The city is going to make out like bandits and MLSE is going to foot the bill

[ilikemusic]

If these type of results continue for another season, the runaway success story that is Toronto FC will come to a crashing halt.

I can barely justify my $30 per ticket partial season pack, I dont know how on earth people paying $70 or $80 for season tickets can justify the purchase to themselves.

Another season of this pitiful garbage and the fans will leave. It isnt worth it to invest so much emotionally and financially in a franchise that simply does not return on the investment.

And im not talking about the one or two thousand people who post here and who are really just big soccer fans, im talking about all the casual fans. Theyre the ones who make TFC the mainstream success story that it is.

Those fans will leave, and MLSE will be left footing the bill for a stadium nobody cares about anymore.

I may even give up my partial season tickets because I have a very good feeling that there will be loads of tickets available to every game next season.

This team has never come up big when it has mattered. A 1-0 home victory against the like of Salt Lake does not count as big, nor does the Montreal Impact rolling over to give us the Canadian Championship and stick it to their real rival in Vancouver.

The casual fans in this city are going to catch on and BMO is going to look like alot of other MLS stadiums with their small sections of dedicated supporters, and thousands of empty seats.

MLSE is going to be left paying for three facilities, their BMO Field cash cow is going to dry up, and the city is going to look like geniuses for getting the local sports conglomerate to pay for all of this.

edit: Maybe I should have put this in the TFC general. This isnt news, just my opinion. :lol:

[Phil]

And why is this news....?

[MUFC_Niagara]

because, Rooney, although threads such as these have been springing up all day, one has not been created with this title....guys, you don't need to make a new thread everytime you have a thought. we have a thread on the go about issues related to next season! USE IT.....PLEASE!!!!

[Cashcleaner]

MLSE is going to be left paying for three facilities, their BMO Field cash cow is going to dry up, and the city is going to look like geniuses for getting the local sports conglomerate to pay for all of this.

Ummm...but MLSE hasn't invested in BMO Field nearly as much as the city, province, and feds all have.

[Pookie]

So, what you are saying is that you only will support a team when it is winning?

[canadian_bhoy]

I know a quite a few people that didn't renew their seats for next season. And they weren't ho hum fans, they were very loyal supporters.

[Chevy]

^^ obviously not THAT loyal.

[rocker]

that's fine. if people don't like a product, don't buy it continually. the rest of us then don't have to be in the same stadium with people who don't want to be there.

but everyone who says they are going to cancel tickets makes it sound like their act of cancellation will be the death-knell of TFC cuz they are greatest fans. ugh.

[Pookie]

You don't have to be a STH to be a loyal fan. You don't even have to go to the stadium to be a loyal fan. And there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose not to renew tickets. Changes in family situations, financial pressures, even geography, etc, etc.

With all of that said, if one has the means and chooses not to renew because of team performance in a given year and that is their only reason... well, you lose the right to call yourself a loyal supporter. Instead, wait for the bandwagon to come around and pick you up during the good times.

[Fort York Redcoat]

but everyone who says they are going to cancel tickets makes it sound like their act of cancellation will be the death-knell of TFC cuz they are greatest fans. ugh.

and they are making a statement of true support by not renewing. Ugh squared.

[MUFC_Niagara]

I know a quite a few people that didn't renew their seats for next season. And they weren't ho hum fans, they were very loyal supporters.


Good, more tickets for other people that want to be at BMO. I hope that when times are good they won't be able to find tickets. GOOD with the BAD.

[mastermixer]

Good, more tickets for other people that want to be at BMO. I hope that when times are good they won't be able to find tickets. GOOD with the BAD.

True, maybe this will weed out the fairweather fans and let some new true supporters have a chance to cheer on.

[Alarius]

True, maybe this will weed out the fairweather fans and let some new true supporters have a chance to cheer on.

