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Oldtimer
11-09-2009, 08:47 AM
Here's what Sigi said when the Sounders were bounced out of the first stage of the playoffs:


“To have won the Open Cup and have a winning record in the season and come two points away from winning the Supporters Shield and to have lost to a team that has been a dominant team in the playoffs is a pretty proud moment for a young expansion team,” head coach Sigi Schmid said. “But we don’t want to accept mediocrity. Our goal is always to win a championship and maybe the sting of today will help us to move forward into next year.”


Last year TFC management said that the goal was to make the playoffs in 2009, and to be a contender in 2010.
Now Anselmi is merely saying that the goal is to make the playoffs in 2010. So the question is, is MLSE managment accepting mediocrity?

Beach_Red
11-09-2009, 09:12 AM
Is this a trick question?

Carts
11-09-2009, 09:27 AM
There's a fine line when talking publicly...

As a franchise, you manage the media & fans expectations by being realistic...

As a team, inside the room, you always play to win - that's your goal, and if you win every game, you'll win the championship...

Seattle had a 12-7-11 record this year, obviously a championship contenter, so next year, out for all to see, their goal is a championship... But it would be foolish for a last place team (like NY) to start throwing around quotes like that in the media...

Carts...

Hitcho
11-09-2009, 09:32 AM
They're aiming to make as much money as possible. Success is a corollary of that, which is why we now have JDG, De Ro, etc, but winning is not the primary aim for MLSE, it's just a nice side product and something to try and wrap up into the whole money making game. Grass and good players will help us do well, but it will also ensure continued sell outs at higher prices.

Which is stupid, because a decent run in the CCL would net them a bomb. So would bringing the MLS Cup to TO. How many more TFC shirts, scarves, toques, mugs etc are they going to sell if TFC become champions? And let's not forget that it's really not a very big gap from MLS Cup final to Xmas each year.

So go on MSLE, forget about money for a couple of years and try focussing exclusively on winning. See how much money that makes you over and above what you're doing now.

Roogsy
11-09-2009, 09:43 AM
They're aiming to make as much money as possible. Success is a corollary of that, which is why we now have JDG, De Ro, etc, but winning is not the primary aim for MLSE, it's just a nice side product and something to try and wrap up into the whole money making game. Grass and good players will help us do well, but it will also ensure continued sell outs at higher prices.

Which is stupid, because a decent run in the CCL would net them a bomb. So would bringing the MLS Cup to TO. How many more TFC shirts, scarves, toques, mugs etc are they going to sell if TFC become champions? And let's not forget that it's really not a very big gap from MLS Cup final to Xmas each year.

So go on MSLE, forget about money for a couple of years and try focussing exclusively on winning. See how much money that makes you over and above what you're doing now.

^ Exactly.

The point is...everyone who excuses this organization for the little progress seen is in fact, accepting mediocrity or even worse, but we aren't even mediocre yet even after 3 years in the league which in this league is an eternity.

drewski
11-09-2009, 09:47 AM
i just seeing it as beign realistic. you have to readjust your goals based on the situation.

He could say that the goal is to be a contender next year, but given the team we have right now, as it finished off the season, people would accuse him of being a pie in the sky dreamer without a grip on reality

jabbronies
11-09-2009, 09:49 AM
MLSE fault is that they set expectations low so that the disappointment isn't as great, thus not tarnishing their product as badly when the inevitable failure happens.

But I wouldn't blame them for TFC's failures. That sits with the players, coaches and Mo

Beach_Red
11-09-2009, 09:52 AM
Where do you draw the line for mediocrity? TFC or RSL?

Of course MLSE accepts medicority if it's profitable, just like every other Canadian business (maybe the Blackberry guy and the Biovale guy are the 'new breed' but MLSE is staunchly a part of the old Candian Establishment - like the ones involved in the stupid fight between cable TV and TV networks about which one should profit more for bringing us American shows - which one's profits the government should protect).

The good news is that MLSE reacts to fan pressure.

The bad news is fans often make poor, sentimental choices.

