The Elephant in the Room - Mo Johnston

[Cashcleaner]

Over the last 48 hours, we've been inundated with a lot of info coming from the locker room and front office at Toronto FC. Myself, I keep seeing the point being raised about Mo Johnston's tenure and the recent news of locker room discontent toward our General Manager.

So let's have at it. Let's just get an idea on what people here are really thinking. Mo Johnston: Should he stay or should he go?

[Jay P]

stay.

[Whoop]

Go...

But all those huffing and puffing for him to go... you're out of shit luck because he SIGNED AN EXTENSION.

[MUFC_Niagara]

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=18188

Mods, can we merge these?

[Cashcleaner]

You were quick, Jay P. I didn't even get the poll finished! :D

[flatpicker]

The problem with this argument is that it deals with an unavoidable situation.
Mo is here for another year; guaranteed.
Assuming we make the playoffs next year... he will almost certainly be here for 2011 as well.

So, perhaps the discussion needs to focus more on "what can be done to solve these issues while Mo is in charge?"

[Parkdale]

keep Mo strictly for the MLS drafts and trades with other teams, but get a real coach who doesn't answer to him.

As long as the coach is under the 'director of soccer', there will be conflicts.

[Cashcleaner]

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=18188

Mods, can we merge these?

Not sure if we can now that the poll is up.


Go...

But all those huffing and puffing for him to go... you're out of shit luck because he SIGNED AN EXTENSION.

It's just a completely hypothetical poll. Let's just assume we have access to a time machine.

[MUFC_Niagara]

i vote stay....he was promised a minimum of 5 years, he deserves to at least get the 5.

[Jay P]

You were quick, Jay P. I didn't even get the poll finished! :D

LOL as i finished my post i got an email from TFC i mean mo johnston.


and yes, he said 5 years, so I'll reserve judgement till 2011.


wow i hit the yes button too on the poll... its time to head home from work me thinks.

[flatpicker]

I vote no.
Because I believe everything he says!

[Beach_Red]

The problem with this argument is that it deals with an unavoidable situation.
Mo is here for another year; guaranteed.
Assuming we make the playoffs next year... he will almost certainly be here for 2011 as well.

So, perhaps the discussion needs to focus more on "what can be done to solve these issues while Mo is in charge?"


That might be constructive - so it would certainly be out of place here ;).

Right now he should clean up his own mess.

The thing about a corporate structure like MLSE is that it's built on buck-passing. No one at the top is ultimately responsible - so we're relying on someone in the middle, some middle-manager, to get something done.

If this mess doesn't get cleaned up by the people who made it, then the buck will simply get passed to the next guy willing to work for MLSE. They'll hire someone who says all the right things at their interview. That likely won't be an experienced, successful 'name' manager with any other choices.

Look how long it took then to find someone to run their hockey team - something which could almost be called a glamour job - and is he really the first choice? (of course, look how much they're paying him)

[Nuvinho]

Mo must Go! Mo must Go!

[TorontoBlades]

put the Monster in net!!!!!!

[Nuvinho]

Why are we letting MoJo vote multiple times?

[kitchener-TFC]

I'm with parkdale. Keep Mo for trades/drafts/aquisitions.

[Hitcho]

keep Mo strictly for the MLS drafts and trades with other teams, but get a real coach who doesn't answer to him.

I think this would be my preferred option too. Mo's a monster at making trades that work in our favour and understanding all the nuances of MLS, plus he does a lot of homework on the draft which enables him to make good decisions there.

But we need a rock solid coach that takes no shit from anyone, management or players, to then lead us forward on the pitch. He identifies where we need players, and individuals if he knows them, Mo brings them in through trades and drafting. TFC wins trophies galore! :scarf:

[nialando]

Sir Alex Ferguson managed Manchester United with no success for 3 years. Then after almost getting the axe in 1990 they won the FA cup. He had been building a team all that time, establishing a culture of winning. The next few years were pretty successful by my count.

[VPjr]

keep Mo strictly for the MLS drafts and trades with other teams, but get a real coach who doesn't answer to him.

As long as the coach is under the 'director of soccer', there will be conflicts.

Do you really believe he is the best drafter or trader in the league? Do you not think that someone else could have picked Mo Edu #1 and Sam Cronin #2?

For every trade he made, I can point to others that suck and handcuff the team. trading for Dero (good)....trading for Garcia (horrid). trading for Wynne (not graet but not horrible)...trading away Dunivant (stupid misjudgement).

Sorry, Mo Must Go. He doesn't do anything that someone else couldn't do. Why do people feel the management talent pool in MLS is so unbelievably thin?

[Hustle]

But what about the issues where Mo seems to be making promises to staff that he can't keep? How are we going to stop that and change the culture if he is still around?

Mo has some positives but how do we shield the rest of the team from this shifty persona he has?

[VPjr]

Sir Alex Ferguson managed Manchester United with no success for 3 years. Then after almost getting the axe in 1990 they won the FA cup. He had been building a team all that time, establishing a culture of winning. The next few years were pretty successful by my count.

are you really trying to draw parallels between Mo and Sir Alex?

My memory aint the best but I do vaguely remember relatively successful spells at Aberdeen, St Mirren and he even coached Scotland before taking over at Man U.

What on earth does Mo have on his non-playing resume that would permit anyone to even fathom comparing these two men? :picard:

[MartinUtd]

People are still buying into that 5 year bullshit? Show me one other employer on this planet that has a 5 year probationary period before any worthwhile review?

I voted no. I gave him the benefit of the doubt up until that New York game. He's had MORE than enough time to show us what he can do and the display has been dismal.

[Cambridge_Red]

if you vote stay post your reason why. This should be a good laugh :D

[Roogsy]

Sir Alex Ferguson managed Manchester United with no success for 3 years. Then after almost getting the axe in 1990 they won the FA cup. He had been building a team all that time, establishing a culture of winning. The next few years were pretty successful by my count.

You will remember he had success at Aberdeen before he arrived at Man United...earning him the credibility he needed to develop what he wanted over 3+ years. So far, we haven't seen any signs that going beyond 3 years will find us in any better position. For every Sir Alex, there are tons of no-name directors that stayed far longer than they should have.

[Beach_Red]

But what about the issues where Mo seems to be making promises to staff that he can't keep? How are we going to stop that and change the culture if he is still around?

Mo has some positives but how do we shield the rest of the team from this shifty persona he has?


Come on, the players all have agents - is there anyone more shifty than a sports agent?

[Pookie]

Along Beach Red's line of thinking, if Mo is here for awhile longer, we've got to work with it.

Riddle me this... what if Mo became the Coach (again) and Director? Sort of like Lou Lamoriello when he stepped behind the Devils bench years ago.

I'm not necessarily recommending it as the record as coach wasn't exactly stellar. At the same time, this is a team he built with ideas as to how they could play together. Rather than try to bully a coach into adopting his ideas, let him run with it.

Some suggest that some of our egos need a hard as nails coach. Well, a coach that has the power to bench you AND buy out your contract is pretty powerful.

In that sense, we don't look to fill Cummins' role, we look to provide Mo with an assistant... someone who could take over IF he ends up hanging himself with another playoff miss next year.

If the guy is going to overstep his coaching

[wzhxvy]

I voted No. I will also be responding to his email.

[wzhxvy]

My email back:

I appreciate the time that your PR/CoMM department took to write this email, however, it does not come close to address the serious issues that exist within the TFC organization. Mo Johnstone should be held accountable for the performance of the club and the complete and utter disorganization within the team and constant press leaks. As a loyal fan and season ticket holder, it was embarassing to listen to and watch the press conference today. I hope MLSE leadership share that embarassment and will take immediate action to rectify the situation.

[scooterTFC]

As I've said in other threads Mo has earned the reputation of being a slippery character. The question is whether that is good or bad trait for a MLS manager? Is Mo a 'snake' who's character is poisoning the locker-room and causing feeiling distrust towards the club amongst the staff and players? Or is 'trader Mo' a cunning manipulator that can talk other managers into one-sided trades that help the club? Either way he's kinda slippery - if we're winning its good thing if we're losing its a bad thing. If you look at the coverage of the team over the past few years you'll see that the media flip-flops their portrayal of him depending on recent events. Its their job to stir things up. Bill Belicheck is shady character... he cuts players after they've been injured, spies on other teams practices, and probably cheats the NFL salary cap with back room deals to load his roster... but he wins so nobody in Boston is hating on him. Being a good person is not alwasy an advantage in job like this.

[Beach_Red]

Riddle me this... what if Mo became the Coach (again) and Director? Sort of like Lou Lamoriello when he stepped behind the Devils bench years ago.



Maybe better to go in the other direction. MLSE is full of suits, that's not going to change and they need one to be the "Director of Soccer," might as well be Mo.

The new guy is completely in charge of the team, coach-GM.

Is that more like Jim Rutherford, going from player to front office guy?

[drewski]

My email back:

I appreciate the time that your PR/CoMM department took to write this email, however, it does not come close to address the serious issues that exist within the TFC organization. Mo Johnstone should be held accountable for the performance of the club and the complete and utter disorganization within the team and constant press leaks. As a loyal fan and season ticket holder, it was embarassing to listen to and watch the press conference today. I hope MLSE leadership share that embarrassment and will take immediate action to rectify the situation.

if you want your call for heads to roll to be taken seriously, spell the name of the person you want held accountable right

[wzhxvy]

if you want your call for heads to roll to be taken seriously, spell the name of the person you want held accountable right

Not so sure that spelling his name right takes away from the message but thank you for pointing that out.

[jloome]

I find it incomprehensible that he's still employed. MLSE have obviously mistake sound profit for full potential. A winning team would make them a lot more money.

[Roogsy]

I find it incomprehensible that he's still employed. MLSE have obviously mistake sound profit for full potential. A winning team would make them a lot more money.

This is what racks my brain the most.

It absolutely confounds me!

[grizzle]

He seems quite shady to me and I don't believe that he has no involvement with the coaching of the team. If the coach is reporting to him, why didn't he step in to address the issues long before things got to the point that they did. I love how in the interview he sits back acting like its not his fault because he "didn't know about the problems" but at the same time says it is his fault because he is the main guy. As the main guy it should be his job to find out if there are issues.

[Whoop]

I find it incomprehensible that he's still employed. MLSE have obviously mistake sound profit for full potential. A winning team would make them a lot more money.


This is what racks my brain the most.

