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redcard
11-06-2009, 04:59 PM
Does this mean that we will get a new SSS for TFC?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-to-host-2015-pan-am-games/article1354572/

werewolf
11-06-2009, 05:03 PM
I dont see why we would get a new stadium.

But the Hammer is getting a 15000 seat athletic stadium.

NF-FC
11-06-2009, 05:05 PM
It means Hamilton is getting a USL/TOA team if Bob Young keeps to his promises.

OneLoveOneEric
11-06-2009, 05:06 PM
The what games???

rocker
11-06-2009, 05:07 PM
i wonder about BMO Field expansion... it would be a great way to get expansion without MLSE having to pay a cent. They could play the soccer there , without the track around the field that the Hamilton stadium is supposed to have.

denime
11-06-2009, 05:11 PM
what this means for TFC? Not much,BMO being used for soccer during the PAN-AM Games,means TFC will have 2 away games in that period.

boban
11-06-2009, 05:12 PM
Does this mean that we will get a new SSS for TFC?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-to-host-2015-pan-am-games/article1354572/
TFC already has a SSS.
This means Hamilton gets a spanking brand new 27,000 seat stadium (with track).

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
11-06-2009, 05:13 PM
TFC already has a SSS.
This means Hamilton gets a spanking brand new 27,000 seat stadium (with track).


here it is!

http://media.photobucket.com/image/hamilton%20new%20stadium%20pics/DC_83/new_stadium.jpg

boban
11-06-2009, 05:16 PM
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/th_new_stadium.jpg

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
11-06-2009, 05:18 PM
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/th_new_stadium.jpg

i hate stadiums....with open ends!

WHy cant we build stadiums right in this country

boban
11-06-2009, 05:20 PM
i hate stadiums....with open ends!

WHy cant we build stadiums right in this country
beause it has a track around it.
Leaves a lot of room for expansion when we get the WC though. ;)

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
11-06-2009, 05:24 PM
beause it has a track around it.
Leaves a lot of room for expansion when we get the WC though. ;)

awww..i knew there was a reason they made bmo as cheap as they could.......what you figure....2022? ;)

gmacpheetfc
11-06-2009, 05:25 PM
think we qualify before then?

werewolf
11-06-2009, 05:28 PM
awww..i knew there was a reason they made bmo as cheap as they could.......what you figure....2022? ;)

With the infrastructure of our stadiums, maybe 2038.

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 05:31 PM
i wonder about BMO Field expansion... it would be a great way to get expansion without MLSE having to pay a cent. They could play the soccer there , without the track around the field that the Hamilton stadium is supposed to have.

Why would it be great to use more taxpayer's money on BMO Field rather than MLSE? I hope they stick to the current plan ... Hamilton needs a new stadium badly.

By the way, I thought the Hamilton stadium was supposed to hold 30,000 people ... is that the plan for the stadium after the PanAm Games?

boban
11-06-2009, 05:34 PM
Why would it be great to use more taxpayer's money on BMO Field rather than MLSE? I hope they stick to the current plan ... Hamilton needs a new stadium badly.

By the way, I thought the Hamilton stadium was supposed to hold 30,000 people ... is that the plan for the stadium after the PanAm Games?
Plan is for 15,000 by all level of gov. funding.
Mr. Hamilton T-Cat nerd is willing to spend to bring it up to 27,000.
Incidentally the gov. budgeted $150M for 15,000 seats.
That is a lot of money. Seems like it will be a nice stadium.

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 05:39 PM
Plan is for 15,000 by all level of gov. funding.
Mr. Hamilton T-Cat nerd is willing to spend to bring it up to 27,000.
Incidentally the gov. budgeted $150M for 15,000 seats.
That is a lot of money. Seems like it will be a nice stadium.

Hmmm ... sounds like a good stadium ... unlike the barebones BMO Field.

Although I wonder what will be done with the track after the games ... hopefully they sink the bowl and add more seats to make it a proper football stadium.

boban
11-06-2009, 05:41 PM
By the way, I thought the Hamilton stadium was supposed to hold 30,000 people ... is that the plan for the stadium after the PanAm Games?
BTW, I think this is a 33,000 seat rendering ...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/CommonwealthStadium.jpg (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/view-source:http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/CommonwealthStadium.jpg)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/DC_83/CommonwealthStadium.jpg

redcard
11-06-2009, 05:46 PM
the reason i pose the question is that, the city owns BMO, so a part of the money that they would spend on new stadiums why wouldnt they spend a little more on BMO...After all not all the events will be played in Hamilton, after all the games were awarded to Toronto.

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 05:52 PM
the reason i pose the question is that, the city owns BMO, so a part of the money that they would spend on new stadiums why wouldnt they spend a little more on BMO...After all not all the events will be played in Hamilton, after all the games were awarded to Toronto.

The games were awarded to a bid that fronted the name "Toronto".

Also, I'm not sure whether any events are being held in BMO Field but why would that necessitate expansion or renovations? Those events are not going to draw massive crowds ... the PanAm games are generally very low profile. If BMO Field was good enough for the FIFA U-20 World Cup, it is good enough for Pan Am games (the Skydome is hosting the Opening/Closing ceremonies so that takes care of that).

boban
11-06-2009, 05:53 PM
the reason i pose the question is that, the city owns BMO, so a part of the money that they would spend on new stadiums why wouldnt they spend a little more on BMO...After all not all the events will be played in Hamilton, after all the games were awarded to Toronto.
I am ignorant to Pan Am Games.
Outside of track and field, what other sport needs a big stadium?

boban
11-06-2009, 05:58 PM
Hmmm ... sounds like a good stadium ... unlike the barebones BMO Field.

Although I wonder what will be done with the track after the games ... hopefully they sink the bowl and add more seats to make it a proper football stadium.
My apologies, it seems the $150m is for the total 27,000.
Still a good chunk. Should be a nice stadium.
Toronto2015 pikcing up ~$60m of that. The rest from the City of Hamilton, Mr. Ti-Cat and private biz.

rocker
11-06-2009, 06:09 PM
Why would it be great to use more taxpayer's money on BMO Field rather than MLSE?

I didn't mean to say I thought it was great. I meant it was a "great way for MLSE" not to have to pay for it. big difference. i'm just looking at it from their eyes.

secondly, I don't really see MLSE spending $20mil to expand the stadium. So if people want expansion, might as well do it this way, no?

TFC RealDeal RPB
11-06-2009, 06:10 PM
i wonder about BMO Field expansion... it would be a great way to get expansion without MLSE having to pay a cent. They could play the soccer there , without the track around the field that the Hamilton stadium is supposed to have.


I've talk to people high up on the bord at the EX and they told me if Toronto get's the pan am games BMO will have a big expansion.:flare:

boban
11-06-2009, 06:21 PM
I've talk to people high up on the bord at the EX and they told me if Toronto get's the pan am games BMO will have a big expansion.:flare:

Why the cheer? MLSE will then only jack our tickets prices with no cost to them.
They have been raping us in there. Would be fair for them to drop some cash into it.

rocker
11-06-2009, 06:21 PM
I've talk to people high up on the bord at the EX and they told me if Toronto get's the pan am games BMO will have a big expansion.:flare:


any specifics on what that would entail?

Rudi
11-06-2009, 06:28 PM
I'm not sure whether any events are being held in BMO Field
It's included in the list of venues as a site for Football.

TFC FORZA RPB
11-06-2009, 06:29 PM
East side expansion:flare:

Keyman
11-06-2009, 06:48 PM
Maybe the waterfront will finally get some much needed TLC!

TFC USA
11-06-2009, 06:57 PM
Christ. Does Canada have ANY major stadiums that don't have open ends?

stugautz
11-06-2009, 07:02 PM
Anybody see the renderings for the football complex they'll be opening in Burlington? It looks pretty sweet and has a 12,000 seat stadium.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 07:22 PM
Another opportunity for contractors, corrupt politicians, and has been politicians to get more of our taxpayer money. Pan Am games...us and Winterpeg...great. Only positive is the infrastructure they leave behind but then they go and build something in the waste of space called Hamilton. Build one in Downsview or in Woodbine that could be an NFL stadium or something...

werewolf
11-06-2009, 07:27 PM
Another opportunity for contractors, corrupt politicians, and has been politicians to get more of our taxpayer money. Pan Am games...us and Winterpeg...great. Only positive is the infrastructure they leave behind but then they go and build something in the waste of space called Hamilton. Build one in Downsview or in Woodbine that could be an NFL stadium or something...

Any Pan-am games stadium that would be built would be way too big for this event. Ideally an NFL sized stadium could be built for the Olympics :D

boban
11-06-2009, 07:32 PM
Another opportunity for contractors, corrupt politicians, and has been politicians to get more of our taxpayer money. Pan Am games...us and Winterpeg...great. Only positive is the infrastructure they leave behind but then they go and build something in the waste of space called Hamilton. Build one in Downsview or in Woodbine that could be an NFL stadium or something...
Hamilton will actually use the stadium for the Ti-Cats.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 07:32 PM
Any Pan-am games stadium that would be built would be way too big for this event. Ideally an NFL sized stadium could be built for the Olympics :D

I mean its Toronto 2015...so build infrastructure in Toronto. I know we are being screwed without being kissed here...but at least put the infrastructure in a place where it counts. Its not GTA 2015..ffs Hamilton is not even GTA are they ???

The organizers sold this by saying we always overshot by going after the Olympics so this is a stepping stone to show we can hold these type of events at a smaller scale...ok great...but then lets build stuff that we can use for the next bid.

boban
11-06-2009, 07:33 PM
Any Pan-am games stadium that would be built would be way too big for this event. Ideally an NFL sized stadium could be built for the Olympics :D
True, but they could always build a nice 30,000 or so now and then only you need to add a second or 3rd deck for the Olympics.

boban
11-06-2009, 07:33 PM
Anybody see the renderings for the football complex they'll be opening in Burlington? It looks pretty sweet and has a 12,000 seat stadium.
Do you have access to some pics?
I can't find any.
Care to post here?

boban
11-06-2009, 07:35 PM
I mean its Toronto 2015...so build infrastructure in Toronto. I know we are being screwed without being kissed here...but at least put the infrastructure in a place where it counts. Its not GTA 2015..ffs Hamilton is not even GTA are they ???

The organizers sold this by saying we always overshot by going after the Olympics so this is a stepping stone to show we can hold these type of events at a smaller scale...ok great...but then lets build stuff that we can use for the next bid.
It will be.
Sport infrastructure in the WHOLE of S. Ontario belt is falling apart.
If one day we do get the Olympics, the Hamilton stadium will be used for football matches.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 07:35 PM
Hamilton will actually use the stadium for the Ti-Cats.

To me that is a waste of money. A stadium in Milton, Whitby/Oshawa would be a better return...anywhere in the GTA would be better actually...

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 07:38 PM
It will be.
Sport infrastructure in the WHOLE of S. Ontario belt is falling apart.
If one day we do get the Olympics, the Hamilton stadium will be used for football matches.

If we get the Olympics, it will be a national embarassment to have anything in Hamilton. Out of all the places, we want the world to see Hamilton...really ? To walk around in that mall downtown...to see the sights down the main strip.... I would not subject my worst enemy to that.

boban
11-06-2009, 07:43 PM
wzhxvy you have to be some seriously ignorant person with those narrow minded and vision lacking statements.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 07:47 PM
wzhxvy you have to be some seriously ignorant person with those narrow minded and vision lacking statements.

Thanks for the insult. However the facts are the facts. We invest money because of sentimentality or political reasons (Hamilton has been a liberal stronghold for many years with NDP gaining ground)...but the fact of the matter, is that Hamilton is no better deserving than Oshawa. Its not in the GTA and its a waste of my tax payer money.

If someone came to visit me from outside of Canada, I would be embarassed to show them Hamilton. You dont like that statement, too bad. Its a fact, its a dump.

rocker
11-06-2009, 07:51 PM
part of the reason this bid was spread around (and not just about Toronto) is political. McGuinty can't really sell a bid if the benefits go just to toronto.. the rest of Canada hates toronto enough already.
i don't think this bid would have happened in the first place if it was just toronto. spreading things around means toronto at least gets some of the benefit.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 07:54 PM
Isnt David Peterson running this ? Enough said people...bunch of liberal operatives rewarding their buddies or hotly contested ridings, and oh btw, I voted liberal the last several elections, but to sit here and be happy about a stadium in Hamilton...no freaking way.

werewolf
11-06-2009, 08:04 PM
If we get the Olympics, it will be a national embarassment to have anything in Hamilton. Out of all the places, we want the world to see Hamilton...really ? To walk around in that mall downtown...to see the sights down the main strip.... I would not subject my worst enemy to that.

