Expansion Draft - Confirmed Protection Lists - Published?

[DOMIN8R]

I am a man of many contradictions and few sensibilities.

[pekduck]

So when Garber says it can't be done, that's total bullshit. MLS makes its own rules and there's no reason why they have to include a rule that says TFC must have X many Canadian players instead of X many Canadian OR American players.

actually, that's debatable, i'm following up on that at this point along with other stuff MLS should disclose...

if for full time employment, mls, must work with us immigration to prove that they could not hire domestic us citizens to do the work and have to hire foreign, then the hired player gets us working visa to play in the league

might have something to do with mls owns all the player's contracts..

not enough info at this point

[Lucky Strike]

Does anyone think that there is a good chance that no one from our team will be chosen?

Edwards has stiff competition from Onstad and Hartman
Too many risks moving forward with Guevara (attitude, surgery, WC, age, etc.)
Several footie blog pundits with draft mock ups have not included anyone from TFC.

Just a thought.

I think so as well. In terms of what I want to happen:

Worst: Edwards, Guevara or Fellinga is selected.
Middle: Either Gala is selected or no one is selected.
Best: One of Garcia, Gerba, Robinson or Vitti are selected.

[Hitcho]

MLS Official site lists complete list of available players for the draft by team, and for TFC it reads:

Toronto FC
Edwards, Brian
Fellinga, Lesly
Garcia, Nick
Gerba, Ali
Guevara, Amado
Robinson, Carl
Vitti, Pablo
Gala, Gabe

So I guess that finally rules out Frei with 100% certainty. Thank fuck for that.

Nothing on the MLS site yet about who Philly selected.

[Hitcho]

actually, that's debatable, i'm following up on that at this point along with other stuff MLS should disclose...

if for full time employment, mls, must work with us immigration to prove that they could not hire domestic us citizens to do the work and have to hire foreign, then the hired player gets us working visa to play in the league

might have something to do with mls owns all the player's contracts..

not enough info at this point

I don't really see what difference this makes, but maybe I just don;t understand it properly.

If people can "prove" that US or Canadian citizens cannot do the childcare work that nannies from overseas do all the time (same requirements to be filled from what I understand) then I'm damn sure MLS can give a good reason why they need a footballer wity specific skills, attributes, experience, etc to fill a particular position on a roster.

Unless MLS gives a justifiable and legally supportable reason for the roster designation split, then to me it will always smack of protecting US soccer and keeping Canadian teams under their own umbrella. Some might think that;s fair enoguh or even good for Canadian football and national team, but to me if you're going to charge teams 40m bucks to get in, then you should give them a fair and equal crack of the whip with all the other teams.

Otherwise, don't take the expansion fee. And don't take all our fucking money every game week to watch a team that's basically handicapped by bullshit political discrimination.

One league, one set of rules for all the teams playing in it.

[anonymiss]

Although the original time for the draft was scheduled for 1 pm. It now appears that several, including MLSnet, claim that it will be at 3pm.
Glad I wasn't the only one to notice that. I do like how when you look at the full-blown article it still says 1pm. Gotta love consistency... :)

[Hitcho]

Actually, the homepage says Nowak will DISCUSS THE PICKS live at 3pm. So that must mean it;s done before that. My guess is the list is already in and they're just pushing papers now until 3pm when the list will be revealed. More hits for the website and more ad money and pulling power for MLS that way.

Actual article still says 1pm for the draft, which would support this.

[scut farkus]

Although the original time for the draft was scheduled for 1 pm. It now appears that several, including MLSnet, claim that it will be at 3pm.

MLS Net still says that the draft will take place at 1pm. But it says that Peter Nowak (coach) will be on live at 3pm to discuss that draft. So we may not find out anything until 3pm.

[Nodoubtguy]

It says that Coach Nowak will be discussing picks at 3pm EST

[Lucky Strike]

Glad I wasn't the only one to notice that. I do like how when you look at the full-blown article it still says 1pm. Gotta love consistency... :)

It's says that Nowak will discuss the picks at 3pm but the picks are actually made at 1.

[rocker]

I don't really see what difference this makes, but maybe I just don;t understand it properly.

If people can "prove" that US or Canadian citizens cannot do the childcare work that nannies from overseas do all the time (same requirements to be filled from what I understand) then I'm damn sure MLS can give a good reason why they need a footballer wity specific skills, attributes, experience, etc to fill a particular position on a roster.

Unless MLS gives a justifiable and legally supportable reason for the roster designation split, then to me it will always smack of protecting US soccer and keeping Canadian teams under their own umbrella. Some might think that;s fair enoguh or even good for Canadian football and national team, but to me if you're going to charge teams 40m bucks to get in, then you should give them a fair and equal crack of the whip with all the other teams.

Otherwise, don't take the expansion fee. And don't take all our fucking money every game week to watch a team that's basically handicapped by bullshit political discrimination.

One league, one set of rules for all the teams playing in it.

As Garber clearly explained at the Supporters' Summit, Canadians can't be domestics on US teams because it's favouritism to one nationality over others.
Why shouldn't Mexicans be domestics too? Or Argentines? He said you cannot selectively discriminate against foreigners by law.

[anonymiss]

Ah, perhaps I naively assumed we wouldn't hear until said discussion...?

[Nuvinho]

Interesting:


SoccerByIves (http://twitter.com/SoccerByIves)

MLS/Philadelphia not announce expansion draft results until 3pm. Another few hours for Union fans to wait for the Amado Guevara era to begin

Ives is close with Mo, and also broke the story when we signed Amado. This is not good.

[Nodoubtguy]

As Garber clearly explained at the Supporters' Summit, Canadians can't be domestics on US teams because it's favouritism to one nationality over others.
Why shouldn't Mexicans be domestics too? Or Argentines? He said you cannot selectively discriminate against foreigners.

Because there are no teams based in those countries. Why not just label USA/Canada as North American Players.....

[Lucky Strike]

^^Ives seems awfully sure of himself.

[Nuvinho]

^^Ives seems awfully sure of himself.

Yes, it scares me.

[Lucky Strike]

As Garber clearly explained at the Supporters' Summit, Canadians can't be domestics on US teams because it's favouritism to one nationality over others.
Why shouldn't Mexicans be domestics too? Or Argentines? He said you cannot selectively discriminate against foreigners by law.

