MLS Collective Bargaining Agreement

[MUFC_Niagara]

The collective bargaining is up, will a new deal be negotiated or will this situation delay or cancel the season.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/10/28/11549826-sun.html

Union issues threaten MLS

Toronto FC's fourth season might not start at all.
Major League Soccer's collective bargaining agreement is up in January and there are a host of issues to get through. Defender Nick Garcia, who is on a player union committee with teammate Marvell Wynne, says members have been told to put away some money for next year, just in case.
"We don't want a strike," Garcia said. "But we're the only league in the world where players are not on guaranteed contracts.
"We're not the NFLPA here."
Other player rights' issues and travel concerns also will be on the table. Garcia doesn't think a deal will be struck until close to the scheduled start of the season.
Surgery for Guevera
Amado Guevera, TFC's Honduran midfielder, will be undergoing arthroscopic knee surgery at the end of the year. He already will be missing from TFC's lineup next summer for World Cup duty.
One more time, Jim
Canadian defender Jim Brennan says he wants one more year with TFC. Brennan, who turns 33 next May, says he was "disappointed" at not making the playoffs a fourth consecutive year.
"I have unfinished business here," Brennan said.
Forward Pablo Vitti and defender Adrian Serioux are also free agents.

[billyfly]

More time for the grass to grow!

In all seriousness this is gonna be a big talking point. Good idea to start the thread.

[SoccMan]

This is the MLS not MLB or even the NHL if the season was ever to be canceled in the MLS it would be the death of the league, there would not be a way back. This league is not strong enough to be able to cancel a whole season. I hope the players know this if they want to have a place to play and be able to have the potential of not only making some decent coin if they play well but having a place to showcase their talent and be picked up to play in a bigger league in Europe and have the potential of making even more money.

[CoachGT]

The league may not be able to revive itself after a strike, but I don't believe anyone is in agreement with the situation from a couple of years ago, where players were paid under $20k to stay on a roster, albeit developmental.

For this league to move forward, it has to balance economics of the teams with fair compensation for the players. Better players = a more copetitive product. But not all of the teams can afford (or in some cases want to afford) higher salaries.

And then there is a question of what happens to existing contracts. If the salary cap goes up by 25%, does that mean that players under existing contracts get nothing until their contract renews? All tough things to deal with.

[Pachuco]

This is the MLS not MLB or even the NHL if the season was ever to be canceled in the MLS it would be the death of the league, there would not be a way back. This league is not strong enough to be able to cancel a whole season. I hope the players know this if they want to have a place to play and be able to have the potential of not only making some decent coin if they play well but having a place to showcase their talent and be picked up to play in a bigger league in Europe and have the potential of making even more money.

You hope the players knows this? How about saying I hope the fucking owners and league know that if they want to see this league succeed, then they need to start attracting better players. You want do that by paying them 33K.

It goes both ways, they better come to an agreement, or I agree, this league is in trouble.

[flatpicker]

It will be interesting to see what develops from all of this.

But one thing I am sure of... there will be no strike, or delay to the start of the season.

The players and league both know the dire consequences of interrupting league play.

An agreement will be reached.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

rumors of an MLS2 kinda suggests there might be another reserve team system up again... no?

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

The collective bargaining is up, will a new deal be negotiated or will this situation delay or cancel the season.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/10/28/11549826-sun.html

Union issues threaten MLS

Toronto FC's fourth season might not start at all.
Major League Soccer's collective bargaining agreement is up in January and there are a host of issues to get through. Defender Nick Garcia, who is on a player union committee with teammate Marvell Wynne, says members have been told to put away some money for next year, just in case.
"We don't want a strike," Garcia said. "But we're the only league in the world where players are not on guaranteed contracts.
"We're not the NFLPA here."
Other player rights' issues and travel concerns also will be on the table. Garcia doesn't think a deal will be struck until close to the scheduled start of the season.
Surgery for Guevera
Amado Guevera, TFC's Honduran midfielder, will be undergoing arthroscopic knee surgery at the end of the year. He already will be missing from TFC's lineup next summer for World Cup duty.
One more time, Jim
Canadian defender Jim Brennan says he wants one more year with TFC. Brennan, who turns 33 next May, says he was "disappointed" at not making the playoffs a fourth consecutive year.
"I have unfinished business here," Brennan said.
Forward Pablo Vitti and defender Adrian Serioux are also free agents.


Brennan must have meant missing the playoffs for the 3rd consecutive year not the 4th unless he sees problems next season!!