I dont think its the end of the world to have small-scale events there. Look at London, their Olympic stadium is in the East part of the city, and a huge focal point. The big World Cup stadium in South Africa is going up in Soweto, home of some of the worst places in the country.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 08:09 PM
I dont think its the end of the world to have small-scale events there. Look at London, their Olympic stadium is in the East part of the city, and a huge focal point. The big World Cup stadium in South Africa is going up in Soweto, home of some of the worst places in the country.

I agree its not the end of the world...it just irritates me that Hamilton is getting it vs other locations.

Canary Canuck
11-06-2009, 08:21 PM
Grass surface??

rocker
11-06-2009, 08:42 PM
Grass surface??

the hamilton stadium would have to be, I think... they need the centre surface to be grass for the various javelin/discus events. but then it'll probably get ripped up and converted to field turf for the ticats. but that's just a guess.

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 09:43 PM
To me that is a waste of money. A stadium in Milton, Whitby/Oshawa would be a better return...anywhere in the GTA would be better actually...

Actually the stadium in Hamilton will probably provide the best return out of any new facilities being built for the Pan Am Games. No other facility will be able to host two permanent professional sports teams as their tenants (the Ti-Cats and the new USL team). I don't know why you're so opposed to it but your complaints seem ridiculous. No need to bring politics into this. A stadium of that size within the GTA would be absolutely useless.

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 09:46 PM
Isnt David Peterson running this ? Enough said people...bunch of liberal operatives rewarding their buddies or hotly contested ridings, and oh btw, I voted liberal the last several elections, but to sit here and be happy about a stadium in Hamilton...no freaking way.

You don't have to be happy about it ... the province and the feds are ponying up the majority of the money ... its not as if the games will be funded by the city of Toronto.

Mulder
11-06-2009, 09:54 PM
I mean its Toronto 2015...so build infrastructure in Toronto. I know we are being screwed without being kissed here...but at least put the infrastructure in a place where it counts. Its not GTA 2015..ffs Hamilton is not even GTA are they ???

The organizers sold this by saying we always overshot by going after the Olympics so this is a stepping stone to show we can hold these type of events at a smaller scale...ok great...but then lets build stuff that we can use for the next bid.

I love this "The Centre of the Universe" attitude

This is why the rest of the country hates Toronto.

drewski
11-06-2009, 10:02 PM
Isnt David Peterson running this ? Enough said people...bunch of liberal operatives rewarding their buddies or hotly contested ridings, and oh btw, I voted liberal the last several elections, but to sit here and be happy about a stadium in Hamilton...no freaking way.

getting upset by it is a waste of time cause everybody will do it. the exact same thing is happening federally with the Economic Action Plan.

look on the bright side, at least its the Golden Horsehoe getting something out of this boondoggle.

C.Ronaldo
11-06-2009, 10:14 PM
waterfton transit/lrt will be fixed/created.

there will be soccer games at bmo, karate and handball in the ricoh, and bmx and/or beach volleyball courts built on the ex grounds

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 10:15 PM
Actually the stadium in Hamilton will probably provide the best return out of any new facilities being built for the Pan Am Games. No other facility will be able to host two permanent professional sports teams as their tenants (the Ti-Cats and the new USL team). I don't know why you're so opposed to it but your complaints seem ridiculous. No need to bring politics into this. A stadium of that size within the GTA would be absolutely useless.

So you think politics has nothing to do with this or you dont want me to bring politics because its so blatantly obvious what is going on.

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 10:17 PM
You don't have to be happy about it ... the province and the feds are ponying up the majority of the money ... its not as if the games will be funded by the city of Toronto.

So how much is the great City of Hamilton contributing to this stadium ?

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 10:18 PM
I love this "The Centre of the Universe" attitude

This is why the rest of the country hates Toronto.

No its the entitlement attitude you should love by smaller communities with small and declining tax bases that think they are "owed".

wzhxvy
11-06-2009, 10:20 PM
getting upset by it is a waste of time cause everybody will do it. the exact same thing is happening federally with the Economic Action Plan.

look on the bright side, at least its the Golden Horsehoe getting something out of this boondoggle.

I agree...I want my/our piece of all these boondoggles...what upset me was that even when the boondoggle has Toronto's name all over it...Toronto cant even manage to get all the boondoggle money...

C.Ronaldo
11-06-2009, 10:26 PM
p.s

im not a big fan of hamilton, but its the next up and coming city. And can become a nice city if some attention is given to it.

as the prices of homes becomes out of reach in the gta, hamilton and its new transit plan is the next go to city. this is also a result of Burlington-Mississauga stealing business from Toronto.

so what use to be the middle (toronto) is now the burlington - mississauga area. Thus, Hamilton is now closer to a majority of businesses. (especially with the new GO train and transit plans)

Bars92
11-06-2009, 10:27 PM
No its the entitlement attitude you should love by smaller communities with small and declining tax bases that think they are "owed".

Hamilton is GTA, its just no one from Toronto knows it exists. In the grand scheme of things Hamilton is still one of the top 10 largest cities in Canada so I wouldn't just call it some "small community". Not to mention the surrounding municipalities.

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 10:44 PM
So you think politics has nothing to do with this or you dont want me to bring politics because its so blatantly obvious what is going on.

What is so blatantly obvious? We're supposed to believe that there is some very obvious political reason why the federal conservatives and the provincial liberals are ponying up money for the NDP Hamilton?

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 10:51 PM
So how much is the great City of Hamilton contributing to this stadium ?

I don't know ... but I bet the City of Toronto isn't just forking over cash to Hamilton so they can complete the stadium. All the municipalities are contributing their share.

Also, the most expensive part of the games is going to be the athletes village ... which is being built in Toronto. If you don't care much for non-stadium related developments than I guess you would feel ripped off but overall, that is quite a significant development.

jimiv
11-06-2009, 10:56 PM
There will be 4 venues for football, as per the bid book, BMO is the main stadium and ther will be three others... Ron Joyce Stadium Hamilton, Sherwood Park Burlington, and Varsity Stadium. Here is the page from the Bid Book. www.toronto2015.org (http://www.toronto2015.org)
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=52&pictureid=2005

TFC07
11-06-2009, 10:57 PM
Hamilton is GTA, its just no one from Toronto knows it exists. In the grand scheme of things Hamilton is still one of the top 10 largest cities in Canada so I wouldn't just call it some "small community". Not to mention the surrounding municipalities.

No, it's not!

Anyway, BMO field going to expand now?

Bars92
11-06-2009, 11:01 PM
The City of Hamilton (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Hamilton,_Ontario), Regional Municipality of Niagara (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Niagara_Regional_Municipality,_Ontario) and City of Guelph (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Guelph,_Ontario) all have significant ties to Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area. They are not geographically distant enough to be considered separate from the GTA, officially or otherwise. In some cases the provincial government already includes Hamilton and Niagara as part of the GTA for record keeping purposes as well as for transportation planning.
- from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area

Dirk Diggler
11-06-2009, 11:18 PM
Anybody see the renderings for the football complex they'll be opening in Burlington? It looks pretty sweet and has a 12,000 seat stadium.

This is the rendering of the Burlington stadium by the way:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4531/dsaok.jpg

Does look pretty sweet for a stadium of that size ... the stands have roof for heaven's sakes!!!

TFCUNITED
11-06-2009, 11:54 PM
^Someone is going to complain that the ends are open. :D

TFC07
11-07-2009, 12:09 AM
The City of Hamilton (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Hamilton,_Ontario), Regional Municipality of Niagara (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Niagara_Regional_Municipality,_Ontario) and City of Guelph (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/wiki/Guelph,_Ontario) all have significant ties to Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area. They are not geographically distant enough to be considered separate from the GTA, officially or otherwise. In some cases the provincial government already includes Hamilton and Niagara as part of the GTA for record keeping purposes as well as for transportation planning.
- from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area

I am sure you were to ask people if Hamilton is part of GTA or not, most will say no.

Auzzy
11-07-2009, 12:56 AM
I just checked out the video for the bid: pretty slick.
http://www.thestar.com/videozone/722143

Obviously includes BMO stadium, maybe with TFC fans in the overhead shots? Note, no gridiron lines on the overhead shot, but lines all over the place on the closeups, plus plastic pitch. And #3 apparently a striker?

Anyway, looking forward to any improvements that BMO may get out of this. Plus I'm happy if some Toronto/GTA transit projects & waterfront projects are finished quicker as a result.

Redpunkfiddle
11-07-2009, 01:29 AM
Maybe the waterfront will finally get some much needed TLC!

Great news for the Waterfront. The athletes village will be constructed in the West Don Lands, and as there is already a plan in place for the building envelopes, street layouts, parks, transit and public spaces, they'll build it to the needs of a real neighbourhood. A lot of the affordable housing required will be able to be constructed

http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/dynamic.php?first=43fa75b221b08&second=4648891d21b01&third=442c3d68acd91

UltraSuperMegaMo
11-07-2009, 02:32 AM
I'm not super familiar with the bid or the relevant geography, but building stadiums in both Hamilton and Burlington seems insane. Aren't they like 20 mins. apart?

SteeltownBhoy
11-07-2009, 09:10 AM
Paul Henderson had a good take on this in the SUN. Frequently the plans in the bid book are changed over the comming years. Calgary for example, only used 1 site from the proposed bid book. Hamilton is putting 40 million (i think) towards the stadium and another 8 million towards the Velledrome.

Yes downtown Hamilton is hurting. But this is seen as a major component of the new revitalization plan. Hamilton is changeing, the biggesting employers are the University and the Hospitals. High paying, high tech , jobs. Not the steelmills. (I may change my avatar).

By the way I have an 800 ft condo in Downtown Hamiltion, I've seen identical units advertised in Toronto for 350,000. 125,000 here.

The Go service from Hamilton to Toronto is great and the new rapid transit plan is going to make Hamilton an attractive alternative in the future.

So stop the hate on Hamilton!!!

Plus.....we don't have have the ARGOS!!!!!!!

Mulder
11-07-2009, 09:36 AM
I agree...I want my/our piece of all these boondoggles...what upset me was that even when the boondoggle has Toronto's name all over it...Toronto cant even manage to get all the boondoggle money...

Stop acting like Toronto is getting nothing out of this and go read the bid book.

Besides all the centre's that are going to be built, the Athletes village that is going to be built will probably bring in the city millions upon millions of dollars after the games. And go looking around to see what "Toronto" actually needs in terms what the other cities are getting.

You're upset the Hamilton is getting a new stadium. Does Toronto need a new stadium? We have 6, with another 5,000 seat one planned for field hockey.

So 6 stadiums with capacity over 3,000.

UofT is getting the new swimming and aquatic centre, as well as the new TTC plan is going going to be fast tracked out to UTSC.


Please tell me of what other centre's are getting could Toronto use?

Fort York Redcoat
11-07-2009, 09:52 AM
This is ridiculous. Front pages saying we're not losers anymore because we got an event few recognize and and fewer watch. I'm glad this event won't be entirely in Toronto and spread elsewhere.

ag futbol
11-07-2009, 10:36 AM
Looks like this one has turned into a quazi-political debate.

Not so sure about the pan-am games, but with the olympics (and it's huge cost) there is a ton of evidence out there suggesting it isn't even close to worth it (this includes all the spinoff benefits one might expect).

For a city our size we probably have the worst subway line in north america, and our briliant plan is to waste money on low density street cars that are un-reliable in winter. On top of that, there is no shortage of pet projects like spending $100 M dollars on a stupid hotel around the ex which nobody will go to ... but it doesn't matter because the developers make money off building it.

Pan-am games has at least some hope of leaving a functional and worth while legacy ... let's hope it actually does. Because the amount of money being wasted by all levels of government lately makes me want to puke.

Bars92
11-07-2009, 10:45 AM
I'm not super familiar with the bid or the relevant geography, but building stadiums in both Hamilton and Burlington seems insane. Aren't they like 20 mins. apart?

Yeah they are literally 10 mins apart, but I think the proposed site is on the border of the two, down by the the lake. That area is quite smogy though. Hamilton Roughnecks here we come (USL) !!

billyfly
11-07-2009, 10:54 AM
I will only support the Hammer's stadium if they lose the annoying one-way streets.

billyfly
11-07-2009, 10:54 AM
BTW - the usl team will have to be known as the "hammers" and have the same coloures as West Ham.