Seriously, though, this team was two wins away from well above mediocre - a good coach could get two more wins out of this team, couldn't he?

Hitcho
11-09-2009, 09:52 AM
i just seeing it as beign realistic. you have to readjust your goals based on the situation.

He could say that the goal is to be a contender next year, but given the team we have right now, as it finished off the season, people would accuse him of being a pie in the sky dreamer without a grip on reality

I disagree. Parity is king in this league and the actual differences between the team in last place and the SS winners are relatively minor when you look at them. The teams that do well are those that push hard for the small differences. Get the best coaches in, pay attention to the small details, work FOR your coaching staff and don't make them work for you, etc. If you grind away for a few years like that then you'll eventually end up top of the heap because what are you left trying to beat? The team owners that don't give a shit and just want to put out a decent side and make some money off it. Which right now, is us. Hence, no play offs for three seasons straight.

The point is, EVERYONE should be looking to be a serious contender in this league, because that's the very essence of its construction. The league have made it as easy as possible to go from MLS Cup finalists to bottom of the league and back again in the space of 2 seasons. And it works, we've seen it happen. So if you want it badly enough and put your effort and money into the rigth places, it's not that hard to come out on or near the top of the pile, and the reason is because some teams just don't put in that effort. You can scrape the play offs without much effort and that's good enough. Or, you can really stretch for success and will probably get it - almost defauly over those that don't.

Roogsy
11-09-2009, 09:54 AM
i just seeing it as beign realistic. you have to readjust your goals based on the situation.

He could say that the goal is to be a contender next year, but given the team we have right now, as it finished off the season, people would accuse him of being a pie in the sky dreamer without a grip on reality


Being realistic does not mean you don't assess the performance of the person in charge of achieving whatever you have achieved to date.

Sigi took a new team and got them in the playoffs and then gave a contending team all they could handle right up into extra time. That is a team that has achieved something impressive.

We have had 3 years to build a team that has not made the playoffs once and placed no better than 11th, an in fact regressed to 12th this year. The fact that we got more points this year than last is actually a red herring since our position in the table shows the same number of teams beat us on points again which is the true reflection of our performance.

So what is the assessment of the person that got us to this magnificent position?

The REAL question we should all be asking is why do we have Mo when Seattle and LA have Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmidt?

Ossington Mental Youth
11-09-2009, 09:59 AM
It certainly feels like they are. Time will tell.
Lord knows we wont.

TFC Tifoso
11-09-2009, 10:38 AM
yes.....yes they are....

ilikemusic
11-09-2009, 10:41 AM
Pffft.

Everyone knows 5 year plans are better than trying to win every year.

:rolleyes:

trane
11-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Yes.

canadian_bhoy
11-09-2009, 11:10 AM
I like the fact that Sigi is upset about the loss.

TFC's response to being bounced was "oh well...that's disappointing".

trane
11-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Look at the bright side, we did not get relegated.


Five year, plan, it takes time to build a championship team, Rome was not build in a day, supporters make it tought on the players by demading too much, at the same time as supporters are badwagon jumpers.

boban
11-09-2009, 11:14 AM
Here's what Sigi said when the Sounders were bounced out of the first stage of the playoffs:




Last year TFC management said that the goal was to make the playoffs in 2009, and to be a contender in 2010.
Now Anselmi is merely saying that the goal is to make the playoffs in 2010. So the question is, is MLSE managment accepting mediocrity?
This question doesn't have to be asked.
Look at the Leafs for example. MLSe always talks about them making playoffs. never do I hear them say win the Stanley or win Championships. If you do hear it form them, it's when they are pressed.
The whole culture of MLSE is about on field mediocrity and boardroom accolades.

Beach_Red
11-09-2009, 11:39 AM
Look at the bright side, we did not get relegated.




A relegation league would be perfect for MLSE - they are always happiest/safest in the middle of the pack. It would be a lot easier to not finish in the bottom two places rather than have to finish in the top eight.

