T, while on the Board of MLSE is pursuing NFL and the Bills as a separate entity. Therefore MLSE has no connection to bringing the Bills to Toronto and most likely Larry T was at the awards on behalf of Larry T. Since the CFL and him probably have some discussions.

Anselmi said MLSE is not interested in the Argos, it was pretty clear from his answer that the CFL is not a property they are interested in.

What I can see is, if Larry T is successful in bringing an NFL team to Toronto he would need to build a new stadium. Also to be in the nice books of Canadians he could by the Argos for what 7 million? Stupid cheap, and run them rent free in a new NFL stadium and fill extra dates. Congrats Argos have now entered New England Revolution territory where they really allow the NFL team to post losses on that entity and get a second rate marketing job.

[toronto red]

Tom Anselmi of MLSE was on Prime Time Sports yesterday and didn't seem completely negative to the idea

Hey RPB, this is my first post on your board cause I think it's important. If you don't know me I'm usually found on Usector.

Hey Mulder,

I listened to the interview on the Fan 590 with Anselmi with much interest. Anselmi stated under no uncertain terms, that MLSE has no intention to go in that direction. They had looked at it in the past but did not feel they wanted to pursue that option now or in the future.

Not sure what Larry T is up to but it may be that he is just a powerful sports guy hanging out with mates at a big event. He might have been invited.

Could it just be that the CFL is waning in Toronto. TFC took off right from the start but in all honesty, although the expectations were low, was anyone truly bold enough to believe that interest in soccer didn't exist in this region? TFC has a potential that the Argo's can only dream about. I'd bet that TFC could fetch a pretty chunky sum on the open market today, easily over $50m. It's a very valuable commodity that is only scratching the surface.

If TSN ever starts to show an interest, particularly when Van and Mon join MLS, then boom shakalaka. We're on our way. The effort TSN puts into the CFL is massive.

The solution to this problem is simple. Hope that the Argo's franchise can rid itself of C&S and find someone who cares. I've repeatedly heard those owners and Pelley when he was around rip on us soccer fans and our stadium numerous times. So you wonder where we get the animosity, it's simply cause we've had to fight for years to protect any dignity that our sport has. Now that its gaining traction, we will defend it. To the hilt. The Argo's are a great franchise, they just need great (and unselfishly wealthy) owners. Used to be not a day went by without a knock on soccer, today, not so much. Many top Canadian sports commentators now follow soccer, MLS not so much, but still support the game.

Anyway, this ain't soccer vs football. It's about growth of soccer in Toronto and Canada vs the desperation of a poorly run and languishing CFL franchise. No one wins here.

TFC should not pay the penalty for Argo's ownership's ineptitude. The city should stand up and demand the Argo's owner's first prove their integrity and intentions before allowing them a cushy spot in our coveted stadium.

I like the Argo's for God Sake, but it just doesn't make any sense. Except if you don't give a shit about the sport of soccer.

If you want, I'll stand side by side with you to oppose this or encourage a new stadium or a better deal at Skydome for the Argo's at Rogers HQ, city hall, Queen's Park and even Ottawa. Just let TFC be at BMO, we ain't asking for much.

TR

[TheRenter]

this scares the hell out of me!

if this were to go through, it will kill both Toronto franchises, and would be very sad indeed.

anyone know if the argos moving in is a real possibility, or is it alot of smoke and mirrors?

God bless TFC!

[Hitcho]

who's e-mailed the TO Council recently? keep the message coming people...

[NewCity]

this scares the hell out of me!

if this were to go through, it will kill both Toronto franchises, and would be very sad indeed.

anyone know if the argos moving in is a real possibility, or is it alot of smoke and mirrors?

God bless TFC!

I called 2 days back and asked the argo's head office if this was a possibility, and they said that they will remain at Rogers Centre for 2010. The ownership may change but it will cost more to outfit BMO FIELD than make money and for now they need to bring back the fanbase to were it was and invest in a winning team.

[ensco]

The Argos have the legal right to pursue this, and City Council has a duty to examine it.

So even though it doesn't make sense for a number of reasons, it has to be taken seriously.

[Cashcleaner]

I've made it clear that I'm against gridiron football at BMO Field. That being said, as a moderate Argo fan, I would love to see MLSE purchase the Argos and renovate Lamport/Varsity to accomodate 30,000 fans. I used to go to Argo games with my Dad all the time at the good old Exibition Stadium and it was an authentic football atmosphere. I haven't gone to any Argo games at the Skydome/Rogers Centre since the Doug Flutie era because of the deteriorating atmosphere. I think this would be viable solution to all parties involved in any potential venture as I do not see MLSE and/or City Council allocating the funds to build a new facility.

I like that idea. Varisty would be my preferred venue, but I'm not too sure how much space they have to work with up there.

[ManUtd4ever]

I like that idea. Varisty would be my preferred venue, but I'm not too sure how much space they have to work with up there.

That's a shame, I hope the current or future Argos ownership group can collaberate with the city to find a suitable home and improve the product on the field as well. I would get back into following the team as I did before and I'm sure other Argo fans would as well...

[Sid]

what i heard No Cause its more money and i heard bmo just spent 5.5 million for grass

[LittleOzzy]

I was talking with some friends the other day trying to come up with a solution to keep the Argos out while at the same time keeping the city of Toronto happy, together we suggested that MLSE should start a Women's Professional Soccer team and join the WPS.

I know the idea sounds crazy, and I know the support wouldn't be as high, but I think it would be one way to say to the city, this is a soccer specific stadium and we are trying to grow the sport as much as possible.

Buying a franchise would be relatively cheap and it would keep BMO field filled all summer long with two soccer franchises operating out of it. It would also protect the grass, keep the stadium soccer specific and would also generate more money for the city. I just couldn't see them saying no if MLSE decided to bring in another team.

-----

Reading through this thread I also like the idea of MLSE buying the Argos in hopes of building another stadium else where with the support of Canadian Rugby. I think that would be a great idea knowing the rugby team would finally have a place to call home.

[Roogsy]

^ Hmmm...thinking out of the box. I like it!

[egoodwin]

Mulder was sent here by the Argo's to sidetrack the discussion....and its working.
it's true, he's on the friendsoftheargonauts site... he's even got a pic of him with Pinball as his avatar there...

http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401&start=60

[Dirk Diggler]

MLSE is not in the business of losing money so I do not imagine that they have any interest in buying the Argos at the moment. The only way they'd buy the money pit that is the Argonaughts is if it became evidently clear that MLSE can not keep them out of BMO Field. Even if it comes to that, I doubt MLSE will be interested in building them a new stadium and getting involved in rugby and what not.

I do like the idea of buying a WPS franchise. That just seems like the logical next step. Between TFC, the WPS team and Toronto Nationals, BMO Field will get a decent amount of usage and the inclusion of another franchise in that mix will only serve to make BMO Field a scheduler's nightmare.

[Roogsy]

MLSE is not in the business of losing money so I do not imagine that they have any interest in buying the Argos at the moment. The only way they'd buy the money pit that is the Argonaughts is if it became evidently clear that MLSE can not keep them out of BMO Field. Even if it comes to that, I doubt MLSE will be interested in building them a new stadium and getting involved in rugby and what not.

I do like the idea of buying a WPS franchise. That just seems like the logical next step. Between TFC, the WPS team and Toronto Nationals, BMO Field will get a decent amount of usage and the inclusion of another franchise in that mix will only serve to make BMO Field a scheduler's nightmare.

And it would solidify the stadium as soccer specific.

[TheRenter]

MLSE is not in the business of losing money so I do not imagine that they have any interest in buying the Argos at the moment. The only way they'd buy the money pit that is the Argonaughts is if it became evidently clear that MLSE can not keep them out of BMO Field. Even if it comes to that, I doubt MLSE will be interested in building them a new stadium and getting involved in rugby and what not.

I do like the idea of buying a WPS franchise. That just seems like the logical next step. Between TFC, the WPS team and Toronto Nationals, BMO Field will get a decent amount of usage and the inclusion of another franchise in that mix will only serve to make BMO Field a scheduler's nightmare.

the outdoor lacrosse team?

won't they be playing out of Lamport?

[Blizzard]

I like that idea. Varisty would be my preferred venue, but I'm not too sure how much space they have to work with up there.

There is no space there. The track takes up the space where the west stand used to be.

Also, the U of T already pulled out once. Why would they get back in? Additionally, the neighbourhood was mobilizing against the revamped Varsity of 25k. They'd do it again.

All told, Varsity isn't possibly but MOSTLY because of the lack of available space.

[Rudi]

the outdoor lacrosse team?

won't they be playing out of Lamport?
No.

Why would you think that?

[tfcleeds]

I like the idea of a WPS team...with a team in Toronto, we could get players like Christine Sinclair to play in Canada, and keep BMO soccer-specific to boot.

[Mulder]

it's true, he's on the friendsoftheargonauts site... he's even got a pic of him with Pinball as his avatar there...

http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401&start=60


Oh God, I'm found out. Does this mean I'll have to bring more Burgers to the Argo tailgates next season to feed all of ya?

[Mikey]

I called the Argos FO and told them that if they move the team to "that god awful tin can soccer field", I wont be renewing my four argos season tickets ever again, and then hung up. :rolleyes:

[Belfast_Boy]

No!
sorry I'm tainted, don't like the game so I don't want them on the football field.
go play somewhere else!
don't know about anyone else that contacted the politicians, but I didn't email and call and harass for some lardass with pads on to tear up the grass.

[Roogsy]

Oh God, I'm found out. Does this mean I'll have to bring more Burgers to the Argo tailgates next season to feed all of ya?

No, but what it does mean is that if you are only here to troll on the Argos issue, you might as well say your goodbyes now and head back to the morgue that is the Argos chat boards.

[Canary Canuck]

I like the idea of a WPS team...with a team in Toronto, we could get players like Christine Sinclair to play in Canada, and keep BMO soccer-specific to boot.

If Kara Lang plays I'll buy a ticket ;) http://i43.tinypic.com/16i7gif.png

[Dirk Diggler]

My word ... I remember a friend of mine was obsessed with Kara Lang in the past because she was her soccer icon or whatever ... I can understand why ... I'm gonna start petitioning MLSE to bring a WPS franchise here right away.

[denime]

And soap opera continues


Argos to know about BMO digs soon (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2009/12/03/12017016-sun.html)

[Oldtimer]

Kara Lang is very fit. That is a difficult yoga move to do 100% correctly.

[Oldtimer]

Say you have an MLS team with $8 million in net revenue before depreciation expenses (including sponsorships, etc.). You own a SSS costing $100 million, which will last for 25 years before requiring a major rebuild. Your profit is $8 million, less ($100 million divided by 25) $4 million in depreciation leaving a $4 million real profit.

Now in the US tax code, you can claim depreciation using any "reasonable" method (this differs from Canada where you claim capital cost allowance). So you claim that soccer is a "risky" business, and it is more reasonable to write off the stadium over 10 years, as you never know if the team/league will be around more than that long. Suddenly, you have a depreciation expense of ($100 million divided by 10) of $10 million. Suddenly, for tax purposes (and for information you give the player's union) you have a loss of ($8 million - $10 million) $2 million. Now say your share of SUM profits is $3 million in 2009, but SUM only pays $1 million in dividends. You only need to show the $1 million as revenue, so you still have a tax loss of $1 million.

This is how a club that makes $7 million (including SUM profits) can show a "loss" of $1 million.

Sports franchises do this sort of thing all the time. And SUM's profits are likely much higher than the $3 million you see, as they've also used this sort of aggressive accounting.

This is why an MLS franchise can be worth $35 million. You get $7 million-plus tax free, plus you get a write off of $1 million. You will make up the cost of your franchise in less than 5 years, after that it's all profit. Now of course, you'll have to pay higher taxes down the road when your aggressive depreciation is used up, but by then you'll have hoodwinked some government to pony up for a new SSS to replace your "aging" stadium.

A sports franchise can be a license to print money.

That's why anyone should look with great skepticism at reports that MLS franchise-holders are willing to pony up $35 million to lose money. Of course the franchise-holder will claim that they are "losing money now to make it in the long term." Don't believe it, they are making good money now through their accounting shell-game.

[Hitcho]

And soap opera continues


Argos to know about BMO digs soon (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2009/12/03/12017016-sun.html)

PEOPLE - GET THOSE E-MAILS IN TO TORONTO CITY COUNCIL, PANTALONE AND THE CFL EXECUTIVE.

THE TIME IS NOW.

[Phil]

PEOPLE - GET THOSE E-MAILS IN TO TORONTO CITY COUNCIL, PANTALONE AND THE CFL EXECUTIVE.

THE TIME IS NOW.

Yup, keep the pressure on.

I should have an update soon.

[Belfast_Boy]

can't this league just fold and go away?
sorry to all argo fans but i have no time for this game or the other one with the oddly shaped ball.

[Belfast_Boy]

we email our local representative again?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Published reports that have said the Argos don't pay rent at the Rogers Centre are off-base, Nicholson said. He reiterated the plan remains for the Argos to play at the Rogers Centre in the 2010 season.
WTF? Nice attempt at using doublethink there.

[tfcleeds]

If Kara Lang plays I'll buy a ticket ;)

Yeah, I was going to mention her - thing is, she still has a couple of years to go at UCLA I believe. Who knows, if Toronto gets a team, she could always be the first draft pick!!

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Just got a response from my councillor, not much but she said she will take my concerns before the council if the need arises, so at least it was read. KEEP SENDING EMAILS.

[Auzzy]

Article today in the Star about Argo issues, incl. possible move to BMO & ownership:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/733852--argonauts-face-boatful-of-issues

[Hustle]

Even If You Don't Live In Toronto,

Write A Councillor And The Exhibition Board Of Directors As A Involved User Of This Venue!

[James17930]

Why Can't You Just Build Your Own Fucking Stadium????!!!!!

Why Is This So Hard To Figure Out???!!!

Team With Canada Rugby -- They Need A Stadium Too!!!!

You Can Probably Even Get Some Gov't Money If You Do That!!!!

At Downsview!!!

Just Fucking Leave Bmo Alone!!!!!!

:seeya:

[Hitcho]

Article today in the Star about Argo issues, incl. possible move to BMO & ownership:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/733852--argonauts-face-boatful-of-issues


BOMBARD THE CFL WITH OUTRAGED E-MAILS ABOUT HOW THE REDUCED PITCH AT BMO FIELD WOULD BE DISASTROUS FOR THE GAME AND YOU'D NEVER GO TO ANOTHER CFL GAME THERE.

The CFL can stop this in its tracks. Let's convince them to...


E-mail addresses for all TO Council, CFL Execs and Argo Execs are quoted below...