It absolutely confounds me!

It does.

But doing that usually requires more risk.

Spending more money for likely the same result.

But yeah, winning teams would make a helluva lot more money and people would care less about spending money because the team is winning!

[Beach_Red]

My email back:

I appreciate the time that your PR/CoMM department took to write this email, however, it does not come close to address the serious issues that exist within the TFC organization. Mo Johnstone should be held accountable for the performance of the club and the complete and utter disorganization within the team and constant press leaks. As a loyal fan and season ticket holder, it was embarassing to listen to and watch the press conference today. I hope MLSE leadership share that embarassment and will take immediate action to rectify the situation.

That's a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

[wzhxvy]

I find it incomprehensible that he's still employed. MLSE have obviously mistake sound profit for full potential. A winning team would make them a lot more money.

But we should also remember that with the exception of a subset of MO haters (including me), some minor press leaks and questionable players/coaching issues, the MO issues have never been as exposed to this scale and magnitude. It has never been this transparent, and so blatantly obvious what the issue is. I firmly think that Ansalmi and MLSE brass know now that MO is a serious issue...I think now its just a matter of what the straw that will break the camel back will be.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

IN synthesis.. after 3 years... many players have passed thru this club as did coaches. . The only common denominator i see here is MO...

ps: those who think he should draft only LMAO... we will see how big of a genius he is next year... that we don;t have a top pick. ..

[Cashcleaner]

But we should also remember that with the exception of a subset of MO haters (including me), some minor press leaks and questionable players/coaching issues, the MO issues have never been as exposed to this scale and magnitude. It has never been this transparent, and so blatantly obvious what the issue is. I firmly think that Ansalmi and MLSE brass know now that MO is a serious issue...I think now its just a matter of what the straw that will break the camel back will be.

But he did get that contract extension. I know what you're saying, but I don't see how they would offer that extension if they really wanted him out the door.

[DOMIN8R]

They could and probably buy him out if next year fails to meet expectations. Or today for that matter.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

But we should also remember that with the exception of a subset of MO haters (including me), some minor press leaks and questionable players/coaching issues, the MO issues have never been as exposed to this scale and magnitude. It has never been this transparent, and so blatantly obvious what the issue is. I firmly think that Ansalmi and MLSE brass know now that MO is a serious issue...I think now its just a matter of what the straw that will break the camel back will be.
please elaborate about the exposure... I am not a fan of mo ... so i;d like to know.. did someone of the players call mo out? what exposure you are talking about? This is not a critical question more like i want to learn about the detailes...

[wzhxvy]

But he did get that contract extension. I know what you're saying, but I don't see how they would offer that extension if they really wanted him out the door.

Yes I think the contract extension was a decision reached earlier this year, based on the info they had at that time. I am just saying that now they have different level of information about MO and his performance. So their future decisions will now take this into account. I think MO has definetly lost some points lately...just not enough to get fired. Mased on what we heard today from John and others...I would not be surprised if more stuff surfaces that will be the straw that breakes the camels bacj.

By the way, to his credit, what a masterful stroke to get his contract extended earlier this year before year end...I mean brilliant on his part and for his benefit.

[wzhxvy]

please elaborate about the exposure... I am not a fan of mo ... so i;d like to know.. did someone of the players call mo out? what exposure you are talking about? This is not a critical question more like i want to learn about the detailes...

I just meant the flood of negative press, the press conference today (you should really watch it if you havent), and the threat of more negative leaks...I think he has received a ton of negative exposure lately.

[Beach_Red]

Yes I think the contract extension was a decision reached earlier this year, based on the info they had at that time. I am just saying that now they have different level of information about MO and his performance. So their future decisions will not take this into account. I think MO has definetly lost some points lately...just not enough to get fired. Mased on what we heard today from John and others...I would not be surprised if more stuff surfaces that will be the straw that breakes the camels bacj.

By the way, to his credit, what a masterful stroke to get his contract extended earlier this year before year end...I mean brilliant on his part and for his benefit.


(I can't stand to actually watch the press conference, so...) wasn't there something said about still working on the "finance" of the contract? It sounds like a deal was reached during the season but not finalized, so chances are it isn't the same as it would have been if the team had done better. Which would be typical of MLSE trying to save a buck (you get what you pay for, after all). Chances are, too, the contract has some performance clauses in it, finally.

Really, it looks like either the team will do a lot better next year, or it will be the last season for Mo. You can put up with one more year, right?

My problem is I don't think I can put up with MLSE any more and they aren't going anywhere. As UA-Kozak said, there is a constant here - just I think it's a higher up constant and I don't think changing some middle management will make any difference.

[wzhxvy]

Wrt his contract, I think he was coached to say that because if he had said it was a done deal it would raise questions as to why this was not announced earlier...so he made a stupid excuse to basically say it was done, but not done done...just watch his face when he "stretches the truth", its actually quite comical

[jloome]

Wrt his contract, I think he was coached to say that because if he had said it was a done deal it would raise questions as to why this was not announced earlier...so he made a stupid excuse to basically say it was done, but not done done...just watch his face when he "stretches the truth", its actually quite comical

If they haven't actually agreed financial terms, then it's not a done deal. Perhaps Mo was making that announcement to make sure MLSE's "commitment" to him was on the record, in case they pull the plug.

At any rate, we're going to have to wait and see if he can con someone into taking the coaching role despite everything circulating.

Someone suggested he and John Spencer are old mates from the Scottish national team. Spencer is one of the most highly coveted assistant managers in the league, and touted as a head coach.

This all could go south very quickly if Anselmi and crew don't recognize the inherent market weaknesses at play here relative to other pro leagues with longer histories. I don't think the TFC hardcores will ever abandon the team, but if they don't keep bringing the atmosphere, the other 3/4 of the stadium will.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

(I can't stand to actually watch the press conference, so...) wasn't there something said about still working on the "finance" of the contract? It sounds like a deal was reached during the season but not finalized, so chances are it isn't the same as it would have been if the team had done better. Which would be typical of MLSE trying to save a buck (you get what you pay for, after all). Chances are, too, the contract has some performance clauses in it, finally.

Really, it looks like either the team will do a lot better next year, or it will be the last season for Mo. You can put up with one more year, right?

My problem is I don't think I can put up with MLSE any more and they aren't going anywhere. As UA-Kozak said, there is a constant here - just I think it's a higher up constant and I don't think changing some middle management will make any difference.
I think the reason he said is JUST to soften the blow to not make MLSE look like fools who gave easy contracts without reason (which they are in this case) and hence why he is just trying to say that finnance aren;t finallized.. finances are the first thing that are in check when it comes to the deal specially when its a contract extension... it usually is a deal breaker. And he just doesn;t want to make mlse look bad because if a contract was finallized that means that they been hiding it for all this time... which never looks good. So yea don;t worry contract is signed are sealed he is just doing mlse a favour...

[ua-kozak_TFC]

Yes I think the contract extension was a decision reached earlier this year, based on the info they had at that time. I am just saying that now they have different level of information about MO and his performance. So their future decisions will now take this into account. I think MO has definetly lost some points lately...just not enough to get fired. Mased on what we heard today from John and others...I would not be surprised if more stuff surfaces that will be the straw that breakes the camels bacj.

By the way, to his credit, what a masterful stroke to get his contract extended earlier this year before year end...I mean brilliant on his part and for his benefit.
please elaborate... if you can

And the reason he doesn;t get fire because MLSE doesn;t want to waste money... since it is probably garanteed contract. And additional cost of a new GM. But trust if they held out a little longer and by this time the contract was not extended they would easily pull a plug to gain the fasn respect... it just happened that the deal is already done so they have to be sure of him now... and UNLESS something completely major hapens LIKE half empty stadiums next season nothing short of that will get him fired for atleast 2 more years...

[wzhxvy]

I think the reason he said is JUST to soften the blow to not make MLSE look like fools who gave easy contracts without reason (which they are in this case) and hence why he is just trying to say that finnance aren;t finallized.. finances are the first thing that are in check when it comes to the deal specially when its a contract extension... it usually is a deal breaker. And he just doesn;t want to make mlse look bad because if a contract was finallized that means that they been hiding it for all this time... which never looks good. So yea don;t worry contract is signed are sealed he is just doing mlse a favour...

bingo

[wzhxvy]

John's comments are earlier in the thread

[Cashcleaner]

Yes I think the contract extension was a decision reached earlier this year, based on the info they had at that time. I am just saying that now they have different level of information about MO and his performance. So their future decisions will now take this into account. I think MO has definetly lost some points lately...just not enough to get fired. Mased on what we heard today from John and others...I would not be surprised if more stuff surfaces that will be the straw that breakes the camels bacj.

By the way, to his credit, what a masterful stroke to get his contract extended earlier this year before year end...I mean brilliant on his part and for his benefit.


I had thought so as well, but was wondering if maybe things had changed because its been brought up so much lately.

[mclaren]

I said it years ago, was shot down on this board, and will say it again - Mo has to Go.

[MUFC_Niagara]

My email back:

I appreciate the time that your PR/CoMM department took to write this email, however, it does not come close to address the serious issues that exist within the TFC organization. Mo Johnstone should be held accountable for the performance of the club and the complete and utter disorganization within the team and constant press leaks. As a loyal fan and season ticket holder, it was embarassing to listen to and watch the press conference today. I hope MLSE leadership share that embarassment and will take immediate action to rectify the situation.

My response to you would be....who the hell is Mo Johnstone? We have a Mo Johnston working for us who was promised 5 years to build a competative playoff team. If we fired him after 3 years, what kind of message would that send to potential GM candidates who need time to build a winner? We respect you are upset, this past season was dissappointing and we are hoping that next season will bring us much more success. We can assure you that after Mo has used his 5 years we will certainly take action if the desired results have not been obtained.

[mclaren]

Sir Alex Ferguson managed Manchester United with no success for 3 years. Then after almost getting the axe in 1990 they won the FA cup. He had been building a team all that time, establishing a culture of winning. The next few years were pretty successful by my count.

Are you suggesting Mo is the new Alex Ferguson? If so, you have an excellent future in comedy my boy.

[wzhxvy]

My response back would be: I hope that my misspelling of the name did not cause immense confusion within your office, however my intent was clear. Please name me the MLSE GMs that have fulfilled the term of their contract in the last 20 years ?

I assume you watched the press conference today Niagara ? Did you not feel embarassed and ashamed that this guy was representing your team ? I sure did...this is such a cluserfu$% on so many levels.

