TFC are considering requiring academy players commit to Canada

[Roogsy]

From Paul Beirne's Twitter:


At TFC we're discussing requiring Academy players to commit to Canada if called. We wont develop a player who turns his back on Canada
about 4 hours ago from Tweetie

http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne

Niagara asked me if I like anything TFC does, and I do. This is the sort of thing that TFC is doing right. I see great signs coming from the academy system they are building. If they are successful in finding a way to get the players they develop to commit to Canada, that would add to the legacy Toronto FC is building for this country.

I know it's just something they are looking at and in the end may not be able to do for whatever reason, but nobody can say they aren't helping soccer in Canada and trying to do more.

The most significant issue is the fact that the players will be leaving the academy system well before they are able to commit to the senior team so I am not sure how much Toronto can do to ensure they eventually do.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Yuck. Sounds fascist. It would be nice if players the club develop would want to play for Canada (assuming their all Canadian), but to force them to is wrong and outside the scope of what the academy should be about, the academy's focus should be on developing players for TFC, not worrying about what U17 team a player suits up for.

Work on getting the academy players on pro contracts like the Whitecaps do with their top academy team, then worry about jingoism (the timing on this is a little tasteless too).

Also, is there any president for an action like this anywhere in pro sports?

[billyfly]

Can't please everybody no matter what you do.

[Roogsy]

You mean "precedent".

And in pro sports there isn't the kind of national participation like there is in soccer. Hockey, baseball, American Football even basketball, none of those have the kinds of international competitions that there are in soccer and so it would be difficult to find any kind of similarity at all on the national level, let alone one that is similar to this particular situation.

If TFC want to help retain players on the Canadian teams, I am all for it. I don't see anything fascist about it, these players are developed in Canada, supported by Canadians and for the sport to continue to grow, should play for Canada if they want to play internationally. If FIFA rules don't help us, teams should look at creating their own.

[Whoop]

While the sentiment is great, I agree with UltraSuperMegaMo... I don't want TFC dictating who plays for who.

I mean I would be pissed if TFC missed out on a great player for this reason.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

You mean "precedent".

And in pro sports there isn't the kind of national participation like there is in soccer. Hockey, baseball, American Football even basketball, none of those have the kinds of international competitions that there are in soccer and so it would be difficult to find any kind of similarity at all on the national level, let alone one that is similar to this particular situation.

If TFC want to help retain players on the Canadian teams, I am all for it. I don't see anything fascist about it, these players are developed in Canada, supported by Canadians and for the sport to continue to grow, should play for Canada if they want to play internationally. If FIFA rules don't help us, teams should look at creating their own.

Yes, precedent, thanks. I meant in terms of other football / soccer clubs in particular. I feel it's "fascist" (a little heavy handed I'll admit) because they team would restricting the rights of their players, by disallowing a behaviour which is in no way criminal or illegal.

[Roogsy]

Yes, precedent, thanks. I meant in terms of other football / soccer clubs in particular.

Absolutely! Soccer clubs in South America and Europe have incredible influence in how the national associations call up players and how players respond to callups. Part of the problem we have is the fact that some European clubs are pressuring their players to ignore their national duties. So yeah, clubs do influence this process and where and when players play.

[Roogsy]

While the sentiment is great, I agree with UltraSuperMegaMo... I don't want TFC dictating who plays for who.

I mean I would be pissed if TFC missed out on a great player for this reason.

On the club level, players have different considerations in helping them decide who they play for.

On the national level, there are far less. I can't think of a situation where TFC would miss out on a great player for this reason.

[ginkster88]

Do you think this could have something to do with establishing domesticity to work around MLS' wonky rules?

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Absolutely! Soccer clubs in South America and Europe have incredible influence in how the national associations call up players and how players respond to callups. Part of the problem we have is the fact that some European clubs are pressuring their players to ignore their national duties. So yeah, clubs do influence this process and where and when players play.

I'm aware of that, but it falls short picking what country an individual plays for internationally.

[Roogsy]

Not very short...I mean, we've all read plenty of articles (and Jason De Vos refers to it in his blog) with regards to players who are pressured to avoid playing for Canada because it's an insignificant soccer country. If a player sees an opportunity to play for a European country that would find more favour with his current club, you don't view that as "picking" countries for the player by the clubs?

If someone threatened your livelihood if your choice didn't agree with theirs, wouldn't you view that as more than just a "suggestion"?

[Whoop]

On the club level, players have different considerations in helping them decide who they play for.

On the national level, there are far less. I can't think of a situation where TFC would miss out on a great player for this reason.

13 year old from country x immigrates to Canada, moves to Toronto. Joins TFC Academy. In time he could play for his adopted country or play for the country of his birth.

Who does he commit to?

[Whoop]

But like I said I agree with the sentiment... but it just seems heavy handed.

I mean I'm Canadian through and through but I can't speak for someone who has immigrated here.

[Roogsy]

Of course I would prefer that measures like this wouldn't be necessary because they are heavy-handed, I agree.

But the alternative is to see a kid developed by our home team and then run off to play for Poland?

[MUFC_Niagara]

From Paul Beirne's Twitter:



http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne

Niagara asked me if I like anything TFC does, and I do. This is the sort of thing that TFC is doing right. I see great signs coming from the academy system they are building. If they are successful in finding a way to get the players they develop to commit to Canada, that would add to the legacy Toronto FC is building for this country.

I know it's just something they are looking at and in the end may not be able to do for whatever reason, but nobody can say they aren't helping soccer in Canada and trying to do more.

The most significant issue is the fact that the players will be leaving the academy system well before they are able to commit to the senior team so I am not sure how much Toronto can do to ensure they eventually do.

Man, stop the press but this is the 2nd time today I have agreed with Roogsy! I love this idea. However, I think that if kids are developed here in Canada they would play for them anyway and I think, Roogs, that is how TFC will ensure they play for Canada. They won't so much be telling the kids they have to play but imbedding in them that they are developed by a Canadian team and should therefore committ to Canada. Ideally, if TFC and the CSA could get onside as far combining training tactics and other joint ideas, it would go a long way to ensuring the kids committ to our national team. They do this in England with the clubs and the English team.

JDG and Hargreaves turned their back on Canada because they developed oversees.

[TFC07]

I agree with those who said this is "fascist", but at same time, Canada needs to do something about this issue of losing our best players. Just imagine how good Canadian men's team will be if our better players decided to play for Canada? We'll be one of top teams in CONCACAF and most likely play in WC regularly.

[Roogsy]

To be honest, I don't think there is a feasible way for TFC to actually be able to follow through with this.

But at least it shows where their intentions are. And that will feed through to the kids and hopefully they too will develop some sense of loyalty that has been missing in many Canadian players that have chosen to play elsewhere.

It's just happening too often. Anyone with European parentage are a risk to play elsewhere...we need to put measures in place to keep them playing here.


I agree with those who said this is "fascist", but at same time, Canada needs to do something about this issue of losing our best players. Just imagine how good Canadian men's team will be if our better players decided to play for Canada? We'll be one of top teams in CONCACAF and most likely play in WC regularly.

My friend...we'd likely be going to the 2010 World Cup. I firmly believe it.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Players don't play for Canada because playing for other countries is a better way to forward their professional development. It's unseemly from the prospective of fans and people who are proud of this country. TFC can help this problem by raising the standard of the sport in Canada. The national team can do the same thing by merely being competitive.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of players coming through the TFC academy system playing for Canada, I just don't see how it can be mandated. Additionally, there's an element of the cart being way ahead of the horse here. Although, they've got good people involved with the academy system and they've made great strides in their brief existence, we're miles away from having a player being a pro much less being pulled in different directions by competing national interests. Let's see if we sign an academy player this offseason (Matheson or maybe Morgan?) and then see what happens.

[MUFC_Niagara]

To be honest, I don't think there is a feasible way for TFC to actually be able to follow through with this.

But at least it shows where their intentions are. And that will feed through to the kids and hopefully they too will develop some sense of loyalty that has been missing in many Canadian players that have chosen to play elsewhere.

It's just happening too often. Anyone with European parentage are a risk to play elsewhere...we need to put measures in place to keep them playing here.



My friend...we'd likely be going to the 2010 World Cup. I firmly believe it.

I think that is the key issue, as I said, JDG and Hargo developed elsewhere. If these kids develop in Canada with a Canadian club team, I really think that will be enough to have them committ to Canada.

[Whoop]

To be honest, I don't think there is a feasible way for TFC to actually be able to follow through with this.

But at least it shows where their intentions are. And that will feed through to the kids and hopefully they too will develop some sense of loyalty that has been missing in many Canadian players that have chosen to play elsewhere.

It's just happening too often. Anyone with European parentage are a risk to play elsewhere...we need to put measures in place to keep them playing here.



My friend...we'd likely be going to the 2010 World Cup. I firmly believe it.

Roogs, you mean any foreign parentage, right? ;)

Last I checked O'Brian White and David Hoilett weren't European.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

A little OT, but Dobson recently implied OBW might switching allegiances to Canada, anyone else heard that?

[werewolf]

A little OT, but Dobson recently implied OBW might switching allegiances to Canada, anyone else heard that?

Jamaica can keep him. We'll keep David Hoilett.

[TFC07]

Roogs, you mean any foreign parentage, right? ;)

Last I checked O'Brian White and David Hoilett weren't European.

To be fair, White is a Jamaican. He was born and raised there and has played for Jamaican youth teams in the past.

[Whoop]

I was just picking on Roogs for limiting it to European parentage. LOL

But wait a minute, how long has White lived in Canada? And why are people pressuring him to join Canada? http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Marc"2L"]

Seems kind of redundant. The point of the academy is to retain Canadian youth. Establishing it alone should ensure more Canadian players for selection. But ok, I guess.

[Whoop]

I thought the point of the Academy was to produce players for TFC... well, that's what it should be if MLS didn't have their restrictive rules about signing Academy players.

But yes, by extension, most should be Canadian players.

Oh to dream of the day when TFC would be able to sign players from around the world and send them to their Academy a la Barcelona, Sporting, Ajax, etc.

[Roogsy]

I was just picking on Roogs for limiting it to European parentage. LOL

But wait a minute, how long has White lived in Canada? And why are people pressuring him to join Canada? http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

I understand what you are saying, but the real dangers (and constant stream of similar episodes) are with European countries. Few players in the system are choosing African, Asian or even South American countries over Canada. But the European countries have a special allure and that is where most of the problems are found. My reference was intentional.