[Hitcho]

Here are the email addresses in one bunch to make cut and paste real easy...

mayor_miller@toronto.ca (mayor_miller@toronto.ca); councillor_walker@toronto.ca (councillor_walker@toronto.ca); councillor_stintz@toronto.ca (councillor_stintz@toronto.ca); councillor_davis@toronto.ca (councillor_davis@toronto.ca); councillor_parker@toronto.ca (councillor_parker@toronto.ca); councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca (councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca); councillor_ashton@toronto.ca (councillor_ashton@toronto.ca); councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca (councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca); councillor_bussin@toronto.ca (councillor_bussin@toronto.ca); councillor_carroll@toronto.ca (councillor_carroll@toronto.ca); councillor_cho@toronto.ca (councillor_cho@toronto.ca); councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca (councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca); councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca (councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca); councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca (councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca); councillor_feldman@toronto.ca (councillor_feldman@toronto.ca); councillor_filion@toronto.ca (councillor_filion@toronto.ca); councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca (councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca); councillor_ford@toronto.ca (councillor_ford@toronto.ca); councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca (councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca); councillor_grimes@toronto.ca (councillor_grimes@toronto.ca); councillor_hall@toronto.ca (councillor_hall@toronto.ca); councillor_heaps@toronto.ca (councillor_heaps@toronto.ca); councillor_holyday@toronto.ca (councillor_holyday@toronto.ca); councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca (councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca); councillor_kelly@toronto.ca (councillor_kelly@toronto.ca); councillor_lee@toronto.ca (councillor_lee@toronto.ca); councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca (councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca); councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca (councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca); councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca (councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca); councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca (councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca); councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca (councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca); councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca (councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca); councillor_moeser@toronto.ca (councillor_moeser@toronto.ca); councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca (councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca); councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca (councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca); councillor_ootes@toronto.ca (councillor_ootes@toronto.ca); councillor_palacio@toronto.ca (councillor_palacio@toronto.ca); councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca (councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca); councillor_perks@toronto.ca (councillor_perks@toronto.ca); councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca (councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca); councillor_rae@toronto.ca (councillor_rae@toronto.ca); councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca (councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca); councillor_shiner@toronto.ca (councillor_shiner@toronto.ca); councillor_thompson@toronto.ca (councillor_thompson@toronto.ca); councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca (councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca)

For easy reference... :D:D:D

[Hitcho]

CFL Exec emails:

mcohon@cfl.ca (mcohon@cfl.ca) mcopeland@cfl.ca (mcopeland@cfl.ca) mmaychak@cfl.ca (mmaychak@cfl.ca) rassimakopoulos@cfl.ca (rassimakopoulos@cfl.ca) jnishino@cfl.ca (jnishino@cfl.ca) dallison@cfl.ca (dallison@cfl.ca) kmcdonald@cfl.ca (kmcdonald@cfl.ca) asciarra@cfl.ca (asciarra@cfl.ca)

Argo Exec emails:

dcynamon@KIKCORP.COM (dcynamon@KIKCORP.COM) hsokolowski@tributecommunities.com (hsokolowski@tributecommunities.com) bnicholson@argonauts.ca (bnicholson@argonauts.ca) mclemons@argonauts.ca (mclemons@argonauts.ca) mafinec@argonauts.ca (mafinec@argonauts.ca) jnalevka@argonauts.ca (jnalevka@argonauts.ca) dsteinfeld@argonauts.ca (dsteinfeld@argonauts.ca)

I sent them an email indicating if they allow the Argos to move to BMO, I'll never watch or attend a CFL game, or buy any made by a CFL sponsor. Suggest all those concerned do the same. Some of these might bounce, but it's still worth the effort.

And again... :D:D:D

CFL - underline the damage to the game and the league's integrity

Argos - underline an immediate cessation of all dollars spent on Argos and all tv watching if this goes ahead.

BUT - write as CFL and Argo fans, not outraged TFC fans. These guys don't care about TFC and its fans, they are focussed on their own league and fans.

[Whoop]

Article today in the Star about Argo issues, incl. possible move to BMO & ownership:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/733852--argonauts-face-boatful-of-issues

It's all about this.

If that's true, it could open the door for B.C. Lions owner David Braley to either lend the Argos more money or replace Sokolowski as a partner. Braley, who lent the owners $1 million when they bought the team out of bankruptcy in 2003, is keenly interested in keeping the Argos afloat for the sake of the CFL's stability.

If the Argos go down, say bye bye to the CFL.

[Wagner]

BOMBARD THE CFL WITH OUTRAGED E-MAILS ABOUT HOW THE REDUCED PITCH AT BMO FIELD WOULD BE DISASTROUS FOR THE GAME AND YOU'D NEVER GO TO ANOTHER CFL GAME THERE.

The CFL can stop this in its tracks. Let's convince them to...


E-mail addresses for all TO Council, CFL Execs and Argo Execs are quoted below...

that's the angle i've taken in my emails.

[Hustle]

Email to the CFL execs sent.

[Hitcho]

I have e-mailed the CFL execs and Argos execs. I've got my TO Council e-mail drafted but I am holding it back until closer to any time where a vote by council looks apparent for maximum impact. Fingers crossed it won't even get that far.

[TFC07]

it's true, he's on the friendsoftheargonauts site... he's even got a pic of him with Pinball as his avatar there...

http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401&start=60


Is it me or did this site hidden their threads from guests viewing it? I can only view sub-forum which non-related to Argos/CFL.

What bunch of cowards just like their owners who always back out of stadium deals.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^So sign up if you don't intend to just flame them.

[Roogsy]

Is it me or did this site hidden their threads from guests viewing it? I can only view sub-forum which non-related to Argos/CFL.

What bunch of cowards just like their owners who always back out of stadium deals.

It was public until the troll here was discovered. He wasn't a TFC fan, he was an Argo fan here just to rile up "angry soccer fans".

[Hitcho]

I don't think it's about flaming them Forts. I for one would like to know what Argo fans are thinking on this (not just the couple of idiots who came on here to get a rise out of people, the bulk of them). In the grand scheme of things, they probably carry more weight on this issue than we do.

[rocker]

i've wondered myself if argo fans generally know what's happening. that message board certainly didn't have that many fans or posts.
and do they realize what the gameday experience might be like: small field, metal stands, cold weather, packed pissers, long beer lines.....
if they get more info they might have their own revolt.

[menefreghista]

i've wondered myself if argo fans generally know what's happening. that message board certainly didn't have that many fans or posts.
and do they realize what the gameday experience might be like: small field, metal stands, cold weather, packed pissers, long beer lines.....
if they get more info they might have their own revolt.

Check out the 13th Man, a CFL fan forum. This is their topic on the issue.

http://13thman.com/cheers/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36131

[DOMIN8R]

Here's what I learned through the Grass at BMO initiative. Send paper letters. It's more disruptive.

[Roogsy]

^ Great suggestion.

I know that emails are MUCH easier...but if paper letters are more effective...let's get on this!

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't think it's about flaming them Forts. I for one would like to know what Argo fans are thinking on this (not just the couple of idiots who came on here to get a rise out of people, the bulk of them). In the grand scheme of things, they probably carry more weight on this issue than we do.

Right. Cool. That's what I meant. It's worth signing up to have a look around but show the respect we'd all want as hosts.

[rocker]

from PB

There was a small army of Cdn football types at BMO yesterday with big long measuring tapes. "measure it again, just to be sure!". Whatever. about 8 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/6304364193) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)
http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/81081940/Southwest_Adventure_018_bigger.jpg (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne)
Paulbeirne (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne)
Paul Beirne

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I got the same form letter from Pantalone as Ossington Mental Youth did but I got this encouraging response from an executive assistant to Councillor Hall:


David,

As a fellow Toronto FC fan, I share your concerns about the Argos moving into BMO Field. I have reinforced this issue to Councillor Hall and she supports keeping BMO Field for soccer purposes.

All the best

David CavacoWell, that's one on our side.

[ag futbol]

I got the same form letter from Pantalone as Ossington Mental Youth did but I got this encouraging response from an executive assistant to Councillor Hall:
Well, that's one on our side.
That's great news.

I'll be sure to write him and tell him thank you. Positive reinforcement :scarf:

[CruisinCanuck]

Hey guys. First off I must admit I'm a CFL fan (not argos though). I'm wondering why all the "hatred" from TFC fans towards the CFL and vise versa. Both have their own markets in Toronto, and there's no need to disparage the other. Personally, I think it's absurd and childish. If you don't like soccer that's fine, no need to insult those who do, and vice versa.

Secondly, I can understand the frustration soccer fans have. It's not just you. CFT fans (Argo fans) mostly prefer the Rogers Centre anyways. No way the CFL allows a basterdized field for the argos.

Thirdly yes the argo owners are at fault for backing out. Most argo fans want them gone as well. They come off as posers and have mis-managed that team completely.

Having said that, I wouldn't worry at all. There is no benefit for anyone. Once the argos aren't a joke management, they'll start pulling back into the 32-34k range. RC is one of the most acessible stadiums in Canada, and if they screw Rogers, they may not have a place to play for Grey Cups (likely 2012).

Lastly I apreciate the input of you sensible TFC fans, I realize there's only a few who feel the need to be childish.

Good luck!

:canada::drinking:

[egoodwin]

My interest in the Argos died this season when they traded Bruce... and replaced him with nothing...

[Redcoe15]

Hey guys. First off I must admit I'm a CFL fan (not argos though). I'm wondering why all the "hatred" from TFC fans towards the CFL and vise versa. Both have their own markets in Toronto, and there's no need to disparage the other. Personally, I think it's absurd and childish. If you don't like soccer that's fine, no need to insult those who do, and vice versa.

Secondly, I can understand the frustration soccer fans have. It's not just you. CFT fans (Argo fans) mostly prefer the Rogers Centre anyways. No way the CFL allows a basterdized field for the argos.

Thirdly yes the argo owners are at fault for backing out. Most argo fans want them gone as well. They come off as posers and have mis-managed that team completely.

Having said that, I wouldn't worry at all. There is no benefit for anyone. Once the argos aren't a joke management, they'll start pulling back into the 32-34k range. RC is one of the most acessible stadiums in Canada, and if they screw Rogers, they may not have a place to play for Grey Cups (likely 2012).

Lastly I apreciate the input of you sensible TFC fans, I realize there's only a few who feel the need to be childish.

Good luck!

:canada::drinking:
The vast majority of us don't hate the CFL or Canadian football. Many of us have attended live CFL games in the past and will do so again.

What we are upset with is the attempts of the Argonaut owners to try and influence their way into BMO Field after MLSE's lobbying and investing of real grass for the players to play on, and after both owners had abandoned plans for a joint football/soccer stadium in order to squeeze out a sweetheart deal for themselves for the Rogers Centre, leaving the stadium plans out to die. Rage was the initial reaction to the breaking news, but that has since been replaced with calm and measured reasoning to try and figure this out.

And you are right. Both sides stand to lose big if the Argo owners succeed with their plan. All because they have shown themselves to be underfunded and short sighted with running their team.

Perhaps more Argo fans can let their voices be heard as much as TFC fans have done so.

[ManUtd4ever]

Cynamon and Sokolowski bought the franchise, inherited a pretty good team at the time, won the Grey Cup in their inaugral season as owners, and have run the team into the ground ever since both on and off the field. It's a real shame...

[Blizzard]

My interest in the Argos died this season when they traded Bruce... and replaced him with nothing...

It is the quality of personnel management that went down the tubes when Pinball left the sidelines.

The Bruce issue was a perfect example.

While one cannot say that it never pays off to bring in a head coach with no CFL experience (witness Montreal) it is much more often than not that it leads to disaster ... especially with the Argos.

Anybody remember Forrest Greg or John Huard?

:picard:

B

[MUFC_Niagara]

It is the quality of personnel management that went down the tubes when Pinball left the sidelines.

The Bruce issue was a perfect example.

While one cannot say that it never pays off to bring in a head coach with no CFL experience (witness Montreal) it is much more often than not that it leads to disaster ... especially with the Argos.

Anybody remember Forrest Greg or John Huard?

:picard:

B

Wow...Blizz! You follow this???

[Auzzy]

Hey guys. First off I must admit I'm a CFL fan (not argos though). I'm wondering why all the "hatred" from TFC fans towards the CFL and vise versa. Both have their own markets in Toronto, and there's no need to disparage the other. Personally, I think it's absurd and childish. If you don't like soccer that's fine, no need to insult those who do, and vice versa.


:canada::drinking:

CruisinCanuck, very good points throughout your post. I also agree with what Redcoe15 answered above. RE the hating & insulting, it's just what people do on the boards, very often! Usually it's at each other (or at our players, coaches, management, ownership, league....), and about much less important things -- & people on the outside don't usually pay much attention.

The other thing is -- there's been at least two years of frustration built up about the FieldTurf at BMO Field, which was totally worn out & unplayable for a long time. After another mostly frustrating TFC season, the decision to convert to grass (after LOTS of prior lobbying) was finally a reason for unbridled joy. To have this "Argos at BMO" proposal come up such a short time later -- you're gonna get some pretty visceral reactions...

[egoodwin]

all went downhill when they moved Stubler to head coach... he was amazing as a defensive coordinator... and now look at their defence...

[profit89]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2009/12/03/12025646-sun.html

[FluSH]

Alright...

So I've been away for awhile... and I am sure this article below has been posted already:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/cfl-to-examine-suitability-of-bmo-field/article1381562/

However the following needs an edit:



The biggest obstacle for the Argos in moving to BMO is that a regulation CFL field does not fit in what is now a soccer-only facility.
In addition, while BMO Field is owned by the city of Toronto, there is expected to be considerable opposition to the move from both Maple Leafhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/cfl-to-examine-suitability-of-bmo-field/article1381562/#) Sports and Entertainment (owners of Toronto FC), TORONTO FC SUPPORTERS, and the Canadian Soccer Association.

I mean there will be a wrath... one like no other if this moves forward... I'm seeing visions of a Dragon Spitting fire from it's mouth.... that's pretty much how I envision a response from us...

[FluSH]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/Toronto/2009/12/03/12025646-sun.html

Ok,

I'm not liking this... not one bit...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/dragon/smexylover12/Black_Dragon.jpg

[Blizzard]

Wow...Blizz! You follow this???

I used to be a season ticket holder. Time constraints made it difficult for me to go to games so I let them go.

Now TFC is my #1 team but I still support the Argos and have done so for a very long time (witness my Forrest Greg comment).

[Blizzard]

The Latest - Published Thurs Dec. 3 - 11:40pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/it-is-built-but-will-fans-come/article1388091/

In an open letter to Toronto Argonauts fans released yesterday, club president Bob Nicholson writes that the CFL team could play its home games at BMO Field as soon as next season.