Well, we don't really care about Canadians being domestics in the US, what we really want are Americans counting as domestics here in Canada.

[rocker]

Because there are no teams based in those countries. Why not just label USA/Canada as North American Players.....

Whether or not teams exist in certain countries is irrelevant to US labour laws.

US Labour laws state that non-Americans cannot be discriminated against in employment.

MLS employs players from all around the world. Americans are safe, since American citizenship allows you all privileges of employment in America.
MLS cannot selectively choose to prefer certain nationalities over others.

I'm not making this up: Watch the Don Garber interview at the Supporters Summit. He explains it. It cannot be done according to US labour law. Simple.

[Wagner]

if true about Amado...

Gracias Wolfy.

[Nodoubtguy]

Whether or not teams exist in certain countries is irrelevant to US labour laws.

US Labour laws state that non-Americans cannot be discriminated against in employment.

MLS employs players from all around the world. Americans are safe, since American citizenship allows you all privileges of employment in America.
MLS cannot selectively choose to prefer certain nationalities over others.

I'm not making this up: Watch the Don Garber interview at the Supporters Summit. He explains it. It cannot be done according to US labour law. Simple.

I watched the summit....I just figure there has to be some way around it.

[Hitcho]

As Garber clearly explained at the Supporters' Summit, Canadians can't be domestics on US teams because it's favouritism to one nationality over others.
Why shouldn't Mexicans be domestics too? Or Argentines? He said you cannot selectively discriminate against foreigners by law.

This is just political excuses for the rule.

First, if you're going to let a team "join" the league, then you have to let that team join on a full and equal basis. To have a different set of rules for one or more teams within the league is discriminatory in itslef, and results in inequality. Sport is all about a level playing pitch for all participants. MLS are not giving us that (whether it goes for or against us, the point is it's unequal).

Second, what did MLSE pay the money for if they get shafted on the unequal application of the rules?

Third, why should we be charged to see a team that is playng against a handicap? Where's the discount on ticket prices that the league picks up for that? (And beers :D)

Fourth, none of this is even necessary, you can keep the domestic and non domestic split and just change the rules on how many of each must or must not be contained within a roster. MLS is always changing this anyway so clearly there's not a concrete rule set down by the government. They could just as easily reduce or increase the numbers to a point where we;re basically not handicapped anymore, without even being affected by the immigration issue.

There may be a genuine reason why this has to be in place, btu I have yet to see or hear about one.

[rocker]

Well, we don't really care about Canadians being domestics in the US, what we really want are Americans counting as domestics here in Canada.

Why would you want that? I thought the argument earlier in the thread was about equality?

Anyways, consult your Canadian labour lawyer on the question ;)

[Lucky Strike]

Why would you want that? I thought the argument earlier in the thread was about equality?

Anyways, consult your Canadian labour lawyer on the question ;)

Lol, I'm not saying it's doable, just as a TFC supporter, that's my interest since it would allow greater flexibility in building the roster.

[rocker]

This is just political excuses for the rule.

First, if you're going to let a team "join" the league, then you have to let that team join on a full and equal basis. To have a different set of rules for one or more teams within the league is discriminatory in itslef, and results in inequality. Sport is all about a level playing pitch for all participants. MLS are not giving us that (whether it goes for or against us, the point is it's unequal).

Second, what did MLSE pay the money for if they get shafted on the unequal application of the rules?

Third, why should we be charged to see a team that is playng against a handicap? Where's the discount on ticket prices that the league picks up for that? (And beers :D)

Fourth, none of this is even necessary, you can keep the domestic and non domestic split and just change the rules on how many of each must or must not be contained within a roster. MLS is always changing this anyway so clearly there's not a concrete rule set down by the government. They could just as easily reduce or increase the numbers to a point where we;re basically not handicapped anymore, without even being affected by the immigration issue.

There may be a genuine reason why this has to be in place, btu I have yet to see or hear about one.

I totally agree with you. I'm saying this inequality is impossible to change because of US labour laws.

The only way to create total equality would be to eliminate all restrictions completely. So teams could hire players of any nationality, as in Europe.

But MLS was designed to provide spots for Americans (same with the CFL for Canadians). So some domestic protection is needed and it's legal.

Regarding changing the makeup of the roster nationalities -- MLS already changed it for TFC after year 1, easing up on things.

[Hitcho]

I totally agree with you. I'm saying this inequality is impossible to change because of US labour laws.

The only way to create total equality would be to eliminate all restrictions completely. So teams could hire players of any nationality, as in Europe.

But MLS was designed to provide spots for Americans (same with the CFL for Canadians). So some domestic protection is needed and it's legal.

Regarding changing the makeup of the roster nationalities -- MLS already changed it for TFC after year 1, easing up on things.

I just don't believe what Gareber is telling us on this issue.

If MLS holding all the contracts is a factor and US labor law applies equally to all franchises as a result, then how come we have different rules from everyone else? Surely Canadians are already being discriminated against (either positively or negatively, it doesn't matter which) vis a vis other nationalities, by having different roster rules for them at TFC even though MLS is still the emplioyer and it's still a US league?

It just doesn't add up. The only way Garber's reasons would make sense were if TFC had the same roster restrictions as every other MLS franchise. And we don't. So it's bullshit.

And anyway, what we're asking for is to have MORE Americans given jobs with TFC as players, so that helps Americans both in terms of jobs and the USMNT.

I should watch the clip but it all just reeks of BS to me.

[Hitcho]

I hope Ives is wrong, I like Guevara and what he brings to the table.

Then again, we could use the cap space, we have too many CM players already, he's old, off to the WC for a chunk of time and has a bad history with our new head coach.

On the other hand, he'd have good trade value if he stayed.

Oh man, I'm so conflicted on this! :noidea:

[menefreghista]

I just don't believe what Gareber is telling us on this issue.

Agreed.

The USL, a league with teams in Canada and the USA, has a rule that Canadians and Americans would be domestic players for all clubs.

Why is MLS different?


The only way to create total equality would be to eliminate all restrictions completely. So teams could hire players of any nationality, as in Europe.