[gtaguy]

don't know how much money a player making less then 20k can save.... I hope both parties can iron out thier differences and not allow stoppage to happen for the 2010. It could cause serious serious consequences much like the baseball strike that ruined baseball in T.O.

[Canary Canuck]

Gotta love Garcia's incredibly naive comment about MLS being the only league in the world where contracts aren't guaranteed. That comment could only come from an MLS lifer. Contracts are "guaranteed" in a lot of countries. However, in a lot of leagues the word "guaranteed" is just a word on a piece of paper and doesn't mean squat. Ask any player that's played in south america or eastern europe and ask them if they've ever been short changed on pay, paid late, not paid when injured, or released with no compensation. Even in France in Ligue 1, players all get insurance because clubs don't pay players when they're injured and they don't pay them when they're released.

[DOMIN8R]

MLS player-side sources float strike threat

By TRIPP MICKLE & LIZ MULLEN
Staff writers

Published November 09, 2009

Major League Soccer players will strike next year if the league doesn’t improve on a collective-bargaining proposal it put forward last week that would increase player salaries but would reduce workers’ compensation benefits, player-side sources said.

Additionally, the league rejected the players’ proposals for guaranteed contracts and for the elimination of club options on players’ contracts, key issues for the MLS Players Union, sources said.

Officials for Major League Soccer and the union declined comment. But sources noted that last week’s session was the first counterproposal by the league, and that there was still time for more bargaining. The MLS collective-bargaining agreement expires Jan. 31.

The counterproposal put forward by the league last week offered to raise the salary cap and address some of the union’s quality-of-life issues by increasing travel per diems and improving hotel accommodations, but the sides remain far apart on a host of issues, including the salary cap, workers’ compensation, guaranteed contracts, option-clauses in contracts and FIFA regulations.

One player-side source acknowledged that the league had offered to increase the salary cap and players’ salaries but called the proposed increases “a joke.”

The back-and-forth in MLS is leading up to the Jan. 31 CBA expiration.

Another player-side source said that although the union doesn’t have a big war chest or history of winning labor battles, the players may strike because they have nothing to lose.

“In most cases, the players would have no problem in replacing the money they are getting from their MLS contracts with a job they can find in a matter of days,” this source said. “Take your favorite job that pays $30,000 [a year].”

The big sticking point between the sides involves the regulations of soccer’s international governing body, FIFA. According to FIFA regulations, a contract between a club and player may be terminated only upon the expiration of the contract or by mutual agreement.

MLS now signs multiyear contracts that include options after each individual year, so a player might have a four-year contract with the league but that contract is up for review at the end of each season and the league is not obligated to pick up the option for any remaining years, sources say. Players believe that those option-based contracts violate FIFA regulations.

“You get two weeks’ notice and they can turn you out on the street at any time,” a player-side source said.

The salary cap has risen from $1.8 million in 2005 to $2.35 million, or 30 percent, in the last five years, but player-side sources say the league’s proposal would slow that rate of salary cap increases to the single digits in the future.

At the same time, sources said that MLS is looking to roll back workers’ compensation rights. One source said the league is looking to get back money it pays to players for soccer-related injuries if that player receives a workers’ compensation award for the injury.

The league and union are expected to continue to negotiate informally in the coming weeks, but no further proposals are expected before MLS Cup in Seattle on Nov. 22.

[Hitcho]

A strike would kill MLS. I don;t think some franchises would survive it, and everyone would take a hit on attendances ater the strike was over. Plus it would leave bad blood among the precious few dedicated supporters the league has.

Let's hope this is all bravado on both sides and something reasonable is reached soon.

[Canary Canuck]

I want to see a higher cap and more performance incentives for the Concacaf Champions League. With respect to guaranteed contracts, the last thing this league needs is an NBA culture of lazyness where guys don't have to work hard everyday. Guys like Nick Garcia don't deserve guaranteed money. Perform or get the hell out.

[Yohan]

It is pretty harsh to drop a player with 2 weeks notice. Family suffers. esp with shitty wages

[ag futbol]

^ Not only that, but outside of the personal considerations these players have to go through ... think about the affect that has on trying to attract talent. Secure contracts are a way for this league to have access to better players without paying much additional cash. It's just going to be dirt in a fe GM's faces when they make some bad signings.

They league is flat out stupid to fight things such as these. Bob Kraft and the Hunt family at work ...

[Pookie]

New team(s), new stadiums... there is very little potential IMO for a strike.

Unions have to have that strike threat card but they would be foolish to play it. If ever there was a league that could start a season with replacement workers, it would be the MLS.

The league too has momentum on its side with expansion and new stadiums. This is an almost exclusively gate driven league, they know that they couldn't survive a strike.

