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View Full Version : TorontoFC.ca article --- new thread, less BS



Parkdale
10-29-2009, 02:48 PM
http://www.mlsnet.com//news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20091028&content_id=7566214&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280

link to the article (http://www.mlsnet.com//news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20091028&content_id=7566214&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280)

------

have your say, but please keep it on topic.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 02:51 PM
The Kick About: Dude, Where's My Bandwagon?

10/28/2009 2:39 PM
By Asif Hossain / TorontoFC.ca



My younger brother isn't very good at sports. Another year is nearly complete but the trophy case our mother had so optimistically built for him sits bare.

I flatly let him know after his most recent disappointing season that he no longer has my support. When we travel to watch him participate in whatever sport, I will be cheering for other children. The other kids are winners, and thus worthy of my investment. My own brother, not so much. I couldn't care less what kind of psychological issues this creates for him in his early teen years. He sucks.



Most of the above situation is fictional. I do have a brother who is not brilliant at team sports. But he is on a second degree black belt in karate so one day I will pay severely for this start. However, for me the aforementioned scenario is no different than threatening a sports team by withholding support, be it emotional or financial. This is where supporters and bandwagoners differentiate themselves.





anyway, go read the article, and voice your thoughts here ---- please note: keep the personal attacks to yourself.

--

king dave
10-29-2009, 02:51 PM
I want to go to Charleston NOW!
KD.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 02:52 PM
I want to go to Charleston NOW!
KD.

I agree! We can go before it even gets cool.

Now if they'd just change their team to Red.... or is that bangwagon jumping?

king dave
10-29-2009, 02:53 PM
I agree! We can go before it even gets cool.

Now if they'd just change their team to Red.... or is that bangwagon jumping?
Oh, I see where we're going now:D.
KD.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 02:53 PM
and because this was such a good intro...



I think there is a problem with the distinction of supporter no mater what... I think mostly its because people don;t realize what defines a supporter...

Now for some reason a lot of people think athat NOT being happy about your team... and what is happening around them and how they are managed... means that you aer somehow disrespecting, and not being supporter.. And somehow you;ll just because of the BAD result that you will just STOP following the team all of a sudden and not care how they DO... I think for most of the people if not ALL who come to this board and are associated with TFC supporter or season ticket holder is not the case. Just because you are not happy where this team is going... we are not going to shut off our computers and just ignore all information about TFC until... they start winning... NO. All of us we will still check the website in the off season, mls rumours, and the redpatch boys few times a day going to watch those insignificant friendlies that we often loose in the offseason to hear news about this team... and care about who other trialist who's name we can barely pronounce, lets not even talk about recognizing it. That is being a SUPPORTER...
Although you know that the team is rotten and in bad situation you still care and what to know what is happening to them... THAT does not mean that all of sudden that the team is in a bad shape we'll start following MOntreal Impacts or Vancouver or whatever...
HENCE UNHAPPYNESS DOESN't EQUAL TREASON....
And for some reason that is what i feel its implyied.. too often by a lot of people on this board and specially by this article...
And that for some reason DO BE a SUPPORTER... IMPLIES FAKING HAPPINESS and just deny or ignore the bad things. Although pessims for no reason is never good ( I consider myself the most optimistic person you could find)... Yet Sometimes you have to be objective and at a point and and if you have to point out rthe bad things as what they are ...and being positive in that situation... becomes just fooling yourself. And doesn;t really help.


THAT said let me clarifysomething, and correct me if i am wrong.. But i believe i speak for many supporters when i say this.
UNHAPPINESS/CRITISISM DOESN:T MEAN YOU ARE NOT A SUPPORTER.
BY THE SAME TOKEN
HAPPYNESS/OPTIMISM DOESN:T MEAN YOU ARE MORE OF A SUPPORTER "BECAUSE YOU SUPPORT THE TEAM THROUGH THICK AND THIN."

ALSO I think both of the fans who are "anti MO" and those who are willing to give him more time or "for MO" (since there has been a clear division) ARE SUPPORTING THE team THROUGH THICK and thin... And being on this board and caring about what happens prooves that point.

Now both the optimistic and pessimistic views at things can hurt and hinder the progress depending on the situation you are. We just have too look at the past and the record and make an objective decision. From what it seems that many supporters lost confidence in MO/club management... but THAT doesn;t mean they stopped being supporter and even less so doesn;t mean that they are "bandwagonners" for calling things as they are...

Wagner
10-29-2009, 02:53 PM
The Kick about: Dude, Where's My Bandwagon?

10/28/2009 2:39 PM
By Asif Hossain / TorontoFC.ca




anyway, go read the article, and voice your thoughts here ---- please note: keep the personal attacks to yourself.

--

Says you Parkdale.

You aren't my dad.

:willy_nilly:

billyfly
10-29-2009, 02:55 PM
HEY!

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 02:55 PM
You aren't my dad.



or am I?

:hump:

Rudi
10-29-2009, 02:56 PM
I love how Parky picks and chooses the post from the old thread that he agrees with the most and re-posts it in here. :D




(Just busting your balls dude.)

Nodoubtguy
10-29-2009, 02:56 PM
or am I?

:hump:

That's a personal insult if I ever saw one!!!

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 02:58 PM
I love how Parky picks and chooses the post from the old thread that he agrees with the most and re-posts it in here. :D




(Just busting your balls dude.)


actually, I took the First post, because someone took the time to write it up.
Hopefully the discussion can continue without getting into user names,
and tattoos, and all the rest of the BS.

(and yes, I know it's just you bustin' my balls)

billyfly
10-29-2009, 02:58 PM
Dang you Parkdale!

http://professorisland.com/wp-content/photopainting_day84.png

king dave
10-29-2009, 02:59 PM
Getting back to the article.
Asif was a stand-up ticket rep.
Helped me out several times in the past 3 years and I have shared a pint with him.
The article is harmless and not worth getting to wound up about at this time.
I think the FO, as someone pointed out earlier, is on 'clean-up' duty and this is just part of that.
Believe you me, they know we are all pissed.
It's the, "But honey, you know I love you and it was a mistake" stage right now.
KD.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 03:02 PM
The article is harmless and not worth getting to wound up about at this time.
I think the FO, as someone pointed out earlier, is on 'clean-up' duty and this is just part of that.


wait... King Dave is not getting worked up over something? ;)

If they are on damage control, this might not have been the best way to do it.
The point of the article is correct -- supporters don't switch colours when times get tough,
but the way that point was presented was very, very screwed up.

king dave
10-29-2009, 03:03 PM
First duty as Prez?
Have moderator elections every month:drinking:!
KD.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 03:06 PM
First duty as Prez?
:drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking::drinking: :drinking::drinking::drinking:
KD.

how is that different from now?

phonzo
10-29-2009, 03:07 PM
so i just read it..prizby is famous on the internets!

king dave
10-29-2009, 03:08 PM
wait... King Dave is not getting worked up over something? ;)

If they are on damage control, this might not have been the best way to do it.
The point of the article is correct -- supporters don't switch colours when times get tough,
but the way that point was presented was very, very screwed up.
Hey! It's Asifs' first writing gig man.
You think the FO had a hand in it?
Very possibly.
But all we can do right now is focus on Charleston, I mean, next year, I mean Charleston, I mean next season.
And that is what we will do.
As prez, I get the top bunk:D.
KD.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 03:09 PM
Hey! It's Asifs' first writing gig man.
KD.

no, he's been writing those for ages (and a ton of other TFC / GOL TV content). Guy's a very good writer, but I think this one falls into the 'too soon' category.

also, it should have come from a supporter, not from an 'official' source.

trane
10-29-2009, 03:14 PM
^ That is the point, I do not realy think he gets it. However, if he was just a supporter not an MLSE employe, then it would not have been a big deal. It is a bit insulting from an MLSE man.

wzhxvy
10-29-2009, 03:16 PM
I am not going to be hard on the guy because he was my account rep and I had no issues with him. He is new to his job, wants to impress, and is drinking the coolaid a little bit. Just wrong time to come out with that article.

Kevvv
10-29-2009, 03:17 PM
(Just busting your balls dude.)


You'd have to find them first.




Getting back to the article.
Asif was a stand-up ticket rep.
Helped me out several times in the past 3 years and I have shared a pint with him.
The article is harmless and not worth getting to wound up about at this time.
I think the FO, as someone pointed out earlier, is on 'clean-up' duty and this is just part of that.
Believe you me, they know we are all pissed.
It's the, "But honey, you know I love you and it was a mistake" stage right now.
KD.

President Gas is right, as usual.

