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Steve
09-28-2009, 10:56 AM
So, is this board ready to have a realistic discussion on this player yet? I mean, have the "OMG Frei is the best keeper in the world, he's going to go start for Manchester United next year!" died down?

Don't get me wrong, I like Frei as a player, but I think we made a big mistake in 1) dropping Sutton, and 2) Only playing Frei this year. I'll get into that more later, but let's break down his game.

1) Shot stopping. This is quite obviously his best attribute. He has great reflexes, a long body, and can jump like the dickens. Essentially, he can stop shots with the best (of the MLS). This is the reason he has won so many saves of the week.

2) Distribution. Better than Sutton was (who isn't) but he still isn't anything terribly special. I would put his distribution at about average, which certainly isn't bad for a rookie, but it isn't where he shines.

3) Communication. I'm really not sure about this one, since I'm not on the pitch and can't hear him, but there have been too many confusing situations with CBs to think he is good at it. I have to think he is fairly week at organising his back line. Either that or every defender we have just doesn't listen. It's possible, but as a rookie, I think his communication is lacking.

4) Controlling his 18. Terrible. I mean, absolutely, completely, horrible. One of the worst in the MLS I would wager. He doesn't come out for crosses at all to control the 18. Hell, he struggles to control his 6 yard box (as evidenced by the last few games). The worst part about this is, he's not getting better. I had hoped this would improve throughout the season, but it really hasn't. Frankly, at 6'3 he is getting embaressed by defenders shorter than him (who, you know, can't use their hands). There is no excuse.

So, when you take all of that into consideration, I think we made a huge mistake in releasing Sutton. See, Sutton's strength was crosses. I remember watching games where a cross would come in, and as soon as it was kicked I was confident it would be collected by sutton (despite it landing considerably outside the 6 yard box). He reacted instantly and confidently, and almost always came away with the ball in his hands. Sure, he had tons of other issues, but that wasn't one of them.

The biggest problem with releasing him as teams have obviously started figuring Frei out. It's actually rather easy. "Put the ball in the air into the box, TFC has no dominant CB and Frei will never come out for it. Either we get a head on it, or it will just bounce around and hopefully we get a bit of good luck". Done. At least if we had Sutton, we could throw him in sometimes and throw that theory off (forcing teams to play down the middle more, where they have to deal with JDG).

The second issue is in attitude. If Frei was backup keeper, he would have the "I need to work my ass off to become first keeper" attitude. He would learn from Sutton (since Frei's weakness is Sutton's strength) and be motivated. As it is, Frei is our first keeper, and really has no competition. He has never been benched. Of course he's getting complacent, and that shows in his lack of improvement at all.

trane
09-28-2009, 11:01 AM
I do not think it was a mistake dropping Sutton. But Frei has too learn and improve. As was discussed on another thread, while I think that the second goal was firstly on Garcia, and Wynne contributed by giving Mapp all the time and space to cross, the cross was relatively high and slow, Frei seemed to have time to come out and punch it away.

Darlofletch
09-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Do we currently have a goalie coach? Even if we do, can mlse splash the cash to get a really good one. We're not allowed to spend more money on players, so let's invest in coaches or scouts. Obviously a head coach is needed as the first priority but a goalie coach would be my next choice.

i really think frei has potential, but seems to be going backwards as far as crosses go, Conor casey's goal at BMO was awful play by Frei, Mcbride's goal wasn't as bad, but he still should have come for it. He just seems to have no confidence, and leaving balls for garcia is a recipe for disaster against people like Casey or mcbride.

joel
09-28-2009, 11:21 AM
Do we currently have a goalie coach? Even if we do, can mlse splash the cash to get a really good one. We're not allowed to spend more money on players, so let's invest in coaches or scouts. Obviously a head coach is needed as the first priority but a goalie coach would be my next choice.