Both sides need each other and like any negotiation there are starting points and then they'll arrive at a solution.

[rocker]

and there will be lots of bluster and bullshit right to the end and then they'll sign a deal. people don't realize most of the time all that talk is part of the "ritual" of union-employer negotiations. union talks about the contract offer being a "joke" and how they have to "fight" the employer. The employer denounces the first offer from the union as outrageous etc etc.

My union recently was talking up a strike, organizing picketing etc... right up to the strike deadline. The company was holding firm, making zero concessions. Then at 2:00am on the last day, they came to an agreement with pretty nice terms, in my opinion.

[TorCanSoc]

I want to see a higher cap and more performance incentives for the Concacaf Champions League. With respect to guaranteed contracts, the last thing this league needs is an NBA culture of lazyness where guys don't have to work hard everyday. Guys like Nick Garcia don't deserve guaranteed money. Perform or get the hell out.

How do we implement a higher cap, without simply raising salaries for the existing players? So the cap is 2.3 million. It jumps to 4 million (which is still triple the last few cap raises) how do we ensure we get better players. Not just pay the marginal ones more money?

Yes its slave wages $40K for a fulltime player, giving said player a raise for the same services would defeat the purpose a cap raise to attract better players elsewhere no?

[rocker]

How do we implement a higher cap, without simply raising salaries for the existing players? So the cap is 2.3 million. It jumps to 4 million (which is still triple the last few cap raises) how do we ensure we get better players. Not just pay the marginal ones more money?

Yes its slave wages $40K for a fulltime player, giving said player a raise for the same services would defeat the purpose a cap raise to attract better players elsewhere no?

i think if you raised the cap in one shot, most current players would already be under contract and would see no benefit at least for a few years.... and most of that extra $$$$ would immediately go to bringing in foreign players. Of course some out of contract players might benefit too but not most.

I think some of the current players better be careful of what they wish for. Cuz with a sudden increase in the cap, some of them might be out of a job. So yeah, there are guys who deserve more, but there are probably also guys who are pretty lucky they are pulling in 70-100K. Many players are sheltered, to a degree, from foreigners competing for their jobs due to a tight cap.

[TFC247]

^ Not only that, but outside of the personal considerations these players have to go through ... think about the affect that has on trying to attract talent. Secure contracts are a way for this league to have access to better players without paying much additional cash. It's just going to be dirt in a fe GM's faces when they make some bad signings.

They league is flat out stupid to fight things such as these. Bob Kraft and the Hunt family at work ...Don't be ridiculous. Players won't get guaranteed contract period. Even NFL players don't get those. If anything, MLS will rather hand out ridiculous signing bonus and go belly up than to lose that power.

And players know this too. It's all posturing, just part of negotiation. You bargain for the moon and then you settle.

[Roogsy]

I really like the idea of signing bonuses.

[Hitcho]

^ me too, but they should be paid by the club. try to address some of this ridiculous parity that's everywhere you turn.

if you have sell out crowds every week and can afford to pay bigger signing on fees, then good luck to you. might actually have a league rule that worls in our favour for once! :D

[Canary Canuck]

How do we implement a higher cap, without simply raising salaries for the existing players? So the cap is 2.3 million. It jumps to 4 million (which is still triple the last few cap raises) how do we ensure we get better players. Not just pay the marginal ones more money?

Yes its slave wages $40K for a fulltime player, giving said player a raise for the same services would defeat the purpose a cap raise to attract better players elsewhere no?

I agree with rocker's response

[Pookie]

i think if you raised the cap in one shot, most current players would already be under contract and would see no benefit at least for a few years.... and most of that extra $$$$ would immediately go to bringing in foreign players. Of course some out of contract players might benefit too but not most.

I think some of the current players better be careful of what they wish for. Cuz with a sudden increase in the cap, some of them might be out of a job. So yeah, there are guys who deserve more, but there are probably also guys who are pretty lucky they are pulling in 70-100K. Many players are sheltered, to a degree, from foreigners competing for their jobs due to a tight cap.

There is a scenario where some players could immediately benefit... by raising the minimum salary.

Many people assume that a rise in cap is necessary to attract talent. IMO, a developmental league should be encouraging young players to make a career choice to stay with the sport. Raise the cap all you want but earmark the bulk of those funds towards reducing the disparity that exists between players on rosters.

If you are Nana Attakora and you have a choice between a $34k a year non-guaranteed soccer contract or a full time job with benefits and a starting salary in the $40k range... which do you choose?

Thankfully for us, Nana chose soccer. But how many NCAA players would opt for the "real job" vs a risky career in MLS?

