~ BMO Field: Should argos move in? Superthread~

[DowntownTO]

I sent an email... I'm sure 20,000 more emails will be outgoing shortly.

[VPjr]

^ great post andyc

Those of you who are Toronto rate payers must do this.

[Roogsy]

Mississauga should get in the act and offer MLSE land to build their own stadium. I am tired of this crap.

[andyc]

Here are the email addresses in one bunch to make cut and paste real easy...

mayor_miller@toronto.ca (mayor_miller@toronto.ca); councillor_walker@toronto.ca (councillor_walker@toronto.ca); councillor_stintz@toronto.ca (councillor_stintz@toronto.ca); councillor_davis@toronto.ca (councillor_davis@toronto.ca); councillor_parker@toronto.ca (councillor_parker@toronto.ca); councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca (councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca); councillor_ashton@toronto.ca (councillor_ashton@toronto.ca); councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca (councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca); councillor_bussin@toronto.ca (councillor_bussin@toronto.ca); councillor_carroll@toronto.ca (councillor_carroll@toronto.ca); councillor_cho@toronto.ca (councillor_cho@toronto.ca); councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca (councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca); councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca (councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca); councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca (councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca); councillor_feldman@toronto.ca (councillor_feldman@toronto.ca); councillor_filion@toronto.ca (councillor_filion@toronto.ca); councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca (councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca); councillor_ford@toronto.ca (councillor_ford@toronto.ca); councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca (councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca); councillor_grimes@toronto.ca (councillor_grimes@toronto.ca); councillor_hall@toronto.ca (councillor_hall@toronto.ca); councillor_heaps@toronto.ca (councillor_heaps@toronto.ca); councillor_holyday@toronto.ca (councillor_holyday@toronto.ca); councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca (councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca); councillor_kelly@toronto.ca (councillor_kelly@toronto.ca); councillor_lee@toronto.ca (councillor_lee@toronto.ca); councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca (councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca); councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca (councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca); councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca (councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca); councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca (councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca); councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca (councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca); councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca (councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca); councillor_moeser@toronto.ca (councillor_moeser@toronto.ca); councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca (councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca); councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca (councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca); councillor_ootes@toronto.ca (councillor_ootes@toronto.ca); councillor_palacio@toronto.ca (councillor_palacio@toronto.ca); councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca (councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca); councillor_perks@toronto.ca (councillor_perks@toronto.ca); councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca (councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca); councillor_rae@toronto.ca (councillor_rae@toronto.ca); councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca (councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca); councillor_shiner@toronto.ca (councillor_shiner@toronto.ca); councillor_thompson@toronto.ca (councillor_thompson@toronto.ca); councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca (councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca)

[DowntownTO]

A new message was posted in the thread "Toronto city councillor backs Argos at BMO":

http://communities.sportsnet.ca/message/101125#101125

Author : PhillyCanuck
Profile : http://communities.sportsnet.ca/people/PhillyCanuck

Message:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I am sick of the "footy" fans talking about this as THEIR stadium...it is NOT TFC's stadium, it is MY stadium, and they play there. My friggin' taxes built it, and I sure as hell saw no reason to put another MLSE money grab in it, but as the idiots on TO city council saw fit, they handed it over. I would prefer to see the Argos there, seeing as it is a stadium for Toronto, and the CFL will outlast MLS by years and years...why wait to make it the Argos stadium...do it now.


YOU SIR, ARE AN IDIOT.

[Wagner]

Even Bob McClown says it's just a negotiation ploy...

[Cashcleaner]

^ The thing is, the taxpayers DID pay for most of the stadium, so the issue is more complicated than: "This is our home, find your own."

[Shakes McQueen]

Jeff Blair said on Prime Time Sports tonight that he thinks it's just a smokescreen.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - would the CFL allow them to play on a reduced size field? This wouldn't be a case of accommodating a team with no other viable stadium options, because the Argos have the Dome, which conforms with regulations.

- Scott

[rocker]

^ The thing is, the taxpayers DID pay for most of the stadium, so the issue is more complicated than: "This is our home, find your own."

taxpayers paid for skydome too. it's in perfectly good shape.

taxpayers spent hundreds of millions for skydome and apparently it's not good enough for the argos?

i'm still waiting for the opera house downtown, paid for with tax money, to allow my favourite rock bands to play in their house.

the argos are a private business, after all.. at least the CSA is a public group using the National Soccer Stadium.

[Wagner]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/2009/11/27/toronto_councillor_argos_bmo/

Grimes is an idiot...
how could he allow a stadium that he thought could one day host the argos be so small.

the FAN590 roundtable was saying that they need atleast 160 yards....and WAY more sideline space....

45 more yards in length minimum.
and
something like 20 more in width....
think about that...it just doesn't make sense.
20 million to fuck the stadium up???

not going to happen.

[Wagner]

also, the grey cup is likely coming back in 3 years for the 100th anniversary....and it sold out the Skydome 2 years ago.
and upper bowl tix were like $100....

what are they going to do? burn their bridges with the Skydome? and then come crawling back for the Grey Cup??

[Bars92]

The owners of the wee blues don't have $15 to put into this project.

[Wagner]

Dear Argotwat Ownership,

Just because the best sports atmosphere in Canada happens at BMO, doesn't mean it will happen for the Argos.

Don't think that you can copy the TFC magic.

[Rudi]

^ The thing is, the taxpayers DID pay for most of the stadium, so the issue is more complicated than: "This is our home, find your own."
MLSE put $18 million into the stadium project.

How much did the Argos put in?

[Cashcleaner]

taxpayers paid for skydome too. it's in perfectly good shape.

taxpayers spent hundreds of millions for skydome and apparently it's not good enough for the argos?


Not only that, let's remember that it was the Argos that first approached the city to get the Skydome built. The Jays got onboard later down the line.


I'm still waiting for the opera house downtown, paid for with tax money, to allow my favourite rock bands to play in their house.

But then the Opera House crowd would tell you that their venue is Opera-specific.


the argos are a private business, after all.. at least the CSA is a public group using the National Soccer Stadium.

Yep. I'm glad you mentioned it, because they have just much to lose as well as TFC.

[Always There]

This is further along than we would like...

I know there are some that can back me up on here... (http://www.24thminute.com/2009/11/football-specific-stadium-argos-to-bmo.html)

What a surprise, a writer with his own agenda. Why can't you give your opinion without linking to your own blog?

What proof have you offered other than saying that the Argos have sent a "well crafted" letter? You also offer seemingly groundless speculation as to how long in between games it will take, claiming that it will create havoc with the MLS schedule.

I'm not for the Argos in BMO, I just dislike fear mongering for self interest.

[Cashcleaner]

MLSE put $18 million into the stadium project.

How much did the Argos put in?

Not a bad point to raise.

[nascarguy]

this is the one thing that could hurt tfc supporter turn out I know it will make me think this offseason but if this is just all talk mlse better shup this down fast.

I'm from hamilton so I all ways hated the argos at the tiger cats field they have argos logo in the washroom that you can piss on I think we need crew logo at bmo field

[jloome]

The city's revenue sharing agreement with MLSE is far more lucrative than a lease deal with another team would be. MLSE has to be serious about imparting on council how significant a blow this would be to its business model, as they'd lose hardcore fans in droves with football lines on the pitch.

That's not serious soccer and no one will take it as such. The entire TFC "buy in" that has created this fan-based atmosphere in MLS is predicated on being able to take a version of the pro sport here seriously for the first time.

[Blizzard]

Guys, this is a VERY SERIOUS Threat.

I've just received a call from a top CSA official that has told me in no uncertain terms that the Argos are VERY serious about wanting into BMO Field and that the City of Toronto is very willing to let it happen, as long as the CFL will allow the Argos to play on a smaller field.

This would be a massive setback for the sport of soccer in Toronto. MASSIVE.

Those of you how are city of Toronto taxpayers....I urge you to make your voice heard. Use whatever means you have to communicate that you don't want this to happen.

All TFC Season Ticket holders ought to also petition TFC front office and MLSE head office with the demand that they actively try to purchase the sad sack Argos simply to keep them out of BMO Field. It is the only way I can see that they can keep them out of BMO.

I, for one, would drop my TFC season tickets instantly if I ever went to a game at BMO and saw gridiron lines on the pitch. Have you ever seen how chewed up Robertson Stadium looks in September and October once they start playing american football on that field. It would be a huge shame to let that happen to BMO's soon to be installed grass field.

Beyond our discomfort and anger, the rest of the CFL would be livid if the Argonauts were to attempt to compromise the integrity of a Canadian institution play playing a 150 yard sport on a 117 yard field.

OK, they played on some shorter fields in the USA but this is Canada and the CFL is a Canadian game and why destroy that?!?!

In terms of our problems, thanks for mentioning Robertson Stadium. It would be insane to allow this to happen to a brand spanking new top of the line field.

I also have doubts that lines can be as easily washed off a grass field as they are off an artificial pitch.

I agree Dino. This is truly MASSIVE.

.... and hey, I like that idea. MLSE, buy the Argos and keep them in the Skydome!!!

B

[rocker]

But then the Opera House crowd would tell you that their venue is Opera-specific.

And I would respect that, until I'm told my soccer specific stadium can't have just soccer in it :)

If multi-use is the mantra for taxpayer money in all cases, then I want the Led zeppelin reunion + Metallica at the new opera house downtown.
I want baseball diamonds used for doggie parks so doggies have exercise and a place to crap right before the ballgame too.. Multi-use, after all.

The multi-use "taxpayer" mantra is stupid when extended too far. Now it's being employed to bring a private business (Argos) into a stadium that's already highly successful.

BMO Field has already given back to taxpayers more than expected financially (TFC alone blew the financial projections out of the water).

Since the Argos can still play at Skydome, there's no reason they have to move to BMO. They don't need to be "saved" or something. So i just don't see the rationale.

[Rudi]

What a surprise, a writer with his own agenda. Why can't you give your opinion without linking to your own blog?

What proof have you offered other than saying that the Argos have sent a "well crafted" letter? You also offer seemingly groundless speculation as to how long in between games it will take, claiming that it will create havoc with the MLS schedule.

I'm not for the Argos in BMO, I just dislike fear mongering for self interest.
Firstly, shut the fuck up. Your constant whining is so fucking annoying, and your contrarian persona is played out. Why the new stage name?

Secondly, his information is rock solid.

[Cashcleaner]

And I would respect that, until I'm told my soccer specific stadium can't have just soccer in it :)

If multi-use is the mantra for taxpayer money in all cases, then I want the Led zeppelin reunion + Metallica at the new opera house downtown.
I want baseball diamonds used for doggie parks so doggies have a place to crap right before the ballgame too.. Multi-use, after all.

That last one may lead to "logistical" problems. :D

[4evared]

Just when things seemed to be going right for TFC and their supporters, grass, new players towards the end of the season, new coach and still a great fanbase, we have to have our bubble burst with talk of the Argos moving to BMO Field and making a mockery of our game. I for one, will not stand for any sharing of BMO Field. It was bad enough being at BMO this past season, watching the TFC with the faded lines from the lacrosse field. What ever happened to the MLS mandating the need for Soccer Specific Stadiums from now on. We have one and should not let this change. Let us hope that this is just a ploy by the Argos owners in their negotiations with Rogers.

[rocker]

I also think Argo fans need to hear about this. because I'm not sure they would like it either. At the Supporters Summit the Revolution fans complained about how Gillette stadium is full of Patriot signs and no indication of the Revs. Well, when Argo fans come into BMO they better enjoy seeing all the TFC signs, RED SEATS, Jim Brennan posters... hahaha. They'll feel like the tenants they are.

[nascarguy]

I received an email today from the GTHL (my kids play hockey as well as football) and they are actively fighting a potential change in ice time allocations by the city. Anyways the reason I'm posting is the method they are using to get parents to reach out to the city to register protest.

Below is a copy of the suggested approach. This could be easily reworded and distributed widely...

In light of the very short time frame and to make it as easy as possible for you to email your City Councillor, you need only take 6 quick steps:

1. Open your email browser and initiate a new email.
2. Paste the list of email addresses of council members and the Mayor (let them all know how you feel) into the CC section of your forwarded email

3. Put your councillor's email address in the TO line of the email, or if you do not know their name or email, click on this link to access your Councillor's name and email and put this in the "TO ; line

4. Insert your message to City Council and ADD your name and address (A Draft to use as the basic text for your email subject to your own edits is below)

5. HIT SEND

Not a bad approach... Included in the email was a list of all the councilors emails addresses and suggested wording of the email. I couldn't post the list of email addresses as I hit a number of character limit in the post. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll post it.

I'm going to let the poeple who live in the toronto area send this letter out. If I do not buy tfc season tickets it save me alot money

[Always There]

I feel like people are losing their shit for no reason. These guys very recently weren't sure they wanted to own the team. It's all just a bunch of posturing. They say stuff all the time regardless of fact.

People can say MLSE don't have a say, but they recently invested 3.5 million for a new field. They have a say. I doubt they'd be too happy to improve BMO so that the Argos can reap the rewards. They most definately can and will speak out against this.

Why would the CFL be okay with this? This is the biggest sticking point. They may have done it 15 years ago when the league was in full experimental mode, but the experiment was a failure. You don't repeat mistakes. The Argos are too important to the CFL to play in a stadium that is way smaller than regulation.

All in all, we've been down this road before. I'm glad that this is happening in the off season so that it doesn't interfere with the enjoyment of BMO field like it has in the past.

Don't believe the hype.

[king dave]

Looks like we are back at the emailing campaign my friends.
I am gonna carefully compose a letter of concern and start very soon.
MLS would definately be a major ally here and the whole SSS issue might be the deciding factor.
A soccer specific stadium surely would not continue to be so if 'other' professional sports teams became tennants.
Maybe this would be the spark to ignite the 'let's build our own stadium' fire?
KD.

[Always There]

Firstly, shut the fuck up. Your constant whining is so fucking annoying, and your contrarian persona is played out. Why the new stage name?

Secondly, his information is rock solid.


Firstly, huh?

Second, huh?

Third, what info?

Fourth, chill out angry guy.

[Wagner]

http://www.untwistedvortex.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/dontfeedthetroll.jpg

[nascarguy]

I think Pointyball is an accepted term for the game that the NFL and CFL play.
hell even TSN calls it pointyball

[rocker]

I feel like people are losing their shit for no reason.

Well when the business manager of TFC posts that fans should organize against this, I would probably be more concerned than you.

But if you've got your ear to the ground and have talked to the people involved, then maybe you can relax.

[Cashcleaner]

I feel like people are losing their shit for no reason. These guys very recently weren't sure they wanted to own the team. It's all just a bunch of posturing. They say stuff all the time regardless of fact.

People can say MLSE don't have a say, but they recently invested 3.5 million for a new field. They have a say. I doubt they'd be too happy to improve BMO so that the Argos can reap the rewards. They most definately can and will speak out against this.

Why would the CFL be okay with this? This is the biggest sticking point. They may have done it 15 years ago when the league was in full experimental mode, but the experiment was a failure. You don't repeat mistakes. The Argos are too important to the CFL to play in a stadium that is way smaller than regulation.

All in all, we've been down this road before. I'm glad that this is happening in the off season so that it doesn't interfere with the enjoyment of BMO field like it has in the past.

Don't believe the hype.

The problem is that if the people opposed to such an action don't speak out now about it, by the time we do organize things it might be too late. Even when you look at it from all sides, the Argos at BMO Field just doesn't work.

