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Keyman
10-25-2009, 12:05 AM
Obviously each needs to be addressed. Talent is one thing which needs to be addressed, this is true, but talent can only take you so far. Talent did not cost us tonight, or this season.

It's difficult to fairly asses the culture, mentality and character of the club from such a distant perspective. We're not in the locker room, we don't know the players personally, we really don't know anything about the attitude of most of our players. Yet I still believe that poor team culture, mentality and character lie at the heart of our failure. They are at the root of our inconsistency. I don't see the passion when we win, I don't see the devastation when we lose. There's a reason why Danny Dichio is revered by so many, there's a reason we're all drawn to him. It's because
his attitude stood out, the result on the pitch meant everything to him. A euphoric Danny Dichio was one of the intimidating, but beautiful sights on game-day. He bled TFC. Something tells me tonight was harder on Danny than it was one some players on the current roster.


The question then becomes, who is responsible for such poor team mentality, culture and character? To me, Mo is an excellent evaluator of talent, but not of character. His signings are impressive, he acquires a talented crop of individuals, but he doesn't build a strong team. So he must go then, right? But are players eternally chained to their character? Some will say that a quality coach can directly influence, and alter for the better, the character and mentality of players, subsequently creating an improved culture within the club. So is Chris Cummins to blame? Or does the responsibility fall solely into the players hands, are they, in the end, the only people who can truly push themselves to a Dichio level?

I open it up to you. I don't want this to be another Mo sucks, Serioux sucks, Cummins is incompetent, Garcia is slow, etcetera, etcetera discussion. I'm trying to look at this from a different angle, not purely at the talent. Or, am I way off? I don't post much anymore, so maybe I've simply lost my sanity!
Thoughts...?

Lennon
10-25-2009, 12:10 AM
Culture, Mentality and Character

The person that has the biggest effect on that is the head coach. Cummings must go.

Keyman
10-25-2009, 12:21 AM
Culture, Mentality and Character

The person that has the biggest effect on that is the head coach. Cummings must go.

So then could one individual, i.e. a new coach, have transformed the entire culture of this club?

THA BUTCHA
10-25-2009, 12:22 AM
When JIM BRENNAN is your Captian...

that pretty answers all your questions

Chevy
10-25-2009, 12:23 AM
Cummins is gone. Do we need to discuss this any longer?

kdzb
10-25-2009, 12:26 AM
We have to read from Seattle book of success.
tonight, they could throw the game to the dogs because they were already in the playoffs but they fought until the 94 minute to get a win and please their fans.
Seattle coach is a winner
Seattle DP is a winner
Seattle keeper is very experienced and a winner
Seattle on loan player - Freddy Montero - is a winner
that's what I call a culture of winners with strong character.

Tonight loss against Shit Bulls shouldn't be forgotten easily because that was a disgrace of a game.

Cummins must go for his inability to coach.
Mo must go for his failure to build a strong team since 3 years ago.
Barrett, Vitti, Garcia, Gerba, Wynne, Brennan, Serioux should not come back next year because they are not worth to be in TFC.

Keyman
10-25-2009, 12:27 AM
Cummins is gone. Do we need to discuss this any longer?

But what is that actually going to accomplish? Aren't I completely entitled to question whether or not the players actually give a damn? I think it's fair to say that another coach could come in, take the reigns of the same core, and although he may be a fantastic tactician and motivator, it will fall on deaf ears.

fetajr
10-25-2009, 12:28 AM
Sadly, nothing will change until Mo Johnston is out of the picture, and Tom Anselmi hires a manager that believes in a possession attacking style, identifies talent that can play this system, and knows how to execute it.

No more managers and coaches from the UK. The experiment is done, its proven nothing, its time to change and give another football ideology a shot.

kdzb
10-25-2009, 12:36 AM
It's time to write a strong letter to Tom signed by all the SERIOUS fans of TFC, that if he doesn't pull the plug on Mo then we will pull the plug on supporting the team.
We are becoming Leafs fans and they know it....Profits but no results

THA BUTCHA
10-25-2009, 12:42 AM
We are becoming Leafs fans and they know it....Profits but no results

no we wont. 4 of my friends are not renewing next years season tics....trust me this is a sign of things to come.

jloome
10-25-2009, 12:53 AM
We have to read from Seattle book of success.
tonight, they could throw the game to the dogs because they were already in the playoffs but they fought until the 94 minute to get a win and please their fans.
Seattle coach is a winner
Seattle DP is a winner
Seattle keeper is very experienced and a winner
Seattle on loan player - Freddy Montero - is a winner
that's what I call a culture of winners with strong character.

Tonight loss against Shit Bulls shouldn't be forgotten easily because that was a disgrace of a game.

Cummins must go for his inability to coach.
Mo must go for his failure to build a strong team since 3 years ago.
Barrett, Vitti, Garcia, Gerba, Wynne, Brennan, Serioux should not come back next year because they are not worth to be in TFC.

Not to depress you too much, but Montero's not on loan. They bought him outright about three months ago. And he's only paid, like, $120,000 a season.

People have to come to grips with one simple fact: there is no one source of the problems, but it's all Mo's responsibility. One other would also help: people massively overestimate the talent of our players.

No heart, no head. Lots of guys who can dribble well around orange pylons, but don't know how to move off the ball. Lots of guys who are fond of trying cute passes and who don't bust their ass to chase the ball down.

Christ, how many more seasons does it have to be said: this roster needs a massive shakeup and Mo's got to go.

Roogsy
10-25-2009, 12:54 AM
no we wont. 4 of my friends are not renewing next years season tics....trust me this is a sign of things to come.

2 of my friends did not renew and one did but JUST barely.

TFC is screwing up a good thing and they don' even know it.

Chevy
10-25-2009, 12:59 AM
FFS guys, Mo doesn't strap on the boots each week.