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 10:56 AM
Stop acting like Toronto is getting nothing out of this and go read the bid book.

Besides all the centre's that are going to be built, the Athletes village that is going to be built will probably bring in the city millions upon millions of dollars after the games. And go looking around to see what "Toronto" actually needs in terms what the other cities are getting.

You're upset the Hamilton is getting a new stadium. Does Toronto need a new stadium? We have 6, with another 5,000 seat one planned for field hockey.

So 6 stadiums with capacity over 3,000.

UofT is getting the new swimming and aquatic centre, as well as the new TTC plan is going going to be fast tracked out to UTSC.


Please tell me of what other centre's are getting could Toronto use?


Read the bid book ? Thanks for the tip, you read it and believe it obviously. There is an email in your inbox from Nigeria, send that guy $200 bucks while you are it. If you think anyone believes the propaganda they put in a non-binding marketing brochure then think again.

A few people made great points earlier. I agree the athlete's village is a good project, one that would have cost half as much if done privately mind you, but given we all know its a boondogle, might as well overpay for stuff that can be re-used.

And please, dont try to make Hamilton as some sort of up and coming metropolis...please people. Outside of the hospital and university, its a sad state of affairs.

Beach_Red
11-07-2009, 11:32 AM
Read the bid book ? Thanks for the tip, you read it and believe it obviously. There is an email in your inbox from Nigeria, send that guy $200 bucks while you are it. If you think anyone believes the propaganda they put in a non-binding marketing brochure then think again.

A few people made great points earlier. I agree the athlete's village is a good project, one that would have cost half as much if done privately mind you, but given we all know its a boondogle, might as well overpay for stuff that can be re-used.

And please, dont try to make Hamilton as some sort of up and coming metropolis...please people. Outside of the hospital and university, its a sad state of affairs.

Do you really think there is a public-private seperation in this province? Do you not think those "private" forces are the ones really behind this? It's too bad our elected officials are such loyal employees of those private, but it's nothing new.

rocker
11-07-2009, 11:45 AM
no private company is gonna build affordable housing all by itself on the portlands. come on!
and in this economic environment, it's often hard to get even private housing projects funded.

BakaGaijin
11-07-2009, 12:22 PM
I will only support the Hammer's stadium if they lose the annoying one-way streets.

Dude, that's the best part about Hamilton. You can fly down King or Main and not hit any red lights because they are timed. It's brilliant.

I don't know why people hate Hamilton. Yes, it's a bit of dump, but the people from Hamilton are good peeps.........they don't shower often, but they are good peeps.

I'm glad these games are being spread around the GTA. It shares the burden and the enjoyment throughout multiple communities.

With Brazil, Argentina, Canada........should be some good footy!

C.Ronaldo
11-07-2009, 12:47 PM
why did Mississauga get screwed out of this?

prizby
11-07-2009, 12:52 PM
i wonder what green facilities will be built

boban
11-07-2009, 12:56 PM
why did Mississauga get screwed out of this?
I was thinking the same thing.
Although Judo and Taekwondo are to be at Hershey, and Roller Sports are to be at Iceland.
But yeah, we get no new facility.
I find it unbelievable a city of 3/4 million has not even one stadium of at least 3,000-3,500, let alone two.

Those new Hershey Centre soccer fields built 2 years are a total flop.

boban
11-07-2009, 12:57 PM
i wonder what green facilities will be built
Depending on how much green paint they buy, they all could be :p

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 01:16 PM
why did Mississauga get screwed out of this?

LOL yeah ... we did get screwed a bit didnt we ... I wish that Burlington stadium would have went somewhere in Mississauga ... maybe at the UTM campus?

rocker
11-07-2009, 01:22 PM
I guess Hazel's son wasn't on the committee??? ;)

but it would have been nice to have that Burlington stadium in Mississauga. Mississauga could use a nice one.

UTM doesn't really have the space tho.. 2 more buildings are going up right now basically filling in all the major empty spaces. Maybe the south side could have one, but it'd be tight.

boban
11-07-2009, 01:27 PM
LOL yeah ... we did get screwed a bit didnt we ... I wish that Burlington stadium would have went somewhere in Mississauga ... maybe at the UTM campus?
I agree, although it for sure would be filled with pointy ball lines in that location.


An aside, they was talk a couple years ago of a bigger stadium in that location.

SoccMan
11-07-2009, 01:37 PM
That is an ugly looking stadium to be built in Hamilton. I know it will be a stadium for the Ticats mainly,however, why do we keep building these ugly looking stadiums here in Canada. Have a look at some of these new stadium being built in Europe and how much more appealing they are. Why the open ends, why not enclose the whole stadium, have seats right around the stadium. Do we not have any people with any creativity here in Canada when it comes to stadiums?

prizby
11-07-2009, 01:43 PM
Depending on how much green paint they buy, they all could be :p

i meant enviromentaly friendly

boban
11-07-2009, 01:52 PM
That is an ugly looking stadium to be built in Hamilton. I know it will be a stadium for the Ticats mainly,however, why do we keep building these ugly looking stadiums here in Canada. Have a look at some of these new stadium being built in Europe and how much more appealing they are. Why the open ends, why not enclose the whole stadium, have seats right around the stadium. Do we not have any people with any creativity here in Canada when it comes to stadiums?
It actually is not bad. They are not straight on stands, they wrap around/curve. And one end is actually open, the other is closed.
Have a second look. The yellow section looks like it will be bleacher seating and the open end is where the scoreboard is.

Canary Canuck
11-07-2009, 02:37 PM
That is an ugly looking stadium to be built in Hamilton. I know it will be a stadium for the Ticats mainly,however, why do we keep building these ugly looking stadiums here in Canada. Have a look at some of these new stadium being built in Europe and how much more appealing they are. Why the open ends, why not enclose the whole stadium, have seats right around the stadium. Do we not have any people with any creativity here in Canada when it comes to stadiums?

It's due to sightlines. In a track stadium the viewing distances from the ends are terrible. Same thing applies to most CFL stadiums due to the extra long field and extra long end zones. If you only need 30,000 seats then you put them where the best views are. No point putting seats where they won't sell. Soccer stadiums are built more uniformly because the ends offer good views.

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 02:46 PM
Once they build the second deck for the opposing stand it will look much better. Also, these sketches seem very preliminary ... I would not expect the finishing product to be like that.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 03:33 PM
why did Mississauga get screwed out of this?

Better question is: why did Brampton get screwed out of this? Our tax dollars are going to be wasted on this 3rd rate sporting event without any return to our city. But then again, we are used to of our money going towards Toronto and Mississauga without any returns. :(

boban
11-07-2009, 03:38 PM
Better question is: why did Brampton get screwed out of this? Our tax dollars are going to be wasted on this 3rd rate sporting event without any return to our city. But then again, we are used to of our money going towards Toronto and Mississauga without any returns. :(
Brampton gets wrestling. It wasn't totally screwed.
Besides, Brampton is a true shit hole anyway.
Half the size of Mississauga. If any new facilities would come Missy should get them.

boban
11-07-2009, 03:44 PM
From what I see in the bid book it seems Lamport is out as a venue which kinda surprises me. Yet a new field hockey facility is being build on the U of T grounds (where I don't know) seating 5,000.
Fuck that sucks, Mississauga sure could use a stadium of that size.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 03:46 PM
Brampton gets wrestling. It wasn't totally screwed.
Besides, Brampton is a true shit hole anyway.
Half the size of Mississauga. If any new facilities would come Missy should get them.

Brampton is a shit hole? Last time I remember, Malton was located in Mississauga not Brampton.

Currently, Brampton has about 500,000 people while Mississauga has about 700,000. However, Brampton has one of highest average annual growth rate in Canada.

Anyway, where exactly in Brampton is this wrestling event going to take place at?

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 03:49 PM
Powerade Centre ... but I agree with boban ... Brumpton is getting more than its fair share of events ... Mississauga is the one being left out.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 03:50 PM
Powerade Centre ... but I agree with boban ... Brumpton is getting more than its fair share of events ... Mississauga is the one being left out.

What? Brampton is only getting one event without any money to build a stadium for it. How exactly is that getting it's fair share?

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 04:08 PM
Mississauga isn't getting any money to build new stadium either. Plus why do you want money to build another arena when Powerade Centre already exists.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 04:21 PM
Mississauga isn't getting any money to build new stadium either. Plus why do you want money to build another arena when Powerade Centre already exists.

because it is hockey stadium located old side of Brampton. We need a stadium in new (north east ) Brampton. Besides, you guys already have Hershey Centre.

Canary Canuck
11-07-2009, 04:27 PM
Has anyone else noticed the massive media hypocrisy surrounding this? Remember Dave Perkins' relentless campaign against the construction of BMO Field. Now the Hamilton Ti-Cats are getting a free stadium and he doesn't have any problem with that. He even wrote a piece in the Star today (http://www.thestar.com/sports/panamgames/article/722509--perkins-pan-ams-important-to-province)about how all these facilities are exactly what the province needs even though most of them will sit empty afterwards. He even managed to take a shot at MLSE. Then there's Bobo McClown who isn't saying boo about the Ti-Cats getting a free stadium with government money.

boban
11-07-2009, 04:30 PM
What? Brampton is only getting one event without any money to build a stadium for it. How exactly is that getting it's fair share?
You just proved my point.
Brampton is not important in the scheme of the GTA.
Mississauga is twice its size plus way more linked to Toronto.
Mississauga is waay more in need of an outdoor stadium than Brampton.

But in any event, both cities should have at least one 3,500 seater (Miss 2) already - regardless of these Games. This is the screw up of both municipalities and its private sector.

boban
11-07-2009, 04:33 PM
Has anyone else noticed the massive media hypocrisy surrounding this? Remember Dave Perkins' relentless campaign against the construction of BMO Field. Now the Hamilton Ti-Cats are getting a free stadium and he doesn't have any problem with that. He even wrote a piece in the Star today (http://www.thestar.com/sports/panamgames/article/722509--perkins-pan-ams-important-to-province)about how all these facilities are exactly what the province needs even though most of them will sit empty afterwards. He even managed to take a shot at MLSE. Then there's Bobo McClown who isn't saying boo about the Ti-Cats getting a free stadium with government money.
To be fair the Ti-Cats are not getting a free stadium either.
The stadium calls for a capacity of 15,000.
Mr. Ti-Cat owner will have to fund the stadium to bring it to a min 27,000 for the CFL team. He will have to come up with about $50M from what I read.

C.Ronaldo
11-07-2009, 04:34 PM
not to knock Brampton, but it only grew b/c Mississauga ran out of room, same with Milton, same with north oakville.

Mississauga has 3/4 mill residents, and WELL over a million people in it during work hours.

has 4 highways, an airport, lakefront, great shopping, 2 hospitals and a well diversified population

i dont think Mississauga is the the greatest city ever, but it can survive on its own if it had to with 50 to 50 job to people ratio and has a real transit plan in the works (not that i think it will work well until Toronto and Mississauga get on the same page)

TFC07
11-07-2009, 04:35 PM
You just proved my point.
Brampton is not important in the scheme of the GTA.
Mississauga is twice its size plus way more linked to Toronto.
Mississauga is waay more in need of an outdoor stadium than Brampton.

But in any event, both cities should have at least one 3,500 seater (Miss 2) already - regardless of these Games. This is the screw up of both municipalities and its private sector.

How so? What are you guys planning to do with it? Brampton needs stadium for soccer (Brampton Lions?) and cricket (Brampton cricket league).

TFC07
11-07-2009, 04:40 PM
not to knock Brampton, but it only grew b/c Mississauga ran out of room, same with Milton, same with north oakville.

Mississauga has 3/4 mill residents, and WELL over a million people in it during work hours.

has 4 highways, an airport, lakefront, great shopping, 2 hospitals and a well diversified population

i dont think Mississauga is the the greatest city ever, but it can survive on its own if it had to with 50 to 50 job to people ratio and has a real transit plan in the works (not that i think it will work well until Toronto and Mississauga get on the same page)

No, Brampton got big because City of Toronto run out major businesses to Brampton where they don't tax businesses a lot like City of Toronto does. We got hospitals, a lake and even more diversified population than Mississauga (non-whites make up majority of Brampton population now). Let's not forget a lot of famous people that come from Brampton to boot about.

denime
11-07-2009, 04:41 PM
How so? What are you guys planning to do with it? Brampton needs stadium for soccer (Brampton Lions?) and cricket (Brampton cricket league).