I agree with what you're saying, though. Nobody can really see any good reason why the Argos would move to a stadium where they can't fit more than 2/3rds of their current average crowds in or even play with standard field dimensions. Can't get into details, but myself and others are thinking this is part of a an even bigger plan.

[rocker]

Hey Pinball... what happened to that stadium you were gonna build up at York???? ;)
You even got so far as to feel up president marsden at the press conference!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/marsden.jpg

[nascarguy]

Looks like we are back at the emailing campaign my friends.
I am gonna carefully compose a letter of concern and start very soon.
MLS would definately be a major ally here and the whole SSS issue might be the deciding factor.
A soccer specific stadium surely would not continue to be so if 'other' professional sports teams became tennants.
Maybe this would be the spark to ignite the 'let's build our own stadium' fire?
KD.
yeah mlse has the money to do it and if the city and cfl wants bmo field I say let them but it's going to cost them

[Boris]

again guys, there are sme very valid reasons to start an email campaign. We are still digging up some info before we make a formal post. For those of you who want do what vpjr suggested.
Its very important to keep your cool. We want to be taken serious so starting an all out war is useless. We need to be smart about how we play this. We've learned in the past that taking the rebellious road leas to you taken as a joke. Currently, an email campaign seems the best option. Again, we'll keep you posted

Also, do not let this thread degenerate.....

[Always There]

The problem is that if the people opposed to such an action don't speak out now about it, by the time we do organize things it might be too late. Even when you look at it from all sides, the Argos at BMO Field just doesn't work.

I agree with what you're saying, though. Nobody can really see any real reason why the Argos would move to a stadium where they can't fit more than 2/3rds of their current average crowds in or even play with standard field dimensions. Can't get into details, but myself and others are thinking this is part of a an even bigger plan.


I'm just saying that something starts as a rumor and before you know it the sky is falling.

When you look at it sensibly, there is a long, long way to go before this could happen.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I like the Argos, but nowhere near BMO, please.


I went to two games this year at Skydome and there seemed to be quite a few people there, and if their attendance IS going down, well, maybe winning more games than I can count on one hand in a year would help.

[Always There]

Well when the business manager of TFC posts that fans should organize against this, I would probably be more concerned than you.

But if you've got your ear to the ground and have talked to the people involved, then maybe you can relax.

Where is this post? I missed it and would like to read it.

You don't need an ear to the ground. You need common sense to relax.

[Boris]

Where is this post? I missed it.

You don't need an ear to the ground. You need common sense.

he said if it happens...

[Super]

Maybe I'm underestimating the real possibility of the Argos moving to BMO, but I have a strong feeling that we'll be talking about this again same time next year ... and the next year ... and the next year.

[wzhxvy]

Firstly, huh?

Second, huh?

Third, what info?

Fourth, chill out angry guy.

He is defending his supporter group buddy (who was highly critical of RPB actions/decisions earlier this year but still posts his articles here because this is the place to be and cant help himself). Regardless, mods, people have a right to their opinion. And language like Rudi's is not allowed by forum rules.

[Kevvv]

I think his point is that if Paul Beirne is expressing concern, then our concern is warranted.

[Rudi]

He is defending his supporter group buddy (who was highly critical of RPB actions/decisions earlier this year but still posts his articles here because this is the place to be and cant help himself). Regardless, mods, people have a right to their opinion. And language like Rudi's is not allowed by forum rules.
I've got some language for you:

Blow me.

SOG's post is on the mark. Just because you can;t see past the fact that he calls himself U-Sector does not invalidate what he is saying.

[Boris]

Maybe I'm underestimating the real possibility of the Argos moving to BMO, but I have a strong feeling that we'll be talking about this again same time next year ... and the next year ... and the next year.

exactly...which is why we need to be smart and not go all nuts about it.

[wzhxvy]

I've got some language for you.

Blow me.

I dont like midgets

[Always There]

he said if it happens...

If? Well, yeah. If many things change then I might feel differently.

:picard:

[Boris]

If? Well, yeah. If many things change then I might feel differently.

:picard:

again...we have people who have worked all day on this.

[LucaGol]

I'm just saying that something starts as a rumor and before you know it the sky is falling.

When you look at it sensibly, there is a long, long way to go before this could happen.

I bet you think you're pretty clever.

Faking an about face to sway action ... tsk tsk ...

[Boris]

I dont like midgets

dude...chill

[wzhxvy]

I've got some language for you:

Blow me.

SOG's post is on the mark. Just because you can;t see past the fact that he calls himself U-Sector does not invalidate what he is saying.


Nice edit on your post. Maybe you should rethink who is being rationale here.

I dont care which group he comes from. I care about his actions, and I dont agree with them which dilute his work in my eyes.

[Always There]

I've got some language for you:

Blow me.

SOG's post is on the mark. Just because you can;t see past the fact that he calls himself U-Sector does not invalidate what he is saying.

What did he say though? He said they sent a well crafted letter. So what?

[nascarguy]

I dont like midgets
your going to get yourseft banned

[Kevvv]

http://www.mlsnet.com//news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20091127&content_id=7723190&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280

[Cashcleaner]

I'm just saying that something starts as a rumor and before you know it the sky is falling.

When you look at it sensibly, there is a long, long way to go before this could happen.

That's true, so maybe consider our actions as a means to prevent all the unnecessary time and effort for what could be a wasted endeavour.

[wzhxvy]

your going to get yourseft banned

Have you read the posts Nascar ?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

TBH, I'd like to think that the Globe would hold itself to a higher standard of journalism and not publish mere rumours. This is something to take seriously.

[Boris]

EVERYONE...last warning..this thread will be closed and cleaned up and infrations handed out... FINAL WARNING

[Always There]

I bet you think you're pretty clever.

Faking an about face to sway action ... tsk tsk ...

I don't understand. I'm not making an about face.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

http://webspace.webring.com/people/jv/vibes/chill_pill.jpg

[Always There]

again...we have people who have worked all day on this.

What does that mean?

If you know something I don't, why not share?

[Blazer]

Boris, don’t close the thread. Just turn out the lights on people. This thread deserves exposure.

Regenerating in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1379458/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-owners-want-team-to-move/article1379458/)

[Always There]

EVERYONE...last warning..this thread will be closed and cleaned up and infrations handed out... FINAL WARNING

Are we reading a different thread?

[Boris]

Boris, don’t close the thread. Just turn out the lights on people. This thread deserves exposure.

it wont be closed but rather closed for a bit cleaned up and re opened

[Boris]

Are we reading a different thread?

seriously?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Are we reading a different thread?
Dude, who ARE you? And more importantly, how can you fail to notice the currently ongoing flame war enveloping this thread?

[Always There]

I think there's a discussion going on. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Blazer]

it wont be closed but rather closed for a bit cleaned up and re opened

Kinda like Britney Spears?!

[Boris]

I think there's a discussion going on. Maybe I'm missing something?

a discussion with a back and forth flame war that has nothing to do with the thread topic... again..stay on topic. PM me if you have an issue

[Rudi]

^ zing! :D

EDIT: Bah! That was meant to point to Blazer's post.

[Boris]

ok back to topic lol

[wzhxvy]

So back on topic, I am on the fence on this, I think the fact that these are actions by a couple of guys selling the team, makes me think twice before getting really worried. On the other hand, their deal with Rogers is a good one as far as I have heard, so what kind of leverage are they creating here and maybe there is something to this ?...dont know...

[Boris]

yeah thats the thing. There are sooo many angles to cinsider on this topic. As some suggest, its a smokescreen. Others have other theories. In the end time will tell. As i said many times before we are looking into it so we can plan the correct plan of action.

[Cashcleaner]

yeah thats the thing. There are sooo many angles to cinsider on this topic. As some suggest, its a smokescreen. Others have other theories. In the end time will tell. As i said many times before we are looking into it so we can plan the correct plan of action.

Agreed. It is important to outline our opposition and the reasons for that, but no need to fly off the handle until we know what we're dealing with.

[Boris]

^ Agreed. It is important to outline our opposition and the reasons for that, but no need to fly off the handle until we know what we're dealing with.

we've been forced into taking a strong drastic stand before on this issue and it didnt come off well. If action is needed it will be taken. But i want to find facts first

[Blazer]

Awwww, but it’s so much funnnner to fly off handles daddy!

[Always There]

a discussion with a back and forth flame war that has nothing to do with the thread topic... again..stay on topic. PM me if you have an issue

That's cool. I recently asked you an on topic question that you ignored so that you could post about staying on topic.

I'll come back another time. I feel like I'm getting in trouble with several teachers at the moment, which isn't really much fun.

[Jack]

We do know what we're dealing with.

The Argos are making another strong push to get themselves into BMO Field, up to and including petitioning the CFL to allow them to play on a shorter field in order to facilitate them moving in without significant alterations to the structure.

At this point, they are moving to public opinion and politics to try to get this done.

But our opposition to this has to be better than "those angry soccer guys again".

[Boris]

But our opposition to this has to be better than "those angry soccer guys again".

exactly! which is why we need to figure out what exactly is going on.
last thing i want is to be a laughing stock.

We need to be smart..

[deltox]

did this already get posted?

MLSE response to the argos in BMO..

and video of turf being ripped up

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp

[canadian_bhoy]

I'm really surprised that MLSE wouldn't put a clause in the contract with the city (and the 5m they paid) that gave them veto power over any tenant that would compromise the investment

[mlsintoronto]

I'm really surprised that MLSE wouldn't put a clause in the contract with the city (and the 5m they paid) that gave them veto power over any tenant that would compromise the investment

unfortunately that was a non-starter.

[Hooligan69]

Lovely. As if I wasn't feeling bad enough today. Now I had to read this garbage.

[wzhxvy]

I'm really surprised that MLSE wouldn't put a clause in the contract with the city (and the 5m they paid) that gave them veto power over any tenant that would compromise the investment

My experience is that "Government" is not good at accepting those kind of conditions, especially when you are selling them on converting their facilities over. They are also not very flexible and that kind of condition might have met with resistance at the city or delayed the approval.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

unfortunately that was a non-starter.
Kinda saw that coming, sadly. :facepalm:

Shouldn't real grass essentially put an end to the Argos talk, though? I'm not sure of the logic myself but I thought getting a grass pitch would make it impossible? Not to mention, I remember there being talk of a permanent north stand going up this winter...

[Shakes McQueen]

unfortunately that was a non-starter.

How likely do you think this is, PB? And is the mothership planning on doing anything about it - either publicly, or behind the scenes?

- Scott

[Redcoe15]

If Cinamon and Sokolowsky believe they can move the Argos into BMO Field with the dimensions as they are, thereby playing on a field totally different from your standard Canadian gridiorn, then they are the TWO BIGGEST IDIOTS on the face of the planet. Never mind feeling the wrath of soccer fans. That will pale in comparisson to the Argo fans and CFL purists who will despise playing on anything short. Those two weasels are inviting a world of hurt!

[andyc]

I just sent the following email to my councilor, copying all of the other councilors. We'll see what reply I receive....

Councilor Shiner


I live in your Ward and am reaching out to you to express my concern at today's press reports indicating that the Argos have presented a letter of intent to the City of Toronto outlining their proposal to move to BMO Field at Exhibition place.

As I'm sure you are aware this stadium is currently home of Toronto FC Major League Soccer franchise and the installation of a grass playing surface was recently approved by the City Council at the cost of approximately $5 million.

As you consider this proposal, please bear the following items in mind:

- BMO field is approximately 45 yards too short and 20 yards to narrow to accommodate Canadian Football. Any expansion of the stadium would be prohibitively expensive and would significantly deteriorate the game experience. Consider for example if the Air Canada Centre was modified so that a Maple Leafs game had an empty dead-zone of at least 10 yards separating the fans from the edge of the ice. As I'm sure you can imagine, this would drastically affect the atmosphere, experience of the fans as well as TV coverage significantly for the worse.

- The internal facilities for players at BMO Field are also clearly not sufficient for a professional CFL team in addition the the existing TFC athletes. The cost for the addition of locker rooms for the extended Argos and visiting team rosters as well as the specialized fitness facilities would far exceed the current figures being reported by the Argos owners.

- Given the recently approved investment in order to install real grass at BMO Field, I am seriously concerned that the introduction of an overlapping season of CFL games will inevitably result in the field quickly becoming damaged and unplayable. Under this over use, the cost of maintaining the field, given Toronto's extreme weather conditions, will sky rocket and I seriously doubt that MLSE will agree to underwrite these expenses.

- In addition the radically conflicting styles and markings required for each sport will ultimately affect the credibility and integrity of both sports. This multi purpose type of stadium is being rejected by many sports teams across North America in order to enhance the fans experience and deliver a more authentic experience. TFC's success to date has been built on a foundation traditional soccer values. The introduction of the markings required for CFL would drive away the core fans and seriously impact the organizations business model. As a season ticket holder for myself and family since the first year, I would immediately give up my tickets if a CFL came to BMO. I know for certain that a great deal of other season ticket holders feel the same way.

- While BMO field was built utilizing a significant portion of public funding, a large part of the rationale was to introduce a Canadian National Soccer Specific Stadium. There are very few professional level facilities available to Canadian soccer athletes and having a soccer specific stadium with a grass field is critical for the development of the mens and womens national team. Providing a home stadium in Canada's largest city will allow the CSA to schedule high profile games drawing both attention and material $'s to Toronto.

- Please also bear in mind that the Rogers Centre, the current home of the Argos, was also funded by public money. In addition, the Argos currently play at their existing stadium rent free so they are certainly far from being in desperate need for facilities. In fact a recent survey by the Argos of their season ticket holders resulted in an overwhelming preference not to move to BMO Field.

- The existing Argos management team had several opportunities to be part of the proposed stadium development that eventually became BMO Field. They were heavily involved in the various plans to build at the University of Toronto and then York University. In fact, their last minute decision to withdraw seriously jeopardized the ability for Toronto to host the FIFA U17 World Cup which would have left the city in a publicly humiliating position. Please bear in mind that this late withdrawal from the plans for York University was prompted by the offer from the Rogers Centre to allow the Argos to play rent free. I think that it is strange that the Argos management now feel that they can move into BMO Field without being held responsible for the implications of their earlier actions.

This topic is an area that fans of both the Argos and Toronto FC feel strongly about. While I am a TFC supporter I also have the utmost respect for the Argos history, tradition and fan base. Given the upcoming election in the city, I am concerned that this could become a political issue that will polarize the voters. I am asking you to not allow this to happen.

Please help ensure that the council focus on the core business issues at hand.

I look forward to understanding your position on this matter,

[mlsintoronto]

How likely do you think this is, PB? And is the mothership planning on doing anything about it - either publicly, or behind the scenes?

- Scott

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Isn't it kind of funny how after everyone complaining about how freezing and generally awful it was at Exhibition Stadium, everyone wants back in now? If the Argos wanted their stadium, they could have built it, but as everyone remembers, they backed out when they found out what a sweet deal they would be getting at Skydome.


In November 2004 it was announced that a new stadium for the Argos was to be built on the campus of York University
by 2007. This followed the failure of an earlier plan to build a new facility at the site of Varsity Stadium at the University of Toronto. If the move were completed it would mark a move by the Argonauts from downtown Toronto where they have played since their inception to the suburbs. One plan to make the suburban location attractive to fans was to import the American tradition of tailgating parties in the parking lot
before the game. The Argos' move to York was also expected to increase pressure on the provincial and city governments to finance an extension of the subway to the university.

However, in April 2005, the Argonauts announced their plans to move to York University had been changed as the up-front costs payable by the team to build the stadium had risen, and the owners of the Rogers Centre announced that the Argos would be able to remain at the stadium rent-free (prior to this, the Argos were paying the highest rental fees in the league). The team officially announced they would remain at Rogers Centre on May 2, 2005; soon afterward, the University officially cancelled the stadium plans.
The morons.