DeRo-check
DP-check
Draft Picks (Cronin,White,Frei,etc...)-A+ check

Give the guy a little break. Its not his fault our coach went Bat Shit Insane and left the continent. New coach, new philosophy and this club will be just fine.

Auzzy
10-25-2009, 01:47 AM
FFS guys, Mo doesn't strap on the boots each week.

DeRo-check
DP-check
Draft Picks (Cronin,White,Frei,etc...)-A+ check

Give the guy a little break. Its not his fault our coach went Bat Shit Insane and left the continent. New coach, new philosophy and this club will be just fine.

Actually, yes, it's partly Mo's fault, because he hired that coach, but obviously did a poor job judging his character, and a poor job keeping him happy after he was here.

Obviously it's not all Mo's fault, but the rot starts at the top.

jloome
10-25-2009, 02:03 AM
A post-mortem on yesterday's single-game nightmare is
pointless. Better to look at the whole mess
and admit a few things:
1) It's obvious there are players on this
team with bad attitudes.
The funny thing is, we don't know who the
worst headcases are. We can guess from
their reactions on the pitch, lack of drive in
important games etc, but we don't know
for sure.
2) I'm not sure it matters. I think there's a
heady mixture of incompetent players, a
lack of intensity and poor coaching/morale
at play.
This team needs to be built around heart,
around DeRo, Nana Attakora, Sam Cronin.
And it needs to start shedding ego (DeRo
excluded; I'm not his biggest fan but we
just can't afford to shed him, even if he
deludes himself into thinking he's C.
Ronaldo).
--------------------------------
GOAL
Frei: Keep him. Not near his potential yet
and doesn't control his box/needs
muscle/determination, but is a good shot
stopper.
Edwards: Ditto
------------------------------
DEFENSE
Wynne: Trade him. If he can't fix his
positional issues after four seasons,
there's no hope. Bruce Arena was right.
Attakora: Keep him, start him next season
in central defense, unless we miraculously
get two A-1 centre halfs, in which case I'd
platoon him. He's almost there but not
quite.
Serioux - Buh-bye. Reads the game poorly,
complains about injuries when the wind
blows hard on him. doesn't chase down his
players, makes poor passing decisions and
is overly aggressive
Garcia - Needs no further discussion
Gomez - Is 18, and not ready yet. Good
backup
Brennan - Doesn't read the game well
enough, often caught forward or too far
inside, is one of the reasons we can't build
from the back, as he can't read the short
passing lanes, and longballs most of what
he gets. Lots of heart... at times. Time for
Jim to retire gracefully.
---------------------------------------
Verdict? Defensively, we need at least one
starting centre half, preferably a big,
strong veteran with good intensity, loud,
commands the backline.
We need two fullbacks. Leslie Fellinga is
not a starter in this league, except perhaps
as a pure winger. He doesn't have the
defensive intensity required to be a
day-in-and-out fullback in MLS. Good
backup, though.
----------------------------------------------
Midfield
We have four defensive holders. People
keep mentioning that JDG played as an
attackingplayer for the nats a few times,
but it's also worth mentioning that he only
started to flourish in Europe after moving
to defensive midfielder.
We have no pure wingers, except Jimmy. I
actually think he wasn't bad there, better
than at fullback. If he doesn't retire, maybe
he could be the backup winger on the left
side.
We have two starting attacking
midfielders, Guevara and DeRosario.
I got an ominous sense from the way
Cronin said something along the lines of
"for the players who are going to be here
next year,".
We have Robbo who looked awful this
season, Guevara who looked distracted and
was asleep half the time, brilliant
occasionally; Cronin who was solid but not
spectacular; DeRo, who won half our
games singlehandedly and then did serious
damage via ineffectual, egotistical
ballhoggery in the other half. JDG didn't
have time for a fair verdict but looks out of
sorts without any quality around him.
Sanyang looks like real quality much of the
time and those long legs cover huge
ground; plus, he's a beast. But he's young
and reckless, thus a backup.
Verdict: Robbo either retires, or goes back
to England, or agrees to a backup role.
Guevara is, I think maybe only one year
away from retiring anyway. Cronin is a
versatile player, young and with heart. So
we keep him, Dero and JDG, use the money
from Robbo and Guevara to get two
starting wingers.
----------------------------------
Forwards
We don't have anyone with team-leading
experience up top. White looks like he has
real promise, if seriously coached
tactically. He's a good finisher, but is used
to having too much space and time from
college.
Gerba looked like a stone, most of the
time. He held up the ball poorly and his
lateral movement was non-existent. Maybe
he has a cannon for a shot, maybe he's a
great finisher, but if he's never in position
to score it won't mean squat.
Barrett's release is too slow and when he
has time he hammers the ball as a result.
He needs serious coaching on how to stay
calm over the ball and pass the fucking
thing into the lower corner. But he works
hard and creates offensive chances. I don't
he's starting material on a good MLS team,
but we should keep him, preferably as a
backup wide forward, at a salary decrease
-- which we'll likely be forced to do for
another season anyway, as he has one
more guaranteed season in his four-year
deal (the last two are unguaranteed).
Vitti is a pussy hound who, again, suffers
from a slow release and overthinking,
signs of shot confidence. His excellent
technique and trying to take a "lesser"
midfield role won't do the trick. We should
let him go, unless he'll take a massive
paycut and work from a backup role to
earn a starting position.
Gabe Gala, we have to assume at this
point, isn't a serious consideration,
although who would know? We didn't get
to see Gomez until about two-thirds of the
way in and he had some fine moments (and
some real clunkers. That's a lot of pressure
for an 18 year old from one of the smallest
countries on the planet.)
Ibrahim? DOes he even play for the team
anymore? He's making $108,000, only a
few sheckels less than Freddy Montero.
Verdict: We need the money from Vitti for
serious contenders, so unless he'll come
back for, like, $55,000 a season, hasta la
vista. Say goodbye to Gerba, too. Just
doesn't have the movement to be an
effective starter at this level.
So, when all is said and done and if the
departures went as predicted, we'd be
keeping:
Frei
Edwards
Attakora
Gomez
Fellinga
Sanyang
Cronin
DeRosario
DeGuzman
White
Barrett