http://web.mlsnet.com/players/bio.jsp?team=t280&player=toshack_mike




Ontario native Michael Toshack joined Toronto FC as Goalkeeper Coach on January 8th 2009. Toshack moved back to his native Canada after three seasons in Major League Soccer with the Houston Dynamo.
Before joining MLS, Toshack was hired as the Director of Goalkeeping at United Soccer League First Division side, the Vancouver Whitecaps in February of 2005. He was responsible for the development and training of all goalkeepers in the club, from youth teams to professional. He served as an assistant coach when Vancouver won the USL First Division championship in 2006. Toshack also spent time with the Montreal Impact, serving as an assistant coach in 2002-2003, where he worked with current Toronto FC goalkeeper, Greg Sutton. In 2003, Sutton was named the A-League goalkeeper of the year.
Toshack worked with one of the top youth clubs and PDL franchises in the country when he served as goalkeeping director for Mass Premier Soccer in Boston. There he was responsible for the development of all goalkeepers for the 28 Super Y-league teams as well as the Cape Cod Crusaders of the PDL. From 1994 to 2003, Toshack was the assistant coach at St. Lawrence University in Canton, N.Y and was a part of the team that won the NCAA Division III championship in 1999. During his time in New York, Toshack also kept busy by serving as goalkeeping coach with the Canadian U-20 national team from 1998-2001. That position took him around the world including a stop in Argentina where the 2001 FIFA World Youth Championships took place.

torontocelt
09-28-2009, 12:08 PM
These are mainly concentrating on the negative aspect of Frei's game, I think it is worth noting that he has saved us from being scored against a ridiculous amounts of time. He is in his first season and it would be difficult to argue that he has not been a great success so far. He will be on most likely a lot less than Sutton ever was although I am guessing that. Sutton had two seasons to cement his place down, he had his chance and for me Frei has been a more than able replacement. Considering the defence Frei has in front of him plus the fact that he is a rookie then you would have to say that he is doing well. He has a lot to improve in his game but he is young and he has lot of time on his side.

Oldtimer
09-28-2009, 12:17 PM
We could have lost the last game with Sutton, as well. He would have stopped the cross, then booted the ball straight to a Chicago midfielder. :rolleyes:

shwade
09-28-2009, 12:44 PM
Frei > Sutton for sure. But the thing with Frei is he never seems to think it's his own fault, even though with the shitty defence it rarely is..but still.

Candu_88
09-28-2009, 12:56 PM
Decision making is the toughest part of being a keeper and coaching a young keeper. There is a reason that keepers don't peak until late 20's or 30's. Frei is a superb shot stopper and is very quick to come and deal with through balls on the ground. Distribution is very good too.

His weaknesses are when to time a challenge 1v1 break away and even more so when to come for crosses especially those in the 6 yard box. Edwards has come along way dealing with those the few times we have seen him this year and those used to be his weaknesses too.

This will be solved with more training and experience over the next few years. He definitely speaks frequently to the defenders but to be honest the defenders and their skills and weaknesses are very different and the line-up has changed a lot. Don't be so surprised that Frei is struggling with his command of and decision making around all of those different defenders.

Can you predict Garcia? I sure can't:smilielol5:

billyfly
09-28-2009, 12:58 PM
So, is this board ready to have a realistic discussion on this player yet? I mean, have the "OMG Frei is the best keeper in the world, he's going to go start for Manchester United next year!" died down?

Don't get me wrong, I like Frei as a player, but I think we made a big mistake in 1) dropping Sutton, and 2) Only playing Frei this year. I'll get into that more later, but let's break down his game.

1) Shot stopping. This is quite obviously his best attribute. He has great reflexes, a long body, and can jump like the dickens. Essentially, he can stop shots with the best (of the MLS). This is the reason he has won so many saves of the week.

2) Distribution. Better than Sutton was (who isn't) but he still isn't anything terribly special. I would put his distribution at about average, which certainly isn't bad for a rookie, but it isn't where he shines.

3) Communication. I'm really not sure about this one, since I'm not on the pitch and can't hear him, but there have been too many confusing situations with CBs to think he is good at it. I have to think he is fairly week at organising his back line. Either that or every defender we have just doesn't listen. It's possible, but as a rookie, I think his communication is lacking.

4) Controlling his 18. Terrible. I mean, absolutely, completely, horrible. One of the worst in the MLS I would wager. He doesn't come out for crosses at all to control the 18. Hell, he struggles to control his 6 yard box (as evidenced by the last few games). The worst part about this is, he's not getting better. I had hoped this would improve throughout the season, but it really hasn't. Frankly, at 6'3 he is getting embaressed by defenders shorter than him (who, you know, can't use their hands). There is no excuse.

So, when you take all of that into consideration, I think we made a huge mistake in releasing Sutton. See, Sutton's strength was crosses. I remember watching games where a cross would come in, and as soon as it was kicked I was confident it would be collected by sutton (despite it landing considerably outside the 6 yard box). He reacted instantly and confidently, and almost always came away with the ball in his hands. Sure, he had tons of other issues, but that wasn't one of them.

