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ua-kozak_TFC
10-26-2009, 09:02 PM
But Seattle SOUNDERS are in the Play-OFFs.... yea seattle the expansion team.
You say But they are not expansion team they have hystory, etc bla bla bla ... i challenge you to give name more than 25% of their current squad that played for their USL team... Now if we look at the first team... you chances are even smaller.
But ok I am going to ignore that will say that yes saettle took 100% players from their USL team ( which is considered an inferior league). and Hence they are not an expansion team. So our first year fuck up can be excused. Now everything would be fine and dundy if thi was 2007... unfortunately it isn't and you;d think by year 2 and most definetly by year 3 we would have an advantage over the expansion team... WRONG!
prediction: Seattle vs Crew final and seatle takes it all... this season.

Hitcho
10-26-2009, 09:05 PM
Looks like you've found your new favourite team. Go charm the sounders boards for a while instead if you're so down on TFC and what it has (not) achieved.

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:08 PM
But Seattle SOUNDERS are in the Play-OFFs.... yea seattle the expansion team.
You say But they are not expansion team they have hystory, etc bla bla bla ... i challenge you to give name more than 25% of their current squad that played for their USL team... Now if we look at the first team... you chances are even smaller.
But ok I am going to ignore that will say that yes saettle took 100% players from their USL team ( which is considered an inferior league). and Hence they are not an expansion team. So our first year fuck up can be excused. Now everything would be fine and dundy if thi was 2007... unfortunately it isn't and you;d think by year 2 and most definetly by year 3 we would have an advantage over the expansion team... WRONG!
prediction: Seattle vs Crew final and seatle takes it all... this season.

How many Canadians were they forced to play with again???

Hitcho
10-26-2009, 09:08 PM
How many Canadians were they forced to play with again???

Ha ha ha! I love the way you make that out to be a handicap dude!!! :canada:

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:09 PM
How many Canadians were they forced to play with again???

That is an irrelevant point. Year one that was an issue. It isn't in year 3. Or it shouldn't be and if it still is, it isn't the roster rules that is doing us in.

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:11 PM
Ha ha ha! I love the way you make that out to be a handicap dude!!! :canada:
Hasn't it been?

I'm still shocked JDG agreed to play in the MLS at his age, so maybe it will change but I think it's been an issue.

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:13 PM
That is an irrelevant point. Year one that was an issue. It isn't in year 3. Or it shouldn't be and if it still is, it isn't the roster rules that is doing us in.

There are far more quality american players out there than Canadian players, some may not like to hear that but there are, so to my mind being forced to play one over the other does make a difference.

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:21 PM
There are far more quality american players out there than Canadian players, some may not like to hear that but there are, so to my mind being forced to play one over the other does make a difference.


When you have filled your roster with DeRo, JDG, Sutton (now gone), Gerba, Brennan, Nana, Serioux...the CREAM of Canadian soccer...the Canadian roster rules should not have affected results. Unless we are willing to concede that Canadian soccer players are inferior to American ones? I don't believe that for a second. The roster rules did not do us in this year...it wasn't even a factor. Bringing up that point has no evidenciary value at all in my opinion.

Dirk Diggler
10-26-2009, 09:23 PM
We have two of the best Canadian players in the world playing for us who are better than at least 80% of US players ... how has that been a handicap?

Shakes McQueen
10-26-2009, 09:23 PM
OH GOOD ANOTHER THREAD COMPARING US TO THE SOUNDERS TO MAKE A POINT.

- Scott

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:24 PM
When you have filled your roster with DeRo, JDG, Sutton (now gone), Gerba, Brennan, Nana, Serioux...the CREAM of Canadian soccer...the Canadian roster rules should not have affected results. Unless we are willing to concede that Canadian soccer players are inferior to American ones? I don't believe that for a second. The roster rules did not do us in this year...it wasn't even a factor. Bringing up that point has no evidenciary value at all in my opinion.

I think the performance of each team's national squads will answer that question for you Roogsy.

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:25 PM
We have two of the best Canadian players in the world playing for us who are better than at least 80% of US players ... how has that been a handicap?

Dero and JDG aren't the issue......

Super
10-26-2009, 09:25 PM
OH GOOD ANOTHER THREAD COMPARING US TO THE SOUNDERS TO MAKE A POINT.

- Scott

The off-season has officially begun.

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:26 PM
Considering Canada made it to the Semi-Finals of the Gold Cup with almost this entire squad and no other team has national team players that have played together like this crew, I don't see how you can make this argument at all. The only point you are making is that Canadian soccer players are not good enough period. It's the only possible point you could be making!

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:31 PM
Considering Canada made it to the Semi-Finals of the Gold Cup with almost this entire squad and no other team has national team players that have played together like this crew, I don't see how you can make this argument at all. The only point you are making is that Canadian soccer players are not good enough period. It's the only possible point you could be making!

No the point I'm making is that the pool of Canadian talent isn't as deep as the Americans. I know people don't want to hear or believe that but it's true. The league imposing the quota does have an impact whether you chose to believe it or not is up to you.

Gerba is fucking useless BTW, no movement off the ball at all, everything has to be right at him!

prizby
10-26-2009, 09:34 PM
retarded...

seattle was able to get a proven MLS coach

thats the biggest difference

werewolf
10-26-2009, 09:35 PM
Gerba is fucking useless BTW, no movement off the ball at all, everything has to be right at him!

Do you want a list of useless American players we have had in the past 3 seasons?

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:36 PM
No the point I'm making is that the pool of Canadian talent isn't as deep as the Americans. I know people don't want to hear or believe that but it's true. The league imposing the quota does have an impact whether you chose to believe it or not is up to you.

Gerba is fucking useless BTW, no movement off the ball at all, everything has to be right at him!

Nobody is arguing that the depth is better in the American system. Their overall system is better, they have college kids to draw from AND they are a country ten times larger than ours.

But depth is not a valid argument either since practically HALF of our National team players on TFC! No other MLS team in the US has that kind of participation from the US national team. Therefore any point that raises the issue of the national team immediately rates the quality of the national team. Either these Canadian players are good enough or they are not, there is no other possible point you could be making, because switch jerseys and you practically have the national squad playing in front of the the fans week in and week out.

Depth will only be an issue once Vancouver and possibly Montreal start poaching players for their teams to meet the criteria.

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:41 PM
Do you want a list of useless American players we have had in the past 3 seasons?

I've watched them too so no I won't need that list. The point is Gerba wouldn't even have been a consideration if not fir his nationality.

The quota issue isn't the entire problem but it definitely doesn't help.

Quota
Bad coaches
Bad management (not addressing the back end)
Owners who don't give a shit about winning
plastic surface

I think that about covers it.

shaggingscot
10-26-2009, 09:43 PM
Nobody is arguing that the depth is better in the American system. Their overall system is better, they have college kids to draw from AND they are a country ten times larger than ours.

But depth is not a valid argument either since practically HALF of our National team players on TFC! No other MLS team in the US has that kind of participation from the US national team. Therefore any point that raises the issue of the national team immediately rates the quality of the national team. Either these Canadian players are good enough or they are not, there is no other possible point you could be making, because switch jerseys and you practically have the national squad playing in front of the the fans week in and week out.

Depth will only be an issue once Vancouver and possibly Montreal start poaching players for their teams to meet the criteria.