The result? We free up $1.8 million in
salaries to build the team properly.
With that we can get two wingers, a
starting centre half, two fullbacks and a
striker. That's six players. If we average
$250,000 for each, a highly competitive
salary, we have $300,000 left to fill out
the roster with three draft signings and
three developmental players. An average of
$50,000 should be sufficient for that.
That would leave us with a full 22-man
roster, making actual full 11-on-11
practice games possible. It would give us a
highly attractive starting salary package
for MLS level for the majority of the new
positions, and give us solid backup at every
position on the roster.
So there's the solution....in my opinion, of
course. Keep in mind we also have a new
CBA coming in next year, so the cap may
go up slightly as well, or a second DP may
be allowed.
People talk about how terribly hard it is to
make a budget work in MLS. But I don't
think, at $250,000 per season on average
and with a beautiful new grass pitch
coming in, that a good GM should have any
trouble filling those six key roles -- with a
focus on players with heart.

Shakes McQueen
10-25-2009, 02:07 AM
I agree with that prognosis, jloome.

And if those needs are not filled, Mo either needs to be canned before the season begins, or canned after a few weeks if/when it becomes evident his latest experiment is also failing.

- Scott

trane
10-25-2009, 02:29 AM
2 of my friends did not renew and one did but JUST barely.

TFC is screwing up a good thing and they don' even know it.

I was seriously considering not reneweing. But then I did. But I have taken a more phylosophival attidue toward. HOWEVER, I have to say that I have questioned the entire organizational phylosophy for a while, I just to not share their vision and direction. But I am stuck. We only have one team.

Northern Soul
10-25-2009, 07:04 AM
Here's my take on it from another thread...

Well, here's my take. I don't think Cummins is a good coach. He has certainly made some questionable decisions regarding who starts, who is subbed in.

I also think that some of the players on the team who feel 'entitled' to be there should go. Say what you want about DeRo, but he works his ass off every game. That certainly can't be said about all of our players. Guevara, despite all of his talent, barely seems to give a crap most of the time. Seeing him play for Honduras compared to TFC is night and day.

We need a new defense. Brennan is not a capable starter, Garcia was hit and miss, mostly miss. Serioux, as much as I love him, was hit and miss too (although I'd keep him and Nana). Robbo did not have a great year as CDM, and that certainly didn't help either.

As good as some of the players are that we brought in, we need some stability and consistency on the team. This entire year was like Football Manager in rotating players in and out. How the hell can our team gel if they don't know who will be starting beside them on the pitch?

We have a lot of attacking players, but nobody that can finish clinically on a regular basis. I'd definitely keep a lot of the guys (Barrett, DeRo, De Guzman, Gerba, White) but we need a new system, specifically one that can use De Guzman as the linkup between defense and strikers.

We need some proper wing players. We need guys that can consistently get the ball in the box to our strikers. I wouldn't mind keeping Brennan on the wing, but as a defender he isn't very good, especially this year. At least from the wing he has generated some chances.

Basically, a 5-0 loss to a shit team when you're fighting for your playoff lives should tell you all you need to know. Coaching, players, trainers, GMs...everyone is to blame.

CretanBull
10-25-2009, 07:25 AM
I agree with that prognosis, jloome.


Seconded!

Nuvinho
10-25-2009, 07:44 AM
I have a feeling we are in for another season of MANY CHANGES AGAIN!!!

I see big names on the way out.

ArmenJBX
10-25-2009, 07:48 AM
Rumours of a certain "Carlos Calvo" from Xerez coming in. Can't name the source.

Nuvinho
10-25-2009, 07:52 AM
Rumours of a certain "Carlos Calvo" from Xerez coming in. Can't name the source.

found this site, wish I had a login to checkout other players.

http://www.imscouting.com/player.aspx?id=d60SzG2OrzqEj/MOCO6Yug||&name=Carlos+Calvo

S_D
10-25-2009, 08:00 AM
I agree with that prognosis, jloome.

And if those needs are not filled, Mo either needs to be canned before the season begins, or canned after a few weeks if/when it becomes evident his latest experiment is also failing.

- Scott

thirded! :D

Except I would get rid of Mo NOW if I there is a competent MLS coach like Sigi or Mariner available. Not some team's assistant, an existing head coach.

I would also like to see the team add a few more players and be close to the roster cap. Only carrying 21 players is ridiculous. Mo's philosophy of overpaying for what you have and sacrificing roster spots to do it was a failure.

Pookie
10-25-2009, 09:05 AM
Agreed with most of what you said jloome with a couple of exceptions.

It is impossible to know who the bad apples are. Cummins made his comments post game after the question about players openly criticizing each other on field. Granted we are not in the room but players like Barrett and De Rosario come to mind immediately if that is the indicator. I think Barrett is extremely expendible. There have to be other US Internationals that have less baggage. We have to have some big stones and be prepared to cut bait if... and that's a big if... De Rosario is in that category.

I can't get over thinking that Vitti and De Guzman would be a very interesting mid-field combination if they were given time to play together. Vitti is the one player that comes to mind when it comes to movement off the ball. While the other parts of his game are clearly deficient (finishing being at the top of the list), Vitti's strength is getting into open space. De Guzman rarely carries the ball and almost immediately looks to move the ball forward. Seems like a good combo waiting to happen.

