Mo Ain't Going Anywhere

[maninb]

I have to chuckle at the people who still rant 'MO MUSY GO'!!!! He just signed a lucrative 3 year EXTENSION for Christ sake...So please save your breath...he's here for the foreseeable future...whether he deserves it or not...

[Beach_Red]

^ Are you absolutely sure?

I had heard this, too, but now I hear something else....

[Carter]

Do you have a link to the official announcement of Mo's EXTENSION?

[dclaro]

define lucrative

[wzhxvy]

^ Are you absolutely sure?

I had heard this, too, but now I hear something else....

What are you hearing ?

[Beach_Red]

What are you hearing ?

Just that it isn't a done deal yet.

[rocker]

what's a "MUSY"?

[ilikemusic]

Well this sounds like a reliable post.

Mo definitely musy go.

[backbeat]

That's what the wife says - 'Backbeat MUSY...GO!!'

me musy, she fussy....

[Kaz]

being as people seems to have pulled apart everything else that was said..
Are you sure you chuckled? Snorts can be mistaken as chuckles some times
and are you sure religion has anything to do with it?

[InTheCrowd]

Mo's staying and deservedly so.

[James Oliphant]

Well this sounds like a reliable post.

Mo definitely musy go.

Yes. We deserve butter.

[Shway]

Mo's staying and deservedly so.
100% AGREED

Cummins needs to go back to his original position,
and a new head coach

[SoccMan]

This team will not improve until Mo is gone end of story until that happens seasons like we have experienced these last three seasons will be the norm.

[CretanBull]

100% AGREED

Cummins needs to go back to his original position,
and a new head coach

You think a new coach will be able to do something with a team of CMs, a collection of paper-thin defenders and strikers who can't score?

Let's fire the coach who was given crap to work with, and keep the GM who keeps bringing in CMs...makes sense to me :rolleyes:

[Shakes McQueen]

You think a new coach will be able to do something with a team of CMs, a collection of paper-thin defenders and strikers who can't score?

Let's fire the coach who was given crap to work with, and keep the GM who keeps bringing in CMs...makes sense to me :rolleyes:

Half of the games we play, our strikers barely get the chance to even touch the ball. Gerba and OBW have looked pretty good, when they actually get some good passes in the area.

I agree with the defense though. He needs to stop waffling, and fix it. We need a new RB, LB, and at least one CB.

- Scott

[Marco2K]

the coach has to go. He is not a coach. maybe more like a H2o Technicain

[InTheCrowd]

You think a new coach will be able to do something with a team of CMs, a collection of paper-thin defenders and strikers who can't score?

Let's fire the coach who was given crap to work with, and keep the GM who keeps bringing in CMs...makes sense to me :rolleyes:

I agree with you about our defenders, however Mo has been trying to bring in better players in the back. Yes they have failed but I believe he will keep trying. Mo is doing a good job, I'm not going to blame him because some players don't play well.

[CretanBull]

Half of the games we play, our strikers barely get the chance to even touch the ball. Gerba and OBW have looked pretty good, when they actually get some good passes in the area.


Do you think that a new coach can teach something to vets like JDG, DeRo and Guevara that they don't know now that will allow them to find the strikers that they can't seem to find? Do you think a new coach can find a way to play 4 or 5 CMs at the same time where none of them are out of position?

Our problem isn't the talent on the team or the coaching. Our problem is that our team was put together with no thought on how the individual players will form a team. Every midfielder on the team's natural position is in the center of the pitch and only 2 of them can play there at any given time. Our talented midfield can't find the strikers because in any given game 2 or 3 of them are playing out of position. Every team in the MLS knows that we have absolutely no wing players so they can more easily shut down our plays through the middle. That's not something that a new coach can fix.

As for OBW and Gerba....I still don't have a good read on OBW. He's looked like a rookie (which is expected), at times he looks good and at other times he's looked lost. Gerba....I realize that service has been an issue, but he's quickly become a Chad Barrett without the effort.

If we had real wingers - guys who could stretch defenses and cross a ball (remember Rickets?) - we'd get a lot more out of our strikers.

[CretanBull]

I agree with you about our defenders, however Mo has been trying to bring in better players in the back. Yes they have failed but I believe he will keep trying. Mo is doing a good job, I'm not going to blame him because some players don't play well.

How has Mo done a good job? He's over-paid a group of strikers who can't score, brought in defenders who struggle and midfielders who aren't able to play in their natural positions.

His biggest successes are Dero and JDG. DeRo came here because he wanted to come home and requested a trade to TFC. JDG came here because we were willing to pay him 5 times more than any other team in the world. Although Mo obviously played a part in both moves, it's hard to give him credit for DeRo and JDG wanting to play in front of family and friends.