TFC Tifoso
10-29-2009, 03:17 PM
I think it shouldn't have came from anybody at all.....supporter or TFC staff...

look, we all know what happened on the weekend......staff should've just shut up about it, and work of fixing the damn problem...no need for a stupid lecture on what makes a good little soldier.....

mmmikey
10-29-2009, 03:18 PM
the writer really needed to start that article on a different note. it set a really bad tone. partly because no one will take pity on the plight of supporting a top 4 EPL club, especially one who has won a CL trophy with a rich history featuring many successes. compared to the 3 years of ugly football from tfc.. he is comparing kobe beef to taco bell meat from a hose.

his actual point is much softer. which is, you are not a true supporter if your willing to boycott the team altogether (especially if it means you still like to watch MLS). nothing wrong with that point from where i see it.

i can see kozak's point tho with some of the posts on this board. if ppl consider canceling their season ticket because of the on field performance, i can't blame them. money doesn't grow on trees to some, and they feel like that's their own way to voice their displeasure. abandoning concessions, putting up a protest.. in all ways you are protesting the acts of the club, and in doing so show that you CARE enough to do so. to me your are still a supporter of the club. if it means you watch the games at home, or wait the two hours to grab a bite to eat or have another drink, that should not diminish your standing as a supporter of this club in any way.

king dave
10-29-2009, 03:18 PM
no, he's been writing those for ages (and a ton of other TFC / GOL TV content). Guy's a very good writer, but I think this one falls into the 'too soon' category.

also, it should have come from a supporter, not from an 'official' source.
Like I said, the contractor just broke a piece of your brand new, $3,000 Italian marble counter-top with his pipe wrench trying to install a faucet.
Still waiting for,
"I'm sorry 'bout that."
Or, "I'll fix it. Don't worry KD. You'll never know it was broke!"
KD.

Boris
10-29-2009, 03:19 PM
I think it shouldn't have came from anybody at all.....supporter or TFC staff...

look, we all know what happened on the weekend......staff should've just shut up about it, and work of fixing the damn problem...no need for a stupid lecture on what makes a good little soldier.....


exactly.
We all know that this is the most taboo subject among supporters. We try very hard to bring it up so the fact it was brought up by a staffer makes it very hard to digest. Not to mention that they are trying to 'stay in touch' with us right now.

Overall, this subject should not have been touched.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 03:20 PM
.....staff should've just shut up about it, and work of fixing the damn problem...
no need for a stupid lecture on what makes a good little soldier.....

especially when the chances of a TFC supporter defecting to another club for the sake of 'glory hunting' is 0.001%

Super
10-29-2009, 03:22 PM
TFC to Assif: Write us up an article that will reign in the supporters. Make them our bitches. Tell them, no, instruct them what it means to be a more loyal customer, eh, supporter.

Me to TFC: We already know how to support a club. We deserve better. The players deserve better. Clean house - PROPERLY this time, and that doesn't mean to just get rid of half the players. Management has to go! Do that and you will win A LOT of respect - not just from me, and I suspect most supporters, but also from most players. Then you can bring in new management and start fresh without getting rid of half the squad - again.

king dave
10-29-2009, 03:23 PM
Kevvv has comebacks for any occasion.
How 'bout Mr. Glitter smarmypants?:D
KD.

shwade
10-29-2009, 03:25 PM
What was the point of his analogy about the Liverpool-Sunderland match?
That he's an ideal supporter because he stuck with the team when the ref fucked up?

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 03:26 PM
We deserve better.

mmm... butter

king dave
10-29-2009, 03:26 PM
TFC to Assif: Write us up an article that will reign in the supporters. Make them our bitches. Tell them, no, instruct them what it means to be a more loyal customer, eh, supporter.

Me to TFC: We already know how to support a club. We deserve better. The players deserve better. Clean house - PROPERLY this time, and that doesn't mean to just get rid of half the players. Management has to go!
I think I love you!
You wanna be my campaign manager?
DOMIN8R wanted way too much $$$, as if:rolleyes:!
KD.

TFC Tifoso
10-29-2009, 03:27 PM
TFC to Assif: Write us up an article that will reign in the supporters. Make them our bitches. Tell them, no, instruct them what it means to be a more loyal customer, eh, supporter.

Me to TFC: We already know how to support a club. We deserve better. The players deserve better. Clean house - PROPERLY this time, and that doesn't mean to just get rid of half the players. Management has to go! Do that and you will win A LOT of respect - not just from me, and I suspect most supporters, but also from most players. Then you can bring in new management and start fresh without getting rid of half the squad - again.

this...............

Heathen
10-29-2009, 03:31 PM
It was an ill advised and timed article, the Liverpool tough times references would straight away antagonize those of us who support truly unsuccessful teams.

king dave
10-29-2009, 03:33 PM
so i just read it..prizby is famous on the internets!
And his avatar is famous too!
KD.

phonzo
10-29-2009, 03:34 PM
his avatar for president

Boris
10-29-2009, 03:34 PM
It was an ill advised and timed article, the Liverpool tough times references would straight away antagonize those of us who support truly unsuccessful teams.

exactly.
There were many taboo topics talked about

Auzzy
10-29-2009, 03:34 PM
So this is now the 4th thread on this board which talks about the same article... :) Briefly, I think:

- Wrong guy to write it (employee)
- Wrong website
- Wrong week (especially coming from the club)

I would like TFC to focus on making sure all their players, coaches, and the directory/manager support the team and each other 100% (including 90+ minutes of each game). I would prefer they leave the public discussion about supporters/fans/bandwagon jumpers to the supporters sites etc.

I've liked the other stuff I've read from Asif. They mostly seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with this article. I wouldn't even be getting worked up about the whole thing, if I didn't care a great deal about the team. But still, I'm looking forward to the next season & pre-season, and for any news we may hear about the team in the meantime.

The Professor
10-29-2009, 03:35 PM
less BS, huh? :rolleyes:

....maybe by page 3

Darlofletch
10-29-2009, 03:41 PM
It was an ill advised and timed article, the Liverpool tough times references would straight away antagonize those of us who support truly unsuccessful teams.

It certainly did, as well as making it abundantly clear that for him Liverpool comes before Toronto, which made the rest of his points a bit much to take.

Shakes McQueen
10-29-2009, 03:45 PM
It was an ill-timed Op-Ed, considering that the disappointment and anger of the supporters is still relatively fresh - challenging anyone's loyalties, even in a vague way, is poor judgment right now. Especially when you're a paid staffer for the actual team - playing the loyal fan card at a time like this is dumb.

That said, I'm actually with King Dave. I didn't read anything that worked me up. At any other point this season, it would have been a pretty harmless dose of typical sports pablum about being a "real" fan.

I think some people might just be looking for reasons to get mad at the team, at this point. I'd sooner focus my energies on trying to effect change the club needs, rather than getting mad at some low-level schlub that writes a blog.

- Scott

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Thank god someone else FROM OUT SIDE OF THIS BOARD is saying the same thing I have been on about since we lost. It just makes you wonder how the little tantrums on here after loses are seen by others. Called out, by someone from the club....how embarrassing for this group.

ua-kozak_TFC
10-29-2009, 03:49 PM
lol.... one thing i realized just now... is that I love how he mentioned that his SUBSCRIPTION to liverpool's website... was the LAST thing he would get rid of...
why do i have the feeling that somehow he is trying to make a point... at those who are "REAL SUPORTERS" keep paying even if the TEAM SUCKS...
hmmm makes you think doesn;t it?

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 03:50 PM
Called out, by someone from the club....how embarrassing for this group.

not so much for the group (of RPB members).

there are lots of stupid things that are said on this site (and others, on every topic imaginable) but they aren't always reflective of the people who actually do things in real life and support their team away from the interents.

Super
10-29-2009, 03:50 PM
I think I love you!
You wanna be my campaign manager?
DOMIN8R wanted way too much $$$, as if:rolleyes:!
KD.

I think we can put together a winning campaign!

Shakes McQueen
10-29-2009, 03:51 PM
lol.... one thing i realized just now... is that I love how he mentioned that his SUBSCRIPTION to liverpool's website... was the LAST thing he would get rid of...
why do i have the feeling that somehow he is trying to make a point... at those who are "REAL SUPORTERS" keep paying even if the TEAM SUCKS...
hmmm makes you think doesn;t it?

I think you're likely reading too much into it.

- Scott

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 03:51 PM
lol.... one thing i realized just now... is that I love how he mentioned that his SUBSCRIPTION to liverpool's website... was the LAST thing he would get rid of...
why do i have the feeling that somehow he is trying to make a point... at those who are "REAL SUPORTERS" keep paying even if the TEAM SUCKS...
hmmm makes you think doesn;t it?

I found it funny that he compared how shit TFC is to Liverpool...lol. Now that's funny!

Whoop
10-29-2009, 03:54 PM
My sentiments toward the article still stand.

Rule #1 in sports ownership in regards to fan relations.
- Don't criticize your fans in public, be it the hardcore supporters or the "bandwagoners".

Rule #2 in sports ownership in regards to fan relations.
- See Rule #1.

Auzzy
10-29-2009, 03:56 PM
Asif didn't "call out" anyone from this board. He praised prizby, but derided a comment made by someone on Toronto FC's own website.

Regarding tantrums, I'm actually much more worried about the tantrums that may have happened on occasion in the TFC locker room; upstairs between coaches & the boss; and even on the field...

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 03:57 PM
lol.... one thing i realized just now... is that I love how he mentioned that his SUBSCRIPTION to liverpool's website... was the LAST thing he would get rid of...
why do i have the feeling that somehow he is trying to make a point... at those who are "REAL SUPORTERS" keep paying even if the TEAM SUCKS...
hmmm makes you think doesn;t it?

I think it just means he is a loyal and his support doesn't waver even when his team hasn't won a league title for 20 years.

wzhxvy
10-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Thank god someone else FROM OUT SIDE OF THIS BOARD is saying the same thing I have been on about since we lost. It just makes you wonder how the little tantrums on here after loses are seen by others. Called out, by someone from the club....how embarrassing for this group.

You call this embarassing ??? being called out by a former ticket rep recently promoted ? Did you watch the press conference big boy ?