[ag futbol]

Don't be ridiculous. Players won't get guaranteed contract period. Even NFL players don't get those. If anything, MLS will rather hand out ridiculous signing bonus and go belly up than to lose that power.

And players know this too. It's all posturing, just part of negotiation. You bargain for the moon and then you settle.
This isn't the NFL, this is soccer. And the NFL is considered extreme compared to other leagues having COMPLETELY crushed their union in CBA negotiations a while back. NONE of the other major leagues in North America allow you to terminate an average players deal mid contact.

Fact: MLS has to globally compete for talent. Globally, players are given gauranteed deals of various lengths. If MLS wants to grab more players it has to compete on a basis of earning security and not just blanket numbers on contracts that could be rendered worthless.

The problem with these arguements is that people compare the benefits players get and compare them to their personal situations, which is completely irrelevant.

[TFC247]

This isn't the NFL, this is soccer. And the NFL is considered extreme compared to other leagues having COMPLETELY crushed their union in CBA negotiations a while back. NONE of the other major leagues in North America allow you to terminate an average players deal mid contact.
I don't know about your claim that NFLPU got "completely" crushed. It certainly isn't as strong as MLB or NBA, but that doesn't mean it's automatically less than ideal. If that's the case, then players will be out for strike. Instead there's a talk of lockout by the owners because the previous contract favors strongly to players. And yes, I compared it to NFL, because even though it is soccer, it is still a NA league and it is largely considered as a model structure for professional league in NA. How would you compare one CBA to contracts in another country?


Fact: MLS has to globally compete for talent. Globally, players are given gauranteed deals of various lengths. If MLS wants to grab more players it has to compete on a basis of earning security and not just blanket numbers on contracts that could be rendered worthless.Do you actually know how contracts are exaclty setup in each and every league worldwide to make that kind of claim? In other words, just because one contract is guaranteed doesn't mean it actually is. I don't know the details of those contracts so I can't make your claim, but what I do know is, I don't ever recall this being an issue when signing international players. When did it stop MLS from signing Ljungberg, Blanco, or Angel? OTOH, the issue always was about paying fair market value, and the competition of the league.

[ag futbol]

I don't know about your claim that NFLPU got "completely" crushed. It certainly isn't as strong as MLB or NBA, but that doesn't mean it's automatically less than ideal. If that's the case, then players will be out for strike. Instead there's a talk of lockout by the owners because the previous contract favors strongly to players. And yes, I compared it to NFL, because even though it is soccer, it is still a NA league and it is largely considered as a model structure for professional league in NA. How would you compare one CBA to contracts in another country?
The NFLPU went on strike sometime back in 1980's and the owners completely ate their lunch. They brought in scabs, the union ran out of money, union lost public support, players crossed the picked line, and the whole thing ended in shambles. That's the environment that sets NFL-union negotiations still to this day. Which is why most consider the NFLPU a joke compared to the other leagues within north america. I think you would be hard pressed to find a guy who thinks that being cut after being injured (which happens frequently in the NFL) is ideal.


Do you actually know how contracts are exaclty setup in each and every league worldwide to make that kind of claim? In other words, just because one contract is guaranteed doesn't mean it actually is. I don't know the details of those contracts so I can't make your claim, but what I do know is, I don't ever recall this being an issue when signing international players. When did it stop MLS from signing Ljungberg, Blanco, or Angel? OTOH, the issue always was about paying fair market value, and the competition of the league.
Some contracts in MLS are already guaranteed. DP’s fall under that category and so do certain roster players (Barrett is guaranteed and if you believe rumours so is Garcia). But as a percentage of the total number of contracts (if you believe the players) the guaranteed number is low.

Of course I can’t know the contractual details of every league in the world but if you believe what the players are saying (bringing things in line with FIFA regulations) then the answer is clear. I don’t know if anyone else wants to jump in on this but to my knowledge it’s practically unheard of for for a player in a reputable football league to have his contract cancelled for any reason other than contractual breach or mutual consent.

When they were talking about attracting talent to this league… we aren’t talking about DP’s and the stars … we’re talking more along the lines of the average guy. The issue with MLS isn’t that the top end isn’t high enough, it’s that the low end is damn scrubby. These are the guys who you are going to see improving quality from if they can get slightly more money and guaranteed contracts. Whiie I can’t find any articles specifically at this time, I believe it’s come up on multiple occasions (at least once from Johnston) that the nature of certain MLS contracts make it tough to offer attractive deals to players with global options.

[Whoop]

Another player-side source said that although the union doesn’t have a big war chest or history of winning labor battles, the players may strike because they have nothing to lose.
LOL!!