[DOMIN8R]

What the hell is Bitchy.ca wzhxvy?

[MUFC_Niagara]

My response back would be: I hope that my misspelling of the name did not cause immense confusion within your office, however my intent was clear. Please name me the MLSE GMs that have fulfilled the term of their contract in the last 20 years ?

I assume you watched the press conference today Niagara ? Did you not feel embarassed and ashamed that this guy was representing your team ? I sure did...this is such a cluserfu$% on so many levels.

First of all, i'm not embarrassed or shamed. I am dissappointed in this past season like everyone else. Mo has 2 years to fix things. We have holes, there is no doubt. But as an expansion team with our first GM, I think its important that we give the guy the time he was alloted to build a winner, especially since his replacement would require time to fix it and would expect that he'd be given such time. It would be hard to covince a replacement that we'd give him his full promised tenure if we fire Mo after 3 of a promised 5 years. After the 2011 season if things are still a shambles then I will be the first one to say Mo has to go. Until then, I will afford him his time and see what he can do in the 2 years left. I honestly believe that is only fair.

[wzhxvy]

What the hell is Bitchy.ca wzhxvy?


Just a site I own...did you check what I did with it ? lol

[DOMIN8R]

^^^^ Yup. I did.

On another note:

Cummins said he would have gone home regardless of playoffs or a head coaching post and had some interesting parting shots that indicate dressing-room problems:

On his relationship with Johnston: "I think relationships are always going to be up and down and it's the same with all my staff ... I'm not going to come out here and badmouth people. Did I get support at times? Yes. Did I get it at other times? Probably not. ... I did the best I could have done with the group of players I was given."

[Batman]

go. He's a BSer to the max.

[wzhxvy]

First of all, i'm not embarrassed or shamed. I am dissappointed in this past season like everyone else. Mo has 2 years to fix things. We have holes, there is no doubt. But as an expansion team with our first GM, I think its important that we give the guy the time he was alloted to build a winner. after the 2011 season if things are still a shambles then I will be the first one to say Mo has to go. Until then, I will afford him his time and see what he can do in the 2 years left. I honestly believe that is only fair.

That position surprises me, but I respect your opinion. I guess I just have a different view on this...I think he has been given more than enough of a chance, is a polarizing personality to be nice (I have been warned for saying what I actually think of this guy) and my fear (and people are starting to hint at this) is that the worst is yet to come. If we take a step back next year because of him ie some of our players refuse to play here...or more unrest causing us to stagnate next year...then we are in HUGE trouble.

[MUFC_Niagara]

That position surprises me, but I respect your opinion. I guess I just have a different view on this...I think he has been given more than enough of a chance, is a polarizing personality to be nice (I have been warned for saying what I actually think of this guy) and my fear (and people are starting to hint at this) is that the worst is yet to come. If we take a step back next year because of him ie some of our players refuse to play here...or more unrest causing us to stagnate next year...then we are in HUGE trouble.

Ok, but as I said in my last post. By firing the guy 2 years from what he was promised, what are we saying to the replacement that needs time to fix things? What if he says he needs 3 years and after year 1 people aren't satisfied with what he has done. Fire him? Who in their right state of mind would take a job knowing that the plug could be pulled on their plan at any time?

[jloome]

That position surprises me, but I respect your opinion. I guess I just have a different view on this...I think he has been given more than enough of a chance, is a polarizing personality to be nice (I have been warned for saying what I actually think of this guy) and my fear (and people are starting to hint at this) is that the worst is yet to come. If we take a step back next year because of him ie some of our players refuse to play here...or more unrest causing us to stagnate next year...then we are in HUGE trouble.

I'd start taking bets on his departure date. This kind of rot alway collapses eventually, and it may be that MLSE will be awfully surprised by the scarcity of good coaching and playing candidates for next year.

What 20-goal striker is going to come to a team where the players allegedly fight in the lockerroom over who's getting favourtism? No one who isn't another headcase.

And unless the next coach gets non-interference clauses and family guarantees in writing, who's going to take Mo's word for it?

[Pachuco]

i vote stay....he was promised a minimum of 5 years, he deserves to at least get the 5.

Dichio was also promised he'd be here until the end of the season, guess what? that promise wasn't fulfilled, and guess by who? Mr Mo. Johnson himself.

Really, it's quite ironic to make the the sole argument towards keeping Mo here.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

First of all, i'm not embarrassed or shamed. I am dissappointed in this past season like everyone else. Mo has 2 years to fix things. We have holes, there is no doubt. But as an expansion team with our first GM, I think its important that we give the guy the time he was alloted to build a winner. after the 2011 season if things are still a shambles then I will be the first one to say Mo has to go. Until then, I will afford him his time and see what he can do in the 2 years left. I honestly believe that is only fair.
STOP living in the past.... WE ARE not an expansion team... Philadelphia is an expansion team... we BY DEFINITION ARE NOT!!!!! so don;t use that as an excuse....

hahahah i think by 2011 you would probably be the last one... not sure if look at it as naiveness or what..
just to remind you... when MO jhonston was talking about 5 year plan he was refering to the fact that in 5 year we will be a perenial power house a contender an cross fingers will have an MLS CUp... NOW to make the distinction the PLAY OFFs were prommised to US BY MO HIMSELF.... for 2008 season (check the new england post game interview if you don;t believe me...) That is why the bunch of the people held out their criticism to this season because if one wants to be a contender by year 5 a realistic goal would be to make the play offs by year 3 (or atleast game play progress) which would be a good litmus test on the progress of the team...

[Pachuco]

Ok, but as I said in my last post. By firing the guy 2 years from what he was promised, what are we saying to the replacement that needs time to fix things? What if he says he needs 3 years and after year 1 people aren't satisfied with what he has done. Fire him? Who in their right state of mind would take a job knowing that the plug could be pulled on their plan at any time?

So by making Dichio retire, who in the world would play for him? right? that's your point isn't it?

Contracts are written to be broken in the sports business. It's life. Then next guy should be saying I'll do a better job then Mo Johnston and won't put myself in that situation.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Dichio was also promised he'd be here until the end of the season, guess what? that promise wasn't fulfilled, and guess by who? Mr Mo. Johnson himself.

Really, it's quite ironic to make the the sole argument towards keeping Mo here.

Dichio left mutually, its a big difference, and if you don't care about Mo then fine. But if it a broken promise to the GM causes us to mis out on a good replacement, I think you be singing a different tune.

[MUFC_Niagara]

STOP living in the past.... WE ARE not an expansion team... Philadelphia is an expansion team... we BY DEFINITION ARE NOT!!!!! so don;t use that as an excuse....

hahahah i think by 2011 you would probably be the last one... not sure if look at it as naiveness or what..
just to remind you... when MO jhonston was talking about 5 year plan he was refering to the fact that in 5 year we will be a perenial power house a contender an cross fingers will have an MLS CUp... NOW to make the distinction the PLAY OFFs were prommised to US BY MO HIMSELF.... for 2008 season (check the new england post game interview if you don;t believe me...) That is why the bunch of the people held out their criticism to this season because if one wants to be a contender by year 5 a realistic goal would be to make the play offs by year 3 (or atleast game play progress) which would be a good litmus test on the progress of the team...

STOP worrying just about now! See my above post about consequences it could have on finding a good replacement.

[Pachuco]

Dichio left mutually, its a big difference, and if you don't care about Mo then fine. But if it a broken promise to the GM causes us to mis out on a good replacement, I think you be singing a different tune.

That is the most retarted thing I've ever heard. Dichio left mutually? holy shit, have you read anything on these boards since this happened? Do you really think Dichio didn't want to finish the season on the field? as a starter?

Oh my god, find me a team in any professional sports that hasn't fired their GM or Manager in the past? please, find me one. Based on your argument, nobody would be working for nobody in the sports business.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

^^^^ Yup. I did.

On another note:

Cummins said he would have gone home regardless of playoffs or a head coaching post and had some interesting parting shots that indicate dressing-room problems:

On his relationship with Johnston: "I think relationships are always going to be up and down and it's the same with all my staff ... I'm not going to come out here and badmouth people. Did I get support at times? Yes. Did I get it at other times? Probably not. ... I did the best I could have done with the group of players I was given."
GOLDEN... to tell you the truth. I think he is 100% RIGHT... having vidic and ferdinand in the back line is easy to coach... try to coach a team where your most experienced defender is GArcia... and your strickers as a whole have scored less than 10 goals in a season with 30 games...

As someone on this board once said... you can;t make chicken salad with chicken shit...

[Beach_Red]

I think the reason he said is JUST to soften the blow to not make MLSE look like fools who gave easy contracts without reason (which they are in this case) and hence why he is just trying to say that finnance aren;t finallized.. finances are the first thing that are in check when it comes to the deal specially when its a contract extension... it usually is a deal breaker. And he just doesn;t want to make mlse look bad because if a contract was finallized that means that they been hiding it for all this time... which never looks good. So yea don;t worry contract is signed are sealed he is just doing mlse a favour...


So, you're saying some ex-soccer player outsmarted all those lawyers and MBAs at MLSE? You're saying he controlled the situation and was making sure they didn't look bad?

I agree they've given many soft contracts in the past - always to players the fans loved, guys like Tie Domi and Darcy Tucker and other third line players Toronto fans thought could lead them to a Stanley Cup. Ask Mats Sundin about promises from MLSE, I think there was something about other players at his level.

I hope you guys are right but I can't see why things will be any different with a different manager. Or why you think a really good manager would work for MLSE.

[kaos197O]

Sorry guys but Mo just signed a contract EXTENSION a couple of months ago. He never had a 5 year contract......he had a 5 year plan-THAT'S IT. MLSE decided to buy into his 5 year plan recently and gave him an undeserving extension to his initial contract and for this I blame MLSE. Now, we are stuck with him and his ways. Funny thing he said in his SPEECH today (perhaps not in so many words but....) was that he would step down if he did not get this club into the playoffs next season. Based on his MASSIVE history for lying I'm sure he'll live up to his word, should he systemically throw us fans another stinker of a season in 2010. I hope he cleans up his act because we are stuck with him.....but I am skeptical as hell.