London
10-29-2009, 03:58 PM
i liked the article.

people need to be called out for things they say and do.

I ask that every person that calls themself a supporter, to look in the mirror and see if you are a supporter.


sadly, some around here do not qualify

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 04:00 PM
You call this embarassing ??? being called out by a former ticket rep recently promoted ? Did you watch the press conference big boy ?

Riiiiight.....and that's the general sediment by the non-group affiliated TFC fan. :facepalm:

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 04:00 PM
sadly, some around here do not qualify

some don't but may do.

either way, it's not up to the TFC office types to criticize us for being 'bandwagon jumpers' when we aren't.

hell.... an article based on two opposing comments? Think of how much material this forum must provide them!!


and very little of it actually has anything to do with being a 'real supporter' or not

Whoop
10-29-2009, 04:01 PM
If MLSE didn't have the good fortune of buying the Leafs from Steve Stavro and riding the backs of that goldmine, they would be dead in the water.

I mean I support the team in spite of an ownership that keeps putting its foot in its mouth continuously.

I never question my support of the team, primarily the product on the pitch, but at times I question my support of a team owned by MLSE.

Another reason why I'm glad I'm not a Leafs fan and/or a Raptors fan. I would hate to take it from all three sides.

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 04:02 PM
the non-group affiliated TFC fan.

those people probably will never see the article - but they know we will.

wzhxvy
10-29-2009, 04:02 PM
Riiiiight.....and that's the general sediment by the non-group affiliated TFC fan. :facepalm:

Uhuh. Good one. Anyone who knows what it means to be part or associated with a successful organization knows that the press conference was an embarassing low point for the organization.

You want a guy on a blog to affirm your opinion, go nuts.

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 04:03 PM
i liked the article.

people need to be called out for things they say and do.

I ask that every person that calls themself a supporter, to look in the mirror and see if you are a supporter.


sadly, some around here do not qualify

Well said Pat!!! People who sing the TFC till I die chant.....maybe some need to change it to TFC till their losing/as long as MO isn't incharge/Cummins is gone/the MLSE "consipracy" is over, I know I am i'm sure I am!

Parkdale
10-29-2009, 04:06 PM
maybe some need to change it to TFC till their losing/as long as MO isn't incharge/Cummins is gone/the MLSE "consipracy" is over....

how many people are saying that?

99% of the people here are saying they will continue to support TFC, but wish that changes are made to make the club better (be it replacing mo/cummins/whoever).

criticizing the team when they aren't on the field is fine.
during the 90 - we should be singing, but when the team isn't playing,
we are allowed to criticize the things that need improvement.

Beach_Red
10-29-2009, 04:14 PM
Uhuh. Good one. Anyone who knows what it means to be part or associated with a successful organization knows that the press conference was an embarassing low point for the organization.


Do you mean the three year old TFC organization, or MLSE? Because if you want to look for low points in their history...

Whoop
10-29-2009, 04:17 PM
some don't but may do.

either way, it's not up to the TFC office types to criticize us for being 'bandwagon jumpers' when we aren't.

hell.... an article based on two opposing comments? Think of how much material this forum must provide them!!


and very little of it actually has anything to do with being a 'real supporter' or not

That's the point.

Even if I myself mock bandwagon jumpers, as a member of the FO you don't f'in criticize them.

If this was some random blog there wouldn't be this animosity.

This just smacks of the ultimate in condescendence. And I hate condescending people.

I mean you don't see other corporations like Mattel, when they had their lead paint scare a couple of years ago, say "yeah our toys had lead paint in them but it's your fault for letting your kids swallow or lick the toys."

This article is stating "Yeah we were shit last weekend, but don't be to critical of us."

EDIT:
I still think trane hit it on the head.

"Keep paying and shut the fuck up."

wzhxvy
10-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Do you mean the three year old TFC organization, or MLSE? Because if you want to look for low points in their history...

I dont pretend to be a historian on MLSE or TFC. What I can tell you though is that anyone who knows how successful and healthy organizations should work, would cringe at that display that was called a press conference.

trane
10-29-2009, 04:19 PM
^ My only issue with King Dave, whome I fully support in his capaign for Dictator, or if you prefer the more PC King for Life, or President for Life, is his support for LFC, much as the writer of the article. Is this a plot to get popular support behind the King by LFC supporters. If so I am all for it. KING PRESIDENT DAVE FOR DICTATOR FOR LIFE.

TFC Tifoso
10-29-2009, 04:19 PM
regardless....MLSE as it exists has only been around for approx 10 years, I believe......

Beach_Red
10-29-2009, 04:24 PM
I dont pretend to be a historian on MLSE or TFC. What I can tell you though is that anyone who knows how successful and healthy organizations should work, would cringe and at that display that was called a press conference.


Cringe, yes, of course, but not be surprised.

And yes, as it is now MLSE hasn't been around that long, but it is previous companies absorbed into that one and still carries the baggage.

Rudi
10-29-2009, 04:26 PM
This article is stating "Yeah we were shit last weekend, but don't be to critical of us."
If that's true, why did he write this part?


There is no hiding Toronto's shameful end to the 2009 season. I am certainly not writing to paper over the disaster in East Rutherford. The club was humiliated and changes have already been made and more are on the way.

Supporters should definitely remain vigilant, as they have, and let the club know how they feel in a strong fashion when necessary. The Danny Dichio "Thank You" banner proved there isn't much that TFC supporters aren't capable of. Heavy criticism leveled at the club is part of the contract between the team and its fans when things fall apart in such a spectacular fashion. Criticism is mandatory.I genuinely do not understand why people are continuously getting mad at only half of Asif's blog entry without acknowledging the other half.

Auzzy
10-29-2009, 04:26 PM
I'm wondering if some people have actually read the article. Even Asif says criticism isn't bad -- in fact, he says it's a sign of a true supporter.

For example, "Like the best football supporters, I too am a cynic who refuses to focus on just positive things. It's too easy to do that. Unless my team wins the maximum points or the trophy, what was so positive about it? I don't have much time for people who wake up each morning wearing rose-coloured glasses, and then aggravate me with their insane blindness to reality. Positive people anger me."

Well, I don't know if that's the only valid type of a supporter, but whatever.

Continuing: "That's not to say there shouldn't be a "reckoning." There is no hiding Toronto's shameful end to the 2009 season. I am certainly not writing to paper over the disaster in East Rutherford. The club was humiliated and changes have already been made and more are on the way."

Well, we shall see about that.... but continuing: "Supporters should definitely remain vigilant, as they have, and let the club know how they feel in a strong fashion when necessary." "Heavy criticism leveled at the club is part of the contract between the team and its fans when things fall apart in such a spectacular fashion. Criticism is mandatory."

Of course, the problem wasn't only with the final game... A couple of lines in his article are total BS. Most of it is pretty good, if it had been written by someone else, somewhere else, or at least not after the TFC's own disasters of the past week.

Shaughno
10-29-2009, 04:31 PM
My sentiments toward the article still stand.

Rule #1 in sports ownership in regards to fan relations.
- Don't criticize your fans in public, be it the hardcore supporters or the "bandwagoners".

Rule #2 in sports ownership in regards to fan relations.
- See Rule #1.


That's the point.

Even if I myself mock bandwagon jumpers, as a member of the FO you don't f'in criticize them.

If this was some random blog there wouldn't be this animosity.

This just smacks of the ultimate in condescendence. And I hate condescending people.

I mean you don't see other corporations like Mattel, when they had their lead paint scare a couple of years ago, say "yeah our toys had lead paint in them but it's your fault for letting your kids swallow or lick the toys."

This article is stating "Yeah we were shit last weekend, but don't be to critical of us."

EDIT:
I still think trane hit it on the head.

"Keep paying and shut the fuck up."


Two of the best posts in both of these threads.

#1. The fans, no matter if they are hardchore or part timers, still pay your bills. Never, EVER criticize your fans in public. Especially after your inept Front Office has done jack squat in the way of finding a competant MLS coach and got absolutely blown out of the water by the worst team in the league... in a game that couldn't have been BIGGER for both team and fans.

#2. It's so true. Don't bitch at us for our wrong doings, keep paying us money though. We like that part.

How about, eat a dick MLSE. Provide quality on and off the pitch first. Something you've 'promised' to bring us for three years now. I almost didn't renew my tickets this year. Not because I'm a fair weather fan, or a bandwagoner, but because I felt that MLSE did not deserve my hard earned money. I ended up caving and buying them on the very last day of renewals. I also sent a very politically correct email to my rep to voice my displeasure and how if the trend continues with no improved product, I will no longer renew my season tickets and instead will invest my money in road trips instead.

/end rant.

king dave
10-29-2009, 04:32 PM
^ My only issue with King Dave, whome I fully support in his capaign for Dictator, or if you prefer the more PC King for Life, or President for Life, is his support for LFC, much as the writer of the article. Is this a plot to get popular support behind the King by LFC supporters. If so I am all for it. KING PRESIDENT DAVE FOR DICTATOR FOR LIFE.

Thanks for the support Trane.
Let's keep on topic for now and I do believe this thread has run it's course.
Great input from a varied group of supporters here today.
No plot. Just a legit offer to maybe represent this group with the help of everyone who cares about this team.
We have to move forward.
The other option sucks dick!
KD.