:picard: and you wonder why Brampton .....

Canary Canuck
11-07-2009, 04:41 PM
To be fair the Ti-Cats are not getting a free stadium either.
The stadium calls for a capacity of 15,000.
Mr. Ti-Cat owner will have to fund the stadium to bring it to a min 27,000 for the CFL team. He will have to come up with about $50M from what I read.


Not the case. The city of Hamilton is on the hook for $50 million needed to boost it to CFL capacity.

"Today we party; tomorrow we look at next steps," he said.

Those "next steps" include finding the additional $50 million the city needs to take the 15,000-seat Pan Am stadium to 25,000 seats to house the Ticats after the Games, acquiring property for the stadium, and fast-tracking plans for a rapid transit (RT) line.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/668366

boban
11-07-2009, 04:42 PM
How so? What are you guys planning to do with it? Brampton needs stadium for soccer (Brampton Lions?) and cricket (Brampton cricket league).
You can use the stadium for regional HS game (homecomings), finals, track events, also Toronto Croatia, maybe even Serbian White Eagles.
That goes nothing to say about single events.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 04:42 PM
:picard: and you wonder why Brampton .....
What are you trying to say here?

boban
11-07-2009, 04:46 PM
Not the case. The city of Hamilton is on the hook for $50 million needed to boost it to CFL capacity.

"Today we party; tomorrow we look at next steps," he said.

Those "next steps" include finding the additional $50 million the city needs to take the 15,000-seat Pan Am stadium to 25,000 seats to house the Ticats after the Games, acquiring property for the stadium, and fast-tracking plans for a rapid transit (RT) line.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/668366
Oh I am aware of the city involvement. I never said Hamilton City is not pitching in. But that is public money.
There will be private money needed to make the Ti-Cats fit.
Mr. Young did say they will contribute, plus add in other private money (naming rights for 1).

boban
11-07-2009, 04:46 PM
What are you trying to say here?
Refer to my previous post.
'It's a shit hole' buddy.

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 04:49 PM
Less white people does not mean it is more diverse.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 04:51 PM
Refer to my previous post.
'It's a shit hole' buddy.

How exactly does having a cricket league (that actually develop players for our provincial and national teams) make a city a shithole? Like I said before, you guys have malton. nuff said!

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 04:51 PM
because it is hockey stadium located old side of Brampton. We need a stadium in new (north east ) Brampton. Besides, you guys already have Hershey Centre.

We have Hershey Centre and you have Powerade ... why do you guys need another arena and stadium more than us again?

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 04:53 PM
How exactly does having a cricket league (that actually develop players for our provincial and national teams) make a city a shithole? Like I said before, you guys have malton. nuff said!

I'm not sure where this cricket stuff is coming from but Malton is pretty much like Brampton ... if you think that Malton is shit, you can't have a good opinion about Brampton either.

denime
11-07-2009, 04:55 PM
We have Hershey Centre and you have Powerade ... why do you guys need another arena and stadium more than us again?
Because guys you dont have a cricket league that actually develop players for our provincial and national teams. :rolleyes:

Smuttynose
11-07-2009, 05:09 PM
why did Mississauga get screwed out of this?

not totally screwed, we got 10 pin bowling at the classic bowl! :D

boban
11-07-2009, 05:12 PM
not totally screwed, we got 10 pin bowling at the classic bowl! :DLOL.
You saw that too eh? :D

Mulder
11-07-2009, 05:13 PM
Has anyone else noticed the massive media hypocrisy surrounding this? Remember Dave Perkins' relentless campaign against the construction of BMO Field. Now the Hamilton Ti-Cats are getting a free stadium and he doesn't have any problem with that. He even wrote a piece in the Star today (http://www.thestar.com/sports/panamgames/article/722509--perkins-pan-ams-important-to-province)about how all these facilities are exactly what the province needs even though most of them will sit empty afterwards. He even managed to take a shot at MLSE. Then there's Bobo McClown who isn't saying boo about the Ti-Cats getting a free stadium with government money.


Free Stadium. Ha! That's what MLSE got, they gave the 10 million to construction and now 5 millionish for Grass and it's now ONLY a stadium for TFC, some International games, and lacrosse. It's no longer a public facility. And I won't beable to rent it talk about a free stadium.

boban
11-07-2009, 05:16 PM
Free Stadium. Ha! That's what MLSE got, they gave the 10 million to construction and now 5 millionish for Grass and it's now ONLY a stadium for TFC, some International games, and lacrosse. It's no longer a public facility. And I won't beable to rent it talk about a free stadium.
They gave $8M for construction.
And the $5M for grass conversion is mostly paid by the $3.5M from the Edu transfer in 2008.

But you shouldn't be able to rent in the first place anyway.
That whole thing from the outset was retarded.

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 05:42 PM
I bet you this thread is the most attention/discussion the Pan-am games will have.

billyfly
11-07-2009, 06:01 PM
Wow. Love the hate in this thread lol...

I do think that as a Toronto fronted bid, the money and facilities should stay in the GTA. Hamilton as part of the GTA is a bit of a joke. Golden Horseshoe corridor yes, GTA no.

If a stadium is built in Hamilton I do believe there are other considerations and forces at work (which is probably par for the course).

I think a new stadium should be built on the Mississauga/Brampton border to keep everyone happy (Sorry new Brampton/Milton).

I hope BMO is expanded as part of the games.

BTW - Varsity should never have been replaced by that sorry track and field stadium that is there now.

boban
11-07-2009, 06:04 PM
I bet you this thread is the most attention/discussion the Pan-am games will have.
I bet you it doesn't.
Come back in 5.5 years and you will see ;)

boban
11-07-2009, 06:14 PM
Wow. Love the hate in this thread lol...

I do think that as a Toronto fronted bid, the money and facilities should stay in the GTA. Hamilton as part of the GTA is a bit of a joke. Golden Horseshoe corridor yes, GTA no.

If a stadium is built in Hamilton I do believe there are other considerations and forces at work (which is probably par for the course).
It's Toronto fronted in name only. The mother organizations like awarding to cities, not countries or regions. A perfect example is Vancouver 2010.
Early on it was called the Vancouver-Whistler bid. The IOC came back to them and said pick one. Still doesn't change the fact the games are in reality spread all over the whole GVA and southern BC.



I think a new stadium should be built on the Mississauga/Brampton border to keep everyone happy (Sorry new Brampton/Milton).
I am all for Brampton having a little 3,000 seater, but please don't tell me it is more needed there than in a city twice its size.


I hope BMO is expanded as part of the games. It will be.
Perfect opportunity MLSE will seize on to get expansion done and pay minimal for it.


BTW - Varsity should never have been replaced by that story track and field stadium that is there now.
Varsity will be expanded for these games.

Blizzard
11-07-2009, 06:20 PM
i hate stadiums....with open ends!

WHy cant we build stadiums right in this country

In this case, it's because it is going to be a CFL stadium and for CFL football, not too many people will choose a seat behind the dead ball line when they can be sitting between the two goal lines.

Blizzard
11-07-2009, 06:21 PM
I bet you this thread is the most attention/discussion the Pan-am games will have.

Why? Do you think that Canada competing in both the men's and women's Pan-Am soccer tournaments isn't going to be a very big topic of discussion around here?

billyfly
11-07-2009, 06:24 PM
I am all for Brampton having a little 3,000 seater, but please don't tell me it is more needed there than in a city twice its size.[/quote]

I would take Mississauga over Brampton any day. I was just trying to keep Brampton happy by putting it on the border.

Varsity will be expanded for these games.[/quote]

I hated seeing the historic Varsity Stadium replaced with what is there now.

Blizzard
11-07-2009, 06:25 PM
Wow. Love the hate in this thread lol...

I do think that as a Toronto fronted bid, the money and facilities should stay in the GTA. Hamilton as part of the GTA is a bit of a joke. Golden Horseshoe corridor yes, GTA no.

If a stadium is built in Hamilton I do believe there are other considerations and forces at work (which is probably par for the course).

I think a new stadium should be built on the Mississauga/Brampton border to keep everyone happy (Sorry new Brampton/Milton).

I hope BMO is expanded as part of the games.

BTW - Varsity should never have been replaced by that sorry track and field stadium that is there now.

Considering that the province and the feds have committed much more money to this project than has the city, the games being spread around a little bit is only logical. It's not like the city is paying for the whole event.

The games are in 2015. Let's hope that BMO is expanded long before then.

Regarding the stadium in Hamilton, as the Ti-Cats need a new home and inevitably it would have involved funding from various levels of government, this plan makes perfect sense.

Blizzard
11-07-2009, 06:28 PM
I am all for Brampton having a little 3,000 seater, but please don't tell me it is more needed there than in a city twice its size.

I would take Mississauga over Brampton any day. I was just trying to keep Brampton happy by putting it on the border.

Varsity will be expanded for these games.[/quote]

I hated seeing the historic Varsity Stadium replaced with what is there now.[/quote]

Most of us did I believe but at the same time, something needed to be done with the old place. The facility they have is getting very good use and did you really want to try and park your car in that neighbourhood?

Sure the subway would have been a big bonus and I'd have loved it because I'd have been able to walk there from work but it is a facility that in regards to professional soccer ... well, it's time had passed.

billyfly
11-07-2009, 06:30 PM
I don't have a huge issue with the proposed Hamilton stadium. I know that its regions that get games not Cities.

But as a pro-Torontonian I am "greedy" and want as much $$$ as I can get for an under-funded city that by all accounts is the engine of this province.

billyfly
11-07-2009, 06:33 PM
The inside story about Varsity was a pro-track and field guy at UofT complained so much about the first soccer field plan (where the Argos where going to play).

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 06:34 PM
I hope they don't drop a stadium in between Btown and Mississauga. It needs to be closer to the city centre or somewhere with better sustainability.

Either way, its all a little irrelevant right now. Something like that probably won't be happening anytime in the near future.

boban
11-07-2009, 06:48 PM
I hated seeing the historic Varsity Stadium replaced with what is there now.
I am Croatian. You have no ideas the memories I have of that stadium.
I hate it too, but a change was needed there.

billyfly
11-07-2009, 06:52 PM
I know it needed work but they could have kept the facade etc and built a new real stadium (without the urinal troughs lol..)

Of course if that had happened the chain of events that led to TFC might not have ever been born.

boban
11-07-2009, 06:57 PM
This is the rendering of the Burlington stadium by the way:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4531/dsaok.jpg

Does look pretty sweet for a stadium of that size ... the stands have roof for heaven's sakes!!!
Ya I don't like that too much. Leaves the ends open.
If building for 12,000 then why not build something like this staium being done as we speak in Croatia. It's 10,000. Add a couple of rows around the whole thing and you have 12,000. Brings you right on top of the action.

http://nkistra1961.hr/galerija/AldoDrozdina08.jpg

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 07:24 PM
What I am saying is that these games are a farce, the short bus version of games, the games no serious city goes after. Winnipeg people is the only other city that has hosted this joke of a meaningless, useless, made up sports event. I dont give a rat's ass what the Canada soccer team will do in 2015, because my attention and focus will be on whether they qualified for the 2014 WC...so dont fool yourself that this is anything that anyone will care about other than the contractors salivating to milk the taxpayers for everything they got.

And I dont understand why people are hating on Brampton who is clearly part of the GTA. Whether you choose to live there or not, is your choice but what does that have to do with getting no piece of this boondoggle.

Cmon, we all know why Hamilton got this. People in Hamilton think they are the second city in the Horseshoe, when realitstically Hamilton is the armpit of Ontario and I would take any suburb in the GTA over Hamilton. But of course the liberals want back into Hamilton...and there is this romantic vision of what Hamilton can become. New flash, it aint becoming anything other than a few exit signs on the way to Niagara falls.

billyfly
11-07-2009, 07:27 PM
I think wzhxvy's ex lives in Hamilton. :D

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 07:31 PM
I think wzhxvy's ex lives in Hamilton. :D

LOL...good one. I spent two years of my life working downtown...two years I will never get back. Outside of the hospital and the university, there are zero redeeming features..well other than the nice flames when driving over the burlington bridge spewing toxic waste in the air...I speed a little bit when driving through that area.

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 07:32 PM
Rio de Jenairo was the last city to host the Pan Am Games ... you know Rio? ... the city that was just awarded the Olympics?