Yeah, like the MLS can survive a strike.

[Cashcleaner]

There's no way MLS would be able to survive a full-out players strike or lockout situation. I mean, we've got so many clubs just barely hanging on right now (financially speaking), that the loss of revenue for a half season would probably be their death knell.

The thing is, the league has to know by now that the wide majority of its fans would be firmly behind the players if a labour dispute were to arise. I mean, we all know who's making what and can easily compare the minscule MLS salaries to those enjoyed by pro baseball, hockey, football, and basketball players.

[jloome]

I think people here are forgetting that MLS is a multi-entity partnership, not a bunch of single-entity companies.

Technically, if they went on strike, most of those companies would be better off. They'd lay everyone off, have possibly no overhead (depending on local stadium deal terms), have no payroll to cover and not lose the money they normally lose on a season.

Would people come back? Sure. They've come back to every other sport after every other strike.

THe players have some leeway, due to the fact that the salaries aren't any better than what they can get doing manual labour, so they have nothing really to lose. And the teams can't really attract scabs, as they could earn more in USL-level leagues etc.

So really, it's an impasse that could go well into the season and not really affect anyone, depending on how patient the existing audience is. It's MLS. You gotta be pretty hardcore to be watching enough to care in the first place.

[Boris]

I think people here are forgetting that MLS is a multi-entity partnership, not a bunch of single-entity companies.

Technically, if they went on strike, most of those companies would be better off. They'd lay everyone off, have possibly no overhead (depending on local stadium deal terms), have no payroll to cover and not lose the money they normally lose on a season.

Would people come back? Sure. They've come back to every other sport after every other strike.

THe players have some leeway, due to the fact that the salaries aren't any better than what they can get doing manual labour, so they have nothing really to lose. And the teams can't really attract scabs, as they could earn more in USL-level leagues etc.

So really, it's an impasse that could go well into the season and not really affect anyone, depending on how patient the existing audience is. It's MLS. You gotta be pretty hardcore to be watching enough to care in the first place.

MLS is not like every other sport. I cant speak for hockey as i really dont follow it as much but Baseball struggled for YEARS after the strike. Montreal eventually NEVER recovered and ended up leaving the league. The Jays never saw the crowds they once did. The thing is about that is that it was Baseball, a MUCH larger sport in the states. If there was a strike in the MLS I would be very willing to bet that MANY teams would not be able to overcome the downfall. Hell, I am sure that even here in Toronto we'd see a different product post strike.

A strike would destroy this league.

[ensco]

The players are screwed.

1) Most teams lose money.
2) What is the players' leverage? The public doesn't care (people on this board don't count, there's not enough of us).

MLS isn't like the NHL or MLB. It doesn't depend on the premise that the best players in the world play in their league. Think the league can't eventually find guys somewhere who will cross the picket line?

[TFC247]

that the nature of certain MLS contracts make it tough to offer attractive deals to players with global options.
Of course we all realize the shortcomings of MLS contracts in many different aspects, no shit. But it's your insistance in trying to tie in two different issues. Do MLS players want guaranteed contracts in CBA? Of course they do. And let's leave it at that. Like I've pointed out, and you've somewhat acknowledged, contracts can be however they want it to be. If a contract needs to be guaranteed then it will be. If it doesn't have to, then it won't. Let's not stretch the issue.

[DOMIN8R]

Story Highlights
World soccer's governing body says it will not interfere in MLS labor negotiations
MLS Players Union argues league's stance could jeopardize U.S.' World Cup bids
Current CBA expires in January; MLS and union are far in negotiating new deal
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/11/23/fifa.mls/index.html#ixzz0XnShQ3Sh (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/11/23/fifa.mls/index.html#ixzz0XnShQ3Sh)

This is relevant to: http://fifpro.org/index.php?mod=one&id=17327&PHPSESSID=ffd314c752bc34d75d4852920970c1b0

[Beach_Red]

The players are screwed.

1) Most teams lose money.
2) What is the players' leverage? The public doesn't care (people on this board don't count, there's not enough of us).

MLS isn't like the NHL or MLB. It doesn't depend on the premise that the best players in the world play in their league. Think the league can't eventually find guys somewhere who will cross the picket line?


And there's also the fact that for most owners the soccer team is afterthought. They can use it for write-offs an dthings like that, but if it disappeared they wouldn't be hurting.

[DOMIN8R]

The plot thickens.........

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=704098&cc=5901

[tfc2007]

they would be dumb to go into a lockout.
that would ruin this league.