[wzhxvy]

Sorry guys but Mo just signed a contract EXTENSION a couple of months ago. He never had a 5 year contract......he had a 5 year plan-THAT'S IT. MLSE decided to buy into his 5 year plan recently and gave him an undeserving extension to his initial contract and for this I blame MLSE. Now, we are stuck with him and his ways. Funny thing he said in his SPEECH today (perhaps not in so many words but....) was that he would step down if he did not get this club into the playoffs next season. Based on his MASSIVE history for lying I'm sure he'll live up to his word, should he systemically throw us fans another stinker of a season in 2010. I hope he cleans up his act because we are stuck with him.....but I am skeptical as hell.

of course he did...we all or at least some of us know that. His Finance comment today was nothing more than a lie to make it sounds like an almost done deal but not quite...as to not expose the fact they have been hiding this publicaly and waiting for the right time to announce it...

[Roogsy]

That is the most retarted thing I've ever heard. Dichio left mutually? holy shit, have you read anything on these boards since this happened? Do you really think Dichio didn't want to finish the season on the field? as a starter?

Oh my god, find me a team in any professional sports that hasn't fired their GM or Manager in the past? please, find me one. Based on your argument, nobody would be working for nobody in the sports business.

The whole "wait for his 5 years to be up" is a foolhardy comment. In ANY industry, regardless if you are an employee or a contract worker, it is your ONGOING performance that determines whether you continue to be employed. Nobody waits until the end to fire someone who so obviously should have been fired partway through his contract.

And while we are at it, Mo technically did not "have" 5 years. If that were the case, his original contract would have taken him to the team's fifth season. His contract was up this year. It was just recently renewed. Being that he could not have possibly been renewed over the team's on-pitch results, the only remaining answer is that he was rewarded for making TFC/MLSE money, which is boneheaded since Mo didn't have anything to do with it, Paul B, the staff and the supporters had more to do with TFC's healthy $ position than Mo did save for the Edu deal. But it pretty much shows where MLSE's priorities really lie.

Wait for the 5 years? Who does that? Who hires a contractor who promises to build a house in a year and six months into it doesn't even have the foundation down and the homeowner says "Bah...he's got six more months!" ??? That's bad business, bad management, just bad. Smart owners would fire that contractor, our collection of geniuses decide to give him more time. :rolleyes:

[wzhxvy]

Who is Month Roogsy ?...please correct asap or some people will be really confused on this board

[Roogsy]

Stupid blackberry and its autocorrect!

[DOMIN8R]

This is the other one I really found informative:

"I think it's a good dressing room. but there were bad apples there.

"I went to (Mo Johnston) with certain concerns ... There's some great players on this team - Amado Guevara, people like that, that I have utmost respect for - but unfortunately, if you let one or two in who are not good characters. Maybe I shouldn't have let them disrupt it as much as they did."

[Beach_Red]

The whole "wait for his 5 years to be up" is a foolhardy comment. In ANY industry, regardless if you are an employee or a contract worker, it is your ONGOING performance that determines whether you continue to be employed. Nobody waits until the end to fire someone who so obviously should have been fired partway through his contract.

And while we are at it, Mo technically did not "have" 5 years. If that were the case, his original contract would have taken him to the team's fifth season. His contract was up this year. It was just recently renewed. Being that he could not have possibly been renewed over the team's on-pitch results, the only remaining answer is that he was rewarded for making TFC/MLSE money, which is boneheaded since Mo didn't have anything to do with it, Paul B, the staff and the supporters had more to do with TFC's healthy $ position than Month did save for the Edu deal. But it pretty much shows where MLSE's priorities really lie.

Wait for the 5 years? Who does that? Who hires a contractor who promises to build a house in a year and six months into it doesn't even have the foundation down and the homeowner says "Bah...he's got six more months!" ??? That's bad business, bad management, just bad. Smart owners would fire that contractor, our collection of geniuses decide to give him more time. :rolleyes:

Yes.

Now, I don't think there's any way to affect the bottom line and remain supporters, really, but I wish we wouldn't become Leaf fans. When TFC started I didn't think that would happen but then we started picking favourites (it's no wonder there's favouritism in the dressing room, it's rampant in the organization and rewarding it works, so why would they stop) and making it personal. We have made it, like Leaf fans, easy for MLSE to give us what we want, without having to give us championships.

[kaos197O]

This is the other one I really found informative:

"I think it's a good dressing room. but there were bad apples there.

"I went to (Mo Johnston) with certain concerns ... There's some great players on this team - Amado Guevara, people like that, that I have utmost respect for - but unfortunately, if you let one or two in who are not good characters. Maybe I shouldn't have let them disrupt it as much as they did."

Nice catch......while Amado is a great player, he may not be a good character. And everyone thought Cummins was talkin' all rosy 'bout good ole Amado......

[billyfly]

I couldn't vote b/c I just don't know.

[kaos197O]

Yes.

Now, I don't think there's any way to affect the bottom line and remain supporters, really, but I wish we wouldn't become Leaf fans. When TFC started I didn't think that would happen but then we started picking favourites (it's no wonder there's favouritism in the dressing room, it's rampant in the organization and rewarding it works, so why would they stop) and making it personal. We have made it, like Leaf fans, easy for MLSE to give us what we want, without having to give us championships.

Picking favorites? Who's doing this because it's not me! And how do you figure that we have become Leaf fans?

[FluSH]

I voted no

and I'll state my reasons why... just watching TFC today...

[MUFC_Niagara]

That is the most retarted thing I've ever heard. Dichio left mutually? holy shit, have you read anything on these boards since this happened? Do you really think Dichio didn't want to finish the season on the field? as a starter?

Oh my god, find me a team in any professional sports that hasn't fired their GM or Manager in the past? please, find me one. Based on your argument, nobody would be working for nobody in the sports business.

Well, first of all, if you are trying to make a point, your first mistake is trying to persuade me based on using this board as your reference. Secondaly, I have spoken to the man himself personally and I know how things went down, so forgive me for taking his word over "anything on these boards". Finally, in business terms, when you make a promise to staff member, it is good busniess practise to keep you word.

[MUFC_Niagara]

The whole "wait for his 5 years to be up" is a foolhardy comment. In ANY industry, regardless if you are an employee or a contract worker, it is your ONGOING performance that determines whether you continue to be employed. Nobody waits until the end to fire someone who so obviously should have been fired partway through his contract.

And while we are at it, Mo technically did not "have" 5 years. If that were the case, his original contract would have taken him to the team's fifth season. His contract was up this year. It was just recently renewed. Being that he could not have possibly been renewed over the team's on-pitch results, the only remaining answer is that he was rewarded for making TFC/MLSE money, which is boneheaded since Mo didn't have anything to do with it, Paul B, the staff and the supporters had more to do with TFC's healthy $ position than Month did save for the Edu deal. But it pretty much shows where MLSE's priorities really lie.

Wait for the 5 years? Who does that? Who hires a contractor who promises to build a house in a year and six months into it doesn't even have the foundation down and the homeowner says "Bah...he's got six more months!" ??? That's bad business, bad management, just bad. Smart owners would fire that contractor, our collection of geniuses decide to give him more time. :rolleyes:

Ok, that's your opinion. I subscribe to the theory that if I have given a contractor 1 year to build my house, if he can build it, and build it well in 6 months then great. At the end of the year in my house is not built, i'll sue him and get a new contractor. The bottom line is that I will honoured my word and so when I need a new contractor they will want to work for me as I will be seen as a fair and reasonable employer. To say in ANY industry is foolhardy. Project managers are given deadlines and terms to have things finished. If they don't have things done at the end of the deadline then they are finished.

I just thank my lucky stars that Paul B. reads most of the garbage posted on here and laughs, I mean, I do realize everyone on here is a qualified GM but still. :rolleyes:

[Wagner]

keep Mo strictly for the MLS drafts and trades with other teams, but get a real coach who doesn't answer to him.

As long as the coach is under the 'director of soccer', there will be conflicts.

What He said!!!

[FluSH]

Do you really believe he is the best drafter or trader in the league? Do you not think that someone else could have picked Mo Edu #1 and Sam Cronin #2?

Positives

Yes, VPjr has a point... it doesn't take too much skill to pick Edu @ #1... but it does take balls to sell him back to your old club (Rangers) and get $5 Million for his head when we all thought he was tanking it on the field... to me that was a great business move!

So... Selling Edu for $5Million = GREAT MOVE

Now we move to the other obvious "great" moves by Mo... the first one is DeRo... arguably DeRo is one of the top 10 best players in the MLS... singing DeRo is the equivalent in my books of signing Dwayne Wade in the NBA.

So... Signing of DeRo = GREAT MOVE

JDG was also supposed to be another great move (according to all the supporters who were goo goo ga ga over JDG). In my opinion, I think Mo's decision here was influenced by the supporters and the management around him... I don't believe for the slightest bit that Mo Johnston watched tape after tape of JDG and decided he was a good fit for the team. I believe the hype around the supporter boards followed by 'yes men' around him probably convinced Mo that at the very least, the JDG signing would be a positive within the supporters therefore securing his job. In my opinion the JDG signing will be mediocre for this club but that's another topic all together. What matters is that Mo Johnston got us a DP (ringer cough cough) at a crucial point in our playoff run... Someone who doesn't want to aggressively pursue a post-season wouldn't have done this.

So... I'll place the JDG signing = GOOD MOVE for the effort to get us into the post season.

NEGATIVES

The cost of the JDG signing and the word snake. If this was a business case, Mo Johnston would be applauded for beign a shrewd business man... The promises, promises, promises... unfortunately you can't tell all the girls you are in love with them and take them all to the prom... However, it looks like Mo did whisper a few sweet nothings into the ears of some, and left them stranded in the rain... what can you say? Your mom should have told you of men like Mo... Should a professional player do his job and play regardless... I think so... It's live and learn... however are some players holding grudges and work-to-rule attitudes... hmm if this is the case then we have a serious problem. The JDG signing exposed a lot of the hard business tactics that Mo has been accused of… whether true or not it has left many people wondering…

Anyhow I don’t want to ramble on so I’ll summarize the rest:

Successes
Guevara – (Big Gamble... bringing him back from Honduras after he went AWOL on his previous club and when many of us thought this was a crazy move to begin... with given his reputation around the league)
Nana – The Future
Frei – Also The Future
OB White – (Huge Gamble that will payoff… he is still in my books one of the few who is still hungry)
Dichio – nuff said
DeRo – as stated earlier


Flops
Serioux – maybe it was the injuries, I don’t know… but certainly I expected more from this native son who was granted the opportunity to shine before his home crowd.
Garcia – WTF?
Velez – hmmm he came with a good record from the USL… but he didn’t work out here.
Chad Barrett – love him for his effort, but hate him for his end results… it didn’t turnout
Vitti – WTF x 2! We have all seen glimpses of skill in Vitti, and I am sure he will be great in some club out there… but it’s not here in TFC.