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 07:37 PM
Rio de Jenairo was the last city to host the Pan Am Games ... you know Rio? ... the city that was just awarded the Olympics?

I think it may have to do with little event they are hosting in 2014 too called the Word Cup...you know the World Cup ?

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 07:40 PM
Oh and one more thing Dirk Diggler buddy, Rio got the games this year because the Americans thought they could send a popular President to swing the vote but didnt realize that if there is anyone else in the world who has a more inflated view of self worth than them it was the corrupt IOC officials who like deals behind closed doors vs. the public PR campaign that the Americans created.

Dirk Diggler
11-07-2009, 07:47 PM
I think it may have to do with little event they are hosting in 2014 too called the Word Cup...you know the World Cup ?

My point was that it is too arrogant to think that the Pan Am games are too lowly for us ... it was not too lowly for a city that is going to be hosting the World Cup and the Olympics in the recent future. Torontonians need to get their heads out of the clouds.

wzhxvy
11-07-2009, 07:53 PM
My point was that it is too arrogant to think that the Pan Am games are too lowly for us ... it was not too lowly for a city that is going to be hosting the World Cup and the Olympics in the recent future. Torontonians need to get their heads out of the clouds.

Ok fair enough we agree to disagree. I think it is too lowly for us. I think we need to start building infrastructure in Toronto that is worthy of a city like ours including expanding the subway, building that imaginery link to the airport that I keep hearing about, building some sports infrastructure in areas that make sense, and not for political/misconstrued economic development purposes.

And I do see your point, a part of me agrees with your point, that it is a step. And instead of shooting for the stars first, we are now taking a more gradual approach. But everytime I think that, I ask myself then why the %$^# is Hamilton a part of this ? You think an Olympic bid will be sold through exciting videos of the Hamilton skyline...no...so its just a waste of money.

BakaGaijin
11-07-2009, 07:59 PM
They gave $8M for construction.
And the $5M for grass conversion is mostly paid by the $3.5M from the Edu transfer in 2008.

But you shouldn't be able to rent in the first place anyway.
That whole thing from the outset was retarded.

and demanded the naming rights in return........which they sold to Bank of Montreal for more than $8 million. So in reality, they paid nothing for construction, and actually profited from the deal. Pretty slick/weasel-like.

UltraSuperMegaMo
11-07-2009, 08:00 PM
I've read elsewhere that the stadium in Brampton's permanent capacity will be much lower the 10K, more 3K.

Miko
11-07-2009, 09:05 PM
It's included in the list of venues as a site for Football.

BMO is aso the venue for Rugby sevens.

TFC07
11-07-2009, 11:35 PM
We have Hershey Centre and you have Powerade ... why do you guys need another arena and stadium more than us again?

My argument is if Mississauga gets one, then Brampton should get a stadium as well. What makes Mississauga more deserving than Brampton?


I'm not sure where this cricket stuff is coming from but Malton is pretty much like Brampton ... if you think that Malton is shit, you can't have a good opinion about Brampton either.

Cricket comment was made because if Brampton gets a stadium, cricket (brampton cricket league) will be one of main tenants using stadium and also having our national cricket team playing in Brampton once in a while wouldn't be a bad idea.

How exactly Malton and Brampton the same? Have you ever been to Brampton and Malton before?




I am all for Brampton having a little 3,000 seater, but please don't tell me it is more needed there than in a city twice its size.


Half of 700,000 is 500,000? :facepalm:

Dirk Diggler
11-08-2009, 12:22 AM
And my point is that if Mississauga gets one, it does not automatically mean that Brampton needs to get one as well. I don't see two stadiums being built in the west end anytime soon (although two arenas were built so something like that can happen again) and I certainly hope that when one is build, they don't decide to place it in between Brampton and Mississauga. It needs to be located closer to the city centre and since Mississauga is a much bigger city, Mississauga city centre makes much more sense.

Mulder
11-08-2009, 01:25 AM
I think it may have to do with little event they are hosting in 2014 too called the Word Cup...you know the World Cup ?

Or the fact South America has never hosted any Olympic games?

Mulder
11-08-2009, 01:44 AM
Ok fair enough we agree to disagree. I think it is too lowly for us. I think we need to start building infrastructure in Toronto that is worthy of a city like ours including expanding the subway, building that imaginery link to the airport that I keep hearing about, building some sports infrastructure in areas that make sense, and not for political/misconstrued economic development purposes.

And I do see your point, a part of me agrees with your point, that it is a step. And instead of shooting for the stars first, we are now taking a more gradual approach. But everytime I think that, I ask myself then why the %$^# is Hamilton a part of this ? You think an Olympic bid will be sold through exciting videos of the Hamilton skyline...no...so its just a waste of money.

Nice.

Toronto's 2008 Olympic plan had Stadium renovations/new builds from Hamilton to Ottawa.

Again by reading this you just say "Toronto is not good enough for these games we can get better"

But losing 2 other Olympic votes is still not a sign?

The cost to prepare one of these bids (2008) for example was 22 million. Toronto was removed in the 2nd ballot out of a possible 4. For the 1996 games, Toronto never received more than 22 votes, and that was in the 4th round of 5. Hell they only got 22 votes for the 2008 games also.

Seems there is just 22 people on the IOC looking to have the games in Toronto.

boban
11-08-2009, 02:00 AM
and demanded the naming rights in return........which they sold to Bank of Montreal for more than $8 million. So in reality, they paid nothing for construction, and actually profited from the deal. Pretty slick/weasel-like.
Incorrect.
They gave $18M for construction initially.
$10M they get back form naming rights.
Therefore at the end of the day their investment is $8M - as I stated before.

boban
11-08-2009, 02:05 AM
My argument is if Mississauga gets one, then Brampton should get a stadium as well. What makes Mississauga more deserving than Brampton?



Cricket comment was made because if Brampton gets a stadium, cricket (brampton cricket league) will be one of main tenants using stadium and also having our national cricket team playing in Brampton once in a while wouldn't be a bad idea.

How exactly Malton and Brampton the same? Have you ever been to Brampton and Malton before?



Half of 700,000 is 500,000? :facepalm:
Mississauga is over 700,000 and Brampton is closer to 400,000.
Not exactly half but you get my point. its quicker than stating some actual number that really means nothing by itself.

boban
11-08-2009, 02:06 AM
And my point is that if Mississauga gets one, it does not automatically mean that Brampton needs to get one as well. I don't see two stadiums being built in the west end anytime soon (although two arenas were built so something like that can happen again) and I certainly hope that when one is build, they don't decide to place it in between Brampton and Mississauga. It needs to be located closer to the city centre and since Mississauga is a much bigger city, Mississauga city centre makes much more sense.
Exactly, but truthfully both could have one already.
There are soo many uses each city could have for a stadium of 3-5,000.
Has nothing to do with any 'games'.

nascarguy
11-08-2009, 02:08 AM
hamilton was getting a new Stadium with out the games anyways but the tiger cats would have had to ask the gov for some aid or get someone company with alot of money to help

ilikemusic
11-08-2009, 02:40 AM
I dont have a very informed opinion on the economics of the whole thing.

I think the Pan Am games are bush league though and it looks bad that Toronto is hosting them at all nevermind celebrating that we beat out Lima and Bogota.

Dirk Diggler
11-08-2009, 03:19 AM
I dont have a very informed opinion on the economics of the whole thing.

I think the Pan Am games are bush league though and it looks bad that Toronto is hosting them at all nevermind celebrating that we beat out Lima and Bogota.

Why does it look bad? In my opinion, the only thing that looks bad is us acting as if this event is beneath us when we have never hosted a bigger sporting event than this in the city.

Mulder
11-08-2009, 03:47 AM
Incorrect.
They gave $18M for construction initially.
$10M they get back form naming rights.
Therefore at the end of the day their investment is $8M - as I stated before.

10 million for a 10 year naming right. After you can expect similar deal or higher. Either way MLSE is profiting from public money and a public stadium

VPjr
11-08-2009, 03:58 AM
I'm hopeful that Futsal will be an official event and that the byproduct will be a permanent 1st class futsal center of excellence in the GTA with proper court surfaces (not gym floors)

I would like to see every municipality with at least 100,000 residents build an appropriately sized Soccer center of excellence. Mississsauga badly needs it. So does Brampton (the Powerade Center Site has a lot of land around it...that would make a lot of sense to me). The Sherwood Park plan for Burlington is very nice. that will do alot for that community and some surrounding areas. Maybe it will spur the growth of senior soccer in the far west end of the GTA (i.e. CSL).

C.Ronaldo
11-08-2009, 09:46 AM
I'm hopeful that Futsal will be an official event and that the byproduct will be a permanent 1st class futsal center of excellence in the GTA with proper court surfaces (not gym floors)

I would like to see every municipality with at least 100,000 residents build an appropriately sized Soccer center of excellence. Mississsauga badly needs it. So does Brampton (the Powerade Center Site has a lot of land around it...that would make a lot of sense to me). The Sherwood Park plan for Burlington is very nice. that will do alot for that community and some surrounding areas. Maybe it will spur the growth of senior soccer in the far west end of the GTA (i.e. CSL).

futsal arenas would be a dream come true.

even simple outdoors ones in the middle of small towns (they have these in Madeira, Portugal that were previously used for roller hockey). and people gather round to watch random games. even when little kids play.




move over road hockey.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 09:54 AM
Nice.

Toronto's 2008 Olympic plan had Stadium renovations/new builds from Hamilton to Ottawa.

Again by reading this you just say "Toronto is not good enough for these games we can get better"

But losing 2 other Olympic votes is still not a sign?

The cost to prepare one of these bids (2008) for example was 22 million. Toronto was removed in the 2nd ballot out of a possible 4. For the 1996 games, Toronto never received more than 22 votes, and that was in the 4th round of 5. Hell they only got 22 votes for the 2008 games also.

Seems there is just 22 people on the IOC looking to have the games in Toronto.


This sounds like the guy on CTV yesterday boasting about 20,000 room nights and 30M in revenue for the city in August. 30M for 2B !!!! Yeah thats good return...anytime someone in government starts talking about returns on investment it shows why they are in government.

I would rather spend 22M and lose than spend 2B on something meaningless that includes handouts to Hamilton.

boban
11-08-2009, 12:09 PM
This sounds like the guy on CTV yesterday boasting about 20,000 room nights and 30M in revenue for the city in August. 30M for 2B !!!! Yeah thats good return...anytime someone in government starts talking about returns on investment it shows why they are in government.

I would rather spend 22M and lose than spend 2B on something meaningless that includes handouts to Hamilton.
You need to stop before people here think your ignorance is actually a permanent thing.

boban
11-08-2009, 12:11 PM
Why does it look bad? In my opinion, the only thing that looks bad is us acting as if this event is beneath us when we have never hosted a bigger sporting event than this in the city.
Exactly.
Also, this is good exercise to show Toronto can host games of this magnitude.
This only strengthens our chances for bidding for the Olympics on the future, not hindering.

boban
11-08-2009, 12:14 PM
I'm hopeful that Futsal will be an official event and that the byproduct will be a permanent 1st class futsal center of excellence in the GTA with proper court surfaces (not gym floors)

I would like to see every municipality with at least 100,000 residents build an appropriately sized Soccer center of excellence. Mississsauga badly needs it. So does Brampton (the Powerade Center Site has a lot of land around it...that would make a lot of sense to me). The Sherwood Park plan for Burlington is very nice. that will do alot for that community and some surrounding areas. Maybe it will spur the growth of senior soccer in the far west end of the GTA (i.e. CSL).
My thoughts also. That is why when those new hershey fields went up 2 years ago I was greatly disappointed it was not a stadium. It is just shocking a city with 3/4 million doesn't have one field with a stadium of at least 3,500.
Someone has to have a talk with Hazel.

Beach_Red
11-08-2009, 12:28 PM
This sounds like the guy on CTV yesterday boasting about 20,000 room nights and 30M in revenue for the city in August. 30M for 2B !!!! Yeah thats good return...anytime someone in government starts talking about returns on investment it shows why they are in government.



Sure, we would all like it if the private sector in this country had some balls, but they don't, they never did. From the very beginning with the railroad it's always been the government - either investing directly or making sure the "private sector" was completely protected and a monopoly.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 12:46 PM
Sure, we would all like it if the private sector in this country had some balls, but they don't, they never did. From the very beginning with the railroad it's always been the government - either investing directly or making sure the "private sector" was completely protected and a monopoly.