The biggest problem with releasing him as teams have obviously started figuring Frei out. It's actually rather easy. "Put the ball in the air into the box, TFC has no dominant CB and Frei will never come out for it. Either we get a head on it, or it will just bounce around and hopefully we get a bit of good luck". Done. At least if we had Sutton, we could throw him in sometimes and throw that theory off (forcing teams to play down the middle more, where they have to deal with JDG).

The second issue is in attitude. If Frei was backup keeper, he would have the "I need to work my ass off to become first keeper" attitude. He would learn from Sutton (since Frei's weakness is Sutton's strength) and be motivated. As it is, Frei is our first keeper, and really has no competition. He has never been benched. Of course he's getting complacent, and that shows in his lack of improvement at all.

Look Mr. Edwards I know you've been on the bench almost all season and I understand that but.....

Pookie
09-28-2009, 01:04 PM
Keeping Sutton would have been a $160k expense against the cap and quite honestly, Frei is younger and despite the (perceived) weaknesses, at least as good as Sutton was.

I remember writing cautionary posts about Frei when people we talking about $10M transfer fees (yes, they were) after just 7 games into his professional career. I'm all for a realistic discussion on his skills and development areas but what measuring stick are you going to use?

This is the MLS after all. A developmental league. Is he to be measured against his fellow MLS keepers? Or are we going to use top keepers in top leagues as the measuring stick.

If MLS is the measure, no keeper has stopped more shots than Frei this year (98). Yet, his save percentage is not in the top 10. That obviously suggests he gets a ton of shots which speaks more to our defending than it does Frei's abilities.

If people are going to use Peter Schmicheal as the barometer, then there really is no point and Frei has a long way to go.

trane
09-28-2009, 01:06 PM
We could have lost the last game with Sutton, as well. He would have stopped the cross, then booted the ball straight to a Chicago midfielder. :rolleyes:

I agree. My response is mostly about that Frei will be great, but still has some way to go. But he could be and probably should be rookie of the year.

Blizzard
09-28-2009, 01:10 PM
Keeping Sutton would have been a $160k expense against the cap and quite honestly, Frei is younger and despite the (perceived) weaknesses, at least as good as Sutton was.

I remember writing cautionary posts about Frei when people we talking about $10M transfer fees (yes, they were) after just 7 games into his professional career. I'm all for a realistic discussion on his skills and development areas but what measuring stick are you going to use?

This is the MLS after all. A developmental league. Is he to be measured against his fellow MLS keepers? Or are we going to use top keepers in top leagues as the measuring stick.

If MLS is the measure, no keeper has stopped more shots than Frei this year (98). Yet, his save percentage is not in the top 10. That obviously suggests he gets a ton of shots which speaks more to our defending than it does Frei's abilities.

If people are going to use Peter Schmicheal as the barometer, then there really is no point and Frei has a long way to go.

Frei has a long way to go whether you're using Schmeichel or Onstad as measuring sticks.

Frei has all the potential in the world and yes he is a rookie but if someone were to suggest he has, perhaps, regressed a bit as the season has gone on, I don't know if I could disagree with that person.

sulfur
09-28-2009, 02:23 PM
Frei has all the potential in the world and yes he is a rookie but if someone were to suggest he has, perhaps, regressed a bit as the season has gone on, I don't know if I could disagree with that person.
To be honest, that can even be chalked up a bit to being a rookie and being used to an NCAA season rather than the grueling length of the MLS season (and other professional seasons).

Which would have been finished about 10 games ago.

Blizzard
09-28-2009, 02:25 PM
To be honest, that can even be chalked up a bit to being a rookie and being used to an NCAA season rather than the grueling length of the MLS season (and other professional seasons).

Which would have been finished about 10 games ago.

Too true. Fatigue, both mental and physical might definitely be part of the problem.

Shaughno
09-28-2009, 02:29 PM
Keepers get tired? How? It's not like they do anything......


:rofl: Ok, back to Off Topic I go...

Hitcho
09-28-2009, 02:43 PM
Some fair points in the OP, but to balance the argument a little:

1. It's MLS. If he was able to cross off all the downsides you listed in his first ever season as a pro, he'd already be in a top European league by now. We have to make do with the best we can get in the MLS universe, Frei fits that bill for me, especially if he improves.

2. He's a rookie. See above comment re Europe. You can't expect him to iron out all his weaknesses in less than one full season. Of course you look for improvement, that's a given, but give him more time.

3. I agree that competition is key and ideally we'd have someone to push Frei, but the salary cap is God in this league and the money to have a keeper pushing Frei is far, far better spent on improving the playing squad. Decent coaches and management should be able to push a rookie and keep him on his toes. You don't need to take up a decent player salary just for that.