There is something completely wrong at Mo's level. I'm not saying it's Mo but it is Mo who can do something about it.

Coaching

Carver quit during the season and I don't believe has landed anything with Newcastle yet. Last I read, he was working for the BBC. Clearly, something was wrong.

Cummins hinted that he wouldn't return and in his post game referenced "promises made" that went unfulfilled.

So, we can easily replace Cummins with the next guy. But 2 coaches departed in 1 year. Are the issues that influenced that still going to be there?

Scouting and Player Managment

Mo is the one that assembled the team but he also relies on staff to give opinions on players. If it is lacking character, were there not scouting reports? Who wrote those reports? Is there investment needed there?

Did we release Sutton wisely? Yes it saved cap room. But Edwards takes a US International slot. If we kept Sutton and released Edwards, could we have picked up a US International?

Does Mo have Stones?

This last point sounds blasphemous. But is Mo able to stand up to the pressure of fans/MLSE? We all (should) know that MLSE is famous for exerting influence in player situations. They famously pressured the hockey team to re-sign Domi and to extend a contract over the lockout to Ed Belfour.

This is also a young team with a young fan base. They screwed up royally in the Real Madrid fiasco (as just one example). Are the pressures from fans, some knowledgable and some not, too influential in decisions that the team makes?

Combine MLSE pressure with fan pressure and you begin to wonder about Mo's ability to stick to "his" plan (assuming he has one) and avoid wavering with the wind.

For example, if De Rosario is in fact a bad apple and this was known, was the pressure to sign a Canadian enough to outweigh better judgement? I like De Ro, I'm just asking "if".

Was it wise to bring in a DP and introduce a salary gap between Attakora ($34k) and De Guzman ($$$)? Was it wise to bring in a salary gap between De Guzman and De Rosario?

Was the pressue to fix the D so strong that we got Garcia only to realize that we couldn't play him in critical matches?

Mo is the only one with the ability to influence the above. He has to be willing or else we need someone else who is.

ensco
10-25-2009, 09:25 AM
Mo must go.

Cummins attack on Mo last night has given me some respect for CC. The poor guy was in over his head, he was fed to the lions by Mo. CC gave us his all, he just wasn't ready for it. I wish him well. He may well be a fine manager in due course.

Mo shit the bed this year. DeRo and JDG are MLSE acquisitions, it's not like getting those guys was about talent identification, it was only about money. Mo had a decent draft, but getting Frei late was dumb luck. Against that is the following:

- The Carver disaster and putting in a raw rookie coach
- Trading Marshall and Dunivant for nothing
- Giving huge cap space to Vitti
- Trading the 4th overall pick for Serioux
- The coup de grace, the Gerba/Garcia fiasco. If we can't get out of the Gerba/Garcia contracts Mo should be fired for cause.

Mo put CC in the job instead of going down on the field himself so that he could escape the noose if it didn't work. I pray MLSE are smart enough to see through it. We will not get a quality coach with Mo as the boss. He is a lone wolf who has the rare honour of being called out by his coach 10 minutes after the end of the season.

ArmenJBX
10-25-2009, 09:34 AM
Why the fuck is Mo buying players, first off!?

Shouldn't it be the head coach who picks what players he wants!? Mo's only job is to make it happen.

Right now, this is how we work.

Mo Johnston: Brings in whoever the fuck he wants. He's got a talent at trading and drafting, but cannot bring in the right players. Built a squad of midfielders.

Chris Cummins: Works with said players, but has no real say. Cannot build a squad his way because:
a) He cannot choose the players he wants.
b) He is not competent enough to put together a squad with a style of play.

What we should have is:

Head Coach: Asks for whatever player he needs/wants. Puts those players into a formation that has a style. For example, if Mr. Head Coach wants a winger to play in a crossing into the box style, he should get one. If Mr. Head Coach needs a center back/sweeper for a three defender system, he should get one.

Mo Johnston: Goes out and gets those players. Does not interfere. Strictly deals with the business side of things. Follows the instructions of the Head Coach and does not deal with the squad side of things.

Fix things. NOW!

wzhxvy
10-25-2009, 09:35 AM
When you are part of an organization and you dont believe in its leadership...stuff like yesterday happens. Losing 1-0, 2-0 ok but to lose 5-0...and Ansalmi better be careful because he is going to become a part of the problem and not the solution like NOW.

Beach_Red
10-25-2009, 09:39 AM
I was seriously considering not reneweing. But then I did. But I have taken a more phylosophival attidue toward. HOWEVER, I have to say that I have questioned the entire organizational phylosophy for a while, I just to not share their vision and direction. But I am stuck. We only have one team.

One of the factors in my decision to renew was Danny Dichio's desire to stay with the organization. I figured now he really could take a job with many other teams - probably even at a higher position than he's going to have here - and yet he decided to stay with TFC.

If TFC is good enough for Dichio, it's good enough for me.

billyfly
10-25-2009, 09:40 AM
Cummins is gone. Do we need to discuss this any longer?


Asked if he even wanted the job, Cummins – who took over for John Carver in April - chuckled and said: “Listen, I was asked to come in and do a job until the end of the season and that’s what I’ve done. I’ve made mistakes all the way, the same as everyone else. Will I be here next year? Listen, there’s a fair chance I won’t be. My family’s back in the UK and I need to be near my family. They came out with me when I first came out and unfortunately there was things promised me that I didn’t get at the end of it.”

ensco
10-25-2009, 09:46 AM
One of the factors in my decision to renew was Danny Dichio's desire to stay with the organization. I figured now he really could take a job with many other teams - probably even at a higher position than he's going to have here - and yet he decided to stay with TFC.

If TFC is good enough for Dichio, it's good enough for me.