[Cashcleaner]

PEOPLE - GET THOSE E-MAILS IN TO TORONTO CITY COUNCIL, PANTALONE AND THE CFL EXECUTIVE.

THE TIME IS NOW.

But for right now, let the CFL know that having the Argos play on a shortened field would be disastrous!

Remember. guys. That's the first step for the club: League (CFL) allowance to play on a non-standard field.

[Blizzard]

But for right now, let the CFL know that having the Argos play on a shortened field would be disastrous!

Remember. guys. That's the first step for the club: League (CFL) allowance to play on a non-standard field.

Agreed. The honest truth is that CFL on a bastardized field is an allowance that the league simply cannot give the Toronto Argonauts.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

man i hope this shortened field thing registers with CFL fans

[Kilgore Trout]

if this happens I'll eat a fedora, newsboy, AND driver.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

This is jsut an excuse for you to start eating children again, isnt it

[Kilgore Trout]

I wasn't aware that fedoras were children.

[TFC+Argos4Life]

Let me just say that, for the most part, I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of civility present in this forum so far. Given my past experiences commenting on the Argos and BMO field, this is a downright love-in.

For those of you (some but not all posters) who have been slagging the Toronto Argonauts and hoping for both the team and league to fold, I'd like you to watch one or two of the following videos:

Big Men, Big Hearts / Big Kiss Foundation

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905)

Argonauts Community Work – 2009 Overview

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303)

Feeding the Homeless, Thanksgiving Dinner

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437)

“Level the Playing Field” – Bringing football back to low-income area high schools, particularly those with a history of student violence (ie CW Jefferys).

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119)

“Huddle Up” Against Bullying campaign

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427)

Now, pound for pound, can you think of any other professional sports team that gives this much back to the community? I’m not talking just money (and they do give a lot of that) I’m talking about that personal touch that really leaves a lasting impression.

It’s fine to not want the Argonauts to play in BMO. But in hoping and praying for the team to fail and the league to go under, you’re praying for an end to all those good charitable works as well.

[reggie]

good for them....just stay out of our stadium...
tfc and mlse do just has much charity work has the argoNOT IN OUR STADIUM do.

Mod Edit: Please stay civil...

[Blizzard]

Let me just say that, for the most part, I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of civility present in this forum so far. Given my past experiences commenting on the Argos and BMO field, this is a downright love-in.

For those of you (some but not all posters) who have been slagging the Toronto Argonauts and hoping for both the team and league to fold, I'd like you to watch one or two of the following videos:

Big Men, Big Hearts / Big Kiss Foundation

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905)

Argonauts Community Work – 2009 Overview

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303)

Feeding the Homeless, Thanksgiving Dinner

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437)

“Level the Playing Field” – Bringing football back to low-income area high schools, particularly those with a history of student violence (ie CW Jefferys).

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119)

“Huddle Up” Against Bullying campaign

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427)

Now, pound for pound, can you think of any other professional sports team that gives this much back to the community? I’m not talking just money (and they do give a lot of that) I’m talking about that personal touch that really leaves a lasting impression.

It’s fine to not want the Argonauts to play in BMO. But in hoping and praying for the team to fail and the league to go under, you’re praying for an end to all those good charitable works as well.

A very good try but some won't care in the least ... at least not on this forum.

Some of us do actually support the Argos as long as they do not come to BMO but obviously that goes without saying at this point.

[CretanBull]

^I say this as a Habs fan, but no one does more for the city of Toronto & its charitable organizations than the Leafs do. The kind of money available to them, the profile of the team etc. does A LOT more than anyone else.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Let me just say that, for the most part, I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of civility present in this forum so far. Given my past experiences commenting on the Argos and BMO field, this is a downright love-in.

For those of you (some but not all posters) who have been slagging the Toronto Argonauts and hoping for both the team and league to fold, I'd like you to watch one or two of the following videos:

Big Men, Big Hearts / Big Kiss Foundation

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905)

Argonauts Community Work – 2009 Overview

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303)

Feeding the Homeless, Thanksgiving Dinner

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437)

“Level the Playing Field” – Bringing football back to low-income area high schools, particularly those with a history of student violence (ie CW Jefferys).

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119)

“Huddle Up” Against Bullying campaign

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427)

Now, pound for pound, can you think of any other professional sports team that gives this much back to the community? I’m not talking just money (and they do give a lot of that) I’m talking about that personal touch that really leaves a lasting impression.

It’s fine to not want the Argonauts to play in BMO. But in hoping and praying for the team to fail and the league to go under, you’re praying for an end to all those good charitable works as well.
Nobody cares. That's good for them that they do so much good work, but they still aren't welcome in our stadium.

Email to CFL execs sent.

[jloome]

I've been a reporter a long time and have seen the general reactions to a lot of wacky suggestions in sports. But this one takes the cake.

If it involves a shorter field, this will never happen. Done. Period. The fans from other CFL cities would revolt, editorialists would scream bloody murder over the sacrilege, the Argos would be national pariahs until the decision were reversed.

Seriously, never gonna happen.

[FluSH]

Let me just say that, for the most part, I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of civility present in this forum so far. Given my past experiences commenting on the Argos and BMO field, this is a downright love-in.

For those of you (some but not all posters) who have been slagging the Toronto Argonauts and hoping for both the team and league to fold, I'd like you to watch one or two of the following videos:

Big Men, Big Hearts / Big Kiss Foundation

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10313)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9905)

Argonauts Community Work – 2009 Overview

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/10303)

Feeding the Homeless, Thanksgiving Dinner

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9437)

“Level the Playing Field” – Bringing football back to low-income area high schools, particularly those with a history of student violence (ie CW Jefferys).

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8831)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9567)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/9119)

“Huddle Up” Against Bullying campaign

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/8979)
http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427 (http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/6427)

Now, pound for pound, can you think of any other professional sports team that gives this much back to the community? I’m not talking just money (and they do give a lot of that) I’m talking about that personal touch that really leaves a lasting impression.

It’s fine to not want the Argonauts to play in BMO. But in hoping and praying for the team to fail and the league to go under, you’re praying for an end to all those good charitable works as well.


Listen... just stay out of BMO FIELD... or it will be a full blown WAR. Outside of the MLS... There are Futbol clubs out there that don't want to share stadiums with other Futbol clubs and are causing outrage (i.e. Liverpool/Everton).... and we are discussing sharing a Stadium with a different league/sport? Hell No!!!

[Oldtimer]

Seriously, never gonna happen.

Even if the threat is that without it, the Argos fold?

I'm sorry, but the threat is real.

[ManUtd4ever]

Even if the threat is that without it, the Argos fold?

I'm sorry, but the threat is real.

I think the threat is that without it, the pathetic Argos ownership will sell the team, then new ownership can look for a reasonable solution...

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/alomar-merits-call-from-hall/article1382054/


Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon may or may not be underwritten by David Braley and can’t make money at the Rogers Centre despite playing rent-free thanks to a handshake with the late Ted Rogers. And now the Toronto Argonauts co-owners are talking about bastardizing Toronto FC’s home stadium, BMO Field, for their CFL team?

TFC owner Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment won’t go for the retrofitting required but it’s the City of Toronto and it’s time to take to the barricades: Soccer is a growth sport with international status and obvious public health benefits. The CFL is none of that. BMO Field doesn’t need its new grass pitch chewed up if it is to become the national home of the most popular sport in the world.

Anybody else think the end game for these guys is to try to use their local connections to wreck BMO, then turn the team over to Braley, the B.C. Lions owner?

[ensco]

Putting aside questions of fairness, which are significant (ie the history of Argo ownership leaving the BMO deal before), or keeping BMO soccer-only per se, councillors need to focus on the following....

The Argos are not automatically entitled to the same terms that TFC/MLSE have at BMO.

Given the financial questions around the Argos, one of the City's requirements must be that they receive significant sums in escrow or similar. For instance, the Argos should have to pay rent, and the costs of converting the field back and forth, in advance.

[NewCity]

I just bought my first pair of Argo's season tickets, right in the front row of the new cheapie blue sections. $169 a pop. In case they do move into OUR HOUSE, I'm wearing my TFC gear to every game...how funny would that be....if we all did that. It would make the ARGO's look so gay when the crowd is wearing their TFC jerseys instead of their ARGO's. Remember, they are LIVE on CBC for every game. That would be priceless. Maybe they would get the message then.

[Whoop]

Say what you will about MLSE. Even though I'm not their biggest fans and they got a sweetheart deal with the stadium from all levels of government, at least they have put money BACK into the stadium.

If the Argos want to move have them foot the bill for whatever changes are required. I'm sure it would be at least $4-5 million.

Now are they going to do that if it ends up being a disaster, and say they only get 15,000, and it ends up costing them more money?

And what are the stadium plans for the Pan Am Games? I haven't checked... but I'm sure there has to be some sort of open air stadium for the track and field events, no?

[Fort York Redcoat]

^But well out of the city, Whoopee. By then it'll be too late. The A's need a home next season since their deal expired with Rogers Centre.

[Whoop]

I used to like the CFL...

[Enterprise Captain]

Putting aside questions of fairness, which are significant (ie the history of Argo ownership leaving the BMO deal before), or keeping BMO soccer-only per se, councillors need to focus on the following....

The Argos are not automatically entitled to the same terms that TFC/MLSE have at BMO.

Given the financial questions around the Argos, one of the City's requirements must be that they receive significant sums in escrow or similar. For instance, the Argos should have to pay rent, and the costs of converting the field back and forth, in advance.

Some of the terms for the Argos playing at BMO Field were laid out in the original agreement before BMO Field was built, see here (http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document%201%20Appendix%20C%20-%20BMO%20Toronto%20Report.pdf). Check out page 23 sec. (6.) Anyway I just like to say I know this is the internet and things get blown out of proportion but I'm a fan of both teams and I have to agree with some others that have posted here that the irrational hatred between the two groups is not necessary. Both fan bases are more similar then people would like to admit. There are passionate fans on both sides of the fence that want what is best for the team they support. Many Argos fans also don't want the Argos to move to BMO Field so I don't see why the two groups don't try to get a protest of some sort together to express their mutual view something like "Football Fans United against the Move to BMO Field." Also I know many people here have been calling Mulder a troll est. but I know the guy personally and he is a real class act. He is one of the best supporters the Argos have. He is always out at the tailgates before Argos games cooking up a storm on the barbeque for everyone and asks for nothing in return. Just because he has a different point of view doesn't mean he is a douche.

[Whoop]

From a standard economic point of view, Grey Cup aside (which could never be held at BMO) how much growth potential is there for the Argos and for the CFL in general?

I mean when I'm asked to invest my money in a venture isn't it for future growth?

[MisterMacphisto]

I'm contacting all of the Argos Sponsors to let them know I am boycotting their products if the Argos move into BMO and that I will encourage anyone who will listen to do the same.

Click here for list Argos Sponsors (http://argonauts.ca/page/coporate-partners-test)

President's Choice Financial Contact page - Click here (http://www.banking.pcfinancial.ca/a/helpful/helpfulInfo.page).

Bet365.net Contact page - Click here (http://help.bet365.com/home/mainpage.asp?popmembers=5020&isb=0&lng=1)

Nissan Canada Contact page - Click here (http://www.nissan.ca/common/footer/en/contact.html)

Tim Horton's Contact page - Click here (http://www.timhortons.com/ca/en/contact.html)

Rona Canada Contact page - Click here (https://shop.rona.ca/member/customer-service)

Wendy's Canada Contact page - Click here (http://www.wendys.ca/contact.jsp)

Jack Astor's Contact email - jacksfeedbag@sircorp.com

Moore's Clothing Contact page - Click here (http://www.mooresclothing.com/mor/company.jsp?tag=contactUs)

Wiser's Whisky Contact email - wisers@corby.ca

Mr. Lube Contact page - Click here (http://www.mrlube.com/about/contact.htm)

Popeye's Chicken Canada Contact page - Click here (http://www.afce.com/our-company/contact-us/)

Stagg Chilli Contact page - Click here (http://www.staggchili.com/default.asp?req=contactus/)

Budweiser Canada Contact email - budweiser@beerdesk.com

Jones Soda Co Contact page - Click here (http://www.jonessoda.com/files/contact_us.php)

Jolt Cola Contact page - Click here (http://www.joltenergy.com/popups/contactUs.html)

Pizza Pizza Contact page - Click here (http://www.pizzapizza.ca/PPLWeb/CommandServlet?command=screenscmd&screenID=ft_contactus)

BF Goodrich Contact page - Click here (http://www.crdhna.com/contact/ca_bfg/contact_us.htm)

Fisherman's Friends Contact page - Click here (http://www.fishermansfriend.ca/contactus.html)

Woodbine Contact page - Click here (http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/ContactUs/index.aspx)

Purolator Contact email - sponsorship@purolator.com

Nolitours Contact email - noli-ventes@transat.com

Fabulous Savings Contact page - Click here (http://www.fabuloussavings.com/html/contact.php)

Tena Contact page - Click here (http://www.tena.ca/english/Contact-us/)

Milk Bone Contact page - Click here (http://www.delmonte.com/contactus/contact.aspx)

Reebok Contact email - corporate@reebok.com

Sirius Canada Contact page - Click here (http://siriuscanada.ca/en/auxiliary/inquiries.aspx)

Sunoco Contact email - info@sunocomail.ca

Autohound Contact page - Click here (http://www.autohound.ca/Contact/Default.aspx)

2001 Audio and Video Contact email - corpsales@2001audiovideo.com (Only contact info I could find on site)

RedTag Vacations Contact page - Click here (http://www.redtag.ca/customer-support.php)

Rogers Contact page - Click here (http://www.rogers.com/web/Rogers.portal;jsessionid=hZcsLZmVrH9fCmRnnRyMcBZyJ x1Rx4GrRjRGdgDCGjXQKb811cPQ!-1592155753?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=contactus_page&customer_type=Residential)

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Also I know many people here have been calling Mulder a troll est. but I know the guy personally and he is a real class act. He is one of the best supporters the Argos have. He is always out at the tailgates before Argos games cooking up a storm on the barbeque for everyone and asks for nothing in return. Just because he has a different point of view doesn't mean he is a douche.

That may well be, but he came and trolled this board; hence, troll. Nice people and not nice people can both be trolls.

[CretanBull]

From a standard economic point of view, Grey Cup aside (which could never be held at BMO) how much growth potential is there for the Argos and for the CFL in general?

I mean when I'm asked to invest my money in a venture isn't it for future growth?

Outside of Toronto, the CFL is huge. The Grey Cup got 6.1 million viewers this year. I think the belief is that if the league could catch on in Toronto and attract our city's investment $$ the league could grow - teams in Halifax, Moncton, a return to Ottawa. That all depends on Toronto, its hard to have a Canada-wide league without a significant team in the country's largest/richest city (imagine the NBA without the Knicks or Lakers).