I am not sure its about balls. The private sector makes investments based on rational investment criteria and expected returns, while Government makes decisions based on a hope and a dream that the return will magically materialize with all these non-quantifiable, subjective measures. Every once in a while the Government gets it right, and you see good returns, but thats 1 out of 10, the other 9 times, its just a stupid, ill conceived idea. If they were in business, 1 out of 10, gets them fired.

Beach_Red
11-08-2009, 01:01 PM
I am not sure its about balls. The private sector makes investments based on rational investment criteria and expected returns, while Government makes decisions based on a hope and a dream that the return will magically materialize with all these non-quantifiable, subjective measures. Every once in a while the Government gets it right, and you see good returns, but thats 1 out of 10, the other 9 times, its just a stupid, ill conceived idea. If they were in business, 1 out of 10, gets them fired.

If only that were true ;).

Certainly governments make poor decisions all the time.

But in Canada, at least, our private sector has a very poor record of stepping up.

Look at pro sports in Toronto as an example. This market is in the top 5 in North America and vastly underserved - and there's no competiion at the ownsership level. One company has the pro hockey, basketball and soccer all to itself. And even then, they got the government to build the soccer stadium, or we wouldn't have a tam at all.

Sure, the private sector can't take too much risk, but in this country they are far too conservative and rely far too heavily on protectionism (I work in TV, it's even worse than pro sports ;)). Look how hard MLSE will work to keep another hockey team out of the market? How can they claim to believe in the private sector and fight so hard against any kind of competition?

We do get what we deserve, I guess, and in this country we have no history of entrepeneurship at all. We can vote for our government and get them to do some of the things we want, but we can't vote for the private sector to make them better.

Look how many people on here would actually spend more money on soccer if the team was run better, but do you think MLSE will ever ever run it better? When they can just make sure they have a monopoly?

ag futbol
11-08-2009, 01:43 PM
I am not sure its about balls. The private sector makes investments based on rational investment criteria and expected returns, while Government makes decisions based on a hope and a dream that the return will magically materialize with all these non-quantifiable, subjective measures. Every once in a while the Government gets it right, and you see good returns, but thats 1 out of 10, the other 9 times, its just a stupid, ill conceived idea. If they were in business, 1 out of 10, gets them fired.
I'm sorry but i have to take issue with this (as someone who works in the financial sector as is generally very rah-rah capitalism). It absolutely blows my mind that people think the public sector is just a black hole for money while the private sector can do no wrong.

You’d be shocked to learn that there are plenty of capable people with incredible qualifications and talent that work for the government. Much of the same methodology you see in private business still applies. There are many efficient and worthwhile programs provided by the government.

On the flip side you’d, probably be shocked about how the public sector isn’t an exclusive entity by any means when it comes to wasting money at times. And no, Adam Smith and the invisible hand doesn’t show up and smite those into oblivion who waste money.

Life isn’t so black and white as you’re making it out to be.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 02:00 PM
If only that were true ;).

Certainly governments make poor decisions all the time.

But in Canada, at least, our private sector has a very poor record of stepping up.

Look at pro sports in Toronto as an example. This market is in the top 5 in North America and vastly underserved - and there's no competiion at the ownsership level. One company has the pro hockey, basketball and soccer all to itself. And even then, they got the government to build the soccer stadium, or we wouldn't have a tam at all.

Sure, the private sector can't take too much risk, but in this country they are far too conservative and rely far too heavily on protectionism (I work in TV, it's even worse than pro sports ;)). Look how hard MLSE will work to keep another hockey team out of the market? How can they claim to believe in the private sector and fight so hard against any kind of competition?

We do get what we deserve, I guess, and in this country we have no history of entrepeneurship at all. We can vote for our government and get them to do some of the things we want, but we can't vote for the private sector to make them better.

Look how many people on here would actually spend more money on soccer if the team was run better, but do you think MLSE will ever ever run it better? When they can just make sure they have a monopoly?

But do you think the fact that most of our teams are owned by MLSE has to do with lack of private sector interest ? I dont think so, I think its because all the money making properties have been snapped up by MLSE and they will not let them go for cheap...so unless someone wants to overpay, then why would they jump in.

And Rogers owns the Blue Jays...if they keep it up, I am sure they will sell eventually and there will be interested buyers out there, who will get the Government to build a new open air stadium, the team will sell out and all will be good again.

Dirk Diggler
11-08-2009, 02:05 PM
Beach Red is right ... the private sector is balls in this country. Not just for professional sports but for amateur sports especially. In the States, all athletes are financed by the private sector ... there is very little if any financial assistance from the government. In Canada, our athletes are constantly crying to the government for more support because the corporations only support a select few (usually athletes who are already at the top of their respective sport).

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 02:07 PM
I'm sorry but i have to take issue with this (as someone who works in the financial sector as is generally very rah-rah capitalism). It absolutely blows my mind that people think the public sector is just a black hole for money while the private sector can do no wrong.

You’d be shocked to learn that there are plenty of capable people with incredible qualifications and talent that work for the government. Much of the same methodology you see in private business still applies. There are many efficient and worthwhile programs provided by the government.

On the flip side you’d, probably be shocked about how the public sector isn’t an exclusive entity by any means when it comes to wasting money at times. And no, Adam Smith and the invisible hand doesn’t show up and smite those into oblivion who waste money.

Life isn’t so black and white as you’re making it out to be.


Its not so black and white that if you dont make money in business and make poor investments that you will lose your job ? How is that not true ? Unlike Government who prints money when they need it, the private sector has constraints that force them to be more efficient. Are they 100% efficient of course not...I never said that.

Government is playing with my money not someone else's. Thats the point. And when some public servant says he is excited by $30M of revenue when its costing us $2B, it shows the ignorance.

And I am sure there are smart people who work within Government, but to say that Government is somehow an efficient operation is simply not true. And yes Government does have some good programs, but history shows that whatever they touch, they are more likely to screw it up than help it.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 02:10 PM
Beach Red is right ... the private sector is balls in this country. Not just for professional sports but for amateur sports especially. In the States, all athletes are financed by the private sector ... there is very little if any financial assistance from the government. In Canada, our athletes are constantly crying to the government for more support because the corporations only support a select few (usually athletes who are already at the top of their respective sport).

How many times did we hear at the last Olympics about this Canadian had "his personal best time/effort/score". Who the F cares ? We send way too many athletes to these competitions because of our mentality that someone is owed to go to the Olympics because they are the best in Canada. If they do not have a chance to win a medal, then NO they should not get sponsorships and get a free trip to the Olympics. Our private companies are more conservative by nature because we Canadians are more conservative/cheap by nature...

Beach_Red
11-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Its not so black and white that if you dont make money in business and make poor investments that you will lose your job ? How is that not true ?


Wow. The whole history of business in this country is that if you don't make money, you go to the governemt. Either they invest directly in your company (they may call it a "loan" but just never ask for it back) or they put up some kind of protectionist walls. And companies never have to change their boards of directors or CEOs to get these things form government - they never have.

For a Canadian company to actually change is ways - like Massey-fergunson, maybe - the screwups have to consistent and many and over many years.

If only business in this country was run the way you say it is.

boban
11-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Government is playing with my money not someone else's. Thats the point. And when some public servant says he is excited by $30M of revenue when its costing us $2B, it shows the ignorance.
Obviously this is flying over your head.
Affordable housing is going to come out of this. And they are being sped up because of this. It is not just about revenue coming in. How do you put a price up for affordable housing. Or what about the transit improvements that private sector will use? In Olympic bids a transit lines to the airport were envisioned. yes it cost money but we don't have them with no Olympics. The benefit would be immense - to the private sector no less.
Investments in infrastructure costs. The benefits of those are not just measure in revenue coming in during a 2 week period.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Wow. The whole history of business in this country is that if you don't make money, you go to the governemt. Either they invest directly in your company (they may call it a "loan" but just never ask for it back) or they put up some kind of protectionist walls. And companies never have to change their boards of directors or CEOs to get these things form government - they never have.

For a Canadian company to actually change is ways - like Massey-fergunson, maybe - the screwups have to consistent and many and over many years.

If only business in this country was run the way you say it is.


I think the volume of bankruptcies in Canada would say otherwise. Did some companies in Canada get a free pass (ie Air Canada), yes agreed, but that is the exception. I would argue they would have been better left alone to die the death they deserved.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 02:34 PM
Obviously this is flying over your head.
Affordable housing is going to come out of this. And they are being sped up because of this. It is not just about revenue coming in. How do you put a price up for affordable housing. Or what about the transit improvements that private sector will use? In Olympic bids a transit lines to the airport were envisioned. yes it cost money but we don't have them with no Olympics. The benefit would be immense - to the private sector no less.
Investments in infrastructure costs. The benefits of those are not just measure in revenue coming in during a 2 week period.

Well of course when someone doesnt agree with you, you insult them. How do you put a price on affordable housing ? You think this is some voodoo science that no one understands ? Ever heard of urban and economic development. Its actually taught in universities. The fact that you have bought this argument that you cant put a value on this stuff is your choice, but the fact of the matter is that for $2B we will be receiving a lot less value than we spent.

Beach_Red
11-08-2009, 02:38 PM
I think the volume of bankruptcies in Canada would say otherwise. Did some companies in Canada get a free pass (ie Air Canada), yes agreed, but that is the exception. I would argue they would have been better left alone to die the death they deserved.


Again, I have to say, "If only." If only Air Canada was the exception - it's not, it's the rule. Of course companies in Canada have to be of a certain size - it's part of or respecting authority too much. But every industry in Canada benefits a huge amount from government investment or protectionism - it's our history and we change very slowly.

The bankruptcies are most often small or medium sized companies, or not very well-connected politically. Because there is almost no seperation of public and private in Canada. We really haven't changed much since the Family Compact.

So, we get things like the Olympics or the Pan Am games when those private companies want to do something, but don't want to take risks (and have no history of taking risks) so they turn to their friends in government.

I would love to be able to blame this on government - and sure, the government will get the blame for wasting our money, but the reason they do it is because they serve our so-called "private" businesses first and the citizens second.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 02:43 PM
I am not sure our Government is any different than other Governments in that regard. Look at the US Govt or worse European Govts. Its all about the size of the company, how well connected they are, which ridings they are in, etc. Of course. In the US, the state governments do that dirty work.

But at the end of the day, I do think private companies are much more accountable for how and where they invest.

ag futbol
11-08-2009, 02:48 PM
Its not so black and white that if you dont make money in business and make poor investments that you will lose your job ? How is that not true ? Unlike Government who prints money when they need it, the private sector has constraints that force them to be more efficient. Are they 100% efficient of course not...I never said that.

Government is playing with my money not someone else's. Thats the point. And when some public servant says he is excited by $30M of revenue when its costing us $2B, it shows the ignorance.

And I am sure there are smart people who work within Government, but to say that Government is somehow an efficient operation is simply not true. And yes Government does have some good programs, but history shows that whatever they touch, they are more likely to screw it up than help it.
Look, I could spout off something that’s multiple pages long and reply to each of you’re points individually but in order to keep in down to a reasonable level I will leave it at this:

Things are run, not by Corporations or Governments, but by people. People, will maximize their own utility first and maximize the gov’t/company utility when it makes sense to them. Instilling a system that allows someone to work in their own best interest and the organization's best interest is possible in both a private and public sector scenario.

Whether a specific project is worth while, it's all about the specifics… not a very sexy answer I know, rather boring, proof is in the details kind of stuff. But that’s simply how it is. The fact that it’s being undertaken in the public or private sector means squat.

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Look, I could spout off something that’s multiple pages long and reply to each of you’re points individually but in order to keep in down to a reasonable level I will leave it at this:

Things are run, not by Corporations or Governments, but by people. People, will maximize their own utility first and maximize the gov’t/company utility when it makes sense to them. Instilling a system that allows someone to work in their own best interest and the organization's best interest is possible in both a private and public sector scenario.

Whether a specific project is worth while, it's all about the specifics… not a very sexy answer I know, rather boring, proof is in the details kind of stuff. But that’s simply how it is. The fact that it’s being undertaken in the public or private sector means squat.

I see it very differently. Your argument assumes people are the same and the same people are attracted by a career in the private sector as the public sector. And the fact that a system can be instilled in both the private and public sectors ignores the fact that in reality, the same system does not exist.