[Whoop]

Ok... I'll keep you to it if in the future if the next guy isn't European. LOL

[TFCRegina]

For those who are claiming this is fascist, it isn't.

This is no more fascist than requiring TFC to field a certain number of domestic players.

TFC has to protect its investment, because this is a way for them to meet their domestic quota without shelling out massive cash in transfer payments.

I'm for it as a CMNT and TFC supporter.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

For those who are claiming this is fascist, it isn't.

This is no more fascist than requiring TFC to field a certain number of domestic players.

TFC has to protect its investment, because this is a way for them to meet their domestic quota without shelling out massive cash in transfer payments.

I'm for it as a CMNT and TFC supporter.

I can see both sides of this issue, but lets be realistic here.

[Roogsy]

For those who are claiming this is fascist, it isn't.

This is no more fascist than requiring TFC to field a certain number of domestic players.

TFC has to protect its investment, because this is a way for them to meet their domestic quota without shelling out massive cash in transfer payments.

I'm for it as a CMNT and TFC supporter.

Very good point on the whole domestic issue. A major reason TFC created the academy right from the start was in order to produce players that would qualify as domestics.

Although to be fair...the domestic rule in MLS is a little more broad isn't it? I mean a player like Jonathan De Guzman wouldn't lose his "Canadian" classification just because he plays for Holland. So a TFC academy player who is Canadian wouldn't lose his TFC "Canadian" classification even if he ran off to play for Jamaica internationally.

[T_Mizz]

13 year old from country x immigrates to Canada, moves to Toronto. Joins TFC Academy. In time he could play for his adopted country or play for the country of his birth.

Who does he commit to?
Whoever we tell him to:scarf::canada:
apparently.
I do like this idea but it is insanely selfish completely taking these kids' choice away and all that.
Having said that, I am a selfish person so i'm down:D

PS Ryan Macleod plays for T & T's U-17 team

[Razcle]

Instead of trying to force players to play for Canada because this is where they are developed. Lets try and make it attractive to play for Canada by making the world cup and finishing top 3 in CONCACAF. We have enough decent players to make a team that could qualify however for the past few we have crapped the bed, when it mattered most(Jamaica's comeback tie, Honduras comeback win). Lets get our shit together like the Aussies did and make Canada a place worth playing for.

[Whoop]

^^
100%

[Ossington Mental Youth]

kinda awesome idea but also a good way to chase off great players, conflicted on this especially as the CSA is still complete garbage

[TFCRegina]

I can see both sides of this issue, but lets be realistic here.

Think relatively rather than absolutely.

[s2cazz]

Players don't play for Canada because playing for other countries is a better way to forward their professional development. It's unseemly from the prospective of fans and people who are proud of this country. TFC can help this problem by raising the standard of the sport in Canada. The national team can do the same thing by merely being competitive.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of players coming through the TFC academy system playing for Canada, I just don't see how it can be mandated. Additionally, there's an element of the cart being way ahead of the horse here. Although, they've got good people involved with the academy system and they've made great strides in their brief existence, we're miles away from having a player being a pro much less being pulled in different directions by competing national interests. Let's see if we sign an academy player this offseason (Matheson or maybe Morgan?) and then see what happens.
Developed in Canada. Canadian Citizens (or even Landed Immigrant) Living in Canada. Play for Canada. A CANADIAN system is developing them it only makes sense. would you invest in a stock so your neighbour can get the dividends?

[Canary Canuck]

Not very short...I mean, we've all read plenty of articles (and Jason De Vos refers to it in his blog) with regards to players who are pressured to avoid playing for Canada because it's an insignificant soccer country. If a player sees an opportunity to play for a European country that would find more favour with his current club, you don't view that as "picking" countries for the player by the clubs?

No, according to De Vos it's mostly about travel. The clubs don't want their players flying halfway around the world all the time when they have the option of playing for a country close by.

[SilverSamurai]

This is good and I'm 100% behind it.
I hope this goes through.

[Toronto Ruffrider]

This is good and I'm 100% behind it.
I hope this goes through.

Me too, although I admit to being a little bit biased on this issue.:canada:

[kodiakTFC]

Not sure if it is legal but I like it.

[CretanBull]

I don't want anyone playing for us unless their heart is in it. At the same time, I don't want anyone who's heart is in Canada playing for anyone else because it's a better career opportunity. At the end of the day, I'd support TFC on this...if "we" pay for and support your developement then you owe us...measures like this need to be taken if Canada wants to get better internationally - and relying on the CSA is hopeless.

[Shakes McQueen]

As long as they are upfront about this requirement with prospective Academy players, I've got no problem with it.

And it isn't "fascist" either, because if you don't like it, you're free to go to another academy.

- Scott

[Broadview]

If this rule was in effect last season, would Sanyang have gotten the runs out with the Acadamy that he did?

The turncoats bother me as well, but I don't want my club shooting itself in the foot over it.

[sidvan]

Realistically, until the player is on the CMNT senior team and has played in a qualifying game, the academy players can play for Canada and still switch at 21 or 22 as per Begovic.

Nice idea. Maybe years with the national youth teams will sway them to commit to the senior squad.

[Super]

Wow - how shocking that a private company would tell its future employees to show a little loyalty towards what is good for the company. And besides, if a Canadian born player wants to play for Germany or whatever in his future, perhaps he should go to Germany and have them develop him. I don't see why this is TFC's responsibility. Also, as a season ticket holder I don't want to develop a Canadian player who is going to turn around and betray his country. He can fuck off for all I care!

[denime]

I understand what you are saying, but the real dangers (and constant stream of similar episodes) are with European countries. Few players in the system are choosing African, Asian or even South American countries over Canada. But the European countries have a special allure $$$$ and that is where most of the problems are found. My reference was intentional.

FIXED :)

But really,Can you blame them,for that.
In Europe they play constantly ,it is aether WCQ or European CQ.

Here we have a Gold Cup and every 4 years WCQ combined with 2 friendlies per year,not the mention with European passport they don't count as forigners in their clubs,and that makes a big difference.

As far TFC move goes,downright stupid,they should work on the future TFC players not Canada NT,let CSA do their job Paul.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm assuming this rule would only apply to players who are eligible for Canada + one or more other countries. Meaning if TFC decided to sign some kid from Kazakhstan who isn't quite ready for the first team, it isn't like they would bring him over and force him to commit to the CMNT.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

As far TFC move goes,downright stupid,they should work on the future TFC players not Canada NT,let CSA do their job Paul.

This actually does help TFC, because it helps to ensure we have a stream of players coming in who qualify as a "Canadian" under MLS roster rules.

- Scott

[SilverSamurai]

Me too, although I admit to being a little bit biased on this issue.:canada:
That's the problem we have as a nation, as too afraid of "biased" even when it suits us.
Part of the typical Canadian stereotype, although could be good or bad. But better then being seen as aggressive like the gringos. lol

[Oldtimer]

Over the course of Asmir Begovic’s association with Canadian soccer, he has received around $60,000 of funding from Sport Canada.http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/2009/11/the_csas_side_of_the_asmir_beg.html

Asmir later decided to play for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

With the government (and ultimately Canadian taxpayers) paying vast sums to develop Canadian talent, just to see them play elsewhere, it is wrong to not demand some commitment to Canada. If TFC pours vast sums into their academy (which seems to be the case), why would they train a player (at no cost to that player) only to see them become ineligable as a Canadian player?

It's not "fascist," it's common sense.

We do exactly the same thing with bursaries for physicians in Ontario. If you want to have the government fund your training (as opposed to paying your own way), you have to work for a few years in Northern Ontario (where there is a desperate shortage of physicians) following your graduation, or you have to pay back the full cost of your training. This program is called the "Northern Bursary."

If a player pays their own way at private academies, there should be no restrictions on where they play. If the government, or TFC funds the player, they have every right to demand something in return.

IMO the model that TFC should follow is the Northern Bursary model. If a player chooses to play somewhere else, they should have to pay back the cost of their training.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

From Paul Beirne's Twitter:



http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne

Niagara asked me if I like anything TFC does, and I do. This is the sort of thing that TFC is doing right. I see great signs coming from the academy system they are building. If they are successful in finding a way to get the players they develop to commit to Canada, that would add to the legacy Toronto FC is building for this country.

I know it's just something they are looking at and in the end may not be able to do for whatever reason, but nobody can say they aren't helping soccer in Canada and trying to do more.

The most significant issue is the fact that the players will be leaving the academy system well before they are able to commit to the senior team so I am not sure how much Toronto can do to ensure they eventually do.
I agree. The last thing anyone wants to see is a TFC academy player pull a Lensky and defect. I'm not sure they'd be allowed to force academy players to commit to Canada, but when you think about it, it's not as if they're forcing them to make some huge sacrifice; just to commit to the country they live in, which they should be doing anyway.

And if they were actually born in another country, well, there are countless examples of players who don't play for the country they were born in. Just off the top of my head, Josip Simunic was born in Australia, much of the French national team was born in North Africa, and Zdravko Kuzmanovic was born in Switzerland, and are playing for Croatia, France and Serbia respectively. I seriously doubt that aggressive recruiting tactics from the associations they chose to represent played no part in their decision; hell, look at the way BiH stole away Asmir Begovic. They went after him aggressively and got him.

I say good move by TFC.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

FIXED :)

But really,Can you blame them,for that.
In Europe they play constantly ,it is aether WCQ or European CQ.

Here we have a Gold Cup and every 4 years WCQ combined with 2 friendlies per year,not the mention with European passport they don't count as forigners in their clubs,and that makes a big difference.

As far TFC move goes,downright stupid,they should work on the future TFC players not Canada NT,let CSA do their job Paul.
For one thing, having more Canadian players, and a better national team, is DEFINITELY in TFC's interest in a lot of ways.

Secondly... When have the CSA proven capable of doing their jobs?

We scheduled two friendlies during this international break, hopefully that's a sign of someone getting their act together and starting to care and this continues. If we end up playing all our friendlies away I won't care, so long as we're playing.

[TFC Tifoso]

not too sure I like this.....would you play for an academy who is forcing you to play for an organization that is in shambles?....

and how about foreign born players?.....would they have to play for Canada too?.....I think that would be the reverse of the criticism players like Hargreaves and JDG 2 are getting.....like to say "we're the benefactor now so its ok".....

it is the responsbility of the organization (ie. CSA) to identify the talent at a young age and do what it takes to keep them, rather than staring at their own bum holes.....

[Mark in Ottawa]

Ok... I'm confused.
I thought TFC was a professional football club and not a "farm team" for the Canadian National Team.