DichioTFC
10-29-2009, 04:35 PM
the article had good intentions, to rally support, but the aggressive marketing (saying certain fans are more welcome than others) is uncalled for. something like this would be better suited for march, after we've had time to reflect and move on from the NY debacle.

i used to work for a provincial hydro company, a pretty good company with a solid record. one day, two field employees died while doing routine checks of company property. EVERYONE in the company was gutted and devastated. in the wake of the incident, the CEO of the company took the time to speak to everyone he possibly could via open forum and address as many questions and concerns as possible. trust me, many people were UPSET and took their anger out through the public forum. but the CEO's main message was that changes would be made to ensure the safety of all employees and that he recognized the importance of the employees to the overall company structure. in the end he was respected for taking the blame, accepting responsibility and making sure the little people still are empowered; that the strength of the whole is defined by those who comprise the whole.

although the difference between dying due to a workplace accident and not making the playoffs is night and day, the point is that i would much rather have the people in charge of this organization (MoJo, Tom, Peddie, anyone) to take the time out to address the fans directly (not through automated emails), and let us know that they are as aware as we are of the problems facing the team. treat us like members of the team as opposed to anonymous cashbags that fill their stadium every week.

Whoop
10-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Most of the people here are kind of saying the same thing from Parkdale to TFC Niagara to TFC Tifoso.

WE ALL SUPPORT THE TEAM.

Yet some of us are critical of MLSE.

While one entity owns the owns the other, they are in fact separate.

I mean TFC Niagara you support Manchester United, but does that mean you support the Glazers? It's like Jerry Seinfeld says "you support the jersey". You don't care who is in that jersey, much less who owns that jersey.

So when it comes to MLSE, in regards to TFC I have the following questions, and since MLSE is a major corporation, we can use corporation speak so they understand...

- Where are the checks and balances? When someone fails are there ramifications?
The team failed to make the playoffs, which they stated at the beginning of the year was one of their goals. Instead of someone being held accountable for that, they decided to reward the person in charge with an extension. All it would have took would have been a decision by the higher ups to say "We'll talk about extensions at the END of the season."

- Is there a clear division in roles and responsibilities?
It appears that Mo was more than likely meddling in the affairs of the coaching staff.

- How are concerns of employees handled? How are your employees treated?
See Danny Dichio.

- And lastly is there a pursuit of excellence?
Well... I'll leave that to you guys.

trane
10-29-2009, 04:36 PM
If that's true, why did he write this part?

I genuinely do not understand why people are continuously getting mad at only half of Asif's blog entry without acknowledging the other half.

Because the club is not entiteled to our money, we may love the team, but does not mean that we have to buy seasons tickets. We can be supporters by choosing to give the club a sign BY staying away. I have not chosen this, but if I get so fed up and decide to do it, out of frustration with the FO, I am no less of a supporter if I do so. I am certainly more of a supporter then the Leaf pan that has been eating their shit for years, and let them turn a once proud franchise into the laughing stock of the NHL. All supporters of all great clubs have done similar things in teh past. Paul James hits it on the head in his article.

Whoop
10-29-2009, 04:37 PM
I genuinely do not understand why people are continuously getting mad at only half of Asif's blog entry without acknowledging the other half.

Rudi, I just think it's case of where it's coming from. Not so much the message.

trane
10-29-2009, 04:38 PM
^ That is the major problem Whoopee, it is not for them to write this.

prizby
10-29-2009, 04:38 PM
so i just read it..prizby is famous on the internets!


haha, i had a nice smile on my face - i showed some of my buddies...they got a laugh at "To me the prizbies of the world are reliable people and mature supporters." (in a joking manner)


And his avatar is famous too!
KD.


my avatar is <3




his avatar for president


debatable at best :P

Whoop
10-29-2009, 04:41 PM
Also keep in mind, many people were torn about renewing their season tickets because of the results on the pitch and because of the fact that they raised the tickets prices in lieu of the poor performance on the pitch.

And now this...

MLSE... not so good about the little things.

Whoop
10-29-2009, 04:49 PM
This was posted in the closed thread... but a good read nonetheless.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/tfc-supporters-wont-stand-for-failure-forever/article1339528/

My favourite points.

"Lack of on-field success, ineptness in leadership, and overall poor technical quality of your team are met with derision and activism, not just strong opinion. To put things in perspective here, MLSE's Toronto Maple Leafs hockey fans, when viewed from the global soccer environment, do not make sense. Win or lose, nothing changes. Fans just keep coming back like they are doomed to the addiction. Not the case with soccer fans."

"Competent changes are required, although herein lies the conundrum. How do you correct something when you really do not know your stuff? "

Rudi
10-29-2009, 04:55 PM
Because the club is not entiteled to our money, we may love the team, but does not mean that we have to buy seasons tickets. We can be supporters by choosing to give the club a sign BY staying away. I have not chosen this, but if I get so fed up and decide to do it, out of frustration with the FO, I am no less of a supporter if I do so. I am certainly more of a supporter then the Leaf pan that has been eating their shit for years, and let them turn a once proud franchise into the laughing stock of the NHL.
I hate, hate, hate the Leaf crutch that gets thrown about.

Do the Yankees suffer because they've become a stadium full of prawnies and have effectively priced out the real fans?

The Leafs are not a mess simply because people continue to attend games. That is a lazy hypothesis put forth by the Toronto sports media and parroted by too many people eager for an explanation.

The Leafs have been mismanaged by a board that fancies themselves as hockey minds, even though they are far from it. MLSE has been far from cheap in dealing with the Leafs, quite the opposite.

The ACC consistently selling out has zero to do with the Leafs failures under MLSE (which are completely overblown BTW, the Leafs have been very good very recently, although they never got over the hump to actually be one of 30 teams to win a Stanley Cup one year, and now they are a shambles). MLSE is a corporation driven by the bottom line, and the bottom line is that winning makes much more money than constantly crashing out of the playoffs.

Winning means lucrative playoff tickets, winning means more merchandise sales, winning means franchise value goes up, winning means increased TV ratings, winning means next year's ticket prices can be raised much higher than they are now.

Knowing that winning means all of these things, and that MLSE is "greedy", why would they not want to do everything in their power to win?

The answer is that they havem, but up until this point they haven't been good at it.

The same can be said for TFC, albeit on a much smaller scale. Mo Johnston is not the right man to lead a winning team, I agree with this theory, but he has a much larger margin of error in MLS than Burke has in the NHL.


Rudi, I just think it's case of where it's coming from. Not so much the message.
But if it's not so much the message, how can you criticize him for the contents of the message?

That's exactly what you're doing when you imply that he doesn't want you to criticize, even though he explicitly wrote the exact opposite.







No disrespect meant to either of you BTW, I'm just engaging in discussion and I respect both of your viewpoints. I just get a bit passionate at times. :)

DichioTFC
10-29-2009, 05:09 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/gfx/johnston-mo070115cp.jpghttp://people.bu.edu/ragsdale/ImageWithEqualSigns/EqualSign.jpghttp://www.nba.com/media/raptors/isiahwithlogo_200.jpghttp://people.bu.edu/ragsdale/ImageWithEqualSigns/EqualSign.jpghttp://www.irvingstudios.com/child_abuse_survivor_monument/images/ken_dryden.jpg

MLSE hired great soccer player to lead their team to success. Epic fail.
MLSE hired great basketball player to lead their team to success. Epic fail.
MLSE hired great hockey player to lead their team to success. Epic fail.

Auzzy
10-29-2009, 05:10 PM
Rudi, I criticize him, as an employee, for telling supporters how they should support, and for specific parts of the content including some very weak comparisons (supporting LFC; supporting your brother). This after it has become abundantly clear that there's a ton of crap they need to clean up within their own team. I don't feel they are supporting us, or each other, enough.

Here's how this topic might have made sense on the Toronto FC website, if they really wanted to touch the whole thing. First of all, wait a while, let some wounds heal. We have enough news to digest now. We will have plenty of slow-news weeks coming up.

Then they could have interviewed a couple of known people from the supporters groups, or the boards, or whatever. Bring some different quotes from these people, about supporting, bandwagon jumping, etc. Basically let the different opinions duke it out directly with each other. Include a bit of criticism of the club to keep it realistic.

But in the end, they can package & present it so the gist of piece praises the "good" supporters & leaves us with warm fuzzy feelings about the supporters & the club. If these "supporters" put the "bandwagon jumpers" down a bit, who cares -- the bandwagoners won't read it anyway, and at least it won't be coming directly from the club.

king dave
10-29-2009, 05:41 PM
Me thinks the MLSE template is in place here.
They firmly believe it to be a successful business model.
And they are correct to date.
Tickets sold, $$$ generated, full to capacity arenas/stadiums.
A shareholders dream!
A shareholders pension!
A shareholders template!
How do I become a shareholder in this organization?
Truth!
KD.

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 05:43 PM
how many people are saying that?

99% of the people here are saying they will continue to support TFC, but wish that changes are made to make the club better (be it replacing mo/cummins/whoever).

criticizing the team when they aren't on the field is fine.
during the 90 - we should be singing, but when the team isn't playing,
we are allowed to criticize the things that need improvement.

Of course we are allowed to criticize things, Mike, and we certainly should. What I am saying is the manner in which we criticize. Tell me which of these seems more effective to you:

Thread title: Can't keep a lead, this team sucks!!!