[wzhxvy]

SARCASTIC POST:

Oh btw guys, if you were trying to get Rogers to buy your team, would this not be a good strategy (to threaten to go somewhere else other than Rogers Centre ?)...hmmm...

Maybe MLSE will buy the Argos...oh hold on...no...that would not be a good thing, because Switzerland might change its stripes if that were to happen, they would make us all feel better by hiring the leading grass fluffer to fluff the grass to make sure its ready after Argo games

[Redcoe15]

Isn't it kind of funny how after everyone complaining about how freezing and generally awful it was at Exhibition Stadium, everyone wants back in now? If the Argos wanted their stadium, they could have built it, but as everyone remembers, they backed out when they found out what a sweet deal they would be getting at Skydome.

The morons.
That's why Cynamon and Sokolowsky are such two faced weasels. They have no shame and are short of memory.

[Blizzard]

did this already get posted?

MLSE response to the argos in BMO..

and video of turf being ripped up

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp


This link will take you directly to the video in question.

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=8&id=1487

[Blizzard]

If Cinamon and Sokolowsky believe they can move the Argos into BMO Field with the dimensions as they are, thereby playing on a field totally different from your standard Canadian gridiorn, then they are the TWO BIGGEST IDIOTS on the face of the planet. Never mind feeling the wrath of soccer fans. That will pale in comparisson to the Argo fans and CFL purists who will despise playing on anything short. Those two weasels are inviting a world of hurt!

100% agree.

I just can't see the millions of CFL supporter's across Canada sitting back and allowing the Argos to make such a huge change to the fundamental qualities of CFL football.

Sure, they may say "we're not changing the width of the field or the three downs, this is still Canadian football" but anybody with half a brain knows better.

You don't change a 150 yard CFL field to a 120 yard NFL field without it being seen as an insult to the Canadian game and an insult to the supporters of the CFL not to mention the slap in the face to their league partners.

I'd be shocked if the league goes along with it. This may be Cohon's first big test. Let's see if he passes or not!

[james]

The Steelers also still play on real grass.

i was just reading an article from 2008 that says the Steelers had to finnish the season on artificial turf but then put grass in mixed with some fibre grass blades the following season because the Steeler players said grass is much better then artificial turf. They also said they would mostly likely coninue to have mud baths in late November due to rain and wear and tear. So either way, my point was Steelers field is hard to contain, imagine sharring that with a soccer team that plays 20-30 games a season on it.

[Blizzard]

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=8&id=1487

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

"Our fans aren't crazy about it" may be the understatement of the millennium so far.

FIGHT for your investment, Tom. Argos at BMO would in no uncertain terms wreck everything, grass obviously included, that MLSE have put into TFC so far.

While the likes of Mammoliti and Ford sit on Toronto city council we can't trust the city to use common sense. I hope people at MLSE do what they can to prevent this from ever happening.

[Blizzard]

"Our fans aren't crazy about it" may be the understatement of the millennium so far.

FIGHT for your investment, Tom. Argos at BMO would in no uncertain terms wreck everything, grass obviously included, that MLSE have put into TFC so far.

While the likes of Mammolito and Ford sit on Toronto city council we can't trust the city to use common sense. I hope people at MLSE do what they can to prevent this from ever happening.

I'm sure MLSE and Anselmi are fighting tooth and nail against this but they do have a contract with the city to run the facility. They have to be politically delicate about this. It's not like they can go public with their feelings.

[Beach_Red]

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.


Of course. Now, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but we remember when the Raptors were building the ACC, MLSE said many tims it simply wasn't suitable for hockey. Now they have their team, supposedly the jewel of the NHL, playing there.

So, MLSE can't be counted on for support here - they are Switzerland.

The owners of the Argos have discovered they can't even sell the team as is, but they know if they get them into a decent stadium it'll have the same effect it had for the Als (who still play playoff games in the Big O, remember) and the value will go way up. So, maybe it's a negotiating tool to get a better deal from Rogers, but maybe it's a condition of a sale.

Either the Argos should team up with U of T and do something with Varsity, or they should team up with whoever thinks they're going to own the Bills and build a "Center of Football Excellence" at Downsview that can suit both CFL and NFL as well as college and high school football.

[Cashcleaner]

I just sent the following email to my councillor, copying all of the other councillors. We'll see what reply I receive....

Councillor Shiner


I live in your Ward and am reaching out to you to express my concern at today's press reports indicating that the Argos have presented a letter of intent to the City of Toronto outlining their proposal to move to BMO Field at Exhibition place.

As I'm sure you are aware this stadium is currently home of Toronto FC Major League Soccer franchise and the installation of a grass playing surface was recently approved by the City Council at the cost of approximately $5 million.

As you consider this proposal, please bear the following items in mind:

- BMO field is approximately 45 yards too short and 20 yards to narrow to accommodate Canadian Football. Any expansion of the stadium would be prohibitively expensive and would significantly deteriorate the game experience. Consider for example if the Air Canada Centre was modified so that a Maple Leafs game had an empty dead-zone of at least 10 yards separating the fans from the edge of the ice. As I'm sure you can imagine, this would drastically affect the atmosphere, experience of the fans as well as TV coverage significantly for the worse.

- The internal facilities for players at BMO Field are also clearly not sufficient for a professional CFL team in addition the the existing TFC athletes. The cost for the addition of locker rooms for the extended Argos and visiting team rosters as well as the specialized fitness facilities would far exceed the current figures being reported by the Argos owners.

- Given the recently approved investment in order to install real grass at BMO Field, I am seriously concerned that the introduction of an overlapping season of CFL games will inevitably result in the field quickly becoming damaged and unplayable. Under this over use, the cost of maintaining the field, given Toronto's extreme weather conditions, will sky rocket and I seriously doubt that MLSE will agree to underwrite these expenses.

- In addition the radically conflicting styles and markings required for each sport will ultimately affect the credibility and integrity of both sports. This multi purpose type of stadium is being rejected by many sports teams across North America in order to enhance the fans experience and deliver a more authentic experience. TFC's success to date has been built on a foundation traditional soccer values. The introduction of the markings required for CFL would drive away the core fans and seriously impact the organizations business model. As a season ticket holder for myself and family since the first year, I would immediately give up my tickets if a CFL came to BMO. I know for certain that a great deal of other season ticket holders feel the same way.

- While BMO field was built utilizing a significant portion of public funding, a large part of the rationale was to introduce a Canadian National Soccer Specific Stadium. There are very few professional level facilities available to Canadian soccer athletes and having a soccer specific stadium with a grass field is critical for the development of the mens and womens national team. Providing a home stadium in Canada's largest city will allow the CSA to schedule high profile games drawing both attention and material $'s to Toronto.

- Please also bear in mind that the Rogers Centre, the current home of the Argos, was also funded by public money. In addition, the Argos currently play at their existing stadium rent free so they are certainly far from being in desperate need for facilities. In fact a recent survey by the Argos of their season ticket holders resulted in an overwhelming preference not to move to BMO Field.

- The existing Argos management team had several opportunities to be part of the proposed stadium development that eventually became BMO Field. They were heavily involved in the various plans to build at the University of Toronto and then York University. In fact, their last minute decision to withdraw seriously jeopardized the ability for Toronto to host the FIFA U17 World Cup which would have left the city in a publicly humiliating position. Please bear in mind that this late withdrawal from the plans for York University was prompted by the offer from the Rogers Centre to allow the Argos to play rent free. I think that it is strange that the Argos management now feel that they can move into BMO Field without being held responsible for the implications of their earlier actions.

This topic is an area that fans of both the Argos and Toronto FC feel strongly about. While I am a TFC supporter I also have the utmost respect for the Argos history, tradition and fan base. Given the upcoming election in the city, I am concerned that this could become a political issue that will polarize the voters. I am asking you to not allow this to happen.

Please help ensure that the council focus on the core business issues at hand.

I look forward to understanding your position on this matter,


Now THAT is exactly the sort of email we should be sending out.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I'm sure MLSE and Anselmi are fighting tooth and nail against this but they do have a contract with the city to run the facility. They have to be politically delicate about this. It's not like they can go public with their feelings.
You're right... this is why I'd be a crappy politician. lol

I agree on Varsity, but I'm sure they'd rather lease BMO rather than having to help pay for a stadium themselves.

[Hitcho]

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

I've heard that having an enormous stash of Nazi gold can come in very handy for some things... :D

RPB uber-being think tank people - Paul B has a point and we're as powerless as they are. The city doesn't care what TFC fans think and nor do the Argos owners. But a lot of key players in this DO care about what the Argos fans think. They are the key players here. If they get a clear message across that they are dead set against amove to BMO Field then it will make the owners think twice about any plans (real or manipulative) to try and push this through, and the city too. So we should seriously consider approaching the Argo equivalent of the SGs and working with them if they don't want this to happen. (I know because you are uber-beings that this is already underway, but I am raising it just in case).

Also, in addition to emailing your TO councillors people, E-MAIL THE CFL AND PROTEST VEHEMENTLY AGAINST ANY SUGGESTION OF ALLOWING A SHORTENED FIELD IN THE CANADIAN GAME. You don't have to believe it or mean it, but if the CFL thinks tens of thousands of people are outraged at the idea and that it's killing the public's view of the game, then it may make them think twice about allowing the proposal to go through.

Also, anyone in the media reading this and wanting to help, we need public pressure mounted. Write articles about how sickening it would be for the CFL to have a shortened field allowed and that this would be the death of CFL. Write articles about how all of the Argos fans are dead against the idea and would not turn up to games at BMO Field. You get the idea.

The list of councillors is great, let's bombard with sensible, well reasoned e-mails as to why this is such a bad idea: impact on soccer in this country; number of kids who play soccer that will be negatively impacted, etc. Man I wish Miller was running for mayor again.

[Hitcho]

I feel sick. This has ruined my Friday night.

I really didn't think anything would ever tempt me into giving up my season tickets, ever. But visible pointy ball lines on the field for the forseeable future. Well, that might just do it. It would be a slap in the face to everyone that has supported soccer in TO since TFC was incepted and would make the club look like an amateur bag of farts.

[billyfly]

What's cheaper? MLSE buying the Argos or watching the 5 millon on grass go up in smoke?

Joey Pants is a pant load and I've said that before.

Bill Waters and his son HATE the current Argo owners b/c they are 2 faced.

[andyc]

What's cheaper? MLSE buying the Argos or watching the 5 millon on grass go up in smoke?



We need to be careful about what we wish for around MLSE buying the Argos... Do you really think that if MLSE owned the Argos they would still play at the Rogers Centre?? Pretty much the only non-MLSE owned professional sports venue in town??

In this scenario we have the Argos installed at BMO tomorrow and TFC TV has a line up of players and coaches saying how great it is...

Best bet for a soccer specific stadium is for Rogers to buy them in order to make NFL in Canada protests go away.

[billyfly]

^LOL. OK MLSE buys Blue Jays and Rogers buys Argos.

[andyc]

^LOL. OK MLSE buys Blue Jays and Rogers buys Argos.

And blue jays move back to Exhibition Stadium??? :D

Good times!

[canadian_bhoy]

unfortunately that was a non-starter.

fair enough


Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

If you're switzerland can RPB be (insert aggressive hostile nation here)?

[James Oliphant]

If you're switzerland can RPB be (insert aggressive hostile nation here)?

The Falkland Islands?

[Always There]

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

Switzerland implies neutrality. I would hope you would not want want the Argos in BMO even if you don't feel you have a say in the matter. Your opinion can still count even if you don't have a direct vote.

[billyfly]

Hey Always There:

We'll have to change the name to Canada's National Football Stadium (get it?)

[Hitcho]

Switzerland implies neutrality. I would hope you would not want want the Argos in BMO even if you don't feel you have a say in the matter. Your opinion can still count even if you don't have a direct vote.

agreed for sure, but there are some things that cannot be openly stated in public forums. i very much get the sense that things are happening here below the surface. this group has learned a lot in its relatively short history. ;)

[billyfly]

I understand the idea of the Argos moving to a more intimate stadium. I hate the Rogers Centre (and I wish the BJs moved to an open air stadium as well).

I just want a nice soccer specific stadium for my home team.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

What's cheaper? MLSE buying the Argos or watching the 5 millon on grass go up in smoke?

Joey Pants is a pant load and I've said that before.

Bill Waters and his son HATE the current Argo owners b/c they are 2 faced.


MLSE should buy the Argis, then soon after fold the franchise leaving the
CFL is a right mess.they might not bounce back from!!! Death to the CFL!!

[billyfly]

Oh Mighty.......what can one say about you?

Here's an idea -go to the friends of argos website and cause havoc there.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Oh Mighty.......what can one say about you?

Here's an idea -go to the friends of argos website and cause havoc there.


did that last year..got threatend with a lawsuit ...called the CFL the canadian faggot league they got a little pissed!!

[billyfly]

did that last year..got threatend with a lawsuit ...called the CFL the canadian faggot league they got a little pissed!!

That was my secret idea (I am so devilish)

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

That was my secret idea (I am so devilish)


:} im sure someone else will beat me to the punch this time!! tempers are boiling!!

[Shakes McQueen]

did that last year..got threatend with a lawsuit ...called the CFL the canadian faggot league they got a little pissed!!

God you're an idiot.

- Scott

[TFC07]

This doesn't make sense though...Why would Argos leave sky dome (they don't pay rent at all) to move to BMO field which will cost them money to play in? Why would City of Toronto be dumb enough to let this happen? Don't they realize that this will kill soccer and all money they make from it(they make more money from soccer than they'll make from argos playing in BMO field)? Also, why would CFL let Argos play on small field?

BTW, I generally enjoy watching CFL (btw, i am planning to watch Grey Cup), but this Argos issue is making it very hard for me to support Argos and CFL right now. In fact, if Argos do end up playing in BMO field, then I hope Bills/NFL comes to Toronto and kill the Argos for good.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

God you're an idiot.

- Scott

why?

[Cashcleaner]

Oh Mighty.......what can one say about you?

Here's an idea -go to the friends of argos website and cause havoc there.

No, thats exactly what we don't need. As it was explained before, there are plenty of Argonaut fans that don't want to leave Rogers Centre. Alienating them would be shooting ourselves in the foot. We need as many people on our side as we can get.

[billyfly]

Sorry. I was just trying to get Mighty in trouble.

[Cashcleaner]

Sorry. I was just trying to get Mighty in trouble.

It's okay. Your heart was in the right place.

[TFC07]

In other hand, if the Argos do move to BMO field, then I hope MLSE sells the team to owner(s) who actually know the game of soccer and willing spend their own money to build their own stadium.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Dear Councillor Hall,

As a constituent of yours in Ward 1, I am writing to you to express my concern over the possibility of the Toronto Argonauts moving into BMO Field, Canada's National Soccer Stadium and home of Toronto FC.

It was widely reported today that the Argos have again stated their interest in moving to BMO Field. This is concerning to me, as a Torontonian and an avid fan of Canadian soccer, for a number of reasons.

As you may be aware, the process of replacing the FieldTurf pitch at BMO Field with a real grass playing surface was begun today, at a cost of $5 million. The installation of real grass at BMO Field represents a giant step forward for the game of soccer in our city; until now, Canada's national team players had expressed their preference to play at Montreal's Stade Saputo because of its real grass surface, and indeed the FieldTurf surface at BMO has also been roundly criticized by Toronto FC players and staff, as well as visiting players.