The dream is that if the Argos move into a more intimate setting, interest in the game will explode - as it did in Montreal when the Alouettes moved out of the Big O and into McGill. Its a pretty safe bet IMO.

People who think that the CFL will never make any kind of exception for the Argos are probably wrong because the league sees their future success and expansion hinging on a strong team in Toronto. Will the league go for some of the crazy stuff being rumoured? Probably not. But if there's some wiggle room, I think they'd settle for it...its too important for them not to.

My point is that this is a very real threat to us, and not something that should be dismissed. Getting out of the Rogers Center is important to the Argos and the CFL, at this point other than BMO - what other options are there for them? (especially short term solutions).

[CretanBull]

I'm contacting all of the Argos Sponsors to let them know I am boycotting their products if the Argos move into BMO and that I will encourage anyone who will listen to do the same.

Click here for list Argos Sponsors (http://argonauts.ca/page/coporate-partners-test)

Excellent. I mod should sticky this and we should start a letter writting campaign.

[Get In There]

Some of the terms for the Argos playing at BMO Field were laid out in the original agreement before BMO Field was built, see here (http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document%201%20Appendix%20C%20-%20BMO%20Toronto%20Report.pdf). Check out page 23 sec. (6.) Anyway I just like to say I know this is the internet and things get blown out of proportion but I'm a fan of both teams and I have to agree with some others that have posted here that the irrational hatred between the two groups is not necessary. Both fan bases are more similar then people would like to admit. There are passionate fans on both sides of the fence that want what is best for the team they support. Many Argos fans also don't want the Argos to move to BMO Field so I don't see why the two groups don't try to get a protest of some sort together to express their mutual view something like "Football Fans United against the Move to BMO Field." Also I know many people here have been calling Mulder a troll est. but I know the guy personally and he is a real class act. He is one of the best supporters the Argos have. He is always out at the tailgates before Argos games cooking up a storm on the barbeque for everyone and asks for nothing in return. Just because he has a different point of view doesn't mean he is a douche.



Thanks for the link Captain...interesting.

ah, You must realize that some people here troll by trolling for supposed trolls.....don't worry, by next week he'll be agreeing with Mulder.

B

[Derko]

Just Fuck Off and leave Proper Football alone.

[Cashcleaner]

Anyway I just like to say I know this is the internet and things get blown out of proportion but I'm a fan of both teams and I have to agree with some others that have posted here that the irrational hatred between the two groups is not necessary. Both fan bases are more similar then people would like to admit. There are passionate fans on both sides of the fence that want what is best for the team they support. Many Argos fans also don't want the Argos to move to BMO Field so I don't see why the two groups don't try to get a protest of some sort together to express their mutual view something like "Football Fans United against the Move to BMO Field." Also I know many people here have been calling Mulder a troll est. but I know the guy personally and he is a real class act. He is one of the best supporters the Argos have. He is always out at the tailgates before Argos games cooking up a storm on the barbeque for everyone and asks for nothing in return. Just because he has a different point of view doesn't mean he is a douche.


I've been okay with much of his posts because I myself used to be a HUGE Argonauts fan and I still have much respect for the team and its fans. The thing is, it's more than a little disingenuous for him to come onto the forums here and seriously question why so many of us are feeling threatened by the latest news and taking offence to some of the more
"colourful" posts when the same sort of shit-talking about us is going on at the Argonaut fan site he frequents.

I totally agree that many Argonaut fans are also resisting this proposal to play at BMO Field and that we shouldn't alienate their entire fanbase because we're pissed off. As I mentioned earlier, why would we piss off our potential allies in this argument? But that said, let's be clear that this anti-Argo posts on these boards are no different than the anti-TFC ones on his.

[ManUtd4ever]

Outside of Toronto, the CFL is huge. The Grey Cup got 6.1 million viewers this year. I think the belief is that if the league could catch on in Toronto and attract our city's investment $$ the league could grow - teams in Halifax, Moncton, a return to Ottawa. That all depends on Toronto, its hard to have a Canada-wide league without a significant team in the country's largest/richest city (imagine the NBA without the Knicks or Lakers).

The dream is that if the Argos move into a more intimate setting, interest in the game will explode - as it did in Montreal when the Alouettes moved out of the Big O and into McGill. Its a pretty safe bet IMO.

People who think that the CFL will never make any kind of exception for the Argos are probably wrong because the league sees their future success and expansion hinging on a strong team in Toronto. Will the league go for some of the crazy stuff being rumoured? Probably not. But if there's some wiggle room, I think they'd settle for it...its too important for them not to.

My point is that this is a very real threat to us, and not something that should be dismissed. Getting out of the Rogers Center is important to the Argos and the CFL, at this point other than BMO - what other options are there for them? (especially short term solutions).

In theory you're right, but how can BMO Field be the answer? It is not suitable for Canadian Football. End of Story. And another thing, even if the Argos were already playing in a brand new intimate CFL stadium the fan interest would still be waning because of the current product on the field! This is the main issue with the Argos at the moment. When the Argos were a winning club they had no trouble drawing crowds of 30,000-40,000 people...

[MisterMacphisto]

Excellent. I mod should sticky this and we should start a letter writting campaign.

Agree.... a campaign and specific calls to action needs to be organized.

[CretanBull]

^^I'm not arguing for it because its the last thing in the world that I want, but I don't think that it's as simple as "BMO isn't suitable for the CFL end of story". BMO is the only realistic alternative to the Rogers Centre. Trust me, the decision is going to come down to "What's better for the Argos, staying in a bad situation at the Rogers Centre or playing in a compromised BMO?".

Remember, the city is going to make its decision based on whats best for the tax payer's investment. IF the Argos at BMO means 10 (or whatever) home games of them paying rent, selling out the parking lot etc. and expanding the stadium to 25,000 seats (which the city will also benefit from when those seats are sold to TFC fans) it's a done deal.

Short of a MASSIVE protest campaign, our best hope is that the CFL and Argos can't agree on a way to make the Argos work at BMO...but we should expect the CFL to be flexible if they think that the Argos at BMO will stabilize their league, allow them to expand, attract new money etc.

[billyfly]

You know what? Since we didn't make the playoffs, since the Argos are coming, let's chg the TF logo/badge as well just to complete the trifecta of crappy news.

[TFCRegina]

http://www.saskriders.com/page/board_of_directors

Another place to complain is the box at the bottom. Comments have to be approved by somebody to be posted, but this means that they actually have to read them. Flood it with comments and somebody will see the complaints, even if they don't permit the post.

[TFCRegina]

And you can probably do that on all the CFL websites.

[denime]

Say what you will about MLSE. Even though I'm not their biggest fans and they got a sweetheart deal with the stadium from all levels of government, at least they have put money BACK into the stadium.

If the Argos want to move have them foot the bill for whatever changes are required. I'm sure it would be at least $4-5 million.

Now are they going to do that if it ends up being a disaster, and say they only get 15,000, and it ends up costing them more money?

And what are the stadium plans for the Pan Am Games? I haven't checked... but I'm sure there has to be some sort of open air stadium for the track and field events, no?


Yes it is,but Argos owners shit the bed again.
Tie-cats are getting a stadium partially subsidized by Government.

[Enterprise Captain]

^^I'm not arguing for it because its the last thing in the world that I want, but I don't think that it's as simple as "BMO isn't suitable for the CFL end of story". BMO is the only realistic alternative to the Rogers Centre. Trust me, the decision is going to come down to "What's better for the Argos, staying in a bad situation at the Rogers Centre or playing in a compromised BMO?".

Remember, the city is going to make its decision based on whats best for the tax payer's investment. IF the Argos at BMO means 10 (or whatever) home games of them paying rent, selling out the parking lot etc. and expanding the stadium to 25,000 seats (which the city will also benefit from when those seats are sold to TFC fans) it's a done deal.

Short of a MASSIVE protest campaign, our best hope is that the CFL and Argos can't agree on a way to make the Argos work at BMO...but we should expect the CFL to be flexible if they think that the Argos at BMO will stabilize their league, allow them to expand, attract new money etc.

This is why I think it would be a good idea to open up a dialog with the Argos supporters who are also against moving to BMO Field and work together to bring the point across.

[Hitcho]

This is why I think it would be a good idea to open up a dialog with the Argos supporters who are also against moving to BMO Field and work together to bring the point across.

Well we're all waiting for the RPB LEADERSHIP to come up with something.

Seriously guys, I don't want to question you, but throw us a friggin bone here. What are you doing? Who are you speaking to? Is anything happening at all?

THIS IS A SERIOUS ISSUE AND MEDIA REPORTS SAY IT WILL BE DECIDED BEFORE THE END OF DECEMBER. Throw in the holidays and that means:

we have 2 weeks


we've heard that something is taking palce behind the scenes. but don't you think that maybe now would be a good time to start letting in the masses on the plan of action? i mean, we're all sitting here sending e-mails out and hoping right now. but an organised voice that represents a large number of people is louder than a single voice.

i hope to god the plan isn't just "see if it gets through and then we can protest AFTERWARDS"...

at least give us a more convincing assertion that somethign is being done/organised by the RPB leadership, because this silence thing is kind of wearing thin now.

like i said, i don't want to question you, but we sit and wait for a lead to follow right now and some of us are getting antzy...

[jloome]

Said it before, say it again: only in Toronto would people consider this a serious threat.

There is no way the CFL will amend the field size rules. It's just not going to happen. The PR backlash would be ridiculous.

And the Argos aren't going to fold unless they relocate. Again, ridiculous.

They may be audacious enough to try it, but the rest of the league wont' accept it. They've been through too many "try this" dumb scenarios before.

[SteeltownBhoy]

I agree!!

The silence from RPB leadership has been deafening!!

Is is not the type of issue that a supporter's group should be front and center ???

[Jack]

Guys, we are gathering a lot of information behind the scenes on this issue. It's not as clear-cut as it might seem.

But it is very high priority and I know both Phil and Boris are working hard to determine the best course of action with the information we are getting.

In the mean time, the actions being taken with letter writing and getting the word out are the correct actions and should be continued.

More on this to come, rest assured.

[jabbronies]

I guess my only question is how valuable are the argos to the CFL? Would the CFL be willing to change the field size just for the Argos? How will the CFL feel that the Argos are moving into a smaller stadium? Will they be willing to have the Grey Cup in a stadium with half the attendance it could be at Rogers Centre?

[Hitcho]

Guys, we are gathering a lot of information behind the scenes on this issue. It's not as clear-cut as it might seem.

But it is very high priority and I know both Phil and Boris are working hard to determine the best course of action with the information we are getting.

In the mean time, the actions being taken with letter writing and getting the word out are the correct actions and should be continued.

More on this to come, rest assured.

Appredciate the response Jack but it's not really what we were after! :D:D:D

[Jack]

Appredciate the response Jack but it's not really what we were after! :D:D:D
Understandable.

But would you like the generals to send the troops on a charge without a battle plan?

Boris and Phil will both respond to this issue, don't worry.

I appreciate the urgency as I feel the same way.

[Hitcho]

Said it before, say it again: only in Toronto would people consider this a serious threat.

There is no way the CFL will amend the field size rules. It's just not going to happen. The PR backlash would be ridiculous.

And the Argos aren't going to fold unless they relocate. Again, ridiculous.

They may be audacious enough to try it, but the rest of the league wont' accept it. They've been through too many "try this" dumb scenarios before.

Jezza - respect your opinion, but at this point that's all it is. There are others on here saying we should be very worried about this and hinting that they know more than they are letting on.

To me, this is too important to just sit back and say "never gonna happen". There's a very interesting post above which sets out the iprotance of Toronto to the CFL and the concessions that the argo owners may be made in order to keep the team going.

I'm glad that someone with a sensible head seems tot hink this is a non-starter, but I still think we need to do everything we possibly can, collectively, to make sure it's dead in the water.

[Hitcho]

Understandable.

But would you like the generals to send the troops on a charge without a battle plan?

Boris and Phil will both respond to this issue, don't worry.

I appreciate the urgency as I feel the same way.

No, but they could give us a sense of what the battle plan might be. Maybe we could help? Ultimately TFC fans are not very important players in this decision - our opinion isn;t given any wieght by the city, the cfl or the argo owners and they are the major players here. MLSE probably care what we think, but they have declared themselves to be switzerland (unwillingly I expect).

If the CFL approve this, we're probably sunk. And that decision is supposed to be made before the end of the month. Whatever we're going to do to try and sway this matter, we really need to start doing it right now.

ANyways, just my 2c. I don't think we can really have much impact in this anyway, sad as that may sound.

[Jack]

No, but they could give us a sense of what the battle plan might be. Maybe we could help? Ultimately TFC fans are not very important players in this decision - our opinion isn;t given any wieght by the city, the cfl or the argo owners and they are the major players here. MLSE probably care what we think, but they have declared themselves to be switzerland (unwillingly I expect).

If the CFL approve this, we're probably sunk. And that decision is supposed to be made before the end of the month. Whatever we're going to do to try and sway this matter, we really need to start doing it right now.

ANyways, just my 2c. I don't think we can really have much impact in this anyway, sad as that may sound.
Again, I hear what you're saying and guidance will be forthcoming as to any organized RPB efforts :D

Things take some time to work out and make sure we are using our small amount of influence to the greatest effect.

[ensco]

Don't just do something, stand there!

Disagree with the idea that this obviously needs an big, visible coordinated response.

Face it, the situation in Argoland is dire, this has the feeling of a death rattle...is it really in anybody's interest for TFC or its fans to be responsible for killing the Argos?

This might be a case where people write letters, excellent, but it's better for the institutions involved (TFC, MLS, MLSE and supporters groups) to let the obvious facts speak for themselves.

[Boris]

hey guys,
Its been a very hectic morning for me. Phil (RooneyRPB) has been working very hard on this for the past week and is currently finding out some facts for us.

as soon as him and i speak we will release our official plan of attack.

I will keep everyone posted...

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Don't just do something, stand there!

Disagree with the idea that this obviously needs an big, visible coordinated response.

Face it, the situation in Argoland is dire, this has the feeling of a death rattle...is it really in anybody's interest for TFC or its fans to be responsible for killing the Argos?

This might be a case where people write letters, excellent, but it's better for the institutions involved (TFC, MLS, MLSE and supporters groups) to let the obvious facts speak for themselves.
I don't think it's either the Argos move to BMO and survive or stay at the Rogers Centre and die. What are you trying to say here?

[ensco]

I don't think it's either the Argos move to BMO and survive or stay at the Rogers Centre and die. What are you trying to say here?

There's something totally cracked about this proposal, and the way it's being put out there. That letter from the Argos to their ticket holders (it is being discussed in the other thread), it's crazy!

So why should TFC or MLSE (or anyone else) publicly respond to it? All you can wind up with is a black eye. Better to work behind the scenes.

[Bloor West FC]

Kerry Joseph speaks out!!