European leagues do have rules limiting the amount of non-EU players.

[Nodoubtguy]

I hope Ives is wrong, I like Guevara and what he brings to the table.

Then again, we could use the cap space, we have too many CM players already, he's old, off to the WC for a chunk of time and has a bad history with our new head coach.

On the other hand, he'd have good trade value if he stayed.

Oh man, I'm so conflicted on this! :noidea:

Don't these points really diminish the trade value? I personally don't mind just freeing all the cap space

[Hitcho]

Agreed.

In the USL, Canadians and Americans are both considered domestic players for all clubs.

Why is the MLS different? Its sounds more like a cop out to say it can't be done.

Exactly. It's all total bullshit and hypocrisy. A deal has been struck somewhere and they've totally fucking missed the point that what they're doing is screwing over the most basic and fundamental principle in sport.

We don;t mind too much now because we have De Ro and JDG and we've had a Canadian captain and goalkeeper in our recent past. But what happens five years from now when Mtl and Van are in the elague and fighting for the next set of decent Canadian players, and the likes of De Ro and JDG have gone? Then, we're fucked, as are Mtl and Van. At that point, the fan clamour for equality of roster rules will get much, much louder.

[Billy the kid]

Agreed.

In the USL, Canadians and Americans are both considered domestic players for all clubs.

Why is the MLS different? Its sounds more like a cop out to say it can't be done.

I didn't think the US soccer federation would allow it.

[menefreghista]

I didn't think the US soccer federation would allow it.

It is the case though.

But I believe its the USSF that is blocking it from happening in the MLS.

[Hitcho]

Don't these points really diminish the trade value? I personally don't mind just freeing all the cap space

some of them only apply to us though, and whilst other teams may try and hold that against you, when it comes to getting a lpayer of Guevara's quality you can only push those points against the trading club so far.

But yeah, point taken and I agree to a certain extent.

The fresh break under Preki (ie, no locker room crap in 2010) bothers me a lote more than the cap space issue. Amado and preki may be able to bury the hatchet, but if not it's best he goes now befoe the Preki reign even begins. Also get rid of Garcia and anyone else that was causing shit in the locker room. new coach, new lseason, new leaf.

[Hitcho]

It is the case though.

But I believe its the USSF that is blocking it from happening in the MLS.

Wouldn't surprise me. They don't care about the USL as it's a backwater compared to MLS.

Once Mtl and Van join this needs to be renegotiated though. MLS needs to say "ok, no more than three non-US teams in the league, all of whom are in (tfc, mtl, van) and now let;s give them a break on players because A) how much damage can it really do, B) they add value to the league and without that value US soccer doesn't benefit as much and C) they're just going to get more US players anyway, so in fact what you;re doing is making the situation better for USMNT.

[pekduck]

Agreed.

The USL, a league with teams in Canada and the USA, has a rule that Canadians and Americans would be domestic players for all clubs.

Why is MLS different?



European leagues do have rules limiting the amount of non-EU players.

Official answer from CSA is that USL's players contract are not considered full time status thus exempt from the provision.

[prizby]

so the picks were submitted at 1...any speculation at what those picks might have been???


i see mls.net has a live chat at 3 with pitor nowak at 3...any hints before this?

[Nuvinho]

some coded twitter messages that could mean nothing or something. Robbo seems really interested in the expansion draft.

[anonymiss]

Ditto on that. I'm wondering what his latest means...
"Had a great today sorting out some business....... Good times ahead!!!"

[Nuvinho]

some tidbits:


SoccerInsider (http://twitter.com/SoccerInsider)

rumors: andrew jacobson, alejandro moreno, shavar thomas among those selected by philly. also a trade for chris seitz? awaiting confirmation

[Nuvinho]

more:


SoccerInsider (http://twitter.com/SoccerInsider)

james riley too? official details soon


SoccerInsider (http://twitter.com/SoccerInsider)

RSL goalkeeper Chris Seitz apparently traded to Philadelphia for allocation money


SoccerByIves (http://twitter.com/SoccerByIves)

Sources: Nick Zimmerman and Brad Knighton go in Expansion Draft.


SoccerByIves (http://twitter.com/SoccerByIves)

Latest expansion draft word I'm hearing: LeToux, Salinas and David Myrie also taken. List should come out shortly.

[Nuvinho]

combining both of those guys sources....that's 9 out of 10 taken.

[Nodoubtguy]

listening live to the stream on mlsnet.com........I think a mic that should not be on yet is on....lol

[Rochdale]

listening live to the stream on mlsnet.com........I think a mic that should not be on yet is on....lol

l think l heard the word shit a few times.

[anonymiss]

l think l heard the word shit a few times.
hahaha!
wish i could listen...stupid lecture going on...

[Nodoubtguy]

l think l hear the word shit a few times.

lol...now someone is explaining the draft rules. A women just asked "are they a new team?"

pretty sure were listening to reporters talk before the draft

[DOMIN8R]

Link please

[sidvan]

http://web.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=http%3A//web.servicebureau.net/conf/meta%3Fi%3D1113156135%26c%3D15586%26m%3Dwas%26u%3D/w2.xsl&w_id=1653044&catCode=gen_audio&type=a_free&_mp=1

[sulfur]

web.mlsnet.com

first story has a link and all of the "rules" too.

[Nuvinho]

Link please
http://web.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=http%3A//web.servicebureau.net/conf/meta%3Fi%3D1113156135%26c%3D15586%26m%3Dwas%26u%3D/w2.xsl&w_id=1653044&catCode=gen_audio&type=a_free&_mp=1

[Rochdale]

www.mlsnet.com/

[TheRenter]

yup, few s bombs...dis is funny

[sidvan]

SBI Updates


Alejandro Moreno and Shavar Thomas confirmed by SBI as selected in expansion draft. Still waiting for official list to be announced less than a minute ago (http://twitter.com/SoccerByIves/statuses/6059527330)

[Nuvinho]

Paul B chimes in:


Paulbeirne (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne)

lots of rumours but no sign of TFC losing a player yet...hmmmm

[Eastend]

Is that a new site?

[prizby]

i can't listen in right now, will it be replayed, be able to listen to later?

[Nodoubtguy]

starting now.....