Now looking at the above I still have to say that Mo has done well, but unfortunately the snake issues have to do more with the $$$ some of these professional players are getting over others than anything else…

So... in conclusion... I voted No we still need him. He is not going anywhere, and we might as well work this shit out together... whether you like it or not. We are fools to think that a supporter revolt would phaze him... the man was getting death threats in Scotland FFS! What are we going to do?! Some banners?

When you can't beat them... join them.

[Roogsy]

Ok, that's your opinion. I subscribe to the theory that if I have given a contractor 1 year to build my house, if he can build it, and build it well in 6 months then great. At the end of the year in my house is not built, i'll sue him and get a new contractor. The bottom line is that I will honoured my word and so when I need a new contractor they will want to work for me as I will be seen as a fair and reasonable employer. To say in ANY industry is foolhardy. Project managers are given deadlines and terms to have things finished. If they don't have things done at the end of the deadline then they are finished.

I just thank my lucky stars that Paul B. reads most of the garbage posted on here and laughs, I mean, I do realize everyone on here is a qualified GM but still. :rolleyes:

Thank god you are not running anything. I have many clients who are homebuilders and have built a house myself, your opinion on how to manage contractors is beyond laughable.

If a house is supposed to take a year to build and because of contractor ineptness or procrastination, he has to do it in 6 months, there is no way the quality of that house is something anyone would want to live in, that's just common sense.

It's obvious you don't work in a "project management" environment. Anyone who has knows that projects have targets and goals in between the final product. Managers that oversee these projects set these goals to make sure things happen on time, keep costs inline and to keep quality control. If these interim goals are not met, people are held accountable and many times fired before the "end". So your example of "project management" falls pretty flat when it is truly applied because Mo has had no accountability in the interim like a project manager would, and now that his contract was indeed up...without any discernible progress other than having made money off the Edu deal...he was given a renewal.

5 years and in all likelihood the best we can hope for is by the 5th year hopefully we can make the playoffs if we are lucky. In the MLS! Wow...what ability! Man are you an apologist for ineptitude.

[MUFC_Niagara]

^^great post FluSH....thanks for being rational and outlining the positives too!

[Roogsy]

Flops
Serioux – maybe it was the injuries, I don’t know… but certainly I expected more from this native son who was granted the opportunity to shine before his home crowd.
Garcia – WTF?
Velez – hmmm he came with a good record from the USL… but he didn’t work out here.
Chad Barrett – love him for his effort, but hate him for his end results… it didn’t turnout
Vitti – WTF x 2! We have all seen glimpses of skill in Vitti, and I am sure he will be great in some club out there… but it’s not here in TFC.

Flushie...you've overlooked a lot more failings that would indeed skew the balance quite a bit more.

[Whoop]

Cronin over Omar Gonzalez? Is that a push?

Trading Buddle?
Trading Tyrone Marshall and Dunivant without getting a replacement first?
Laurent Robert?

...

[MUFC_Niagara]

Thank god you are not running anything. I have many clients who are homebuilders and have built a house myself, your opinion on how to manage contractors is beyond laughable.

If a house is supposed to take a year to build and because of contractor ineptness or procrastination, he has to do it in 6 months, there is no way the quality of that house is something anyone would want to live in, that's just common sense.

It's obvious you don't work in a "project management" environment. Anyone who has knows that projects have targets and goals in between the final product. Managers that oversee these projects set these goals to make sure things happen on time, keep costs inline and to keep quality control. If these interim goals are not met, people are held accountable and many times fired before the "end". So your example of "project management" falls pretty flat when it is truly applied because Mo has had no accountability in the interim like a project manager would, and now that his contract was indeed up...without any discernible progress other than having made money off the Edu deal...he was given a renewal.

5 years and in all likelihood the best we can hope for is by the 5th year hopefully we can make the playoffs if we are lucky. In the MLS! Wow...what ability! Man are you an apologist for ineptitude.

Well, my house was built in 6 months and its of great quality, don't quit your day job.

I would suggest that you apply for the GM position. You're the smartest person on here and clearly more than qualified than Mo Johnston to run Toronto FC. If not the GM than coach. Your years of professional playing success and coaching success would certainly qualify you. Now, you might competition from all of the other qualified GM and coaching prospects on this particular message board, BUT, you love to argue so I am sure you could persuade them to hire you. I'd be particularly worried about the guy who posted his off season solution was for us to go down to the airport and spit on the player, but, I think its your overall experience managing football clubs that will come through for you.

So, get that resume together. Paul, if you read this...expect a resume tomorrow morning.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to go ask Mo for financial planning advice.

[Roogsy]

Pfft...Paul B can't afford me.

And it's quite obvious you are either intentionally or unintentionally missing the point. I didn't say a house can't be built in 6 months and if that is understood, then your comprehension skills are severely lacking.

Nice job setting up the strawman argument though... :rolleyes: the ultimate tool when logic fails you.

If I am coming across as thinking I am "smarter" than everyone, you are certainly coming across as thinking you are a better "supporter" than everyone else, since for days you have been criticizing, not just mine, but almost everyone elses reaction to this failure of a season.

I suppose you will be running for president of RPB to show us all how it's done?

[Roogsy]

Cronin over Omar Gonzalez? Is that a push?

Trading Buddle?
Trading Tyrone Marshall and Dunivant without getting a replacement first?
Laurent Robert?

...

How about these names?

Welsh
Ruiz
Samuel
Nagamura
Esky
Reda

And those are just the players. When you look at the capabilities of this team...the analysis gets even worse. For example, did you know that Robbo is one of our top ten goal scorers of TFC's short history? 3 goals in 3 seasons makes you a top goal scorer for Toronto...incredible.

[Whoop]

Just saw the interviews for the first time.

Mo looks like a deer caught in the headlights.

This guy inspires no confidence. Doesn't "sound" like he has a plan... or is that the same plan as after year 1?

I think people are confusing criticism of Mo as not supporting your team.

That's not the case.

I can talk about having plans and how to carry them out... been there, done that, still doing it. But I won't get into it... those who know me can ask me.

This guy does not inspire confidence. And when you don't inspire confidence, the guys below you are fucked.

[wzhxvy]

sorry Flush but Mo does not get the credit for Dero. Dero was gifted to him by Dero demanding to move, and Houston and the league facilitating the transaction. They came to MO...he didnt go to them. People make out MO like some genius trader for this deal...he just got lucky because Dero wanted to come home and no one was willing to pay Dero the money we were.

[wzhxvy]

Just saw the interviews for the first time.

Mo looks like a deer caught in the headlights.

This guy inspires no confidence. Doesn't "sound" like he has a plan... or is that the same plan as after year 1?

I think people are confusing criticism of Mo as not supporting your team.

That's not the case.

I can talk about having plans and how to carry them out... been there, done that, still doing it. But I won't get into it... those who know me can ask me.

This guy does not inspire confidence. And when you don't inspire confidence, the guys below you are fucked.

Amen brother

[Whoop]

Robbo is one of our top ten goal scorers of TFC's short history? 3 goals in 3 seasons makes you a top goal scorer for Toronto...incredible.

How about the fact the DeRo is tied for first and Barrett is tied for 3rd?

[MUFC_Niagara]

Pfft...Paul B can't afford me.

And it's quite obvious you are either intentionally or unintentionally missing the point. I didn't say a house can't be built in 6 months and if that is understood, then your comprehension skills are severely lacking.

Nice job setting up the strawman argument though... :rolleyes: the ultimate tool when logic fails you.

If I am coming across as thinking I am "smarter" than everyone, you are certainly coming across as thinking you are a better "supporter" than everyone else, since for days you have been criticizing, not just mine, but almost everyone elses reaction to this failure of a season.

I suppose you will be running for president of RPB to show us all how it's done?

You said a good house can't be built in 6 months. I countered that. I have said time and time again, I don't care how people support the team or criticize them. But when 5,000 Firo Mo or Fire Cummins threads are started through the season, it gets rediculous. It's a broken record on here and its by armchair generals who are criticizing people and saying nasty stupid thing about people that hold far more qualification. Like guys, there's a reason why we aren't managing football clubs. I'm not saying don't say what you think, but posting shit like "Cummins, get on that plane and never come back, or, Mo, get the fuck out!" That's real insightful. FluSH's post just above this one is what we need. He laid down Mo's strong points and his flaws. That's been my point. As for the last point, RPB president....lol....this group would never be the same.

[Roogsy]

You said a good house can't be built in 6 months.

Quote me where I said that.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Thank god you are not running anything. I have many clients who are homebuilders and have built a house myself, your opinion on how to manage contractors is beyond laughable.

If a house is supposed to take a year to build and because of contractor ineptness or procrastination, he has to do it in 6 months, there is no way the quality of that house is something anyone would want to live in, that's just common sense.

It's obvious you don't work in a "project management" environment. Anyone who has knows that projects have targets and goals in between the final product. Managers that oversee these projects set these goals to make sure things happen on time, keep costs inline and to keep quality control. If these interim goals are not met, people are held accountable and many times fired before the "end". So your example of "project management" falls pretty flat when it is truly applied because Mo has had no accountability in the interim like a project manager would, and now that his contract was indeed up...without any discernible progress other than having made money off the Edu deal...he was given a renewal.

5 years and in all likelihood the best we can hope for is by the 5th year hopefully we can make the playoffs if we are lucky. In the MLS! Wow...what ability! Man are you an apologist for ineptitude.

Quoted, stating that the quality would be poor and that no one would want to live in it. But argue it, some how you are going to try and spin it.

[SoccMan]

I never liked him from day one, I can't explain why I did not like him from the start I just didn't. However, the final straw came this year when he let go our only real center back Marshall go and never found a decent replacement. I will and can never forgive him for that. The reason we are not in the playoffs is the simple fact that we had no one in the back that was capable of organizing it and bringing stability back there, when Marshall left and no one came in to replace him, that was the day our season was doomed. Mo has to go, this team is a mess because of one man, and until he is gone this team will continue to be a mess.

[Whoop]

I never liked him from day one, I can't explain why I did not like him from the start I just didn't.