TFC is responsible to its board of directors and its fans. They should be developing players for their first team. If the CSA can point out a potential national player to them and get that player better training on the way to the national team so be it but the development of the game in the country and the national teams is the CSA responsability. It is why the gov't gives them some of my tax money and I wish they could get their act together.

[jabbronies]

I have to agree with Oldtimer's comments.
This is a private organization that is investing $$$ into these players. TFC has already made it known they want to be the place were CMNT members are developed and hopfully ultimatley play for.

So if they decide that any player they bring into thier system that qualifies to play for Canada should commit, then I say good on them.

they make it pretty clear in thier mission statement that they are committed to developing Canadian talent:
http://web.mlsnet.com/t280/youth/academy/programs/

[SteeltownBhoy]

I think that is the key issue, as I said, JDG and Hargo developed elsewhere. If these kids develop in Canada with a Canadian club team, I really think that will be enough to have them committ to Canada.

How about a certain Keeper who the CSA has supported to the tune
of $ 60,000 in sport funding over the years. Played with Canada's youth teams and sat on the bench in a WC qualifier with Canada against Jamaica.

What was he name again?????

OH YA ...TRAITORBITCH!!!!!!!!! :canada::canada::canada::canada::canada::canada::c anada:

[Roogsy]

No, according to De Vos it's mostly about travel. The clubs don't want their players flying halfway around the world all the time when they have the option of playing for a country close by.


Either way, the pressure is there is it not? Whatever the reasons, the clubs are looking out for their own interests and want their players to make choices that benefit the club.

[Ageroo]

Good move for TFC...good move for Canada...but I am a huge homer.

[Beach_Red]

Wow - how shocking that a private company would tell its future employees to show a little loyalty towards what is good for the company. And besides, if a Canadian born player wants to play for Germany or whatever in his future, perhaps he should go to Germany and have them develop him. I don't see why this is TFC's responsibility. Also, as a season ticket holder I don't want to develop a Canadian player who is going to turn around and betray his country. He can fuck off for all I care!


First of all, I like the way TFC can float an idea like this on Twitter and then get some pretty good discussion.

And I agree with Super, the company is doing what's best for the company - as they should - and there is additional benefit for the country. If Canada did better internationally there would be better TV ratings, more attendance at games, more media covergae and so on.

As far as "forcing" people to deal with the CSA (I don't know anything about that organization) maybe that's the first step in improving the organization.

[C.Ronaldo]

i like it

[TFC Tifoso]

First of all, I like the way TFC can float an idea like this on Twitter and then get some pretty good discussion.

And I agree with Super, the company is doing what's best for the company - as they should - and there is additional benefit for the country. If Canada did better internationally there would be better TV ratings, more attendance at games, more media covergae and so on.

As far as "forcing" people to deal with the CSA (I don't know anything about that organization) maybe that's the first step in improving the organization.

changes start at the top, not the bottom.....

guys, I doubt players train in Canada and use our facilities with the intent to leave for a better deal...
the more likely scenario imo is player x trains in Canada with the hopes of playing for Canada.....Euro counrty takes notice of this player and asks player x to come play for them....player x, realizes that CSA is going nowhere fast and accepts Euro country offer to play for them.....CSA expresses disappoinment publicly, all the while failing to question themselves as to how a world class player can leave from under their noses and failing to address how to change that.
if a player like Hargreaves really intended to play for England do you not think he would train there and use their facilities seeing as they are like 100x better than ours?

I just think that this restriction will really limit the potential players......it would just be too hard to commit to an organization (CSA) wo has a hard time identifying their ass from their elbow....

also, the pride of wearing the country's jersey argument can't really be used here, because those players would play for Canada anyways, whether forced through the Academy or not.

look, not trying to be a hater at all here.....I love for Canada to be good in soccer, but I just think this is the wrong way to do it.....you just can't commit to something that shows no commitment itself.

[Roogsy]

But players aren't committing to the CSA, they are committing to the soccer fan in Canada by playing for their country. Isn't what this is about?

To be frank, I don't like giving players a free pass when it comes to the shortcomings of the CSA. Guys like DeRo at least have the balls to come out and speak their mind. If Begovic has a real problem with the CSA, despite taking 60k of OUR money, then be a man and come out and tell us what the problems are so we can fix it.

But taking advantage of the system to then run off and stab Canadian fans in the back should be mitigated in any way possible. This "idea" is just one of many that need to be looked at to curb the damage being done to the national program.

And yes...there need to be fixes at the CSA that would hopefully remove the need to take drastic measures like this. But until those happen, we need to plug the hole in the damn as well as we can.

[Shakes McQueen]

But players aren't committing to the CSA, they are committing to the soccer fan in Canada by playing for their country. Isn't what this is about?

To be frank, I don't like giving players a free pass when it comes to the shortcomings of the CSA. Guys like DeRo at least have the balls to come out and speak their mind. If Begovic has a real problem with the CSA, despite taking 60k of OUR money, then be a man and come out and tell us what the problems are so we can fix it.

But taking advantage of the system to then run off and stab Canadian fans in the back should be mitigated in any way possible. This "idea" is just one of many that need to be looked at to curb the damage being done to the national program.

And yes...there need to be fixes at the CSA that would hopefully remove the need to take drastic measures like this. But until those happen, we need to plug the hole in the damn as well as we can.

I agree with this 100%.

We aren't Engligh Men's National Team - we need to take steps to encourage our youth to play for us. That's the only way things will get better.

- Sciott

[Ageroo]

changes start at the top, not the bottom.....

guys, I doubt players train in Canada and use our facilities with the intent to leave for a better deal...
the more likely scenario imo is player x trains in Canada with the hopes of playing for Canada.....Euro counrty takes notice of this player and asks player x to come play for them....player x, realizes that CSA is going nowhere fast and accepts Euro country offer to play for them.....CSA expresses disappoinment publicly, all the while failing to question themselves as to how a world class player can leave from under their noses and failing to address how to change that.
if a player like Hargreaves really intended to play for England do you not think he would train there and use their facilities seeing as they are like 100x better than ours?

I just think that this restriction will really limit the potential players......it would just be too hard to commit to an organization (CSA) wo has a hard time identifying their ass from their elbow....

also, the pride of wearing the country's jersey argument can't really be used here, because those players would play for Canada anyways, whether forced through the Academy or not.

look, not trying to be a hater at all here.....I love for Canada to be good in soccer, but I just think this is the wrong way to do it.....you just can't commit to something that shows no commitment itself.

I see what your saying here and understand totally.....and know you are not trying to put a hate on for Canada...not your intention at all. I agree with your assessment for the most part.....BUT....I don't see how this really harms anything when as most have stated that the players will probably play for Canada anyway.......this just makes the transistion 100%.

I am tired of losing players to other countries....time for soccer in this country to take a stand.....and as far as I have heard TFC's interests are to develop soccer in this city and country....so I see this as a good start.

[Ageroo]

But players aren't committing to the CSA, they are committing to the soccer fan in Canada by playing for their country. Isn't what this is about?

To be frank, I don't like giving players a free pass when it comes to the shortcomings of the CSA. Guys like DeRo at least have the balls to come out and speak their mind. If Begovic has a real problem with the CSA, despite taking 60k of OUR money, then be a man and come out and tell us what the problems are so we can fix it.

But taking advantage of the system to then run off and stab Canadian fans in the back should be mitigated in any way possible. This "idea" is just one of many that need to be looked at to curb the damage being done to the national program.

And yes...there need to be fixes at the CSA that would hopefully remove the need to take drastic measures like this. But until those happen, we need to plug the hole in the damn as well as we can.

+100000000

And I thought you were just a bean counter.....;)

[Beach_Red]

changes start at the top, not the bottom.....



This is a different discussion, but I just wanted to say this is completely wrong. Change is carried out from the top - but only after pressure is applied from below.

The very definition "top" means that those people (in whatever the organization) think they have achieved and are doing well - they're at "the top" afterall, and have no reason to change anything.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yeah, "change starts at the top" is one of those vaguely smart sounding bits of conventional widsom, that doesn't stand up to actual scrutiny.

There are hundreds of examples, throughout history, of change being propagated from the bottom, and working it's way up. There are also examples of change coming from the top, but I would argue those are actually more rare.

- Scott

[Beach_Red]

^ there's usually not much incentive for change to come from the top - unless the top feels threatened in some way.

[TFC Tifoso]

But players aren't committing to the CSA, they are committing to the soccer fan in Canada by playing for their country. Isn't what this is about?

To be frank, I don't like giving players a free pass when it comes to the shortcomings of the CSA. Guys like DeRo at least have the balls to come out and speak their mind. If Begovic has a real problem with the CSA, despite taking 60k of OUR money, then be a man and come out and tell us what the problems are so we can fix it.

But taking advantage of the system to then run off and stab Canadian fans in the back should be mitigated in any way possible. This "idea" is just one of many that need to be looked at to curb the damage being done to the national program.

And yes...there need to be fixes at the CSA that would hopefully remove the need to take drastic measures like this. But until those happen, we need to plug the hole in the damn as well as we can.

you don't expect me to really buy that first line, do you? :D

come on, man....at the end of the day these players are professionals....and want to play in a professional setting. You want to know something.....I honestly can't even blame guys like Hargreaves and JDG2 for doing what they did.....the left for an attempt to play for world class soccer nations.....and did it without registering much noise of the CSA radar beforehand.....so who's problem is that?......defintiely not Hargreaves or JDG2.

Even if players do speak out, who's gonna listen? DeRo, who is one of, if not the most influencial Canadian player spoke out, and what happened?.....little to nothing.


I agree with this 100%.

We aren't Engligh Men's National Team - we need to take steps to encourage our youth to play for us. That's the only way things will get better.

- Sciott

but this isn't so much a way of encouraging as it is forcing.....encouraging would be to make some changes within the organization, have better facilities, and show that they are truly committed to the sport.


I see what your saying here and understand totally.....and know you are not trying to put a hate on for Canada...not your intention at all. I agree with your assessment for the most part.....BUT....I don't see how this really harms anything when as most have stated that the players will probably play for Canada anyway.......this just makes the transistion 100%.

I am tired of losing players to other countries....time for soccer in this country to take a stand.....and as far as I have heard TFC's interests are to develop soccer in this city and country....so I see this as a good start.

I think it would discourage a player from making such a commitment...

if I was 14-16 years old right now, and looking to join TFC Academy this would be my thinking....."MAN! I'd love to play for Canada, but I'm not so sure they want the best for soccer in this country, so I might join another Academy and keep an eye on the CSA's situation to see if it improves. If it doesn't I have an option, but I just can't tie myself into an organization that has no commitment now."

should this ruling happen, I see some young players using this thinking...