I said Dero and JDG weren't an issue, you can make your own determination about the rest.

Hitcho
10-26-2009, 09:43 PM
Roogs he has a point. We can;t just go out and say "i need a canadian left winger, there are plenty to choose from" whereas you can do so much more easily for an american equivalent. yes, we have soaked up large chunks of the CMNT, but what's left after that? the USMNT basically doesn't even play in MLS and there are still plenty to choose from. yes, more teams are after them, but the point is the players are there and can be traded for. with us, we take what we can get of the CMNT, and only in the positions that are available (did we really need anothe DCM as our DP?), and that's the well dried up.

To me, that's a difference worth noting.

there's also the fact that we can be placed over a barrell when we trade for canadian players from other MLS teams. so far, trader mo has avoided this and inf act we got De Ro for a steal, but sooner or later it's gonna happen. especially when Vanc and Mtl join the league and the bounty on the limited number of Canadian players goes up by a factor of three.

brad
10-26-2009, 09:44 PM
retarded...

seattle was able to get a proven MLS coach

thats the biggest difference

Actually, the biggest difference is that their owners care about the game. Ours just care about the bottom line.

mighty_torontofc_2008
10-26-2009, 09:44 PM
But Seattle SOUNDERS are in the Play-OFFs.... yea seattle the expansion team.
You say But they are not expansion team they have hystory, etc bla bla bla ... i challenge you to give name more than 25% of their current squad that played for their USL team... Now if we look at the first team... you chances are even smaller.
But ok I am going to ignore that will say that yes saettle took 100% players from their USL team ( which is considered an inferior league). and Hence they are not an expansion team. So our first year fuck up can be excused. Now everything would be fine and dundy if thi was 2007... unfortunately it isn't and you;d think by year 2 and most definetly by year 3 we would have an advantage over the expansion team... WRONG!
prediction: Seattle vs Crew final and seatle takes it all... this season.


Seattle is nothing special...they wont make the final, they wont make it past the first round...the won the US open cup and TFC won the Canadian Championship..They are not that much apart..OK they have Ljunberg and we have JDG or DeRo they win there.. they dont have to field a canadian strong team thats also in their favor..But TFC have a good core of players like Attakora, Frei, Edwards built for a good future,
Seattle? could very well be the worst team next year, New York fell hard this year so could Seattle next year. we do have long term goals for the team Seattle just wanted to survive and they did that. the Final

Houston V Los Angeles.....win the Galaxy winning 3-1..

Gazza_55
10-26-2009, 09:45 PM
retarded...

seattle was able to get a proven MLS coach

thats the biggest difference

And a decent general manager. And a Technical Director.

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:48 PM
Seattle is nothing special...they wont make the final, they wont make it past the first round...the won the US open cup and TFC won the Canadian Championship..They are not that much apart..OK they have Ljunberg and we have JDG or DeRo they win there.. they dont have to field a canadian strong team thats also in their favor..But TFC have a good core of players like Attakora, Frei, Edwards built for a good future,
Seattle? could very well be the worst team next year, New York fell hard this year so could Seattle next year. we do have long term goals for the team Seattle just wanted to survive and they did that. the Final

Houston V Los Angeles.....win the Galaxy winning 3-1..

The fact that you compared the US Open to the Canadian Championship speaks for itself.

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:49 PM
Roogs he has a point. We can;t just go out and say "i need a canadian left winger, there are plenty to choose from" whereas you can do so much more easily for an american equivalent. yes, we have soaked up large chunks of the CMNT, but what's left after that? the USMNT basically doesn't even play in MLS and there are still plenty to choose from. yes, more teams are after them, but the point is the players are there and can be traded for. with us, we take what we can get of the CMNT, and only in the positions that are available (did we really need anothe DCM as our DP?), and that's the well dried up.

To me, that's a difference worth noting.

there's also the fact that we can be placed over a barrell when we trade for canadian players from other MLS teams. so far, trader mo has avoided this and inf act we got De Ro for a steal, but sooner or later it's gonna happen. especially when Vanc and Mtl join the league and the bounty on the limited number of Canadian players goes up by a factor of three.

You made the same mistake he did, which is speak of the lack of depth of the Canadian system, which I did agree with.

So let's speak in specifics. Where exactly has the Canadian content rules affected us the most? Where has it weakened us?

Gazza_55
10-26-2009, 09:53 PM
Nobody is arguing that the depth is better in the American system. Their overall system is better, they have college kids to draw from AND they are a country ten times larger than ours.

But depth is not a valid argument either since practically HALF of our National team players on TFC! No other MLS team in the US has that kind of participation from the US national team. Therefore any point that raises the issue of the national team immediately rates the quality of the national team. Either these Canadian players are good enough or they are not, there is no other possible point you could be making, because switch jerseys and you practically have the national squad playing in front of the the fans week in and week out.

Depth will only be an issue once Vancouver and possibly Montreal start poaching players for their teams to meet the criteria.

Agree 100% Roogsy. And if Vancouver has a much better squad in year 1 or 2 then we have no excuses.

Hitcho
10-26-2009, 09:53 PM
You made the same mistake he did, which is speak of the lack of depth of the Canadian system, which I did agree with.

So let's speak in specifics. Where exactly has the Canadian content rules affected us the most? Where has it weakened us?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making Roogsy.

we are forced to draw a number of our players from a much shallower depth pool than the equivalent players are drawn from by a US based team in MLS. Because of that, you can;t approach the situation by saying "I need someone in position X, I'll get him from the Canadian pool". You have to say "what's available in the Canadian pool? Not much, so I'll take this guy, he;s the best player, even though he's not in the position I need".

That's a bit of a rough description, but you get the point. You take what's available, not what you need. That hurts any team. Is it really a coincidence that we're such an unbalanced side and we have to soak up good Canadian players just because they;re Canadian and good, regardless of position?

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 09:59 PM
It's a limitation yes. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But like i said in my first post, that is a problem in year 1. Where you haven't had the time to make changes, develop, trade, deal, scout etc. In year 3, if it's still a problem, then it's no longer the roster rules, you've had more than enough time to deal with it and develop a process. At this point, if this is causing major problems, then problem lies with the person dealing with it.

All teams have limitations. For some it's location, (who wants to play in Columbus?), for some it's the salary cap (LA continuously struggles with this with Becky and Landycakes on the same team), for us, it's our Canadian content rules. It's a bump we have to learn to deal with, and at this point it's no excuse.

Bruce Arena is a shining example of someone who has dealt with a difficult situation and instead of using it as an excuse, he has worked around it and with it.

Let's just say Mo is no Bruce Arena.

To just give a blanket statement that "Canadian content" is hurting us without any sort of evidence that backs that up, is weak. Especially when the "Canadian content" we have is a league MVP, a European calibre player, a young solid defensive player, an established, experienced MLS veteran etc.

Darlofletch
10-26-2009, 10:02 PM
Seattle is nothing special...they wont make the final, they wont make it past the first round...the won the US open cup and TFC won the Canadian Championship..They are not that much apart..OK they have Ljunberg and we have JDG or DeRo they win there.. they dont have to field a canadian strong team thats also in their favor..But TFC have a good core of players like Attakora, Frei, Edwards built for a good future,
Seattle? could very well be the worst team next year, New York fell hard this year so could Seattle next year. we do have long term goals for the team Seattle just wanted to survive and they did that. the Final

Houston V Los Angeles.....win the Galaxy winning 3-1..

two western conference teams making the final? genius.

