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View Full Version : Critical Academy Question, Please Answer Honestly.



[NBF]
10-06-2009, 11:18 AM
The TFC Academy takes in kids and loses kids every year, but where they go from there is my question. If a kid is not good enough to crack the 1st team roster, they're only other option is to go to University(if they have the grades).

The academy kids have a chance to go to university, but if they sign with a professional club, they can lose eligibility to become a student-player.

:picard:Question: So whats the use of an academy if its not for depth?

Is it to have better community relations and expose the game further in the community( Creating young TFC fans for the future).



Observation: If you have 21 of 24 spots filled on your roster and you're allowed 20 senior contract players and 4 developmental contract players, that means that 3 spots are available for any academy player to "fully" graduate from the academy and be training at the very least at the pro level.

:drum:

Edit: Further explaining the question:picard:(FFS!)

A.) Apparently nobody understood that by saying TFC Academy I meant TFC's Academy.

B.) If we dont have a full roster(20 senior contract players + 4 developmental contract players), why doesn't TFC pick graduates from its TFC Academy to fill the 4 developmental spots?(Currently only Gabe Gala is a developmental player)

C.) Wouldn't you want to have a full roster of players? Especially if you want to build team chemistry???? How does 11 vs. 9 work???? You wonder why the chemistry sucks right now is because the roster is not full.

sulfur
10-06-2009, 11:21 AM
Keep in mind that Gabe Gala is a university student (UofT) and part of the TFC first team.

Shaughno
10-06-2009, 11:22 AM
It's my understanding you cannot actively play professional and play with the University.

Parkdale
10-06-2009, 11:26 AM
;745227']
Question: So whats the use of an academy if its not for depth?


it could be argued that it's for 'development of the sport and youth talent'.
you know.... giving back to the community.



Starting next year the MLS is following a bit of world soccer and starting MLS youth programs for each MLS team. This is something entirely new in US professional sports, and I think it will be a great benefit for the MLS all around.
The youth system works like this. Young players that live in an MLS home area for at least 1 year can join their youth teams. Each MLS team will have 6 different aged teams, from U15 to U25. As long as a player is the member of a youth team for 2 years, they can be signed to that MLS team without the team having to draft them.
This youth system can do nothing but good for the MLS and American soccer in general in my opinion. Teams will have a wider base of players to choose from, it will give players access to professional coaches that they might not otherwise have, it will create more home-town players in the MLS, and none of this will effect NCAA eligibility for any of the players who do not move onto the MLS before they could play college soccer.
Its nice to see the MLS taking a bit from world soccer. Most world soccer teams have similar youth systems. Manchester United probably had one of the best classes of players from their own youth system when they won the treble in 1999 (http://www.manutdtreble.com/the_treble.htm). Players such as David Becham and Paul Scholes came up from the Manchester United youth system. Without such youth system, you may well have never heard the phrase “Bend it like Beckham”.
Well done MLS. I fully expect to see the MLS become a respected league throughout the world and see the US national team win a world cup in my lifetime!

http://www.mlsfanblog.com/mls-youth-systems/

ballerz
10-06-2009, 11:28 AM
But is Gabe Gala playing on the varsity team? There is nothing wrong with a professional athlete going to school.

Rudi
10-06-2009, 11:28 AM
It's my understanding you cannot actively play professional and play with the University.
Players can be on the developmental roster and still play CIS.

This is how Gala, Attakora, Djekanovic and a few others were able to play CIS ball and still be on the TFC roster. Lombardo was on the senior roster and was ineligible to play for York (but still did), costing them four wins and one year of his eligibility.

jloome
10-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Lombardo's playing in the Australian second division now.

Boy, that kid got way more stick than he deserved. He was a target man and was never gonna be much of a finisher, but with him often being our only fallback at the time, he was under way too much pressure to be a goal scorer.

CoachGT
10-06-2009, 01:13 PM
We're still in the early stages of having an academy. This is the chance to identify prospects and put them into a situation where they can develop their skills. Will all of them make the roster? Probably not, but if one or two good prospects can make their way through, then that is a good thing.

Eventually, we might see the same sort of development that you see from European academies. Relatively few make it through all the way to the top rosters, but some do. They've had the chance to get an education in the sport. Good prospects look to the academy as a means to an end - much the same way that future NHLers look at Canadian junior hockey leagues. Go back 30 years and all of the junior teams were owned by NHL teams (Kitchener Rangers, Toronto Marlies and so on).

