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jloome
10-13-2009, 08:15 PM
Had a good sit down and think about our roster and lack of tactical stability this season.
I figure something like this, a modifiedl 5-4-1, would've worked best.
 
-----------------------G-----------------------------
---------------D------D-----D------------------------
WB----------------------------------------WB
-----------M------DM---DM-----M---------------
-------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------S-------------------------

includes: triangle support. flat back three, weak-side defensive fallback, with cover from DM, weak-side counter from opposite mid.
A) When the ball is played via the wings:
the near side wingback takes an attacking role. with the far side fullback dropping back in corresponding fashion.
Play is built via the triangle offense.
If the attacking wingback (WB) receives the ball out of defense but the defense is playing a high line and time is short, the near-side central mid (DM) drops level to offer line support while the near-side mid (M) moves diagonally to the top of the offensive triangle.
The far-side central defensive mid drops line level with the wingback, or a diamond of the bottom of the move if support is needed as the ball progresses up pitch.
Meanwhile, the far-side midfielder (M) stays on that side of the pitch throughout, acting as a weak-side outlet for a fast break on a switch of field, should he be isolated against weaker players. If this move is unsuccessful, he can cycle the ball back via the DM who has dropped into a defensive role, or go wide to his own overlapping wingback.
A play with this formation might progress as follows *(B) denotes ball carrier.
1st third:
----------------------G-------------------------------------
-------D-------------D---------D-----------WB--------
-------------------------------DM-------------------------
WB(B)--------DM-------------------------M----------
----------M-------------------------------------
-------------------------S

mid third, if ball stays wide:
--------G-------------------
-------D----------D------D---------WB--------
-----------------------------------------------------
DM------------------------DM----------------
-------M(B)--------------------------M
WB-------------S--------------------
final third, if ball stays wide:

------------------------G---------------------
--------------------D---------D------WB-------
----------D--------------------------------
-------------------------DM---------------
WB(B)------DM-----------------------M---
--------M------------S------------------

My overall goal with this tactic is to stabilize the defensive system, using a flatback three with farside help from the fullback, and a defensive mid back at all times to act as threat neutralizer, particularly for attacking star players coming through the middle.

Offensively, it utilizes the triangle support system but allows for a change of field in the even that there is a near-side overload and an opportunity to break. The extra far-side mid can also run to the far post on offensive crosses and final third buildups.
 
B) Obviously this raises the question of what happens when teams force the play through the middle. Then, the play unfolds as follows, with players moving into positions that natural support a triangle of support or a diamond. That means the far-side DM drops into the centre of the pitch and takes a forward role:

1st third
--------------------------G---------------------
--------D-----------D-----------D-------WB--
---WB--------------DM1 (b) ------------
----------------M---------------DM2-----------M
--------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------S-----------------------------
mid third
-------------------------G--------------------
---------D-----------D--------D-------WB----------
--------------------------------------------------------
------WB------- DM1------------M----------------
---------------M--------DM2(b)----------------
--------------------S----------------------------------
Final third
-------------------G-----------------------
-----------D----------D-------WB-----
--------------------D---------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-----------------DM1----------------M------------
-------------M-------------DM2(b)-----------------
-------------------WB--------------S-------------
 
If the ball handler in any of the situations makes space and moves forward, this formation allows support beside and ahead of him by moving as a unit, and still leaves the full back line as a final option if there's too much pressure. Plus, because the players are sitauted in triangles relative to the ball position, they can account for any unorthodox movement by the ball carrier by rotating into his coverage space, once he enters their zone, ala total football.

Additionally, the right-side M is available to drift wide and run overlaps with the wingback.

If the DM2 moves up to support the play in the box, the far-side M drops into his space, directly ahead of DM1, allowing one responsible for the linear mid zone and the other the linear final third penetration.
 
Defensively, this is a zonal system with the exception of the most-rear DM picking up the threat player, and the farside M driftig over to cover the DM zone. There's less risk of blown coverage playing it down the flanks and this system relies on: two two-way wingbacks; two defensive mids with speed; two mids who can play both inside and wide and can shoot long; a striker who can hold up the ball when necessary to allow repositioning and who has good lateral movement.

Interplay and movement must be quick, and off the ball movement largely lateral, except for the far-side M who can move liberally to open space on the switch-of-field counter.
 
This tactic takes advantage of our weaknesses and strengths and plays to our strongest squad, and is adaptive defensively because it allos as many as six back against teams that press constantly. Plus, it can be used to break full-field pressure with outlets to either the WB or the M and cross-field switching.
 
-------------------------Frei--------------------------------
-----------Attakora--Gomez--Serioux----------------
Wynne---------------------------------------Fellinga
--------- Derosario--Cronin--JDG--Guevara-----------
----------------- ---Gerba/White------------------------

Prior to getting JDG we could've used Robbo, Sanyang or even Brennan in the second DM role.
Thoughts?
 