TFC USA
10-26-2009, 10:03 PM
Mighty. :facepalm:

MUFC_Niagara
10-26-2009, 10:08 PM
Considering Canada made it to the Semi-Finals of the Gold Cup with almost this entire squad and no other team has national team players that have played together like this crew, I don't see how you can make this argument at all. The only point you are making is that Canadian soccer players are not good enough period. It's the only possible point you could be making!

LMAO....the gold cup....ok there Roogs. Talk to me when Canada does anything in WC qualifying. Man, you would argue the sky is orange, you love to argue. How can you honestly say our national team compares to the US.

Roogsy
10-26-2009, 10:09 PM
LMAO....the gold cup....ok there Roogs. Talk to me when Canada does anything in WC qualifying. Man, you would argue the sky is orange, you love to argue. How can you honestly say our national team compares to the US.

Comprehension is not your strong suit is it? Where did I say that?

Are you saying Canadian players are not good enough for MLS? THE MLS???

And I don't argue for the sake of arguing...I simply dislike statements that have no common sense and I will hold you accountable. If your statement has evidenciary value...then you shouldn't have any problems backing it up.

ua-kozak_TFC
10-26-2009, 10:10 PM
Actually, the biggest difference is that their owners care about the game. Ours just care about the bottom line.
DING DING DING!!! BINGO!

ua-kozak_TFC
10-26-2009, 10:12 PM
Seattle is nothing special...they wont make the final, they wont make it past the first round...the won the US open cup and TFC won the Canadian Championship..They are not that much apart..OK they have Ljunberg and we have JDG or DeRo they win there.. they dont have to field a canadian strong team thats also in their favor..But TFC have a good core of players like Attakora, Frei, Edwards built for a good future,
Seattle? could very well be the worst team next year, New York fell hard this year so could Seattle next year. we do have long term goals for the team Seattle just wanted to survive and they did that. the Final

Houston V Los Angeles.....win the Galaxy winning 3-1..
lol the difference is that in Canadian Championsleague there are only 3 teams... while in the US open cup there are lik 20... ANd if you take into account that Montreal put a C team and put the championsleague pretty much on a platter for us...

Pachuco
10-26-2009, 10:14 PM
Seattle is nothing special...they wont make the final, they wont make it past the first round...the won the US open cup and TFC won the Canadian Championship..They are not that much apart..OK they have Ljunberg and we have JDG or DeRo they win there.. they dont have to field a canadian strong team thats also in their favor..But TFC have a good core of players like Attakora, Frei, Edwards built for a good future,
Seattle? could very well be the worst team next year, New York fell hard this year so could Seattle next year. we do have long term goals for the team Seattle just wanted to survive and they did that. the Final

Houston V Los Angeles.....win the Galaxy winning 3-1..

Ridicolous statements. Where do you get such an intelligent argument such as thing one? I mean really? what makes you say that Seattle is going to crash and burn next year? it's a statement that has absolutely no thought behind it. For all you know, TFC will be NYRB next year.

You are using a prediction to next year as proof that Seattle is nothing special this year, nice one.

SEATTLE IS IN THE PLAYOFFS! WE AREN'T!

did I forget to mention that they spanked us at home this year?

Hitcho
10-26-2009, 10:16 PM
It's a limitation yes. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But like i said in my first post, that is a problem in year 1. Where you haven't had the time to make changes, develop, trade, deal, scout etc. In year 3, if it's still a problem, then it's no longer the roster rules, you've had more than enough time to deal with it and develop a process. At this point, if this is causing major problems, then problem lies with the person dealing with it.

All teams have limitations. For some it's location, (who wants to play in Columbus?), for some it's the salary cap (LA continuously struggles with this with Becky and Landycakes on the same team), for us, it's our Canadian content rules. It's a bump we have to learn to deal with, and at this point it's no excuse.

Bruce Arena is a shining example of someone who has dealt with a difficult situation and instead of using it as an excuse, he has worked around it and with it.

Let's just say Mo is no Bruce Arena.

To just give a blanket statement that "Canadian content" is hurting us without any sort of evidence that backs that up, is weak. Especially when the "Canadian content" we have is a league MVP, a European calibre player, a young solid defensive player, an established, experienced MLS veteran etc.

Yeah fair points. In my head I still think we get a shorter stick than the US teams, but I am too tired to try and understand why.

after saturday i really just feel emntally weary about TFC right now. I love the club still, but I am deeply concerned by some of the reports that are now coming out about dressing room splits, senior management interfering with the side, rats and god knows what else.

i just don;t feel excited about next year, not because of the results, but because it feels like there is a sickness runnig through the team now. that's very disappointing, and i'm not sure how we got here. :(

MUFC_Niagara
10-26-2009, 10:16 PM
Comprehension is not your strong suit is it? Where did I say that?

Are you saying Canadian players are not good enough for MLS? THE MLS???

You're saying Canada made it to the semis of the gold cup with pretty much the same canadian crew on TFC. Last time I checked the US didn't even send their full squad to the gold cup. It's a tournament with a bunch of half rate squads. Now, compare that to what we have achieved in WC qualifying the last few years. How many of our Canadian players over the years have played top flight European football and then looks at the Americans over there. I mean, I hate to say it but Landycakes is easily better than anyone on our national team and he couldn't cut it in Europe. It's not our fault to an extent, I mean the CSA could do more obviousbly, but population numbers is a huge part of it. It's a huge handy cap having to have so many Canadians on our squad. The gold cup...lol.

Dirk Diggler
10-26-2009, 10:17 PM
TFC is the only team in the league drawing from the Canadian talent pool where as there are 14 American teams drawing from the American pool ... even if the American pool of MLS calibre players was about 15 times larger than our own, we can't possibly have that significant of a handicap compared to other teams in the league on a one-to-one basis.

Pachuco
10-26-2009, 10:21 PM
You're saying Canada made it to the semis of the gold cup with pretty much the same canadian crew on TFC. Last time I checked the US didn't even send their full squad to the gold cup. It's a tournament with a bunch of half rate squads. Now, compare that to what we have achieved in WC qualifying the last few years. How many of our Canadian players over the years have played top flight European football and then looks at the Americans over there. I mean, I hate to say it but Landycakes is easily better than anyone on our national team and he couldn't cut it in Europe. It's not our fault to an extent, I mean the CSA could do more obviousbly, but population numbers is a huge part of it. It's a huge handy cap having to have so many Canadians on our squad. The gold cup...lol.

You do mean that Landycakes couldn't cut it at Bayern right? LandyCakes can certainly cut it in Europe. Name a league in Europe and I'll guarantee you he can cut it there, any mid table team on any top league.

Pachuco
10-26-2009, 10:23 PM
Funny thing about this whole (Canadians are our problem) is that we have Nick Garcia and Chad Barrett on our team. Personally, the biggest source of our problems because they are supposed to be starters, making starter salaries but can't fucking block a shot or put the ball in the net. Replace those piece of craps with a solid striker and solid defender and we make the playoffs this year.

james
10-26-2009, 10:27 PM
There are far more quality american players out there than Canadian players, some may not like to hear that but there are, so to my mind being forced to play one over the other does make a difference.