It is a development/feeder system, nothing more. No guarantees that you'll get anything more from a player than a couple of good years on the academy team, but every once in a while, you hope that a gem comes along.

I think as pertinent a question is whether players like DeRo, De Guzman and other Canadians would have seen an academy in Toronto as a viable development option when they were growing up.

AL-MO
10-06-2009, 01:14 PM
Is this a question specifically about MLS and its clubs academies? Or just a general question about the purpose of a club having an academy?

If its just a general one, I think the answer is rather obvious....to develop players for the first team!

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
10-06-2009, 01:21 PM
as far as i understand....any club in the world can come a scoop any TFC academy players if they desire....without a fee to tfc????

OUr league has to find a way to protect these rising stars in its academy's....to the point if a club comes in looking for a player....that the team will at least be compensated $$$$..

Section 117
10-06-2009, 01:38 PM
Lombardo's playing in the Australian second division now.

Boy, that kid got way more stick than he deserved. He was a target man and was never gonna be much of a finisher, but with him often being our only fallback at the time, he was under way too much pressure to be a goal scorer.

Really?? I saw him in Vaughan Mills working. I am suprised no one in the A League had a look at him

He did get more stick than he deserved he is a wide player not a target man. But from my understanding the FO does not rate Canadian players highly. Obviously with the exception of a few players that we have signed.

Shaughno
10-06-2009, 01:54 PM
I was one of a few people who actually stuck up for Lombardo on a regular basis. He was overused and in the wrong positions. His best game was when he played a wide attacking role against Villa... LOL fancy that.

Parkdale
10-06-2009, 02:05 PM
yep... people were expecting way too much from Lombardo.
I'm not saying that he'sa great player, or that he would make the current squad,
but he was used improperly, not coached effectively and was part of a losing team.

he made some bad mistakes, but he sure as hell wasn't the only one making them.

Roogsy
10-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Ditto on the criticism for Lombardo. I felt sorry for the kid. An average players on a crappy squad used ineffectively by someone who really wasn't a coach.

What exactly were people expecting from him?

Beach_Red
10-06-2009, 02:09 PM
Ditto on the criticism for Lombardo. I felt sorry for the kid. An average players on a crappy squad used ineffectively by someone who really wasn't a coach.

What exactly were people expecting from him?


He might be back someday, right?

Rudi
10-06-2009, 02:10 PM
Lombardo's playing in the Australian second division now.
Different Lombardo.

Parkdale
10-06-2009, 02:33 PM
Different Lombardo.

then the mistake is on his Wikipedia entry too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Lombardo

Andrea Lombardo (born May 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_23), 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987) in North York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_York,_Ontario), Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto), Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario)) is an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians)-Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian) soccer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29) player who is currently playing for Whittlesea Zebras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittlesea_Zebras).

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-06-2009, 03:25 PM
The TFC needs a reserve team playing in the CSL instead of an academy team (maybe they'd be better in the OSL or Super Y). It would a place for the reserves to play, a place for players to graduate from the U18 academy team to play for a year or two to get ready for the senior team, and a place to a few older prospects (the like of John Hurtis and Lammie). The Whitecaps use their PDL team this way, as both a top team for their youth setup and as a reserve squad, and the Impact are moving towards this model with Attak.

ArmenJBX
10-06-2009, 04:19 PM
I have a classmate who plays on the TFC Junior academy. Well, he moved schools but I keep in touch.

Rudi
10-06-2009, 04:21 PM
then the mistake is on his Wikipedia entry too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Lombardo

Andrea Lombardo (born May 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_23), 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987) in North York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_York,_Ontario), Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto), Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario)) is an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians)-Canadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian) soccer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_%28soccer%29) player who is currently playing for Whittlesea Zebras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittlesea_Zebras).
It is a wiki mistake.

There was a discussion about this a few weeks back at either the U-Sector or Voyageurs boards.

Shway
10-06-2009, 06:21 PM
The TFC needs a reserve team playing in the CSL instead of an academy team (maybe they'd be better in the OSL or Super Y). It would a place for the reserves to play, a place for players to graduate from the U18 academy team to play for a year or two to get ready for the senior team, and a place to a few older prospects (the like of John Hurtis and Lammie). The Whitecaps use their PDL team this way, as both a top team for their youth setup and as a reserve squad, and the Impact are moving towards this model with Attak.