 

billyfly
10-13-2009, 08:33 PM
Your post hurts my brain.

TFC FORZA RPB
10-13-2009, 08:52 PM
they can't hold a lead with their current system what makes u think they can hold it with that one

AL-MO
10-13-2009, 09:10 PM
I have always been opposed to 3 at the back, but I think in this situation it may suit us best as you suggest.

jloome
10-13-2009, 09:10 PM
Both stirling offerings, gentleman. Does anyone have anything to stand up to such brilliance?

Al-mo: 5-4-1 allows one fullback/wingback all the time, so it gets away from the traditional problems.

AL-MO
10-13-2009, 09:12 PM
Both stirling offerings, gentleman. Does anyone have anything to stand up to such brilliance?

Al-mo: 5-4-1 allows one fullback/wingback all the time, so it gets away from the traditional problems.

There aren't many people around here that can match your first post. LOL

Damien
10-13-2009, 09:35 PM
I think you posted every tactical system known to man.

In conclusion, Fire Cummins.

Oldtimer
10-13-2009, 10:52 PM
I think you posted every tactical system known to man.

In conclusion, Fire Cummins.

:lol:

Oldtimer
10-13-2009, 10:58 PM
Good post, some great thought there.

I've been giving our tactics some thought, as well.

I actually think our midfield and maybe our forwards are capable of playing a more zonal form of attack.

It would look more like a 4-2-4 formation, with a lot of overlapping moves.

Alas, our defense could not handle such a "total football" system *sigh*.

However, the right coach with some improvement in the D could implement such a thing next year.

Bars92
10-13-2009, 11:08 PM
We need a good 'ol sweeper back there.

werewolf
10-13-2009, 11:16 PM
Your post hurts my brain.

that post would hurt CC's brain...hence why we have 2 wins in 3 months.

uncle p
10-14-2009, 12:52 AM
yeah but where does the meat go?........

Hitcho
10-14-2009, 06:07 AM
It's one thing to come up with intrictae and developed tactics in theory, but you;ve still got to get the players working well in the roles. Three at the back is not easy to play, especially if the CBs are looking for one or other of the wing backs to fall in or push on. They'd be in a constant mess, continually playing attackers onside and no-one really sure what they should be doing.

I'm not saying it's a bad system, I'm saying it's hard to play. England have tried three at the back with top international defenders before and it has always failed miserably. I understand that playing it at club level allows week in and week out training and practice, but the fact that top internationals cannot pull it off shows you how hard it is as a concept. I know NER have done it, so I am not saying it's impossible, and I would agree that MLS strike forces and attacking play falls way below top international standards which puts less pressure on a back three, but I'm still dubious that we could pull it off.

Consider our CB's:

- Garcia: complete liability and no pace to recover from being continually out of position
- Gomez: far too inexperienced to have the positional nous required to pull off a back three
- Nana: great young player but probably the same as Gomez
- Serioux: may be able to pull it off but he's a converted DCM so his natural positional tendency will even drag him around the pitch.

In short, I don't think we have the coaches or the players to pull off a back three. Even if we did, it would likely take a full season to iron out the system and during that time we'd be in a real mess at times defensively. I don't think aiming for that kind of season is a very good plan for TFC right now. We need stability and steady progress, not howlers and experiments.

I do think we have good WBs for that kind of system, because Wynne, Brennan and Fellinga all seem suited to the role and even Cronin or Nana could pull it off if we needed them to, but I just don't think there's any way TFC could pull off a three man back line.

You also need to consider Frei - he's incredibly young and inexperienced and far from offering him extra cover, a sketchy three man back line will likely leave him more exposed, at least for a season while the system is bedded in even if it works long term, and his confidence and development could be seriously impeded by a season like that. There are already complaints that he doesn't command his area well enough, this would only heighten the issue.

Final point - most CBs grow up playing and learning a 4-4-2 system. It is ground into them from an early age. A lot of a CB's role is positioning and an ability to read the game. It comes from experience in most cases rather than raw talent or ability. When you've been playing 4-4-2 from ages 6 to 20 something (ie, right through your formative footballing years) then suddenly swapping to 3 at the back is a huge and difficult transition. At least, it is to do it well and have the system be effective. The other problem is that you need at least four and ideally five CBs in your squad who can pull it off, in case of injuries or suspensions. They all have to get used to playing the system and with each other. Partnerships are important in a 4-4-2 and common understanding is VITAL in a 3 man back line. Getting 4 or 5 CBs who can play the system and be interchanged would be incredibly hard, if not impossible for this club at this level with this kind of coaching.