The USA pool is alot deeper, but USA also has alot more teams swimming in that pool.

For Canada i dont think its a big issue now having to have so many Canadians to pick from because we got almost our whole national team to pick from, however once Vancouver and Montreal join our pool it maybe come much harder for TFC. It may be more of a handicap unless the national team inproves or the rules of MLS change.

scooterTFC
10-26-2009, 10:31 PM
I think your underestimating the challenge of building a MLS team that must have Canadian players on the roster. Yes there are some good Canadian players - but in the first 3 years of this club's existense scouting, recuiting and signing Canadians has probably consumed more time, energy and cap space then would have been needed to get similarly talented americans. If for no other reason then MLS managers, like Mo, have never really needed to follow Canadians. You can knock Mo for his failure to bring in quality Canadians in the first couple of years but the reality is he probably started this job with very little knowledge of available Canadian talent. In hindsight hiring a manager with more knowledge of Canadian talent would probably have been smart decision for the MLSE guys to make. Frank Yallop is pretty much the only guy on the planet with MLS expereince and strong ties to Canadian players... and its not like he is setting the world on fire with is managerial genius in SJ. I'm not a Mo fan and I'd be happy to see him go, but part of me fears that he has finally got himself connected and up to speed on the Canadian player pool and if he gets fired and replaced by a new manager we are going to have to live through this whole learning curve again.

Brooker
10-26-2009, 10:34 PM
fine. fuck it. Seattle is better run than we are.

some have it, some don't. if San Jose and RSL weren't as shit as we are, I'd say we should complain.

luck of the draw my friend.

MUFC_Niagara
10-26-2009, 10:41 PM
TFC is the only team in the league drawing from the Canadian talent pool where as there are 14 American teams drawing from the American pool ... even if the American pool of MLS calibre players was about 15 times larger than our own, we can't possibly have that significant of a handicap compared to other teams in the league on a one-to-one basis.

It is whenyou are talking about Canadian players being developed by.....no one.

Dirk Diggler
10-26-2009, 10:51 PM
It is whenyou are talking about Canadian players being developed by.....no one.

Canadians are being developed in the NCAA as well. Also, we are talking about the cream of the crop here ... the kind of players who are MLS quality and above ... if we compare the top 10% of Canadian players with the top 10% of American players, is their talent pool really 15 times superior? I heavily doubt it.

ua-kozak_TFC
10-26-2009, 10:52 PM
I think your underestimating the challenge of building a MLS team that must have Canadian players on the roster. Yes there are some good Canadian players - but in the first 3 years of this club's existense scouting, recuiting and signing Canadians has probably consumed more time, energy and cap space then would have been needed to get similarly talented americans. If for no other reason then MLS managers, like Mo, have never really needed to follow Canadians. You can knock Mo for his failure to bring in quality Canadians in the first couple of years but the reality is he probably started this job with very little knowledge of available Canadian talent. In hindsight hiring a manager with more knowledge of Canadian talent would probably have been smart decision for the MLSE guys to make. Frank Yallop is pretty much the only guy on the planet with MLS expereince and strong ties to Canadian players... and its not like he is setting the world on fire with is managerial genius in SJ. I'm not a Mo fan and I'd be happy to see him go, but part of me fears that he has finally got himself connected and up to speed on the Canadian player pool and if he gets fired and replaced by a new manager we are going to have to live through this whole learning curve again.
LOL Problem is that He can;t managed here are some facts:
We had 16 players at a point in a season... way below the max ammount allowed to hae which is 23 if i am not wrong. Yet with ALL the extra allocation money we shore up we had to DUMP our legend Dichio to make cap space... Canadian or not is not that much of a factor For all i care we would ahve signed 5 or whatever player are the minimum requirement at 10k a peace from the academy and sign who ever you want and what nationality you;d like... That would be a solution to your problem... and it would still leave you with 18 spots to play with... for the salary cap - 50k...

the MOST IMPORTANT point is that MO overpays the players he bring many 200+ players that under perform which if you make calculations at about 10 players you run out of the cap space...
I believe we have the most top 50 or 25 highest payed players... out of the MLS.
AND THAT my friends above all IS a BIG sign of managerial incompetence.

scooterTFC
10-26-2009, 11:00 PM
I agree with you ua-kozak... there's No doubt Mo has made mistakes and I'm not defending him. I'm just poinitng out that managing the only Canadian MLS team is a unique challenge. To succeed Mo or anyone that replaces Mo need to put some extra effort and time into scouting and developing Canadian talent - it just makes the job a little different at TFC then it is elsewhere in the league. .

MUFC_Niagara
10-26-2009, 11:36 PM
Canadians are being developed in the NCAA as well. Also, we are talking about the cream of the crop here ... the kind of players who are MLS quality and above ... if we compare the top 10% of Canadian players with the top 10% of American players, is their talent pool really 15 times superior? I heavily doubt it.

I think the fifa rankings answer that question, as does the World Cup record.

werewolf
10-26-2009, 11:45 PM
I think the fifa rankings answer that question, as does the World Cup record.

yes it does....the US hasn't made 15 more World Cups, nor are they 15 times higher in the FIFA rankings since we are not 165th.

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 12:03 AM
It's a limitation yes. Nobody is disagreeing with that. But like i said in my first post, that is a problem in year 1. Where you haven't had the time to make changes, develop, trade, deal, scout etc. In year 3, if it's still a problem, then it's no longer the roster rules, you've had more than enough time to deal with it and develop a process. At this point, if this is causing major problems, then problem lies with the person dealing with it.

All teams have limitations. For some it's location, (who wants to play in Columbus?), for some it's the salary cap (LA continuously struggles with this with Becky and Landycakes on the same team), for us, it's our Canadian content rules. It's a bump we have to learn to deal with, and at this point it's no excuse.

Bruce Arena is a shining example of someone who has dealt with a difficult situation and instead of using it as an excuse, he has worked around it and with it.

Let's just say Mo is no Bruce Arena.

To just give a blanket statement that "Canadian content" is hurting us without any sort of evidence that backs that up, is weak. Especially when the "Canadian content" we have is a league MVP, a European calibre player, a young solid defensive player, an established, experienced MLS veteran etc.

Roogsy, it is a problem and will continue to be a problem because....

1. The best players will always want to play overseas and in order to entice them to play in MLS you have to overpay for them and thus pay the max cap money for them.

2. The remaining players who aren't overseas aren't as good(on average) as the talent from the much greater pool of american players and even so aren't dummies and will play hardball for more money knowing TFC needs the Canadian content.

Can you seriously tell me that Gabe Gala would be on any other team in this league if he wasn't with TFC? Do you think someone else will pick up Gerba if TFC cuts him loose?


Like I said I'm not putting the blame on this issue entirely but it does have an effect, saying that it doesn't won't make it go away.

Roogsy
10-27-2009, 12:24 AM
Roogsy, it is a problem and will continue to be a problem because....

1. The best players will always want to play overseas and in order to entice them to play in MLS you have to overpay for them and thus pay the max cap money for them.

2. The remaining players who aren't overseas aren't as good(on average) as the talent from the much greater pool of american players and even so aren't dummies and will play hardball for more money knowing TFC needs the Canadian content.