I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS
Glad someone else is mentioning this

They need to put a U-23 squad in the PDL division.
For players to keep form, and when they are needed they are still capable of being game shape.For instance where does a player like Ashton Morgan go, if he has potential, but didnt go to NCAA because of grades. His career is basically done, and thats the way i look at it, your career is done if you havent signed to a university in the states by your last academy year. And its sad to say that he will probaly never get a legit opportunity

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-06-2009, 06:30 PM
There's an obvious need some sort of bridge between the academy team (esp. if the top level is going to be U18) and the senior team. TFC also needs some form of reserve team playing regular matches.

There's a new rule where a team can carry two extra development spots, as long as the players don't play in MLS games - that would be perfect for a player like Ashton Morgan. Get some minutes with the senior team in a competitive context (Canadian Cup games, friendlies, CCL games) and continue to develop.

Shway
10-06-2009, 06:39 PM
Another example would be from Kyle Hall's stand point. He was drafted by TFC basically for the hell of it. If there was a Reserve team, he could have played there and have gotten a legit chance to prove himself.

Another example would be from OBW. He was injuried, and when he was considered to play , i personally think its a bit of a shock to put him in to play an MLS game, with having played anytime before. Not even the best players in the world, get to come back into a first team regular season game, without having a reserve game in them. If this was the case for OBW, he wouldnt look the way he is now, his confidence would be up, and he wouldnt look slow as he is today, and wouldve gained his college form back. FACT

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-06-2009, 06:47 PM
I'd like to think that the powers that be at the team are working on the reserve team problem, might be an issue of the league's constrictive rules rather than the team's desire.

Shway
10-06-2009, 06:52 PM
thats what they want us all to think....its the leagues fault
is it the leagues fault why the academy is literally called the `TFC Academy`,
and have unofficial kits

UltraSuperMegaMo
10-06-2009, 06:56 PM
I'm willing to give them some time. I'm actually impressed with the quality of the academy team's and their staffs.

The real problem is that the academies in the MLS are never going to be the primary means of player development as long as there's a draft. I actually think the leagues secret agenda is to use the academies as means to produce better NCAA college players.

scooter
10-06-2009, 07:02 PM
hear you but its better than what we had a few years back
lets keep up the discussion but positive to keep improving the opportunities for players
i blows my find to think of how many good canadian players dropped out of this sport because there was no opportunity to play
more $$ are needed but i hope with 3 canadian mls teams all with development programs we can really bring along a lot more players and not just to feed the main team how about mens and womens national teams

scooter
10-06-2009, 07:04 PM
oh and yes lets not forget about developing the young ladies
girls soccer rocks
canada should have a super wnt in a few years

TFC07
10-06-2009, 07:05 PM
I'm willing to give them some time. I'm actually impressed with the quality of the academy team's and their staffs.

The real problem is that the academies in the MLS are never going to be the primary means of player development as long as there's a draft. I actually think the leagues secret agenda is to use the academies as means to produce better NCAA college players.

Bingo! Hopefully TFC does a good job of producing players. We need more Canadian kids in the draft.

T_Mizz
10-06-2009, 07:18 PM
I think specifically with regards to TFC, we are at a disadvantage because many other academies have U-20s and U-23s in some cases. They have that bridge that people have been talking about.

denime
10-06-2009, 08:37 PM
Give them some time FFS, club is only 3 years old academies 2.
MLS Academy Rules Book is 3 INCHES THICK,TFC has to follow all those rules.

"TFC is not in business of producing NCAA players,TFC is in the business of developing future TFC players,period."S.Neely,TFC Academy Manager (last Saturday at Coaches open house)

Both Academy teams are going to Independent private school,so to talk about not having grades for University is joke.

If player signs prof contract with TFC and wants to carry on with his education TFC will organize the educational program around the schedule.

This year TFC Academy program will cost $700K,next year over 1Mil,they are going in to the right direction.Next step is U14 and as you know Youth development program for U6 to U12 started already this summer.
TFC wants to concentrate on GTA and Ontario first and foremost when it comes to development programs,don't expect Residential program like Vancouver has it(we where told that too on Saturday).
Over 400K registered players in Ontario they are very confident they will be able to find enough talent for their academies.

PDL,CSL same sh*t,why waste $ on traveling.