And yes of course every project should be evaluated on its own merits. And this project is a bad one.

boban
11-08-2009, 07:14 PM
Well of course when someone doesnt agree with you, you insult them. How do you put a price on affordable housing ? You think this is some voodoo science that no one understands ? Ever heard of urban and economic development. Its actually taught in universities. The fact that you have bought this argument that you cant put a value on this stuff is your choice, but the fact of the matter is that for $2B we will be receiving a lot less value than we spent.
When someone doesn't agree with you you say they insult you.
I respect you don't like the games coming here, but you trash Hamilton on every level for being part of these games and you fail to acknowledge other peoples points/arguments. Just because you don't see the benefits, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
Yes it will cost money to build these facilities. I acknowledge and accept that. But I don't have the misconception to make the money back in a span 2 weeks. That us just being realistic or practical.
Lastly, a lot of government money is spent today that helps private business as well its citizens. Packaging them in a games bid is bad optics more than anything else.

billyfly
11-08-2009, 08:45 PM
I was thinking today (don't laugh) why don't the Argos make a push to get a stadium money and take it away from the Ti-cats?

They feel the city owed them BMO, why can't the new owner say "Hey, where's my stadium?"

Whoop
11-08-2009, 08:47 PM
They are supposed to get new owners, no?

I wouldn't invest in the CFL right now.

billyfly
11-08-2009, 08:49 PM
The BC Lions owner has effectively been paying the bills for a year now.

They are talking about dual-ownership if you can believe it.

Dirk Diggler
11-08-2009, 09:10 PM
I was thinking today (don't laugh) why don't the Argos make a push to get a stadium money and take it away from the Ti-cats?

They feel the city owed them BMO, why can't the new owner say "Hey, where's my stadium?"

That is not going to fly. The rest of the province is not going to stand for the government funding another stadium in Toronto when one is needed so badly in Hamilton. The Argos had their chance and they effed it up ... for good. I don't imagine them getting a new stadium until the Skydome is demolished ... they are stuck there for good lol.

billyfly
11-08-2009, 09:16 PM
You never know.

devioustrevor
11-08-2009, 10:28 PM
I'm wondering. Is not much of this $2B for infrastructure that the GTA needs anyways?

If so it's not really being spent on the Pan Am Games, it's being spent on needed infrastructure and the Pan Am Games is providing the impetus.

rocker
11-08-2009, 11:11 PM
I'm wondering. Is not much of this $2B for infrastructure that the GTA needs anyways?

If so it's not really being spent on the Pan Am Games, it's being spent on needed infrastructure and the Pan Am Games is providing the impetus.

yeah, these big events are basically good for getting shit done that would never happen otherwise. without the pan am games, nobody would be spending any money on sports infrastructure. so it's definitely a force that brings all the politicians together and leaves a legacy.

Blizzard
11-08-2009, 11:46 PM
I'm wondering. Is not much of this $2B for infrastructure that the GTA needs anyways?

If so it's not really being spent on the Pan Am Games, it's being spent on needed infrastructure and the Pan Am Games is providing the impetus.

You've nailed it. We take advantage of the Pan Am's and the money invested in them to upgrade our current facilities and build a bunch of new ones not to mention the Athlete's Village will become affordable housing once the games are over.

Yes, it looks expensive but let's not forget that a lot of this money would have had to be spent at some time anyway!

wzhxvy
11-08-2009, 11:51 PM
When someone doesn't agree with you you say they insult you.
I respect you don't like the games coming here, but you trash Hamilton on every level for being part of these games and you fail to acknowledge other peoples points/arguments. Just because you don't see the benefits, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
Yes it will cost money to build these facilities. I acknowledge and accept that. But I don't have the misconception to make the money back in a span 2 weeks. That us just being realistic or practical.
Lastly, a lot of government money is spent today that helps private business as well its citizens. Packaging them in a games bid is bad optics more than anything else.

You are the one suggesting arguments are flying over my head as if you are so freaking brilliant that I am missing your oh so intelligent arguments. I dont recall insulting you, I just dont agree with you. Go read what you said, and see who is throwing crap around. Hamilton is a dump and you will not convince me otherwise, and 2B is way too much too spend. But if we must spend it, it should be spent in the GTA. That is my point.

boban
11-09-2009, 12:05 AM
You are the one suggesting arguments are flying over my head as if you are so freaking brilliant that I am missing your oh so intelligent arguments. I dont recall insulting you, I just dont agree with you. Go read what you said, and see who is throwing crap around. Hamilton is a dump and you will not convince me otherwise, and 2B is way too much too spend. But if we must spend it, it should be spent in the GTA. That is my point.
I wasn't insulting you. It was a simple statement.
If you felt it was it's in your head.
Almost to the one no one is sided with your argument.
Hamilton being a dump in your eyes has no bearing. The city is in need of some rejuvenation as it does serve a role in the Golden Horseshoe.
Just because it's ugly now doesn't mean it can't be made attractive for the future.

Fort York Redcoat
11-09-2009, 08:23 AM
I agree with the fact that the only aspect of this announcement worth talking about is the money but doesn't it make all the celebration all the more farsical? There were Olympians on the cover of the papers. Why weren't there Pan-Am winners? Would anyone recognize them?

Yay! Go Money! bit sad.

ilikemusic
11-09-2009, 10:34 AM
Why does it look bad? In my opinion, the only thing that looks bad is us acting as if this event is beneath us when we have never hosted a bigger sporting event than this in the city.

It is beneath us.

Toronto shouldnt be wasting money on anything that wont attract international attention. Nobody travels to the Pan-Am games except for friends and family.

Events like this are a big enough sinkhole. If we have to throw the money away, we should insist on throwing it at the best.

How many people here have ever watched or cared about an event at the Pan-Am games? I know I never have. Was there a single televised event from the last Pan-Am games? I follow sports as closely as anybody and I didnt even know the Pan-Am games were held in 2007.

Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

Toronto's Pan Am games bid is the Canadian sporting equivalent of the old Mad TV bit.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gawker/2008/05/Lowered_Expectations-1.jpg


We 'won' the right to host an event that nobody cares about anyways.

bones
11-09-2009, 11:26 AM
2B is a lot of cash to be investing in the games but since it's government money not all of that 2B was collected from Toronto so not all of it should go INTO Toronto period. These games are spread out over the Golden Horseshoe which Hamilton was and is still a big part of. The "lovely" view over the skyway bridge does paint a horrific picture of Hamilton but just as the Jane and Finch area is to Toronto, so does Hamilton have it's eye sores. There are really nice areas in the Hammer if you go looking for it just as with any major city. Let's take Harlem for instance, no one in their right mind would want to live in Harlem.....oh how the image has changed with investment.

Having said this I, for one, will be VERY sad to see old Ivor Wynne replaced. If you ask anyone who has played in the CFL, the most intimidating stadium to play in IS Ivor Wynne. The fans are right on top of you, there is no room to run out of bounds and the wind is hellish come playoff time. This ain't no pretty boy Orange Bowl. It will be missed as a venue by more than 1 CFL fan.

Bones...

Beach_Red
11-09-2009, 11:36 AM
Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.




Yes, it's either that or Toronto stays a virgin, which it's getting way too old to be. Gotta get into the game at some point.

Or should the city keep mounting unsuccessful Olympic bids forever?

C.Ronaldo
11-09-2009, 01:12 PM
what if this bid takes the Pan-Am games to the next level?

just like Canada did with the U-20 world cup.


think outside the box. If Toronto nails this, then a commonwealth games or even the olympics is feasible.




It is beneath us.

Toronto shouldnt be wasting money on anything that wont attract international attention. Nobody travels to the Pan-Am games except for friends and family.

Events like this are a big enough sinkhole. If we have to throw the money away, we should insist on throwing it at the best.

How many people here have ever watched or cared about an event at the Pan-Am games? I know I never have. Was there a single televised event from the last Pan-Am games? I follow sports as closely as anybody and I didnt even know the Pan-Am games were held in 2007.

Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

Toronto's Pan Am games bid is the Canadian sporting equivalent of the old Mad TV bit.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gawker/2008/05/Lowered_Expectations-1.jpg


We 'won' the right to host an event that nobody cares about anyways.

drewski
11-09-2009, 01:25 PM
some people have pointed out that the facilities for the PAG aren't good enough for the Olympics, but if done right (ie. planned with expansion in mind), they could definitely help with future Olympic bids

Dirk Diggler
11-09-2009, 02:29 PM
Yes, it's either that or Toronto stays a virgin, which it's getting way too old to be. Gotta get into the game at some point.

Or should the city keep mounting unsuccessful Olympic bids forever?

Exactly ... I think someone forgot to tell Rio that the Pan Am games is beneath them ... which it should be considering how they are hosting the World Cup and the Olympics where as the biggest event we have hosted is the Fifa U20 World Cup lol.

boban
11-09-2009, 02:37 PM
Exactly ... I think someone forgot to tell Rio that the Pan Am games is beneath them ... which it should be considering how they are hosting the World Cup and the Olympics where as the biggest event we have hosted is the Fifa U20 World Cup lol.
+1 :thumbsup:

Pookie
11-09-2009, 02:54 PM
i wonder about BMO Field expansion... it would be a great way to get expansion without MLSE having to pay a cent. They could play the soccer there , without the track around the field that the Hamilton stadium is supposed to have.

I think you are on the right track with expansion.

I just hope that they don't get greedy with the money and build something in the 40k-50k range.

28-30k is what I'd consider ideal with upgrades to washroom facilities included in that project.

billyfly
11-09-2009, 03:01 PM
^Yeah some kind of pisser where I don't have to leave my seat.

rocker
11-09-2009, 03:29 PM
^Yeah some kind of pisser where I don't have to leave my seat.

great! tubes under the seat... pull it up, stick it in, and whiz!
or maybe troughs in front of every row. south end guys are already standing up!

Mulder
11-09-2009, 04:40 PM
what if this bid takes the Pan-Am games to the next level?

just like Canada did with the U-20 world cup.


think outside the box. If Toronto nails this, then a commonwealth games or even the olympics is feasible.

Exactly, if Torontians go around saying they don't care about the Pam-Am Games. It won't look good in the eyes of the IOC.

They won't see it as "Toronto doesn't care about these games because they are not the olympics"

They'll see "Toronto doesn't care about amutuer sports, why should they host the biggest amutuer sports event in the world?"

ag futbol
11-09-2009, 08:30 PM
Maybe it's just me, but i hold the IOC in the lowest esteme possible. Puture taking 200 Jack Warner's and putting them in a room ... It's a disgrace that the Olympics continue to fly the "amateur" banner like it's something sacred while the bureaucrats suck the money away that should be going to the average athlete to help make ends meet.

Personally, regardless of what this city wins there's a lot more things that going to make it world class / dumpy rather than a sporting event. A olympic legacy won't even come close to saving us from an underbuilt subway and another 10 years of condo developer madness downtown.

DichioTFC
11-10-2009, 03:57 AM
Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

We 'won' the right to host an event that nobody cares about anyways.

True, nobody cares about the Pan Am Games, but there will be a legacy leftover from the Games (revitalized waterfront, East End BMO expansion, new stadium in Hamilton, social housing) and its the good outcomes that I think most people are happiest with. It's basically Olympics-style legacy without the Olympic-style leftover debt.

Keystone FC
11-10-2009, 04:26 AM
True, nobody cares about the Pan Am Games, but there will be a legacy leftover from the Games (revitalized waterfront, East End BMO expansion, new stadium in Hamilton, social housing) and its the good outcomes that I think most people are happiest with. It's basically Olympics-style legacy without the Olympic-style leftover debt.

Not only that but this is the Pan Am Games. Athletes AND people from North and South America will come into Toronto and the surrounding areas. This means money spent in Toronto and the rest of Horseshoe. BIG money. Hotels, resturants, night clubs, bars, and pubs will see an influx of cash for these games.
And like you said there will be a 'legacy' of sorts that will need to be kept up for future endevors which traslates into jobs and employment.

Fort York Redcoat
11-10-2009, 08:41 AM
without the Olympic-style leftover debt.

We don't know that yet.

Money. Jobs. Yay.

I'm still not watching a minute of it. So who does? I mean outside of family of athletes?

C.Ronaldo
11-10-2009, 09:29 AM
not even a minute?

your not interested in watching futsal at all?

or beach volleyball?
speed blading?
BMX?


come on, thats not fair to say. These are still our Cdn athletes that need our support




We don't know that yet.

Money. Jobs. Yay.

I'm still not watching a minute of it. So who does? I mean outside of family of athletes?