[Shakes McQueen]

but this isn't so much a way of encouraging as it is forcing.....encouraging would be to make some changes within the organization, have better facilities, and show that they are truly committed to the sport.

It isn't forcing. If they don't like it, they are free to play and train in another Academy.

- Scott

[jabbronies]

I think it would discourage a player from making such a commitment...

if I was 14-16 years old right now, and looking to join TFC Academy this would be my thinking....."MAN! I'd love to play for Canada, but I'm not so sure they want the best for soccer in this country, so I might join another Academy and keep an eye on the CSA's situation to see if it improves. If it doesn't I have an option, but I just can't tie myself into an organization that has no commitment now."

should this ruling happen, I see some young players using this thinking...

Then TFC A. would not be for you (them). Probably another team academy would be better for players that may not want to play for Canada.
There are thousands of other clubs world wide that players playing for other countries can play develop in and dozons within Canada that they can train at as well.

[Nomad]

How would it be enforceable?

[TFC Tifoso]

This is a different discussion, but I just wanted to say this is completely wrong. Change is carried out from the top - but only after pressure is applied from below.

The very definition "top" means that those people (in whatever the organization) think they have achieved and are doing well - they're at "the top" afterall, and have no reason to change anything.

Fine.....DeRo publicly said CSA is in shambles.....players have quit the national team until things improve (in other words...this is pressure from below)......what change has been made.....ZERO!......explain that please....


Yeah, "change starts at the top" is one of those vaguely smart sounding bits of conventional widsom, that doesn't stand up to actual scrutiny.

There are hundreds of examples, throughout history, of change being propagated from the bottom, and working it's way up. There are also examples of change coming from the top, but I would argue those are actually more rare.

- Scott

see above.....

[Roogsy]

Fine.....DeRo publicly said CSA is in shambles.....players have quit the national team until things improve (in other words...this is pressure from below)......what change has been made.....ZERO!......explain that please....

It's not like 1 player says something and things change. This is an issue that requires cummulative effort. If several players come out...publicly...and start blasting the CSA...if players refuse call ups....if players cause general disruption at the CSA...then things may happen.

Doing nothing will get you nothing. That's why when players like Judas leave to play for Holland and leave us hanging without any leverage against the CSA, not only am I upset that they chose not to play for Canada...I am upset because they didn't leave us any tools to fight the system.

This won't happen overnight. But it will take even longer (if at all) if people fail to make an effort.

[TFC Tifoso]

Then TFC A. would not be for you (them). Probably another team academy would be better for players that may not want to play for Canada.
There are thousands of other clubs world wide that players playing for other countries can play develop in and dozons within Canada that they can train at as well.

then it defeats the purpose of what this proposed structure is trying to accomplish....

I think some are mssing the point here.....its not an argument about whether players want to join the academy itself...its about being "forced" to making a commitment to something that is uncertain, and as it stands now, detrimental to thier international career......

[TFC Tifoso]

It's not like 1 player says something and things change. This is an issue that requires cummulative effort. If several players come out...publicly...and start blasting the CSA...if players refuse call ups....if players cause general disruption at the CSA...then things may happen.

Doing nothing will get you nothing. That's why when players like Judas leave to play for Holland and leave us hanging without any leverage against the CSA, not only am I upset that they chose not to play for Canada...I am upset because they didn't leave us any tools to fight the system.

This won't happen overnight. But it will take even longer (if at all) if people fail to make an effort.

isn't that happening already, though?

as for the second part......I am upset JDG2 is not in our red also, but I can understand why he did it. Although, I don't quite understand what you mean by "not leaving us any tools to fight the system"

the way I see it, CSA is basically an old boys club, and no player voice can change that.....they need to blow up the whole damn ship.....

[Roogsy]

You say that the ship needs to be blown up...and where is the will to do that going to come from if there is no pressure being exerted?

You need to make the connection from what you would LIKE to happen to what needs to be done to make it happen.

[mlsintoronto]

Great discussion - thank you and please continue.

Just a couple of points: this is just an idea that came up after the Lensky announcement a few days ago. The thought of us developing a player in Toronto, arranging his schooling, training, monitoring homework, instilling disciplines, possibly housing him for 4 or 5 years only to have him announce that he's playing for Portugal / Bosnia / England / Holland instead of Canada...kind of leaves me cold.

Also - those of you pointing out whether this is enforceable...you're probably right. But I'm interested in laying a groundwork and setting a level of expectation right from the outset, with the parents and with the boy. I'm one of those suckers who believes that most people are good, and if they make a commitment they will follow through. If we get taken for a ride....then I'm with Jason DeVos : we dont want them anyway.

So to be clear: this is just an idea - very raw, and clearly not well thought out. But I'm enjoying the discussion and reading with interest.

p

[Ageroo]

How would it be enforceable?

That is the question of the year......Would have to be some sort of legal document...or else it would be easy enough for them to say sure I agree...the get trained for free and then take off into the sunset later...

[Roogsy]

I think most of us get it that at the end of the day, you will probably not have much legal ground to fall back on.

But yeah, at least players in the TFC academy system will know what the team, fans and country are expecting from them. I think TFC changed the dynamic of soccer in this country in that now a heck of a lot more people will be paying attention and if you wind up playing for Ukraine...it won't really go unnoticed like it did back when Hargreaves decided to forego Canada for England. By being in the Academy, they will know that promises are being made to much more than just the provincial or national soccer associations.

[mlsintoronto]

Fine.....DeRo publicly said CSA is in shambles.....players have quit the national team until things improve (in other words...this is pressure from below)......what change has been made.....ZERO!......explain that please....



There is much happening at CSA that is in the works and not complete. The association is incredibly political, and the governance structure is at the root of their problems. This is slowly being addressed. Peter Montopoli is a good man who is trying to turn around the Titanic. And it is starting to move. But it will take years, and the impact will take longer than that to trickle down. And he will ruffle many feathers along the way. Who in soccer in Canada doesn't have strong opinions about how thing should run? Peter's job is not for the weak thats for sure!

[TFC Tifoso]

You say that the ship needs to be blown up...and where is the will to do that going to come from if there is no pressure being exerted?

You need to make the connection from what you would LIKE to happen to what needs to be done to make it happen.

I understand that. I feel pressure has already been applied from guys like DeRo as well as others who have quit the NT due to the state its in (Brennan)

The thing is......is anybody listening to them? One of the best players in our country is saying things are wrong....does that not count for anything? I understand that DeRo is only one guy....but him talking is akin to Gretzky or Lemieux saying hockey is a mess....in fact, Gretzky did, and they organized a summit aorund it to fix these problems before 2002 Olympics.

I know that soccer is nowhere near hockey's level, but then again, that could be an example of the commitment some people have to the sport....

[Roogsy]

There is much happening at CSA that is in the works and not complete. The association is incredibly political, and the governance structure is at the root of their problems. This is slowly being addressed. Peter Montopoli is a good man who is trying to turn around the Titanic. And it is starting to move. But it will take years, and the impact will take longer than that to trickle down. And he will ruffle many feathers along the way. Who in soccer in Canada doesn't have strong opinions about how thing should run? Peter's job is not for the weak thats for sure!

Strong opinions about soccer? You're mad!

[Ageroo]

I'm one of those suckers who believes that most people are good, and if they make a commitment they will follow through.

Make sure you don't accept handshakes......We all know how that worked out for Jerry Maguire...:rolleyes:

[TFC Tifoso]

There is much happening at CSA that is in the works and not complete. The association is incredibly political, and the governance structure is at the root of their problems. This is slowly being addressed. Peter Montopoli is a good man who is trying to turn around the Titanic. And it is starting to move. But it will take years, and the impact will take longer than that to trickle down. And he will ruffle many feathers along the way. Who in soccer in Canada doesn't have strong opinions about how thing should run? Peter's job is not for the weak thats for sure!

this much is true.....it is hard to change something that is so fracured, and I really hope there is something in the works....unfortunately, this is also something that cannot be judged by us until we see concrete proof of these changes, so if there really is something going on, I have to say that's good news!

"The association is incredibly political, and the governance structure is at the root of their problems."

Now as for this......it is something I had a strong feeling was true, and believe this is the very root of the problem with soccer in this country.....I feel that this must get fixed before any progress can be made, which is why I also feel that then new proposal for the academy is basically useless, until the root of the problem gets fixed. I really hope it does, because I don't want to lose any more world class players to other countries...I want to see a strong Canada!! :canada:

[denime]

So lats say a 13 years old landed emigrant with a quality of Messi walks into TFC office and do a tryouts for them.TFC jumps all over him and see they just got a rough diamond in their hands,then Mr.Paul comes around and asks him and his parents if he would play for Canada,answer is no,kid was born in another country where he developed already to be good as he is right now,what do you do Mr.Paul?

1. Tell him to go somewhere else,since he is not Canadian enough for your standards,

2. or you make sure he stays, trains,develops in TFC academy so one day he can play for TFC 1st team so you can eventually sell him for $$$$$ to some rich European Club.



It is a good idea to push for this,but again TFC is not in business of developing Canada's NTs and it should stay that way.
Give me a freaking play offs or MLS Cup first Mr.Paul and don't worry about young atletehes who by the time they make certain decisions they will be adults anyway.

I want to see MLS CUP at BMO field before you guys take over the CSA!!!!

[Roogsy]

I can't see why they can't do both.

The Academy system does not impact the current team we field at games. The academy will hopefully influence the roster in 6-10 years.

So in the meantime, what do measures the academy takes today to express it's desire that it's players play for the national team do to the current roster of TFC players? Nothing, that's what.

And nobody can say what it will do to the roster in 10 years so why worry about it?

The point is if TFC can help stem the drain of players overseas now, while we all wait for the CSA to get fixed...why wouldn't they take those steps? It's not like it will hinder or help our ability to make progress in the MLS.

[Nodoubtguy]

I'm sorry but I don't get why we would want to try to get kids from other countries to commit for Canada when we cry about our guys playing somewhere else.....makes no sense to me. If the kid is Canadian born and raised, yeah go for it.....

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm sorry but I don't get why we would want to try to get kids from other countries to commit for Canada when we cry about our guys playing somewhere else.....makes no sense to me. If the kid is Canadian born and raised, yeah go for it.....

I don't think the idea is to poach kids from other countries - I assume this agreement wouldn't apply to them.