[Rochdale]

l'm sure Mr Beirne knows if any TFC players were picked by now

[sulfur]

i can't listen in right now, will it be replayed, be able to listen to later?
TBD. Likely be available later.

[Oldtimer]

On the other hand, he'd have good trade value if he stayed.

Oh man, I'm so conflicted on this! :noidea:

It is possible that Guevara was exposed in exchange for something. It's not a given that we get nothing for him, if selected.

[ChrisLav]

Ives is saying Zimmerman (NYRB), LeToux (Sea), Salinas (SJ), Myre (Chicago), Moreno (Clb) and Chavar Thomas (Chivas) all have gone.

[sidvan]

decaf or regular?

[Nodoubtguy]

is it really choppy for anyone else??

"decaf or regular? hahahahahahaha.....triple espresso!! hahahahahaha"

wow.....

[Nuvinho]

l'm sure Mr Beirne knows if any TFC players were picked by now

He said none for now!

probably trades in the works.

[sulfur]

And the Windows chimes. Really guys. So professional sounding. :P

But yes, very choppy.

[Lucky Strike]

lol...now someone is explaining the draft rules. A women just asked "are they a new team?"

pretty sure were listening to reporters talk before the draft

Seriously? If you're a reporter and you get sent to this, shouldn't you know what it is your attending? What happens if she were asked to cover a ritual ceremony where they sacrifice reporters or something?

[Rochdale]

about time

[sulfur]

What happens if she were asked to cover a ritual ceremony where they sacrifice reporters or something?
Sshhhh. Don't tell her now!

[Nuvinho]

NO TFC Players taken

[Rochdale]

no one from TFC.

[sulfur]

No players from:

Houston, RSL, KC, TFC, and FCD.

[scut farkus]

Wow! No players from TFC. I'm actually SHOCKED!

[Oldtimer]

No one lost by TFC.

Mo wins again.

[TheRenter]

confirmed,...none of our players taken

[Nodoubtguy]

Mo has to have something up his sleeve......

[Nuvinho]

No one lost by TFC.

Mo wins again.

Mo doesn't win.....they didn't take Garcia ;)

[pekduck]

No one lost by TFC.

Mo wins again.

what would happen in next draft where both portland and vancouver will pick?

[sulfur]

Mo doesn't win.....they didn't take Garcia ;)
Straight release then. :)

[Oldtimer]

Mo doesn't win.....they didn't take Garcia ;)

:rofl:

[Nuvinho]

Philly Union's picks: Knighton, David Myrie, Shavar Thomas, Jordan Harvey, Salinas, Miglioranzi, Andrew Jacobson, Zimmerman, Moreno, LeToux

[Chevy]

Mo has to have something up his sleeve......

....yeah, crappy players!

[T.Reis]

You guys don't think Mo might have actually wanted them to take Amado? could have been an easy solution to what might be a potential headache. Not to mention free up some cash and a roster spot.

[Beach_Red]

No players from:

Houston, RSL, KC, TFC, and FCD.

So they can win the Cup but no one wants any of their players.

[Nuvinho]

suprised at a few picks....don't know much about Myrie, Harvey, and Knighton (I know he was backup for Reis).

No Eddie Robinson or Russell (maybe the Seitz trade was made if they didn't take Russell)

[Lucky Strike]

Mo doesn't win.....they didn't take Garcia ;)

That's my view as well; earlier I listed TFC losing no one as the 2nd best option.

[sidvan]

well that confirms it...not even the expansion team like anyone on our old lineup. We will lose Amado Guevera for group stage and world cup prep and then he comes back just in time for the 2 week layoff on MLS

[Nuvinho]

I don't see Moreno being on the opening day roster.

[colman1860]

well that confirms it...not even the expansion team like anyone on our old lineup. We will lose Amado Guevera for group stage and world cup prep and then he comes back just in time for the 2 week layoff on MLS

I severely doubt that we will see Guevara in a TFC jersey again, despite the fact that Philly didn't take him today.

[ag futbol]

So they can win the Cup but no one wants any of their players.
I was thinking about this (and who was selected from the other teams).

It looks like whoever the new franchise is, they never take the best players available but more like who they can fit in their puzzle piece. Which is why i find fantasy draft's like Ives' really odd because it just tries to list out the best 11 players available.

Great example of that would be Jarred Smith last year. There were way better guys available .. but Ziggy must have thought he could find a spot for this guy given how much cap room they had.

This also kept them flexible for free agent signings.

[Nuvinho]

^^

They made a trade for RSL's Chris Seitz.

NYRBs screwed up again...not protecting Nick Zimmerman.

[Chevy]

^ Sietz was traded from RSL to Philly for allocation and the agreement that they would not select any RSL players in the draft....

[Beach_Red]

^ Sietz was traded from RSL to Philly for allocation and the agreement that they would not select any RSL players in the draft....


Okay, that makes sense.

[DOMIN8R]

I thought Guevara's contract was up at the end of this last season. Can anyone confirm?

[Nuvinho]

Will Preki try to get Shavar Thomas from Philly? He'll want to bring in some of his own guys.

[ArmenJBX]

Le Toux!?

Poor flounders. They just lost a purebred Sounder.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

....yeah, crappy players!
+1
Just like the "steal" from sanjose...

[Yohan]

Philly Union's picks: Knighton, David Myrie, Shavar Thomas, Jordan Harvey, Salinas, Miglioranzi, Andrew Jacobson, Zimmerman, Moreno, LeToux
Very surprised at the picks. For sure I would have thought one of Houston's many good defenders would have picked.

Knighton... I dunno. Edwards and Saunders and Burse looked better than Knighton.
Shavar Thomas is a good pick up. He'll be one of two starting CBs, barring some crazy pick ups by Philly.
Myrie I don't know. Ditto Jacobson. Can't be much more than depth players.

Jordan Harvey will be utility depth player

Salinas is a decent winger, though should be more depth than starter.

Miglioranzi had a good year as starting DM in LA. He'll most likely end up being a starter. Very limited skills as a player though.