Casino Rama Grill Room: Kerry Joseph - November 2, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Ap0yeEB8o

[Kevvv]

Kerry Joseph speaks out!!


Casino Rama Grill Room: Kerry Joseph - November 2, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Ap0yeEB8o


Can't say I like the interviewer, but Joseph makes some important points:

- As a QB, he'd rather be protected from the elements
- They get 23K + now, and could/would draw 30-35K if they had a winning team
- The Dome atmosphere can be good (he mentions the 2007 GC, and times when the Argos are in a close game), but again they need a winning team to see this.

[Kevvv]

(not to metion, if the Argos build a team that could win at BMO, with its short and narrow field, wouldn't they be at a much bigger disadvantage on the road?)

[Roogsy]

I simply don't get the math for all of this.

They are capping their maximum attendance for good at 21k, 22 if and when they expand the stadium. So in essence they are reducing their attendance by 1k and completely eliminating any potential surges in attendance for big games and playoffs.

And all so that they have the wonderful pleasure of dishing out $20-30million to retrofit the stadium, not to mention the added costs of maintaining the pitch as well as they can (and it won't be cheap or easy) for soccer games.

How much revenue do the Argos produce where this can possibly make any economic sense? I just don't understand all of this. This is like trying to swim laps in a kiddie pool when an Olympic sized pool is readily available.

[rocker]

- The Dome atmosphere can be good (he mentions the 2007 GC, and times when the Argos are in a close game), but again they need a winning team to see this.

yeah. i still don't get the complaints about atmosphere.
Skydome is FINE in that regard on one condition --> pack it with at least 35K.

I will admit, in my pre-TFC days, I actually attended an Argos game (SHAME ON ME!). It was a playoff game and the atmosphere was fine with a packed house. I was in the second level and the view was excellent.

So the solution is improve your team (don't finish with what, 3-4 wins?), pack more people in, and atmosphere problem is solved.

If Argos think Argo fans are gonna bring the atmosphere that TFC fans bring, I think they'll be in for a tough lesson. I honestly do not know what the atmosphere was like for the Argos at Exhibition Stadium back in the day. I do know people complained about cold, rain, and fog. So then you'll have Argo fans complaining about the cold, the rain, the crowded concourses and packed washrooms... and soon it'll seem like a piece of shit to them.

Yeah, Skydome ain't perfect. It has it's flaws. But BMO Field has a completely different set of flaws for the CFL as well. It's trading one set for the other. the Argos would still be leasing a stadium.. like at Skydome..

[rocker]

They are capping their maximum attendance for good at 21k, 22 if and when they expand the stadium. So in essence they are reducing their attendance by 1k and completely eliminating any potential surges in attendance for big games and playoffs.

of course they'll probably slink back to the Skydome for big games (that's what Montreal does). it'd be like your girlfriend going back to the ex-boyfriend once in awhile for a hookup!

[CruisinCanuck]

yeah. i still don't get the complaints about atmosphere.
Skydome is FINE in that regard on one condition --> pack it with at least 35K.

I will admit, in my pre-TFC days, I actually attended an Argos game (SHAME ON ME!). It was a playoff game and the atmosphere was fine with a packed house. I was in the second level and the view was excellent.

So the solution is improve your team (don't finish with what, 3-4 wins?), pack more people in, and atmosphere problem is solved.

If Argos think Argo fans are gonna bring the atmosphere that TFC fans bring, I think they'll be in for a tough lesson. I honestly do not know what the atmosphere was like for the Argos at Exhibition Stadium back in the day. I do know people complained about cold, rain, and fog. So then you'll have Argo fans complaining about the cold, the rain, the crowded concourses and packed washrooms... and soon it'll seem like a piece of shit to them.

Yeah, Skydome ain't perfect. It has it's flaws. But BMO Field has a completely different set of flaws for the CFL as well. It's trading one set for the other. the Argos would still be leasing a stadium.. like at Skydome..This. I honestly think the bigger issue is the ownerships incompetence. If they actually had a decent team those 26k crowds would be closer to 32-33k. The argo owners seem to want to play cheap. They back out of BMO, when they actually had to make an investment (although they do pay rent a RC, according to them anyways). Yet now, they want into BMO?

Do the CFL, TFC, and the argos a favour and just sell the team already. The argos need owners, not some fans with money claiming to be owners. After that, they play poor. Somehow they still want to buy the Phoenix Coyotes? Something doesn't click. Also I don't think the argos are losing money like they claim. They're just cheap.

Just a fyi, the skydome was spearheaded due to bad conditions at the ex in the Grey Cup one year.

[ensco]

Just a fyi, the skydome was spearheaded due to bad conditions at the ex in the Grey Cup one year.

The 1982 Grey Cup was often cited as the catalyst at the time, but it wasn't really that.

The real catalyst was that Exhibition Stadium was a bit of a joke. Only about 10,000 good seats for baseball, the rest had horrible sightlines. The Jays were coming on as a real force in Toronto sports in those days. Labatt's, who owned the Jays, drove the deal. (An aside - Carling O'Keefe had the Argos for sale for most of the 80s - what else is new?). Skydome was great for the teams - all they had to do was sign a long-term lease and pay in $5 million each (a bunch of other corporations also became sponsors for $5 million, for which they got access to the boxes, and stadium exclusivity).

At that time, the City was struggling with how best to develop the rail lands. The province (and maybe the Feds?), which controlled some of the best parcels, got involved because Skydome was going to help Toronto become the convention capital of North America (at the time, McCormick Place in Chicago was brand new and was the envy of every city in North America - Toronto wanted one something like it).

A guy named Chuck Magwood (where is he now, I wonder?) came in and sold the City/Province on this vision for a hybrid sports/convention model, with a retractable roof, maybe we'll glue a hotel on one end of it...

[CruisinCanuck]

Okay, I'm pretty young so I was just saying from what I've heard. Thanks for the info!

[ensco]

This is the best part - they had the lamest mascot in existence in there..."Domer the Turtle!"

http://infieldfly.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/domer-where-are-you/

[Kevvv]

A guy named Chuck Magwood (where is he now, I wonder?) came in and sold the City/Province on this vision for a hybrid sports/convention model, with a retractable roof, maybe we'll glue a hotel on one end of it...

It'll cost $75 mil to build...




And all so that they have the wonderful pleasure of dishing out $20-30million to retrofit the stadium

Not if they don't retrofit it, which would be the plan. There can be no retrofit this winter, with the grass installation going on.


not to mention the added costs of maintaining the pitch as well as they can (and it won't be cheap or easy) for soccer games.

That would be an added cost to them, and they'd have to pay for it out of the gate: fewer seats to sell, added cost to recover. Would Argos fans take a price hike?


yeah. i still don't get the complaints about atmosphere.
Skydome is FINE in that regard on one condition --> pack it with at least 35K.

I will admit, in my pre-TFC days, I actually attended an Argos game (SHAME ON ME!). It was a playoff game and the atmosphere was fine with a packed house. I was in the second level and the view was excellent.


Having never seen the Argos at the Dome - between the roof and the layout of the seats, I can see the place as potentially louder than our open-roof stadium.

[Whoop]

I have been to one Argo game in my life - and that was from tickets I won at stag.

Found the atmosphere bland... this was back in the days when the Argos were decent.

Always been told if you want to watch a CFL game... go to Ivor Wynne.

[Kevvv]

This is the best part - they had the lamest mascot in existence in there..."Domer the Turtle!"

http://infieldfly.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/domer-where-are-you/


I have a stuffed Domer at home.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Kerry Joseph may lead one of the crappiest offenses of all time, but he makes some great points in that vid.

[Derko]

Just Fuck Off and leave Proper Football alone.

Actually my Parents had Argo season tickets when they played at Exhibition Stadium, We really enjoyed it, but I don't feel the Argos should come to BMO because BMO is a Soccer Specific Stadium and should stay that way, we get a real pitch, the game will only improve, we might get to see more top quality football, and some crackpots can't see that!! I will be disappointed if it happens.

[SteeltownBhoy]

It's been extremely quiet the last few days.

Are we waiting on the CFL report about the suitability of BMO FIELD for the ARGOS??

I assume that if the ARGOS are given the green light from the league, that any campeign RPB would mount would begin then??

I

[deltox]

Domer was the Skydome mascot - not the argos mascot

[Cashcleaner]

It's been extremely quiet the last few days.

Are we waiting on the CFL report about the suitability of BMO FIELD for the ARGOS??

I assume that if the ARGOS are given the green light from the league, that any campeign RPB would mount would begin then??

I

No. The campaign has already begun. We have been contacting the CFL and demanding that the Argonauts respect the integrity of the Canadian Football playing surface and that BMO Field would not be able to allow them to do that.

[Hitcho]

^ also contact the Argos and threaten to qwithdraw your support in terms of ticket and merch purchases if this goes ahead. I told them I would also stop watching on TV because of the joke field size. If they get enough threats along these lines then it may make even the idiot owners of the Argos think twice.

SOme people have been contacting the city too. I have a long letter to TO Council drafted, but I am holding it back until it becomes needed. Keep the powder dry on that one in case it's not needed is my approach.

[Pookie]

It really is absurd when you think about it.

Public Funds are going to pour into Toronto for the Pan Am games and a new stadium IS being built.

This stadium will house 13,000 fans for the Pan Am Games and then be expanded to 25-28k after the games and be used for a CFL Football team.

The catch?

It's being built in Hamilton. :facepalm:

[James17930]

It really is absurd when you think about it.

Public Funds are going to pour into Toronto for the Pan Am games and a new stadium IS being built.

This stadium will house 13,000 fans for the Pan Am Games and then be expanded to 25-28k after the games and be used for a CFL Football team.

The catch?

It's being built in Hamilton. :facepalm:

I know -- I don't know how this became the plan.

But it just shows how off the ball the Argo owners are -- they should have been making noise about this during the bid process to try to get it in T.O.

[Bars92]

It really is absurd when you think about it.

Public Funds are going to pour into Toronto for the Pan Am games and a new stadium IS being built.

This stadium will house 13,000 fans for the Pan Am Games and then be expanded to 25-28k after the games and be used for a CFL Football team.

The catch?

It's being built in Hamilton. :facepalm:

Ivor Wynne is an aged facility and needs to be replaced soon. Toronto already has a modern facility that can support Canadian Football League games -- its called Rogers Centre.

[Blizzard]

I know -- I don't know how this became the plan.

But it just shows how off the ball the Argo owners are -- they should have been making noise about this during the bid process to try to get it in T.O.

It become the plan because it makes sense. Toronto does not necessarily have to have a new stadium. Hamilton desperately needs to replace a deteriorating Ivor Wynne stadium.

The Pan-Am games are not Toronto's games. There will be events taking place all around the Golden Horseshoe so it only makes sense to spread the infrastructure around especially in places where it is badly needed i.e. Hamilton!

[Redcoe15]

I just thought of something. Why don't they just build this new stadium in Oakville? Then, both the Argos and Ti-Cats could both share the facility?

[Dirk Diggler]

I just thought of something. Why don't they just build this new stadium in Oakville? Then, both the Argos and Ti-Cats could both share the facility?

That is going to ruin both franchises ... well, not so much the Argos because they are already in the shitters but it will definitely ruin the Ti-Cats ... can't imagine a lot of Hamiltonians supporting a team based in Oakville.

[Roogsy]

Not to sound like a douchebag, because it's an honest question.

But is there anything else to support in Hamilton?

Sharing can happen in pointyball...the Jets and Giants did it.

[Dirk Diggler]

Not to sound like a douchebag, because it's an honest question.

But is there anything else to support in Hamilton?

Sharing can happen in pointyball...the Jets and Giants did it.

There is the Hamilton Bulldogs ... and after that I guess the Marauders football team but for all intents and purposes, the Ti-Cats are the only show in town.

[James17930]

It become the plan because it makes sense. Toronto does not necessarily have to have a new stadium. Hamilton desperately needs to replace a deteriorating Ivor Wynne stadium.

The Pan-Am games are not Toronto's games. There will be events taking place all around the Golden Horseshoe so it only makes sense to spread the infrastructure around especially in places where it is badly needed i.e. Hamilton!

Fair enough.

[Blizzard]

Not to sound like a douchebag, because it's an honest question.

But is there anything else to support in Hamilton?

Sharing can happen in pointyball...the Jets and Giants did it.

Yes but they're both New York teams. It's not comparable to taking two teams from two clearly delineated cities and then plonking them into a stadium halfway between their two cities.

It's (big) apples and oranges.

[Pookie]

That is going to ruin both franchises ... well, not so much the Argos because they are already in the shitters but it will definitely ruin the Ti-Cats ... can't imagine a lot of Hamiltonians supporting a team based in Oakville.

The New York Giants and the New York Jets both share a stadium and play their games in New Jersey. They seem to be doing fine.

I wouldn't say it's Big Apples vs Oranges. If you threw it somewhere between the 403 and 407 area it's about a 20 min drive from Hamilton and half hour from downtown TO (much shorter for Argo fans in Brampton or Mississauga).

The Ottawa Senators play 30 mins away in Kanata. They draw just fine. I would think there is merit here without dismissing it entirely.

Surely 2 tenants... playing the same sport.... in a publicly funded building would be a better use of financial resources... no?


It become the plan because it makes sense. Toronto does not necessarily have to have a new stadium. Hamilton desperately needs to replace a deteriorating Ivor Wynne stadium.

The Pan-Am games are not Toronto's games. There will be events taking place all around the Golden Horseshoe so it only makes sense to spread the infrastructure around especially in places where it is badly needed i.e. Hamilton!

Apparently, for the survival of the team, Toronto also (suddenly) needs a new stadium.

[Oldtimer]

I've posted on the Argo's fans board:

http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401&p=13848#p13848

They've let me on there, after initially rejecting me. :lol:

[ManUtd4ever]

I've posted on the Argo's fans board:

http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401&p=13848#p13848

They've let me on there, after initially rejecting me. :lol:

Excellent post...as a fan of both sports you've echoed my sentiments entirely...

[Hitcho]

I've posted on the Argo's fans board:

http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401&p=13848#p13848

They've let me on there, after initially rejecting me. :lol:

I'm curious - how do you see BMO Field accommodating both the Argos and TFC?

Specifically, how do you see the following points working out:

- pitch quality after Argos games (Wembley Stadium took 3 weeks and still couldn't get the quality back for England vs Croatia after an NFL game);

- total removal of all CFL lines and markings (not just fade them out);

- stadium livery (do you seriously think that the Argos will agree to leave it all red if they are considered an equal tenant of the stadium?);

- fixture congestion when the seasons (including pre-season) overlap; and

- impact on the CSA's use of BMO Field, which is supposed to be the national soccer stadium?

There are other issues, but that list is enough to be going on with.

I am pretty ambivalent about the Argos in the sense that I am nto a fan of them or the CFL. That said, I would hate to see them or the CFL fold - I think that would be a real loss to the city and to Canada.