4. Yes, Sutton was good at crosses. But goalkeepers aren't like pick n mix - you can't just take the best bits from each one and put them together into one nice package. Only one can play, and I wouldn't be comfortable playing a lesser keeper in games where we thought there might be a lot of crosses coming in. If they could work out Frei then they'll equally work out Sutton and say "ok, go for crosses with Frei and if Sutton plays try and nail him this way instead". Playing Sutton now and again wouldn't be the ace in the pack the OP suggested it might be, although I agree there's some benefit in mixing it up a little, but see the salary cap point on this issue.

5. I for one don't think Frei is God and nor will he ever play for Man Utd at any level. However, I do think he is a very talented keeper for his age and within the confines of MLS. He will improve, I am sure of that, and he should grow into a really solid keeper for us for (hopefully) years and years to come. Part of that is allowing him to grow into the role. He'll need a few years to work out the weak points of his game, but for now he's ass-kickingly good for someone who, and I cannot stress this enough, just came out of a US university through the MLS draft system (which is considered to be a joke in most of the rest of the world). He deserves support, praise and encouragement because he's been a top, top rookie for us this season. I love him for that. God, no. Praiseworthy and to be given time, support and patience, definitely.

So yeah, it'd be nice to push him and see him really strive for improvement with obvious match day results. But to jump from that statement to saying it was wrong to drop Sutton and that Frei is stalling already is just insane in my book (if that's what the OP is saying, which is how I read it). The salary cap puts the first point to bed and the fact he's a rookie and has had less than a season of pro playing time puts the second point to bed.

Steve
09-28-2009, 03:06 PM
So yeah, it'd be nice to push him and see him really strive for improvement with obvious match day results. But to jump from that statement to saying it was wrong to drop Sutton and that Frei is stalling already is just insane in my book (if that's what the OP is saying, which is how I read it). The salary cap puts the first point to bed and the fact he's a rookie and has had less than a season of pro playing time puts the second point to bed.

Yes, I understand the salary cap made it impractical to keep Sutton. I just really wish it hadn't. As I said, Sutton was good at a lot of things, and I wish we had had the room under the cap to keep him around to help Frei grow more.

My main point wasn't to say "Sutton was a better keeper, he should have been playing over Frei" it was that "Frei is a good rookie, but needs to step up his game, and he has a very specific weakness that it doesn't seem like he's working on at all". The reason I brought up Sutton was because if Sutton was around, I feel like Frei might have been more motivated to learn and push himself. Frankly, I just didn't like that Frei has essentially been given a pass even when he makes terrible mistakes. Let's call him out on his mistakes so he learns from them and doesn't think he's "all that". Remember how good Edu was his first season? Remember how, in his second season he got it into his head that he was "better than" this league and then just sucked it up? Yeah, that is what I don't want to happen to Frei. I want him to be pushed to be better, not think he's already good enough.

ensco
09-28-2009, 03:42 PM
Frei has been terrific.

He's been exposed by the defenders and midfielders about 7 times a game. He should have come out for the tying goal Saturday, sure, just like DeRo should've scored that open net chance in Seattle.

His command of the box is not near as bad as it's being described. Opposing players are getting unmarked chances over and over again. All kinds of ways, not just on crosses.

I think he'd be an all-star with an average set of defenders in front of him.

Blazer
09-28-2009, 05:30 PM
Without reading this utterly painful diatribe, the answer to each of the points lay in this overly simplified yet entirely practical rationalization – he’s a rookie (for crying out loud) who will only get better over the next 10 years wherever he plays. It’s a safe assumption that he’s not getting any worse.

Sorry – but these absurd revelations of Frei’s game are unwarranted and unfounded.

And with that, the thread may be closed. He’s ours, he’s great, and we don’t need to start a hate thread against a player whom is a major part of this team moving forward.

trane
09-28-2009, 06:21 PM
^ What hate? Maybe I missed it, but this is simple a dicussion about his overall game. Why does someone have to be a god or a goat? He is a great rookie, and his game has to improve. What is wrong with such discussion.

Juanito
09-28-2009, 09:23 PM
Keepers get tired? How? It's not like they do anything......


:rofl: Ok, back to Off Topic I go...

NEVER ask me to play keeper on your team again .... BANISHED!!! :facepalm:

Juanito
09-28-2009, 09:31 PM
Frei will improve. He will also improve when he isn't getting shell-shocked and he has a back four he can trust. I can't be 100% sure, but it looks like he doesn't trust his defenders and hesitates to react. He will make mistakes. I'll take mistakes from him though because I know he will blossom into a top keeper in this league (and beyond).