Looking to 'not lose' (get relegated) will always suit MLSE better than looking to win. I hope it never happens in this league because the goal would then become to not get relegated -- too easy a goal.

Pookie
11-09-2009, 04:04 PM
They're aiming to make as much money as possible. Success is a corollary of that, which is why we now have JDG, De Ro, etc, but winning is not the primary aim for MLSE, it's just a nice side product and something to try and wrap up into the whole money making game. Grass and good players will help us do well, but it will also ensure continued sell outs at higher prices.

Which is stupid, because a decent run in the CCL would net them a bomb. So would bringing the MLS Cup to TO. How many more TFC shirts, scarves, toques, mugs etc are they going to sell if TFC become champions? And let's not forget that it's really not a very big gap from MLS Cup final to Xmas each year.

So go on MSLE, forget about money for a couple of years and try focussing exclusively on winning. See how much money that makes you over and above what you're doing now.

Didn't you contradict yourself there? On one hand you say they are focused on the dollar but on the other oblivious to the potential dollars they could be making.

You say that their aim is to make as much money as possible and then highlight that winning would make them "a bomb".

Don't you think that they have done the math to figure out what additional playoff dates (CCL or MLS) would have netted them? Expenses are fixed for 2010. Revenues are essentially fixed as well (prices set, home dates secured). The way to boost revenue is to play more games. You do that by qualifying for playoffs.

Conversely, do you think they are clueless as to how much they've lost as a result of playoff failures (CCL and MLS)?

If there is one thing MLSE know how to do, it's operate a calculator.

boban
11-09-2009, 04:51 PM
Didn't you contradict yourself there? On one hand you say they are focused on the dollar but on the other oblivious to the potential dollars they could be making.

You say that their aim is to make as much money as possible and then highlight that winning would make them "a bomb".

Don't you think that they have done the math to figure out what additional playoff dates (CCL or MLS) would have netted them? Expenses are fixed for 2010. Revenues are essentially fixed as well (prices set, home dates secured). The way to boost revenue is to play more games. You do that by qualifying for playoffs.

Conversely, do you think they are clueless as to how much they've lost as a result of playoff failures (CCL and MLS)?

If there is one thing MLSE know how to do, it's operate a calculator.
No he didn't contradict himself. This is the major failing of people on this board, and others. Just because making home playoff dates means more revenue doesn't mean MLSE is into Championships. Making the playoffs for 1 round is reasonable, and maybe get lucky for another round, in the eyes of MLSE. Over half the teams make the playoffs in all the MLSE sport properties. its not unreasonable to expect that from their perspective. That is a low risk proposition for them. However, winning a championship is a whole new ball game, which incidentally they know nothing about. But to win championships requires more financial investment in many areas from players, coaches, scouts, staff, managers, etc. Sure you get the money back IF you win. But only ONE teams wins, the other 29 or 15 don't. There is a far greater chance you don't win it all. That is what we call high risk. And MLSE is not high risk. They are about as conservative as they come. Sure, if they can capture lightning in a bottle they could win something. But that is wishful thinking. They want to win more out of hope than out of any clear plan or strategy.
So please stop this nonsense that MLSE wants a champion because they could make more money. It also opens them up to more risk which is something they don't like.
They open up the calculator. And it says its too much risk.

Hitcho
11-09-2009, 05:15 PM
^^ what he said

In the alternative, no I don't think they have done the math, because if they had, then they'd be pushing a lot harder for a serious championship push. I think they're showboating along with some appeasing acquisitions here and there, like De Ro, grass and JDG, and then they think "well, we've done a couple of good things, that should be enough to keep everyone happy and we migth make some play off games along the way". But like Boban said, they're not then looking to say "ok, we've got some good foundations here, now let's really turn the screw and bring in top class coaches and scouts, leave no stone unturned until we crack the winning formula".

That's not to say I am unhappy with the appeasing acquisitions like JDG, De Ro and grass, those are all great and a necessary part of winning the league title in my book, but it's a bit like buying a new Ferrari and then putting in used motor oil instead of something performance enhancing. They're not doing what they need to in order to get the best out of the Ferrari. And why? Because the maintenance costs are too high.