The more 'fairweathers' that leave.. the greater my chances of getting season tickets to seats I will never sit on :) :flare:

[Beach_Red]

I know a quite a few people that didn't renew their seats for next season. And they weren't ho hum fans, they were very loyal supporters.


I know some people who didn't renew because they just don't like MLS - the style of play, the level of play, just not for them. Maybe they'll come back if the league improves enough to their liking.

I guess I can't blame them, I have no interest in the AHL, it's not a high enough level of play and it has none of the excitement of the OHL.

[Globetrotter]

With all of that said, if one has the means and chooses not to renew because of team performance in a given year and that is their only reason... well, you lose the right to call yourself a loyal supporter. Instead, wait for the bandwagon to come around and pick you up during the good times.

I've never understood this part, probably never will. Does loyal supporter mean accepting everything that the team does, celebrating the few minor successes, while keeping quiet about the massive failures?

Stepping aside is not always about bandwagon. In fact it can act as your voice. Not renewing speaks volumes. If renewal rate went form 90%+ for a couple years, then dropped to 75%, sure there's a lineup to take the seats, but don't you think a proper management group might question what happened?

As a Bills STH for several years, I had my eyes on going to see the Saints play in week 3. There was some signs that the Bills might finish above 500 this year, so I was excited that a potent team like N.O. would be in town. After the Bills fumbled the kickoff with 2 minutes left in the opener vs NE... I didn't watch the end of the game, and said right then...I'm selling the Saints tix, and have sold off almost all the other tix. I still watch a quarter of the game if I'm home, and I'll check the final scores on Monday mornings, but when they dropped the ball, it was "it's the same old tricks"... new year, some slight changes... same pony show. Fix the problems, I'll give you more money (and time if possible). That's not being non-supportive, imo anyways.

I'm a Bills, Wolverines, Leafs, TFC, fan and have been for many years. There hasn't been much to be happy about while supporting them. Though I might not throw money and all my time at the team even though I'm financially capable of doing so, I still check to see how they are doing and consider myself a loyal fan and long time supporter of them, and not a band wagon fan (I don't support other teams the same way).

[trane]

^^ obviously not THAT loyal.

Not reneweing season tickets does not mean they are not loyal supporters. Renewing your tickets blindly does not make you loyal, but it may suggest that you are more interested in the bloody atmosphere then the footy. I am just pointing out that it is a difficutl question, I had the debate, because I was not sure what was better for the long term prospects for the club. Showing my displeasure by not re-purcahsing the tickets, or giving them another year. I just barily decided to re-purchase.

[v00d00daddy]

So, what you are saying is that you only will support a team when it is winning?


Nope...people won't support a team that is always losing. There's a difference.

[trane]

^ and gives little evidence of being interested in improving.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Nope...people won't support a team that is always losing. There's a difference.

I guess it's a different mentallity. I'll never stop supporting a team that isn't winning. This is the definition of a glory hunter. The same people that aren't renewing their tickets or saying they won't support the team next season because they are a losing side are the same ones that will stand at the front of the line when we win the MLS cup for the first time and say "I was here from the start....through the good and bad and this is my reward!" These are the not people I want to celebrate with.

[Globetrotter]

I guess it's a different mentallity. I'll never stop supporting a team that isn't winning. This is the definition of a glory hunter. The same people that aren't renewing their tickets or saying they won't support the team next season because they are a losing side are the same ones that will stand at the front of the line when we win the MLS cup for the first time and say "I was here from the start....through the good and bad and this is my reward!" These are the not people I want to celebrate with.

Well I guess that's where the definition of "support" comes into play. If someone wants to watch a game on tv supporting the team because they want to hear the play by play, watch replays, etc is as much of a supporter as someone that claims to be hard core because they attend every match, in pouring rain, etc.