- Scott

[Rudi]

So lats say a 13 years old landed emigrant with a quality of Messi walks into TFC office and do a tryouts for them.TFC jumps all over him and see they just got a rough diamond in their hands,then Mr.Paul comes around and asks him and his parents if he would play for Canada,answer is no,kid was born in another country where he developed already to be good as he is right now,what do you do Mr.Paul?

1. Tell him to go somewhere else,since he is not Canadian enough for your standards,

2. or you make sure he stays, trains,develops in TFC academy so one day he can play for TFC 1st team so you can eventually sell him for $$$$$ to some rich European Club.



It is a good idea to push for this,but again TFC is not in business of developing Canada's NTs and it should stay that way.
Give me a freaking play offs or MLS Cup first Mr.Paul and don't worry about young atletehes who by the time they make certain decisions they will be adults anyway.

I want to see MLS CUP at BMO field before you guys take over the CSA!!!!
I think it's pretty obvious that TFC Academy would expect the Canadian kids to play for Canada.

The foreign kids would be expected to aim to represent their own country should they be good enough. Professionally, they'll be expected to bleed TFC red.

Why is this so hard to understand?

[Roogsy]

Nobody is really talking about kids from other countries Sal. I mean...most of the kids in the academy system aren't being brought in from Argentina now are they?

And nobody here really thinks that TFC Academy is going to pressure some diamond in the rough they find from Portugal, who for whatever reason wants to be in the TFC academy system, that they will insist come hell or high water he play for Canada. That's not what is being discussed here.

The plain fact is that a great majority of the kids in the academy system ARE Canadian. And with the time, effort and money that TFC academy is putting into them, it's not far-fetched to say that they ask for some kind of honour-bound commitment to the Canadian team. Is it legally enforceable? I think all the discussion here has pointed to likely not. But Paul's point of instilling some loyalty to the national cause will probably make an impression.

I don't understand why these conversations wind up heading in the direction of the unlikely "exceptions" to what is the more likely scenario. Exceptions have less weight when discussing the merit of an idea. Let's look at the most likely scenarios, not the least likely ones and that way we can determine the validity of this plan.

I mean really...how many Spanish or Italian or German or Portuguese (or any major soccer country) kids who are really that good, will be making their way into the TFC academy? Aren't they more likely to be in a European system?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

im just concerned that the CSA will think that they then dont have to do anything because the clubs are taking care of things

[Nodoubtguy]

Nobody is really talking about kids from other countries Sal. I mean...most of the kids in the academy system aren't being brought in from Argentina now are they?

And nobody here really thinks that TFC Academy is going to pressure some diamond in the rough they find from Portugal, who for whatever reason wants to be in the TFC academy system, that they will insist come hell or high water he play for Canada. That's not what is being discussed here.

The plain fact is that a great majority of the kids in the academy system ARE Canadian. And with the time, effort and money that TFC academy is putting into them, it's not far-fetched to say that they ask for some kind of honour-bound commitment to the Canadian team. Is it legally enforceable? I think all the discussion here has pointed to likely not. But Paul's point of instilling some loyalty to the national cause will probably make an impression.

I don't understand why these conversations wind up heading in the direction of the unlikely "exceptions" to what is the more likely scenario. Exceptions have less weight when discussing the merit of an idea. Let's look at the most likely scenarios, not the least likely ones and that way we can determine the validity of this plan.

I haven't ready thru the whole thread but I did see some posts mentioning foreign kids.

If were talking Canadians, yeah.....go for it, but I have no clue how it could be enforced. Even if there is a document that the kids family signs, they could always come later and say they signed it only so their kid would be allowed to be on the team.

[mlsintoronto]

Like I said...we haven't decided on a policy or anything like that...so the scenarios described are good questions. Another thing...situations like Sanyang this season could arise, so we're certainly not limiting ourselves from that perspective. If we brought in a foreign player and put him in the academy then of course he wouldn't have a Canadian passport. Like I said...this would probably have to be looser than a rock solid policy.

[T_Mizz]

I think people are looking too extremely at this arguement, first off when is a player like Messi going to walk in and say I want to play for TFC academy? I mean that's an extreme hypothetical to say the least. Second, once the academy expands like it's supposed to soon down to U-14 you'll have 12-13 year olds dealing with this. To put this in perspective that is the age that JDG 2 went to the Feeyenoord academy, so after playing/training/living in Canada for his six year academy career I wouldn't say its that likely he'll pull a JDG 2 and say he feels more __________. Third, I didn't think that MLS ' academies were able to be residential so the kids would be Canadian anyway right?

[Roogsy]

It was mentioned in the thread because that's the objection people have with the plan and so they bring it up. But what they fail to mention is that it is a scenario so unlikely, it doesn't address the large majority of kids that will be going through the TFC academy system.

My guess is even if TFC were to implement a plan like the one discussed...they'd know that kids from other countries coming into the academy probably won't be asked the same. However...if the kid is Canadian but has the FIFA approved ability to play for another country, looks like TFC is going to do what it can to make sure the kid and his family knows that he is expected to commit to the Canadian cause. I like that.

[mlsintoronto]

im just concerned that the CSA will think that they then dont have to do anything because the clubs are taking care of things

some would suggest that if they didnt do anything in elite player development then that would be an improvement!

Also, as a complete non-sequiter, this (http://irishsoccerinsider.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/french-and-irish-fall-out-over-box-incident/)made me happy:

[Roogsy]

:smilielol5:

[Nodoubtguy]

Also, as a complete non-sequiter, this (http://irishsoccerinsider.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/french-and-irish-fall-out-over-box-incident/)made me happy:

lol....now I'm smiling!!! Thanks Paul

[Whoop]

Well one day I hope TFC Academy can produce players as good as Messi or attract players like him. I mean that is the goal, no?

But hey, it's a wishful dream.

The #1 goal of the TFC Academy should be to produce players for the TFC. A likely by product will be producing players for the Canadian team as most players in the Academy would be Canadian. But if foreign kids want to join the TFC Academy, I say great.

I'm will Sal with this arguments.

[Parkdale]

lol....now I'm smiling!!! Thanks Paul


that was fun. someone must be pretty confident in their job security to crack wise with the president of France.

[Phil]

That was pretty funny.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/121/sarkozybushphotoshoot6pov0.jpg

[Parkdale]

Also, as a complete non-sequiter, this (http://irishsoccerinsider.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/french-and-irish-fall-out-over-box-incident/)made me happy:


side note:

The Irish Prime Minister and HIS WIFE (http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/91339449.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D041EBEBAD0225C91E 8F19FF6EE6EDDFDB56774CEB151C3DEAE30A760B0D811297)
The French Prime Minister and HIS WIFE (http://desourcesure.com/uploadv3/sarkozy_bruni_plage.jpg)

[denime]

Nobody is really talking about kids from other countries Sal. I mean...most of the kids in the academy system aren't being brought in from Argentina now are they?

And nobody here really thinks that TFC Academy is going to pressure some diamond in the rough they find from Portugal, who for whatever reason wants to be in the TFC academy system, that they will insist come hell or high water he play for Canada. That's not what is being discussed here.

The plain fact is that a great majority of the kids in the academy system ARE Canadian. And with the time, effort and money that TFC academy is putting into them, it's not far-fetched to say that they ask for some kind of honour-bound commitment to the Canadian team. Is it legally enforceable? I think all the discussion here has pointed to likely not. But Paul's point of instilling some loyalty to the national cause will probably make an impression.

I don't understand why these conversations wind up heading in the direction of the unlikely "exceptions" to what is the more likely scenario. Exceptions have less weight when discussing the merit of an idea. Let's look at the most likely scenarios, not the least likely ones and that way we can determine the validity of this plan.

I mean really...how many Spanish or Italian or German or Portuguese (or any major soccer country) kids who are really that good, will be making their way into the TFC academy? Aren't they more likely to be in a European system?


But the kid is landed emigrant and soon to be Canadian ,and my understanding is we do expect the 12-13 years old landed emigrant and future Canadian to play for Canada.

If not, why is everybody pissed at former landed emigrant now Canadian Asmir Begovic. ;)

It is not just black or white when it comes to this issue.

In my opinion this is much deeper that soccer,otherwise we wouldn't have 2 and 3 generation Canadians wearing the jerseys of their grandparents countries,and celebrating when they win,even though most of them never went to the "Old Country" in their entire life.

[Whoop]

In my opinion this is much deeper that soccer,otherwise we wouldn't have 2 and 3 generation Canadians wearing the jerseys of their grandparents countries,and celebrating when they win,even though most of them never went to the "Old Country" in their entire life.

Definitely agree there.

Damn glory hunters.

[Rudi]

side note:

The Irish Prime Minister and HIS WIFE (http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/91339449.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D041EBEBAD0225C91E 8F19FF6EE6EDDFDB56774CEB151C3DEAE30A760B0D811297)
The French Prime Minister and HIS WIFE (http://desourcesure.com/uploadv3/sarkozy_bruni_plage.jpg)
France wins.

[Rudi]

But the kid is landed emigrant and soon to be Canadian ,and my understanding is we do expect the 12-13 years old landed emigrant and future Canadian to play for Canada.

If not, why is everybody pissed at former landed emigrant now Canadian Asmir Begovic. ;)
Probably because he played for Canada in official FIFA competitions, received funding as a Canadian athlete, and even made commercials declaring how Canada allowed him to pursue his love for the game.

[Roogsy]

In my opinion this is much deeper that soccer,otherwise we wouldn't have 2 and 3 generation Canadians wearing the jerseys of their grandparents countries,and celebrating when they win,even though most of them never went to the "Old Country" in their entire life.

I too agree as well.

However, I view this as a stop-gap measure, not as a solution.

We are plugging a hole in the dam, but we still need to fix the dam itself.

[denime]

TFC Academy kids,players should BLEED RED first and foremost,everything else should be secondary for the TFC FO.

If they want to play for other country so be it,I don't want a player in NT who is not proud to whear maple leaf ,but if the same one is a hell of a player who gives 100% for TFC every single game,he is good in my books.Becaosue that what the TFC academy job is in the first place,Develop a future TFC player.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

some would suggest that if they didnt do anything in elite player development then that would be an improvement!

Also, as a complete non-sequiter, this (http://irishsoccerinsider.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/french-and-irish-fall-out-over-box-incident/)made me happy:
HAHAHA :rofl: :thumbsup:

[Shakes McQueen]

Also, as a complete non-sequiter, this (http://irishsoccerinsider.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/french-and-irish-fall-out-over-box-incident/)made me happy:

THAT WAS HILARIOUS. As if that actually took place as part of an official diplomatic communique.