However, moving the Argos to BMO Field will harm the CFL as much as it will soccer, both at an individual team and nationwide sport level. SO I remain opposed to the idea and hope that the Argos can find a better home and their own stadium, designed for CFL games.

[Oldtimer]

I'm curious - how do you see BMO Field accommodating both the Argos and TFC?

Specifically, how do you see the following points working out:

- pitch quality after Argos games (Wembley Stadium took 3 weeks and still couldn't get the quality back for England vs Croatia after an NFL game);

- total removal of all CFL lines and markings (not just fade them out);

- stadium livery (do you seriously think that the Argos will agree to leave it all red if they are considered an equal tenant of the stadium?);

- fixture congestion when the seasons (including pre-season) overlap; and

- impact on the CSA's use of BMO Field, which is supposed to be the national soccer stadium?

There are other issues, but that list is enough to be going on with.

I am pretty ambivalent about the Argos in the sense that I am nto a fan of them or the CFL. That said, I would hate to see them or the CFL fold - I think that would be a real loss to the city and to Canada.

However, moving the Argos to BMO Field will harm the CFL as much as it will soccer, both at an individual team and nationwide sport level. SO I remain opposed to the idea and hope that the Argos can find a better home and their own stadium, designed for CFL games.

All your points are valid.

I don't think these issues can be answered (at least without a tonne of cash), so I don't support the Argos at BMO, and neither should their fans.

Could they theoretically be answered? Yes. You can do almost anything with unlimited cash.

However, the real reason why the Argos owners want in is because they are cheap and want to piggyback onto BMO Field.

[Pookie]

Hey Oldtimer, thanks for taking the time to open the dialog.

There are a few other things that I don't think that those on the Argo side of the ball don't seem to be thinking about.

The Argos have lost money. It will cost money to move in.

Specifically, MLSE has laid out over $18M in initial funds to cover the construction and acquire the naming rights. They also spent $5.5M on converting the stadium over. Grimes (City) has stated the Argos will not get a better deal than MLSE got.

MLSE cover any stadium operating loss up to $250,000 per year.

Unless there is a rise in ticket prices, how do they think they can make money under those circumstances? They'd be better off thinking about a new stadium on their own.

Where do fans of the Argos think they'll make up the shortfall?

If they drop over $23M to move in to a smaller venue and draw 8,000 fewer fans per game, they aren't going to make that back without raising ticket prices. It's not like a TV deal can make up that shortfall.

If they expand the stadium, they will have construction costs. Let's not also forget the cost to repair the field and any legal challenges MLSE might lobby against them. That would happen if the field is not repaired to a suitable condition and events are either compromised and/or player injuries are risked.

What are fans willing to pay?

[rocker]

i hear from insiders that THESE GUYS want to move into BMO too!

here's pictures of them measuring the field.................




http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/GEM_0270.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/GEM_0256.jpg

[Redcoe15]

^^ They'd be more welcomed than the Argos.

[TFCRegina]

^^ They'd be more welcomed than the Argos.

At least the birdshit would make it undesirable to tackle people on.

[Auzzy]

Guano is great fertilizer for the real grass! I'm sure the gulls hang out there lots between games when Bitchy is not on duty.

Oh, and we need the squirrels, to clean up the peanuts that Angel & Blanco missed.

[Pookie]

Rocker, they may have a tough time getting in. I would bet that City Council is considering the merits of allowing Monster Truck races mid-week.

After all, they can stand behind the idea that the "proposal... which may or may not happen... would not alter the field and the ambience and should further make BMO Field more financially successful" (Assistant to Deputy Mayor).

Anything is possible I guess.

http://i.pbase.com/u5/01ronin/upload/41010248.DSC_0080.jpg

[Fort York Redcoat]

After all, they can stand behind the idea that the "proposal... which may or may not happen... would not alter the field and the ambience and should further make BMO Field more financially successful" (Assistant to Deputy Mayor).



Yeah I got that too. Totally a template. I'll alter their ambience...

[Hitcho]

I've heard nothing back from the CFL execs or the Argo execs to the e-mails I sent out. Has anyone else?

[Fishnicker]

Anyone catch the end of PTS yesterday - the argos to BMO was briefly mentioned by a caller and McCown said quite emphatically "Not gonna happen. Never in a million years"

Considering he's BFFs with Anslemi, Cynamon and Soko and hates TFC, I take this as a good thing.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I've heard nothing back from the CFL execs or the Argo execs to the e-mails I sent out. Has anyone else?
Same... Hopefully they at least were seen.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I've heard nothing back from the CFL execs or the Argo execs to the e-mails I sent out. Has anyone else?

Not a word, other than an auto-reply saying they were out of the office - I sent my e-mails over the weekend.

[TFCRegina]

Same... Hopefully they at least were seen.

Haven't seen a thing back other than autoreplies.

[Blizzard]

Anyone catch the end of PTS yesterday - the argos to BMO was briefly mentioned by a caller and McCown said quite emphatically "Not gonna happen. Never in a million years"

Considering he's BFFs with Anslemi, Cynamon and Soko and hates TFC, I take this as a good thing.

I didn't hear it but it's a good sign!

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Is it just me or has news about this completely dried up over the past week? I haven't seen anything new in a while.

[ManUtd4ever]

It was a load of BS to begin with...

[rocker]

Is it just me or has news about this completely dried up over the past week? I haven't seen anything new in a while.

there's an Argos story today in the Star that has a couple lines on it...

The league is still assessing the possibility of a move from the Rogers Centre to BMO Field next season, a decision that could affect team ownership. That, in turn, could dictate the future of Argo management as well as head coach Bart Andrus and his staff.


The CFL would only say that a report on the viability of BMO, which cannot hold a regulation field and lacks enough locker room space for football, will be finalized as soon as possible.

[DOMIN8R]

Is it just me or has news about this completely dried up over the past week? I haven't seen anything new in a while.

Can anyone really be surprised?

In public forums and across half a dozen sports blogs there is talk about disgruntled TFC and footie fans contacting the CFL, the Argo ownership, Exhibition Place BoG, City Councillors, Argo sponsors, etc.

If I were in any of the above camps, I would bunker down and claim to be unavailable to.

If no one makes themselves availble for comment - there is nothing to report.

I find it very unsettling.

[ensco]

Something tells me the decision makers are TSN. TSN pays the bills for this league. If TSN think the degree the product is denigrated by shrinking the field is less than the benefit of a radical relaunch with "Argos going back to their roots" as the theme, they will do it.

It makes me sick when I think this through. If I were the CFL/TSN I would want to do it. What have they got to lose? The Argos are dying.

Unless going to BMO is so expensive that you are better off putting up temporary stands at York or something , of course....

1. It's up to MLSE to make the case (including maybe guarantees) on friendlies that they'll lose if the CFL comes. The higher this is, the higher the rent for the Argos has to be to offset lost revenue. I am confident that MLSE can/will do this.

2. Please, please City Council, demand a huge surety bond or escrow payment to pay for all the field damage and conversions.

[kitchener-TFC]

i hear from insiders that THESE GUYS want to move into BMO too!

here's pictures of them measuring the field.................




http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/GEM_0270.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/GEM_0256.jpg
Bitchy would take care of them nicely :hump:

[mlsintoronto]

Is it just me or has news about this completely dried up over the past week? I haven't seen anything new in a while.

I hope it is, I think it is dried up.

everyone hold your breath and cross your fingers and toes....I think they've seen the light. But I don't know for sure.

[Parkdale]

I hope it is, I think it is dried up.

everyone hold your breath and cross your fingers and toes....I think they've seen the light. But I don't know for sure.


fingers crossed.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

there's an Argos story today in the Star that has a couple lines on it...


The league is still assessing the possibility of a move from the Rogers Centre to BMO Field next season, a decision that could affect team ownership. That, in turn, could dictate the future of Argo management as well as head coach Bart Andrus and his staff.

What does the underlined clause mean? How would the move from Skydome "affect team ownership"? Is the reporter just a sloppy writer, or is he/she insinuating that MLSE might acquire a stake in the Argos?

[Oldtimer]

What does the underlined clause mean? How would the move from Skydome "affect team ownership"? Is the reporter just a sloppy writer, or is he/she insinuating that MLSE might acquire a stake in the Argos?

No, its insinuating that another potential owner (probably the guy out west who has rescued so many CFL teams) would be willing to buy the Argos, provided they got out of their lease.

[Hitcho]

I hope it is, I think it is dried up.

everyone hold your breath and cross your fingers and toes....I think they've seen the light. But I don't know for sure.

Let's hope so. Although something tells me that this won't be the last time we have to put up with this.

PB - seeing as it's almost the holidays, can you confirm that if the Argos do move into BMO Field then MSLE will buy the Dome, knock it down and build a better version of Red Bull Park on the site for exclusive use by TFC and the CSA in time for the start of the 2011 season and with the same quality of pitch that's currently going into BMO Field? :hump:

[Pookie]

I hope it is, I think it is dried up.

everyone hold your breath and cross your fingers and toes....I think they've seen the light. But I don't know for sure.

I've got fingers, toes and something else crossed.

Hey Paul, the original agreement is a 20 year deal involving MLSE and the CSA. Are there any "out clauses" in this agreement that could be leveraged in the event that the venue isn't available or in poor condition for your events? Either by you or the CSA?

With 16 years to go on the deal and the success of soccer to-date, is it too early to start exploring the concept of a stadium that MLSE would own outright?

[Gazza_55]

No, its insinuating that another potential owner (probably the guy out west who has rescued so many CFL teams) would be willing to buy the Argos, provided they got out of their lease.

I didn't think the Argos had a lease. I thought the agreement they had to play at Skydome rent-free expired this year and the reason they started floating this 'we want to play at BMO bullshit' was because Skydome was actually going to charge them rent in the next lease.

[Hitcho]

I've got fingers, toes and something else crossed.

Hey Paul, the original agreement is a 20 year deal involving MLSE and the CSA. Are there any "out clauses" in this agreement that could be leveraged in the event that the venue isn't available or in poor condition for your events? Either by you or the CSA?

With 16 years to go on the deal and the success of soccer to-date, is it too early to start exploring the concept of a stadium that MLSE would own outright?

Oh man, I dream of this. If TFC keeps going strong in terms of support growth and tv markets etc, then sooner or later they are going to reach a point where they are profitable enough and important enough to justify this.

I know it won't be in the near term, not with the magic pitch that MLSE is laying down just now, but if it could be before or even at the end of the Exhibition Grounds lease, then that would be a dream. Imagine TFC and its support base inside something like Pink Cow Park at a downtown venue. Makes your spine shiver.

Although - where the hell would they build it? Maybe the Argos have got some ideas... :D

[ensco]

^Where Skydome is, until they knock it down and replace it with this

[Pookie]

^ I would think you'd have to start looking outside of downtown for a couple of reasons.

One is available space.

Two is that the very thought of losing MLSE as a major tenant could be a very important bargaining chip with the City of Toronto. Particularly, if and when the Argos return to ask for their free handout.

I don't think this is feasible at all over the short term but certainly not impossible (I would think) over the longer term. More of an option as the deal expires or if there are significant reasons to exercise an "out" (if it exists).

[Oldtimer]

I didn't think the Argos had a lease. I thought the agreement they had to play at Skydome rent-free expired this year and the reason they started floating this 'we want to play at BMO bullshit' was because Skydome was actually going to charge them rent in the next lease.

If they have to renew, they will have a lease. If it is expensive, they will not be able to sell the team.

[Hitcho]

^ I would think you'd have to start looking outside of downtown for a couple of reasons.

One is available space.

Two is that the very thought of losing MLSE as a major tenant could be a very important bargaining chip with the City of Toronto. Particularly, if and when the Argos return to ask for their free handout.

I don't think this is feasible at all over the short term but certainly not impossible (I would think) over the longer term. More of an option as the deal expires or if there are significant reasons to exercise an "out" (if it exists).

Agreed, and some good points there Pookie.

If TFC continues to sell out then when MLSE comes to renew at Exhibition they will have some serious bargaining power, especially if we've expanded to 25,000+ by that time. The city would stand to lose a huge amount of rent and concession cuts, plus parking income and there would be no easy replacement for them either. So MLSE will hopefully be able to say "we want more control over the venue or we look elsewhere".

Thing is, I love BMO Field - it's our home and it will hold all of the TFC memories since inception. And for a tin bolt place it has a heck of a lot of atmosphere and ambience on game days (largely down to the fans but the venue does play a part).

But still, if the option comes round in 15 years to build the kind of thing the pink cows are getting in a decent and accessible location - woo hoo! I would take that. Imagine being downtown and after a Saturday game being able to head off to whichever bar or restaurant you choose without having to worry about street cars, GO Trains, driving or cabs. :drinking:

[Pookie]

^ I really love it too. That said, do I love it or do I love the experience in it? It would be different if they moved but better? worse? dunno.

The one thing that I don't love is the accessibility. I don't live in the 416 area code so for me, transit isn't an option. We drive and park every game. We don't leave early either so we make our way out every game day with the rest of the 1000's. Throw in a little Gardiner construction (or 427 like last year) and we have a good ride ahead of us.

I'd love to see something built around the hwy 7 or 407 area from a selfish standpoint.

[Blizzard]

I didn't think the Argos had a lease. I thought the agreement they had to play at Skydome rent-free expired this year and the reason they started floating this 'we want to play at BMO bullshit' was because Skydome was actually going to charge them rent in the next lease.

My understanding was that they had a series of three x five year leases. Near the end of each five year period, they could opt in or out although we don't know about the details re pricing and how it might increase from one leasing period to another.

BTW, although we've always talked about their "rent-free" agreement, while this may be in fact be true (although I've heard otherwise), the Argos were still on the hook for conversion from baseball to football and in that place what with all the re-arranging of FT pallettes and the cost of repainting the field, there certainly was some substantial cost involved in their playing at Skydome

[Darlofletch]

Imagine being downtown and after a Saturday game being able to head off to whichever bar or restaurant you choose without having to worry about street cars, GO Trains, driving or cabs. :drinking:

Bmo's already like that, there's plenty of pubs within walking distance in parkdale or liberty village, then there's the go train, buses streetcars right there. It's not great for the subway admittedly, but still, there's a lot of things I'd change about the stadium, and it'd be nice if mlse could just own it outright so we didn't have to worry about the city letting other people play there, but the location really doesn't seem like a problem.

[billyfly]

The hotel being built at the CNE will help. Unless the bar is ultra $$$

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

If they have to renew, they will have a lease. If it is expensive, they will not be able to sell the team.

I thought they are in the midst of a multi-year, low-rent deal at Skydome.

In any event, your explanation makes some sense if the Argos deal at Skydome is about to become worse. I just didn't think that was an issue, but I'm probably wrong.