However, if the Argonauts were to share BMO Field, the $5 million being spent on grass would be money wasted. The additional wear the field would incur from having the Argonuats play and practice on it would cause it to rapidly deteriorate and become virtually unplayable. Even the FieldTurf surface, likened to concrete after three years of constant use, would be better than a trampled, destroyed grass surface. The cost of maintaining the pitch would inevitably skyrocket with such overuse, and it seems to me that MLSE would likely be reluctant to cover the costs incurred by the Argonauts.

In addition, BMO Field would have to be completely renovated to accommodate the Argonauts. Among other things, additional dressing rooms and training facilities would have to be built, and each of the four stands would have to be moved to accommodate the larger size of a CFL field, which is 45 yards longer and 20 yards wider than the stadium's current field. The necessary work to accommodate the Argos would come at a huge cost to the city; work undertaken to accommodate a team that currently enjoys free rent at the Rogers Centre, a facility also built with funding from the City of Toronto.

The existing Argos ownership also had several opportunities to be part of the proposed stadium development that eventually became BMO Field. They were heavily involved in the various plans to build a joint Argonauts and Canadian national soccer stadium at the University of Toronto and then York University. In fact, their last-minute decision to withdraw from the York stadium plans seriously jeopardized the ability of Toronto to host the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup (FIFA's granting of the tournament to Toronto was on the condition that a soccer-specific stadium be built in time for the tournament), which would have left the city in a publicly humiliating position. Please bear in mind that this late withdrawal from the plans for York University was prompted by the offer from the Rogers Centre to allow the Argos to play rent-free, as documented here:

http://www.tsn.ca/story/print/?id=123591

While I respect the tradition of the Argonauts and in fact am a fan of the team, it is my belief that their playing at BMO Field would not be in the best interests of our city, and especially not in the best interests of Canadian soccer, to which BMO Field has been a godsend. Toronto FC's popularity has furthered the growth of the game in Toronto and across Canada in an un-precedented manner, and last year a FIFA World Cup qualifier between Canada and Jamaica at BMO Field sold out and the support was largely pro-Canadian; something that never would have been possible, and indeed never happened, when our national teams played at Varsity Stadium.

In its present capacity as a soccer-specific stadium BMO Field has been an overwhelming success. While I have the utmost respect for the Toronto Argonauts, their moving to BMO Field would prevent it from being a proper home for Toronto FC and for our Canadian national soccer teams, as illustrated.

I would ask, as a constituent of yours, that should this matter come before city council, you please share my concerns with your peers.

Sincerely,

Part of it stolen from andyc's letter, but yeah. Harass your councillors, RPBs.

[WestStandGeoff]

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

Neutrality isn't necessarily a good thing... not standing up against something terrible is often as bad as standing with it.

In the immortal words of Neil Peart - "If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice". Freewill, 1980

[billyfly]

^http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/Alkonium/Rush2112BlkWhtStarman.jpg

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

No, thats exactly what we don't need. As it was explained before, there are plenty of Argonaut fans that don't want to leave Rogers Centre. Alienating them would be shooting ourselves in the foot. We need as many people on our side as we can get.


dont worry its not happening this time either...!! but the argo fans may have no choice the same way we dont unless TFC goes to the dome?
But as usual it all comes down to the politicans..again...MLSE just but the city out of BMO.i know the exhibitions grounds have never been sold to private interests but this time it might have to happen, just fro BMO only and enough area to expand the stadium nothing more, nothing less.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Neutrality isn't necessarily a good thing... not standing up against something terrible is often as bad as standing with it.

In the immortal words of Neil Peart - "If you chose not to decide, you still have made a choice". Freewill, 1980
Excellent album, even if it was 9 years before I was born. :drinking:

[Stryker]

MLSE should just buy the whole damn thing, tell the Argos to piss up a rope and make whatever modifications they want to BMO Field.

[Dirk Diggler]

Neutrality isn't necessarily a good thing... not standing up against something terrible is often as bad as standing with it.



Come on man ... this is MLSE we are talking about here ... they might operate some horrible, horrible teams but one thing they do not do is get screwed.

[Shakes McQueen]

You guys are really good at theoretically spending lots of MLSE's money, haha.

- Scott

[TFC07]

MLSE should just buy the whole damn thing, tell the Argos to piss up a rope and make whatever modifications they want to BMO Field.

MLSE is too cheap to buy BMO field even though the City is broke and needs some money.

[Cashcleaner]

MLSE is too cheap to buy BMO field even though the City is broke and needs some money.

Rudi might be able to clarify, but I think it's provincial land.

[TFC07]

Rudi might be able to clarify, but I think it's provincial land.

I thought it's City's land. I believe that was their contribute of building BMO field. I don't think City paid any money of building BMO field. They just provided the land.

[Macksam]

That NFL game killed Wembly and arguably cost England their shot at Euro.

England sucking ass (at the time) cost them their shot at EURO.

[BakaGaijin]

Tom Anselmi expressed our position on Toronto FC TV. We're Switzerland.

I'll help keep the Argo's out. You stop raising my ticket prices.

[Darlofletch]

A new message was posted in the thread "Toronto city councillor backs Argos at BMO":

http://communities.sportsnet.ca/message/101125#101125

Author : PhillyCanuck
Profile : http://communities.sportsnet.ca/people/PhillyCanuck

Message:
--------------------------------------------------------------
I am sick of the "footy" fans talking about this as THEIR stadium...it is NOT TFC's stadium, it is MY stadium, and they play there. My friggin' taxes built it, and I sure as hell saw no reason to put another MLSE money grab in it, but as the idiots on TO city council saw fit, they handed it over. I would prefer to see the Argos there, seeing as it is a stadium for Toronto, and the CFL will outlast MLS by years and years...why wait to make it the Argos stadium...do it now.


YOU SIR, ARE AN IDIOT.

As far as this sort of "taxpayer funded so anyone should be able to use it" argument is concerned...

Yes, this stadium was buily largely with taxpayer money, and those taxpayers, through their elected representatives in different governments, decided that that money be spent on a NATIONAL SOCCER stadium.

Now some football fans and a privately owned team, want to come in and trample all over the wishes of Torontonian, Ontarian, and Canadian taxpayers by drastically changing what is a very good soccer stadium and, with the addition of a grass field, a genuine home for Canada's national teams.

Surely nothing could further cement the image of "selfish arrogant Toronto" in the eyes of the rest of the province and country, than having the NATIONAL SOCCER stadium they built with their own money, radically altered for the worse for the sake of a privately owned, Toronto based football team. Taxpayers surely wouldn't stand for that sort of thing.

[SilverSamurai]

If this goes through, the city will demonstrate that they are only concerned with short term profits, which won't be anywhere near what they expect. They will definitely kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
So much for TO being an "international and world city"...

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

CFL Exec emails:

mcohon@cfl.ca mcopeland@cfl.ca mmaychak@cfl.ca rassimakopoulos@cfl.ca jnishino@cfl.ca dallison@cfl.ca kmcdonald@cfl.ca asciarra@cfl.ca

Argo Exec emails:

dcynamon@KIKCORP.COM hsokolowski@tributecommunities.com bnicholson@argonauts.ca mclemons@argonauts.ca mafinec@argonauts.ca jnalevka@argonauts.ca dsteinfeld@argonauts.ca

I sent them an email indicating if they allow the Argos to move to BMO, I'll never watch or attend a CFL game, or buy any made by a CFL sponsor. Suggest all those concerned do the same. Some of these might bounce, but it's still worth the effort.

[Blizzard]

I thought it's City's land. I believe that was their contribute of building BMO field. I don't think City paid any money of building BMO field. They just provided the land.

They put in money too. Ten million rings a bell.

[Cashcleaner]

I thought it's City's land. I believe that was their contribute of building BMO field. I don't think City paid any money of building BMO field. They just provided the land.

I can't recall, but I think he once said that all of CNE land belongs to the province. Or something like the city maintains it but only in trust. That's basically why we could never just offer up to buy it.

[egoodwin]

say Argos do move in... I'd say we'd best be damn entitled to a partial refund of our season ticket prices... as in the bull$hit increase we paid yet again this year... nowhere did they state that we'd be watching our TFC play on a fucked up grass field with lines and ads on it... no. we paid extra because of this "pristine state of the art grass pitch" were getting...

if we don't get that grass pitch in excellent condition, and forced to endure lines and ads on the pitch... I want a partial refund. I don't care who pays the refund, ML$E or Argos, or whoever, I just don't want to have paid to watch our team play on a disgraced bastardized pitch

[Cashcleaner]

As far as this sort of "taxpayer funded so anyone should be able to use it" argument is concerned...

Yes, this stadium was buily largely with taxpayer money, and those taxpayers, through their elected representatives in different governments, decided that that money be spent on a NATIONAL SOCCER stadium.

That's actually pretty good point to bring up.

Also, here's one thing to consider that ties into that. The plans for BMO Field were all drawn up and approved by the city before a single clump of dirt was dug up. That means the pitch dimensions must have been reviewed and okayed as well. So people really can't use the argument that the Argos were shafted by some sneaky move by MLSE, because at the end of the day, the design all required - and eventually received, city approval.

[James Oliphant]

City, provincial, and federal approval, in fact. Not to mention CSA and FIFA approval.

Anyway, that's my reply below PhillyCanuck's ridiculous comment, and I think it's pretty succinct.

[TFC+Argos4Life]

I used to think it would be a good idea for the Argos to move to BMO. I've since changed my mind. I should note, however, that this change has nothing to do with the ignorant and offensive comments made by some posters in this forum about great Canadian institutions like the Canadian Football League and the Toronto Argonauts.

When BMO was still slated to have fieldturf, I believed (and still do) that the stadium could be expanded, the endzone seating made retractable, and the gridiron lines could be removed, without any adverse impacts on the TFC in-game experience. In fact, the experience would be enhanced due to increased seating. Since that time, the Argos at BMO talk died down and MLSE got approval to replace the fieldturf with natural turf. Twenty-four cleated football players pushing each other around on natural grass for four hours would make a grass pitch unusable for soccer. Opinions of soccer aside, that's unfair to TFC.

Throw into the mix the fact that David and Howard (I'm a season ticket holder, I think we're on a first-name basis) want to use the stadium WITHOUT making the stands movable for CFL games, and I start to get nervous. I don't think it would ever feel like our home stadium if we were shoehorned into a soccer field.

All that said, I don’t think Rogers Centre should be the long-term home of the Argos either. There’s such a huge opportunity at Downsview. That place is going to have its own subway station soon, and will be sandwiched between two planned LRT lines. There will be easy access from all of Toronto, plus Durham, York, and Peel regions. It’s very close (one subway stop away) from York University, who’ve been looking to improve the facilities for their sports teams.

There’s enough room at Downsview for a 25-27k seat football stadium, with a reduced configuration for NASL soccer (division 2 soccer, just starting up), CIS football, and CIS soccer. There’s also enough room for a sizable commercial, entertainment, and leisure area.

Finally, the NHL seems closer than ever to putting a second franchise in the GTA. In addition to the stadium and entertainment area, there’s also room for an NHL-calibre arena. An investment group boasting a year-round sports and entertainment district, plus potential synergies in sporting and events marketing, would be the frontrunner for a franchise.

The fact that York University would benefit from the project, and the successful Pan Am bid and prospective Womens’ World Cup of Soccer bid could open the door to some public money. A legitimate first shot at NHL ownership could bring forward interested private sector investors, in addition to David and Howard. If all this went ahead, Downsview could become the home of CFL football, NHL hockey, NASL soccer, and CIS football and soccer (mens and womens). Three professional and three amateur teams, using the place year-round and playing to packed houses from across the GTA.

So in summary, I don’t think the Argonauts should bother moving to BMO. A move without a significant expansion would be too much compromise on the great Canadian game, and football on natural grass would kill the turf. Better to ride out a few more years at the Rogers Centre while planning for a permanent home at Downsview.

[Cashcleaner]

Economically speaking, it really doesn't make any sense. Throw in the talk of matches played on a non-standard surface and you now start to tread into the realm of intangibilites that make the CFL unique in the eyes of many Canadians.

At face value, the whole idea just doesn't add up. The club (Argonauts) would be losing out on so much gate revenue by moving to BMO Field with its maximum capacity of just over 20,000 seats. They certainly wouldn't be able to host the Grey Cup again in such a venue for the same reason as well. Throw in the fact that the grass pitch has been approved and is in the process now of installation after so many months of negotiation between TFC and the city, and its hard to find any justification for such a move.

To put it bluntly, the whole scheme would be a step backward, not forward for the Argonauts.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

The link someone posted in the other thread to the Argos messageboard make it sound like they're pretty luke warm on the idea too. There's been a few articles to press overnight making this sound a little less imminent. There's still some question about the stability of the Argos ownership.

[boban]

unfortunately that was a non-starter.
Is there discussion in the MLSE house, to fully get rid of the Argo threat, and control tenant access to the stadium, about MLSE building their own stadium in light of this and lack of clauses protecting MLSE interests in the current stadium site and agreement?

[Shakes McQueen]

What I want to know is - and maybe PaulB can help shed some light on this - what abilities do MLSE have as the "caretakers" of BMO Field, in order to try and squeeze the Argos out of the picture?

Suppose they demand that the Argos pay to remove every single trace of football lines off the field before TFC games, and pay to (PROPERLY) repair the pitch after every single game - and if the grass needs to be replaced every year due to wear and tear, make them pay to replace it. Suppose MLSE insists that the stadium's dimensions remain exactly the same, and suppose MLSE refuses to let the Argos use the field at least two days before a TFC game (due to potential field damage).

Would those provisions make it simply inhospitable for the Argos to come to BMO? And do MLSE have the ability to enforce these kinds of things?

- Scott

[Pookie]

I just can't see it happening. My guess is this is part of the annual threat the Argo's make to leave the Rogers Centre, to try and get a better deal out of them.

MLSE will oppose any attempt to move in with everything they've got - especially with a $3.3 million dollar soccer pitch being installed. Could you imagine it being torn up by CFL players every other weekend?

This just... won't happen. It can't. The concept of a CFL team playing on a professional soccer pitch is just unthinkable, literally. And MLSE have way too much political muscle for it to happen.

As soon as the turf got torn out, I really think any realistic chance of the Argos landing there faded away.

But if it starts to look possible, we need to be out in FORCE.

- Scott

I'm going all the way back to page 1 to nod in agreement with this view on the subject.

I'd add that the Argo's ownership isn't exactly stable and they aren't exactly raking in money.

A 20,000 seat stadium is a step down since the tend to average over 28,000 per game. Of course, an expanded BMO could deliver those numbers but what would be the point to pay for an expansion when you are losing money?

This was the quote in the Star today:

Right now, the configuration of the 20,000-seat stadium would not allow for a 110-yard CFL field with 20-yard end zones.

Pantalone indicated it would be too expensive to alter the stadium and said the Argos would have to agree to the same lease term and conditions as Toronto FC.

The other issue is the turf. While it would be chewed up for TFC games, it would also be chewed up for "International Events" that were part and parcel of the plan to get grass approved. The U20 FIFA Championship netted the city somewhere around $900,000 and we all know the cash that RM brought in.

Seems like a non-starter. I just can't see this happening.

[Pookie]

... I know there is a thread (or two) going on the subject of the Argos. I just thought it would be important to know policitically who is pushing for it without it being buried in the myraid of opinion.

From Sportsnet...

Mark Grimes, a Toronto city councillor who is also chair of the Toronto Argos Foundation, said he has been actively involved on a plan to possibly move the team from Rogers Centre to BMO Field, perhaps as early as next year.

Grimes helped orchestrate the construction of BMO Field, which the city owns and Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment manages. The city recently agreed to a conversion to a natural grass field from its current artificial turf.