- Scott

[SteeltownBhoy]

I think the answer is, as DeVos pointed out, cup tie your diamonds in the rough at an early age. Canada should play the FIFA dates and have some of the young, budding superstars ont the bench. Near the end of the game, or in extra time, sub them in!!!
Instant Canadian Senior International.

If Mitchel had have done this in the 3-0 loss to Jamaica, Begovic would a Canadian Senior International right now!!

Nobody thinking at the CSA!!!

[jabbronies]

TFC Academy kids,players should BLEED RED first and foremost,everything else should be secondary for the TFC FO.

If they want to play for other country so be it,I don't want a player in NT who is not proud to whear maple leaf ,but if the same one is a hell of a player who gives 100% for TFC every single game,he is good in my books.Becaosue that what the TFC academy job is in the first place,Develop a future TFC player.


True, but TFC also has a responsibility to produce homegrown talent as well. Wasn;t that the purpose of TFC? to bring Canadian players back home and develop Canadian player in order to make this countries game better?

Canadians do not have many options to develop thier skills at a professional level. This is thier place to do so. Once they reach that professional level and are, in a perfect situation, playing for the CMNT, they have a better chance of staying with TFC as well.

Someone who trains with TFCA, then gets capped by, lets say Bosnia. They are more likley to leave for Europe because said National team would rather them play with thier compatriots then play overseas. Thus TFC looses out as well as the CMNT.

[Macksam]

As far TFC move goes,downright stupid,they should work on the future TFC players not Canada NT,let CSA do their job Paul.
Show me one other successful country soccer wise that has their national governing body developing players? Even Lenarduzzi from the Whitecaps said the governing bodies should stop trying to develop players. It's expensive and hard to do.

[Macksam]

not too sure I like this.....would you play for an academy who is forcing you to play for an organization that is in shambles?....

You shouldn't be forced to represent your country so it should be a non-issue. If it is an issue, especially to Canadian born players, than they can gtfo.

[RedsYNWA]

I think it has been mentioned but if an academy player chooses not to play for Canada ,TFC can give him a bill of whatever it took for the kid to be housed/trained etc.
As long an the domestic player quota remains in the MLS this is a great move by TFC.

[billyfly]

O, land of blue unending skies,
Mountains strong and sparkling snow,
A scent of freedom in the wind,
O'er the emerald fields below.

To thee we brought our hopes, our dreams,
For thee we stand together,
Our land of peace, where proudly flies,
The Maple Leaf forever.

Chorus:
Long may it wave, and grace our own,
Blue skies and stormy weather,
Within my heart, above my home,
The Maple Leaf forever!

O, Maple Leaf around the world,
You speak as you rise high above,
Of courage, peace and quiet strength,
Of the Canada that I love.

Remind us all, our union bound
By ties we cannot sever,
Bright flag revered on every ground,
The Maple Leaf forever!

[denime]

I think it has been mentioned but if an academy player chooses not to play for Canada ,TFC can give him a bill of whatever it took for the kid to be housed/trained etc.
As long an the domestic player quota remains in the MLS this is a great move by TFC.

You are missing the point here,TFC is developing kids to be TFC players first and foremost,not Canadian NT.
If the kid becomes a TFC starter and decides not to play for Canada,he is still TFC player and $ they invested in him is not wasted since he is a TFC Senior player.

Other than that,from the legal standpoint I don't think in politically correct Canada this can work anyway.

BTW nice avatar,what is it? It doesn't look like Maple leaf to me

[jabbronies]

True, then maybe they have a quota that needs to be fill. So if there are 18 roster spots - 12 of them are for Canadian NT development spots. the other 6 can be "International spots".


You are missing the point here,TFC is developing kids to be TFC players first and foremost,not Canadian NT.
If the kid becomes a TFC starter and decides not to play for Canada,he is still TFC player and $ they invested in him is not wasted since he is a TFC Senior player.

Other than that,from the legal standpoint I don't think in politically correct Canada this can work anyway.

BTW nice avatar,what is it? It doesn't look like Maple leaf to me

[TFC Tifoso]

You shouldn't be forced to represent your country so it should be a non-issue. If it is an issue, especially to Canadian born players, than they can gtfo.

you shouldn't be forced to play for Canada just because you enroll in TFC Academy either......the two should be 100% independant....

[boban]

Like I said...we haven't decided on a policy or anything like that...so the scenarios described are good questions. Another thing...situations like Sanyang this season could arise, so we're certainly not limiting ourselves from that perspective. If we brought in a foreign player and put him in the academy then of course he wouldn't have a Canadian passport. Like I said...this would probably have to be looser than a rock solid policy.
Paul, just give them the evil eye.
Should be enough to scare the shit out of him to play for Canada. lol

[mlsintoronto]

you shouldn't be forced to play for Canada just because you enroll in TFC Academy either......the two should be 100% independant....

you don't enroll...you get invited. :canada:

[ag futbol]

News flash: other countries are doing this type of this explicitly or implicitly to ensure development of their own talent. Time for Canada to up the ante. Start by sending Asmir Begovic the bill for his sport Canada funding.

Should EVERY kid at the academy have to commit to Canada? No, leave a small number of spots for kids who are international or declare themselves as internationals from the get-go. I have no problem with a kid who has grown up in Canada representing someone else, but be above board about it from the start and don’t expect TFC to help you out unless you are an exceptional talent.

I support this 100%. Don’t like the terms? Go find your own training.

[trane]

mlstoronto

I agree with what you are doing. In many ways the development of canadian tallent and TFC futures success are interconnected. This could be a step in the right direction.

[TFC Tifoso]

you don't enroll...you get invited. :canada:

fair enough.....point being, I think the two should be independant....

Paul, would you see a situation where a player would refuse to come to the academy, for the reason that they would be tied to an unstable CSA?

I can see it happening, and if that is the case, then TFC loses out on a potentially great player for trying to help the NT....this really hurts TFC, which should always be the priority.

I don't think this is out of the realm of possibility.....TFC needs to look after their own interests right now....if a great player come into TFCA, and the CSA can't pluck a good one out of their own backyard then what the hell are they doing over there?!?!

Maybe in 5-10 years down the road if/when CSA gets their act together, somethign like this can be considered. Maybe by then, getting to CMNT through the TFCA can be the carrot that attracts young players to the Academy...if it happens now, I really believe it would do more harm than good.

[T_Mizz]

Pretty sure those "great players" you're talking about won't start to come and make this an issue for at least those 5-10 years down the road, as it stands now the Academy is almost entirely Canadian an if I'm not mistaken MLS academies aren't allowed to be residential like you'd expect from major academies elsewhere.

[mlsintoronto]

Tfc academy IS residential. That's new but it's happening.

[T_Mizz]

^ No way that's excellent news I heard that they were switching their schools and such to accomodate training but this is taking it to a whole new level
Also anyone know what's this with Stuart Neely and the Thunder Bay Chill?

[TFC Tifoso]

Pretty sure those "great players" you're talking about won't start to come and make this an issue for at least those 5-10 years down the road, as it stands now the Academy is almost entirely Canadian an if I'm not mistaken MLS academies aren't allowed to be residential like you'd expect from major academies elsewhere.

probably not, but its a decision they'll have to make now, as they're probably about 15-16 now......sometimes you have to look at the big picture.....

[Macksam]

you shouldn't be forced to play for Canada just because you enroll in TFC Academy either......the two should be 100% independant....
I have no problem with this. If you're born here, you definately should. If you're a foreigner, I can let it go, but I doubt this rule applies to them.

[TFCtoMUFC]

While the sentiment is great, I agree with UltraSuperMegaMo... I don't want TFC dictating who plays for who.

I mean I would be pissed if TFC missed out on a great player for this reason.

Exactly. I also can't be mad at Owen Hargreaves when we are doing something just as stupid. You can't force players to commit to Canada. We may miss out on some talent due to this.

[Macksam]

Paul, would you see a situation where a player would refuse to come to the academy, for the reason that they would be tied to an unstable CSA?

I doubt that would arise with a Canadian born player.


Exactly. I also can't be mad at Owen Hargreaves when we are doing something just as stupid. You can't force players to commit to Canada. We may miss out on some talent due to this.
WTF? Owen Hargreaves is a little bitch that talks with a fake English accent. Also, why are all you guys acting like every talented kid who plays soccer in Canada is a landed immigrant? Like seriously...

[Rudi]

I also can't be mad at Owen Hargreaves when we are doing something just as stupid.
What a profoundly retarded statement.

[ag futbol]

Tfc academy IS residential. That's new but it's happening.
Great news, that will go a long way to improving the quality of the program.

Any other big news afoot? (for the academy)

[TFC Tifoso]

I doubt that would arise with a Canadian born player.


WTF? Owen Hargreaves is a little bitch that talks with a fake English accent. Also, why are all you guys acting like every talented kid who plays soccer in Canada is a landed immigrant? Like seriously...

Why?.....its is already happening.....players are refusing to play for/retiring from the NT because of the CSA's ineptness....

[Macksam]

Why?.....its is already happening.....players are refusing to play for/retiring from the NT because of the CSA's ineptness....
Those defects were Canadian born players developed outside the Canadian system.

A Canadian-born player coming through the TFC youth system is what I'm referring to. A Canadian born player who was raised in Canada, developed by a Canadian club and playing for said club will not have an issue representing Canada so your worries over a Canadian-born player refusing to be apart of TFC academy because he would have to represent Canada are unfounded. Your argument holds some weight on landed immigrants though, if even that.

[deschamp86]

Those defects were Canadian born players developed outside the Canadian system.

A Canadian-born player coming through the TFC youth system is what I'm referring to. A Canadian born player who was raised in Canada, developed by a Canadian club and playing for said club will not have an issue representing Canada so your worries over a Canadian-born player refusing to be apart of TFC academy because he would have to represent Canada are unfounded. Your argument holds some weight on landed immigrants though, if even that.

I believe there is already a player on TFC that was born and raised in Canada that played for Trinidad U20s. Don't recall his name right now, so obviously its still an issue.

[Macksam]

I believe there is already a player on TFC that was born and raised in Canada that played for Trinidad U20s. Don't recall his name right now, so obviously its still an issue.
I'm pretty sure that guy, Mcloed I believe his name was, wasn't good enough for the Canadian U-20 camp so he went to Trinidad's.

[denime]

I'm pretty sure that guy, Mcloed I believe his name was, wasn't good enough for the Canadian U-20 camp so he went to Trinidad's.
So was Hagreaves too,don't you get it by now.
It is not up to TFC to do CSA job. :facepalm:

[TFC Tifoso]

Those defects were Canadian born players developed outside the Canadian system.