Paying money, going to the stadium, does not make someone more of a supporter. I don't have to catch a single game live, on tv, anywhere... I could just check for results in the paper the next day and still say I've stuck with them since day one. So what gives you (anyone else) the right to think they have more "right" to celebrate? Did you block that shot? Did you make that header that was the winning goal? We can all celebrate equally. It might just mean more/less personally depending on how much of our time/money they've invest in the team. But make no mistake, just because person A is "hardcore" at the stadium doesn't make him more of a supporter than person B watching the game on a tv while he's on a treadmill at the gym.

Maybe the only "different mentality" are those that claim that they are a better fan, a better supporter than someone else. Maybe they are lacking self esteem or reassurance, and supporting a team so much gives them some type of purpose in life, and are offended or threatened when "some lesser" fan challenges their positioning.

[trane]

I guess it's a different mentallity. I'll never stop supporting a team that isn't winning. This is the definition of a glory hunter. The same people that aren't renewing their tickets or saying they won't support the team next season because they are a losing side are the same ones that will stand at the front of the line when we win the MLS cup for the first time and say "I was here from the start....through the good and bad and this is my reward!" These are the not people I want to celebrate with.

But how do you ensure that the club is working toward that goal, if you continue to support it even at times that it looks like they have no intention of getting better?

[Globetrotter]

Considering this is a supporters forum, there's no surprise about how much stock is invested in crowd supporters club support from some of the posts here, but it's foolish to think that is the only type of support, or that is the best type of support. There's no reason to rank or classify different people and how much support they give a team. Some comments (in many threads) suggest that the prawns or suites just don't class with the "true supporters". They're not vocal enough. They aren't real fans.

If a parent doesn't go watch most of their kids elementary, high school, college, rec league games, does that mean that they don't support their kids? Are they part time supporters? If they do go, do they have to be yelling and screaming to consider it appropriate support, or can their presence alone not be considered support for their child?

Tell me what you honestly believe... what would motivate/encourage you more: 20,000 fans jumping and singing or the quiet words of belief and encouragement from a loved one right before a game?

[Pookie]

I've never understood this part, probably never will. Does loyal supporter mean accepting everything that the team does, celebrating the few minor successes, while keeping quiet about the massive failures?

Stepping aside is not always about bandwagon. In fact it can act as your voice. Not renewing speaks volumes. If renewal rate went form 90%+ for a couple years, then dropped to 75%, sure there's a lineup to take the seats, but don't you think a proper management group might question what happened?


This "boycott" or "protest with your wallet" argument is one that I think is full of holes when it comes to TFC. Follow with me.

Here is the argument:

Fans are upset with TFC's performance. They don't feel that MLSE is doing what it takes to win.

They believe that MLSE cares more about profits than it does on field results.

They choose to boycott TFC and attempt to force MLSE into improving the team by hitting them where it hurts... the pocketbook.

But...

... if the argument is valid, MLSE has to care about profits in order for this to be effective.

The Missing Link in the argument

MLSE has invested in this team and in the capital assets that surround the team.

- They have brought in a Designated Player, raising their expenses by over $900k per year.
- They have acquired and operate a Television station focused solely on soccer
- They have financed a conversion to Real Grass ahead of schedule

The Missing Link is Important

... because winning pays for those things.

It draws ratings to the TV network. It sells subscriptions. It sells advertising. It draws corporate sponsorships. It provides leverage for other brands (ie. Marlies). It provides for brand recognition in a Canadian soccer market that will become increasingly competitive with Vancouver and one or both of Ottawa/Montreal in the years ahead.

Winning provides for additional fixtures and the gate receipts that come with it. How many CCL home games did they miss out on with that pitiful performance against Puerto Rico? How many MLS Playoff dates have flown by as a result of a 5-0 defeat?

Go back a year, how many CCL home games did they miss out on by not winning the Canadian Championship? MLS Playoff dates?

If MLSE had not invested in the club/TV station/players and stadium, I'd be more likely to side with you. I do agree, they are a business and businesses care more about the bottom line.