Can you seriously tell me that Gabe Gala would be on any other team in this league if he wasn't with TFC? Do you think someone else will pick up Gerba if TFC cuts him loose?


Like I said I'm not putting the blame on this issue entirely but it does have an effect, saying that it doesn't won't make it go away.

Gabe Gala costs us nothing. Whatever happened on the pitch, and whatever our record is, I assure you Gabe Gala has nothing to do with it.

I am still looking for a quantifiable explanation as to how the Canadian roster regulations are affecting us because right now, the Canadian players we do have as starters would under any analysis be considered experienced, professional calibre soccer players. Am I wrong here? Who isn't?

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 12:45 AM
Gabe Gala costs us nothing. Whatever happened on the pitch, and whatever our record is, I assure you Gabe Gala has nothing to do with it.

I am still looking for a quantifiable explanation as to how the Canadian roster regulations are affecting us because right now, the Canadian players we do have as starters would under any analysis be considered experienced, professional calibre soccer players. Am I wrong here? Who isn't?

Starters or not we still need the content. Did you also discount the part about having to overpay for the ones we do have starting?

You obviously don't agree it's any sort of contributing factor so we'll have to agree to disagree and hopefully for your side of the argument Gerba stays here and pots 20 goals next year and proves me wrong.

My response to the original post was meant to identify to the poster than we aren't playing on a level field with regards to the league. It's not like Seattle was forced to play with "x" number of Washington based players now was it?

Dirk Diggler
10-27-2009, 12:53 AM
Toronto isn't being forced to play with Ontario based players either ... which in comparison would be an advantage since I'm quite certain Ontario has produced better and more professional players than Washington state.

No one is denying that the Canadian roster restrictions are not a hurdle ... but is significant enough to mention? It certainly has not seemed that way thus far. You seem to believe that American teams are loaded with talent, even on the bench, but I'm absolutely certain that they also have players like Gabe Gala who fill up the roster. Also, I don't understand the over paying argument ... are you bringing up the age old Blue Jays excuse for futility?

Roogsy
10-27-2009, 12:59 AM
It becomes and especially suspicious argument when our current roster which falls within MLS rules has FIVE Canadians out of 21 available spots. Really? These five positions are that much of a liability and hinderance to our progress?

And when you consider Danny could have taken up one of those spots when he became a Canadian resident...you have to wonder whether pushing him out made any sense whatsoever.

Is it really the Canadians we are overpaying for? With Robbo, Vitti and Guevara taking up spots 2, 3 and 4 of our cap space after JDG arrived?

menefreghista
10-27-2009, 01:01 AM
I don't have the exact numbers as I've lost count, but TFC is allowed to have approximately 16 internationals on its roster of 24 players.

To blame the teams lack of success on being forced to play Canadians is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.

Sounds to me like some Mo apologists are just making some crazy excuses here.

As for Seattle, the work they did this year should thoroughly embarrass our piss-poor management. Instead there are always a few wackos who want to make excuses for what was a wasted season.

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 01:03 AM
Toronto isn't being forced to play with Ontario based players either ... which in comparison would be an advantage since I'm quite certain Ontario has produced better and more professional players than Washington state.

No one is denying that the Canadian roster restrictions are not a hurdle ... but is significant enough to mention? It certainly has not seemed that way thus far. You seem to believe that American teams are loaded with talent, even on the bench, but I'm absolutely certain that they also have players like Gabe Gala who fill up the roster. Also, I don't understand the over paying argument ... are you bringing up the age old Blue Jays excuse for futility?

:facepalm:

Okay it's not a hindrance at all, how could i have been so blind. Christ let's fill the entire roster with Canadian players then because clearly the money that Brennan, Gerba,Sutton, Dero, and JDG got was because of their football pedigree and not the fact that they were Canadian in any way shape or form.

It's league imposed affirmative action!

Dirk Diggler
10-27-2009, 01:05 AM
Not to mention that Seattle signed impact international players like Freddy Montero and Freddi Ljunberg plus drafted Steve Zakuani ... none of whom are American.

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 01:07 AM
Not to mention that Seattle signed impact international players like Freddy Montero and Freddi Ljunberg plus drafted Steve Zakuani ... none of whom are American.

I didn't defend Moe's international signings, although I'm quite fond of the Dichio signing.

I was trying to make the point that being forced to sign Canadian players puts us on an uneven playing field with the rest of the league.

Roogsy
10-27-2009, 01:08 AM
Not to mention that Seattle signed impact international players like Freddy Montero and Freddi Ljunberg plus drafted Steve Zakuani ... none of whom are American.

We've been begging the same of Mo since season 1. In response, he's made the effort to vacation in Brazil several times...ah, such hard work it is to be director for TFC! And he has not found a single footballing talent worth his attention in the whole of Brazil...BRAZIL! I could throw a rock in the middle of Rio and hit someone TFC could sign cheap...but Mo couldn't find a soul.

menefreghista
10-27-2009, 01:09 AM
:facepalm:

Okay it's not a hindrance at all, how could i have been so blind. Christ let's fill the entire roster with Canadian players then because clearly the money that Brennan, Gerba,Sutton, Dero, and JDG got was because of their football pedigree and not the fact that they were Canadian in any way shape or form.

It's league imposed affirmative action!

Your arguments keep getting slaughtered yet you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

There are way more non-Canadians on this team than Canadians, yet somehow the Canadians are the problem?

This team could field a starting XI and a full accompaniment of subs without ever using a single Canadian.

Get your head out of your ass.

Its not over-paying of Canadians that's holding this team back. Its overall poor management of the roster from all angles.

Dirk Diggler
10-27-2009, 01:13 AM
We've been begging the same of Mo since season 1. In response, he's made the effort to vacation in Brazil several times...ah, such hard work it is to be director for TFC! And he has not found a single footballing talent worth his attention in the whole of Brazil...BRAZIL! I could throw a rock in the middle of Rio and hit someone TFC could sign cheap...but Mo couldn't find a soul.

LOL ... that is indeed a failure of epic proportions akin to walking into a brothel with a fistful of cash and not scoring.

And shagingscot, it may just be the night setting in but your arguments regarding money being given to dero or whatever are making no sense to me what so ever.

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 01:14 AM
Your arguments keep getting slaughtered yet you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

There are way more non-Canadians on this team than Canadians, yet somehow the Canadians are the problem?

This team could field a starting XI and a full accompaniment of subs without ever using a single Canadian.

Get your head out of your ass.

Its not over-paying of Canadians that's holding this team back. Its overall poor management of the roster from all angles.

You're right, there's no way the players or their agents demanded more money from TFC than they would have gotten from another team.

If you read the thread I said it was "one" of the problems, where did I say we're shite because of the Canadian content alone? I know there's a head up an arse somewhere but it sure isn't where I'm sitting.

Dirk Diggler
10-27-2009, 01:17 AM
You're right, there's no way the players or their agents demanded more money from TFC than they would have gotten from another team.

If you read the thread I said it was "one" of the problems, where did I say we're shite because of the Canadian content alone? I know there's a head up an arse somewhere but it sure isn't where I'm sitting.

I don't understand why you are singling out the Canadian players whom you feel are being overpaid. Why not mention Barrett, Robinson, Vitti, Nick Garcia etc. What Canadian connection did their agents come up with to force Mo's signature on their contract?