[kodiakTFC]

If MLS had a lockout, it would lose any steam it has gained with the recent success of Toronto and Seattle.

[denime]

Players want big changes in MLS structure (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=704098&cc=5901)



FIFA staying out of MLS, union war (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/11/23/fifa.mls/index.html)


Collective Thoughts (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/soccerinsider/2007/02/collective_thoughts.html)

[denime]

Changes are needed,but not at any price.Hopefully there is no strike coming up.


If you find any articles regarding this matter post it here until the negotiation are finished,thanks.

Sticked ;)

[Mikey]

WOW!

Reading those miserable league salaries, it's no wonder MLS loses players to second and third level scandinavian leagues.

At $1100 a month I'm surprised the league is not totally comprised of 15 year olds playing between shifts at Burger King, and 50 yr old guys who wives just want them out of the house......

:picard:

Seems pretty clear that the salary cap is more about allowing owners to run a supposed major league sport on a low risk minor league budget than anything else.

[rocker]

Why should owners hand the players more money out of the goodness of their hearts? it's up to the players to fight for more than $1100 a month.
the current structures were *negotiated* by the players in a contract that started 5 years ago.

[Hitcho]

It's a tough one. On the one hand, I agree that players should be given guaranteed contracts and not subject to unemployment at a whim havign committed themselves to a team in what basically amounts to a ten year career and where one bad decision can really sink you. On the other hand, the players have a very weak position here in that ultimately MLS could go and out replace them without too much bother. And it's not like the rest of the world is licking its lips at the prospect of all these MLS plauyers becoming available for free. Some of the cherries would be picked, the rest would fade back into the USL or obscurity.

Sure, there is the prospect of the league folding if the players union is not on board, but that's a bit of a long shot card for the MSL players to be waving in the air, and it also leaves most of them without any form of income in the middle of the season for the rest of the world. The league folding would actually be worse for the players, much worse, than it would be for the league itself.

[Yeoman]

do you really have any idea how much it costs to live in LA county rocker?
you must not have a clue then.
players in several teams having to take a second job in order to pay for just costs of living?
good players quiting because there isn't enough money to be able to live?
they deserve it

[deltox]

all he is saying is that the players helped negotiate those salaries

[ManUtd4ever]

I agree that the players don't have the "star power" to hold any significant leverage in negotiations. If the minimum salaries and team salary cap are moderately increased, the players union should be satisfied with that...

[denime]

Merged

[Hitcho]

there is also a dichotomy here as fans: it's better for us to see the cap go up as it that means ultimately better calibre of football in the league and better individual players joining from overseas or staying in MLS instead fo moving abroad.

on the other hand, mls is going to have to pay for the higher salary cap somehow, and since i cannot see places like columbus suddenly finding an extra 10,000 fans a game, that means existing fans will likely face even higher prices to make up for the cap, unless MLS can get mroe out of sponsors and tv revenue i guess.

of course, we'll blame it all on MLSE rather than the league! :D:D:D

[Yohan]

I think most people will agree that raising cap is good, but should be done in financially responsible manner.

I also think that MLS is at the level where it should conpete with third tier Euro leagues for talent. No more losing players to Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland.

MLS expansion fee is supposedly 15 million bucks per team or something. More or less it is sure that the league will reach 20 teams. Why not use the expansion fee money to give moderate cap increase, plus increase from other revenues?

[pekduck]

I think most people will agree that raising cap is good, but should be done in financially responsible manner.

I also think that MLS is at the level where it should conpete with third tier Euro leagues for talent. No more losing players to Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland.

MLS expansion fee is supposedly 15 million bucks per team or something. More or less it is sure that the league will reach 20 teams. Why not use the expansion fee money to give moderate cap increase, plus increase from other revenues?

Seattle paid 30 mil

[denime]

I think most people will agree that raising cap is good, but should be done in financially responsible manner.

I also think that MLS is at the level where it should conpete with third tier Euro leagues for talent. No more losing players to Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland.

MLS expansion fee is supposedly 15 million bucks per team or something. More or less it is sure that the league will reach 20 teams. Why not use the expansion fee money to give moderate cap increase, plus increase from other revenues?

Try 35 mil Vancouver and Portland

[Hitcho]

i don;t know what MLS will use the expansion fees for, but I'd be surprised if they blow it all on increased wages over the course of a few a seasons. more likely they are going to want it for long term investment in the league.

my worry on the cap increase is this: to make ti worthwhile you have to raise it by at least $1m per team. Anything less than that is not going to have a material impact on the calibre of the league and the players here. That's $20m per season that the league is going to be looking to recoup. Easiest and cleanest way to get it? Raise ticket prices by a few per cent.