However, given that they have invested in those things, winning is equally important to them as it is us. A boycott with your wallet is likely to be fruitless as a result. They already want to win and they are already missing out on revenue. The potential to miss out on more can really only encourage short term fixes (ie Nick Garcia for a pick).

It does nothing to encourage the "boys on the field" or make BMO a hostile place for visitors to take points.

[Globetrotter]

So I buy my seasons tix, show up to every game clapping, but I just wear a red shirt from wal mart, eat my food at home instead of at the park, take freebies at the entrance instead of buying similar items at the in-stadium shops... i can still hit them in the wallet without losing support for the team. Do I have to buy a hot dog and an official foam finger to be a true supporter?

[Pookie]

^ do what you like.

I'm not at all suggesting blank cheques be written in c/o MLSE. I am saying that a boycott will not result in any change in management direction because they too want to win (in order to recover their investments).

What it will do is perhaps force them into making short term fixes (see Leafs, Toronto Maple) to recover profits sooner. It does absolutely nothing for the guys on the field in terms of support.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

If these type of results continue for another season, the runaway success story that is Toronto FC will come to a crashing halt.

I can barely justify my $30 per ticket partial season pack, I dont know how on earth people paying $70 or $80 for season tickets can justify the purchase to themselves.

Another season of this pitiful garbage and the fans will leave. It isnt worth it to invest so much emotionally and financially in a franchise that simply does not return on the investment.

And im not talking about the one or two thousand people who post here and who are really just big soccer fans, im talking about all the casual fans. Theyre the ones who make TFC the mainstream success story that it is.

Those fans will leave, and MLSE will be left footing the bill for a stadium nobody cares about anymore.

I may even give up my partial season tickets because I have a very good feeling that there will be loads of tickets available to every game next season.

This team has never come up big when it has mattered. A 1-0 home victory against the like of Salt Lake does not count as big, nor does the Montreal Impact rolling over to give us the Canadian Championship and stick it to their real rival in Vancouver.

The casual fans in this city are going to catch on and BMO is going to look like alot of other MLS stadiums with their small sections of dedicated supporters, and thousands of empty seats.

MLSE is going to be left paying for three facilities, their BMO Field cash cow is going to dry up, and the city is going to look like geniuses for getting the local sports conglomerate to pay for all of this.

edit: Maybe I should have put this in the TFC general. This isnt news, just my opinion. :lol:


I have held season tickets since late 2006 which have gone from $200 - to $335 for nest season which is hard enough when your on a govt disability pension...add to that the $700 i spend to use greyhound and go to get me to the games..it all adds up.. I justify this expence cause i Love, sleep , eat, TFC 24-7 i love my footie win , lose or draw, i dont
put conditions on being a supporter, i love the city of Toronto, and glad it has a professional football club at last...yes i went to the Lynx quite a lot at varsity but it was never run as a professional outfit more like the leafs
just with balls!! To Hell with the casual fans...if they become full time TFC supporters and footie supporters great..if they are here just to experience a TFC game day to hell with them we don need them..This attitude is not directed at fans who come to games when they can..so fans can be great supporters to, its just a shot at people who come at company perks,
the the two seast nect to me section 114 row 1, seats 6 & 7 i wish real supporters could get these seats, RPB, U Sector, TRN, NEE etc.. i would not shed a tear if we lose a few thousand casuels if thet get repaced by the same diehards!! a 1-0 win over RSL does count..i would take a 1-0 win over every team in the league..ok the Montreal game was not taken serious by the Impact but we did, the impact have to explain to their fans on that, but the face they won the USL over vancouver i dont thimk they will care.. When we DO qualify for the playoffs and have a winning season and re capture the canadian championship next season, this past season will be forgotten and the big question this time next season is Have the leafs won Lately!! Keep the faith TFC supporters!!

[Bars92]

-better to lower expectations than forever struggle with a sense of entitlement

[trane]

^ Who said that Homer Simpson?


It sounds like his famous " trying is the first step to failure mantra".