Azerban
10-06-2009, 09:34 PM
i actually saw lombardo play last weekend

he even contributed positively to a winning result




crazy, i know

prizby
10-06-2009, 10:09 PM
But is Gabe Gala playing on the varsity team? There is nothing wrong with a professional athlete going to school.

Once the TFC season was finished (last season), yes he was on the UofT varsity squad, both him and Kilian Elikson or w.e his name was. Kilian played left back while Gala played left mid. Because I am answer this question, I am now going to go on a rant! I go to Laurentian, it was reading week and our playoff game was at UofT, so I went down to support my boys and to my surprise 2 TFC players were playing. Now the reason is simple, they were signed on developmental contracts (and I believe neither of them ever saw any regular season game action). Cuz of these two guys, they ended up beating Laurentian 2-1, both goals set up by Gala, one of the goals, Gala hand balled the ball at half and got a nice advantage of it and made a sweet cross...we had some plug of a ref (the same ref we had, had the previous week), the other goal, one of our players was fully taken out and the ref was looking the other way and gala took the ball up and made another cross...Lombardo on the other hand was on a senior contract and had played in 2008, so when he played for york, it was against the rules...the stupid RMC coach put a complaint in 4 games into the season and York benched lombardo afterwards and it was found that he couldn't play so York had to forfeit the 4 games - they still ended up cleaning up, winning the OUA West with an 8 win, 4 loss, 1 tie record...surprisingly they lost the oua championship, but went on to win the CIS championship...one of the York coaches was a former Laurentian player..I was talking to him this year, and they would have kept playing Lombardo had no one complained...so the stupid RMC coach who is in the OUA east, never was gonna play york, never was going to make the playoffs, saved york from having to forfeit everygame this season and thus thanks to him, york won the CIS championship

wow that was a long rant!

Shway
10-06-2009, 10:27 PM
Give them some time FFS, club is only 3 years old academies 2.
MLS Academy Rules Book is 3 INCHES THICK,TFC has to follow all those rules.

"TFC is not in business of producing NCAA players,TFC is in the business of developing future TFC players,period."S.Neely,TFC Academy Manager (last Saturday at Coaches open house)

Both Academy teams are going to Independent private school,so to talk about not having grades for University is joke.

If player signs prof contract with TFC and wants to carry on with his education TFC will organize the educational program around the schedule.

This year TFC Academy program will cost $700K,next year over 1Mil,they are going in to the right direction.Next step is U14 and as you know Youth development program for U6 to U12 started already this summer.
"TFC wants to concentrate on GTA and Ontario first and foremost when it comes to development programs,don't expect Residential program like Vancouver has it(we where told that too on Saturday).
Over 400K registered players in Ontario they are very confident they will be able to find enough talent for their academies."

PDL,CSL same sh*t,why waste $ on traveling.

:facepalm:

thats the shit they want you to buy into.
that its not neccessary.

If TFC wants to concentrate on GTA and Ontario first, it is a bit of a contradictory if your focusing on a large area, and dont expect to run a residential program. Thus, this meaning that a good player from windsor wouldnt be able to play unless he moved himself. So basically TFC academy is focusing on the GTA. With that said how can you build a great academy with only players from the GTA. You can maybe build a good one, but a great one i dont think so.

In closing, to go with what else is said: if ontario has 400k registered players cut that number into half counting only the GTA players. Cut that number again not including the Houseleague players.

And i dont know what number you end with, to say theres a significant talent pool to choose from

VPjr
10-07-2009, 01:22 AM
Right now, the TFC Academy is more about fulfilling MLS obligations than it is about player development.

When you bring player in at 15-17, you are not developing, per se.

They ARE giving a lucky few the opportunity to train very regularly, under the watch of decent trainers and occasionally get the chance to train with the big team. Nothing wrong with that but that isn't player development.

if they want the academy to be about long term development that will truly have an impact on the senior roster over the long run, they need to start the academy at U13 minimum. Bring boys in at 11 and 12. Give them 3 day a week training (minimum). Give them some good competition (play in the SAAC league, play friendlies, enter the odd tournament, etc...). Follow international standards. Explain to these boys from EARLY on that TFC Academy is not NCAA prep. it is a prep school for pro soccer. Put the boys on pro contracts as early as possible. Establish relationships with clubs at various levels (europe, USL, CSL, south america, etc...) so that the best players can be loaned out early to play at a higher level to test their ability.