Nick Zimmermann is going to be depth RW, and will push for starting role if Philly doesn't pick up anyone good. Good youth prospect

Moreno is going to be 3rd striker. Strong, but not very good finishing skills. And falls down too easily

Le Toux was a fan favourite for Seattle. Tries hard as hell, but terrible first touch. Didn't really make too much of difference in Seattle last season.

Looks like Philly is going to take same route as Seattle. Use expansion as depth pool, and trade/sign their starters. Dunno if that'll be best route, because there really was a lot of talent in this expansion pool

[sulfur]

I thought Guevara's contract was up at the end of this last season. Can anyone confirm?
I seem to recall hearing that he was ours through the end of 2010, although that may have been an option year.

[Oldtimer]

My own feeling is that Guevara will be playing in Honduras, next season.

[Wagner]

All i was offered were singles in Medium Gray.

I expressed that i'd be disappointed if anything in the supporters or light grey, specifically 110/111 was held back for gold listers, when i've been trying for additional seats since the end of season one....

[Nodoubtguy]

All i was offered were singles in Medium Gray.

I expressed that i'd be disappointed if anything in the supporters or light grey, specifically 110/111 was held back for gold listers, when i've been trying for additional seats since the end of season one....

Thread Fail!!!

[JonO]

Yeah - and an awesome one too!!

[Hitcho]

Well that's interesting. Edwards wasn't a great choice for Philly given who else was on offer in the GK position, but Guevara being overlooked is odd. Who knows what Mo has up his sleeve on this.

Regardless, we're not losing a player for nothing now, which is good. Mo can try and grab some first round picks as he trades the squad into the kind of shape Preki wants it to be in. Always good to have an early first round pick in the superdraft.

Should be an interesting off season now in terms of who we see come and go.

[TFC Cityboy]

Very surprised at the picks. For sure I would have thought one of Houston's many good defenders would have picked.

Knighton... I dunno. Edwards and Saunders and Burse looked better than Knighton.
Shavar Thomas is a good pick up. He'll be one of two starting CBs, barring some crazy pick ups by Philly.
Myrie I don't know. Ditto Jacobson. Can't be much more than depth players.

Jordan Harvey will be utility depth player

Salinas is a decent winger, though should be more depth than starter.

Miglioranzi had a good year as starting DM in LA. He'll most likely end up being a starter. Very limited skills as a player though.

Nick Zimmermann is going to be depth RW, and will push for starting role if Philly doesn't pick up anyone good. Good youth prospect

Moreno is going to be 3rd striker. Strong, but not very good finishing skills. And falls down too easily

Le Toux was a fan favourite for Seattle. Tries hard as hell, but terrible first touch. Didn't really make too much of difference in Seattle last season.

Looks like Philly is going to take same route as Seattle. Use expansion as depth pool, and trade/sign their starters. Dunno if that'll be best route, because there really was a lot of talent in this expansion pool

Impressive analysis. You either follow non-TFC MLS games extensively
OR
are sober enough with good enough vision to notice these names at home games!

Either way, I'm impressed.
:)

[tfcmanu]

Toronto FC escaped the 2009 MLS Expansion Draft unscathed as the Philadelphia Union did not select any of the eight players that TFC left exposed.

The Union had the opportunity to select former MLS MVP Amado Guevara, Canadian international Ali Gerba or Welsh international Carl Robinson, but chose instead to go another route....CONT'D

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=299859 (http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=299859)

[jloome]

Damn, there are some good players in there. Salinas is a total steal, one of the most promising wide players in the league; Shavar Thomas is a decent defender; LeToux is a good wide forward; Moreno is an able finisher.

Zimmerman could be a REAL steal; he's a technically able midfield workhorse.

It's the barebones of a good team. I'm surprised they weren't more consistent in trying to fill every spot on the pitch, though.

[jloome]

Very surprised at the picks. For sure I would have thought one of Houston's many good defenders would have picked.

Knighton... I dunno. Edwards and Saunders and Burse looked better than Knighton.
Shavar Thomas is a good pick up. He'll be one of two starting CBs, barring some crazy pick ups by Philly.
Myrie I don't know. Ditto Jacobson. Can't be much more than depth players.

Jordan Harvey will be utility depth player

Salinas is a decent winger, though should be more depth than starter.

Miglioranzi had a good year as starting DM in LA. He'll most likely end up being a starter. Very limited skills as a player though.

Nick Zimmermann is going to be depth RW, and will push for starting role if Philly doesn't pick up anyone good. Good youth prospect

Moreno is going to be 3rd striker. Strong, but not very good finishing skills. And falls down too easily

Le Toux was a fan favourite for Seattle. Tries hard as hell, but terrible first touch. Didn't really make too much of difference in Seattle last season.

Looks like Philly is going to take same route as Seattle. Use expansion as depth pool, and trade/sign their starters. Dunno if that'll be best route, because there really was a lot of talent in this expansion pool

Zimmerman plays both inside and wide. You're right, he might not start, but I expect him to based on improvement and woprk ethic.

Moreno is a very good finisher, I have no idea what you're talking about there -- in fact his wheels are why he's no longer grade 'a' material.

"Le Toux was a fan favourite for Seattle. Tries hard as hell, but terrible first touch." Eh? Terrible first touch? That's his strength!. Le Toux has a very good first touch, which is why he was the leading point getter in USL a year prior. He doesn't read the game that well, however.

Miglioranzi is technically quite able, so gain, I'm not sure where you're getting that he has limited skills. He has limited ability to cover the field as an anchorman, and again, doesn't read the game that well.

As for the Houston defenders, they're either under contract or -- like Geoff Cameron and Stuart Holden -- have more lucrative Euro options. I expect Cameron, if he stays in Houston, will be getting a BIIIG raise, which is why the protected him. Holden, their holder, is already in talks with Aberdeen. Clark is gonzo alonzo, likely to italy.

But you're right on about Eddie Robinson. Maybe they think his injuries have slowed him down to much, but to me, he's exactly the kind of centre back you pick to lead a line. Maybe they just figure Thomas can be the leader.