Beach Red, I wouldn't base anything on what DD did. Dichio doesn't have a real job here. He was forced into it by us, but it's not like Mo cares what he thinks. He did it because he really loves us, loves Toronto, wants to stay, and thought it was best for the team...but he needs a real job.

DD is a major open issue going forward. Like you say, I bet he could generate a lot of interesting offers if he wanted to. He is a special person.

Danny is nobody's mascot.

olegunnar
10-25-2009, 09:48 AM
Mo must go.



Mo put CC in the job instead of going down on the field himself so that he could escape the noose if it didn't work. I pray MLSE are smart enough to see through it.


I agree with this but with one caveat. It's not up to MLSE to see through it...it's up to ALL of us. MLSE is a business and priority one is the bottom line. Mo's made them money. He sold Edu, he's drafted Frei who wants to be sold, he's signed (albeit grossly over paid, for crowd favourites) etc. etc. If he were to cost them money...then maybe they'd want to get rid of him.
It's our money to lose...if we sit here and make excuses for this crap and still spend our money...what motivation will there be to get rid of Mo? After all he's proven to be good for the balance sheet.

Beach_Red
10-25-2009, 09:52 AM
Beach Red, I wouldn't base anything on what DD did. Dichio doesn't have a real job here. He was forced into it by us, but it's not like Mo cares what he thinks. He did it because he really loves us, loves Toronto, wants to stay, and thought it was best for the team...but he needs a real job.

DD is a major open issue going forward. Like you say, I bet he could generate a lot of interesting offers if he wanted to. He is a special person.

Danny is nobody's mascot.

No, not a mascot, but a guy who is willing to work here. Yes, we'll have to wait and see what happens, what job he gets, etc., all I'm saying is it's one of the reasons I'm willing to stick with the team. The team can't lack character entirely if Dichio is willing to stick with it.

And frankly we have no idea what his input will be with the team, who cares what he thinks or not, and how much his position is because it was forced on the team. They did hire him to begin with a couple years ago, he wasn't forced on the team then.

Beach_Red
10-25-2009, 09:57 AM
I agree with this but with one caveat. It's not up to MLSE to see through it...it's up to ALL of us. MLSE is a business and priority one is the bottom line. Mo's made them money. He sold Edu, he's drafted Frei who wants to be sold, he's signed (albeit grossly over paid, for crowd favourites) etc. etc. If he were to cost them money...then maybe they'd want to get rid of him.
It's our money to lose...if we sit here and make excuses for this crap and still spend our money...what motivation will there be to get rid of Mo? After all he's proven to be good for the balance sheet.

And what motivation does Mo have to get a better line-up when we have polls here that say to keep every player except for Garcia?

Sure, input from the supporters, but from what we see here we would have the exact same team just a different coach and GM - would that really make a big enough difference?

ensco
10-25-2009, 10:01 AM
They did hire him to begin with a couple years ago, he wasn't forced on the team then.

Mo loved Dichio. I still remember Mo staring down Carver on the sidelines in the second half of the 2008 opener, because Carver wouldn't put him on.

But something happened between them.

Maybe John Molinaro et al can run that story now.

dinminister
10-25-2009, 10:06 AM
Obrien White Is Equivalent To Andrea Lombardo. Derosario Has Sucked Since The Montreal Game. Gerba Should Be On Weightwatchers. Vitti Is Full Of Himself. Guevara Hates Toronto. Robinson Hasnt Held Onto The Ball For More Than 2 Seconds Since Season 1. Brennan Has Had A Broken Arm Everygame For 2 Seasons. The Only Good Player On This Team Is Sam Cronin

Yohan
10-25-2009, 11:22 AM
So then could one individual, i.e. a new coach, have transformed the entire culture of this club?
yes he can. but he must have the support of upper management, from GM Mo to suits upstairs to bring in the changes he want

if the manager does not have full control over running of the team, and people interferes with way he wants to do things, he won't be able to change the culture and mentality of the team

if I was the new manager, with full support of my bosses, here's how I'd do things

Day 1:meet with my coaching staff. explain to them my philosophy of football and how I want to do things. (i'd have an outline of a plan for the season, plus few years in the future the way I'd like to see things made, and approved by GM and other suits) give them chance to ask questions. see if they understand. at the end of the meeting, ask anyone if they feel that they can't accept my philosophy and think they can't work with me. they'd have to resign their position.

Day 2: meet with players. do the same thing i did with the coaching staff. ask if anyone does not buy into my philosophy. anyone who wants out, I go to GM and tell him to release or trade him.

rest of the week: I'd run their tails off. put them through workouts and drills that make them wish their dads didn't have dirty thoughts about their moms. evaluate who's got the guts to tough it out, and who doesn't.
those that don't show enough heart gets cut

maybe during all this, the players realize that they are suppose to be professional footballers, and that things like hard work and teamwork must be done at all times, regardless of how difficult things are

TFCtoMUFC
10-25-2009, 11:30 AM
yes he can. but he must have the support of upper management, from GM Mo to suits upstairs to bring in the changes he want

if the manager does not have full control over running of the team, and people interferes with way he wants to do things, he won't be able to change the culture and mentality of the team

if I was the new manager, with full support of my bosses, here's how I'd do things

Day 1:meet with my coaching staff. explain to them my philosophy of football and how I want to do things. (i'd have an outline of a plan for the season, plus few years in the future the way I'd like to see things made, and approved by GM and other suits) give them chance to ask questions. see if they understand. at the end of the meeting, ask anyone if they feel that they can't accept my philosophy and think they can't work with me. they'd have to resign their position.