Most Important...Hire COACHES (not trainers) who have real professional (SENIOR MEN's) experience to run the academy. You can't expect coaches who've never coached a professional or even semi pro men's senior team to know how to develop players for the pro game. Its impossible. Those true pro coaches can mentor the inexperienced trainers. Canada is full of trainers (guys who are great at running drills) but not many actual coaches (some people might not appreciate that there is a difference)

denime
10-07-2009, 06:29 AM
:facepalm:

thats the shit they want you to buy into.
that its not neccessary.

If TFC wants to concentrate on GTA and Ontario first, it is a bit of a contradictory if your focusing on a large area, and dont expect to run a residential program. Thus, this meaning that a good player from windsor wouldnt be able to play unless he moved himself. So basically TFC academy is focusing on the GTA. With that said how can you build a great academy with only players from the GTA. You can maybe build a good one, but a great one i dont think so.

In closing, to go with what else is said: if ontario has 400k registered players cut that number into half counting only the GTA players. Cut that number again not including the Houseleague players.

And i dont know what number you end with, to say theres a significant talent pool to choose from


:rolleyes:
TFC Academies have already kids from Ottawa,St.Catharines,Niagara Falls and they hope soon from Thunder Bay.

CoachGT
10-07-2009, 07:21 AM
If you don't have a residential program, you set up kids in billet homes. TFC already does this. It is a minor difference, but is a lot less expensive than setting up a formal residential program.

And VPjr is right - if you want true development, younger kids have to start in the academy (as was mentioned by Stuart Neely in the coaches workshop this past weekend at BMO), his comments were as young as 6, with top quality coaches.

[NBF]
10-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Im on the VP Jr. bandwagon, i agree also. I hope that the coaching staff also gets an upgrade to complement players with high value like Vitti and DeGuzman.

Beach_Red
10-07-2009, 11:16 AM
Right now, the TFC Academy is more about fulfilling MLS obligations than it is about player development.

When you bring player in at 15-17, you are not developing, per se.

They ARE giving a lucky few the opportunity to train very regularly, under the watch of decent trainers and occasionally get the chance to train with the big team. Nothing wrong with that but that isn't player development.

if they want the academy to be about long term development that will truly have an impact on the senior roster over the long run, they need to start the academy at U13 minimum. Bring boys in at 11 and 12. Give them 3 day a week training (minimum). Give them some good competition (play in the SAAC league, play friendlies, enter the odd tournament, etc...). Follow international standards. Explain to these boys from EARLY on that TFC Academy is not NCAA prep. it is a prep school for pro soccer. Put the boys on pro contracts as early as possible. Establish relationships with clubs at various levels (europe, USL, CSL, south america, etc...) so that the best players can be loaned out early to play at a higher level to test their ability.

Most Important...Hire COACHES (not trainers) who have real professional (SENIOR MEN's) experience to run the academy. You can't expect coaches who've never coached a professional or even semi pro men's senior team to know how to develop players for the pro game. Its impossible. Those true pro coaches can mentor the inexperienced trainers. Canada is full of trainers (guys who are great at running drills) but not many actual coaches (some people might not appreciate that there is a difference)


That may be a very tough sell in North America where parents understand the incredibly high odds against becoming a professional athlete and would prefer that their kids get ready to go to college. And NCAA is such a big part of the culture in the USA.

Could you imagine "prepping" kids from age 11 for something other than pro sports, for some other career that rarely goes past age 30?

Candu_88
10-07-2009, 12:36 PM
VPjr is on the right track but U13 is still too old. The golden years of youth development are 10-12. But power, speed, agility is where you can enhance their final potential (but still based on genetics) at 10-12. Technical skills like dribbling and first touches need to already be ingrained. TFC academy needs to start working with U8 youth players or younger to truly maximize final potential.

This discussion came up several times at the coaching clinic at BMO last Saturday.

denime
10-07-2009, 12:42 PM
VPjr is on the right track but U13 is still too old. The golden years of youth development are 10-12. But power, speed, agility is where you can enhance their final potential (but still based on genetics) at 10-12. Technical skills like dribbling and first touches need to already be ingrained. TFC academy needs to start working with U8 youth players or younger to truly maximize final potential.

This discussion came up several times at the coaching clinic at BMO last Saturday.


True and they said that TFC will start youth development from U6 but that will take some time it can not happen overnight.
Next step is U14 and Youth Development program already starter this summer from U7-U12.(BTW,This one is not free as academy programs).

Question is how you recognize a"future star "at the age of 6?