[pekduck]

PHILADELPHIA UNION SELECT 10
For Founding Members Only


MLS Expansion Draft Supplies Club With First Players

CHESTER, PA. (November 25, 2009) — Philadelphia Union have selected their first players. The MLS expansion club, set to begin play in 2010, now has 10 athletes, taken from a pool of 192, made available by their teams in the 2009 MLS Expansion Draft.
“We have been scouting and evaluating talent for many months,” said Philadelphia Union Team Manager Peter Nowak. “From the teams throughout MLS, we have chosen a group of players who will give us some flexibility and create options for us, as we now build our initial roster. There is still much work ahead of us.”
For Philadelphia Union CEO and Operating Partner Nick Sakiewicz, integrating the selections of the Technical Staff with the rest of the organization is the next step in a process that began 15 years ago when he was a founding executive in the League.
“Our journey began as a dream to bring Major League Soccer to the Greater Philadelphia Region,” reflected Sakiewicz. “As our front office has evolved and we’ve watched with awe as our stadium rises here on the banks of the Delaware in Chester, now the reality of having our first players is a fabulous move forward. Yet the challenge of continuing to create the quality team and organization we believe our supporters deserve drives us on every day.”
“We look forward to integrating our players into our growing family.”
The players selected are:
Goalkeeper:
Brad Knighton (New England)
Defenders:
Dave Myrie (Chicago Fire)
Shavar Thomas (Chivas USA)
Jordan Harvey (Colorado Rapids)
Midfielders:
Shea Salinas (San Jose Earthquakes)
Stefani Miglioranzi (Los Angeles Galaxy)
Andrew Jacobsen (D.C. United)
Forwards:
Nick Zimmerman (New York Red Bulls)
Alejandro Moreno (Columbus Crew)
Sebastien Le Toux (Seattle Sounders)

[Hitcho]

Did anyone catch what was said at 3pm in terms of why PU selected the players they did? Be interesting to see if they plan to hold on to some and trade others. Good chance to trade away for Mo and Preki.

[rocker]

Mo understands the MLS market. He understands MLS value. He went through an expansion draft himself, so he knows the perspective PU would be in. He lost nobody, so he still has total control to do whatever he wants. PU didn't push him in any way. He was able to protect and retain every single player that has value. Not bad I say.

[wzhxvy]

At the end of the day good outcome for TFC...cant complain.

[Beach_Red]

Mo understands the MLS market. He understands MLS value. He went through an expansion draft himself, so he knows the perspective PU would be in. He lost nobody, so he still has total control to do whatever he wants. PU didn't push him in any way. He was able to protect and retain every single player that has value. Not bad I say.


Do you think it says anything about the players' value, not being picked? Everyone here seems to think Amado has a lot value, but there may be a difference between having skill and having value for an MLS team.

[Strikers]

Do you think it says anything about the players' value, not being picked? Everyone here seems to think Amado has a lot value, but there may be a difference between having skill and having value for an MLS team.



Same reason the PU did not pick somebody from RSL, could be a trade in the works between TFC and PU.

[ag futbol]

Do you think it says anything about the players' value, not being picked? Everyone here seems to think Amado has a lot value, but there may be a difference between having skill and having value for an MLS team.
Good point, with Amado earning mid 300's he's not exactly cheap.

I'd say at last years production level (relative to his pay) he'd be an ok signing, any better he'd be great, any worse you'd be massively disapointed.

I just think that if teams are putting down that kind of coin, they might prefer to look globally for their own guy rather than pick up someone on the expansion draft with a big salary.

[denime]

Same reason the PU did not pick somebody from RSL, could be a trade in the works between TFC and PU.

Actually:


^ Sietz was traded from RSL to Philly for allocation and the agreement that they would not select any RSL players in the draft....

[Oldtimer]

Interestingly enough, Ives was wrong about Guevara.

[Nuvinho]

What would we have to give up to get Thomas and their 1st overall pick.

Didn't Nicky Garcia get traded for the 1st overall pick......hahahahaha!!!

[jloome]

More likely, Amado will go back to Motagua, where he's a hero.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

My own feeling is that Guevara will be playing in Honduras, next season.

im with you on that
Its possible Robbo leaves too because he will be asked to play/get paid less
once again this is all speculation

[James17930]

Wow -- so it seems their primary goal was to minimize salary.

How ambitious. :rolleyes:

[jloome]

No, it's not about minimizing salary, it's a character squad. They all have very high work rates. So if Nowak can sign two or three team-leading skill players, he'll have a team that can compete every week, even if it's technically somewhat behind the rest of the league.

It's pretty canny. Could backfire on him very, very badly if he can't secure a defensive leader (Thomas is more a number two, despite his size, than a guy leading the line) and the two young goalies have bad seasons. Plus, I can't say a frontline of Moreno and LeToux is going to score that many. They're both good players, but not league leaders.

So you have to figure he has free agents in mind at striker, centre half, probably a wide player or two.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

curious to see who he entices from Europe as there have been rumors floating around he intends on that

[James17930]

No, it's not about minimizing salary, it's a character squad. They all have very high work rates. So if Nowak can sign two or three team-leading skill players, he'll have a team that can compete every week, even if it's technically somewhat behind the rest of the league.

It's pretty canny. Could backfire on him very, very badly if he can't secure a defensive leader (Thomas is more a number two, despite his size, than a guy leading the line) and the two young goalies have bad seasons. Plus, I can't say a frontline of Moreno and LeToux is going to score that many. They're both good players, but not league leaders.

So you have to figure he has free agents in mind at striker, centre half, probably a wide player or two.

Sure, but it seems like there were better guys available who are cut from a similar cloth, but who would have been more expensive:

- Hedjuk
- Harmse
- Garey
- Van den Burgh
- Wade Barret
- Cochrane
- Ricardo Clark

That's only going through about half the teams, but already you can see the known names of the guys that they passed on -- not to mention the big guys like Amado.

Now, you could argue that age was a factor in passing on these guys, but none of them are really that old (excepting Hedjuk, maybe), and don't you want a few veterans around when you're building a new club?

To me, it still seems like they plain and simple cheaped out.

[Shakes McQueen]

I find it odd so many people are surprised at Guevara not being chosen, seeing as there's strong indication that he might be heading back to Honduras anyway.

- Scott

[pank]

People in several different forums have gone on about Clark and Rolfe not being chosen. I'm fairly certain they are both off to Europe next year.