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 01:23 AM
I don't understand why you are singling out the Canadian players whom you feel are being overpaid. Why not mention Barrett, Robinson, Vitti, Nick Garcia etc. What Canadian connection did their agents come up with to force Mo's signature on their contract?

I also mentioned poor management in one of my posts, however like I also said some people don't want to hear that the quota is also a hinderance, there are some reacting to it in don Cherry like fashion. It's almost as if I pissed on the flag.

There are only so many good Canadian players...fact
In order to get them to play for us we have to overpay for them...fact
Impacts on our cap space.......fact

Were there other overpayments? Christ yes but the overpayment for the Canadian players was almost mandated that's the point.

Dirk Diggler
10-27-2009, 01:29 AM
So you admit that we have a general problem with overpaying players regardless of their nationality yet overpaying Canadian players is somehow a separate and unique issue? Why is it easier for you to believe that we overpaid all our Canadian players because it was mandated by the league rather than coming upon a much simpler conclusion which would be that we overpaid our Canadian players because we generally tend to overpay everyone.

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 01:34 AM
So you admit that we have a general problem with overpaying players regardless of their nationality yet overpaying Canadian players is somehow a separate and unique issue? Why is it easier for you to believe that we overpaid all our Canadian players because it was mandated by the league rather than coming upon a much simpler conclusion which would be that we overpaid our Canadian players because we generally tend to overpay everyone.

Because supply and demand would dictate that the price goes up for something when there's less of it available to purchase that's why.

Again show me where i laid everything at the feet of the quota, I merely pointed out it was one of the issues. However if it makes certain people feel better about a shitty season to say I did blame everything on the Canadians then I hope I've helped ease their pain just a little.

:rolleyes:

Roogsy
10-27-2009, 01:54 AM
This is all an interesting conversation but I am still dumbfounded we don't go back to looking at the facts. Here are the numbers.

Attakora $34k
Barrett $202k
Brennan $193k
Cronin $84k
De Guzman $956k
De Rosario $425k
Dichio $120k
Edwards $48k
Fellinga $36k
Frei $120k
Gala $20k
Garcia $198k
Gerba $177k
Gomez $41k
Guevara $323k
Ibrahim $108k
Robinson $315k
Sayang $40k
Serioux $131k
Vitti $303k
White $113k
Wynne $159k

So the top salary unsurprisingly is JDG...who wasn't even here for a quarter of a season so let's exclude him from this conversation for now.

Therefore the top 12 salaries are, in order:

DeRo $425k
Guevara $323k
Robinson $315k
Vitti $303k
Barrett $202k
Garcia $198k
Brennan $193k
Gerba $177k
Wynne $159k
Serioux $131k
Frei $120k
White $113k

Looking at this, how anyone can argue that Canadian players are eating up valuable roster space, I don't know. There are many teams in the MLS who would love to have DeRo, Canadian or not. An MVP player like DeRo is worth more than 425k some would argue so anyone who claims he is "overpaid" has a seriously hard case to prove.

After DeRo, the next FIVE highest players on TFC are all non-Canadian! And Barrett and Vitti are arguably the most underachieving players in TFC's short history. If anyone wants to take a look at our anemic goal-scoring, all you need to is look at the names at the top of this payroll!

After that, we only have a handful of Canadian players who are barely making the league average. Let me repeat...the league average!

How a person can make a case that TFC is overpaying for Canadian players is beyond me. Certainly the facts don't reflect show it. That TFC is overpaying players is possible...but I'd argue it's the non-Canadian players we are overpaying and that is a reflection of poor management on Mo's part, not a factor of MLS's content rules.

shaggingscot
10-27-2009, 02:19 AM
Okay so what were other clubs offering Gerba, Brennan,Pozniak,Gala,Sutton,Melo, and whoever I may have forgotten. I exclude Dero and Serioux because they were already in the league.

Sea Tac Sounder
10-27-2009, 02:28 AM
But Seattle SOUNDERS are in the Play-OFFs.... yea seattle the expansion team.
You say But they are not expansion team they have hystory, etc bla bla bla ... i challenge you to give name more than 25% of their current squad that played for their USL team... Now if we look at the first team... you chances are even smaller.
But ok I am going to ignore that will say that yes saettle took 100% players from their USL team ( which is considered an inferior league). and Hence they are not an expansion team. So our first year fuck up can be excused. Now everything would be fine and dundy if thi was 2007... unfortunately it isn't and you;d think by year 2 and most definetly by year 3 we would have an advantage over the expansion team... WRONG!
prediction: Seattle vs Crew final and seatle takes it all... this season.


I understand where you are coming from but you have to look past the players on the pitch and look at the organization as a whole. One of the owners, Adrian Hanauer was an owner with the USL Sounders and Sigi's assistant was the head coach in the USL days. Also our practice facility has remained the same and we have had the advantage of having a lot of money to spend from the start.

We really are more like a promoted team than an expansion one. That said, I was sad to see the dead bulls (who are shite) beat you so badly cause I thought sure the third time was a charm for your team making the playoffs.

It's not for lack of talent, you have great players like DeRosario, DeGuzman, Guevara. On paper you should easily have made the playoffs but games are not played on paper.

Here's hoping your team sorts it out for next year.

Oh and at least Nigel Reed is pure class. Wish we had him doing our games.

Chin up lads.

PS: I hope you're right about the final. Nothing would please me more than seeing that diving ponce Schelotto walk into Green Hell and suffer a loss in the MLS Cup vs our Sounders FC.

PPS: I invite all Toronto FC fans to cheer us on in the playoffs so we can show this league what kind of potential a real football club can bring to MLS if they raise the salary cap and allow clubs more autonomy/identity. It seems, you who support TFC the only other supporters in the league who "get it".

Sea Tac Sounder
10-27-2009, 02:48 AM
Seattle is nothing special...they wont make the final, they wont make it past the first round...the won the US open cup and TFC won the Canadian Championship..They are not that much apart..

One key difference. TFC only had to play Montreal and Vancouver two USL teams.

Seattle had to play and beat Real Salt Lake (just to be in the Open Cup) then Colorado, Portland (the best team in the USL this past year on points), Kansas City, Houston, and finally DC United.

Sorry but playing and having to beat five MLS teams and the hottest USL team at the time to win the Open Cup in RFK Stadium > Toronto FC winning the Canadian Championship.

London
10-27-2009, 04:16 AM
PPS: I invite all Toronto FC fans to cheer us on in the playoffs so we can show this league what kind of potential a real football club can bring to MLS if they raise the salary cap and allow clubs more autonomy/identity. It seems, you who support TFC the only other supporters in the league who "get it".


WE respectfully decline your offer!
WE support TFC around here

OneLoveOneEric
10-27-2009, 05:37 AM
You're saying Canada made it to the semis of the gold cup with pretty much the same canadian crew on TFC. Last time I checked the US didn't even send their full squad to the gold cup. It's a tournament with a bunch of half rate squads. Now, compare that to what we have achieved in WC qualifying the last few years. How many of our Canadian players over the years have played top flight European football and then looks at the Americans over there. I mean, I hate to say it but Landycakes is easily better than anyone on our national team and he couldn't cut it in Europe. It's not our fault to an extent, I mean the CSA could do more obviousbly, but population numbers is a huge part of it. It's a huge handy cap having to have so many Canadians on our squad. The gold cup...lol.