I want to see a cap increase, but I think we've seen enough ticket price hikes in TFC's short history to see out the rest of the club's first decade!

[Yohan]

It's really a catch 22 with MLS. In order to increase salary cap, it needs to have new revenue. But new revenue won't come until quality of the league increases and attract new fans, and that won't happen until the salary cap increases.

Gate revenue won't support the league. Rather, it will be TV revenue and corporate sponsorship. Just how MLS will get that big money deal is another question...

[ag futbol]

^ Bingo. Although, i'd think that better play could improve the gate a decent amount.

Last time the CBA was up for negotiation the league was near bankrupt .. things have changed quite a bit since then.

I'm thinking the players will take a decent chunk out of the owners in this round of negotiations as there seems to be some decent fragmentation between the ownership about what direction this league is headed. ie the vision LA, TFC, NY have is much different than FCD, NE, and Columbus.

I think a realistic offer for the players this time around is a moderate increase in the cap year-to-year along with increases in the number of players on gauranteed contracts. With that in place ... maybe we can start at least partially fighting off 4th rate Euro leagues for decent talent.

[Detroit_TFC]

I probably comes down to how much the league thinks improved player rosters (through better caliber players or deeper benches) will relate to higher gate revenue (as a whole, leaguewide). If they determine that gate would not improve much even with a higher salary cap, they'll probably fight a major increase. If they think it will put more butts in seats, then it could go up.

[TFC247]

I think a realistic offer for the players this time around is a moderate increase in the cap year-to-year along with increases in the number of players on gauranteed contracts. With that in place ... maybe we can start at least partially fighting off 4th rate Euro leagues for decent talent.Really? That sounds more like your interest than anything else. You have to understand that this battle is between players and owners, and they're only looking out for themselves. This has nothing to do with what fans want. There was an interview with RSL players' rep recently, he flat out said this fight isn't about money, it's about certain rights, such as guaranteed contracts and free agency etc. Salary cap increase and bringing in attractive players is not what this CBA is about.

Now, for guaranteed contract, you're still fixated on wrong reason. Please point to me where in current CBA does it say you can't give players guaranteed contract. The reason union wants it written on CBA is because it gives them power. Not because they want to fight off some european leagues. We will continue to gain/lose players regardless whether it's written in CBA or not.

[Steve]

I think most people will agree that raising cap is good, but should be done in financially responsible manner.

I also think that MLS is at the level where it should conpete with third tier Euro leagues for talent. No more losing players to Denmark or Sweden or Switzerland.

MLS expansion fee is supposedly 15 million bucks per team or something. More or less it is sure that the league will reach 20 teams. Why not use the expansion fee money to give moderate cap increase, plus increase from other revenues?

Because that, my friend, would be called a Ponzi scheme. You see, when you increase yearly costs based on one time investments, it means you, as a league, are dependent on continued one time investments. It also means the one time investments (expansion fees) will need to continue to go up each year to continue to pay for your yearly costs (as more teams means less pie for everyone). The end of a life of a league based on financial principles like this is inevitable: Expansion, expansion, expansion, catastrophic contraction. The minute you run out of new investors (or "suckers") you are left with costs far exceeding your revenue, and you collapse under the weight of your own financial mismanagment.

So, that's why using expansion fees to bump up the salary cap is a terrible idea. As to the larger issue, both sides will need to play this carefully. As fans, everything the players actually want we probably don't. More guarenteed contracts will ensure we're stuck with worse players for longer (as long as there isn't a buy out outside the cap clause, but that will just mean the cost is recouperated from us in some way). A higher minimal salary will mean less money overall to spend on better players (will this be offset by better players staying in the league for longer? who knows). The only thing we should want is a higher cap, and I'm not sure how much the players' union is pushing for that, because its members are likely aware that a higher cap could lead to many of them being out of a job.

Right now, I think a strike is a bluff more than anything. Most of the players that make up the union are the kinds of utility players that are making 50-100k, won't be able to play in other leagues, and won't be able to get jobs making that much in this economy. They know that a strike hurts them at least as much as the owners (in fact, some owners lose money on their team, but make money on developments/venue/etc associated with the team. Others just plain lose money paying for facilities. A strike really wouldn't take away a huge revenue stream from most owners).

[Fort York Redcoat]

^He did say moderate increase. We need some excuse.

Ponzi. funny name.

[Steve]

Really? That sounds more like your interest than anything else. You have to understand that this battle is between players and owners, and they're only looking out for themselves. This has nothing to do with what fans want. There was an interview with RSL players' rep recently, he flat out said this fight isn't about money, it's about certain rights, such as guaranteed contracts and free agency etc. Salary cap increase and bringing in attractive players is not what this CBA is about.