I've never understood why a profit-seeking venture would get subsidized rent from another profit-seeking venture operating at arms length. And it burns me that both profit-seeking ventures are doing this greasy reacharound at a facility paid for by the public and later sold to private enterprise for 4 cents on the dollar.

[Hitcho]

Bmo's already like that, there's plenty of pubs within walking distance in parkdale or liberty village, then there's the go train, buses streetcars right there. It's not great for the subway admittedly, but still, there's a lot of things I'd change about the stadium, and it'd be nice if mlse could just own it outright so we didn't have to worry about the city letting other people play there, but the location really doesn't seem like a problem.

I'd agree to a point, but the post-game options increase exponentially if they could shift it right downtown (dreamland I know). Exhibition GO is dead handy for me too, but Union is just one more stop so makes no odds to me in that sense.

[Always There]

This thread has taken an odd turn. Talk of a new stadium is strange.

I often find talk of the Sky Dome and it's cost odd. It may have been sold for a quarter of the price, but think of all the events that have happened at the Dome over the past 20 years. Think of all the money coming into Toronto because of that. Often large events are judged on the economic impact they have on the city. The Sky Dome has had countless events that have brought millions into the city, surely enough to cover the expense of building the Dome 20 years ago. Sometimes you need to spend money to make money.

My on topic point is that I have surprisingly not heard back from Mark Cohon. I am quite disappointed that the CFL did not respond to me on this issue.

[ensco]

^The price was not even a quarter of a quarter. Built for $600 million, sold for $25 million. Land value for condos, if you knock it down, would probably be higher than $25 million.

Wouldn't surprise me if, in the not too distant future, the Blue Jays were sold to a non-Toronto buyer and that exact scenario played out.

[Pookie]

This thread has taken an odd turn. Talk of a new stadium is strange.


Why would it be odd to ponder if renting a space at BMO is a good long term strategy for the team? Sometime over the next 16 years, this is a decision they will have to weigh.

All of the fuss is about sharing a stadium and not having final word on who you would share it with. A MLSE owned property would remove that problem. Owning a stadium may end up being more profitable over the long run, as MLSE has determined with the ACC.

[Darlofletch]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/panamgames/article/737999--perkins-cohon-in-the-running-to-head-pan-am-games



The name of CFL commissioner Mark Cohon has surfaced among those searching for the person to run the 2015 Pan Am Games


Don't know if him leaving and being replaced by someone else would be a good thing or not. those of you who know the CFL, is Cohon likely to be an enabler of this BMO plan (in which case, good get him out of there) or a cfl traditionalist who'll never let it happen (in which case hopefully he stays)?

Would the CFL having to go through getting a new commissioner cause enough delays that the Argos would have no choice but to renew at the skydome before the 2010 season?

[chip_butty]

Bmo's already like that, there's plenty of pubs within walking distance in parkdale or liberty village, then there's the go train, buses streetcars right there. It's not great for the subway admittedly

until they build the downtown relief line!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Relief_Line

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

a facility paid for by the public and later sold to private enterprise for 4 cents on the dollar.


It may have been sold for a quarter of the price


^The price was not even a quarter of a quarter. Built for $600 million, sold for $25 million.

25/600 = 0.0417 = 4 cents on the dollar


Sometimes you need to spend money to make money.

Very true. In this case, we spent one dollar to make four pennies, and we repeated this process 600 million times in a row.

It's not that I disagree with public funding for infrastructure. My problem is when that infrastructure is sold at fire-sale prices (like, say, 4 cents on the dollar) and the buyer then has a monopoly on the profits derived from the now-privatized infrastructure.

I bitch about MLSE's sweetheart deal on BMO Field (well, not anymore, but I used to), but by comparison to the Skydome deal, MLSE got screwed.

[menefreghista]

When the SkyDome was first sold in 1994 it was sold for $151 million. So yes, it was sold for 1/4 of what was paid to build it.

It was then sold again in 1999 in bankruptcy court for $80.

It was then sold again in 2004 to Rogers for $25.

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=106352

It should also be noted that the stadium and the hotel are actually separately owned now.

[Always There]

25/600 = 0.0417 = 4 cents on the dollar



Very true. In this case, we spent one dollar to make four pennies, and we repeated this process 600 million times in a row.

It's not that I disagree with public funding for infrastructure. My problem is when that infrastructure is sold at fire-sale prices (like, say, 4 cents on the dollar) and the buyer then has a monopoly on the profits derived from the now-privatized infrastructure.

I bitch about MLSE's sweetheart deal on BMO Field (well, not anymore, but I used to), but by comparison to the Skydome deal, MLSE got screwed.


Your math is all wrong. Where do you get 4 cents on the dollar?

I'm not going to argue about it. People have been complaining about how much the Dome cost for 20 years. There's no need to stretch the numbers or use words such as "monopoly" when they don't really apply.

Like I said, over the past 20 years the Dome has hosted countless events that have brought millions into the city. At this point the Dome is long payed for.

[BakaGaijin]

Your math is all wrong. Where do you get 4 cents on the dollar?

I'm not going to argue about it. People have been complaining about how much the Dome cost for 20 years. There's no need to stretch the numbers or use words such as "monopoly" when they don't really apply.

Like I said, over the past 20 years the Dome has hosted countless events that have brought millions into the city. At this point the Dome is long payed for.

Agreed.

More than 50 million people have been to the Dome to watch the Jays alone!

The Dome has generated more for the local economy than it cost to build Without a doubt.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/toroatte.shtml

[Beach_Red]

With 16 years to go on the deal and the success of soccer to-date, is it too early to start exploring the concept of a stadium that MLSE would own outright?



If they didn't build their own stadium outright for their hockey team, what are the chances they'd do it for their soccer team?

There is zero chance MLSE (or any other company in Canada) will ever invest their own money in a stadium.

[Kaz]

Is the Dome Profitable with the Jays in alone? or would a NFL team in Downsview require a new home for the Jays and the demo of Skydome?

[Carts]

You cant judge the econimic success of a stadium based on a "what it cost to build / what we sold it for"... It just doesn't work that way...

Building a stadium is an investment in the local economy. Every hotel, restaurant, bar, local vendor, hell even a scalper benefits from the stadium being built...

Having a major porfessional sports team benefits so many people. From people employed by the team, to people employed by the stadium, to the people employed to put the game on tv, to the people employed selling t-shirts/beer/hotel rooms around the stadium...

Its not a cut & dry mathematical equation...

Carts...

[Pookie]

If they didn't build their own stadium outright for their hockey team, what are the chances they'd do it for their soccer team?

There is zero chance MLSE (or any other company in Canada) will ever invest their own money in a stadium.

Not sure I follow. There is plenty of chance they'd invest some of their own money in a stadium. They already have invested some of their own in someone else's stadium.

I can't recall a stadium built in Canada with 100% private equity therefore wouldn't see MLSE footing the entire bill.

[ensco]

You cant judge the econimic success of a stadium based on a "what it cost to build / what we sold it for"... It just doesn't work that way...

Building a stadium is an investment in the local economy. Every hotel, restaurant, bar, local vendor, hell even a scalper benefits from the stadium being built...

Having a major porfessional sports team benefits so many people. From people employed by the team, to people employed by the stadium, to the people employed to put the game on tv, to the people employed selling t-shirts/beer/hotel rooms around the stadium...

Its not a cut & dry mathematical equation...

Carts...

There is a lot of evidence that suggests that this hypothesis, used by teams everywhere looking for public money, is just plain wrong. The "spinoff" effects are miniscule in the greater scheme of things in the economy of a city. This is a good book on the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Public-Dollars-Private-Stadiums-Building/dp/0813533430/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260736136&sr=1-6

[Pookie]

^ agreed.

PRO SPORTS STADIUMS DON'T BOLSTER LOCAL ECONOMIES, SCHOLARS SAY
CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — If you build it, they will come … with wallets bulging, eager to exchange greenbacks for peanuts, popcorn, hot dogs and beer, and T-shirts and ball caps with team logos.

At least that’s the theory embraced – time and time again – by mayors and city council members hoping to lure professional sports teams to their cities by promising to build new arenas for the teams. But one guy who’s not buying it is sports economist Brad Humphreys, a professor of recreation, sport and tourism at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

That’s because Humphreys and colleague Dennis Coates, a professor of economics at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, haven’t uncovered a single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.


Read more (http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/04/1117stadiums.html)

[mlsintoronto]

If they didn't build their own stadium outright for their hockey team, what are the chances they'd do it for their soccer team?

There is zero chance MLSE (or any other company in Canada) will ever invest their own money in a stadium.

Is ACC publicly funded? I don't think so.

[Always There]

Is ACC publicly funded? I don't think so.


I've always assumed the ACC was funded by MLSE, because they own it. I know there was no public funding involved.

[billyfly]

^ agreed.

PRO SPORTS STADIUMS DON'T BOLSTER LOCAL ECONOMIES, SCHOLARS SAY
CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — If you build it, they will come … with wallets bulging, eager to exchange greenbacks for peanuts, popcorn, hot dogs and beer, and T-shirts and ball caps with team logos.

At least that’s the theory embraced – time and time again – by mayors and city council members hoping to lure professional sports teams to their cities by promising to build new arenas for the teams. But one guy who’s not buying it is sports economist Brad Humphreys, a professor of recreation, sport and tourism at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

That’s because Humphreys and colleague Dennis Coates, a professor of economics at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, haven’t uncovered a single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.


Read more (http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/04/1117stadiums.html)

What about playoff time? Toronto bars have been very hard hit due to the lack of playoffs for most of Toronto's teams.

[stugautz]

I've always assumed the ACC was funded by MLSE, because they own it. I know there was no public funding involved.

IIRC, weren't the Raptors building the ACC for themself before the Leafs bought the Raptors and the ACC, then adapted the ACC for hockey?

[Huyton]

I find that odd...when there's a work stoppage, like the baseball or hockey strikes (or lockout), don't the local bars and restaurants suffer tremendously?

If the stadia were not there, then neither would the watering holes.

Perhaps the money that I spend on tickets/parking/food/drinks/shirts/etc. at BMO would be spent on other things, but it would NOT be spent in Toronto. Instead it would be used closer to home. The same goes for my two seatmates, and a number of others with whom I have a beer at the north end beer garden before heading home after a game.

Assuming that people in Toronto would still spend their professional sports discretionary income in Toronto if there were no teams to spend it on, then, what's the impact on Torontos economy from the 905ers (and the 75 Mile Bastards) showing up to TFC/Argo/Jays/Leafs and Raptors games?

Does anybody have information on what the split is between out-of-towners and locals in sports attendance for Toronto teams?

[ensco]

mlsintoronto is asking a rhetorical question.

The ACC was 100% private funded, which is a point of pride at MLSE, with justification.

(Although I remember that there was an argument about whether the price paid for the land by John Bitove - the Raptors owner - was market - it was complicated because it was part of a total rezoning of the whole area).

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

People have been complaining about how much the Dome cost for 20 years. There's no need to stretch the numbers or use words such as "monopoly" when they don't really apply.

Like I said, over the past 20 years the Dome has hosted countless events that have brought millions into the city. At this point the Dome is long payed for.


Agreed.

More than 50 million people have been to the Dome to watch the Jays alone!

The Dome has generated more for the local economy than it cost to build Without a doubt.



You cant judge the econimic success of a stadium based on a "what it cost to build / what we sold it for"... It just doesn't work that way...

Building a stadium is an investment in the local economy. Every hotel, restaurant, bar, local vendor, hell even a scalper benefits from the stadium being built...

Having a major porfessional sports team benefits so many people. From people employed by the team, to people employed by the stadium, to the people employed to put the game on tv, to the people employed selling t-shirts/beer/hotel rooms around the stadium...

Its not a cut & dry mathematical equation...

Carts...

Do you people understand the term "capital expenditure" and the distinction between infrastructure and real estate?

I'm not complaining that public money was spent on infrastructure (i.e. capital goods), and those capital goods were then used to attract customers to the area and generate revenue for private individuals.

I take issue when publicly funded infrastructure is sold to private interests, especially when the price paid by those private interests is less than the infrastructure cost to build.


Your math is all wrong. Where do you get 4 cents on the dollar?

The SkyDome was built for $600 million dollars and was sold to Rogers for $25 million. The quotient of 25/600 is 0.04166666. I rounded that to 0.04, which can also be expressed by the phrase "4 cents on the dollar". Please describe how "all wrong" my math is.

[Dirk Diggler]

Do you people understand the term "capital expenditure" and the distinction between infrastructure and real estate?

I'm not complaining that public money was spent on infrastructure (i.e. capital goods), and those capital goods were then used to attract customers to the area and generate revenue for private individuals.

I take issue when publicly funded infrastructure is sold to private interests, especially when the price paid by those private interests is less than the infrastructure cost to build.



The SkyDome was built for $600 million dollars and was sold to Rogers for $25 million. The quotient of 25/600 is 0.04166666. I rounded that to 0.04, which can also be expressed by the phrase "4 cents on the dollar". Please describe how "all wrong" my math is.

Agreed. Factoring inflation, Rogers absolutely stole the building from the public.

[Always There]

Do you people understand the term "capital expenditure" and the distinction between infrastructure and real estate?

I'm not complaining that public money was spent on infrastructure (i.e. capital goods), and those capital goods were then used to attract customers to the area and generate revenue for private individuals.

I take issue when publicly funded infrastructure is sold to private interests, especially when the price paid by those private interests is less than the infrastructure cost to build.



The SkyDome was built for $600 million dollars and was sold to Rogers for $25 million. The quotient of 25/600 is 0.04166666. I rounded that to 0.04, which can also be expressed by the phrase "4 cents on the dollar". Please describe how "all wrong" my math is.

The Sky Dome cost close to 600 million and was sold for 151 million. That's 1/4. That's 25 cents on the dollar. Is that explanation satisfactory?

Truly it didn't cost taxpayers 600 million. A brief wikipedia search will show you that the three major breweries (Labatt, Molson, Carling O'Kefe) each gave 5 million, plus 28 corporations gave 5 million in exchange for a luxury box for 10 years, and exclusivity within the dome (Coke in the dome meant no Pepsi). My math makes that 155 million dollars in private investment.

I'll just say once again that you have to spend money to make money. The dome is a complicated issue. The government was losing money with it somehow, so they sold it. That doesn't change the fact that over it's lifespan it will have had a massive positive ecomomic influence on Toronto.

[Roogsy]

I have to agree with AT.

Does anyone here believe there was a buyer for the stadium at 600mill?

500mill?

300mill?

100mill?

I am quite sure the government would have taken a higher bidder had there been one. But there wasn't. At this point it was indeed a white elephant. You sell at what you can get for it.

If anyone here believes it actually cost the government 600mill, I have some land in North Korea I'd like to sell you.

[Oldtimer]

^ agreed.