But again, I'm not knocking the system I am just saying it would be very, very hard to pull off successfully...

ensco
10-14-2009, 06:51 AM
jloome, the main problem with the formation you suggest is that the wingers (DeRo and Guevara) are slower and not natural ballwinners. But I like that you have put them on opposite sides of the field.

I'm also not sure JDG can be a true box-to-box MF (which is how he played it when he's been a dominating presence for the CMNT) in that formation. I think, as you kind of point out, it requires a true DM (ie Robbo/Sanyang)

brad
10-14-2009, 07:39 AM
Honestly, I don't think that complex or non-standard formations are the way to go with this team. Basic 4-4-2 (for the reason Hitcho cites), and deal with the real issues. Deal with the fact that we offer no support for the man in possession and no have zero off the ball movement.

STB
10-14-2009, 08:02 AM
Personally I think the most important thing is to play a formation that the players feel most comfortable. If you grew up playing a 541 with wingbacks then i would agree with the formation but most people grow up with a basic 442.

The problem is TFC does not have the players to actually fit ANY formation properly. No RM or LM, and so every cross you see from a TFC shirt is pants. If you pack the midfield with all of the central midfielders we have then it forces Wynne and Brennan to act as wing backs (like in a 541) and then everyone moans when they are out of position !!

IMO getting rid of the players who cant fit in the fomation is the most important thing for next season. Then have a set formation and stick with it, at least we would have more consistency that way.

Chevy
10-14-2009, 08:04 AM
We need a good 'ol sweeper back there.

Two Words:

Franco.

Baresi.

v00d00daddy
10-14-2009, 08:50 AM
Both stirling offerings, gentleman. Does anyone have anything to stand up to such brilliance?

Al-mo: 5-4-1 allows one fullback/wingback all the time, so it gets away from the traditional problems.


I like the idea jloome.

It's not as complicated as it reads.

Only one thing worries me. Marvell Wynne in this formation. Now this is not meant to be a knock on Wynne but I don't think his game works well with this tactic.

He will be tasked to jump up into the play and connect well with either the DM or a Midfielder...and in some instances, he could be a final third option (whether it be to cross or a ball played to him in the box).

Now, I don't have too much issue with this because I think he has the ability to get up field. I'm not sure if he can, on a consistent basis, link up with one of the midfielders but this isn't the issue I have either.

My issue is the rest of the teams shape when Wynne is running up the wing. Logically, one would assume that the wingbacks will pick their spots to move up field and cover off as a 4th or sometimes 5th defender when necessary. Unfortunately I don't think Wynne is capable of this.

He is so reliant on his speed getting him back into a decent position that he leaves his teammates in the lurch sometimes. Even when he does get back to mark, its often after the attacking players have been afforded a boat load of time to make a decision on what to do with the ball.

That's when we get an early ball played in to the 6 or the 18 and our CB's are left defending people running right at them.

Basically...if you could ensure that Wynne would not extend himself too far I think this formation would work. I've just never seen him able to do so.

Great post, by the way.:)

prizby
10-14-2009, 09:02 AM
you say 2 DM...with 2 WB and 3 CB

doesnt make much sense

------------------Frei-----------------
-------Attakora-Gomez-Serioux--------
Wynne-----------JDG----------Fellinga
-------Cronin----DeRo-----Vitti-------
---------------Gerba------------------

Bench:
Edwards
Gala
new CB
Sanyang
Ibrahim
White
Barrett

Beach_Red
10-14-2009, 09:28 AM
People always seem to put Gerba in these lineups, anyone have any idea why he didn't play on Saturday? Is he injured?

Wooster_TFC
10-14-2009, 10:28 AM
jloome, once again a very well thought out post.

One concern I have with this type of formation is that you are entirely dependent on two offensively-minded midfielders and one weak-side box-to-box midfielder (they aren't DMs in your lineup) to hold off the break on the "strong" side. I'm a little less concerned with the right side because Attakora can slow them down enough for Wynne to catch back up, but more concerned with solid counters down the left side where you'll get stuck with basically the back three with a midfielder on the wrong side of the pitch having to deal with a winger, two strikers, and another winger on the other side.

Wynne is really the only guy on our team with the physical attributes to be a wing back, and he's got zero football IQ. Fellinga looks like he might be a decent wingback, as does Gabe Gala, but I'm not so sure on what they bring to the table on the defensive side. Guevara and DeRo will help with nothing related to the defensive side, and (especially DeRo) likely give the ball up more than they keep it.

The back three (which is what it really ends up being because the weak-side wingback is usually gassed) will have to be bang on both physically and positionally/mentally. Of the folks we currently have, I don't think we have one player that stands up to both (maybe Attakora?). On top of that, you'll need a commanding keeper to keep them all straight and to absolutely own the air around the 6 yard box. Frei is neither right now.