Day 2: meet with players. do the same thing i did with the coaching staff. ask if anyone does not buy into my philosophy. anyone who wants out, I go to GM and tell him to release or trade him.

rest of the week: I'd run their tails off. put them through workouts and drills that make them wish their dads didn't have dirty thoughts about their moms. evaluate who's got the guts to tough it out, and who doesn't.
those that don't show enough heart gets cut

maybe during all this, the players realize that they are suppose to be professional footballers, and that things like hard work and teamwork must be done at all times, regardless of how difficult things are

The new coach needs to play hard ball. Go in first time you talk to the players. Say we are going to run things differently now, if you dont give me everything you have all the time I will sub you out immediately and get Mo to release you, doesnt matter if your Fellinga or De Guzman everyone must give 100 percent. Anyone who doesnt want to work hard or if your name is Nick Garcia stand up, leave and you will be able to go to a new club soon.

Pookie
10-25-2009, 11:50 AM
The new coach needs to play hard ball. Go in first time you talk to the players. Say we are going to run things differently now, if you dont give me everything you have all the time I will sub you out immediately and get Mo to release you, doesnt matter if your Fellinga or De Guzman everyone must give 100 percent. Anyone who doesnt want to work hard or if your name is Nick Garcia stand up, leave and you will be able to go to a new club soon.

Sounds good although the one thing that you need to pull this off is support of the upper management.

The first time that De Guzman (or De Rosario or Frei or ...) slacks off and doesn't get called out for it, you've lost the room.

Is Mo willing to allow you to bench his multi-million dollar DP? Is Peddie?

If it continues and gets ugly, are they willing to cut bait with the contract and support you? If they do cut bait, under the MLS development/quota rules, could they afford to replace a talented but mis-directed Canadian/International/US International with equal talent from the same country?

If you can't follow through, the players will quickly tune you out.

v00d00daddy
10-25-2009, 11:59 AM
TFC did not fail to find success due to a lack of work ethic.

They failed due to a lack of any kind of ability to understand how football is supposed to be played.

Harder working players would not have turned us into a playoff team.

TFC has too many players that don't know know how to control a ball at an MLS level. Not a Premiership or Brazilian level...AT AN MLS LEVEL.

Plain and simple. When you have 2,3,4,5 guys on the field who treat the ball like a hand grenade you get these kinds of results.

Go down the list of almost every MLS club this year and you will find that they have more "technical" players than TFC.

TFC is surrounded by a culture that doesn't hold technical ability very high on any list of priorities.

We're more concerned with "hard work", "determination" and "heart.....whatever the hell that means.

For example...running ragged in practice a guy like Guevara is totally pointless. All you'll get is a pissed off Honduran. Making a guy like him run a lot in practice does nothing. What you need to do is surround him with players who have half an idea of what to do with the ball. Without that, all you'll ever have is a guy who shows up half of the time.

Until this idea changes...nothing will change.

JLoome had a great post earlier in this thread but even it had elements of "if we had worked harder/chased down men" we would have been more successful.

Bullshit. We need better football players, influenced by better football minds.

Yohan
10-25-2009, 12:07 PM
JLoome had a great post earlier in this thread but even it had elements of "if we had worked harder/chased down men" we would have been more successful.

Bullshit. We need better football players, influenced by better football minds.
team of better technical football players without work ethic is a team of junk

why do we bother idolizing Dichio?

v00d00daddy
10-25-2009, 12:11 PM
team of better technical football players without work ethic is a team of junk

why do we bother idolizing Dichio?


Any team without work ethic is junk.

Work ethic is a minimum requirement to be a pro.

anto7
10-25-2009, 12:18 PM
TFC did not fail to find success due to a lack of work ethic.

They failed due to a lack of any kind of ability to understand how football is supposed to be played.

Harder working players would not have turned us into a playoff team.

TFC has too many players that don't know know how to control a ball at an MLS level. Not a Premiership or Brazilian level...AT AN MLS LEVEL.

Plain and simple. When you have 2,3,4,5 guys on the field who treat the ball like a hand grenade you get these kinds of results.

Go down the list of almost every MLS club this year and you will find that they have more "technical" players than TFC.

TFC is surrounded by a culture that doesn't hold technical ability very high on any list of priorities.

We're more concerned with "hard work", "determination" and "heart.....whatever the hell that means.

For example...running ragged in practice a guy like Guevara is totally pointless. All you'll get is a pissed off Honduran. Making a guy like him run a lot in practice does nothing. What you need to do is surround him with players who have half an idea of what to do with the ball. Without that, all you'll ever have is a guy who shows up half of the time.

Until this idea changes...nothing will change.

JLoome had a great post earlier in this thread but even it had elements of "if we had worked harder/chased down men" we would have been more successful.

Bullshit. We need better football players, influenced by better football minds.
I agree with most of what you say here particularly regarding the lack of technical ability of a number of our players. That said, you still do need an element of hard work and determination, pure talent alone will not get you through some of those cold April days at BMO. As I mentioned in another thread we have one of the most technically gifted midfields in the league, problem is they are not utilized correctly. Part of the reason may well be coaching but a big part has to be(in my opinion) that they are surrounded by some very poor technical players who only seem to know how to hoof the ball upfield.

rocker
10-25-2009, 12:27 PM
I have watched other teams in the league quite often. And TFC's style of play is rarely even close to as smooth and aware as most other teams. San Jose, for example, plays a much smoother style of play but they don't have as much talent as we do, so they blow chances. New England seems to play a good looking style no matter how much they scrape the bottom of the talent barrel to find players due to injuries (I mean, they lost a guy like Taylor Twellman and even lost Shalrie Joseph for some games, and they still are in contention for a playoff spot). Look at Preki in LA. The guy takes players who are not necessarily the greatest in talent, and makes it work.