"I’ve had discussions with the ownership and I have had some meetings with the city on the possibility of maybe relocating the Argos to a couple of different locations and BMO Field was one of them," Grimes told sportsnet.ca. "The Montreal model (a 20,000-seat stadium that will be expanded to 25,000) would work well in Toronto and I’m going to do everything I can within my power to work with the city to make it happen."

Grimes said it is a possibility the Argos could move to BMO next season. He said there are "a couple of different options" to reconfigure the field size, which is currently fitted for soccer dimensions, to make it football friendly. It is a major reason, along with capped seating of just under 21,000, why the Argos haven’t moved to BMO, although it’s a subject that has been floated in the past.

There would be political hurdles that would need to be addressed first, both at the city council and Canadian Football League board, if the Argos were to move to BMO and play on a reconfigured football field.

"We should be doing everything we can to support the Argos and make sure they’re strong," Grimes said, adding he is speaking as a city councilor and not on behalf of the collective board. "It’s not only good for the city, it’s good for the CFL. They’re a very community-oriented team, they’re working with youth, and that’s what we need."

The Argos signed a 15-year lease agreement with the Rogers Centre in 2005, but it consists of three five-year contracts that include two five-year options. The first five-year segment concluded after this past season.


THE CONTACT INFO:

Mark Grimes
City Hall
100 Queen Street West, Suite C48
Toronto, ON M5H 2N2
Phone: 416-397-9273
Fax: 416-397-9279

councillor_grimes@toronto.ca (councillor_grimes@toronto.ca)

Councillor Grimes' website: www.markgrimes.ca (http://www.markgrimes.ca/)

[rocker]

Another point that I hope Argo fans realize -- their ticket prices at Skydome are cheaper than TFC tickets. They also have better washrooms and concession stands at Skydome. They also have a roof at Skydome to protect them from the awful lakeside conditions (the reason Skydome was built was in part because of the crap conditions happening at the Ex back in the day... anyone remember the Fog Bowl?).

I know that the Argos complain about their lease at Skydome, but the fact is, if they come to BMO, they still have to lease the stadium. MLSE operates the stadium with a cut of everything that goes on there. So they'll be a giving a cut to MLSE and the City. They won't get as many fans in the stadium as they do at Skydome, so they'll probably raise ticket prices to make up the difference. Are Argos fans ready for less comfort and higher ticket prices? hmmm.

[Pookie]

^ don't forget better parking and access to transit... assuming anyone can afford to still use transit in a year or two

I just don't see how moving from one leased arrangement to another leased arrangement with fewer seats and a potential capital investment, is a good idea... unless you are using one potential lease arrangement to negotiate a better deal with your current partner.

[billyfly]

So in summary, I don’t think the Argonauts should bother moving to BMO. A move without a significant expansion would be too much compromise on the great Canadian game, and football on natural grass would kill the turf. Better to ride out a few more years at the Rogers Centre while planning for a permanent home at Downsview.


I do think this is what will happen but I am not 100% sure.

[canadian_bhoy]

What do argo fans think about the potential reduction in end zone size to accomodate BMO field? Doesn't that diminish the credibility of the league? For such a percise game to just willy nilly say "well, let's just have 10 yard end zones" seems pretty crazy to me.

Although I will say - the 15 yard end zone is stupid.

[billyfly]

It's Joey Pantload as well.

[canadian_bhoy]

Has the CFL said anything about this yet?

I can't see the league allowing the dimensions of the field to be changed so dramatically. The difference between a 15 yard end zone and a 10 yard end zone in huge - will the league really allow the credibility of their league to be damaged as such?

Also - The argos would run into the same problem in BMO that they ran into at Skydome regarding the seating. At the dome, the first 10 or 15 rows at field level have to be blocked out because fans fans see past the players on the sidelines. I would think that will the seats at BMO being so close to pitch level, the same problem would occur, reducing the capacity even further.

[billyfly]

Commish Cohen is not super sunny to the idea.

[CretanBull]

^ Not to debate CFL football, but I think with 3 downs you see more long plays that need a 15 yard end zone.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

^ Blame the provincial and federal governments for downloading the cost of the TTC onto the city...

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

What's currently on the site of Varsity at U of T can barely be considered a stadium, the Argos could also look at building there.

What I'm seeing here, though, is that the Argos owners just seem quite reluctant to shell out the cash to actually build a stadium. As has been mentioned here before, it was they who backed out of a joint Argos and national soccer stadium at York to stay at Skydome...

And I really, really, really doubt that playing CFL football on a reduced field would go over well at all with anyone. I'm a fan of the CFL and the Argos; just not at BMO.

[Menelaos]

I've emailed him.
I used to be a season tickets holder for the Argos before they treated me the way they did.
Don't want them anywhere near the BMO field.

[rocker]

Also - The argos would run into the same problem in BMO that they ran into at Skydome regarding the seating. At the dome, the first 10 or 15 rows at field level have to be blocked out because fans fans see past the players on the sidelines. I would think that will the seats at BMO being so close to pitch level, the same problem would occur, reducing the capacity even further.

i never thought of that.... good point. and some of those seats are prime choice club seats, where the big money comes in.

[ensco]

The CFL office will have a huge role in deciding this, it sounds like.

It has a live hand grenade in its hand on this one. On the one hand, there is a problem with football in the concrete mausoleum that is Skydome. It doesn't work there. On the other hand....

MLSE are the 1000 lb gorrilla in Toronto sports. They will likely one day be part of a facilities deal that could save the Argos. But the current Argo owners have created a blood feud with MLSE.

Argo owners come and go. Does the CFL really need to escalate this and make a lifelong enemy out of MLSE?

Also TSN matter here. They are the ultimate patron of the CFL. Their position is more complex, they have irons in every fire, but they can't be happy about this - football at BMO denigrates the overall product, which they have a big commitment to, and they don't need to be pissing on MLSE's rug either.

[wzhxvy]

So I slept on this and it still doesnt make sense. If you have a team on sale, and basically showing a lack of commitment to the team, how can you go to the league and ask for such a majour exception. It makes no sense whatsoever. The league will not agree to it at this point, unless the team is sold, and the new owner makes it a condition of the sale, and there are no other buyers, and the threat of no CFL in Toronto looms. I dont think we are at this stage.

So this goes back to in my mind, a negotiating ploy with Rogers...it just does not make sense for anything else. Think about it this way, if you are selling the Argos you want the new owner to think they have the prospect or chance to play in BMO as an option (you want every card on the table)...the last thing you want is limited options because it reduces the value. Thats why this tactic is risky if the CFL or Government(s) say no quickly, but I think the boys are betting on this being a protracted debate. And by the time of a verdict, they will be long gone and a new deal will be signed with Rogers.

[Mikey]

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Braley+rescue+again/2279974/story.html

Nice little article underlining that the current Argos ownership does not have a bean.

[Kaz]

If the Argo Owners are so strapped for cash who is going to shell out the $30 million for the expansion to 25,000 and the million or two a year to fix and maintain the pitch after every argo's game which would have to be scheduled the day after TFC home games so the Pitch is in the best possible condition at the start of every game

It shouldn't be on MLSE to have to shell out the cash to do that, that should be a condition on the Argo's. It should also be at their cost to expand the Stadium to 25,000 for CFL and 28,000 for MLS

I think it's a idiotic idea... the whole purpose of the stadium has become to grow the other sports in this country, Association Football and Lacrosse both have decent homes to play in. and I think it's wonderful that way.

The Stadium is a dis-service to the Argo's and isn't any more fair to them then it is to TFC.

[MisterMacphisto]

I used to think it would be a good idea for the Argos to move to BMO. I've since changed my mind. I should note, however, that this change has nothing to do with the ignorant and offensive comments made by some posters in this forum about great Canadian institutions like the Canadian Football League and the Toronto Argonauts.

:D

LOL, this sounds a lot like this post (http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401), except with a few different edits.


I used to think it would be a good idea for the Argos to move to BMO. I've since changed my mind. I should note, however, that this change has nothing to do with the jagoffs over at the Red Patch Boys forum. I'm confinced that a sizable component of them care nothing for soccer, but are instead euro-trash wannabes who touch themselves while watching the UK series "Football Factories"... But I digress...

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Shakes' comment on this story may be the greatest thing of all time.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/argos-face-challenges-in-moving-to-bmo-field/article1381206/

[CretanBull]

I used to think it would be a good idea for the Argos to move to BMO. I've since changed my mind. I should note, however, that this change has nothing to do with the jagoffs over at the Red Patch Boys forum. I'm confinced that a sizable component of them care nothing for soccer, but are instead euro-trash wannabes who touch themselves while watching the UK series "Football Factories"... But I digress...


It's almost like he's spying in my bedroom window :o

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Ive sent an email to all the concillors and i expect all to do the same, we have to let them know and i dont think a protest is out of order (if i was back in canada id gladly be first in line)

[Parkdale]

it's funny how people are making this into a fan-vs-fan argument (not the original poster, but the comment from the argos board).

Moving to BMO field is got good for Argos fans either


The Argos deserve their own stadium, just as TFC deserves theirs -- but not the same one.




please, please, please... I beg all of you to teek from making blanket 'fuck the argos' statements.
My problem isn't with the team, and it certainly isn't with the fans, it's with the bullshit negotiating
tactics that their ownership seems to do every few years.

[Gixmo]

From Paul Beirne (Senior Director of Operations for TFC):



Protest Time? Me thinks so. Time for a good ole rally.

Leadership: get organizing!

For my fiancee, who gives a rats ass about my footballing religion in general, to proclaim over dinner that ' Wow, that's serious... Get to fighting, I know how much that 'church' means to you ' shows just how far along this is. I saw that from PB yesterday and decided it was time. I don't live in TO, but I sent my email as someone who travels and subsequently brings a little bit of cash game day into the economy etc. Everytime I come into Toronto, passing church is a highlight. It's our house, not thiers. Feck off Argos....

I surely hope this is a smoke screen, but this has the foundations to start a real, big, war....

[sweetlemon69]

What about football lines all over the pitch? What about the grass being chewed up? How is this even a good idea for anything TFC related. OP is probably working for the Argo's. Because to this day, I haven't met a true passionate football fan, who would want any of this. The states are straying away from this, why would move towards it?

[Always There]

Great point by Darlofletch on the previous page. The argument about taxpayer dollars from people in Toronto doesn't take in the fact that federal and provincial money were put in with the intention of BMO being the National Soccer Stadium.

It was just discussed on TSN and Dave Naylor raised the point that the phones were ringing off the hook at MLSE with TFC supporters upset about it.

I'd like to see MLSE giving the full court press against this. I really don't get the idea that you can't say things publicly. Why not? Try to get public support on your side.

I'm not sure about the idea that MLSE are cheap. The own the ACC outright and have invested millions more in the building to improve it on multiple occasions. They also just invested 5 million in TFC, which is half as much as it cost them to buy the team. Over time they will surely invest more in BMO.

All very interesting stuff. I hope CFL commissioner Mark Cohon speaks on it this weekend.

[Beach_Red]

There’s enough room at Downsview for a 25-27k seat football stadium, with a reduced configuration for NASL soccer (division 2 soccer, just starting up), CIS football, and CIS soccer. There’s also enough room for a sizable commercial, entertainment, and leisure area.




Is there enough room at Downsview for a stadium that could seat 80,000 for NFL games and be easily converted to sit 25,000 for CFL games - some kind of upper bowl that could be closed?

Because Toronto i he 4th or 5th largest metro area in North America and the NFL is the #1 sport and it seems inevitable it'll be here.

Toronto could use a pure foootball stadium for NFL, CFL, university, high school, pee wee, whatever.

[TFC+Argos4Life]

:D

LOL, this sounds a lot like this post (http://www.friendsoftheargonauts.ca/touchdown/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1401), except with a few different edits.

Hahahah yep, that’s me posting in the FOA forum. Nice detective work!

I like it the way it is on the FOA forum, but I cleaned it up for posting here since the mods sanctioned me once before when I was too “insulting forum members”.

[ag futbol]

Argos need their own stadium, but clearly moving to BMO isn't the best move for them either.

The totality of this is Argos moving to BMO is going to kill the quality of the grass field (regardless of repairs) and drive friendlies that make the city money elsewhere. It would also without a doubt hurt TFC.

If the team is really economically the big shit they claim to be, they should look at forging a partnership with the city, the jays (who also need a smaller venue), to build something that actually fits CFL football and taylors to their needs.

[ag futbol]

You're going down Grimes!!

http://phildellio.tripod.com/grimes.gif

[ag futbol]

Putting the argos in BMO field is an economic loser for the city of Toronto. Less friendlies, a reduced TFC, means less money for the city. The argos (and their < 10 games a year) are not going to even come close to making up for that.

I can see the arguement that the CFL needs a smaller venue .. but is that really BMO field? on the lake? with worse everything than Rogers centre? that can't even fit the dimensions of a CFL field?

[Stryker]

I've refused to watch away games to the shite on TV for the last three seasons because of pointy ball lines.
They're an abomination and make the league look like a joke.
If Argos play at BMO I'm dropping this team and never looking back.

[Wagner]

Are they going to retrofit the plumbing??
it's warm this year...
but november can be cold....and the plumbing is shut off at BMO.

[koryo]

please, please, please... I beg all of you to teek from making blanket 'fuck the argos' statements.
My problem isn't with the team, and it certainly isn't with the fans, it's with the bullshit negotiating
tactics that their ownership seems to do every few years.


Bang on.

I've mis-directed my frustration with this issue in the past at the team, it's fans, and the game in general. that's just wrong.

The Argos ownership and their sense of entitlement is what really angers me. They're looking for a handout - this after bailing on stadium plans in the past.

I just wonder who the hell they think they are.

[rocker]

i keep hearing these comparisons to Montreal in the press. But Rogers Centre is not nearly as problematic as the Big Owe. Second, the Molson Stadium was not being used by a professional team already when the Alouettes moved in. Third, it was already the proper size because the Alouettes *already played in the stadium* before the Big Owe was built. Fourth, the stadium is being expanded since the Alouettes think it's too small at 20000 seats. They are adding 5000 more seats at a cost of $30 million.

So it's not just a case of "moving into a smaller seating venue like Montreal did." Very very different context and circumstances.

[billyfly]

Hahahah yep, that’s me posting in the FOA forum. Nice detective work!

I like it the way it is on the FOA forum, but I cleaned it up for posting here since the mods sanctioned me once before when I was too “insulting forum members”.


Ha, Ha that was so funny how you called us jagoffs. I'm dying of laughter here.

Dude - you were exposed as a major asshole. Don't try and sugar coat it.

[profit89]

Stay the hell out Argos... You play a shit sport.

I hope the CFL folds.

[profit89]

CFL Exec emails:

mcohon@cfl.ca mcopeland@cfl.ca mmaychak@cfl.ca rassimakopoulos@cfl.ca jnishino@cfl.ca dallison@cfl.ca kmcdonald@cfl.ca asciarra@cfl.ca

Argo Exec emails:

dcynamon@KIKCORP.COM hsokolowski@tributecommunities.com bnicholson@argonauts.ca mclemons@argonauts.ca mafinec@argonauts.ca jnalevka@argonauts.ca dsteinfeld@argonauts.ca

I sent them an email indicating if they allow the Argos to move to BMO, I'll never watch or attend a CFL game, or buy any made by a CFL sponsor. Suggest all those concerned do the same. Some of these might bounce, but it's still worth the effort.

Done.

[profit89]

Emailed him.

[Dirk Diggler]

Ha, Ha that was so funny how you called us jagoffs. I'm dying of laughter here.

Dude - you were exposed as a major asshole. Don't try and sugar coat it.