On offense, you'll be playing wide with OBW/Gerba and either DeRo or Guevara in the box. Really, that's not all that menacing an aerial attack, which is what you'll need when you are throwing crosses in from wide. Maybe you go low hard all the time, but then it's easy for the CBs to figure out where to be. Really I don't think we have anyone who's a lone striker on our team, and putting OBW and Gerba on the field at the same time is not going to work.

With the team we currently have, it's very difficult to try and figure out what kind of strategy to run out. We don't have an effective target man, we don't have a leader on the backline, we don't have any natural wingers (okay, maybe two in Brennan and Fellinga, but one of them has to play LB, and Brennan is slowing down). We also have a glut of AMs.

I wouldn't mind a 5-3-1-1 of sorts, playing the same style as you've described, just providing a little more defensive coverage when the wingbacks get caught up field.

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux-----
Wynne------------------------Fellinga
-----------------JDG-----------------
--------Cronin---------Sanyang*------
--------------DeRo------------------
-----------------OBW----------------

*Guevara if you are less concerned about the counter on the left side.

This way, you still have your cover defensively, DeRo is given free role to use his decent work rate to track down balls on the left or right, Cronin and Sanyang are the young, determined ball winners to stop/slow down the counter, Fellinga and Wynne can get forward as wingbacks, and JDG can become a true box-to-box since he has the pace, work rate and off the ball movement required to do so.

Offensively you'll see something like your diagrams, except that JDG will move up through Cronin and Sanyang to become the other support, and DeRo will be running to either the left or right to provide support to the wingback.

Then your weak-side Cronin or Sanyang is the one that plows into the box, and you still have decent cover with the opposite side one moving over to a more central position:

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux------
--------------------------------Fellinga
-----------------Cronin----------------
-------JDG----------------------------
Wynne-----DeRo--------Sanyang------
-----------------OBW-----------------

I'm much happier with a triangle of JDG/DeRo/WB then WB/DM/AM. Only concern with my thoughts is that DeRo, in his free role, needs to always move to the strong side, although I guess you get the strong side Cronin or Sanyang to support to start.

felipe
10-14-2009, 11:35 AM
I like your post, much better than mine which usually read something like, 'stop pickin on CC'

For many of the reasons posted above, I prefer a 4-4-2 or rather a 4-4-1-1. Its solid defensivley and for me makes best use of our best players. Generally, the simpler the better is my advice for tactics. They're professional athletes, not Oxford scholars.

Whenever I see Gomez or Sanyang or OBW put in a starting lineup I always wonder on what basis?

A 4-4-1-1 of

Brennan- Garcia Nana Serioux
Barrett JDG Robbo Cronin
DeRo
Gerba

gives you a solid defense, (and we all know D wins championships) letting DeRo run around centrally (you have to put some restrictions on him, or he'd be kicking it from the parking lot) unencumbered by defensive responsibilities will let him shine, having Gerba hold up the ball up top should work wonders.

Yes, offensively its boring, but that midfield should be able to keep the ball for the majority of the match. Every mid there has movement and knows their defensive responsibilities. Cronin gets forward occasionaly and does all right.

Our D doesn't give you much going forward either, but both Brennan and Barrett are bright enough to create some good combination play on the wing.

But the whole thing would be totally dependent on DeRo providing imagination on a nightly basis

To really make it work well you'd need a tough smart tall fearless grizzled target player - wonder where we can find one of those? I think Gerba can play the role in his own way effectively enough though.

And probably a true winger, quick, tricky, terrifying defences - I believe Barrett can be that player - but I'm in the minority.

And defiently an upgrade at dc. Garcia is not nearly as bad as everyone thinks - but the one player we've always needed is a stud at DC.

But, I don't think we have the players to play your system. We'd need two more centrebacks! (Assuming Nana could handle a part) Its been three years and we've never really had one.

And Guevera and DeRo I'm convinced can't play as effectively together as they do apart. And if you saddle them with defensive responsibilities - we're fucked. The way they play (dropping off, finding space, taking risks) necessitates a certain amount of freedom from those kind of roles.

My two cents anyways

jloome
10-14-2009, 11:51 AM
Good points all gents!

Hitch, I agree it's a tough thing for players raised in 442 to get used to. I was hoping that by playing the back three flat and having a wingback hangback throughout it might play more like a 442 defensively, but a 5-41- offensively.

As you say NER used it effectively, and we had a flat three for two games this season, the first if I recall was the win against DC here. So it's a discipline issue, to me.

----

Wooster, I see the issue on the strong side. Part of using the triangle spread was to ensure the players are rotating into the slots behind the mids and FB carrying the wing play to account for that. But it is the "hole", as it were. My feeling is it's somewaht mitigated by a flat back four. You may be caught a man short on the strong side break, but you won't have empty space back there for their wingers to exploit.