DING DING DING!!
We have a winner.
How anyone even tries to compare Canada's football to the USA's is beyond me.

(But it's still not why TFC suck..... but it IS why USA spots can be filled by getting Donovan or McBride, and a massive coup for a Canadian spot is JDG)

Ossington Mental Youth
10-27-2009, 07:02 AM
WE respectfully decline your offer!
WE support TFC around here

HAHAH yes man

canadian_bhoy
10-27-2009, 07:06 AM
here's a stat I'd like to know about Seattle.

1) At what point leading up to the season did they finalize their roster?
2) How many transfers did they make throughout the season?

This was a major downfall of TFC in year one - They weren't ready for the first kick of the season and were piecemeal of ins and outs throughout the season. Granted, Seattle had a USL base to choose from, but their stability has helped them all season.

This piecemeal squad still exists with us today. How can we expect players to care about the club when they are on a path to the revolving door?

menefreghista
10-27-2009, 07:56 AM
This was a major downfall of TFC in year one - They weren't ready for the first kick of the season and were piecemeal of ins and outs throughout the season. Granted, Seattle had a USL base to choose from, but their stability has helped them all season.

LeToux is the only player of any significance that was carried over from the USL team. The Sounders MLS team is a completely rebuilt team.

prizby
10-27-2009, 07:59 AM
Actually, the biggest difference is that their owners care about the game. Ours just care about the bottom line.


really?

so then why are they putting in grass and paying for it all and building new facilities for the city of toronto on their dollar

why do we now have a DP

...

if it was just about the bottom line

prizby
10-27-2009, 08:01 AM
Sorry but playing and having to beat five MLS teams and the hottest USL team at the time to win the Open Cup in RFK Stadium > Toronto FC winning the Canadian Championship.

ur saying beating portland is more impressive then beating the two teams that actually made the USL final

jokes on you

Beach_Red
10-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Clearly the difference is Drew Carey.

We obviously need a celebrity owner. Changing anything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Hitcho
10-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Roogsy and Shaggingscot - I think there's a middle line here.

SS isn't saying having Canadian players on the squad hinders us. And the salary issue is a side point, so the numbers are irrelevant to me.

But the depth of the talent pool is smaller. That means there are only a limited number of Canadians you would want to bring in without diluting the talent of your squad, otherwise you risk bringing in inferior players just because they are Canadian and you need them to fill the roster spots. IF we were to do that, I think it's fair to say that would hurt us, agreed?

So, in order to avoid having to do that, you take the best Canadian players and do so regardless of what position they play. This has two knock-on effects: first, you sign players in positions you don't necessarily need to make sure you get Canadian talent in that is worth having (prime example - did we need a DP in JDG's position given we already had Robbo, Guevara, Cronin, De Ro and Serioux who naturally play CM, or would we have been better served bringing in a DP striker or CB? The naswer is no, but we took him because he was the best Canadian player out there and if you;re going to have to put Canadians in your team then you want the best ones available, regardless of their position); second, you then either have an imbalanced squad (like ours) or you start letting go of players you would otherwise want to keep and/or you pass on players you would otherwise sign.

So the probolem is not that the best Canadian players are worse than the best US players, and it's not that having Canadian players on the roster per se hurts us, because the likes of JDG and De RO are very good. But there is a knock on effect that results from being under pressure to only acquire the best available Canadians regardless of their position. Absent this restirction, we would not have brought in some of the players we have and we would have focussed on toher areas of the squad.

Roogsy you made the point earlier that this is just something we have to deal with, like Columbus have to deal with the fact the place is a shit hole and no-one wants to move there. That may be true, but it then becomes a question of degree. Columbus, for example, can still look to bring in anyone they want from a larger talent pool. And let;s not forget that the MLS system doesn;t allow for player opinions. if you get traded to Columbus because they want you, then you pack up and go there. it's not like Europe where the player has to agree to the transfer first, it just happens. So in that sense, there is no problem for Columbus. Even if the player runs down his contract they still hold his rights. Whereas TFC has a much bigger and more substantive issue to deal with - drawing from a more limited pool and being forced to either dilute your squad talent or sign players in positions you don't necessarily need, and then havign to rebalance everything around that fact.

I've been saying for a long time that MLS needs to remove the US/Canadian player distinction for squad designation purposes only (I understand they can't change the immigration status, but there's no need to, you just scrap the roster distinction and if the player doesn;t get a green card or whatever, then the deal doesn't go through). This problem will become acute when Van and Mtl join the league, primarily becauise we'll already have all the good Canadian players and they'll be fucked. And then they're going to go to the league and say "hey, you fuckers, we paid you $40m and you're not letting us build a team that has any chance of winning." And they'll have a point. You can't take $40m from a franchise in CANADA and then say "oh no sorry guys, CANADA isn't part of the MLS league so you get your own rules". That;s true of us too, but we were the only ones looking to soak up Canadian players and although it;s had a knock on effect (see above), we've been able to deal with it. but we won't be able to when Van and Mtl join, and neither will they. So the league is gonna have to seriously reconsider its policies, or the three Canadian teams will all have millstones tied round their necks and will eventually jack it in because there's no hope of winning.

And an aside to finish off - it's meaningless to say that this will BECOME a problem when Van and Mtl join the league but is isn't a problem NOW. of course it is, it's exactly the same problem in both instances, it's just more ACUTE with three Canadian teams in the league. Same issue, but bigger.

CoachGT
10-27-2009, 08:34 AM
Removing the North American player distinction would solve a few problems. MLS was designed as a league to help develop US talent. The purists would prefer no Canadian teams, but the business side of the sport sees the potential for sustainability in some Canadian markets.

Putting on a patriotic hat, I'd prefer to see the player distinctions remain in place. That would mean that in order to compete, we'd need to have better Canadian talent. Go back to the first year and you see Braz, Hemming and a few others who were on development rosters (or in a development phase of their career) filling the "Canadian" spots. I'd rather have depth at positions to win, but I understand the objective at the time. I'd rather see Canadian talent that can play at this level put in place, where the talent is the equivalent of other available talent. And I'd like to see a proper development system in place so that, in 3-5 years, local talent developed will be capable of playing in the league.

Maybe the roster restrictions go away for a few years. But I'd still rather see them in place than not.

Oldtimer
10-27-2009, 08:54 AM
There is no excuse for the bad season TFC had, and I put the blame on MoJo.

However, comparing Year 1 TFC with Seattle Year 1 is absurd.
Sure, they only carried part of their roster, but you have to look at the whole infrastructure. For example, in Year 1, TFC had no scouts. Now they do.

Year 1 Seattle is more comparable with year 3 TFC. Now by THAT standard, Mo and Co. are found wanting. Even then, SS is partly right that we have some handicap by the roster restrictions.

Beach_Red
10-27-2009, 09:03 AM
There is no excuse for the bad season TFC had, and I put the blame on MoJo.

However, comparing Year 1 TFC with Seattle Year 1 is absurd.
Sure, they only carried part of their roster, but you have to look at the whole infrastructure. For example, in Year 1, TFC had no scouts. Now they do.

Year 1 Seattle is more comparable with year 3 TFC. Now by THAT standard, Mo and Co. are found wanting. Even then, SS is partly right that we have some handicap by the roster restrictions.