1st post - "Fire Cummins, fire Mo, clean house....I am so sick of this terrible team and MLSE!!!!!!! I am done, my tickets are gone!!!!

or

Thread title: What can we do to prevent late goals.

1st post - "Well, another late lead given up. Is it the coach? Is it the GM? Is it the team? The negatives out weigh the positives in this one, discuss.

That's my point, there is ranting and then there is contructive criticism and discussion. At all of the coaching clinics I have gone to they always say when you are criticizing a player, outline a positivie, then a negative.

EG. - "Johnny, that was a great run down the left, but next time try and cross the ball earlier"

or

EG. - "Johnny, that was fucking terrible! SIT DOWN"

Sometimes the 2nd option is better but not all the time.

After each game that we lose, there are 3 threads that spring up. Fire Mo, Fire Cummins, MLSE Conspiracy threads. What do those bring to the board after every single game? How is that constructively criticizing the team? If someone responds to this, I want them to honestly say how these three threads after every bad result are a good thing.

trane
10-29-2009, 05:48 PM
I hate, hate, hate the Leaf crutch that gets thrown about.

Do the Yankees suffer because they've become a stadium full of prawnies and have effectively priced out the real fans?

The Leafs are not a mess simply because people continue to attend games. That is a lazy hypothesis put forth by the Toronto sports media and parroted by too many people eager for an explanation.

The Leafs have been mismanaged by a board that fancies themselves as hockey minds, even though they are far from it. MLSE has been far from cheap in dealing with the Leafs, quite the opposite.

The ACC consistently selling out has zero to do with the Leafs failures under MLSE (which are completely overblown BTW, the Leafs have been very good very recently, although they never got over the hump to actually be one of 30 teams to win a Stanley Cup one year, and now they are a shambles). MLSE is a corporation driven by the bottom line, and the bottom line is that winning makes much more money than constantly crashing out of the playoffs.

Winning means lucrative playoff tickets, winning means more merchandise sales, winning means franchise value goes up, winning means increased TV ratings, winning means next year's ticket prices can be raised much higher than they are now.

Knowing that winning means all of these things, and that MLSE is "greedy", why would they not want to do everything in their power to win?

The answer is that they havem, but up until this point they haven't been good at it.

The same can be said for TFC, albeit on a much smaller scale. Mo Johnston is not the right man to lead a winning team, I agree with this theory, but he has a much larger margin of error in MLS than Burke has in the NHL.


But if it's not so much the message, how can you criticize him for the contents of the message?

That's exactly what you're doing when you imply that he doesn't want you to criticize, even though he explicitly wrote the exact opposite.







No disrespect meant to either of you BTW, I'm just engaging in discussion and I respect both of your viewpoints. I just get a bit passionate at times. :)

The leaf analogy is not one that I love, but I do use at times. However, I will say this when the Yankees were not winning the stadium was not full. Then they got better, now the stadium is full. I remember the days between say 1984 and 1994 when the power in Baseball were the Blue Jays, my recolection was that Toronto looked like New York, and New York may have not looked quite as bad in the stands as TO but not too far. Same for almost any sports club in the world winning brings reven us. Now I do not think the MLSE is not interested in winning. Of course they are, but they do not have that urgent pressure that most clubs do. That is a problem.

king dave
10-29-2009, 05:55 PM
Good post Tim.
Will see you on the 3rd thread later tonight after this one is closed and retitled.

Hey, Parky is out for the evening!!!
Let's GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
KD.

Beach_Red
10-29-2009, 06:27 PM
The leaf analogy is not one that I love, but I do use at times. However, I will say this when the Yankees were not winning the stadium was not full. Then they got better, now the stadium is full. I remember the days between say 1984 and 1994 when the power in Baseball were the Blue Jays, my recolection was that Toronto looked like New York, and New York may have not looked quite as bad in the stands as TO but not too far. Same for almost any sports club in the world winning brings reven us. Now I do not think the MLSE is not interested in winning. Of course they are, but they do not have that urgent pressure that most clubs do. That is a problem.


You're right. The problem now is that the "urgent pressure" being applied isn't directed at winning, it's directed at personel changes that we think will bring about winning.

That's the Leaf analogy, that's what Leaf fans do - they pick favourites (for reasons I'll never figure out other than maybe they are, "good Canadian boys") and the team rewards them long-term, big money contracts.

And MLSE is now repeating what is a pretty successful model for them here. It isn't greed, or even incompetence - it's what works.

The good news is that the compay has shown that it actually does respond to pressure. The bad news is the pressure has to be free of sentimentalism and free from any kind of cult of personality - good or bad.

You know how in Leaf-land there is no middle, people are either MVP quality, saviours, the best in the league! or they are bums, useless, get them out of here! I was assured that the sophisticated soccer fans were different from Leaf fans - is that true?

FluSH
10-29-2009, 06:59 PM
Alright... so I finally finished reading the article. I stopped earlier today after reading this:



But I do have supporter credentials.
I've spent most of the 1990s and all of this decade supporting Liverpool Football Club. Yes, that club which hasn't won an English league title in all of the years that I've actively supported it. I even pay a monthly fee to have full access to their website. If the day comes when all of my belongings are being possessed and my credit cards are being revoked, the e-season ticket on the LFC site will be the absolute last thing that I will surrender.


Asif doesn't elaborate how he is a supporter of LFC... I mean does watching games and paying a monthly fee make you a supporter? I don't think so... to me that's a fan. Asif so far has said he will continue to be a fan of LFC... great for him!

There is an application process to be a Red Patch Boy... we changed things around this year...(and hopefully things will be fined tuned next year)... This year you had to outline and specifically tell us what area of RPB you would be interested in contributing or helping in order to ultimately support the club... whether it was tailgates, fundraising, banners, travel etc... you had to choose an element where you would like to contribute. I must say I have seen a lot of new faces step up to the plate this year and this is good news... To me this is supporting... to go beyond simply being a fan... I won't say all of our members have been capable of physcially helping, but a good portion has been active at some point or another, have expressed interest to get involved, or have been generous in contributing donations so we could get paint giant banners, help the tailgate team, or subsidize the travel team whenever they can't get enough seats to fill a bus...

Again a supporter to me is someone who goes beyond being a simple fan.

Now Asif's title The Kick about: Dude, Where's My Bandwagon? rubs me the wrong way, because I have yet to know what Asif does to support Toronto FC... maybe he is a supporter I don't know... but it seems like he is insulting a lot of people out there who were devastated after that horrific loss.

I remember that thread were Prizby posted those words... and I posted that I was walking around with my TFC jacket and sweater the next day... what I didn't mentioned is that I felt our crest had been tarnished... I went to Tim Horton's and I received comments... then to a children's party where mothers who knew absolutely nothing about TFC saw my sweater and talked about the 0-5 loss they heard on the radio to the worst team in the leage.... I felt that someone had soiled on our TFC crest...

A supporter will also be a defender... I've said many times that I may not support the war (management) but I support the troops (players) However, I will also defend the honour of this crest and if that means trashing the players or management that have caused dishonour because of their bullshit then so be it...

The way management treated Dichio will not be forgotten... the way some of our players did not showup on the field that October night will also not be forgotten... They know who they are, and hopefully next year they won't be with the team...

Corcai
10-29-2009, 07:25 PM
I agree with Whoopee. I didn't like the condescending tone of the article which most of us could agree would not be read by the fairweather fan, but rather "supporters".

I think this article, while not well thought out was aimed at maybe some of the people in Toronto, that are fairweather fans (i.e Argos, Blue Jays).
Problem is no of those people probably would read that article.

Doesn't piss me off. As for the "supporters" that have read the article, I highly doubt any of those individuals that have contributed so much to the support of TFC (unlike myself this year) have even thought seriously for a moment of abandoning the support of TFC (management, yes TFC, no)

I just think this piece was directed at people who wouldn't be reading it on a website where those who are true supporters would.

Not very well written on the wrong platform. I don't think he is calling anyone of the RPBs that support their team out on this.

Hitcho
10-29-2009, 08:24 PM
I'm still angry at this. Who the hell is this pr1ck to start lecturing anyone in the 20,000 strong crowd, whatever their level of "support" or "fandom", when those people ahve given MLSe and TFC a sold out crowd for three years straight, and what they've received in return is a bunch of uncommitted performances from a dressing room that is now rumoured to be rife with poison and the mother of all lies and cover ups in the way the club's first tru hero was handled?

You're seriously telling me that a ticket rep on the MLSE payroll from the get go (who, by the way, openly admits to putting his stupid e-season ticket for a club he;s probably never seen play live before his TFC shirt and season tickets - i mean, wtf??!) is actually going to sit there in his MLSE office and start lecturing people who have turned up through some thick and lots of thin and been faced with continually rising price hikes along the way?

And he's doing this after the mother of face slaps from the team on the final day of the season?

I'm incredulous, absolutely incredulous. If this was vetted and approved, then it;s a major fuck up by the club and a serious slap in the nuts to a pretty fucking loyal fan base (as a whole, we may grips a lot but there's a lot to gripe about and precious little to cheer so far) but we're still LOYAL.

And he does this after the banner on the final day of the season which people put lots of their own time and money into?

Who the hell is he to question any of us? RPB, soccer mom, or otherwise?

PAUL B - this was a kick in the nuts to the club's fans, and whatever his intention it's clearly come across all wrong. I repeat my request to pull the article and have Asif write an apology for any offence caused. It's called good PR with your customers.