[Lucky Strike]

People in several different forums have gone on about Clark and Rolfe not being chosen. I'm fairly certain they are both off to Europe next year.

They are, yes.

[Hitcho]

I find it odd so many people are surprised at Guevara not being chosen, seeing as there's strong indication that he might be heading back to Honduras anyway.

- Scott

I keep hearing this, but what is it actually based on other than people thinking "wouldn't that be a nice thing for Amado in WC year"?

I'm not saying it's wrong, but if there's "strong indication", what is it? Comments from Amado? A club back home announcing his intended arrival?

Because on the other side of the coin, Amado has a young family and will probably want to max out his salary potential in the final couple of years of career. Plus he'll want to be playing at the highest level possible in the run up to the WC to stay fit and in form.

So, just curious, where's the strong indication? I agree it could be something PU relied on in not selecting him if true though Shakes, that would make sense. Although would they not then get the transfer fee if he was sold? So even then there would be a potential upside to having his rights.

[ManUtd4ever]

I for one am both surprised and relieved at Guevara's ommission from Philadelphia's expansion draft selections. I'd rather have Amado in TFC's lineup for 20 games next season than lose him for nothing. I don't have stats on this, but I'm fairly sure that TFC's record last season was stronger with El Lobo on the pitch. If he decides to return to Honduras, then he will be difficult to replace, but at this point it is pure speculation...

[Hitcho]

^ I agree that he's a good player for us, but if he does go then I don't think it will be a question fo replacing him as much as adapting the existing midfield players without Amado there. I'd have no issues with a central midfield consisting of some combo of Robbo (DCM), Cronin (box to box), JDG (can do it all) and De Ro (ACM or withdrawn striker role). Plus there's Sanyang to come through as well.

So if Amado does go, I'd like to see us use his cap space for some wide players instead.

[v00d00daddy]

^ I agree that he's a good player for us, but if he does go then I don't think it will be a question fo replacing him as much as adapting the existing midfield players without Amado there. I'd have no issues with a central midfield consisting of some combo of Robbo (DCM), Cronin (box to box), JDG (can do it all) and De Ro (ACM or withdrawn striker role). Plus there's Sanyang to come through as well.

So if Amado does go, I'd like to see us use his cap space for some wide players instead.


The problem with this is that TFC would be playing with essentially 3 holding midfielders (of three degrees of skill). We can't rely on just the skill of JDG to get us by with gettting the ball through the middle of the field.

I would much prefer to use 300k on 20 games of Amado in his ususal role with Cronin, JDG and DeRo...as opposed to using 300k in Robbo's usual role.

If we're cutting salary, his should be the first to go.

[ManUtd4ever]

^ I agree that he's a good player for us, but if he does go then I don't think it will be a question fo replacing him as much as adapting the existing midfield players without Amado there. I'd have no issues with a central midfield consisting of some combo of Robbo (DCM), Cronin (box to box), JDG (can do it all) and De Ro (ACM or withdrawn striker role). Plus there's Sanyang to come through as well.

So if Amado does go, I'd like to see us use his cap space for some wide players instead.

Yes, TFC's midfield is crowded at the moment, but it is Amado's skillset that will leave a void in the lineup if he departs. In that scenario I would like to see the cap space utilized for a proven natural striker assuming JDG can fill the gap...

[rocker]

All of PU's picks were cheaper in salary than most of the exposed TFC players.... even Knighton over Edwards in the GK position. Moreno even has a lower salary than Gerba. From a quick look, they didn't pick anyone that was close to half the cost of Vitti, or Guevara, or Robinson.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

All of PU's picks were cheaper in salary than most of the exposed TFC players.... even Knighton over Edwards in the GK position. Moreno even has a lower salary than Gerba. From a quick look, they didn't pick anyone that was close to half the cost of Vitti, or Guevara, or Robinson.
Yea that is true... i look at our salaries and we have many players above 300k which hugely UNDERPERFORM... and the official cap is not even 3 million.
we have to retire our legend early to make room for deguz..

yea just mind bogelling how people think how mo is such a hard ass... and knows how to push around people... yet he seems to be giving away cash like if it grows on trees...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

as argued elsewhere it was to entice players to come play in canada on field turf, that may change now but all the same we do have to clean house

[Hitcho]

The problem with this is that TFC would be playing with essentially 3 holding midfielders (of three degrees of skill). We can't rely on just the skill of JDG to get us by with gettting the ball through the middle of the field.

I would much prefer to use 300k on 20 games of Amado in his ususal role with Cronin, JDG and DeRo...as opposed to using 300k in Robbo's usual role.

If we're cutting salary, his should be the first to go.

I'm not commenting on who we should be getting rid of, I am just saying if Amado goes, I cannot see us bringing in another high salaried CM player given the players we already have in that position.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that we play with three DCMs, I was just listing the players we already have in the CM position. Besides which I don't think you can classify JDG or even Cronin as simply DCMs. JDG plays a far more attacking role for Canada and his talent would be wasted at DCM in this league. And Cronin hasn't really been used as a DCM since we drafted him.

I think Robbo still has a valuable role to play next season. He gives the likes of JDG, Cronin and De Ro a lot more freedom to get forward. In fact, I think we need Robbo to get the best out of JDG next season, and given he's our DP that's exactly what we should aiming for. Just my opinion though.

[ManUtd4ever]

I'm not commenting on who we should be getting rid of, I am just saying if Amado goes, I cannot see us bringing in another high salaried CM player given the players we already have in that position.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that we play with three DCMs, I was just listing the players we already have in the CM position. Besides which I don't think you can classify JDG or even Cronin as simply DCMs. JDG plays a far more attacking role for Canada and his talent would be wasted at DCM in this league. And Cronin hasn't really been used as a DCM since we drafted him.

I think Robbo still has a valuable role to play next season. He gives the likes of JDG, Cronin and De Ro a lot more freedom to get forward. In fact, I think we need Robbo to get the best out of JDG next season, and given he's our DP that's exactly what we should aiming for. Just my opinion though.

Agreed, especially if Amado's gone. I think many people overlook Robbo's value to the team in that regard. Robbo's injury last season forced JDG into a central midfield role and I think we all know JDG has more to offer in an attacking role...