I would have liked for Sutton to stay, but it was obvious (to me at least) that Frei is the future and Sutton isn't. He was paid too much to sit on the bench. With that being said, if we kept him, then we may have not had the cap room to sign Gerba or JDG and we would be having a different conversation right now.

I guess you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Blizzard
09-28-2009, 10:40 PM
Frei will improve. He will also improve when he isn't getting shell-shocked and he has a back four he can trust. I can't be 100% sure, but it looks like he doesn't trust his defenders and hesitates to react. He will make mistakes. I'll take mistakes from him though because I know he will blossom into a top keeper in this league (and beyond).


I think the lack of trust his two way. When he didn't come out for the ball that Conor Casey put away, he really did leave his defenders out to dry. Could they have done better? Absolutely but a more experienced keeper would come out for that ball and either punch it our or gather it in. Same with the McBride goal.

It works both ways and right now, nobody at the back seems to trust anybody else.

Yup, mistakes will happen and he'll get better learning from these errors.

Cashcleaner
09-28-2009, 10:51 PM
Keeping Sutton would have been a $160k expense against the cap and quite honestly, Frei is younger and despite the (perceived) weaknesses, at least as good as Sutton was.

I remember writing cautionary posts about Frei when people we talking about $10M transfer fees (yes, they were) after just 7 games into his professional career. I'm all for a realistic discussion on his skills and development areas but what measuring stick are you going to use?

This is the MLS after all. A developmental league. Is he to be measured against his fellow MLS keepers? Or are we going to use top keepers in top leagues as the measuring stick.

If MLS is the measure, no keeper has stopped more shots than Frei this year (98). Yet, his save percentage is not in the top 10. That obviously suggests he gets a ton of shots which speaks more to our defending than it does Frei's abilities.

If people are going to use Peter Schmicheal as the barometer, then there really is no point and Frei has a long way to go.

Best post in this thread. Frei has more than proven his qualities over the season. Would else can we demand from him? This is his rookie year, after all. I'm sure most people would agree that if it weren't for an inconsistent defence we'd be assured a playoff spot by now despite our offensive record.

Shakes McQueen
09-28-2009, 11:12 PM
Controlling his area, and communication are his two big issues. And both will get better, as he gets more experience. Those are learned abilities, not instinctive ones, and he can improve them.

I still think we need a top-notch veteran defender who can help Frei out by confidently commanding our back four. And by extension, that would help make Frei's job easier.

Both goals last weekend could have been easily avoided with a more confident defense - not even necessarily a more talented one.

I'm glad Frei still has some warts in his game - it ensures he will be with us for a while. The positives and upsides with Frei, far outweight the negatives.

- Scott

greatwhitenorf
09-28-2009, 11:55 PM
He didn't need "average defenders" to stave off two ridiculous goals in two recent games - Conor Casey's headed goal for Colorado at BMO Field and Brian McBride's headed equalizer in Chicago.

He just needed good judgement and the courage to act decisively and came up sadly lacking in both departments.

Both goals were entirely preventable and he failed to act. Sure, he's made some good reflex saves, but when asked to do some thinking before acting, he's not showing us any reliability.

Jury out on this fellow.

Hitcho
09-29-2009, 10:06 AM
I just don't see how anyone can say jury out on frei based on this season.

IN CONTEXT - he's in his rookie year in a poor league (internationally) with a weak defence in front of him, and bearing that in mind he's been AMAZING.

OUT OF CONTEXT - he's not the best keeper in the league having had years to work out any flaws in his game, nor is he going to Real Madrid next season to replace Casillas, but how this statement is useful in any sense I have no idea.

Bottom line (for me) is that bearing in mind his cricumstances Frei has been icnredible for us and I am really excited to see him develop as a keeper with TFC. He does need to develop, of couyrse he does, but it will be great to see him hone his game and watch him end up as a really good keeper in MLS in the red of TFC.

trane
09-29-2009, 10:11 AM
^ Examining your teams strenghs and flows is a necessary process in improving team performance. You idenitfy the strenghs to capitalize on them, and identidy the weakness to improve in the needed areas. You do that as a team, for different positiosn ( Forwards/mids/back/gola) and you do that for the individual players. This is not negative, it is just healthy discussion, a constructive critique. ( clearly not in the hope of being hear, but in the hope that those who count see it in a similar manner)