Or would MLSE just like us to suck it up and start saving for the increase in beer prices next seaosn and the next kit launch (that is if we don't jump off the fucking bandwagon before then).

MUFC_Niagara
10-29-2009, 08:40 PM
^^ We slapped Mo and Cummins in the face all season, what's the diffo, Hitcho?

Hitcho
10-29-2009, 09:22 PM
^ I'm not sure what your point is? Sorry, just didn't make any connection based on your post!

Although from a personal POV, up until the last week or so I have been supporting since season one, and have always thought CC was doing the best he could having been dumped in over his head and left in a ridicuously difficult situation in terms of his authority over the team.

So whatever your point is, I'm not sure it's going to apply to me mate! :D

Cashcleaner
10-30-2009, 12:05 AM
I didn't have a chance to write anything about this earlier today, so please excuse the delayed reaction on my part, but simply put: Asif is way off base with that article.

Look, Asif. We just got our asses handed to us with five goals against by a team that has barely moved the ball 100 yards over the course of the season. On top of that, we lost our interim coach who made it very clear as to the state of the locker room and a GM who feels he has little to be held accountable for. And with all that in mind, let's remember that our ticket prices have been raised again. So please spare me with your analysis of fans vs. supporters when it really looks like you should have better things to worry about at the office.

ensco
10-30-2009, 07:30 AM
I believe that the birth and growth of the supporters group is considered by the MLSE brass to be a corporate accomplishment of MLSE brass.

This is uncomfortable as it has some truth to it. (At least half of you don't believe that it's true, I know that already.)

Asif's piece makes us uncomfortable (even if he's right, even assuming that he did this 100% of his volition and with good intentions) because it shines a light on the one of the cold hard truths of our participation in the TFC thing:

We're suckers.

I'm top of the list.

FluSH
10-30-2009, 07:38 AM
I believe that the birth and growth of the supporters group is considered by the MLSE brass to be a corporate accomplishment of MLSE brass.

This is uncomfortable as it has some truth to it. (At least half of you don't believe that it's true, I know that already.)
.

You need to elaborate further here... TFC FO was open to dialogue and welcomed us with open arms even helping us whenever possible to the extent that we allowed them to. However, that is not to say a supporter group wouldn't grow with or without communication with TFC FO.... it would be more of an Ultra group that's for sure... but I would have still been here and many of my fellow supporters... At the same time TFC FO has welcomed TRN and embraced them... but I don't see that they have grown... The credit on the growth of the supporters will never be MLSE's accomplishment to take...

Oldtimer
10-30-2009, 07:40 AM
I believe that the birth and growth of the supporters group is considered by the MLSE brass to be a corporate accomplishment of MLSE brass.



The truth is, they allowed us to do our thing. They have no credit beyond that. Football supporters, we do our thing, world-wide, our way.

pekduck
10-30-2009, 07:44 AM
The truth is, they allowed us to do our thing. They have no credit beyond that. Football supporters, we do our thing, world-wide, our way.

That credit, they should get. How many FO in MLS are willing to provide a platform for SGs to grow?

Now, each individual SG should get credit for their own growth and achievements. All SGs were treated relatively on the same footing by our FO, how far each of us go, as the above post illustrated, is all of our own effort.

At last, I still don't see how that article is putting the credit on MLSE one way or the other. Trying to read between the lines too much perhaps?

FluSH
10-30-2009, 07:45 AM
^^^
The only credit I would say is the building of our relationship and partnership... but like I said... had that not occurred at least this group would have been more of an hardcore Ultra mentality...

koryo
10-30-2009, 07:46 AM
Honestly, I thought the article was thick.
I don't this know Asif fellow and I don't care to, but he needs to pull his head out of his arse.

The part that really didn't sit well with me was (and I'm only paraphrasing here) the bit where he compares Prizby with the bandwagon jumper and says something to the effect of "I know who I'd rather have in my corner." He's effectively saying that MLSE isn't responsible for the performance of the team by clearly making the person, who's had enough of watching shit football, inferior.

Fact is, I couldn't blame anyone for turning their back on this team. Most of the time this team doesn't deserve our support (note: statement skewed in light of last Saturday's result).

If anyone walks away from this club, then as far as I'm concerned it's the organization running the club that has failed.

Beach_Red
10-30-2009, 08:22 AM
I believe that the birth and growth of the supporters group is considered by the MLSE brass to be a corporate accomplishment of MLSE brass.

This is uncomfortable as it has some truth to it. (At least half of you don't believe that it's true, I know that already.)

Asif's piece makes us uncomfortable (even if he's right, even assuming that he did this 100% of his volition and with good intentions) because it shines a light on the one of the cold hard truths of our participation in the TFC thing:

We're suckers.

I'm top of the list.

Yes, I'm right there with you.

At a corporate structure like MLSE you can be sure that someone is taking credit for the 'accomplishment' - and selling that to their boss. High enough up the chain of command it becomes people totally unconcerned with sports (people who may even be quite condescending about sports and sport 'fans') that the employees are trying to please.

That's not to blame MLSE specifically, it's corporate structure in Canada. I see exactly the same thing with the TV networks and film companies I work for.

ensco
10-30-2009, 08:52 AM
Flush, it's what Beach Red said. I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying it's what happens (probably) behind closed doors.

Plus there's something more to it than just "they welcomed us with open arms"...need to differentiate between the "board" and the "people in the stands". The people in the stands, that happens organically, but the board, Paul B coming on here had a real impact in making RPB important.

I_AM_CANADIAN
10-30-2009, 08:59 AM
Personally, I thought that article was great. The most effective condemnation of bandwagoners and fairweather fans I've ever seen.

Darlofletch
10-30-2009, 10:10 AM
Another angle to this whole story.

Asif's recollections of being a Liverpool supporter through all the hard times, and still being more a liverpool supporter that tfc really made me reflect.

Over 20 years ago, I started supporting my local team, Darlington, when I lived near there I went to all the home games and probably half of the away games each year. 13 years ago, i moved to Canada so couldn't really watch many games, though I did once fly back to england for a weekend for their first ever game at wembley, and when I go back home I still go watch games. generally though I have to follow their results via the internet. Despite that handicap, I remained a loyal supporter, just like Asif would want.

Then this other club popped up out of nowhere, It was shiny and new, i gave it a casual look and it turned out to be a lot of fun, so i jumped on the bandwagon (the shame, the shame, I'm sorry Asif). Now I think of this new team as my main team and darlington have become a bit of an afterthought. Asif's article really made me think so i'll have to renounce TFC to go back to my proper first love, all the while flagellating myself for falling prey to the bandwagon temptation.

I exaggerate obviously, but I'd be happy to bet that a good 90% or more of tfc supporters were supporters of someone else first, whether it's the lynx, some other usl or mls club or someone overseas, and have to some extent abandoned or diluted their support for that club in favour of TFC.

And any future supporters TFC is trying to tempt are probably currently supporters of other teams, so is undying love for your original team really what TFC wants to promote? really?

Let's face it, though some got in earlier than others, or are more involved than others, we're all bandwgon jumpers, so caveat emptor Asif, I'm going home this christmas, the proper supporter thing to do would be to buy a Darlo shirt or scarf to wear instead of my tfc one. is that what you want?

Hitcho
10-30-2009, 10:27 AM
UP THE DARLO!!!!

(we hate poolies)

FluSH
10-30-2009, 10:50 AM
Flush, it's what Beach Red said. I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying it's what happens (probably) behind closed doors.

Plus there's something more to it than just "they welcomed us with open arms"...need to differentiate between the "board" and the "people in the stands". The people in the stands, that happens organically, but the board, Paul B coming on here had a real impact in making RPB important.

You keep associating Paul B like he is the Pope... there are many people who have no idea who Paul B is... also there are many members like my brothers who never come here and have no idea who mlsintoronto is but still live and die for this club...

If you were awed by Paul B and his posts here then that is your experience... the guys that I know that get their hands dirty while painting banners underneath the Gardiner could careless if he posts here...

I'm also wondering to hear your explinantion of how NEE has grown to where they are now? Paul B certainly doesn't post there...

trane
10-30-2009, 11:16 AM
Another angle to this whole story.

Asif's recollections of being a Liverpool supporter through all the hard times, and still being more a liverpool supporter that tfc really made me reflect.

Over 20 years ago, I started supporting my local team, Darlington, when I lived near there I went to all the home games and probably half of the away games each year. 13 years ago, i moved to Canada so couldn't really watch many games, though I did once fly back to england for a weekend for their first ever game at wembley, and when I go back home I still go watch games. generally though I have to follow their results via the internet. Despite that handicap, I remained a loyal supporter, just like Asif would want.

Then this other club popped up out of nowhere, It was shiny and new, i gave it a casual look and it turned out to be a lot of fun, so i jumped on the bandwagon (the shame, the shame, I'm sorry Asif). Now I think of this new team as my main team and darlington have become a bit of an afterthought. Asif's article really made me think so i'll have to renounce TFC to go back to my proper first love, all the while flagellating myself for falling prey to the bandwagon temptation.

I exaggerate obviously, but I'd be happy to bet that a good 90% or more of tfc supporters were supporters of someone else first, whether it's the lynx, some other usl or mls club or someone overseas, and have to some extent abandoned or diluted their support for that club in favour of TFC.