-----
Felipe, I know you like Garcia, but from what I've see of the two, Gomez would start over him every week. To each their own, eh mate? But I think Garcia is a casualty of the league's improvement and his own age.

---

Voodoo, I thought of that. If you notice, the weak side WB always stays back. He never ventures forward. That allows the strong side centre half to slide over and cover the spot of the WB who is attacking, and the rest of the defense rotates concurrently.
---
Chev, Bars, sorry guys, but sweepers don't work anymore. People just run positional switches with the key attacker (ala the total football model). It's why very few teams every deploy a sweeper anymore. But I like the concept of marking up the main man, IF you can still protect the backline from overlaps, which is why one of my DMs holds back for that role.

---
Ensco, if you look at how a triangle system would run, they wouldn't be wingers, they'd be inside most of the time, although yes, there are occasions on the overlap where we'd have Amado on the byline. he's pretty tricky on the dribble when he wants to be.
---
Oldtimer, my thought exactly! The idea of this is to take the positioanl switching and support from total football, but only apply it to the mids, wb and forwards, leaving three defenders and one wb back at all times, so that we have a fluid offensive unit, but a very stable, locked-down defensive zone.
---

To me, the biggest problem something like this faces is Hitch's point, which is that it takes a lot to get players to learn a totally new system. I also see validity in concerns that the near-side(strongside) could become overwhelmed defensively.

But I'd also suggest those two concerns are lesser than not having a functioning and effective system at all, which would seem to be the case for the last three seasons! Plus, we've had zero defensive or posiitonal stability, and this (assuming we can get another decent centre half) is a reasonably easy formation to accomodate, week-to-week, based on absences, injuries etc.

jloome
10-14-2009, 11:56 AM
jloome, once again a very well thought out post.

One concern I have with this type of formation is that you are entirely dependent on two offensively-minded midfielders and one weak-side box-to-box midfielder (they aren't DMs in your lineup) to hold off the break on the "strong" side. I'm a little less concerned with the right side because Attakora can slow them down enough for Wynne to catch back up, but more concerned with solid counters down the left side where you'll get stuck with basically the back three with a midfielder on the wrong side of the pitch having to deal with a winger, two strikers, and another winger on the other side.

Wynne is really the only guy on our team with the physical attributes to be a wing back, and he's got zero football IQ. Fellinga looks like he might be a decent wingback, as does Gabe Gala, but I'm not so sure on what they bring to the table on the defensive side. Guevara and DeRo will help with nothing related to the defensive side, and (especially DeRo) likely give the ball up more than they keep it.

The back three (which is what it really ends up being because the weak-side wingback is usually gassed) will have to be bang on both physically and positionally/mentally. Of the folks we currently have, I don't think we have one player that stands up to both (maybe Attakora?). On top of that, you'll need a commanding keeper to keep them all straight and to absolutely own the air around the 6 yard box. Frei is neither right now.

On offense, you'll be playing wide with OBW/Gerba and either DeRo or Guevara in the box. Really, that's not all that menacing an aerial attack, which is what you'll need when you are throwing crosses in from wide. Maybe you go low hard all the time, but then it's easy for the CBs to figure out where to be. Really I don't think we have anyone who's a lone striker on our team, and putting OBW and Gerba on the field at the same time is not going to work.

With the team we currently have, it's very difficult to try and figure out what kind of strategy to run out. We don't have an effective target man, we don't have a leader on the backline, we don't have any natural wingers (okay, maybe two in Brennan and Fellinga, but one of them has to play LB, and Brennan is slowing down). We also have a glut of AMs.

I wouldn't mind a 5-3-1-1 of sorts, playing the same style as you've described, just providing a little more defensive coverage when the wingbacks get caught up field.

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux-----
Wynne------------------------Fellinga
-----------------JDG-----------------
--------Cronin---------Sanyang*------
--------------DeRo------------------
-----------------OBW----------------

*Guevara if you are less concerned about the counter on the left side.

This way, you still have your cover defensively, DeRo is given free role to use his decent work rate to track down balls on the left or right, Cronin and Sanyang are the young, determined ball winners to stop/slow down the counter, Fellinga and Wynne can get forward as wingbacks, and JDG can become a true box-to-box since he has the pace, work rate and off the ball movement required to do so.

Offensively you'll see something like your diagrams, except that JDG will move up through Cronin and Sanyang to become the other support, and DeRo will be running to either the left or right to provide support to the wingback.

Then your weak-side Cronin or Sanyang is the one that plows into the box, and you still have decent cover with the opposite side one moving over to a more central position:

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux------
--------------------------------Fellinga
-----------------Cronin----------------
-------JDG----------------------------
Wynne-----DeRo--------Sanyang------
-----------------OBW-----------------

I'm much happier with a triangle of JDG/DeRo/WB then WB/DM/AM. Only concern with my thoughts is that DeRo, in his free role, needs to always move to the strong side, although I guess you get the strong side Cronin or Sanyang to support to start.