Now in fairness, the search for a new coach is on and they might just surprise everyone with a top class appointment (for MLS at least) and then back it up with an increased scouting network and greater commitment to youth development. SO I am not slating MLSE outright, I'm just saying that so far, they're in third gear and cruising and everything's going ok, so they haven;t felt the ened to push to push into top gear and see what tey can really achieve with this team. Hopefully, this off season that will start to change.

Season one, get going, spluttering along in first.

Season two, add a couple of better players and move up a gear, but still well short of the pace setters.

Season three, up into third with a thoroughbred MLS star, some great draft picks and a DP late on.

*Season four,top class coach and assistants appointed, grass laid down, all aspects of running a successful franchise nailed down]

*Season four, mediocre coach appointed, continue chugging along in third gear to keep people happy without stretching for the winning mentality]

*Delete as appropriate

Pookie
11-09-2009, 07:57 PM
No he didn't contradict himself. This is the major failing of people on this board, and others. Just because making home playoff dates means more revenue doesn't mean MLSE is into Championships. Making the playoffs for 1 round is reasonable, and maybe get lucky for another round, in the eyes of MLSE. Over half the teams make the playoffs in all the MLSE sport properties. its not unreasonable to expect that from their perspective. That is a low risk proposition for them. However, winning a championship is a whole new ball game, which incidentally they know nothing about. But to win championships requires more financial investment in many areas from players, coaches, scouts, staff, managers, etc. Sure you get the money back IF you win. But only ONE teams wins, the other 29 or 15 don't. There is a far greater chance you don't win it all. That is what we call high risk. And MLSE is not high risk. They are about as conservative as they come. Sure, if they can capture lightning in a bottle they could win something. But that is wishful thinking. They want to win more out of hope than out of any clear plan or strategy.
So please stop this nonsense that MLSE wants a champion because they could make more money. It also opens them up to more risk which is something they don't like.
They open up the calculator. And it says its too much risk.

I think you are right in that MLSE plans on playoff dates not necessarily championships. In fairness though, I'm not sure any owner makes winning a championship part of their business plan. They might say it for the cameras but only a fool would base his spends on the outcome of winning a championship. As you point out, only 1 team wins which means that quite a few of those business projections would fall short every year.

Sure, there are owners with deep pockets that don't base everything on the dollar. But they are few and far between. In that sense, MLSE is in the majority of owners.

To suggest though that MLSE is "about as conservative as they come" is off base though in light of evidence.

A conservative organization doesn't invest in a 6 year, 18M President and GM of the hockey team. It doesn't go out and get the "Executive of the Year" in Brian Colangelo. It doesn't invest in practice facilities and it certainly doesn't allocate money for a designated player for a team that hadn't completed it's 3rd season.

I'm a long suffering Leaf fan and make no apologies for MLSE.

That said, I refuse to believe that signing Burke, Colangelo or making the money available for a DP (which boosted expenses by nearly 40%) was done for the optics alone. This is a business and they had a 95%+ renewal rate without a DP. They had a waiting list over 10,000 without a DP, people are still lining up.

It should also be noted that the current ownership structure, with the Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan controlling the majority stake in the team, only began in 2003.

It would be nice to blame failures on one source but it's not that easy. MLSE created the structure and budget for the hockey team and basketball teams to succeed or fail on their own. They approved the budget and invested in practice facilities. They've created a direct reporting line into the board and given the president the autonomy to operate as they wish... as much as any President in any company can operate.

At best, we can only hope that they eventually treat TFC with the same management philosophy. Remove the oversight of Peddie and create a direct line from the top of the club to the board. Then hire the best executive (willing to work in the MLS) that they can and approve a budget that will create advantages mentioned (scouting, training, etc).

I fail to see securing money for those things as a problem. The board approved a 40% increase in their salary costs with the idea that it would generate more revenue. If it can be shown that proper scouting and management could secure playoff revenue, year in and year out, they'll be all over it.