C.Ronaldo
11-10-2009, 09:34 AM
Not only that but this is the Pan Am Games. Athletes AND people from North and South America will come into Toronto and the surrounding areas. This means money spent in Toronto and the rest of Horseshoe. BIG money. Hotels, resturants, night clubs, bars, and pubs will see an influx of cash for these games.
And like you said there will be a 'legacy' of sorts that will need to be kept up for future endevors which traslates into jobs and employment.

and people say its only family and friends.

I think they fail to realise, thats A LOT of family and friends. A LOT MORE than we currently get.

And these are all people in spending moods.


Win or Lose, someone is buying more than one beer to celebrate or ease the pain.

Fort York Redcoat
11-10-2009, 11:19 AM
not even a minute?

your not interested in watching futsal at all?

or beach volleyball?
speed blading?
BMX?


come on, thats not fair to say. These are still our Cdn athletes that need our support

Nope. Not interested. I respect the athletes that spend so much time at something but I prefer a particular sport played at a particular level.

billyfly
11-10-2009, 11:26 AM
I heard that there will be about 8500 athletes here. Twice the number of the Winter Olympics.

Whoop
11-10-2009, 11:29 AM
Sounds about right billy.

Summer sports are bigger than winter sports.

I might check out some events depending on the price.

Only problem is I'll have to suffer through seeing the US dominate most of the events.

billyfly
11-10-2009, 11:38 AM
I just HOPE that it leaves more of a facility legacy than a debt one.

billyfly
11-10-2009, 11:49 AM
Just to add to the discussion. There is serious talk that Toronto will (having a bunch of new infrastructure) bid for the Olympics in 2020 or 2024.

drewski
11-10-2009, 11:51 AM
just looking over the bid book and they called TorontoFC "the Toronto Football Club".

billyfly
11-10-2009, 11:53 AM
http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=5463

Not to direct traffic from this site but its a good read.

boban
11-10-2009, 11:57 AM
just looking over the bid book and they called TorontoFC "the Toronto Football Club".
It's what it is.

Blizzard
11-10-2009, 12:04 PM
Nope. Not interested. I respect the athletes that spend so much time at something but I prefer a particular sport played at a particular level.

There is a soccer tournament too you know. It's not the World Cup but do you really expect us to believe you won't be tuning in to see Canada play?

Blizzard
11-10-2009, 12:06 PM
http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?t=5463

Not to direct traffic from this site but its a good read.

Urban Toronto is a great site!

billyfly
11-10-2009, 12:09 PM
Yup.

Fort York Redcoat
11-10-2009, 12:11 PM
There is a soccer tournament too you know. It's not the World Cup but do you really expect us to believe you won't be tuning in to see Canada play?

Great point. We'll see what team plays but I find it rank to watch what I'm going to assume isn't our first squad in a mickey mouse tourny when the big boys can't get coverage when they play outside the country. That's my personal priority and I know I'm not alone.

C.Ronaldo
11-10-2009, 12:26 PM
these arent 2nd rate athletes

the same swimmers u see in the summer, play in the pan am games. (maybe not phelps but the majority)

just fewer countries.

athletes use these games to prepare.

also
The last Pan Ams were televised on American television and around the world. Unfortunately, CBC didn't buy the television rights to broadcast the games.

deltox
11-10-2009, 12:35 PM
rugby sevens will be at Fletchers fields and not BMO.......BMO is for Football only during the games

deltox
11-10-2009, 12:46 PM
http://www.toronto2015.org/lang/en/about/venue_plan

C.Ronaldo
11-10-2009, 03:10 PM
what the heck is rugby 7 and footbal 5 and 7?

isnt football 5 a side just outdoor futsal?

C.Ronaldo
11-10-2009, 03:24 PM
maybe one day we get one of these b.c of the pan am games

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Tokyo_rooftop_football.jpg

boban
11-13-2009, 05:20 PM
Looks like a few people in Burlington are not happy about the proposed stadium going up in Sherwood Park.

http://www.thespec.com/article/671618

So much so that they have hired a law firm to make sure it does not happen.

http://www.thespec.com/article/672332

Come on Hazel, wield your magic and make this happen in Mississauga.

Dirk Diggler
11-13-2009, 06:16 PM
Good ... fuck em ... this is the perfect opportunity for Mississauga to swoop in.

boban
11-13-2009, 06:29 PM
^^ Precisely my thoughts.

Bars92
11-13-2009, 10:38 PM
Where would you find the real estate in Mississauga though?

billyfly
11-13-2009, 10:43 PM
But where in Mississauga though?

EDIT: I meant where IN Mississauga, not where IS Mississauga. It was a funny type-o. Sorry. :D

boban
11-14-2009, 04:34 AM
But where is Mississauga though?
Ha ha funny.


Where would you find the real estate in Mississauga though?
There are fields everywhere.
Remember, it's not a 20,000 seater that is needed.
10,000 seats will do just fine so you don't need that much vast space.
There is room down in Clarkson (SW Miss), UofT Miss, Confed Pkwy & Burhamthorpe, West Side Hwy 10 north of Bristol. That's just to name a few.
Essentially they have many options.

billyfly
11-14-2009, 09:23 AM
Ha ha funny.


There are fields everywhere.
Remember, it's not a 20,000 seater that is needed.
10,000 seats will do just fine so you don't need that much vast space.
There is room down in Clarkson (SW Miss), UofT Miss, Confed Pkwy & Burhamthorpe, West Side Hwy 10 north of Bristol. That's just to name a few.
Essentially they have many options.

Sold to Condo developpers I think.

C.Ronaldo
11-14-2009, 10:25 AM
mayor@mississauga.ca

email her

she will make this happen if enough people convince her.


Id hate to see it around the hershey centre, but its better than nothing

boban
11-14-2009, 10:27 AM
Sold to Condo developpers I think.
Maybe. But who knows, you can always buy back.
Point is they have a few spots in the city to put it in.

DigzTFC!
11-14-2009, 11:15 AM
I know this will be met with some venom, but to me it makes more sense as a legacy project to put this stadium in London Ontario. I do realize this is a Golden Horseshoe bid, but I do have a rationale.

Why? Because if the Ti-Cats owner intends to upgrade the new Pan-Am stadium so that the CFL team can play there ($50 Million is the number being asked), he only wants to put a soccer team in place to generate more ROI. Thus, it would seem unlikely that a USL/TOA team would play in the Sherwood Stadium and it appears the residents of Burlington do not want the stadium.

However, a stadium in London could be the home of the Forrest City team, which could pave the way for them to elevate their status to 2nd division. Putting it in London would allow for two teams to be created, one in London and one in Hamilton. As these type of events are suppose to leave a legacy, it seems like a good fit, but it being a Golden Horseshoe bid it might not.

boban
11-14-2009, 11:24 AM
mayor@mississauga.ca

email her

she will make this happen if enough people convince her.


Id hate to see it around the hershey centre, but its better than nothing
I spoke to a person that I know. They are pretty involved in development/construction.
Mississauga is finally looking into a 3,000-5,000 stadium.
Let's just crank it up to 10,000 for these games.
But I agree, we should get people to pressure the city to pursue this.

boban
11-14-2009, 11:26 AM
I know this will be met with some venom, but to me it makes more sense as a legacy project to put this stadium in London Ontario. I do realize this is a Golden Horseshoe bid, but I do have a rationale.

Why? Because if the Ti-Cats owner intends to upgrade the new Pan-Am stadium so that the CFL team can play there ($50 Million is the number being asked), he only wants to put a soccer team in place to generate more ROI. Thus, it would seem unlikely that a USL/TOA team would play in the Sherwood Stadium and it appears the residents of Burlington do not want the stadium.

However, a stadium in London could be the home of the Forrest City team, which could pave the way for them to elevate their status to 2nd division. Putting it in London would allow for two teams to be created, one in London and one in Hamilton. As these type of events are suppose to leave a legacy, it seems like a good fit, but it being a Golden Horseshoe bid it might not.
You neglected Mississauga's USL team. ;)

DigzTFC!
11-14-2009, 11:57 AM
And what if you got one? Would you support TFC and Mississauga with your time and money?

I think we know how that story ends :scarf:

London would be a better fit to house a team. Anyway, the only other spot within the GH would be Kitchener, but they don't have any known interest in establishing a second division team.

boban
11-14-2009, 12:15 PM
And what if you got one? Would you support TFC and Mississauga with your time and money?

I think we know how that story ends :scarf:

London would be a better fit to house a team. Anyway, the only other spot within the GH would be Kitchener, but they don't have any known interest in establishing a second division team.

You are assuming a lot my friend.
We all know the tight ass biz model MLSE employs. Expansion at the NSS would be at minimum if they have anything to say about it. I don't see much past 25,000. Demand will only grow though as the sport gets a stronger foothold in the GTA as well as the country. In this instance it wouldn't be a far stretch to think that Mississauga couldn't get 5000-7000 per game in their own city.

DigzTFC!
11-14-2009, 01:32 PM
Believe me, the more well supported Canadian Profressional soccer teams there are the happier I would be.

If Mississauga did get a team and supported it with those levels despite TFC 30 minutes away, it would be a great benefit in terms of the Voyaguer cup and Canadian soccer.

I just don't see teams being created with that locality when you consider how regional rights typically work for team franchises or fans preferring to support a lower league when they can watch a higher level.

It's all ideas. My intent wasn't to take anything away from Mississauga

boban
11-14-2009, 01:47 PM
Believe me, the more well supported Canadian Profressional soccer teams there are the happier I would be.

If Mississauga did get a team and supported it with those levels despite TFC 30 minutes away, it would be a great benefit in terms of the Voyaguer cup and Canadian soccer.

I just don't see teams being created with that locality when you consider how regional rights typically work for team franchises or fans preferring to support a lower league when they can watch a higher level.

It's all ideas. My intent wasn't to take anything away from Mississauga
Has no barring for teams in different leagues.

DigzTFC!
11-14-2009, 01:55 PM
The assumption is Hamilton would have a team in the same league as our proposed cities

My idea was to have the stadium in London.

Your idea was to have it in Mississauga.

TFC07
11-14-2009, 01:57 PM
Just a quick question (i know this is going way off-topic now): Does MLSE only have regional rights in City of Toronto or all GTA in general? I don't think they have regional rights rest of Ontario though.

I personally believe that Toronto/GTA can support a 2nd MLS team if you put a team in 905 region.

DigzTFC!
11-14-2009, 02:02 PM
I would think that TFC has the GTA as a region. I believe Ottawa could join without the consent from MLSE on the topic of regional rights, which would probably mean they don't have Ontario exclusivity. I think all MLS owners have a say in expansion though.

Bars92
11-14-2009, 03:58 PM
I think a USL team in Hamilton is a win win situation for everyone. Then you can build a great rivalry a la TFC and the Impact and the Argos-TiCats. It doesn't make any sense to build another ground in the GTA (Mississauaga).

Dirk Diggler
11-14-2009, 04:13 PM
Why? I highly doubt that anyone from Mississauga is gonna go down to Hamilton to watch USL matches. The population of Mississauga is big enough to sustain a USL franchise of its own.

boban
11-14-2009, 05:44 PM
I think a USL team in Hamilton is a win win situation for everyone. Then you can build a great rivalry a la TFC and the Impact and the Argos-TiCats. It doesn't make any sense to build another ground in the GTA (Mississauaga).
A city of 3/4 million doesn't have 1 stadium of 4,000-5,000 and you say it makes no sense?!! Hello??!!!
Besides latest news I got was that the city is looking into it.
I am just putting forth the idea Mississauga to go after the 10,000 seat stadium since Burlington doesn't want it.


Why? I highly doubt that anyone from Mississauga is gonna go down to Hamilton to watch USL matches. The population of Mississauga is big enough to sustain a USL franchise of its own.
No shit. And you have Brampton just up the road (from a USL perspective) that could come down to catch a game..

Macksam
11-14-2009, 10:06 PM
A city of 3/4 million doesn't have 1 stadium of 4,000-5,000 and you say it makes no sense?!! Hello??!!!
Besides latest news I got was that the city is looking into it.
I am just putting forth the idea Mississauga to go after the 10,000 seat stadium since Burlington doesn't want it.


No shit. And you have Brampton just up the road (from a USL perspective) that could come down to catch a game..
If the team was on the border around Derry, I would call the team my own. Also, aslong as they don't have Mississauga in the name and keep it neutral, I'm fine.