And it is to be expected, isn't it? Look, when Seattle offered Sigi the job, as you say, they had a whole infrastructure in place and when MLSE was offering the job here they had nothing - and weren't planning to get much going for a couple of years. That had to scare off a lot of people from coming here. Would Sigi have taken the job then?

TFC USA
10-27-2009, 09:21 AM
The Seattle Sounders have 5 road wins in year 1.

Toronto FC has 6 total road wins in 3 years.


Just pointing it out.

rocker
10-27-2009, 09:25 AM
OH GOOD ANOTHER THREAD COMPARING US TO THE SOUNDERS TO MAKE A POINT.

- Scott

I'm waiting for the threads where people compare us to San Jose.

Pachuco
10-27-2009, 09:40 AM
This is all an interesting conversation but I am still dumbfounded we don't go back to looking at the facts. Here are the numbers.

Attakora $34k
Barrett $202k
Brennan $193k
Cronin $84k
De Guzman $956k
De Rosario $425k
Dichio $120k
Edwards $48k
Fellinga $36k
Frei $120k
Gala $20k
Garcia $198k
Gerba $177k
Gomez $41k
Guevara $323k
Ibrahim $108k
Robinson $315k
Sayang $40k
Serioux $131k
Vitti $303k
White $113k
Wynne $159k

So the top salary unsurprisingly is JDG...who wasn't even here for a quarter of a season so let's exclude him from this conversation for now.

Therefore the top 12 salaries are, in order:

DeRo $425k
Guevara $323k
Robinson $315k
Vitti $303k
Barrett $202k
Garcia $198k
Brennan $193k
Gerba $177k
Wynne $159k
Serioux $131k
Frei $120k
White $113k

Looking at this, how anyone can argue that Canadian players are eating up valuable roster space, I don't know. There are many teams in the MLS who would love to have DeRo, Canadian or not. An MVP player like DeRo is worth more than 425k some would argue so anyone who claims he is "overpaid" has a seriously hard case to prove.

After DeRo, the next FIVE highest players on TFC are all non-Canadian! And Barrett and Vitti are arguably the most underachieving players in TFC's short history. If anyone wants to take a look at our anemic goal-scoring, all you need to is look at the names at the top of this payroll!

After that, we only have a handful of Canadian players who are barely making the league average. Let me repeat...the league average!

How a person can make a case that TFC is overpaying for Canadian players is beyond me. Certainly the facts don't reflect show it. That TFC is overpaying players is possible...but I'd argue it's the non-Canadian players we are overpaying and that is a reflection of poor management on Mo's part, not a factor of MLS's content rules.

I couldn't have written it up any better then you have here. If some people don't get it after this then I don't know what to say.

Wooster_TFC
10-27-2009, 09:46 AM
I wonder what kind of impact taxation has on a player who's deciding between an american team and us? I'm fairly certain that taxes take a huge chunk up here compared to most places down there...

I also wonder how much you have to overpay a guy like Barrett to stay in a country that isn't his, and in a place that he probably doesn't want to be in (speculation)?

And for those of you who are saying that we should only be signing players who want to be here, let's get serious: for the same pay, why would a good 'ole patriotic american boy choose a canadian side over his, possibly hometown but at least country where he was born, city?

Gazza_55
10-27-2009, 12:57 PM
really?

so then why are they putting in grass and paying for it all and building new facilities for the city of toronto on their dollar

why do we now have a DP

...

if it was just about the bottom line

Why is Mo Johnston still our GM? Why did they give him an extension?

...........

if TFC was serious about winning.


PS: Putting grass in allows them to have more friendlys against top European competition make the $2m profit per date.

Yohan
10-27-2009, 12:58 PM
Not to mention that Seattle signed impact international players like Freddy Montero and Freddi Ljunberg plus drafted Steve Zakuani ... none of whom are American.
Zakuani went to school in US IIRC. That makes him more or less a US domestic eh?


I understand where you are coming from but you have to look past the players on the pitch and look at the organization as a whole. One of the owners, Adrian Hanauer was an owner with the USL Sounders and Sigi's assistant was the head coach in the USL days. Also our practice facility has remained the same and we have had the advantage of having a lot of money to spend from the start.
I think this is key point. Seattle had head office structure in place. Better organized to make signings and overall team organization.

Take another recent expansion team. San Jose. Same problem TFC had year 1 and 2. A lot of revolving door in that team too. Didn't have a head office structure in place before expansion year unlike Sounders.

As to year 1 domestic signings comparison, think about availability of domestics for TFC in year 1. We had guys like Miguel Canizales and Tyler Roselund FFS. Seattle could fill it out with guys like Patrick Ianni, Zack Scott, Brad Evans who can play and fill in when required.
TFC didn't start signing decent Canadians until year 3 IMO. 3 years ago MLS wasn't that much of a league worth noting, so players didn't really want to come over. Now, more players are willing to come to MLS, hence increase in quality of players coming over.

That's the difference right there too. If guys like Will Johnson, Andre Hainault, Dejan Jakovic were available in year 1, don't you think TFC would have picked them up instead of Canizalez and Roselund?

Sea Tac Sounder
10-27-2009, 05:48 PM
ur saying beating portland is more impressive then beating the two teams that actually made the USL final

jokes on you

In a single table league like the USL yes, at the time we played Portland they were the hotest team in the USL. Just because they didn't make it to the final through a wonky playoff system doesn't mean they weren't quality.

For god sakes, the finished with the most points.

Sea Tac Sounder
10-27-2009, 06:03 PM
Zakuani went to school in US IIRC. That makes him more or less a US domestic eh?

In proceedure (ie: being available through the SuperDraft) but not in reality. He still counts as an international player towards the quota.

So while we drafted Zakuani he doesn't have a green card and counts as an international not unlike Montero and Ljungberg.



I think this is key point. Seattle had head office structure in place. Better organized to make signings and overall team organization.

Agreed. They also had a "football culture" by virtue of the fact that Hanauer had been running a team in Seattle, where this sport is the biggest in the USA. More people play soccer in Washington state and Washington has produced more players than just about any other state in the union.





Take another recent expansion team. San Jose. Same problem TFC had year 1 and 2. A lot of revolving door in that team too. Didn't have a head office structure in place before expansion year unlike Sounders.

A lot can be said for stability. While many Sounders fans have wanted transfers of certain players out and into the team over the summer, only one player was brought in. Gonzalez. TFC always struck me as a team very active in the transfer market but trading and bringing in so many players for three years never really gave TFC time to gel or form a team culture or style of play.

Redcoe15
10-27-2009, 08:30 PM
:facepalm: It's bad enough our side crashed and burned and now are on the outside looking in, again. But to see a first year expansion team (Seattle) and a team that was divided at the beginning of the season (Los Angeles) both make the playoffs. Well that just sickens me to no end. Pass the hard liquor, its attempted blood poisioning time! :drunk::puke:

Yohan
10-28-2009, 03:36 PM
In proceedure (ie: being available through the SuperDraft) but not in reality. He still counts as an international player towards the quota.

So while we drafted Zakuani he doesn't have a green card and counts as an international not unlike Montero and Ljungberg.

I think domestic as in his footy was most developed while playing in NCAA, regardless of whether he has a green card or not