[anonymiss]

I think Robbo still has a valuable role to play next season. He gives the likes of JDG, Cronin and De Ro a lot more freedom to get forward. In fact, I think we need Robbo to get the best out of JDG next season, and given he's our DP that's exactly what we should aiming for. Just my opinion though.

I agree. Some people seem to think Robbo doesn't do much but intercept a ball now and then, and they criticize him for not going forward and attacking. The problem with this is the he is in a DCM position. He knows his job and does it well. Having him holding that spot in the midfield lets our more skillful attacking players, a la JDG and De Ro, do what we want them to do, attack, get the ball forward, and hopefully score goals.

[Lucky Strike]

I agree. Some people seem to think Robbo doesn't do much but intercept a ball now and then, and they criticize him for not going forward and attacking. The problem with this is the he is in a DCM position. He knows his job and does it well. Having him holding that spot in the midfield lets our more skillful attacking players, a la JDG and De Ro, do what we want them to do, attack, get the ball forward, and hopefully score goals.

For my part, my big beef with Robbo is that his passing last year was just dreadful. In that light, what good is taking the ball away only to give it back with a poor pass?

[Hitcho]

^ that was an issue, but you don't forget how to pass a ball or lose your understanding of the game overnight. my guess i he went through a bit of a dip in form and was maybe being given conflicting or different instructions from the coaches. I think if Preki wants Robbo in the side and uses him properly then next season we'll see a big improvement in Robbo - he'll be back to the anonymous figure that gets the ball back and makes a simple, non-eye-catching pass to set us going forward again.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

For my part, my big beef with Robbo is that his passing last year was just dreadful. In that light, what good is taking the ball away only to give it back with a poor pass?

thatd be the only issue for me as well, especially given the money he makes and the fact we have several other players nipping at his heals for his position

[v00d00daddy]

I'm sorry but Cronin can do what Robbo does...for less money and with more ball distribution.

He may not be as good a ball winner as Robbo but as somebody said earlier...what good is a ball winner if he can't move the ball he's just won?

If Robbo is a starter this year it means that we have no wingers..which could mean another long season.

If we find guys to play out wide I can only assume that the central midfield will have to be whittled down to accomodate them.

If that's the case..it better be Robbo watching Cronin play and not the other way around.

[Strikers]

So is Chris Seitz officially traded to the PU, there is no report of the trade
on any of the MLS websites. Just the bloggers think it's a done deal.

[anonymiss]

I'm sorry but Cronin can do what Robbo does...for less money and with more ball distribution.

He may not be as good a ball winner as Robbo but as somebody said earlier...what good is a ball winner if he can't move the ball he's just won?

If Robbo is a starter this year it means that we have no wingers..which could mean another long season.

If we find guys to play out wide I can only assume that the central midfield will have to be whittled down to accomodate them.

If that's the case..it better be Robbo watching Cronin play and not the other way around.

While I agree that Cronin can do what Robbo does for less money, I very much he can do so to the same level. Robbo brings a certain plate of experience with him, which is what allowed him to be a great mentor for Cronin. Just an observation here: I noticed this past season that when Cronin got the ball in the mid, he looked for Robbo first...:) Give Robbo a decisive coaching strategy, and I'm sure he'll start making good passes within that structure.

Hitcho:

Spot on. I think Robbo's going to get decisive and very explicit directions from Preki on what his role is, which will definitely boost his performance, IMHO.

[Yohan]

Moreno is a very good finisher, I have no idea what you're talking about there -- in fact his wheels are why he's no longer grade 'a' material.
he might have been a good finisher, but he certainly wasn't last season. 22 games and 4 goals. what he did well was to create space in the box for Shitlicker to get his share of goals...


"Le Toux was a fan favourite for Seattle. Tries hard as hell, but terrible first touch." Eh? Terrible first touch? That's his strength!. Le Toux has a very good first touch, which is why he was the leading point getter in USL a year prior. He doesn't read the game that well, however.

it's just my observation (and that of some Sounders supporters). from what I saw, his first touch a lot of times took him away from the most advantages position to make a play. plus, USL defence isn't exactly MLS defence (and I know we can argue about quality of USL vs MLS all day long)


Miglioranzi is technically quite able, so gain, I'm not sure where you're getting that he has limited skills. He has limited ability to cover the field as an anchorman, and again, doesn't read the game that well.
I was rather surprised at Miglioranzi becoming #1 choice for LAG. partially because LA signed Dema Kovalenko who IMO is a better DM than Miglioranzi. what I did saw from Miglioranzi was a typical MLS player who worked hard and played the game that the coach told him to play. did nothing fancy, worked hard, but i didn't see anything technically that made him stand out.



But you're right on about Eddie Robinson. Maybe they think his injuries have slowed him down to much, but to me, he's exactly the kind of centre back you pick to lead a line. Maybe they just figure Thomas can be the leader.
I think it may be the injury thing putting a doubt on Robinson as well. TBH any of choice between Robinson, Waibel, Mulrooney would have been pretty good. I personally liked Mike Chabala who did well filling in on any of the 3 position on D and I thought would make a good depth player for PU

[Hitcho]

Agreed anonymiss. Preki looks like he will bring a defined and organised system to the team (hopefully with a back up or two for games where he needs it!) and I can see Robbo fitting into that quite nicely. Having a flat back four with a decen DCM in front of them also gives you a lot of options on how to play the attacking half of your team, especially if we get in a wide player or two.

[Big Bruva]

I said awhile ago that Amado and possibly the likes of Robbo and Jimmy would be gone.

Now Preki is coach that will mean the end of Amado given their bad relationship etc

[CretanBull]

^Is their relationship so bad that after 2 years they can't man up and be professionals? I like Guevara, but I hope that if he goes its because Mo sees a better way to spend the cap-hit that Guevara represents (especially given his WC commitments) and not because of some old feud.

[Lucky Strike]

^Is their relationship so bad that after 2 years they can't man up and be professionals? I like Guevara, but I hope that if he goes its because Mo sees a better way to spend the cap-hit that Guevara represents (especially given his WC commitments) and not because of some old feud.

That's what I said when the Preki-to-TFC rumours first started. Very few people seemed to consider that the two of them are grown men and could well have moved past the problem since then.