[Bars92]

^ Who said that Homer Simpson?


It sounds like his famous " trying is the first step to failure mantra".

I think it sums up some of the attitudes on these boards quite well - that they are somehow owed an incredible football team because the club has been well supported for all of three years. If you want to be a real supporter you need to be prepared for the worst, we have a long ways to go..:D

[Section 117]

-better to lower expectations than forever struggle with a sense of entitlement




I think it sums up some of the attitudes on these boards quite well - that they are somehow owed an incredible football team because the club has been well supported for all of three years. If you want to be a real supporter you need to be prepared for the worst, we have a long ways to go..:D

I completely agree it seems sometimes we all (myself included)of a sense of entitlement about the product on the field. We are never as good as we think and possibly not as bad as we think.

Yes, we have an idiot running the franchise, but what should we expect. IMO TFC has to learn who to walk first before it can run. Yes it is despicible how the team played on Sat. But could you honestly think that just if we squeaked into the playoffs that would help.

We should all be here for the long haul, this episode Saturday night and what transpired this year should be used to learn from. We want a championship quality team, not a team just satified with the playoffs.

Hopefully these events will spur dramatic changes through out the club and we can use the pieces we found this year and build a squad that will be contending for years not a year.

:scarf: :scarf:

[Bars92]

I completely agree it seems sometimes we all (myself included)of a sense of entitlement about the product on the field. We are never as good as we think and possibly not as bad as we think.

Yes, we have an idiot running the franchise, but what should we expect. IMO TFC has to learn who to walk first before it can run. Yes it is despicible how the team played on Sat. But could you honestly think that just if we squeaked into the playoffs that would help.

We should all be here for the long haul, this episode Saturday night and what transpired this year should be used to learn from. We want a championship quality team, not a team just satified with the playoffs.

Hopefully these events will spur dramatic changes through out the club and we can use the pieces we found this year and build a squad that will be contending for years not a year.

:scarf: :scarf:

Agreed, although the question of whether Mo is qualified to be running this club is a huge question. Clearly the results have not been as good as we'd like. But who is the alternative? Could someone else have done a better job, given the resources available?

[MUFC_Niagara]

Well I guess that's where the definition of "support" comes into play. If someone wants to watch a game on tv supporting the team because they want to hear the play by play, watch replays, etc is as much of a supporter as someone that claims to be hard core because they attend every match, in pouring rain, etc.

Paying money, going to the stadium, does not make someone more of a supporter. I don't have to catch a single game live, on tv, anywhere... I could just check for results in the paper the next day and still say I've stuck with them since day one. So what gives you (anyone else) the right to think they have more "right" to celebrate? Did you block that shot? Did you make that header that was the winning goal? We can all celebrate equally. It might just mean more/less personally depending on how much of our time/money they've invest in the team. But make no mistake, just because person A is "hardcore" at the stadium doesn't make him more of a supporter than person B watching the game on a tv while he's on a treadmill at the gym.

Maybe the only "different mentality" are those that claim that they are a better fan, a better supporter than someone else. Maybe they are lacking self esteem or reassurance, and supporting a team so much gives them some type of purpose in life, and are offended or threatened when "some lesser" fan challenges their positioning.

It seems you were too preoccupied taking a veiled swipe at me instead of understanding the crux of my argument, so let me spell it out more clearly. The point is that people are giving up their tickets because we are not winning, so if the person checking the scores in the newspaper stops checking the scores because we are losing, it's the same thing. They stop an action that has connected them to the team because the team loses. If they leave, don't come back when we win. That is what I am saying. I am not defining levels of hardcore support or what makes a better supporter. What I am saying is, at what ever level you support the team, if you turn your back on them now, don't come back.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Agreed, although the question of whether Mo is qualified to be running this club is a huge question. Clearly the results have not been as good as we'd like. But who is the alternative? Could someone else have done a better job, given the resources available?