That's pretty clever. It gets around the problem of both DMs having to jump up if the play is forced centrally. You just let Dero Switch field.

Also gets around the problem of having the strong side collapse on the break because there's always an extra defensive mid who can slide over.

Still has the same issue as mine, which is that the centre-halfs have to get used to sliding over as a unit and the WBs have to be very patient on the weak side. But you're right, it might be more fluid with respect to allowing the mids to carry the play instead of the WB.

prizby
10-14-2009, 12:00 PM
Wooster_TFC - don't think sanyang can play that far up, he's a DM at best

jloome
10-14-2009, 12:03 PM
Wooster_TFC - don't think sanyang can play that far up, he's a DM at best


He's just talking about the final third, as a weak-side overlap, like Cronin did a few times this year.

Hard to say. His ball skills look decent. We haven't seen him take a shot yet, so who knows?

prizby
10-14-2009, 12:08 PM
he has already shown his ill discipline (the 2 yellows in one game)...not sure about his offensive game if he can't even be discipline defensively

CoachGT
10-14-2009, 12:11 PM
The question of a team learning a new system is a major issue. But it can be lessened by the natural tendancies of the players. If you can look at a role and immediately see who fits in, based upon their style of play and unique attributes, draw upon the similarities with the systems in use today (and there will always be some similarities) then it is just getting the differences in place.

An issue with our capabilities today is that players revert to their natural form during games. It appears to me, both from the comments made in the media and in the training sessions that I've seen and heard about, that a considerable amount of effort is spent trying to keep players forward. The natural instinct of players, though, once you have a lead, especially one that has been hard fought, is to fall back. Not necessarily to play a "prevent" defence, but not far from it. If players fall back to their instincts now, introducing a new system might only complicate things.

torontocelt
10-14-2009, 12:27 PM
Martin O'Neils Celtic used the same system apart from we utilized two strikers and one attacking midfielder.

Douglas

Mjallby - Balde - Valgarhean

Agathe - Lennon - Lambert/ Petrov - Thompson

Petrov/ Sutton

Larsson - Sutton / Hartson

The back line were giants, perfect for the Scottish game as they could not be outmuscled, were relatively fast, had good positioning and had a lot of height for high balls. Lennon and Lambert would break up any attacks down the middle and retain possession. Agathe was a speed demon which was perfect for the wing back position but he was a hopeless crosser. Thompson had a magic left foot, great for crosses and would score goals also. Petrov was a box to box midfielder who would chip in with a lot of goals and would help link midfield with attack. Sutton and Hartson provided height, muscle, goals and clever football brains to unsettle defenders and create space for Larsson. Larsson was just incredible but he was a tireless worker, tracking back and running the flanks to find space whilst also scoring a bucket load, he was amazing.

This system is very similar to yours except with far better players. Celtic would still get caught out against the crop of Europe though usually with balls played in behind the attacking full backs, this would commit one of the centre three out wide which in turn would destabilize the centre of the defence. When you were up against two clinical strikers like you are usually in the champs league plus an attacking midfielder breaking into the box you find yourself out numbered and in a panic. I would be unconvinced having Gerba up front on his own as he is not mobile and would be a sitting duck offering very little. For a big guy he should be able to retain possession but he isn't a very good player and does not put in what I would consider a decent shift. De Ro and Gueverra I find try to play in the same positions when on the field which would leave gaps there, I think both struggle to stay out wide as both like to play in the middle. TFC is not very good in the air and the defence is not well organised so I would fear crosses into the box if a wing back was exposed and a centre back had to go out wide.

Every system has its weaknesses no matter what it is and they can be exposed by a good manager and good players. TFC does not have a good manager, the team isn't well organised and the players are not fantasically gifted. Greece were a perfect example of an organised team with a good manager who accomplished way more than they should have, Porto to a certain degree also although they had better players. It is amazing what a good manager can do, first and foremost TFC needs a good manager.

Hitcho
10-14-2009, 12:37 PM
Good points all gents!

Hitch, I agree it's a tough thing for players raised in 442 to get used to. I was hoping that by playing the back three flat and having a wingback hangback throughout it might play more like a 442 defensively, but a 5-41- offensively.

As you say NER used it effectively, and we had a flat three for two games this season, the first if I recall was the win against DC here. So it's a discipline issue, to me.



I agree with you as a general point (ie, it's something that can be overcome if you work at it enough). Having said that, there are two reasons why i don't think it's a good fit for TFC right now: first, we don't have the players in the line up right now to make a flat back three a viable option (see above for the reasons); and second, I think we need to adopt a defensive system that can settle and work from pre-season onwards in 2010, because the club needs a more stable season defensively (especially in the final 15 mins of games!) and Frei needs to be protected as much as possible while he is developing his game.