Agreed.

Now fuck off (Argosfan4life ... not you billyfly :D )

[Pookie]

Couple of interesting things to consider:

- The original agreement had an Argos clause in it that stated: ... restrictions on the Argos shall include the stipulation that in no event shall an agreement with the Argos result in MLSE having to make additional capital cost contributions or fund capital cost shortfalls. The Argos shall not receive a share of parking revenues from their games which is as favourable or more favourable than that enjoyed by the Team. The Argos may participate in suite or sponsorship revenues where such are incremental revenues derived from the Argos’ use of the Stadium, provided that the sharing shall not result in an adverse effect on receipts allocated to the Team or Stadium.

Given that, I'm not sure where the Argos see the cash windfall to make a move like this.

Full Report (http://www.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/pec/2009/02-24/8-CSS0013-Document%201%20Appendix%20C%20-%20BMO%20Toronto%20Report.pdf)

Further, the City has stated that the Argos will not receive a "better deal" than MLSE.

MLSE covers any operational loss up to $250k annually to protect the City. Are the financially strapped Argos prepared to cover losses?

Further, MLSE has made a huge investment (relative) to upgrade the stadium and invest in the community in order to make this a soccer specific venture. For example, "Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment will invest $5.5 million and manage the work required to advance the sport in Toronto including investments of:

$3.5 million to replace the Field Turf at BMO Field with a natural grass field.

$2.0 million investment in community sports facilities; including an estimated $1.2 million to upgrade Allan Lamport Stadium with a winter bubble and an $800,000 investment in another artificial turf soccer field in the city. "


If the Argos are to have the "same deal" what are they going to invest in? Are they going to compensate MLSE? I can't see them just walking on to a surface that was paid for by MLSE without MLSE taking them to the cleaners for that privilege. If there is one thing that MLSE knows how to do, it is fleece their users.

Lastly, since the upgrades were done with the goal of attracting revenue from international events (tournaments, friendlies, qualifiers, etc), if the Argos' use of the facility results in lost revenue (ie. a scheduling conflict that send a game elsewhere) who is compensated? The FIFA event generated over $900k for the City. I'd hate to think that a regular season game vs Winnipeg would trump a chance to contribute money to the City's coffers.

[Bars92]

let them play in a shortened field, in a stadium with red seats. they will be the laughing stock of the CFL and big-time second fiddle to TFC.

[Bars92]

The problem is that no one can justify building a brand new stadium solely to house the Argos. Therefore they are forced to latch on to other teams facilities. In the city of Toronto no owner can justify charging high ticket prices for CFL football, so they will always lose money on an ambitious stadium project, unless its with one of the universities who using the same field configuration. But university football is not that big in Toronto and the Argos missed out on their chance years ago.

[Hitcho]

RB Leaders - anything on a united, planned response or course of action yet? Iron hot. Strike time. Etc. ;)

[Strikers]

This rumour has gotten out of hand here on the forums. There is no way that the Argo ownership is really prepared to make the move to BMO field. This is just a diversion a smoke screen. All forms of government voted and agreed to put a grass surface at BMO field guranteeing that the only sport that could be played at our National Soccer Stadium would be in fact just soccer. So these so called councillors really have no pull in the matter of getting the argos to move into the SSS that is BMO field because a few months earlier they already sealed the fate of BMO.

The Argos owners are looking to sell the team because Rogers now wants them to pay something for the use of the Rogers Centre. The Argos are a mess right now and throwing the idea of moving to BMO again is hiding the fact that real changes need to be made at the ownership level.

[reggie]

they are just hiding the fact that they stink....
argoNOT in our stadium
keep your cynamon BUNS out of our seats...bush league fuckers

[Yohan]

Is there enough room at Downsview for a stadium that could seat 80,000 for NFL games and be easily converted to sit 25,000 for CFL games - some kind of upper bowl that could be closed?

Because Toronto i he 4th or 5th largest metro area in North America and the NFL is the #1 sport and it seems inevitable it'll be here.

Toronto could use a pure foootball stadium for NFL, CFL, university, high school, pee wee, whatever.
lol. Downsview used to be CFB Toronto. air force base that could base fighter jets.

I'm sure there's enough room to be found ;)

[Hitcho]

Guys, this is senseless. Argo fans and TFC fans are on the same page here. If we want to stop this from happening (and I think we all do, albeit for different reasons) then we may need to work together.

If it ever comes to a protest, then a big group of half blue and half red will carry a lot more sway than just red. And frankly, argos fans will likely have more say and influence over this than we will. We need their support.

So stop getting prickly with the argos fans. We can piss on on another's respoective sports after this is all sorted out. For now, mutual respect and useful collaboration is what is needed. Their input is valuable - deal with it.

Argos fans - I really think a passionate response from any organised groups you have would carry a lot of weight right now. If the argos owners think they will lose thousands of tickets per game (ie, get well below the 20k capacity they would be limited to at BMO Field anyway) then they'll rethink this crazy scheme.

Money talks. Make it talk loud and blue...

[Pookie]

What bugs me more than the Argos ownership is that some City Council members are apparently actively exploring this just weeks after they approved a plan that would see BMO truly become Canada's National Soccer Stadium.

They bought into the idea of natural grass and the events that it could attract. They were moved enough by the revenue projections that come with big events to vote yes on the proposition.

Now an idea comes along to get roughly 9 home dates (face it, what Toronto team actually makes a playoff) and risk all of that potential revenue through scheduling conflicts, field repairs and altered atmosphere .... and they open their doors???

BMO reportedly generated 900k for the city in 2007, largely on the back of the FIFA U20 tournament. With 11 games played at BMO, How much revenue, per game are they expecting the Argos to produce?

Let's talk about economic impact too. CBC reported that the event generated $259.02 million in economic activity throughout the four host provinces. As well, 1,700 jobs were created for the tournament.

Let's look at one off events such as the Real Madrid game. By various reports, it supposedly injected over $10M into the City's economy. New business. Stuff we didn't have before.


In short, some "leaders" within our city government, just weeks after voting to go for a Soccer focus at BMO are willing to risk millions in potential new revenue for the sake of moving 9 (CFL) football games a few kilometers down the road???

There will be no increased economic activity as a result of the Argo games. Their Fans already spend money in the city on game days.

That folks, is where the anger should be.

[Strikers]

The problem with the Argos is that the ownership is so undecided. The dropped out of the university of York project because of location. I agree, YU is so out of the way. They also had a chance to team up with U of T but again they dropped out. U of T built there own facility at the old Varsity Stadium location. The Argos are now in a hole. The only way the will move out of the Rogers Centre is to pay for a facilty themselves. Either going back to YU, or U of T and saying we will pay for a new facility. No way the city, province, or fedreal government will help. It will be up the owners of the Argos whoever they may be to come up with the money needed for a new facility.

[Bars92]

City councillors that 'champion' the Argos move to BMO is pure spur of the moment political posturing. They are not considering or even thinking about the bad economics involved with such a move.

[AL-MO]

What bugs me more than the Argos ownership is that some City Council members are apparently actively exploring this just weeks after they approved a plan that would see BMO truly become Canada's National Soccer Stadium.



They're politicians, what the fuck do you expect?

[massive_magpie]

please, please, please... I beg all of you to teek from making blanket 'fuck the argos' statements.
My problem isn't with the team, and it certainly isn't with the fans, it's with the bullshit negotiating
tactics that their ownership seems to do every few years.

Your argument is TOO logical (as ridiculous as that sounds); anybody/organization/group that threatens my home does not deserve the respect of a proper discussion.

Just as 'TFC' represents our owners, our team and us supporters, so should the 'Argos' in this case. They're collectively standing up for their team as much as we're standing up for ours. They're collectively responsible for their teams actions as much as we are. If they've let their owners fuck their team over, that's their fault, I won't let mine fuck my team over.

I'd rather prove my point here with a flare and a protest than with an arbitrator. If (as most of us predict) this is just a ploy, then we're cool, I've got nothing against the Argos or their sport. Otherwise, :flare:

[billyfly]

it's funny how people are making this into a fan-vs-fan argument (not the original poster, but the comment from the argos board).

Moving to BMO field is got good for Argos fans either


The Argos deserve their own stadium, just as TFC deserves theirs -- but not the same one.




please, please, please... I beg all of you to teek from making blanket 'fuck the argos' statements.
My problem isn't with the team, and it certainly isn't with the fans, it's with the bullshit negotiating
tactics that their ownership seems to do every few years.


Totally agree. I just want a SSS. I don't hate the Argos. This is not a battle of jagoffs.

[Pookie]

They're politicians, what the fuck do you expect?

... nothing of them.

But I would expect/hope that some of the journalists that frequent these boards would pick up on that theme and run with a public economic argument that sways public opinion against the efforts of Mark Grimes (and others).

It is fruitless for Argo and TFC fans to go at each other over the merits of their respective sports.

A soccer specific stadium is good business for the city. We should all be united around that.

Moving the Argos produces no real net tangible economic benefit and risks millions. We know it's stupid. I think if expressed that way, the public would too.

[GhostKiller]

please, please, please... I beg all of you to teek from making blanket 'fuck the argos' statements.
My problem isn't with the team, and it certainly isn't with the fans, it's with the bullshit negotiating
tactics that their ownership seems to do every few years.

Its not so much a blanket "fuck the Argos" statement, its more a fuck Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon statement. Also fuck people who play both sides of the fence. :dita:

[Cashcleaner]

What do argo fans think about the potential reduction in end zone size to accomodate BMO field? Doesn't that diminish the credibility of the league? For such a percise game to just willy nilly say "well, let's just have 10 yard end zones" seems pretty crazy to me.

Although I will say - the 15 yard end zone is stupid.

Let's understand that the CFL is more of a throwing game compared to the NFL, therefore more touchdown passes will be made and a larger endzone is neccesary to keep things less crowded and safer for the receivers.

[Pookie]

This rumour has gotten out of hand here on the forums. There is no way that the Argo ownership is really prepared to make the move to BMO field. This is just a diversion a smoke screen. All forms of government voted and agreed to put a grass surface at BMO field guranteeing that the only sport that could be played at our National Soccer Stadium would be in fact just soccer. So these so called councillors really have no pull in the matter of getting the argos to move into the SSS that is BMO field because a few months earlier they already sealed the fate of BMO.

The Argos owners are looking to sell the team because Rogers now wants them to pay something for the use of the Rogers Centre. The Argos are a mess right now and throwing the idea of moving to BMO again is hiding the fact that real changes need to be made at the ownership level.

Practically speaking, you are correct and I find it hard to think it would happen.

But the legalities are in place. The original deal has a provision to allow for expansion to 30,000 seats and include professional football.

When the provision to bring in grass was being voted on it included:


Be it resolved that there is no intent that amendments proposed in the above- noted report will amend or have any effect on the terms and additions set out in either the Management Agreement and Team Licence and User Agreement that provide for the opportunity to expand the Soccer Stadium (BMO Field) to allow for professional football at the Stadium; and
Be it further resolved that section 5(d) of the LOI be revised to include a provision to allow the City to, at its sole option, include in its review the potential use of Allan Lamport Stadium as a site for professional football, subject to satisfying any requirements for continuing community use.


http://www.explace.on.ca/database/rte/number15BMO%20Field%20-%20Upgrade%20to%20Grass%20Field%20Final.pdf

so... hopefully, they go to Lamport :)

[Pookie]

This is what I emailed:

Councillor Grimes

It is my understanding that you recently voted in favour of the proposal to install a natural grass surface at BMO Field. This proposal was supported by a number of economic arguments that undoubtably have placed the City in a favourable economic position with respect to future opportunities resulting from soccer events.

I understand from sources such as the CBC that in 2007, when Toronto co-hosted the FIFA U20 Tournament, it generated $259.02 million in economic activity throughout the four host provinces. As well, 1,700 jobs were created for the tournament.

I've also read that the Real Madrid exhibition game vs Toronto FC, held this year, generated over $10M in local investment.

I would imagine that the revenue and prestige generated from events such as these were what was envisioned when you voted in favour of the motion to convert BMO Field to natural grass.

Councillor Grimes, I am having trouble understanding why you would push for the Argos to move to BMO Field.

I get that the atmosphere in Montreal vs the Rogers Centre may be different. But I also know that the Argos draw roughly 28,000 fans per game. BMO Field as you know, has a capacity for just 20,000.

While stadium expansion could increase that number, how do you propose both sports co-exist on the new surface without jeopardizing the proposed soccer events that earned your vote just a few weeks ago?

The economic benefit to moving the Argos down the road would appear to be neglible. In fact, without expansion, they may generate less in terms of parking and tax revenue for the city as 8,000 fewer attendees would be on hand.

Further, the idea that fans would pump money into the local economy is simply misleading. They are already spending their money on businesses around the Rogers Centre. This is a revenue neutral proposition.

If the Argos do in fact move to BMO, you introduce a very real risk to the opportunities afforded by the soccer investment. Scheduling conflicts, field repairs and altered atmosphere could conceivably result in cancelled or missed opportunities.

Perhaps as Chair of the Argos Foundation, you are using BMO as a negotiating point in order to secure a better deal with Rogers or generate talk of a (CFL) Football Specific Stadium at some other location.

If you are seriously considering BMO as a realistic move, I'd welcome your thoughts on the above issues I've highlighted.

Regards,

Paul

[Jarrek]

I live in his ward, he won't be getting my vote that's for sure.

[Redcoe15]

Guys, this is senseless. Argo fans and TFC fans are on the same page here. If we want to stop this from happening (and I think we all do, albeit for different reasons) then we may need to work together.

If it ever comes to a protest, then a big group of half blue and half red will carry a lot more sway than just red. And frankly, argos fans will likely have more say and influence over this than we will. We need their support.

So stop getting prickly with the argos fans. We can piss on on another's respoective sports after this is all sorted out. For now, mutual respect and useful collaboration is what is needed. Their input is valuable - deal with it.

Argos fans - I really think a passionate response from any organised groups you have would carry a lot of weight right now. If the argos owners think they will lose thousands of tickets per game (ie, get well below the 20k capacity they would be limited to at BMO Field anyway) then they'll rethink this crazy scheme.

Money talks. Make it talk loud and blue...
Agree. When I first heard of the news, I was furious that those two Argo owners would try again to worm their way into BMO Field, especially since work has now started to remove the plastic shit used for the past three years in favour of real grass.

But after sleeping on it, I've started to think that the only people who would be more furious about this move, than us TFC faithful, would be the fans of the Argonauts as they would have to watch their team play on a reduced field that would look more in line with American football. CFL fans are very fanatical about how the game is played, and this move would be seen to them as a slap in the face and a kick in the ballsack. And how would that play out across the rest of the country, where the game is more popular outside Southern Ontario?

This seems to me one of these time where fans of both sets of football could come together and tell Cynamon and Sokolowski that their plan is full of shit.

[Wagner]

CFL endzones are 20yds not 15.

[Menelaos]

Very nice email Paul.

[nascarguy]

the city does not listin to there fans they only listin to the money coming in from them. Maybe the money if the money stop then they would listin.

we got the whole offseason to plan something

[mlsintoronto]

I think perhaps cyn and sok are proposing use of the lesser known but equally effective "adapted imperial measure" in which a yard is 28 inches. Kind of like celsius. :)

[greatwhitenorf]

Let's say they get in. Against the wishes of soccer fans.

Opening day for the Argos at BMO Field.

All you'd need are a couple of hundred cars driven by soccer fans at the CNE, just slowly driving aimlessly around, tying up traffic, blocking access to parking, making the day one big misery.

And the promise of creating this anarchy every game.

No violence needed. No harsh language. Just four wheels and an attitude.