PRO SPORTS STADIUMS DON'T BOLSTER LOCAL ECONOMIES, SCHOLARS SAY
CHAMPAIGN, Ill. — If you build it, they will come … with wallets bulging, eager to exchange greenbacks for peanuts, popcorn, hot dogs and beer, and T-shirts and ball caps with team logos.

At least that’s the theory embraced – time and time again – by mayors and city council members hoping to lure professional sports teams to their cities by promising to build new arenas for the teams. But one guy who’s not buying it is sports economist Brad Humphreys, a professor of recreation, sport and tourism at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

That’s because Humphreys and colleague Dennis Coates, a professor of economics at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, haven’t uncovered a single instance in which the presence of a professional sports team has been linked to a boost in the local economy.


(http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/04/1117stadiums.html)
Read more (http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/04/1117stadiums.html)


That article is a bit scewed.
First, it's counting places like DC for it's study, which is vastly different from Toronto.

Secondly, it's missing a lot of secondary benefits:

(1) Players generally spend in the local economy, so yes, you can count their salaries in the mix.

(2) If you count 905ers spending in Toronto, there is a boost for the city. Yes, there are not that many coming from outside the GTA, so the GTA as a whole might not benefit much. However, within the GTA, Toronto has a net inflow of cash.

(3) The U-20's, for which the stadium was built, did bring in massive one-time economic benefits. So if you only counted TFC, the GTA as a whole didn't benefit (although the City of Toronto did). However, this stadium was built for more than TFC, and will continue to bring in net benefits to the region when CMNT games are played at BMO Field.

[menefreghista]

The SkyDome was built for $600 million dollars and was sold to Rogers for $25 million. The quotient of 25/600 is 0.04166666. I rounded that to 0.04, which can also be expressed by the phrase "4 cents on the dollar". Please describe how "all wrong" my math is.

Your math is wrong because you keep brushing off the fact that when the public sold the building the sale was for $151 million.

Rogers didn't buy the building from the taxpayers.

[Pookie]

oldtimer,

I think the gist of the argument is that if the increase in spending isn't "new spending" then you aren't necessarily generating a net increase for the city.

If 905ers didn't go see the Jays but instead would attend plays, zoos, museums, concerts, restaurants, etc, then the spending generated by the Jays is not new spending.

If I've only got $100 to spend but intend to spend it on a family outing, I might choose the Jays or I might choose something else. The $100 gets spent regardless.

It's sort of like the City suggesting moving the Argos to BMO will be good for the economy. Those games are already being played down the street and fans are already spending money. They will shift it to businesses around the Ex but it won't be a net increase.

I do think new events like the U20 one you mentioned have a positive impact. Enough to offset significant public funding? I'm not sure.

As far as player spending within the city goes, that's a bit of a red herring. Players are on the road for half of the season and generally don't live here during the offseason. The big things they buy in the city such as condos would be purchased by someone else. The property taxes they pay would be paid by someone else. The table they take for dinner would be filled by someone else.

We usually don't even get a shot at taxing them. Their income taxes are paid in the state where they have a principal residence, meaning they generally pay no Ontario or Federal tax.

[Always There]

oldtimer,

I think the gist of the argument is that if the increase in spending isn't "new spending" then you aren't necessarily generating a net increase for the city.

If 905ers didn't go see the Jays but instead would attend plays, zoos, museums, concerts, restaurants, etc, then the spending generated by the Jays is not new spending.

If I've only got $100 to spend but intend to spend it on a family outing, I might choose the Jays or I might choose something else. The $100 gets spent regardless.

It's sort of like the City suggesting moving the Argos to BMO will be good for the economy. Those games are already being played down the street and fans are already spending money. They will shift it to businesses around the Ex but it won't be a net increase.

I do think new events like the U20 one you mentioned have a positive impact. Enough to offset significant public funding? I'm not sure.

As far as player spending within the city goes, that's a bit of a red herring. Players are on the road for half of the season and generally don't live here during the offseason. The big things they buy in the city such as condos would be purchased by someone else. The property taxes they pay would be paid by someone else. The table they take for dinner would be filled by someone else.

We usually don't even get a shot at taxing them. Their income taxes are paid in the state where they have a principal residence, meaning they generally pay no Ontario or Federal tax.


All of this is seemingly without any basis in fact. I understand that this is a forum for discussion, but this argument seems on par with the scientists who argue against global warming.

This is all old news anyway. The dome is here. My original point was people have been complaining about it for 20 years, meanwhile just about everyone has been there and enjoyed it on multiple occasions. It's here and isn't going anywhere.

[Beach_Red]

oldtimer,

I think the gist of the argument is that if the increase in spending isn't "new spending" then you aren't necessarily generating a net increase for the city.



The argument made in the book is that in order to support a pro sports team the economy has to be big enough that the team doesn't make a significant impact. It's not really worth the investment to the city.

[Always There]

The argument made in the book is that in order to support a pro sports team the economy has to be big enough that the team doesn't make a significant impact. It's not really worth the investment to the city.

Do you not think that Hamilton getting an NHL team would be a massive financial benefit to the city? I do. I think it would change the city dramatically.

I'm just asking you if you support the books theory.

[Beach_Red]

Do you not think that Hamilton getting an NHL team would be a massive financial benefit to the city? I do. I think it would change the city dramatically.

All we can say is maybe. The guys who wrote the book did a lot of research. Not that we should just take their word for it, but it's might be worth looking at.

Right now some people feel that Hamilton could support an NHL team - some of the money going to a Hamilton might come out of Toronto and Buffalo so it would be "new" money in Hamilton, but it's not like people will be dipping into savings they wouldn't otherwise be spending in the local economy.

Of course, Hamilton's economy may be small enough that 40 hockey games and some merchandise would affect the overall economy significantly. They didn't say in the book that pro sports teams had no effect at all, just that in order to support a team the economy needed to be so big that the team didn't have a significant effect - and certainly nowhere near as much as the businessmen lobbying the government for money claimed.

[Beach_Red]

Do you not think that Hamilton getting an NHL team would be a massive financial benefit to the city? I do. I think it would change the city dramatically.

I'm just asking you if you support the books theory.

It was quite a few years ago that I read the book, but yes, I support the theory.

Still, I would like to see an NHL team in Hamilton. I don't think it would have a significant effect on the economy, but it would be good for the city in other ways.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

I have to agree with AT.

Does anyone here believe there was a buyer for the stadium at 600mill?

500mill?

300mill?

100mill?

I am quite sure the government would have taken a higher bidder had there been one. But there wasn't. At this point it was indeed a white elephant. You sell at what you can get for it.

If anyone here believes it actually cost the government 600mill, I have some land in North Korea I'd like to sell you.

When you factor in financing costs, the SkyDome clearly cost the government much more than $600mm, and never mind land in NK (whatever that means).

The purpose of government-funded infrastructure is, indeed, to better the lives of the people who are served by that infrastructure, which includes creating business opportunities. The costs of the infrastructure are typically recouped by a combination of fees for use (i.e. rent, tolls, licences) and increased property taxes from land that is serviced by the infrastrcuture. This is the concept of "spending money to make money" (also known as "investing") that applies to infrastructure.

What does not make sense is selling the infrastructure to a private party in a way that does not allow the government to be repaid for its investment, but does allow the new private owner of the infrastructure to make a profit from that ownership. That is called either "stupidity" or "crony capitalism", depending on the view you take of the motivation of the government that conducts such a transaction.

[Roogsy]

"Cost" is relative. Does "cost" include the taxes recovered from the revenue generated by creating the structure?

Does it include the taxes recovered by the workers, contractors, companies employed and paid for their work on the structure?

Does it include the stimulus it generated for the local economy?

There is a reason these infrastructure programs are never measured by what the ultimate dollar figure is but by their result.

The plain fact of the matter is that your "crony capitalism" argument only works if there was any way shape or form that someone else would have stepped up and paid even $1 more than what Rogers did. If there was no other buyer...then Rogers paid market value, since the transaction sets "the market". Are you saying the stadium is worth more? If so, proof is needed.

The "$600 million" figure may be deceiving, since most observers believe that the governments paid far more than it should have for building it. In that case, it is not Rogers who is at fault for paying "fair market value" but the government for mismanaging the project (shocking I know).

The truth is that Rogers had leverage...they own the main source of revenue for the stadium, the Blue Jays, which without them the government stood to own a black hole of expenses and both parties knew it. Complaining about what the government sold the stadium for is like complaining about the stadium in Detroit that cost tens of millions to build and wound up being sold to a private Canadian source for $500,000. There is a reason these things happen over and over again, Stadiums are never meant to be built to recoup the "cost" of building them and all parties are usually aware that with the passing of time, the value of the stadiums plummet. Why we don't all already know this is unclear to me, we see it all the time.

I have no problems with the Skydome transaction. I have a REAL problem with what the Provincial government did concerning the 407. That is a real disgrace and where we should really be upset with the government.

[menefreghista]

"The plain fact of the matter is that your "crony capitalism" argument only works if there was any way shape or form that someone else would have stepped up and paid even $1 more than what Rogers did. If there was no other buyer...then Rogers paid market value, since the transaction sets "the market". Are you saying the stadium is worth more? If so, proof is needed.


Rogers shouldn't even be mentioned if you are talking about crony capitalism. Rogers bought the SkyDome from another private company. When Rogers bought the 'Dome it was the third time the building was sold. Twice removed from when the taxpayers sold it.

[Roogsy]

Rogers shouldn't even be mentioned if you are talking about crony capitalism. Rogers bought the SkyDome from another private company. When Rogers bought the 'Dome it was the third time the building was sold. Twice removed from when the taxpayers sold it.

Shoot...even moreso then.

Companies make risk/reward analysis and projections and obviously someone said "lets get the hell out of dodge" with regards to the Skydome. I would say the argument is done, the last price Rogers paid is "fair market value".

[Hitcho]

Oh man, this thread has died a long and boring death.

Someone please put it out of its misery...

(Although RPB uber-beings please start up a new thread if/when you have something substantive to tell us)

[TFC07]

When is CFL planning to finish their "report"?

[mlsintoronto]

I don't think this thread, or the campaign, should die until you have clarity. but thats just me.

[ArmenJBX]

So, for a guy that hasn't followed the story and doesn't want to read 33 pages...

What's the status?

[Roogsy]

We are waiting to see whether this is a serious threat...and if so, what kind of action we will be taking.

I think the defacto agreement here is to see what the CFL decides to say about any possibility of the Argos moving to BMO Field. If the CFL decides that it's a no-go, it pretty much kills the idea. If the CFL leaves the door open...we take the talking and the planning to the next level.

[Always There]

Apparently the rest of the CFL owners don't want the Argos in BMO.

I would like to agree that the 407 is the real crime against the citizens of Ontario.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-unlikely-to-play-at-bmo-field/article1401891/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheGlobeAndMail-Front+%28The+Globe+and+Mail+-+Latest+News%29&utm_content=Google+International

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Things look good, that being said, it aint over

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I don't think this thread, or the campaign, should die until you have clarity. but thats just me.

I think Hitcho's post was in reference to this thread getting off topic. The recent discussion of the economic aspects of stadium construction has strayed somewhat from the thread title.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

More Hurrahs
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/cfl/argos/article/739356--cfl-report-says-bmo-field-not-suitable-home-for-argos

[SteeltownBhoy]

Toronto – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club has issued the following statement following receipt of the CFL’s Feasibility Study on BMO Field:

“We would like to thank the Board of Governors of the Canadian Football League for authorizing a feasibility study on the potential of BMO Field as a home for the Toronto Argonauts. We accept the study’s main finding that while BMO Field is a fine facility, our unique brand of Canadian football could not be played there in its current state. In particular, extensive field measurements performed by a surveyor have indicated BMO field cannot adequately accommodate our game.

Our focus is now squarely on providing great game day entertainment in 2010 for our fans at Rogers Centre, a place we have been proud to call home for two decades. It is a first-class facility with state of the art media facilities, locker room facilities and technology. Our season ticket holders remain happy with Rogers Centre and its accessibility to the downtown core, as well as its indoor option in inclement weather. Rogers Centre is able to house our existing fan base and provides opportunity for future growth.

Our ownership now plans to reflect on its future over the holiday season and does not anticipate any further announcements until the New Year.”

[denime]

Toronto – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club has issued the following statement following receipt of the CFL’s Feasibility Study on BMO Field:

“We would like to thank the Board of Governors of the Canadian Football League for authorizing a feasibility study on the potential of BMO Field as a home for the Toronto Argonauts. We accept the study’s main finding that while BMO Field is a fine facility, our unique brand of Canadian football could not be played there in its current state. In particular, extensive field measurements performed by a surveyor have indicated BMO field cannot adequately accommodate our game.:hand:

Our focus is now squarely on providing great game day entertainment in 2010 for our fans at Rogers Centre, a place we have been proud to call home for two decades. It is a first-class facility with state of the art media facilities, locker room facilities and technology. Our season ticket holders remain happy with Rogers Centre and its accessibility to the downtown core, as well as its indoor option in inclement weather. Rogers Centre is able to house our existing fan base and provides opportunity for future growth.:hurray:

Our ownership now plans to reflect on its future over the holiday season and does not anticipate any further announcements until the New Year.”

When you post news like this don't forget the LINK.

[billyfly]

Toronto – The Toronto Argonauts Football Club has issued the following statement following receipt of the CFL’s Feasibility Study on BMO Field:

“We would like to thank the Board of Governors of the Canadian Football League for authorizing a feasibility study on the potential of BMO Field as a home for the Toronto Argonauts. We accept the study’s main finding that while BMO Field is a fine facility, our unique brand of Canadian football could not be played there in its current state. In particular, extensive field measurements performed by a surveyor have indicated BMO field cannot adequately accommodate our game.

Our focus is now squarely on providing great game day entertainment in 2010 for our fans at Rogers Centre, a place we have been proud to call home for two decades. It is a first-class facility with state of the art media facilities, locker room facilities and technology. Our season ticket holders remain happy with Rogers Centre and its accessibility to the downtown core, as well as its indoor option in inclement weather. Rogers Centre is able to house our existing fan base and provides opportunity for future growth.

Our ownership now plans to reflect on its future over the holiday season and does not anticipate any further announcements until the New Year.”

DIG IT.

[SteeltownBhoy]

Denime

I apologize!!!

I was just so excited about the news!!

[crozack]

This was just a ploy by the Argos to get concessions at the Rogers Centre.....i doubt they truly wanted to go to BMO.

[billyfly]

Post this letter in the other thread as well Steeltownbhoy.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=19108

[SteeltownBhoy]

http://www.argonauts.ca/article/statement-regarding-cfl-feasibility-study-on-bmo-field

[Derko]

Advice: Close this thread, let it re-appear next off season!!!

[Oldtimer]

Agreed, time to close this thread.

[Roogsy]

The announcement was made today. We will close this thread and any discussion regarding the Argos and BMO Field will continue there.

I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief...for now.