Of course, this could all change if we were to get in Nicol over the winter and he picked up at least one and ideally two decent centre halves who can play in a back three as part of his squad changes, letting go of Garcia in the process. In that scenario, with a coach who knows how to make the system work and better, more suited personnel, the back three could work next season. But that's not very likely, is it?! :D

EDIT - of course, any new coach may bring in a couple of pacey, productive wingers and then we'd be in 4-4-2 heaven and the 3 man back line would be up in smoke!

Wooster_TFC
10-14-2009, 12:41 PM
Wooster_TFC - don't think sanyang can play that far up, he's a DM at best


The diagram didn't show it very well, but that's exactly what I want Cronin and Sanyang (or those positions) to be in this formation. The two guys that are playing the ball-winning positions need to have the physical ability to run around the field, and have a little bit of presence moving forward.

JDG is NOT intended to be a DM in this diagram, solely a box-to-box. At the same time, I want everything going through JDG. When you are in the 1st third, JDG needs to be there, along with one of the two DMs, and the WB to make the triangle. In the second third and final third, you have a mix of JDG/DM/WB, and JDG/DeRo/WB with the DM dropping off for support, and to block the counter.

I put Sanyang and Cronin in those roles because I don't think Guevara has the drive and determination (or the pace) to do it the entire game. Robinson just doesn't have the pace.

So, it would look something like this:

1st third, ball on right side (you can flip it to see what left side would look like):

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux-----
-------------------------------Fellinga
--Wynne--------JDG------------------
---------Cronin----------------Sanyang
---------------------------------------
---------DeRo-------------------------
---------------------------------------
-----------------OBW-----------------

Middle Third:

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux-----
-------------------------------Fellinga
--------------------------------------
----------Cronin----------------------
--------JDG--------------Sanyang----
--Wynne---DeRo----------------------
--------------------------------------
-----------------OBW-----------------

Final Third:

-----------------Frei-----------------
-----Attakora---Gomez---Serioux-----
--------------------------------------
-------------------------------Fellinga
--------------------------------------
--------------Cronin-------------------
---JDG--------------------------------
---------DeRo-----------Sanyang-----
--Wynne--------OBW-----------------

You've got lots of options to modify the movement up the field.

Now, having both Cronin and Sanyang in those positions is probably not the best, and I want to get a younger Robinson-type in one of those, and have Cronin start, and Sanyang be a backup, but you lay out what you've got. I don't trust Guevara or DeRo enough to be the ball winner, and I don't trust any of our ball winners enough to handle the ball, hence JDG coming all the way back to get the ball, and moving through the DMs.

As coach (and some others) point out, the discussion is probably rather useless this late in the season, but it's interesting for how things could happen next year. But, new coach, new personnel and it's a whole new ballgame (but I still like the discussions :))

mlsintoronto
10-14-2009, 12:48 PM
wow. a reasoned discussion on RPB....with well though out point and counterpoint...

has RPB jumped the shark?

is it a slow-conspiracy-theory week?

I kid...this is an interesting thread. I won't wade in since that would only betray my ignorance. But I'm reading with interest.

pb

jloome
10-14-2009, 12:51 PM
wow. a reasoned discussion on RPB....with well though out point and counterpoint...

has RPB jumped the shark?

is it a slow-conspiracy-theory week?

I kid...this is an interesting thread. I won't wade in since that would only betray my ignorance. But I'm reading with interest.

pb

Yeah, well, I figured if we were gonna discuss speculative crap, it might as well be speculative crap about football.:drinking:

Hitcho
10-14-2009, 12:56 PM
wow. a reasoned discussion on RPB....with well though out point and counterpoint...

has RPB jumped the shark?

is it a slow-conspiracy-theory week?

I kid...this is an interesting thread. I won't wade in since that would only betray my ignorance. But I'm reading with interest.

pb

This is why you really have the best fans in the league behind you Paul, unchecked passion and boundless footballing knowledge. Priceless.

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

jloome
10-14-2009, 02:00 PM
This is why you really have the best fans in the league behind you Paul, unchecked passion and boundless footballing knowledge. Priceless.

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

Plus, we all like beer. Hmmmmmm.......beeeer.

Preferably stinky euro beer.

trane
10-14-2009, 02:16 PM
^ I have hoped to see a similar system for weeks ( months) now, or versions of it. It is not difficulat to play, the only ones that would need adjousting are the WBs everyone else woudl do what they usualy do, and Felinga has shown ability and willingenss to go up, and Wynne LOVES to go up, to the detriment of his defense, a system would play to his stenghts.