LOL... I think a lot of people have said that.

He's a shyster.

[Roogsy]

Quoted, stating that the quality would be poor and that no one would want to live in it.


I see...so the part where the house is SUPPOSED to take a year is irrelevant and means absolutely nothing with regards to the point of building a house in 6 months? Because every home on the planet is the same and takes the same amount of time. Selective reading doesn't work Tim...it's pretty obvious. Like I said, I don't know if it's intentional, but you are certainly twisting what I said to try to mean something it certainly doesn't.

Your claim is that I said a house can't be built in six months. Your own quote shows this to be untrue. I said a house that was supposed to take a year can't be built in six months. You said your house was built in six months...was it supposed to take a year? I highly doubt it. There is a difference. If you can't pick it up...then maybe I understand why you think differently than most other people on this board. Suffice to say...I won't be hiring you to build any houses for me so while I may consider submitting my resume to TFC...I'd recommend you not submit yours to me or anyone else building a house.

[MUFC_Niagara]

:rolleyes:
I see...so the part where the house is SUPPOSED to take a year is irrelevant and means absolutely nothing with regards to the point of building a house in 6 months? Because every home on the planet is the same and takes the same amount of time. Selective reading doesn't work Tim...it's pretty obvious. Like I said, I don't know if it's intentional, but you are certainly twisting what I said to try to mean something it certainly doesn't.

Your claim is that I said a house can't be built in six months. Your own quote shows this to be untrue. I said a house that was supposed to take a year can't be built in six months. You said your house was built in six months...was it supposed to take a year? I highly doubt it. There is a difference. If you can't pick it up...then maybe I understand why you think differently than most other people on this board. Suffice to say...I won't be hiring you to build any houses for me so while I may consider submitting my resume to TFC...I'd recommend you not submit yours to me or anyone else building a house.


If a house is supposed to take a year to build and because of contractor ineptness or procrastination, he has to do it in 6 months, there is no way the quality of that house is something anyone would want to live in, that's just common sense.


You said a good house can't be built in 6 months.

:rolleyes:. Anyway, (edited for a friend). Honestly, to say you come across as smug is an understatment. I'm sure a lot of people don't like me, and I know the same amount share my feeling of you. So at this point I am going to put you on ignore, I suggest you do the same for me.

Edit: apparently you can't ignore mods.

[FluSH]

How about these names?

Welsh
Ruiz
Samuel
Nagamura
Esky
Reda


Comeon... didn't Mo have to choose the left overs from an unrestricted list of other teams in season 1?... Ruiz was just a filler from some other trade that was always my impression... Nagamura is actually doing well in Chivas... so that's a Cunningham in my opinion...

and about the goal scoring... fcuk me for chosing a DM as our DP... but these boards were salivating for it.

[Dirk Diggler]

Comeon... didn't Mo have to choose the left overs from an unrestricted list of other teams in season 1?... Ruiz was just a filler from some other trade that was always my impression... Nagamura is actually doing well in Chivas... so that's a Cunningham in my opinion...

and about the goal scoring... fcuk me for chosing a DM as our DP... but these boards were salivating for it.

I don't think JDG was signed because people on this board wanted him here.

[FluSH]

I don't think JDG was signed because people on this board wanted him here.

I'm not saying this entirely...

but,

I'll take a great explination on why we need a DM as a DP when our scoring woes continue year after year...

[Dirk Diggler]

I'm not saying this entirely...

but,

I'll take a great explination on why we need a DM as a DP when our scoring woes continue year after year...

That is just Mo being Mo ... stuffing the midfield tighter than a thanksgiving turkey while having literally no wing players and, for all intents and purposes, no strikers.

Also, in regards to JDG, I really do have to wonder why he was the only one pursued all year long as a potential DP player. You have to wonder what else Mo might have cooking in the background aside from signing as many clients from that Barry Mclean guy as possible. I have to say, there have been a lot of completely incompetent General Mangers in this city but I don't remember any of them being accused of having such ulterior motives in terms of player signings.

[FluSH]

That is just Mo being Mo ... stuffing the midfield tighter than a thanksgiving turkey while having literally no wing players and, for all intents and purposes, no strikers.


Man, I don't give Mo that much credit... I don't think he has the slightiest clue about Canadian Soccer players, and in particular Canadians playing abroad...

[Cashcleaner]

I said it years ago, was shot down on this board, and will say it again - Mo has to Go.

Years ago? Like how many? Two? Three?

You were rightly shot down if that's the case. Putting together a contending MLS team from scratch takes more than a season. And some could reasonably argue it takes more than two. Unfortunately for Mo, many of us do not think it should take four.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Years ago? Like how many? Two? Three?

You were rightly shot down if that's the case. Putting together a contending MLS team from scratch takes more than a season. And some could reasonably argue it takes more than two. Unfortunately for Mo, many of us do not think it should take four.

well said

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I'm not sure if it's been said yet, but I really, really doubt that, among other things, allowing 15 goals in the last 15 minutes of games in a 30-game season can be blamed upon a general manager. A 5-0 loss to end the season... Why are people reluctant to place any of the blame for that on the players? Obviously it was Mo who put this team together, but in the end, the game is played on the pitch and these players as a team haven't played to their full potential. Maybe a new coach can get more out of them, but aside from De Ro, nobody really seems to be giving 100%.

[MUFC_Niagara]

I'm not sure if it's been said yet, but I really, really doubt that, among other things, allowing 15 goals in the last 15 minutes of games in a 30-game season can be blamed upon a general manager. A 5-0 loss to end the season... Why are people reluctant to place any of the blame for that on the players? Obviously it was Mo who put this team together, but in the end, the game is played on the pitch and these players as a team haven't played to their full potential. Maybe a new coach can get more out of them, but aside from De Ro, nobody really seems to be giving 100%.

I agree, late goals in the final 15 mins in the major issue. Give us those points back and we are challenging for the top of the table. That is down to concentration levels and the players NOT wanting to lose or draw. If we can correct that one issue alone, we'll be in great shape!

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

....that being said, I'm not letting Mo off the hook. Just saying this ALL isn't down to him, which is what this thread's first post seems to suggest.

It's not going to all go away if we fire Mo.

[olegunnar]

I agree, late goals in the final 15 mins in the major issue. Give us those points back and we are challenging for the top of the table. That is down to concentration levels and the players NOT wanting to lose or draw. If we can correct that one issue alone, we'll be in great shape!

You're the last person I'd have expected to pull out the scouse calculator.

If we had scored at this time, or had beaten this team or of the game was 75 minutes, we'd be champions!

I think we're all entitled to our opinions (your rosey outlook too) and that the "you're not a manager" or "you should send your resume to Paul B" stuff is off the mark.

Are the guys on FoxNews who criticize Obama 24/7 former presidents?
Is Fergie a licensed referee?
All the majority of journos and commentators former players?

No...but they have something to add about the performance of the persons and people they are critquing.

I don't think it's outside the realm of rational thought to have someone see what's gone on the past 3 years and come to the conclusion that all is not well.

[rocker]

Last I checked, not all teams gave up 15 goals in the final 15 minutes of games.

I don't think goal distribution through the 90 minutes is random... or that it's simply a product of which players you sign. There's a reason LA had so many late goals for, and that they tied so many games in the early season.... coaching. Ruud Gillitt to Bruce arena was like night and day.

[Oldtimer]

A DM would be fine provided we had a goal scorer for him to feed the ball to.

[FluSH]

sorry Flush but Mo does not get the credit for Dero. Dero was gifted to him by Dero demanding to move, and Houston and the league facilitating the transaction. They came to MO...he didnt go to them. People make out MO like some genius trader for this deal...he just got lucky because Dero wanted to come home and no one was willing to pay Dero the money we were.

Then why in the world is DeRo talking about being coaxed by Mo Johnston and the "You will get DP money" fiasco....

If you come to me... and I am Mo... I got you in my hands... you just showed me your poker hand... I wouldn't be promising you DP money...

I'm just trying to put the pieces together here...

[FluSH]

....that being said, I'm not letting Mo off the hook. Just saying this ALL isn't down to him, which is what this thread's first post seems to suggest.

It's not going to all go away if we fire Mo.


Exactly... these are my sentiments. However, I'm pretty sure that Mo is aware the next season is do or die... there is no question in my mind about this. If he expects to have a job te 4th year will have to be succesful...

[Section 117]

Bottom line who constructed this team?

Who said at last year's end of season press confrence we need a CB, Winger and a Striker? I thought they were replaying last years new confrence.

[koryo]

I agree, late goals in the final 15 mins in the major issue. Give us those points back and we are challenging for the top of the table. That is down to concentration levels and the players NOT wanting to lose or draw. If we can correct that one issue alone, we'll be in great shape!

I look beyond that Tim, and too often I saw a team that was unable, more to the point unwilling, to play together. The number of mistakes we saw this season (that you'd expect in Sunday league) and a steadfast refusal to do much more than route one it... I've thought for awhile that there's something very wrong in that dressing room.

No proof, just a hunch.

But then it's chicken and egg isn't it? Nothing like stringing a few wins together to create harmony, is there?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

^ That's an excellent point. It feels like deja vu. We still have the same holes. The thing is, I bet you if we let Vitti, Barrett and Gerba go to other MLS sides they'd pull a Casey/Cunningham and start scoring just for fun.

And I'd like a coach who can instill some discipline and confidence in a side... Capello, anyone?

[Fort York Redcoat]

I said Mo should stay. I stand by the 5 year plan just like I believe in seeing players and coaches out till the season is over. I also believe it doesn't take that long to win the MLS cup under the right circumstances.

So what if it takes longer than that to get it right when I've seen nothing but improvement year after year. People have different standards and expectations every year. For almost every wrong move one can find the good intentions for that failed attempt. I apologize sincerely for any hope presented in this post.

Now on with the deluge of bile and vitriol.

[Fort York Redcoat]

But then it's chicken and egg isn't it? Nothing like stringing a few wins together to create harmony, is there?

I too remember the first games after Carver leaving. We can hope to see the same reaction when they play for their new new manager.

[Section 117]

I voted he must go. He has handed out horrible contracts built a team of CM this isn't FIFA 10 you can play 6 CM and get away with it. NO experienced CB. No proven strikers

My reason that he has to go is that TFC was new first year couldn't get a ticket, year two struggled for tickets but still pretty hard, this past year I couldn't give away tickets. The novelty is starting to wear off folks. If we wait for Mo's 5 year plan we might not have the 20,000 in the stands.