Lastly, TFC has seen a number of players leave to go on to success. Even Tyrone Marshall had his detractors with TFC (he could look like a pylon at times) yet he fits nicely into Seattle's system, which minimizes his inadequacies. I think this is the essence of coaching. We haven't had that in 3 years.... you can't expect to just continually get new players to fill inadequacies. That's very difficult in the cap system. This is why I disagree with notions of a radical change in the roster. That just means another season of "getting to know one another". Instead, you need a proven MLS coach who is familiar with the league and what leads to success. A coach who will look at what he's got and say "OK, I may not have this or that, but I'm going to employ a system that maximizes the talent I've got. I'm not going to put players in positions where they can easily fail."

MUFC_Niagara
10-25-2009, 12:35 PM
It's time to write a strong letter to Tom signed by all the SERIOUS fans of TFC, that if he doesn't pull the plug on Mo then we will pull the plug on supporting the team.
We are becoming Leafs fans and they know it....Profits but no results

I'm a serious TFC fan who will NOT be signing that letter.

jloome
10-25-2009, 02:56 PM
TFC did not fail to find success due to a lack of work ethic.

They failed due to a lack of any kind of ability to understand how football is supposed to be played.

Harder working players would not have turned us into a playoff team.

TFC has too many players that don't know know how to control a ball at an MLS level. Not a Premiership or Brazilian level...AT AN MLS LEVEL.

Plain and simple. When you have 2,3,4,5 guys on the field who treat the ball like a hand grenade you get these kinds of results.

Go down the list of almost every MLS club this year and you will find that they have more "technical" players than TFC.

TFC is surrounded by a culture that doesn't hold technical ability very high on any list of priorities.

We're more concerned with "hard work", "determination" and "heart.....whatever the hell that means.

For example...running ragged in practice a guy like Guevara is totally pointless. All you'll get is a pissed off Honduran. Making a guy like him run a lot in practice does nothing. What you need to do is surround him with players who have half an idea of what to do with the ball. Without that, all you'll ever have is a guy who shows up half of the time.

Until this idea changes...nothing will change.

JLoome had a great post earlier in this thread but even it had elements of "if we had worked harder/chased down men" we would have been more successful.

Bullshit. We need better football players, influenced by better football minds.

I think you missed my point a little there, voodoo....if we had better football minds, they WOULD be working harder, chasing down balls, moving into space etc. Those are products of a good all-around footballer, not just work ethic.

We have a much weaker team than people are willing to admit, because everyone wants their home team to be mostly competent. Our mostly isn't.

jloome
10-25-2009, 03:02 PM
Mo must go.

Cummins attack on Mo last night has given me some respect for CC. The poor guy was in over his head, he was fed to the lions by Mo. CC gave us his all, he just wasn't ready for it. I wish him well. He may well be a fine manager in due course.

Mo shit the bed this year. DeRo and JDG are MLSE acquisitions, it's not like getting those guys was about talent identification, it was only about money. Mo had a decent draft, but getting Frei late was dumb luck. Against that is the following:

- The Carver disaster and putting in a raw rookie coach
- Trading Marshall and Dunivant for nothing
- Giving huge cap space to Vitti
- Trading the 4th overall pick for Serioux
- The coup de grace, the Gerba/Garcia fiasco. If we can't get out of the Gerba/Garcia contracts Mo should be fired for cause.

Mo put CC in the job instead of going down on the field himself so that he could escape the noose if it didn't work. I pray MLSE are smart enough to see through it. We will not get a quality coach with Mo as the boss. He is a lone wolf who has the rare honour of being called out by his coach 10 minutes after the end of the season.

This is dead on. If you've worked in corporate culture for any length of time, you'll know how dreadful it is seeing rot set in high up and then watching any quality attached to that corporate culture disappear. Usually, it goes more quickly than the associated profits, which is why it isn't noticed until too late.

MLSE really has a chance to take notice NOW, while the club is still young, and fix things where they start, with Mo. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were behind the "leak" to Paul James about Robinson's alleged poor attitude, given that he'll be shedding Robinson's contract shortly.

Beach_Red
10-25-2009, 04:02 PM
This is dead on. If you've worked in corporate culture for any length of time, you'll know how dreadful it is seeing rot set in high up and then watching any quality attached to that corporate culture disappear. Usually, it goes more quickly than the associated profits, which is why it isn't noticed until too late.

MLSE really has a chance to take notice NOW, while the club is still young, and fix things where they start, with Mo. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were behind the "leak" to Paul James about Robinson's alleged poor attitude, given that he'll be shedding Robinson's contract shortly.

Why not higher up? (I know, because it isn't going to happen, but theoretically speaking) If the problem with Mo is the people he hired, what about the people who hired him? If the problem with Mo is that he'll just hire another guy who won't get the job done, won't the guy above him do just the same?

I just spent a year working on a TV show that has a very similar structure to a sports team - we had the network which was like MLSE, the Producer, like Mo and the Showrunner whose job would be like Cummins. This is a public forum, so I can't go into details, but we had our problems much like TFC's (so similar sometimes it's freaky - we even have what's pretty much a salary cap compared to American shows and required number of Canadians on our "roster"). It's not really like corporate structure because we're all short term contracts and there's heavy turnover. We had many discussions about how high up the hcanges had to happen to keep us employed for second season (the show hasn't even aired yet). One thing we never did at our level, of course, was blame ourselves.

This team had the strangest make-up with Brennan as captain, Robsinson as player of the year every year and Dichio as the leader. How can that work? Well, only if the coach is very experienced.

Still, I think you give too much credence to planning. What we're seeing are people who react to things, not plan them. Players are grabbed when they become available and then there's hope they'll fit in - sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

This isn't an expansion team any more, it needs to move on.

ensco
10-25-2009, 04:17 PM
Why not higher up?

I like the idea! But above Mo are only corporate suits (Anselmi, Peddie and the Board of Directors), not soccer people.

Housecleaning on that order of magnitude happens.....never, at least in the case of MLSE.

Roogsy
10-25-2009, 04:21 PM
If TFC is good enough for Dichio, it's good enough for me.