And any future supporters TFC is trying to tempt are probably currently supporters of other teams, so is undying love for your original team really what TFC wants to promote? really?

Let's face it, though some got in earlier than others, or are more involved than others, we're all bandwgon jumpers, so caveat emptor Asif, I'm going home this christmas, the proper supporter thing to do would be to buy a Darlo shirt or scarf to wear instead of my tfc one. is that what you want?


You are right. Thanks Asif FORZA MILAN- RE DI MILANO. I cannot abandon the team of my youth, the city were I learned to love footy. Thanks Asif.

trane
10-30-2009, 11:35 AM
Just because I am ocean away should not mean that I shuold jump off the Milan bandwagon. So I have now decided, after reading Asif article, that I should jump off this MLSE bandwagon, and stay with the club I had already pledged my heart too years ago. AC MILAN. So 2010 will be my last season. Thank you MLSE. You are right. Just because Milan is going through some tought times, I should not fail to give them their all.

Much like Asif does for his belloved LFC. Good job MLSE. I shuold spend the $1000.00 plus a year, I spend on TFC and send it to San Siro ( the red and black side that is Curva Sud).

Also thanks Darlofletch for helping me wake up.

Guajiro
10-30-2009, 11:39 AM
wait... King Dave is not getting worked up over something? ;)

If they are on damage control, this might not have been the best way to do it.
The point of the article is correct -- supporters don't switch colours when times get tough,
but the way that point was presented was very, very screwed up.

It wasn't as terrible a read as people make it out to be. It's not journalism, it's opinion, and people are entitled to have one. The writer never said fans shouldn't be angry, or demand change, just that they shouldn't jump ship entirely.

I think a lot of fans took the rant far too personally. If you are one of those fans that did, it means you still care about the team and the article probably wasn't about you :) Cheer up.

P.S. the writer probably wouldn't like me because I'm being too positive, but whatever...it's just an opinion

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 12:15 PM
Alright... so I finally finished reading the article. I stopped earlier today after reading this:



Asif doesn't elaborate how he is a supporter of LFC... I mean does watching games and paying a monthly fee make you a supporter? I don't think so... to me that's a fan. Asif so far has said he will continue to be a fan of LFC... great for him!

There is an application process to be a Red Patch Boy... we changed things around this year...(and hopefully things will be fined tuned next year)... This year you had to outline and specifically tell us what area of RPB you would be interested in contributing or helping in order to ultimately support the club... whether it was tailgates, fundraising, banners, travel etc... you had to choose an element where you would like to contribute. I must say I have seen a lot of new faces step up to the plate this year and this is good news... To me this is supporting... to go beyond simply being a fan... I won't say all of our members have been capable of physcially helping, but a good portion has been active at some point or another, have expressed interest to get involved, or have been generous in contributing donations so we could get paint giant banners, help the tailgate team, or subsidize the travel team whenever they can't get enough seats to fill a bus...

Again a supporter to me is someone who goes beyond being a simple fan.

Now Asif's title The Kick about: Dude, Where's My Bandwagon? rubs me the wrong way, because I have yet to know what Asif does to support Toronto FC... maybe he is a supporter I don't know... but it seems like he is insulting a lot of people out there who were devastated after that horrific loss.

I remember that thread were Prizby posted those words... and I posted that I was walking around with my TFC jacket and sweater the next day... what I didn't mentioned is that I felt our crest had been tarnished... I went to Tim Horton's and I received comments... then to a children's party where mothers who knew absolutely nothing about TFC saw my sweater and talked about the 0-5 loss they heard on the radio to the worst team in the leage.... I felt that someone had soiled on our TFC crest...

A supporter will also be a defender... I've said many times that I may not support the war (management) but I support the troops (players) However, I will also defend the honour of this crest and if that means trashing the players or management that have caused dishonour because of their bullshit then so be it...

The way management treated Dichio will not be forgotten... the way some of our players did not showup on the field that October night will also not be forgotten... They know who they are, and hopefully next year they won't be with the team...

This post speaks to me.

Flushie...I heart you baby.

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 12:16 PM
The truth is, they allowed us to do our thing. They have no credit beyond that. Football supporters, we do our thing, world-wide, our way.

Amen. There is nothing more to say about that falsehood.

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 12:22 PM
It's not journalism, it's opinion, and people are entitled to have one. The writer never said fans shouldn't be angry, or demand change, just that they shouldn't jump ship entirely.

To even suggest that people should not jump ship is indicative of the fact that the team is scared that people might just do that. So in effect, this becomes a marketing piece, not an opinion piece. This was meant to shame people into renewing their season's tickets. That's disgraceful. Because of their own ineptitude, they have pushed the fairweather fans out. And as much as I dislike them at times, fairweather fans are necessary, because you are never going to fill the stadium all season long with 20,000 hardcore fans. You need a mix of both.

Add to that the fact that this "opinion" piece came from the team's official website, and it adds an additional level of offensiveness to the piece. At it's core, this is the organization trying to shame US when it is in fact them that should be ashamed of their own failures. It is hypocrisy. Toronto FC fans have shown this team continuous support for 3 long painful years and now that there is inkling of disatisfaction, they decide that this is a time for them to give us a lesson on how to be a supporter. This from a group of people that have little actual credibility in being supporters themselves as opposed to fans. The Liverpool piece example being the most laughable.

This isn't some board user posting his opinion. This is an MLSE staffer posting an approved article on the team's official media source. This is beyond "opinion".

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 12:23 PM
Flush, it's what Beach Red said. I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying it's what happens (probably) behind closed doors.

Plus there's something more to it than just "they welcomed us with open arms"...need to differentiate between the "board" and the "people in the stands". The people in the stands, that happens organically, but the board, Paul B coming on here had a real impact in making RPB important.

So in essence there would be no supporters groups without Paul B? How does that explain that the supporters groups existed and were growing BEFORE Paul B ever revealed himself?

Shaughno
10-30-2009, 12:26 PM
So in essence there would be no supporters groups without Paul B? How does that explain that the supporters groups existed and were growing BEFORE Paul B ever revealed himself?

Or in Usector's case... before TFC was even a thought in anyone's mind.

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 12:26 PM
^Exactly

Boris
10-30-2009, 12:28 PM
Or in Usector's case... before TFC was even a thought in anyone's mind.


^Exactly

...............hell......has.....frozen......over

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 12:30 PM
It froze over weeks ago...I think we are Dr Who territory...in some weird world of opposites.

Parkdale
10-30-2009, 12:34 PM
How does that explain that the supporters groups existed and were growing BEFORE Paul B ever revealed himself?

so that would explain how his name got on the 'naughty list'.

trane
10-30-2009, 12:44 PM
To even suggest that people should not jump ship is indicative of the fact that the team is scared that people might just do that. So in effect, this becomes a marketing piece, not an opinion piece. This was meant to shame people into renewing their season's tickets. That's disgraceful. Because of their own ineptitude, they have pushed the fairweather fans out. And as much as I dislike them at times, fairweather fans are necessary, because you are never going to fill the stadium all season long with 20,000 hardcore fans. You need a mix of both.

Add to that the fact that this "opinion" piece came from the team's official website, and it adds an additional level of offensiveness to the piece. At it's core, this is the organization trying to shame US when it is in fact them that should be ashamed of their own failures. It is hypocrisy. Toronto FC fans have shown this team continuous support for 3 long painful years and now that there is inkling of disatisfaction, they decide that this is a time for them to give us a lesson on how to be a supporter. This from a group of people that have little actual credibility in being supporters themselves as opposed to fans. The Liverpool piece example being the most laughable.

This isn't some board user posting his opinion. This is an MLSE staffer posting an approved article on the team's official media source. This is beyond "opinion".

Exactly.

GhostKiller
10-30-2009, 12:45 PM
It wouldn’t be as much of a deal if it wasn’t someone from MLSE wagging a finger at people who are fed up with the team and their lack of performance. Are they worried we are going to have an influx of Crew fans in Toronto now? Get fuckin real. In this league its home side or nothing. The league isn’t developed enough to have “Lebron jerseys at a Raptor game”. Every league in every professional sport is going to have people there for the good and not for the bad. Get over it. Put your efforts in making sure the people who are there in the bad are happy. This article screams “IF YOU DON”T PAY US MONEY YOU IS A BAD SUPPORTER”. So fuck you guy who wrote the article, fuck you MLSE if you had any part in this and fuck any (MLS) team that doesn’t start with Toronto and end with FC.

scooter
10-30-2009, 01:37 PM
no, he's been writing those for ages (and a ton of other TFC / GOL TV content). Guy's a very good writer, but I think this one falls into the 'too soon' category.

also, it should have come from a supporter, not from an 'official' source.

i think this thing is getting blown out of proportion

but i do agree maybe it should have come from a supporter

scooter
10-30-2009, 01:40 PM
...............hell......has.....frozen......over

not possible the leafs did not win the stanley cup

Whoop
10-30-2009, 02:24 PM
Looks like NFL fans are become ultras. Or is that non-supporters? :D


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bal-sp.nflnotes30oct30,0,11762.story

Cleveland's Dawg Pound member aims to claw back

Browns fans urged to boycott kickoff vs. Ravens


One of the most loyal Dawg Pounders is done barking about the sad state of his beloved Cleveland Browns. It's time to bite.