A Canadian-born player coming through the TFC youth system is what I'm referring to. A Canadian born player who was raised in Canada, developed by a Canadian club and playing for said club will not have an issue representing Canada so your worries over a Canadian-born player refusing to be apart of TFC academy because he would have to represent Canada are unfounded. Your argument holds some weight on landed immigrants though, if even that.

Why?...what is your reasoning?...

[SilverSamurai]

I hope this goes through.
If they don't want to play for Canada, go find another academy.
You play for your country, NOT the organization.
When have you heard someone say they're proud to play for the COC, Hockey Canada of the English FA?

I think the same rules should apply to immigrants (not if they just got off the boat and are like 16)
If you think our country is good enough to live in, then you should have no problem representing it. I'd hate the idea "Canadians of convenience" like we already have here...

Their needs to be caution in regards to non-citizens (residents) playing for the academy and how that would affect them. Only option I can think of is having them pay if they don't want to commit to the CMNT. This way they'd still count as domestics under MLS rules.

As for the argument of it not being TFC's responsibility to train better Canadian players, the whole point of a top tier club/league is so it benefits the nation league.
REMEMBER: MLS was set up to help the US national squad in better developing talent. Why can't TFC and the Whitecaps (and hopefully eventually Montreal) do the same for Canada.

Lastly, I don't see how playing for the CMNT can affect a players professional career. Sure the European teams don't like it, but why is it that only Canadian players have an issue with it? Every other country in the Americas seems to tell the team to f*ck off and plays for their country.
Ex. Marcel DeJong and Lionel Messi

[J .]

I think its a great idea. Canada needs do do things differently and if TFC and the other pro clubs do this it will do a lot of good for TFC, Canada and support in the country. If they miss out on a handful of players, but are able to improve the overall capabilities of Canada, its better for the team and the country.

[Dirk Diggler]

Good ... I hope TFC enforces this policy on its academy players. Lets be honest ... how many Messis are going to leave their home country to come play for TFC? That is a non-issue to begin with ... not to mention that the academy is invitation based ... meaning they can decide what kids should be considered Canadians as opposed to international (like Sanyang) before signing them to contracts.

[UltraSuperMegaMo]

Don't know if anyone's reading the version of this thread on the V's board:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20626

Apparently, TFC Academy has already lost a player, Ricardo Ferreira, to the Porto U17 setup and he went on to play for Portugal at the U17 level. I have to admit the issue's not as hypothetical as I assumed.

[denime]

Good ... I hope TFC enforces this policy on its academy players. Lets be honest ... how many Messis are going to leave their home country to come play for TFC? That is a non-issue to begin with ... not to mention that the academy is invitation based ... meaning they can decide what kids should be considered Canadians as opposed to international (like Sanyang) before signing them to contracts.

This might be an answer on your question.



Don't know if anyone's reading the version of this thread on the V's board:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20626

Apparently, TFC Academy has already lost a player, Ricardo Ferreira, to the Porto U17 setup and he went on to play for Portugal at the U17 level. I have to admit the issue's not as hypothetical as I assumed.

If a kid is really good enough TFC doesn't have to enforce anything they will leave TFC and Canada anyway,and this the reality of soccer in Canada.

[BakaGaijin]

I like this idea for the Academy. If you are a Canadian citizen, then you should be expected to represent Canada.

I also strongly believe that we should end dual nationality in this country. Either you are Canadian or you are not. We have too many Canadians of convenience. For anyone who chooses to represent another country.......please return your passport and don't come back.

[SilverSamurai]

Don't know if anyone's reading the version of this thread on the V's board:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20626

Apparently, TFC Academy has already lost a player, Ricardo Ferreira, to the Porto U17 setup and he went on to play for Portugal at the U17 level. I have to admit the issue's not as hypothetical as I assumed.

But if this was in place, he likely wouldn't have signed with the TFC academy thus freeing up a spot for a potential player who could go on to represent Canada.
If someone has no interest in Canada, then good riddance. Let's not waste our time with them. We shouldn't have to put up with this Canadians of convenience crap.

[SilverSamurai]

I like this idea for the Academy. If you are a Canadian citizen, then you should be expected to represent Canada.

I also strongly believe that we should end dual nationality in this country. Either you are Canadian or you are not. We have too many Canadians of convenience. For anyone who chooses to represent another country.......please return your passport and don't come back.
+1.
I agree 100% with this.

[T_Mizz]

probably not, but its a decision they'll have to make now, as they're probably about 15-16 now......sometimes you have to look at the big picture.....
Actually I meant we won't start getting the great messi-esque youth players for anoter 5-10 years.

[T_Mizz]

Don't know if anyone's reading the version of this thread on the V's board:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20626

Apparently, TFC Academy has already lost a player, Ricardo Ferreira, to the Porto U17 setup and he went on to play for Portugal at the U17 level. I have to admit the issue's not as hypothetical as I assumed.
So then with Mcleod for T & T and now Ferreira to Portugal this makes two in just the initial class of TFC academy players for those of you keeping score at home.

[denime]

But if this was in place, he likely wouldn't have signed with the TFC academy thus freeing up a spot for a potential player who could go on to represent TORONTO FC. FIXED
If someone has no interest in TORONTO FC (FIXED), then good riddance. Let's not waste our time with them. We shouldn't have to put up with this Canadians of convenience crap.

It is all abut TFC Academy not Canada NT Academy,can't you ppl see the difference FFS. :facepalm:
TFC should do what is best for them,period.

[TFC Tifoso]

Actually I meant we won't start getting the great messi-esque youth players for anoter 5-10 years.


So then with Mcleod for T & T and now Ferreira to Portugal this makes two in just the initial class of TFC academy players for those of you keeping score at home.

these two posts kinda contradict each other, don't you think?.....


It is all abut TFC Academy not Canada NT Academy,can't you ppl see the difference FFS. :facepalm:
TFC should do what is best for them,period.

Exactly! People need to take off their Canada hats for a second......this is 100% not about Canada pride or pride of playing with the NT....it is STRICTLY about TFC potentially losing players for the Academy, and thus TFC, due to the fact that they will be tied to an inept CSA. It has happened with some of our senior players already (DeRo, Brennan) and apparently with two kids as well.....you can choose to ignore the facts if you wish...

[Phil]

Ideally playing on a national level would help improve the player so it seems reasonable to want to encourage that.

By activly encouraging participation in the national program I would think that it empowers TFC to be able to exercise some leverage over the CSA and players when it comes to confilicts in scheduling on those important games.

[T_Mizz]

these two posts kinda contradict each other, don't you think?.....
Not entirely neither of these kids are messi caliber although really who is?
But this does kind of support the idea of getting the commitment early when they entire so we don't have to deal with this later. Especially since it appears with ferreira that if he's good enough to be playing for portugal's U-17s he's good enough to leave our academy for Porto's

[TFC Tifoso]

Not entirely neither of these kids are messi caliber although really who is?
But this does kind of support the idea of getting the commitment early when they entire so we don't have to deal with this later. Especially since it appears with ferreira that if he's good enough to be playing for portugal's U-17s he's good enough to leave our academy for Porto's

well at best, nobody can make an accurate assesment on the kids' potential.

not sure what you're trying to say with the bolded part, though....from the way I see it, if the commitment to the NT is asked, then we might never see these players at all...

[Fort York Redcoat]

you shouldn't be forced to play for Canada just because you enroll in TFC Academy either......the two should be 100% independant....

Yeah and being a part of the national team represented by the CSA should be a superceding goal for Canadian kids. What's your point? This is a rare scenario in the world where a club can inspire the importance of playing for their country. Good for them. Things are backwards if a priority is to be on the only present top level team in the country vs being the primary select of the nation.


News flash: other countries are doing this type of this explicitly or implicitly to ensure development of their own talent. Time for Canada to up the ante. Start by sending Asmir Begovic the bill for his sport Canada funding.

Should EVERY kid at the academy have to commit to Canada? No, leave a small number of spots for kids who are international or declare themselves as internationals from the get-go. I have no problem with a kid who has grown up in Canada representing someone else, but be above board about it from the start and don’t expect TFC to help you out unless you are an exceptional talent.

I support this 100%. Don’t like the terms? Go find your own training.

Well said.

[boban]

It is all abut TFC Academy not Canada NT Academy,can't you ppl see the difference FFS. :facepalm:
TFC should do what is best for them,period.


Exactly! People need to take off their Canada hats for a second......this is 100% not about Canada pride or pride of playing with the NT....it is STRICTLY about TFC potentially losing players for the Academy, and thus TFC, due to the fact that they will be tied to an inept CSA. It has happened with some of our senior players already (DeRo, Brennan) and apparently with two kids as well.....you can choose to ignore the facts if you wish...
My vast majority interest in TFC is how it contributes to the improvement of the national team. I mean I like the atmosphere and they should win some championships and all, but I would get a waay bigger hard-on if Canada did some damage at a World Cup Finals. You need strong domestic clubs for that. Clubs that promote and support the national program.

[TFC Tifoso]

Yeah and being a part of the national team represented by the CSA should be a superceding goal for Canadian kids. What's your point? This is a rare scenario in the world where a club can inspire the importance of playing for their country. Good for them. Things are backwards if a priority is to be on the only present top level team in the country vs being the primary select of the nation.

I'll just quote myself again, because I don't want to write the same thing out yet again.... a lot of you are missing the point here....I am not arguing against the pride of playing for Canada...that is a given for any kid playing in this country at a competitive level.....but there is a reality involved as well....a lot are talking fantasy here.....

look, we just missed out on the World Cup with what may have been our most talented squad for a long time.....why?....our association is in shambles...

and let's not forget, in two years, we will not be the only top level team in the country...there will be two (or maybe even three)....


Exactly! People need to take off their Canada hats for a second......this is 100% not about Canada pride or pride of playing with the NT....it is STRICTLY about TFC potentially losing players for the Academy, and thus TFC, due to the fact that they will be tied to an inept CSA. It has happened with some of our senior players already (DeRo, Brennan) and apparently with two kids as well.....you can choose to ignore the facts if you wish...

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'll just quote myself again, because I don't want to write the same thing out yet again.... a lot of you are missing the point here....I am not arguing against the pride of playing for Canada...that is a given for any kid playing in this country at a competitive level.....but there is a reality involved as well....a lot are talking fantasy here.....

look, we just missed out on the World Cup with what may have been our most talented squad for a long time.....why?....our association is in shambles...

and let's not forget, in two years, we will not be the only top level team in the country...there will be two (or maybe even three)....