???

Dichio stayed because they are paying him. I am a fan of the man, but his decision to work for TFC says nothing about what TFC will deliver next year, it was a decision to keep his family where he likes to live and where he was able to find employment. IMO that's a poor way to process a decision on whether to renew, based on someone else's employment choices. That's almost like saying you like the Chip Butty's at BMO and that's why you decided to renew.

spark
10-25-2009, 04:22 PM
What we're seeing are people who react to things, not plan them. Players are grabbed when they become available and then there's hope they'll fit in - sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

This isn't an expansion team any more, it needs to move on.

Which is case in point to that Leafs book that recently came out that had the great quote about MLSE's philosophy of "short term solutions for long term problems". When you have an entity whose only objective is to make money now, proper planning never enters the equation because the higher-ups are too impatient.

The result - it's year three and we're basically still at square one.

Beach_Red
10-25-2009, 04:33 PM
Which is case in point to that Leafs book that recently came out that had the great quote about MLSE's philosophy of "short term solutions for long term problems". When you have an entity whose only objective is to make money now, proper planning never enters the equation because the higher-ups are too impatient.

The result - it's year three and we're basically still at square one.

I think it's a mistake to look for long-term solutions. Sports isn't a long-term situation -- too many things happen, career-ending injuries, player just don't work out, fourth round draft picks become stars, etc., there's no way to really plan.

There's no logic to sports. Scotty Bowman is a success in Montreal, he goes to Buffalo and it doesn't work then he goes to Detroit and it works.

Reacting is all you can do. So, you need to be good at it and you need to be lucky.

Beach_Red
10-25-2009, 04:37 PM
???

Dichio stayed because they are paying him. I am a fan of the man, but his decision to work for TFC says nothing about what TFC will deliver next year, it was a decision to keep his family where he likes to live and where he was able to find employment. IMO that's a poor way to process a decision on whether to renew, based on someone else's employment choices. That's almost like saying you like the Chip Butty's at BMO and that's why you decided to renew.

I can't imagine eating a chip butty ;).

I used the Dichio example as a bit of a plea for calm. People here sometimes make it sound like MLSE sacrifice babies and eat their flesh. My feeling was that he offices can't be that bad if he chose to stay with the team. He has other options.

Or maybe he's the kind of guy wh decided he'd try and fix things form within instead of quitting and I like that attitude.

Or, perhaps I have poor decision making skills (though not poor enough that I'll eat a chip butty at BMO ;)).

xj Darrell
10-25-2009, 04:40 PM
Lastly, TFC has seen a number of players leave to go on to success. Even Tyrone Marshall had his detractors with TFC (he could look like a pylon at times) yet he fits nicely into Seattle's system, which minimizes his inadequacies. I think this is the essence of coaching. We haven't had that in 3 years.... you can't expect to just continually get new players to fill inadequacies. That's very difficult in the cap system. This is why I disagree with notions of a radical change in the roster. That just means another season of "getting to know one another". Instead, you need a proven MLS coach who is familiar with the league and what leads to success. A coach who will look at what he's got and say "OK, I may not have this or that, but I'm going to employ a system that maximizes the talent I've got. I'm not going to put players in positions where they can easily fail."

^ I agree. We look so unorganized and are so inconsistent - we could keep acquiring new players to "fix" our shortcomings but this won't work long-term. As stated before, other MLS teams have made more out of teams with less talent.

Zeke_Jones
10-25-2009, 05:27 PM
How about TFC actually finds some decent european (non UK) players????

Nothing against UK players I just dont think the talented ones will come over and make a difference (beckham is an example)

Vitti has flopped so far and with every dollar TFC spends on another Canadian player I have to think they are more interested in making a good (local) team and could care less about building a football team.

ArmenJBX
10-25-2009, 05:39 PM
Yeah, what's wrong with Spanish, German, French, Italian, Brazilian and Portuguese players?! This is Toronto! We have a huge population of different diversities. I can't believe we have such a huge Portuguese population and not a single Portuguese player has graced our shores.

MG42
10-25-2009, 05:40 PM
...It's difficult to fairly asses the culture, mentality and character of the club from such a distant perspective. We're not in the locker room, we don't know the players personally, we really don't know anything about the attitude of most of our players. Yet I still believe that poor team culture, mentality and character lie at the heart of our failure. They are at the root of our inconsistency. I don't see the passion when we win, I don't see the devastation when we lose. ...

FFS Keyman you've got it! As much as we have tried to turn a blind eye to some of MoJo's signings of "bad" teamates, the reality of the situation is now upon us. You're right of course, we don't know exactly who they are but people in the know should be able to shed some light on this for us.

mighty_torontofc_2008
10-25-2009, 05:49 PM
FFS guys, Mo doesn't strap on the boots each week.

DeRo-check
DP-check
Draft Picks (Cronin,White,Frei,etc...)-A+ check

Give the guy a little break. Its not his fault our coach went Bat Shit Insane and left the continent. New coach, new philosophy and this club will be just fine.


yes deRo did a fantastic job in New york yesrterday to cement his player of the year nomination!!! FFS:facepalm: if one person leaves the club first please god let it be DERO.....PLEASE!!

Pookie
10-25-2009, 06:36 PM
Vitti has flopped so far and with every dollar TFC spends on another Canadian player I have to think they are more interested in making a good (local) team and could care less about building a football team.

There's a quota system in the MLS. Canadians need to be on the roster of TFC (and Vancouver when they get here). Internationals and US Internationals have limited positions as well.

ArmenJBX
10-25-2009, 06:37 PM
yes deRo did a fantastic job in New york yesrterday to cement his player of the year nomination!!! FFS:facepalm: if one person leaves the club first please god let it be DERO.....PLEASE!!

Please tell me you're joking.....