There is nothing complicated about it. Many peopel that have observed the team have thought about it. The disapointing thins is that Cummins has kept away from it, for the most part.

jloome
10-14-2009, 03:10 PM
^ I have hoped to see a similar system for weeks ( months) now, or versions of it. It is not difficulat to play, the only ones that would need adjousting are the WBs everyone else woudl do what they usualy do, and Felinga has shown ability and willingenss to go up, and Wynne LOVES to go up, to the detriment of his defense, a system would play to his stenghts.


There is nothing complicated about it. Many peopel that have observed the team have thought about it. The disapointing thins is that Cummins has kept away from it, for the most part.

It woudl certainly take an adjustment period, but this isn't Catenaccio, we're not talking about abandoning a flat back line for a sweeper. It's not archaic.

trane
10-14-2009, 06:08 PM
^ Agreed. Although you know that I would be all for Catenaccio, althought our players have not shown enough discipline for it. :yum:

A period of adjustment for sure, getting the overlaps down, but CBs play like CBs, the Full Backs play like full backs but are allowed to go up, again all our full backs are willing and prety good at that. DMs play like DMs, AMs like AMs, Strikers as Strikers. It would work.

AL-MO
10-14-2009, 06:41 PM
wow. a reasoned discussion on RPB....with well though out point and counterpoint...

has RPB jumped the shark?

is it a slow-conspiracy-theory week?

I kid...this is an interesting thread. I won't wade in since that would only betray my ignorance. But I'm reading with interest.

pb

Its okay, I am sure Jloome wouldn't mind you passing on some of this to Mo and CC. :p

trane
10-14-2009, 07:05 PM
Jloome, if they want a more traditional, sorta meaning closer to 4-4-2, then I would not mind 4-3-1-2, allowing, ussing our strenght at DM, and allowing teh fullbacks to come up one at a time while always controling the center of the pitch.


--------------S/Gerba-------S/OBW------------

--------------------AM/De Ro-----------------

-----DM/Sanyang----DM/JDG-----DM/Cronin

Felinga-------------------------------------Wynne(Serioux)

-------------Attakora----Gomez(Serioux)-----------

While I do not think the 5-4-1 would be complicated and I like it, this may be even simipler to established. They just have to maker sure, that one of the Full Backs come up at the time, and the 3 DM would fill in the spave created. The DM shuold also attack one at the time, keep the triangle cetral, the DMs and one full bakc at the time in support.

De Ro would be the center of the attack, and most of the play would start from JDG, if it is not comming from the wings. Even then JDG could lay it out to one of the backs comming up. For example this what would look in the their half with the the RB comming up, fed by JDG or otherwise. the Strikers and De Ro would be in the box, De Ro just a bit back for space, waiting for the pass/cross, JDG just behind, waiting for the reset pass if needed, the other Full Back and the DMs just beyond the mid field to support and stop the counter, while the CBs are still in our half. It would stay simple and ballanced. Once the RB delivers the ball he should move back leagin one/or more of the DMs to come forward deeper if necessary, always keepins at least for well behind the attack to avoid easy counters.



-----------S-------------S-----------------RB
----------------AM--------------------------
-----------------------------CDM------------
LB-------------DM-------------------DM------

---------CB-------------CB--------------------

jloome
10-14-2009, 07:08 PM
Jloome, if they want a more traditional, sorta meaning closer to 4-4-2, then I would not mind 4-3-1-2, allowing, ussing our strenght at DM, and allowing teh fullbacks to come up one at a time while always controling the center of the pitch.


--------------S/Gerba-------S/OBW------------

--------------------AM/De Ro-----------------

-----DM/Sanyang----DM/JDG-----DM/Cronin

Felinga-------------------------------------Wynne(Serioux)

-------------Attakora----Gomez(Serioux)-----------

While I do not think the 5-4-1 would be complicated and I like it, this may be even simipler to established. They just have to maker sure, that one of the Full Backs come up at the time, and the 3 DM would fill in the spave created. The DM shuold also attack one at the time, keep the triangle cetral, the DMs and one full bakc at the time in support.

Not sure if you push up your fullbacks in this that you won't be exposed to the switch-of-field, as you'd only usually have three back at most, although I suppose it depends how deep the holder sits in the midfield.

jloome
10-14-2009, 07:11 PM
Its okay, I am sure Jloome wouldn't mind you passing on some of this to Mo and CC. :p

Somehow, I doubt this is something they haven't considered

trane
10-14-2009, 07:17 PM
Not sure if you push up your fullbacks in this that you won't be exposed to the switch-of-field, as you'd only usually have three back at most, although I suppose it depends how deep the holder sits in the midfield.

See above, I explaiend what I would expect the DMs to fill and always keep 4 back relatively deep and spaced across.

trane
10-14-2009, 07:25 PM
Somehow, I doubt this is something they haven't considered

I hope you are right. But sometimes I have to wonder.