Lifelong Browns fan and season-ticket holder Mike Randall, aka "Dawg Pound Mike," is encouraging other Cleveland fans to stay away from their seats for the opening kickoff of the 1-6 Browns' Nov. 16 home game against the Ravens.

Sickened by the nearly constant losing since the NFL team's return in 1999, Randall hopes the sight of empty seats for the start of the nationally televised Monday night game will send a loud message to team owner Randy Lerner and club officials that fans have had enough.

"We're tired of losing," Randall, 39, said. "We're tired of the booing, of seeing fans leave in the fourth quarter. There are fans who have had tickets for 30 years who are turning their seats in because they can't take it anymore. So many fans are fed up."

Randall and his friend Tony Schafer decided to go ahead with plans for the protest after Sunday's 31-3 loss to the Green Bay Packers. As they walked out of the stadium, they heard fans grumbling about how they're wasting their Sundays and money.

Their hope is that fans stay outside the stadium, on concourses or in the restrooms for the start of the game.

Lerner said in an e-mail that he understands the fans' frustration.

"On the grounds of frustration and irritation with performance, then that's the medicine [we] are going to take, and I accept that," he said. "The goal this year was to rebuild the culture at the Browns. We felt at the end of last year that we lacked any overall philosophy, approach or direction regarding recruiting, drafting, coaching, preparation or training. As a result, each season was feeling like starting over and 4-12 following 10-6 felt painfully not all that surprising."

Lerner said the team remains open to feedback and support to help the Browns improve.

"We won't become entrenched or stubborn, and despite my allergy to [being] more conspicuous, I do remain eager to seek help and guidance from any and all corners," he said.

ensco
10-30-2009, 02:25 PM
So in essence there would be no supporters groups without Paul B? How does that explain that the supporters groups existed and were growing BEFORE Paul B ever revealed himself?

I'm commenting less on RPB and/or usector as fan groups at the game, and more on RPB's role as by far the best place/clearinghouse for informed TFC discussion/debate. This is the way in which I primarily relate to RPB (although I had a few bucks and huge respect for the Dichio banner).

Plus it's not just him - it was BMO Field also (I'm talking 2007) ...then Ben Knight and other reporters started coming on...the influence of the board is a function of all of that

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 02:28 PM
I can see that. However, I'd have to disagree (surprise! LOL!)

Paul B came on here because it was already a place where that was happening. I think the fact he did come on here at the beginning did give a lot of what was happening here some credibility (and hence probably added to the growth of this site somewhat) but that was a secondary effect, not a primary one IMHO.

ensco
10-30-2009, 02:30 PM
^OK. I see that. That could be right. Hard to know.

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 02:33 PM
Stop it Ensco...people agreeing with me doesn't lend well to my need to argue. :D

Parkdale
10-30-2009, 02:39 PM
Paul B came on here because it was already a place where that was happening. I think the fact he did come on here at the beginning did give a lot of what was happening here some credibility (and hence probably added to the growth of this site somewhat) but that was a secondary effect, not a primary one IMHO.


the mlsintoronto account has been on these forums (including usector's board too) for a very, very long time. In fact, back when there were only 30 ofr so of us, Paul B was already there talking with us. You are right roogs, that he probably saw this site as a positive thing, and a way to get instant feedback on ideas. No one knew how big it would get, not him, not me, not dubrick, not anyone.

Your point that his presence help grow the site is true, but it wasn't just him. There were lots of people 'in the know' coming here and breaking the news first. In fact, most of the BIG stories that got broken though the board were into the newspapers before we'd get it confirmed by mlsintoronto.

yeah, not sure what my point was again, but I guess I'll just say it's positive thing that people saw the potential this board had in the early days.

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 02:41 PM
LOL! You are pretty much agreeing with me amigo but seem to be all over the place.

Guajiro
10-30-2009, 02:57 PM
I guess the article just didn't affect me personally in the same way. I'm not a season ticket holder, as I haven't been in the country much in recent years. I just go to the odd game when I'm in town and generally watch the games online from afar. I take what I read on the tfc website with a grain of salt and actually put more stock in what I read here on the forums.

I guess people can choose to be upset about something if they wish, but I personally wouldn't put my energy into it. The Leafs are another story. There's plenty to be upset about there. I'm so glad I was never a fan of that franchise.


To even suggest that people should not jump ship is indicative of the fact that the team is scared that people might just do that. So in effect, this becomes a marketing piece, not an opinion piece. This was meant to shame people into renewing their season's tickets. That's disgraceful. Because of their own ineptitude, they have pushed the fairweather fans out. And as much as I dislike them at times, fairweather fans are necessary, because you are never going to fill the stadium all season long with 20,000 hardcore fans. You need a mix of both.

Add to that the fact that this "opinion" piece came from the team's official website, and it adds an additional level of offensiveness to the piece. At it's core, this is the organization trying to shame US when it is in fact them that should be ashamed of their own failures. It is hypocrisy. Toronto FC fans have shown this team continuous support for 3 long painful years and now that there is inkling of disatisfaction, they decide that this is a time for them to give us a lesson on how to be a supporter. This from a group of people that have little actual credibility in being supporters themselves as opposed to fans. The Liverpool piece example being the most laughable.

This isn't some board user posting his opinion. This is an MLSE staffer posting an approved article on the team's official media source. This is beyond "opinion".

Roogsy
10-30-2009, 03:09 PM
I guess the article just didn't affect me personally in the same way. I'm not a season ticket holder, as I haven't been in the country much in recent years. I just go to the odd game when I'm in town and generally watch the games online from afar. I take what I read on the tfc website with a grain of salt and actually put more stock in what I read here on the forums.

I guess people can choose to be upset about something if they wish, but I personally wouldn't put my energy into it. The Leafs are another story. There's plenty to be upset about there. I'm so glad I was never a fan of that franchise.

And that is ok. It really all depends on how much you have invested in this team and how you feel about it.

For example, (and I am not claiming to be the best supporters or anything, just using myself as an example because I know what I have personally invested in this team):

I have spent almost $10,000 in season's tickets so far.
I have spent probably thousands of dollars in merchandise.
I have definitely spent thousands of dollars in road trips to see the team show me 1 win, 4 losses and a draw including the offensive 5-0 drubbing of last Saturday.
I have spent hundreds of hours at games, at banner paintings, at cleanups.
I have spent countless conversations encouraging people who are disinterested in TFC to watch games on TV, come to games with me, and to pay attention in general.
I have given up family time, weddings, funerals, rest time and vacation time for this team.

To then have some snot-nosed brat tell ME how to support a team (regardless if I am one of those who said he would walk away from TFC, which I am NOT) is offensive to me. The hubris! This from someone who gets PAID by the team? Someone who outlines his allegiances to ANOTHER club before even this one who pays him? Someone who hasn't been seen at a single banner painting, away game section, chanting session, away-game viewing? Seriously? What authority or credibility does HE have to tell someone else who has given up time, money and his own guts for this team, how to support? Because he claims he would give up his online membership to Liverpool.co.uk last above anything else? Beacuse he has the "TFC" logo on his business card? Where is this supposed evidence of superior fielty to the team? This is just as offensive as when those moralist politicians who lecture everyone else and pass laws on how people should live their lives then get found out as being more degraded and immoral as everyone else. If you're going to tell someone how to do something, show that you can do it yourself or shut the hell up.

Parkdale
10-30-2009, 03:39 PM
I have spent almost $10,000 in season's tickets so far.
I have spent probably thousands of dollars in merchandise....

damn... we could have gone to the kentucky derby instead and lived like ballers.

Mikey
10-30-2009, 09:34 PM
And that is ok. It really all depends on how much you have invested in this team and how you feel about it.

For example, (and I am not claiming to be the best supporters or anything, just using myself as an example because I know what I have personally invested in this team):

I have spent almost $10,000 in season's tickets so far.
I have spent probably thousands of dollars in merchandise.
I have definitely spent thousands of dollars in road trips to see the team show me 1 win, 4 losses and a draw including the offensive 5-0 drubbing of last Saturday.
I have spent hundreds of hours at games, at banner paintings, at cleanups.
I have spent countless conversations encouraging people who are disinterested in TFC to watch games on TV, come to games with me, and to pay attention in general.
I have given up family time, weddings, funerals, rest time and vacation time for this team.

To then have some snot-nosed brat tell ME how to support a team (regardless if I am one of those who said he would walk away from TFC, which I am NOT) is offensive to me. The hubris! This from someone who gets PAID by the team? Someone who outlines his allegiances to ANOTHER club before even this one who pays him? Someone who hasn't been seen at a single banner painting, away game section, chanting session, away-game viewing? Seriously? What authority or credibility does HE have to tell someone else who has given up time, money and his own guts for this team, how to support? Because he claims he would give up his online membership to Liverpool.co.uk last above anything else? Beacuse he has the "TFC" logo on his business card? Where is this supposed evidence of superior fielty to the team? This is just as offensive as when those moralist politicians who lecture everyone else and pass laws on how people should live their lives then get found out as being more degraded and immoral as everyone else. If you're going to tell someone how to do something, show that you can do it yourself or shut the hell up.


Can I get this printed on a T-shirt?

I'm sending a copy of this to my ticket rep, every paper in town, every TV station in town, the mayors office, Parliament in Ottawa and the Vatican.

I expect to see a framed copy on the wall of Shoeless Joes.

Awesome rebuttal !!