[rocker]

Be it resolved that there is no intent that amendments proposed in the above- noted report will amend or have any effect on the terms and additions set out in either the Management Agreement and Team Licence and User Agreement that provide for the opportunity to expand the Soccer Stadium (BMO Field) to allow for professional football at the Stadium; and
Be it further resolved that section 5(d) of the LOI be revised to include a provision to allow the City to, at its sole option, include in its review the potential use of Allan Lamport Stadium as a site for professional football, subject to satisfying any requirements for continuing community use.



http://www.explace.on.ca/database/rte/number15BMO%20Field%20-%20Upgrade%20to%20Grass%20Field%20Final.pdf

so... hopefully, they go to Lamport :)

professional football??? wait, the toronto football club is already playing at BMO Field!!! ;)

the contract has been satisfied then :) this other football club? i dunno em

[Blazer]

I used to think it would be a good idea for the Argos to move to BMO. I've since changed my mind. I should note, however, that this change has nothing to do with the ignorant and offensive comments made by some posters in this forum about great Canadian institutions like the Canadian Football League and the Toronto Argonauts.

When BMO was still slated to have fieldturf, I believed (and still do) that the stadium could be expanded, the endzone seating made retractable, and the gridiron lines could be removed, without any adverse impacts on the TFC in-game experience. In fact, the experience would be enhanced due to increased seating. Since that time, the Argos at BMO talk died down and MLSE got approval to replace the fieldturf with natural turf. Twenty-four cleated football players pushing each other around on natural grass for four hours would make a grass pitch unusable for soccer. Opinions of soccer aside, that's unfair to TFC.

Throw into the mix the fact that David and Howard (I'm a season ticket holder, I think we're on a first-name basis) want to use the stadium WITHOUT making the stands movable for CFL games, and I start to get nervous. I don't think it would ever feel like our home stadium if we were shoehorned into a soccer field.

All that said, I don’t think Rogers Centre should be the long-term home of the Argos either. There’s such a huge opportunity at Downsview. That place is going to have its own subway station soon, and will be sandwiched between two planned LRT lines. There will be easy access from all of Toronto, plus Durham, York, and Peel regions. It’s very close (one subway stop away) from York University, who’ve been looking to improve the facilities for their sports teams.

There’s enough room at Downsview for a 25-27k seat football stadium, with a reduced configuration for NASL soccer (division 2 soccer, just starting up), CIS football, and CIS soccer. There’s also enough room for a sizable commercial, entertainment, and leisure area.

Finally, the NHL seems closer than ever to putting a second franchise in the GTA. In addition to the stadium and entertainment area, there’s also room for an NHL-calibre arena. An investment group boasting a year-round sports and entertainment district, plus potential synergies in sporting and events marketing, would be the frontrunner for a franchise.

The fact that York University would benefit from the project, and the successful Pan Am bid and prospective Womens’ World Cup of Soccer bid could open the door to some public money. A legitimate first shot at NHL ownership could bring forward interested private sector investors, in addition to David and Howard. If all this went ahead, Downsview could become the home of CFL football, NHL hockey, NASL soccer, and CIS football and soccer (mens and womens). Three professional and three amateur teams, using the place year-round and playing to packed houses from across the GTA.

So in summary, I don’t think the Argonauts should bother moving to BMO. A move without a significant expansion would be too much compromise on the great Canadian game, and football on natural grass would kill the turf. Better to ride out a few more years at the Rogers Centre while planning for a permanent home at Downsview.

Great post pal! Well done!

[Sullivan]

I'm not reading 15 pages, so if this has already been posted, sorry!
This one is short and sweet.

If you live in Toronto, email your councillor with a short simple message:
Support the Argos at BMO and I vote against you next election and
I actively ask, engage, recruit in soliciting others to also not vote for you!

councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca
councillor_ashton@toronto.ca
councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca
councillor_bussin@toronto.ca
councillor_carrol@toronto.ca
councillor_cho@toronto.ca
councillor_davis@toronto.ca
councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca
councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca
councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca
councillor_feldman@toronto.ca
councillor_felion@toronto.ca
councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca
councillor_ford@toronto.ca
councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca
councillor_grimes@toronto.ca
councillor_hall@toronto.ca
councillor_heaps@toronto.ca
councillor_holyday@toronto.ca
councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca
councillor_kelly@toronto.ca
councillor_lee@toronto.ca
councillor_lindsay@toronto.ca
councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca
councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca
councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca
councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca
councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca
councillor_moeser@toronto.ca
councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca
councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca
councillor_ootes@toronto.ca
councillor_palacio@toronto.ca
councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca
councillor_parker@toronto.ca
councillor_perks@toronto.ca
councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca
councillor_rae@toronto.ca
councillor_saundercock@toronto.ca
councillor_shiner@toronto.ca
councillor_stintz@toronto.ca
councillor_thompson@toronto.ca
councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca
councillor_walker@toronto.ca

http://www.toronto.ca/city_directory/pdf/divisions/council_offices.pdf

Now in my case, I don't live in Toronto. But that won't stop me from
emailing each of the aforementioned councillors and advising them that if
they support the Argos move into BMO, they shouldn't expect my support/vote in the next or any election thereafter.
Same to be said for any support from my family and/or friends.

Finally,
Establish TFC's supporters ability to mobilize and take action.
Target Mark Grimes. Councillor Ward 6, Lakeshore Etobicoke.
He also happens to be the Chair the the Argos Foundation.
Make an example of him in 2010's election. Vote him out!

It doesn't take much effort or creativity to establish residency and to be able to vote in a municipal election.

Send a clear message - NO CFL @ BMO!!!

It then becomes a matter of which councillor wants to risk a well paying
job to support a pair of millionaires who have run their club into the
ground because they won't spend their own money.

[Pyeddo]

What bugs me more than the Argos ownership is that some City Council members are apparently actively exploring this just weeks after they approved a plan that would see BMO truly become Canada's National Soccer Stadium.


The main name everyone is not saying here is Joe Pantalone. The same man that as deputy mayor has kiaboshed development on lower Ossington and created furor by pushing through the St. Clair right of way street car development.

He also, as the chairman of the board of governors at exhibition place, has also recently been questioned over his somewhat shady insider dealings with the upcoming exhibition place conference center development.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/717221--contract-goes-to-insider


Be wary folks... this man has an uncanny way of getting what he wants.

[ilikemusic]

I would love for the Argos to play in an intimate, 25K seat, outdoor stadium, but as with anything worth doing, it needs to be done right.

Get on board with a University and build a Canadian football specific stadium somewhere in the city.

There is a reason Montreal's stadium has been so successful and it isnt because they shoehorned themselves into a stadium that was never designed for their sport.

This is why the Argos are the worst franchise in the CFL, both on and off the field. Their bumbling front office who's only talent seems to be killing Canadian football in the nation's biggest market.

[Roogsy]

I hope they have to dish out $30mill and wind up going bankrupt.

[ilikemusic]

I hope they have to dish out $30mill and wind up going bankrupt.

I dont necessarily agree, but I understand the animosity. Cynamon and Sokalowski just seem like complete sleaze bags.

I would love to enjoy the Argos, but the team coupled with the fan experience at the Dome is just such a turn off (not that I ever payed alot of attention when they were winning).

[Roogsy]

The city's revenue sharing agreement with MLSE is far more lucrative than a lease deal with another team would be. MLSE has to be serious about imparting on council how significant a blow this would be to its business model, as they'd lose hardcore fans in droves with football lines on the pitch.

That's not serious soccer and no one will take it as such. The entire TFC "buy in" that has created this fan-based atmosphere in MLS is predicated on being able to take a version of the pro sport here seriously for the first time.


BEST POST IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD

[bgnewf]

The Argos owners are a couple of snakes in the grass looking to do everything on the cheap.

And as others have already said ad infinitum already the CFL has already had its chance on more than one occasion. York University, Varsity and now BMO. Simply put they cannot be trusted.

If anyone saw Wigan's pitch last season (they share their ground with a rugby side) you will see how badly torn up a grass pitch will be when gridiron players play on it. Remember Edmonton in the Under 20's world cup? Their pitch was fucking destroyed by CFL players who did not play on it for weeks before the event.

The CSA should scream blue bloody murder on this and call shenanigans on the Argos and the CFL.

And every CFL apologist out there in the media needs to be called out. Toth, McCown, etc. need to have their assumptions challenged at every turn.

Finally can any CFL fans tell me if any CFL club plays on a non regulation field? Because if they do then this might have legs. If not there will have to be big time demolition of the ground to make CFL happen.



FUCK OFF ARGOS

[Roogsy]

Don't the Argos have any self-respect? They constantly brag about being one of the oldest professional sports teams in America and yet they are willing to play the ugly step-sister in a stadium that was never meant for them. Like forcing yourself to wear shoes that are two sizes too small, this team is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It's threatening to ruin TWO sports franchises with this boneheaded move.

Argo fans...have some self respect and demand a real solution by your ownership. Moving to BMO Field isn't just bad for us soccer fans, it's also bad for you CFL fans. You will be the laughing stock of the CFL. While the other teams play in stadiums designed for them, the Argos want to play in a stadium that was meant for an entirely different sport. It's like showing up to the prom in a speedo and tank-top.

What a legacy for the oldest sports team in Canada. How can anyone take them seriously?

[Bloor West FC]

Seriously if anybody puts CFL football in BMO we can kiss a nice field goodbye. Any real chance of a real Footy stadium atmosphere goodbye. This country needs this stadium to be specific to soccer and many more to be made if we are to get better at this sport. CFL is not making any money and wont. I wish it did and they had there own stadium but it wont happen. But don't threaten to come into our house! Because the door is closed and the key is at the bottom of Lake Ontario!!!!

[Pookie]

The latest:

CFL Plans to study potential Argo move to BMO Field

CALGARY -- Canadian Football League governors are taking a cautious first step with plans to relocate the Toronto Argonauts to a soccer-specific stadium, dispatching staff to study how the team could squeeze into BMO Field, amid grumbling from some of the facility's existing stakeholders.

The decision did not include a vote on whether governors thought the move, proposed by Argos co-owners David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski, would be a good idea. They met in Calgary on Saturday morning, as festivities reached a crescendo leading up to the 97th Grey Cup on Sunday.

"The Canadian Football League board of governors instructed the league office to work with the Toronto Argonauts to provide a detailed report on the feasibility of the city of Toronto's BMO Field for CFL football," commissioner Mark Cohon said in a release. "The board was assured this work will be undertaken as quickly as possible."

There are a number of questions about the stadium's suitability for football. The footprint for the field is too small for the CFL, and dressing rooms were designed for soccer teams, which carry fewer players and less equipment than a professional football team.

Toronto FC has made BMO Field its home for three seasons. The stadium seats 20,000, less than half the capacity of Rogers Centre, which has been home to the Argos for two decades.

"We would have great difficulty with it for numerous reasons," Peter Montopoli, general secretary of the Canadian Soccer Association, said on Saturday.

Scheduling during the busy summer period would be a problem, he said, with the Argos, Toronto FC and amateur soccer competing for time. And then there is the field itself, which is being converted to natural grass, at a cost of about $5-million.

"The playing surface for the sport of soccer is really critical, and now that it's gone to grass, it's even more critical," Montopoli said. "You just can't be using it for anything and everything anymore, because the sport of soccer relies on the turf itself for play-ability. And bringing in Canadian football – as much as it's a great sport – it just damages the field."

Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment owns Toronto FC and manages BMO Field, but all negotiations with the Argos would be handled by the city.

"I've heard things like they're talking about playing on a 100-yard field with 15-yard end zones," MLSE chief operating officer Tom Anselmi said. "I've heard they're talking 110 yards, with 10-yard end zones. That is for them, for the CFL to decide if it is prepared to make that compromise. Or else, you've got to look at re-configuring the building, and that will take some time and some money."

A regulation CFL field is 65 yards wide and 110 yards long. The CFL's rule book already appears to make an exception for smaller playing surfaces: "If the regulation length of a field is not available because of a fence, a running track or any other object, a clear line of demarcation shall be established at least one foot toward the playing surface from such fence, track or object."

All three levels of government funded BMO Field's construction, along with contributions from MLSE. The city of Toronto owns the stadium.

CFL governors did not set a deadline for delivery of the report, and are still waiting final word from Cynamon and Sokolowski about their future as owners. Both Toronto-based businessmen have been weighing their options amid speculation they would sell the team to B.C. Lions owner David Braley.

"I don't know if we have any chance [of stopping a relocation]," Montopoli said. "But I would want our voices to be heard and see the terms and conditions according to the agreement that we've all signed for the national soccer stadium, or BMO Field, however you'd like to refer to it."

The Globe, 20 mins ago (http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=2281193)

[Pookie]

It's Joey Pantload as well.

Completely right about that. This is what Joe had to say in the Star:

Two things need to happen, Pantalone said, for a move to happen. First, the CFL would have to agree to the Argos playing on a shorter field because "otherwise you're talking about expenditures of many many millions" to tear up stands and lengthen the playing surface. And, the team would also have to agree to the same "terms and conditions" as TFC such as the share of revenues for parking and food and beverage as well as agreeing to access for public use.

"We cannot give the Argos a better deal than we give to MLSE," Pantalone said in an interview.

"If those two things are there, then I think it's easy to reach a deal," he said.

"We are prepared to welcome them if they want to come on that reasonable basis," Pantalone said. "But it's not up to us. We're not the CFL.

"Those issues are completely out of Exhibition Place's and the city's control. They are within control of the CFL and the Argo ownership."

[Bloor West FC]

Ship them to Ottawa :)

[TFCRegina]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/story/2009/11/28/sp-argos-bmo.html

Raise a big stink on cbc :P

[TFCRegina]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/story/2009/11/28/sp-argos-bmo.html

Another place to raise a big stink.

[TFC07]

Don't the Argos have any self-respect? They constantly brag about being one of the oldest professional sports teams in America and yet they are willing to play the ugly step-sister in a stadium that was never meant for them. Like forcing yourself to wear shoes that are two sizes too small, this team is trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It's threatening to ruin TWO sports franchises with this boneheaded move.

Argo fans...have some self respect and demand a real solution by your ownership. Moving to BMO Field isn't just bad for us soccer fans, it's also bad for you CFL fans. You will be the laughing stock of the CFL. While the other teams play in stadiums designed for them, the Argos want to play in a stadium that was meant for an entirely different sport. It's like showing up to the prom in a speedo and tank-top.

What a legacy for the oldest sports team in Canada. How can anyone take them seriously?

Great point. It just shows how important the Argos really are in Toronto. Too bad we got couple of politicians with their hidden agenda that actually have enough power/influence to make this happen.

I just hope MLSE has a back up plan if the Argos end up moving to BMO field because this is going to kill soccer/TFC unless someone is willing to build a new SSS somewhere in GTA.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

A regulation CFL field is 65 yards wide and 110 yards long. The CFL's rule book already appears to make an exception for smaller playing surfaces: "If the regulation length of a field is not available because of a fence, a running track or any other object, a clear line of demarcation shall be established at least one foot toward the playing surface from such fence, track or object.The CFL may be flexible with its field dimensions, but just by browsing the web it is plain to see that all existing CFL fields are 110 x 65. The only minor exceptions to this rule are Commonwealth Stadium and Molson stadium, in which the corners of the end zones are tapered because of the presence of a running track. If the Argos played at BMO, they'd be the only team playing on a field that, for all intents and purposes, is smaller than normal. To me, gridiron at BMO makes about as much sense as having one NHL rink that is only 150 feet long.