Clearly people on here could have, have you read some of the posts? That's why their ideas end up on a message board....arm chair generals, gotta love them. :facepalm:

[Section 117]

I think so, we have a team of cm midfielders and no wingers. We have a cm playing defense. We traded two MLS quality defenders, no proven strikers. Yes he can draft and he brought as Danny, Dero(even though he was handed to us) and JDG the only things he has done.

We go through coaches like it is nothing.... It all stems from him. I think I could have built a more balance squad

[Super]

Do we know season ticket renewal rate for next season? I've heard rumblings about people not renewing, but I also heard that it's pretty much as high as last year (95%).

[v00d00daddy]

It seems you were too preoccupied taking a veiled swipe at me instead of understanding the crux of my argument, so let me spell it out more clearly. The point is that people are giving up their tickets because we are not winning, so if the person checking the scores in the newspaper stops checking the scores because we are losing, it's the same thing. They stop an action that has connected them to the team because the team loses. If they leave, don't come back when we win. That is what I am saying. I am not defining levels of hardcore support or what makes a better supporter. What I am saying is, at what ever level you support the team, if you turn your back on them now, don't come back.


Here's where you get stuck. I have no intention of giving up my tickets because TFC are not winning. Neither do most of the other people bitching about the team.

Some people just want to voice out their frustration and disappointment. That's it.

I don't want to boycott concessions to try and hit MLSE where it hurts. I don't give a shit about MLSE. I want the guys in red with the name Toronto on their chest to understand that we will not just forever cheer them on, no matter how much they fail.

That doesn't mean giving up your seats...or a walkout...or anything that drastic.

You know what I'd like to see as an end result or any kind of "protest" ?(or whatever the hell you wanna call it)

I'd like the players to look up at the south end and say to themselves:

"Holy fuck. They're pissed off. They usually sing and cheer for us all game. Fuck...we've hit rock bottom. It's really time to get our shit together"

Instead...they play poorly and shit the bed when it matters most (Saturday at NYRB) and guess what they're going to see on opening day 2010:

A south end cheering and dancing away as if nothing happened. And here's what they'll say to themselves (if they haven't already done it)

"Wow...these guys and gals in the south end are awesome. No matter what, they've got our back. That's wicked. I hope we don't shit the bed this year....but if we do...it's all good...no worries...they'll cheer us on next year and the year after that, and the one after that.".

I don't want this to happen.

[Globetrotter]

voodoo... that's seems to be the border between the real supporters and the flakes. im in total agreement that at some point we need to send a message to everyone, players included (!!!) that enough is enough. going back to my first post here, i don't understand the "real" supporters 100% devotion no matter what, and i just don't think i ever will.

[Cashcleaner]

I always find these sort of arguments amusing. You know, the ones about which makes one individual a superior supporter over another. You would think that if we had so many superior supporters here in Toronto, the Lynx would be the team we'd be talking about, not Toronto FC.

And thus, we now understand the ridiculousness of the debate.

[james]

the one thing that just makes me so mad is how ticket prices go up and up and we really dont see much inprovement on our investment. I mean if MLSE doesnt meet there season goal then fans should get a break on costs for the following season. I mean just imagine if TFC actually had a good season and MLSE met all there goals...what would the prices be then?? probably increase alot more and thats what scares me. I dont want to get to the point where i cant afford seasons no more.

[Pookie]

If you look at it as your ticket prices are reflective of on field performance, you aren't looking at the right picture.

This is a business.

Your ticket prices are reflective of the investments MLSE has made in the team.

You want a DP, fine, you've got one. You want grass? Fine, you've got grass. You want stadium expansion/roofs/investment in coaching/etc... start saving.

It's time to pay up.

What you hope is that the investments made translate into winning but there isn't necessarily a direct link between your ticket prices and winning.

In fact, you could argue that if they continue losing (while making investments in the team) your prices will continue to go up since they can't offset those investments with playoff revenue.