This not strictly one or the other. There are different points being outlined here.

It is presently NOT a given that kids are proud to play for Canada or we wouldn't be reading about the exodus of kids leaving. This is why it's a talking point and why some would support a combination of club and country when one is so much weaker than the other as an organization.

In a perfect situation the two would not be mixed but in the present poor state of our country if our club wants to lend a hand that's my priority instead of being one or two kids better than Vancouver in however many years.

This is a small action with the right motives that if we're being honest won't be a huge difference but it's positive nonetheless.

[TFC Tifoso]

This not strictly one or the other. There are different points being outlined here.

It is presently NOT a given that kids are proud to play for Canada or we wouldn't be reading about the exodus of kids leaving. This is why it's a talking point and why some would support a combination of club and country when one is so much weaker than the other as an organization.

In a perfect situation the two would not be mixed but in the present poor state of our country if our club wants to lend a hand that's my priority instead of being one or two kids better than Vancouver in however many years.

This is a small action with the right motives that if we're being honest won't be a huge difference but it's positive nonetheless.


but there is an old saying "you have to clean up your own backyard before you knock on your neighbour's door"

we all know not everything is rosy in TFC land.....I'd like to see them settle it first before they lend a hand to an organization (CSA) who really should be leading TFC, not vice versa....

anyways, i think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.....

[SilverSamurai]

It is all abut TFC Academy not Canada NT Academy,can't you ppl see the difference FFS. :facepalm:
TFC should do what is best for them,period.

So by your reasoning, MLS wouldn't need to exist. It would have no benefit. Domestic leagues are set up to help national teams.
MLS was created as part of the package to for the '94 WC. So if the USMNT has a MLS as a development (pro) league, why can't TFC and Vancouver do the same for the CMNT? This doesn't mean the CMNT is going to be stacked full of N.American based players. It'll still likely be a mix of Euro/MLS players.
Let's be honest here, short of a HUGE change in the cap, a Messi like player won't play here. Therfore why waste time/$$$/resources to someone that won't commit?


these two posts kinda contradict each other, don't you think?.....



Exactly! People need to take off their Canada hats for a second......this is 100% not about Canada pride or pride of playing with the NT....it is STRICTLY about TFC potentially losing players for the Academy, and thus TFC, due to the fact that they will be tied to an inept CSA. It has happened with some of our senior players already (DeRo, Brennan) and apparently with two kids as well.....you can choose to ignore the facts if you wish...
DeRo and Brennan refused to play the other WCQ because of Mitchell. They then said no to the GC because they wanted to concentrate on TFC. They both said they'd consider playing for the CMNT in the future. If they do or not is a dif story though...

My vast majority interest in TFC is how it contributes to the improvement of the national team. I mean I like the atmosphere and they should win some championships and all, but I would get a waay bigger hard-on if Canada did some damage at a World Cup Finals. You need strong domestic clubs for that. Clubs that promote and support the national program.
+1.

but there is an old saying "you have to clean up your own backyard before you knock on your neighbour's door"

we all know not everything is rosy in TFC land.....I'd like to see them settle it first before they lend a hand to an organization (CSA) who really should be leading TFC, not vice versa....

anyways, i think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.....
Agree to disagree? Um no, cause you're wrong!

Your solution to the CSA is to "do nothing". If it's wasnt for the CSA, TFC wouldn't even exist. (wow kind of scary now that I think about it)
Besides current MLS rules limit the amount of players that can be signed called up for the academy. Why develop a player that's likely never going to play for TFC and could play elsewhere? Besides if they're going to count as domestics, may as well make them commit to the national team. :canada:

[TFC Tifoso]

Agree to disagree? Um no, cause you're wrong!

Your solution to the CSA is to "do nothing". If it's wasnt for the CSA, TFC wouldn't even exist. (wow kind of scary now that I think about it)
Besides current MLS rules limit the amount of players that can be signed called up for the academy. Why develop a player that's likely never going to play for TFC and could play elsewhere? Besides if they're going to count as domestics, may as well make them commit to the national team. :canada:

Your solution to the CSA is to "do nothing"
never said that at all...in fact, if you actually read the whole thread, I've said MANY times MAJOR changes need to made within CSA before something like this can even be considered.

If it's wasnt for the CSA, TFC wouldn't even exist.
How?.....are you kidding me?....


as for the rest of your post....lol....maybe we can continue this discussion when you start making sense

[Rudi]

If it's wasnt for the CSA, TFC wouldn't even exist.
How?.....are you kidding me?....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/West-stand-bmo-field.jpg

Learn the history of how this building came to be.

[TFC Tifoso]

Learn the history of how this building came to be.

yes...I understand....U-20 WC, NSS blah blah blah.....

TFC being awarded a franchise had nothing to do with the CSA....MLS was just smart enough to feel that Toronto would be a hot market.

Something was gonna be built for TFC.....if not BMO Field, then something else....

anyways...the point is being lost yet again......

[boban]

yes...I understand....U-20 WC, NSS blah blah blah.....

TFC being awarded a franchise had nothing to do with the CSA....MLS was just smart enough to feel that Toronto would be a hot market.

Something was gonna be built for TFC.....if not BMO Field, then something else....

anyways...the point is being lost yet again......
What is being lost is your failing to comprehend.
MLSE already walked away from the CSA and stadium at Varsity stadium.
They were not pursuing a MLS franchise anymore.
As the song and dance was being played at various locations throughout the city MLSE only came back into the mix when it made sense to them (present location). At that point they again pursued an MLS franchise.
Therefore no stadium = no TFC.

[Rudi]

yes...I understand....U-20 WC, NSS blah blah blah.....

TFC being awarded a franchise had nothing to do with the CSA....MLS was just smart enough to feel that Toronto would be a hot market.

Something was gonna be built for TFC.....if not BMO Field, then something else....

anyways...the point is being lost yet again......
That's a very definitive statement to be making without any sort of proof.

MLSE came on board at the behest of the CSA to provide additional funding for the stadium, as well as to run the stadium for the City of Toronto and to provide a tenant.

The CSA secured the lion's share of funding for the stadium. Without the CSA, there is no World Cup bid, no stadium, and no TFC.

Period.

[Macksam]

Why?...what is your reasoning?...
It's mostly psychological. Said player would have more pride instilled in him, a sense of belonging. I could write a Noble Peace Prize winning paper titled "Sports Psychology and National Allegiances" to back up the claim in more detail but I don't have the time. Anyhow, it's also common sense. You'd have to be really paranoid to think otherwise.


My vast majority interest in TFC is how it contributes to the improvement of the national team. I mean I like the atmosphere and they should win some championships and all, but I would get a waay bigger hard-on if Canada did some damage at a World Cup Finals. You need strong domestic clubs for that. Clubs that promote and support the national program.
This man has it right. If TFC didn't start any Canadian players, I wouldn't give a dam about them. I expect at least 8 in the starting eleven in the next five years.

It is all abut TFC Academy not Canada NT Academy,can't you ppl see the difference FFS. :facepalm:
TFC should do what is best for them,period.
If they produce a player that starts for the CMNT starting eleven, he could easily start for TFC's starting eleven. Anyhow, Canadian players would be more loyal to TFC. Any player that would defect from Canada while playing for TFC will likely not show TFC loyolty either and try to jump ship to Europe asap.


If a kid is really good enough TFC doesn't have to enforce anything they will leave TFC and Canada anyway,and this the reality of soccer in Canada.
Than I don't see what your problem is in implementing this rule.

[T_Mizz]

well at best, nobody can make an accurate assesment on the kids' potential.

not sure what you're trying to say with the bolded part, though....from the way I see it, if the commitment to the NT is asked, then we might never see these players at all...
you know something you're right, that one year he played for the Academy really helped us out, I'm glad we had a kid who was too good for us and left us after a year.:facepalm: These kids wll just do things like this if we don't getsome kind of commitment because if he's going to play for that country why not play in that country

[TFC Tifoso]

That's a very definitive statement to be making without any sort of proof.

MLSE came on board at the behest of the CSA to provide additional funding for the stadium, as well as to run the stadium for the City of Toronto and to provide a tenant.

The CSA secured the lion's share of funding for the stadium. Without the CSA, there is no World Cup bid, no stadium, and no TFC.

Period.

Canada was awarded the U-20 World Cup long before the stadium fiascos happened. And the awarding of the bid was contingent on the fact that the stadum got built.... Canada almost lost the U-20 WC because there was not enough cash to build the stadium until MLSE stepped up, so you can say that without MLSE's involvement the U-20 WC goes tits up. So basically if all parties didn't get involved, everything would've gone to shit....U-20 WC, the NSS, and TFC....one can't take the credit the other (ie. TFC happeneing because of CSA).

Anyways, I'm still not sure how all of that pertains to the point of the original topic that I've been trying to make. Do you feel that because of BMO Field being built, TFC owes the CSA something?

[boban]

Canada was awarded the U-20 World Cup long before the stadium fiascos happened. And the awarding of the bid was contingent on the fact that the stadum got built.... Canada almost lost the U-20 WC because there was not enough cash to build the stadium until MLSE stepped up, so you can say that without MLSE's involvement the U-20 WC goes tits up. So basically if all parties didn't get involved, everything would've gone to shit....U-20 WC, the NSS, and TFC....one can't take the credit the other (ie. TFC happeneing because of CSA).

Anyways, I'm still not sure how all of that pertains to the point of the original topic that I've been trying to make. Do you feel that because of BMO Field being built, TFC owes the CSA something?
:facepalm:

[Macksam]

Anyways, I'm still not sure how all of that pertains to the point of the original topic that I've been trying to make. Do you feel that because of BMO Field being built, TFC owes the CSA something?
TFC doesn't really owe the CSA anything. However, in order for TFC to maximize their potential, becoming a force for Canadian talent will be the only way to do that. In essence, they are embracing their partnership with the CSA. It'll do nothing but good things.

[BakaGaijin]

Here's a scenerio for you:

Two players join the the TFC academy at the same time. Both players are born and raised in Canada. Both players go on to a play for TFC. Player A is a Jason Devos type player. He leaves his blood and sweat on the field for his country....Canada. Player B is a doucebag. His parents are from European country X. He was born and raised in Canada, yet, he decides to represent European country X because this doucebag glory hunter thinks he can make more $$$ in the future by doing so. Player A thinks that people like player B are fucking cunts.

Do you think this would make for good chemistry in the TFC locker room? I know that a stand up guy like Devos would'nt want to play with a cunt like Player B.