Now, for guaranteed contract, you're still fixated on wrong reason. Please point to me where in current CBA does it say you can't give players guaranteed contract. The reason union wants it written on CBA is because it gives them power. Not because they want to fight off some european leagues. We will continue to gain/lose players regardless whether it's written in CBA or not.

Exactly. The players union is not fighting for US, they're fighting for themselves. In fact, if anything, the owners would be the ones more likely on our side because we pay them money, so they want more of us to pay them money (or us to pay more). That means they should want things that make us happy. That said, people seem to be used to siding with the "labour" over the "big bad capitalist pig-dogs".



^He did say moderate increase. We need some excuse.

Ponzi. funny name.


Yes, but even a moderate increase in a yearly expense based on a one time investment is a bad idea. Increases in the cap have to be linked to continuing revenue and revenue projections, not on lump sum investments (the exception being transfer fees, but only if you have enough data to support the suggestion that your league has a stable transfer based model where you can count on revenues continuing at a certain level for the foreseeable future). Expansion fees need to be invested in one time costs. Advertising, payment of debt (if the league still
holds any), infrastructure, or, if all else fails, external investment. If you have enough invested to earn interest every year, you can start putting that towards yearly expenses.

[Yohan]

Yes, but even a moderate increase in a yearly expense based on a one time investment is a bad idea. Increases in the cap have to be linked to continuing revenue and revenue projections, not on lump sum investments (the exception being transfer fees, but only if you have enough data to support the suggestion that your league has a stable transfer based model where you can count on revenues continuing at a certain level for the foreseeable future). Expansion fees need to be invested in one time costs. Advertising, payment of debt (if the league still
holds any), infrastructure, or, if all else fails, external investment. If you have enough invested to earn interest every year, you can start putting that towards yearly expenses.
you know what? I agree with your reasoning, except I can't really see how else the league can raise enough money to pay for increase in cap.

without some sort of investment in the league to raise the quality of players, the league isn't going to be able to attract outside sources. even if the cap is raised 500,000 bucks per year, and some of the expansion money is banked away to pay for this cap increase for few years, am I proposing too much risk that in 3 or 4 years, the league isn't going to find a new revenue stream, most likely via sponsorship and/or tv deal to raise that 10mil per year cash?

[profit89]

Yes, but even a moderate increase in a yearly expense based on a one time investment is a bad idea. Increases in the cap have to be linked to continuing revenue and revenue projections, not on lump sum investments (the exception being transfer fees, but only if you have enough data to support the suggestion that your league has a stable transfer based model where you can count on revenues continuing at a certain level for the foreseeable future). Expansion fees need to be invested in one time costs. Advertising, payment of debt (if the league still
holds any), infrastructure, or, if all else fails, external investment. If you have enough invested to earn interest every year, you can start putting that towards yearly expenses.

Chicken and egg argument my friend.

If you wait for revenue first, that day will never come. Only way to attract revenue is to increase quality; and only way to increase quality is to spend.

[TFC247]

If you wait for revenue first, that day will never come. Only way to attract revenue is to increase quality; and only way to increase quality is to spend.But the argument here wasn't about whether to spend or not spend. It was about if increasing the salary cap yearly is justified because of the expansion fee. Which obviously is not true since expansion fee doesn't flow in year after year. There's certainly more than one way to invest, there's no disagreeing there. So the issue was more about where that additional money is coming from if you do spend. Is it from the next TV contract, is it from the higher ticket charge/sales, or from owners pocket etc, that's all.

[canadian_bhoy]

This is a non issue IMO. No chance the owners will let the players go on strike - no way the players will walk. The league would be toast and both sides know it.

See you guys in march!

[DOMIN8R]

Take a good, hard look at what could happen with Major League Soccer players in February because what the MLS owners, which include the New England Patriots’ Kraft family, the Kansas City Chiefs Hunt family, Seattle Seahawks owner Paul Allen, could lockout their players around February 1.

http://www.examiner.com/x-3926-Business-of-Sports-Examiner~y2009m12d26-Major-League-Soccers-actions-may-provide-a-clue-to-the-likelihood-of-a-2011-NFL-lockout

[RicoSuave44]

^^ very good article.

[james]

This is a non issue IMO. No chance the owners will let the players go on strike - no way the players will walk. The league would be toast and both sides know it.

See you guys in march!

ya they know they cant go on strike, MLS would fold if that happened, teams would probably just decide to join the new NASL.