This city only support winners with the exception of the Leafs, and if TFC does not start playing quality football and winning on the field it is only a matter of time before BMO has 10K - 15K at a gme.

[FluSH]

^^^
That's a pretty good point...

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

TBH, what I want is one guy managing the team on and off the pitch. I'm pretty disillusioned with the technical director and head coach model overall. Only the coach knows what players he really needs. Who remembers the rumours of conflict between Carver and Mo, that they disagreed on which players to sign?

[Fort York Redcoat]

^I agree but it seems it will be our next manager that gets the dual role.

[felipe]

I voted No.

For two reasons...

1) I think he's done a good job finding talent - I don't think its easy to get quality players in here for nothing. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty positive that every transfer has to go through MLS; he can't just go out and buy a quality centre back - he has to go find one on the cheap.

His drafting record has been very good - and his trading record is very good. There are a lot of short term memory loss guys on this board complaining about guys like Buddle, Cunny, Marshall going on to greater heights after leaving here; but they weren't too shit hot when they were here. Mo did his job and looked for replacements when it was clear that they weren't gonna cut it. Unfortunatley his replacements weren't too shit hot either.

But to a very real extent, he has to operate with his hands tied, because of MLS rules.

(Pure speculation - but maybe Carver really quit because Mo finally found him a proper centre back, willing to come here, available for a nominal (200k?) transfer fee, and MLS refused to sanction it. I'd believe that a coach used to real standards, be it Euro or South American, would quit over that, when coupled with ref issues, not reconising int'l transfer dates, and all the rest of it.)

no matter how you slice it, he's worked very hard looking for guys, bringing in countless trialists from all over the world, all year long, for three years. (I probably wouldn't have had them training with the starters - but when you got 18 players, its hard not too.)

Yeah, we got 6 centre mids and little else, but I'm sure his rational is to grab top talent, any talent, when it becomes available - because its pretty hard to find.

Now, we got grass, and a lot of these guys that didn't want to come in because of the turf - now presumably will. I know we would have been a lot better with O'Brien Huckerby or Dickov.

And secondly, more importantly, I really don't know if we'd be able to get anyone better. To me, thats a real concern. I don't know why everyone thinks Toronto is the top of everyone's choice to work. Given the choice, I know I'd rather live and work in San Jose or Houston.

I don't like him either; he seems snakey to me too - but then again I'm sure I wouldn't like most people in his profession. I'm sure most GM's are used car salesman types.

I don't like that he seems to show no loyalty to his guys - and ships them out or cuts them at random. But that's sports in today's world. Unfortunatley. And that could just be a fan's perception, and not reality. Maybe Sutton wanted out, maybe Dichio wanted out. How the hell would I know?

All in all, he's done a pretty good job - one more point this year, and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[MUFC_Niagara]

I look beyond that Tim, and too often I saw a team that was unable, more to the point unwilling, to play together. The number of mistakes we saw this season (that you'd expect in Sunday league) and a steadfast refusal to do much more than route one it... I've thought for awhile that there's something very wrong in that dressing room.

No proof, just a hunch.

But then it's chicken and egg isn't it? Nothing like stringing a few wins together to create harmony, is there?

I don't disagree with you, but I think the central issue is still giving up those late goals. The key is what lead to it? Lack of concentration? Disconnect in the locker room? Coaching? Tactics? That is what Mo gets paid for. It's his job to fix it. If he can do it he'll keep his job, if not then he'll be fired. It's that simple.

[ManUtd4ever]

I voted no simply because I don't think MoJo can be judged fairly based on the results of this past season. Carver's abrupt departure left a void that was difficult to fill at the time given the circumstances and I maintain my belief that a solid coach with tactical and motivational skills would have guided TFC into the playoffs even with the deficiencies of the roster. MoJo deserves one more season to solidify the roster and have an experienced coach at the helm in order to be evaluated accurately...

[Whoop]

TBH, what I want is one guy managing the team on and off the pitch. I'm pretty disillusioned with the technical director and head coach model overall. Only the coach knows what players he really needs. Who remembers the rumours of conflict between Carver and Mo, that they disagreed on which players to sign?

It depends on the team.

If the coach is a strong personality he'll probably clash with the technical director and/or he's given both roles outright.

Both models work and work well. It just depends on the the team structure.

I think with the MLS you're probably better off giving the two roles to one guy.

[felipe]

The reason IMO why we gave up all those late goals is simply becasue the players weren't up to it. Some mentally and some skill wise, and perhaps some through lack of experience.

When the other team turned up the pressure, they simply weren't able to cope. I don't think its a coaching thing or a manager thing, I don't think you know if you have a 'champion' within a player until you put him in that position.

Now, I do see the argument for it being a coaching responsibility to put the confidence into the player so he is able to cope with the pressure - and in fact embrace it and look forward to it, and to actually play better with the game on the line (as the great ones do - like DeRo does).

But the simple fact is, many players just can't step it up - at all levels - they don't have it in them. And I think we saw evidence of that this year.

It really only takes one player's one blown assignment for a goal to happen at this level; and on occasion, we saw half of the team crumble in the face of adversity or stepped up pressure.

It's no mystery to me that we blew all those points.

It comes from within the player.

[jloome]

I don't disagree with you, but I think the central issue is still giving up those late goals. The key is what lead to it? Lack of concentration? Disconnect in the locker room? Coaching? Tactics? That is what Mo gets paid for. It's his job to fix it. If he can do it he'll keep his job, if not then he'll be fired. It's that simple.

Apparently not, or he'd have been fired already.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

It depends on the team.

If the coach is a strong personality he'll probably clash with the technical director and/or he's given both roles outright.

Both models work and work well. It just depends on the the team structure.

I think with the MLS you're probably better off giving the two roles to one guy.
Actually... I don;t remember any cases where the GM and COach as separate work well... in the HYSTORY of SOCCER.... ALL team have a head coach who tells what players he wants... the president only approves or disaproves a move. The coach may ahve aids and scauts who give them hints at good players but at the end of the day the head coach decideds what players he needs and when... this IS NOT hockey or basketball...

[MUFC_Niagara]

Apparently not, or he'd have been fired already.

Not necessarily. Maybe the problem was identified as Cummins and other personal. Antyhing else we MAY think about Mo or the team is speculation. Unless someone here has inside knowledge of the TFC FO.

[Whoop]

Actually... I don;t remember any cases where the GM and COach as separate work well... in the HYSTORY of SOCCER.... ALL team have a head coach who tells what players he wants... the president only approves or disaproves a move. The coach may ahve aids and scauts who give them hints at good players but at the end of the day the head coach decideds what players he needs and when... this IS NOT hockey or basketball...

Of course with guys like SAF and Mourinho, they get the guys they want.

But for a lot of other successful clubs, successful club but probably not with the pull of a SAF or Mourinho, the coach tells the technical director I want a player like player x see what you can do. You figure with those clubs, the atmosphere isn't so poisoned that the director and coach can't talk.

I know with the overseas clubs I follow that's the case. With Benfica, Rui Costa gets the players and Jorge Jesus is the coach. I'm sure the coach talks to Costa about the moves he's making for and against. Same with Ajax where Danny Blind is the Technical Manager and Martin Jol is the coach. Benfica is currently in 1st and Ajax is fighting for 1st place in their league.

But there are other teams like Barcelona where the Director of Football is Txiki Begiristain and the Head coach is Josep Guardiola (though I'm sure Laporta sticks his nose in their business)

And I'm sure at Bayern Munich, Uli Hoeness has more of a say than Louis van Gaal.

I'm sure others could give you more examples.

The point being both work. Naturally when it's two different people you hope that the communication is there.

It doesn't look like that was the case with TFC with Mo and John Carver and Mo with Chris Cummins.

[Beach_Red]

Actually... I don;t remember any cases where the GM and COach as separate work well... in the HYSTORY of SOCCER.... ALL team have a head coach who tells what players he wants... the president only approves or disaproves a move. The coach may ahve aids and scauts who give them hints at good players but at the end of the day the head coach decideds what players he needs and when... this IS NOT hockey or basketball...


It may not be hockey or basketball but even you have to admit MLS is not the kind of league where the coach can simply say what players he wants and then go get them from anywhere in the world.

The model is really much closer to the NFL which, it's true, has coaches making most of the player choices - from the pool of available players - and then a GM who has to negotiate with the agent, fit the salary under the cap, try and make a trade, draft them or whatever.

If all goes well, someday MLS may be like the other soccer leagues, but it has a ways to go.

[Beach_Red]

It doesn't look like that was the case with TFC with Mo and John Carver and Mo with Chris Cummins.

Of the many things Carver complained about, though, that wasn't one of them. He described the situation a few times exactly as you have above, where he identified the need and Mo tried to fill it (make your own jokes here). Carver said he made all the decisions about players on trials and it was probably Carver's connections that brought in Laurent Robert (which at first looked really good) and maybe some others (Ricketts?).

Of course, it could all be spin, who knows.

[olegunnar]

I wish we were like Dallas.
They fired their General manager today. Under whom they made the playoffs 2 out of his 4 years.
They will not replace him.
Instead they've created a new position, technical director, who will ASSIST, the coach

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=690664&cc=5901

[Roogsy]

I wish we were like Dallas.
They fired their General manager today. Under whom they made the playoffs 2 out of his 4 years.
They will not replace him.
Instead they've created a new position, technical director, who will ASSIST, the coach

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=690664&cc=5901


Bang on Dallas. MLSE take note. They may be incredibly amateurish in their marketing, but this team just did the right thing when it comes to the product on the pitch.

[Marco2K]

Well isnt that what we have now?

Excpet Mo wants to control everything. Mo just has to learn to take a back seat!

[wzhxvy]

Mo is not taking a back seat to anyone. Watch the press conference. He took credit for the Seattle game because that was the only time he was asked for input. Says it all folks. This guy is about taking all the credit and pointing the finger for all the blame...

[trane]

I wish we were like Dallas.
They fired their General manager today. Under whom they made the playoffs 2 out of his 4 years.
They will not replace him.
Instead they've created a new position, technical director, who will ASSIST, the coach

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=690664&cc=5901


That is how it shuold work, the coach needs to decide as to what type of players, or specific player he wants, and then have someone to help him get it done. This is how it seems to work on most Italian clubs. Sometimes there is discussion between the two, but there is little point in getting players the on field manager, is not interested in playing.