[VPjr]

For those of you who do live in Toronto, here is an example of the type of message that needs to be emailed to Mayor Miller, Deputy Mayor Pantalone and the local councillor:


Dear Mr/Mrs/Ms XXXXXX,

It has been widely reported that the Toronto Argonauts Football Club has approached the City of Toronto and the Exhibition Place Board of Governors in regards to their desire to relocate their team from Rogers Centre to BMO Field.

As a taxpayer in the City of Toronto and an ardent soccer supporter, I find this news distressing. BMO Field was originally conceived as a Soccer Specific Stadium and is commonly referred to as Canada's National Soccer Stadium. It should remain as such.

Soccer is Canada's, Ontario's and Toronto's largest participation sport by a wide margin and yet it is highly underserviced by the City of Toronto. There are not nearly enough soccer facilities as it is to support the enormous demand to play the sport. To take away more dates from the large and growing Toronto soccer community by allowing the Argonauts to play home games at BMO Field would be a poor decision and would be perceived by soccer lovers as a slap in the face.

Considering that Municipal Elections will take place next fall, it would be a very unwise decision to permit the Argonauts to relocate to BMO Field. Such a decision would be a very short sighted move by the City of Toronto. The potential backlash from soccer supporters would be overwhelming. Is it all really worth it? Furthermore, allowing the Argos to fill dates at our National Soccer Stadium would effectively tie the hands of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment and the Canadian Soccer Association from hosting additional soccer related events (in addition to Toronto FC home matches), so the net benefit to the City of Toronto would be negligible.

I urge you to make the right decision. Say NO to the Argonauts at BMO Field. They have a wonderful home at the Rogers Centre and they should stay there and allow the BMO Field (with its $3 million natural grass surface) to remain a Soccer Specific Stadium in perpetuity. If the Argonauts do move into BMO Field, I personally will hold you responsible and you can be sure that I will vote against you in the next round of municipal elections.

Best Regards

XXXXXXX



This is just a suggestion. Go ahead and write whatever you wish. However, please be sure to write something if you are a city of Toronto resident.

Be sure to send the email to your councillor, copying the Mayor and Deputy Mayor and all the other councillors. Feel free to copy all the people from the Argos as well whose emails are noted in a previous post.

Toronto residents...don't sit on the fence. Send it right away.

here are the email addresses so you don't have to look for it:

David Miller - mayor_miller@toronto.ca (mayor_miller@toronto.ca)

Ward 1 (Etobicoke North) Suzan Hall - councillor_hall@toronto.ca (councillor_hall@toronto.ca)
Ward 2 (Etobicoke North) Rob Ford - councillor_ford@toronto.ca (councillor_ford@toronto.ca)
Ward 3 (Etobicoke Centre) Doug Holyday councillor_holyday@toronto.ca (councillor_holyday@toronto.ca)
Ward 4 (Etobicok Centre) Gloria Lindsay Luby - councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca (councillor_lindsay_luby@toronto.ca)
Ward 5 (Etobicoke-Lakeshore) Peter Milczyn - councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca (councillor_milczyn@toronto.ca)
Ward 6 (Etobicoke-Lakeshore) Mark Grimes - councillor_grimes@toronto.ca (councillor_grimes@toronto.ca)
Ward 7 (York West) Giorgio Mammoliti - councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca (councillor_mammoliti@toronto.ca)
Ward 8 (York West) Anthony Perruzza - councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca (councillor_perruzza@toronto.ca)
Ward 9 (York Centre) Maria Augimeri - councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca (councillor_augimeri@toronto.ca)
Ward 10 (York Centre) Mike Feldman - councillor_feldman@toronto.ca (councillor_feldman@toronto.ca)
Ward 11 (York South-Weston) Frances Nunziata - councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca (councillor_nunziata@toronto.ca)
Ward 12 (York South-Weston) Frank Di Giorgio - councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca (councillor_digiorgio@toronto.ca)
Ward 13 (Parkdale - High Park) - Bill Saundercook - councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca (councillor_saundercook@toronto.ca)
Ward 14 (Parkdale - High Park) Gord Perks - councillor_perks@toronto.ca (councillor_perks@toronto.ca)
Ward 15 (Eglinton-Lawrence) Howard Moscoe - councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca (councillor_moscoe@toronto.ca)
Ward 16 (Eglinton-Lawrence) Karen Stintz - councillor_stintz@toronto.ca (councillor_stintz@toronto.ca)
Ward 17 (Davenport) Cesar Palacio - councillor_palacio@toronto.ca (councillor_palacio@toronto.ca)
Ward 18 (Davenport) Adam Giambrone - councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca (councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca)
Ward 19 (Trinity Spadina) Joe Pantalone - councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca (councillor_pantalone@toronto.ca) (DEPUTY MAYOR)
Ward 20 (Trinity Spadina) Adam Vaughn - councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca (councillor_vaughan@toronto.ca)
Ward 21 (St. Paul's) Joe Mihevc - councillor_mivehc@toronto.ca (councillor_mivehc@toronto.ca)
Ward 22 (St. Paul's) Michael Walker - councillor_walker@toronto.ca (councillor_walker@toronto.ca)
Ward 23 (Willowdale) John Filion - councillor_filion@toronto.ca (councillor_filion@toronto.ca)
Ward 24 (Willowdale) - David Shiner - councillor_shiner@toronto.ca (councillor_shiner@toronto.ca)
Ward 25 (Don Valley West) Cliff Jenkins - councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca (councillor_jenkins@toronto.ca)
Ward 26 (Don Valley West) John Parker - councillor_parker@toronto.ca (councillor_parker@toronto.ca)
Ward 27 (Toronto Centre Rosedale) Kyle Rae - councillor_rae@toronto.ca (councillor_rae@toronto.ca)
Ward 28 (Toronto Centre Rosedale) Pam McConnell - councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca (councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca)
Ward 29 (Toronto-Danforth) Case Ootes - councillor_ootes@toronto.ca (councillor_ootes@toronto.ca)
Ward 30 (Toronto Danforth) Paula Fletcher - councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca (councillor_fletcher@toronto.ca)
Ward 31 (Beaches - East York) Janet Davis - councillor_davis@toronto.ca (councillor_davis@toronto.ca)
Ward 32 (Beaches - East York) Sandra Bussin - councillor_bussin@toronto.ca (councillor_bussin@toronto.ca)
Ward 33 (Don Valley East) Shelley Carroll - councillor_carroll@toronto.ca (councillor_carroll@toronto.ca)
Ward 34 (Don Valley East) Denzil Minnan-Wong - councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca (councillor_minnan-wong@toronto.ca)
Ward 35 (Scarborough Southwest) Adrian Heaps - councillor_heaps@toronto.ca (councillor_heaps@toronto.ca)
Ward 36 (Scarborough Southwest) Brian Ashton - councillor_ashton@toronto.ca (councillor_ashton@toronto.ca)
Ward 37 (Scarborough Centre) Michael Thompson - councillor_thompson@toronto.ca (councillor_thompson@toronto.ca)
Ward 38 (Scarborough Centre) Glenn De Baeremaeker - councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca (councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca)
Ward 39 (Scarborough Agincourt) Mike Del Grande - councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca (councillor_delgrande@toronto.ca)
Ward 40 (Scarborough Agincourt) Norm Kelly - councillor_kelly@toronto.ca (councillor_kelly@toronto.ca)
Ward 41 (Scarborough Rouge River) Chin Lee - councillor_lee@toronto.ca (councillor_lee@toronto.ca)
Ward 42 (Scarborough - Rouge River) Raymond Cho - councillor_cho@toronto.ca (councillor_cho@toronto.ca)
Ward 43 (Scarborough East) Paul Ainslie - councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca (councillor_ainslie@toronto.ca)
Ward 44 (Scarborough East) Ron Moeser - councillor_moeser@toronto.ca (councillor_moeser@toronto.ca)


If you don't know what ward you are in, use this link to figure it out:

http://app.toronto.ca/wards/jsp/wards.jsp (http://app.toronto.ca/wards/jsp/wards.jsp)


EDIT: just noticed that Sullivan posted all those email addresses as well...good work man. regardless people, send out those emails...do it right away

[T0R0NT0 FC]

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

EMAIL SENT!!!!

Counsillor Grimes,

The atmosphere and support that Toronto FC receives at BMO Field is because as supporter's, we are passionate about soccer and Toronto FC. Any illusion that you or any of the Argos organization has that that amount of support would be mirrored if the Argos were to play at BMO Field is extremely misguided.

After three seasons on field turf, MLSE has just spent 3.5 million dollars to install a Premier League quality pitch and 2.0 million dollars to move the bubble and build another field turf pitch in Etobicoke. How anyone associated with the Argos organization would believe that MLSE or the Toronto FC supporter's would welcome the Argos to now play at BMO Field is out of touch reality. BMO Field cannot house both Toronto FC and the Argos, it would only take a few rainy Argos games and the pristine surface would be utterly destroyed.

If the Argos are considering a move, please note that Varsity Stadium or a new outdoor stadium around Downsview would be a perfect fit. However, as Toronto FC supporter's, we will do everything in our power to ensure that BMO Field (aka Canada's National Soccer Stadium) will remain home to only Toronto FC.

I wish you and the Argos organization the best of luck with renegotiating the Argos lease with the Roger's Centre.
Sincerely,

Jonn Martin

[jiforio]

Email sent. He won't be getting my vote either. Let our voices be heard, send him those emails.

[Cashcleaner]

Has the CFL said anything about this yet?

I can't see the league allowing the dimensions of the field to be changed so dramatically. The difference between a 15 yard end zone and a 10 yard end zone in huge - will the league really allow the credibility of their league to be damaged as such?

Also - The argos would run into the same problem in BMO that they ran into at Skydome regarding the seating. At the dome, the first 10 or 15 rows at field level have to be blocked out because fans fans see past the players on the sidelines. I would think that will the seats at BMO being so close to pitch level, the same problem would occur, reducing the capacity even further.

I'm trying to find the article, but the CFL commissioner wasn't particularly receptive toward the idea in general of the Argos going to BMO Field. The smaller playing surface was just one of many criticisms.

Right now they are going through a proper evaluation at the league.

[T.Reis]

Why Can't the Argo's just relocate to Halifax or something? or better yet why can't the Bills just show up to move the Argos out faster?

And why does all this bull-shit always happen after I've re-upped my TFC season tickets?

And why can't West Ham keep a clean sheet?

And what's the point of my wife buying bacon if it's just going to sit in the freezer?

And why do all CFL's fans outside of the GTA keep saying that we act as though we are the centre of the universe? we know we are not the centre of the universe!.....Just the centre of Canada!

[Torontotonto]

they touch our field in any way,im done has a season ticket holder

It's really funny how these news statements seem to come out after the SSH renewals are completed. We have all been waiting for grass since day one, we will not be renewing our seats for 2011 if the ARGO's move in.

Thank for the memories DANNY...

:flare::drum::scarf::drum::flare:

[James17930]

TEAM WITH CANADA RUGBY AND BUILD A STADIUM AT DOWNSVIEW.

I'm going to keep saying this in the hopes that I can will it to come true.

[Pookie]

I'm trying to find the article, but the CFL commissioner wasn't particularly receptive toward the idea in general of the Argos going to BMO Field. The smaller playing surface was just one of many criticisms.

Right now they are going through a proper evaluation at the league.

Don't forget that the Argos are pushing the league for revenue sharing.

I heard they average somewhere around 28,000 a game. Drop that down to 20,000 in 2010 IF they move to BMO. There is no way that they could expand the stadium in time for next season.

What's an average ticket to a game? $35?

8000 (fewer tickets) x 35 = a loss of $280,000 per game (not counting concession losses.

280,000 x 9 home dates = a loss of $2.52M

So, a team in financial trouble and that is begging the league to share money is actually going to make a move that will cost them $2.52M in revenue????

I'm sure that the other owners who would ultimately subsidize them, are going to be thrilled with that business plan.

[Blizzard]

What do argo fans think about the potential reduction in end zone size to accomodate BMO field? Doesn't that diminish the credibility of the league? For such a percise game to just willy nilly say "well, let's just have 10 yard end zones" seems pretty crazy to me.

Although I will say - the 15 yard end zone is stupid.

You are correct. A 15 yard end zone is stupid. That's why they are 20 yards deep in the CFL! ;)

Much better that way!

B

[Blizzard]

Is there enough room at Downsview for a stadium that could seat 80,000 for NFL games and be easily converted to sit 25,000 for CFL games - some kind of upper bowl that could be closed?

Because Toronto i he 4th or 5th largest metro area in North America and the NFL is the #1 sport and it seems inevitable it'll be here.

Toronto could use a pure foootball stadium for NFL, CFL, university, high school, pee wee, whatever.

NFL isn't going to want a field 30 yards longer than necessary. Think of the costs!

If a stadium is built for NFL, it will be built just large enough for NFL.

All other football i.e. Canadian football will be played somewhere else.

[Blizzard]

Has the CFL said anything about this yet?

I can't see the league allowing the dimensions of the field to be changed so dramatically. The difference between a 15 yard end zone and a 10 yard end zone in huge - will the league really allow the credibility of their league to be damaged as such?

Also - The argos would run into the same problem in BMO that they ran into at Skydome regarding the seating. At the dome, the first 10 or 15 rows at field level have to be blocked out because fans fans see past the players on the sidelines. I would think that will the seats at BMO being so close to pitch level, the same problem would occur, reducing the capacity even further.

Don't think so. The first row of seats at Skydome is only slightly above field level. Also, the rake of the seats is extremely shallow.

At BMO, the first row of seats is about three feet above field level and the rake of the stands is much steeper.

Imagine BMO with three more rows of seats at the front plus with much less angled stands. Then yes, there would be a big problem. Fortunately BMO designers did a nice job for us! :D

[Dirk Diggler]

Could this be a ploy by Cynamon and the other douche to force MLSE to purchase the Argos? It seems quite convinient that they suddenly decide to take the team off the market AND start the talk about moving into BMO Field concurrently. In this economy, I reckon no one was willing to purchase a constant money loser (Argos). I remember Bob McCown talking about how the Argos have essentially been operated over the past couple of decades through the constant buying and selling of the team. He concluded people are certainly beginning to catch up on this fact and no one is going to buy the team thinking they will turn a profit anytime soon.

[Redcoe15]

And every CFL apologist out there in the media needs to be called out. Toth, McCown, etc. need to have their assumptions challenged at every turn.
Toth just took a buyout from Rogers and is no longer working at either Sportsnet or The Fan 590.

And Bobo McClown is an arrogant prick who, given the chance, would see this as an opprotunity to kill Toronto FC, who he thumbs his nose at every chance he gets, and have his buddies, Cynamon and Sokolowski, move their precious Argos into BMO Field. He doesn't give a fucking shit what we soccer supporters think.

There aren't enough people in the media like Stephen Brunt or Jeff Blair who care about soccer who'll stand up with this issue. It's the soccer faithful who have to make the most noise, in a progressive manner.

[Redcoe15]

I'm not sure if this has been posted anywheres, but Sportsnet's Gerry Dobson has his say on the Argo's recent bully boy tactics. Which is "Stay where you belong!" (http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl/2009/11/27/dobson_argos_bmo/)

[Hustle]

Does anyone still have the contact at the Exhibition Place board of governors handy? I want to write her an email opposing the Argos just as I did when we were fighting for grass and I hope everyone else will do the same.

One thing is extremely important. This issue is already in the public eye. If you hear any radio call in shows or have the opportunity to criticize a news report in favour of moving the Argos in...Make SURE to speak up.....