[TFC111]

That is how it shuold work, the coach needs to decide as to what type of players, or specific player he wants, and then have someone to help him get it done. This is how it seems to work on most Italian clubs. Sometimes there is discussion between the two, but there is little point in getting players the on field manager, is not interested in playing.

You are right. The new coach should have MLS experience and Mo should only go get players the coach has specifically asked for.

[Pachuco]

:rolleyes:





:rolleyes:. Anyway, (edited for a friend). Honestly, to say you come across as smug is an understatment. I'm sure a lot of people don't like me, and I know the same amount share my feeling of you. So at this point I am going to put you on ignore, I suggest you do the same for me.

Edit: apparently you can't ignore mods.

You are so wrong in your argument it's not even funny. I'm not referring to whether Mo should stay or go, I'm talking about Roogsie's statement, and your twist on what he said. If you can't even admit to being wrong about something as small as that, then I'm sure talking to you about anything else would be useless. Anyways, just wanted to say you are really way off on what Roggsie was saying.

Oh, I work with PMs every day of my life and my wife is a PM. Believe me, PMs get fired ALL THE TIME for being late on milestones. If they don't get fired, they are given a smaller project. So there, wrong again.

[trane]

This is quickly becoming a long off season. I am still hopefull for next year, but the hireing of the new manager is so huge, that it could change my whole view on this team, for better or worse.

[FluSH]

This is quickly becoming a long off season. I am still hopefull for next year, but the hireing of the new manager is so huge, that it could change my whole view on this team, for better or worse.

Well so far it hasn't been a popcorn popping off-season!

[s2cazz]

This is quickly becoming a long off season. I am still hopefull for next year, but the hireing of the new manager is so huge, that it could change my whole view on this team, for better or worse.
I nominate Trane for Manager... MLS cup in his first year guaranteed lol

[TFC07]

I wish we were like Dallas.
They fired their General manager today. Under whom they made the playoffs 2 out of his 4 years.
They will not replace him.
Instead they've created a new position, technical director, who will ASSIST, the coach

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=690664&cc=5901

Kudos to FC Dallas!

Anyway, what is MLSE thinking? They're ruining a good thing here by keeping Mo! I hope MLS steps in and get rid of Mo since MLSE aren't smart enough to do it themselves.

[Beach_Red]

Kudos to FC Dallas!

Anyway, what is MLSE thinking? They're ruining a good thing here by keeping Mo! I hope MLS steps in and get rid of Mo since MLSE aren't smart enough to do it themselves.

Will the league hire the replacement, too? How 'single-entity' do you want this thing?

[Hitcho]

^ ha ha! that gives new meaning to the idea of parity being king. the league hires all the coaches, pays all the players, selects all the teams, hires all the officials and takes all the gate monies and at the end of the season, everyone has 40 points and the same goal difference, goals scored, goals against, yellow cards, red cards, goals scored home and away and "official" attendance figures. Then everyone in the above list joins hands and sings songs as the Parity Cup is lifted triumphantly into the air in the middle fo the circle (although not too high to ensure parity of viewing angle for the shorter people).

[TFC07]

Will the league hire the replacement, too? How 'single-entity' do you want this thing?

The league will just recommend GM's to MLSE to hire.

BTW It's not uncommon for pro leagues in USA to do this (example, Toronto Raptors hiring of BC as a GM and Delvin as a commentator when Chuck left).

[jloome]

Interesting to see Ives Galarcep note that Philly Union boss Peter Nowak (the former DC boss) is "A man on a mission."

Interesting to see if his first-year squad is as competitive as Seattle's, and how that reflects on TFC's efforts.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I hope it puts MLSE/MO under pressure and I hope they are successful forcing MLSE to reevaluate our situation. Granted Seattle really has done something special, few (if any) other expansion teams have done what they have.

[Roogsy]

Except Chicago.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Except Chicago.

yeah, i was trying to think of others that had at least made it to playoffs, only chicago came to mind

[Beach_Red]

Except Chicago.

If you're going to count Chicago in the league's second year, why not count the team that won it in the first year, too?

How does RSL and San Jose reflect on TFC's efforts? I wish TFC was doing a lot better, but they are merely average as expansion teams go.

[Roogsy]

LOL! How old do you think MLS is?

After the contraction years, the new expansions teams have been Chivas, Real Salt Lake, us, San Jose and Seattle.

Only us and San Jose have not made the playoffs and we have a year on San Jose.

Chivas made the playoffs in their 2nd year.
Real, who WAS considered the worst, also did not make the playoffs their first 3 seasons, a record we have already tied.
San Jose is an iffy case, being that it is a franchise that has been re-born from a moved franchise.
Seattle...well...we already know what they have done.

Our only fellow "crappy" team really would be RSL, but they have never finished bottom of the league even in their expansion year (unlike TFC who did in our first year) and if we miss the playoffs in 2010, we will officially be the worst team in MLS history.

The fact that we are facing down the barrell of another record of futility (and we own enough already) is a testament to how poorly the team has been put together in a league where teams don't really have that much of a head start at all.

[Roogsy]

If you're going to count Chicago in the league's second year, why not count the team that won it in the first year, too?

Officially Chicago is an expansion team because they joined in the THIRD year (not second), and not in the first, and so by any definition they are an expansion team. A team involved in the first season would not qualify.


How does RSL and San Jose reflect on TFC's efforts? I wish TFC was doing a lot better, but they are merely average as expansion teams go.

Odd, my analysis seems to reflect underachievement as opposed to average achievement. I would say below average is more accurate. And with the kind of support that TFC has had since day one and the kind of money the team has made well ahead of projections, being below average is simply not acceptable at least in my view. This team has what they need to excel and surprise and instead it has underperformed and disappointed. It has wasted the momentum they had and now have to fight for every inch of respectability.

[Rudi]

Our only fellow "crappy" team really would be RSL, but they have never finished bottom of the league even in their expansion year (unlike TFC who did in our first year) and if we miss the playoffs in 2010, we will officially be the worst team in MLS history.
This is a bit disingenuous.

RSL never finished at the bottom of the league in year one only because Chivas entered the league at the same time. Both of those teams finished with less wins and points in their first year than TFC had in 2007, despite the benefit of having a fellow expansion team to play against at least twice (which TFC did not have).

Also, I'm not sure what criteria you're using to determine how TFC would "officially" be the worst team in MLS history, but I suppose missing the playoffs four years running may be it. I guess the use of the word "official" in this way irks me a bit, as I doubt any official measure would count TFC as the worst, given the many other ways to measure success/futility.

(Officially, the 1999 Metrostars and 2001 Tampa Bay Mutiny can each lay claim to worst in MLS history, dependent on different criteria).

I know I'm being pedantic, but had you said if we miss the playoffs in 2010, TFC would officially tie the San Jose Clash/Earthquakes (97-2000) for the longest streak without making the playoffs in MLS history it would be more accurate. Of course, we're currently tied with Colorado for the longest active playoffs-less streak, so they could beat us or join us in that category. ;)

[Roogsy]

LOL!

Damn...

There's no arguing facts. I demand them of others and you beat me at my own game.

Still...it's a horrible game we are playing. The basic point is that we are regularly toying with records of futility at this club, playoffs is just one more.

So yeah...we miss in 2010 and we tie other clubs for longest streak missing the playoffs. I will make a guess that Colorado makes the playoffs next year, I think they should have made it this year and I think they will in 2010. For me, the official part really just reflects the truth that the facts are indisputable and I am trying to hammer that point home.

The part that does irk me is this general complacency and acceptance that I see where people have accepted this arbitrary number of "5 years" as somehow being a reasonable figure as to when this team should start seeing some progress or competence. Who came up with this number? Just because Mo said he has a plan that takes 5 years? Why 5? Why not 3? 8? 10? Was this number pulled out of thin air? In a league where for the most part, making the playoffs has been achieved by pretty much every club how does this number factor in?

Crap...I am getting worked up. Screw you Rudi! :D

[Rudi]

LOL!

Damn...

There's no arguing facts. I demand them of others and you beat me at my own game.

Still...it's a horrible game we are playing. The basic point is that we are regularly toying with records of futility at this club, playoffs is just one more.

So yeah...we miss in 2010 and we tie other clubs for longest streak missing the playoffs. I will make a guess that Colorado makes the playoffs next year, I think they should have made it this year and I think they will in 2010. For me, the official part really just reflects the truth that the facts are indisputable and I am trying to hammer that point home.

The part that does irk me is this general complacency and acceptance that I see where people have accepted this arbitrary number of "5 years" as somehow being a reasonable figure as to when this team should start seeing some progress or competence. Who came up with this number? Just because Mo said he has a plan that takes 5 years? Why 5? Why not 3? 8? 10? Was this number pulled out of thin air? In a league where for the most part, making the playoffs has been achieved by pretty much every club how does this number factor in?

Crap...I am getting worked up. Screw you Rudi! :D
LOL :D

I think we both agree that this needs to end. Let's leave the futility to clubs like Colorado and the Red Bulls.

And I agree with you that a five year plan is way too long, and should not be accepted by any of us. The bright side is that most of the clubs with long playoffs-less streaks end said streaks with very strong showings. San Jose ended their record streak with an MLS Cup, with DeRo scoring the Golden Goal in the final. Columbus missed this playoffs three years running and won the double last year. DC United ended a three-year drought with a Supporters Shield. And so on.

In that case, let's hope history repeats itself.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, let's!

Those results are really what people mean by "5 year plans," though I don't think anyone ever uses the word "plan," they just pick that as the length of time it takes to build a team from scratch.

Chances are in the "interview procss" one of the questions MLSE asked prospective managers/coaches was, "How long do you think it will take to build a contender?"

Would anyone answer that with anything less than, "Five years," if they were hoping to get the job? We've all been through job interviews, we know how it works.

And, like any company, MLSE want to put as positive a spin on things as possible. So, they look at that stat about, "If games were 75 minutes," and see that holding the lead through the last 15 minutes of games would mean this team finishes 3rd and they claim that means the team has made great progress over three years and is headed in the right direction. Fixing that one thing is all they feel they need to do.

I guess it's better than if the team had never had the lead in games, or had never had the lead in the second half and so on. But still, not making the playoffs thsi year is robably much better for the team than squeaking in would have been. Look, now everyone admits changes need to be made, the coach needs to be experienced and there's work to be done.