[Shakes McQueen]

Do you think that a new coach can teach something to vets like JDG, DeRo and Guevara that they don't know now that will allow them to find the strikers that they can't seem to find? Do you think a new coach can find a way to play 4 or 5 CMs at the same time where none of them are out of position?

Our problem isn't the talent on the team or the coaching. Our problem is that our team was put together with no thought on how the individual players will form a team. Every midfielder on the team's natural position is in the center of the pitch and only 2 of them can play there at any given time. Our talented midfield can't find the strikers because in any given game 2 or 3 of them are playing out of position. Every team in the MLS knows that we have absolutely no wing players so they can more easily shut down our plays through the middle. That's not something that a new coach can fix.

As for OBW and Gerba....I still don't have a good read on OBW. He's looked like a rookie (which is expected), at times he looks good and at other times he's looked lost. Gerba....I realize that service has been an issue, but he's quickly become a Chad Barrett without the effort.

If we had real wingers - guys who could stretch defenses and cross a ball (remember Rickets?) - we'd get a lot more out of our strikers.

I'm not suggesting a better coach could make veteran players like JDG, DeRo, and Guevara better players, but I am suggesting that a better coach could use those players in more suitable formations, and have them execute more appropriate tactics. That's what a coach does. Ours can't even make proper substitutions.

Yes, we need better wing players - more specifically, I think we need wing-backs.

I don't get why the debate on Mo has to be either "he's doing a good job" or "he has to go", with no grey area in between. I think Mo has done a decent job, but there are a lot of holes he needs to fill, and fill soon.

- Scott

[CretanBull]

I'm not suggesting a better coach could make veteran players like JDG, DeRo, and Guevara better players, but I am suggesting that a better coach could use those players in more suitable formations, and have them execute more appropriate tactics. That's what a coach does. Ours can't even make proper substitutions.


A new coach can't create width, and that's the root of our problems. There isn't a formation in the world that can accomodate 5 CMs. A new coach can't work on tactics and execution any better than Cummins can because every team in the MLS (and the USL) knows that if they block the middle of the pitch it kills the service to the stikers because we have no wing options. When that happens - and it happens often - that's not Cummins getting out-coached, that's him forced to use what he has.

At times Cummins has (or hasn't made) some substitutions that have confused me, but again what does he have to work with? If you assume that he's started his best XI, pulling off one CM to put on another doesn't make much sense. In his view (for which he has to be accountable for) whatever he gains in energy he'll have lost by putting on a player which he's already deemed inferior to the one he started.

Think to yourself, how many times have you been screaming for player "x" to come off and when he is pulled off player "y" comes in and he's equally useless/invisible? I can remember games where I've wondered if the subs even got a single touch.



Yes, we need better wing players - more specifically, I think we need wing-backs.


I think with our D, wing backs would just leave us more exposed more often. Next season I'd like to see Nana play CB with a healthy Serioux or a MLS experienced CB in the middle with two traditional full backs playing on either side of them...its time for Wynne to go and to see Jimmy B move to the bench and become a utlity player for us.



I don't get why the debate on Mo has to be either "he's doing a good job" or "he has to go", with no grey area in between. I think Mo has done a decent job, but there are a lot of holes he needs to fill, and fill soon.


The 'grey area' has been this whole season. In season 1 he gets a pass, it's an expansion team and finding building blocks is more important than winning. In season 2 Mo did a good job, he improved the team, he added a few more building blocks but more importantly he did an amazing job of collecting draft picks and allocation money that set us up perfectly for season 3. His hard and smart work in season 2 gave us a unique opportunity this season, we were able to go $1 million over the cap (almost 50% over the salary cap!) and they gave us a huge advantage over the rest of the league.

I think that it's fair to say that the oportunity that he created in season 2 for this year has been poorly managed and totally squandered. He's made costly mistakes in terms of player evaluations and his misspent the allocation money that gave us such a huge advantage going into this season. Everything that he did so well in season 2 was flushed down the toilet by how he spent his money this season. We have the most number of players in the league who make $300k or more on our team and it doesn't look like we're even going to make the play-offs (and if we do, I'd expect to get bounced in the first round). Vitti was a mistake, Garica was a mistake, Barrett at his wage is a mistake, Gerba at his wage is a mistake etc. all of which forced Dichio to be cast aside when he should have been able to go out on top.

I'm not a "Mo Hater" but I do think that he - and everyone else for that matter - should be held accountable. I was quick to defend him last season and I'll still point to the success (in terms of management) that he had in setting us up for this season. At the same time though, I don't think that it's possible to objectively look at this season and come to the conclusion that Mo did a good job and if he didn't do a good job why would anyone want him here?

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm not a "Mo Hater" but I do think that he - and everyone else for that matter - should be held accountable. I was quick to defend him last season and I'll still point to the success (in terms of management) that he had in setting us up for this season. At the same time though, I don't think that it's possible to objectively look at this season and come to the conclusion that Mo did a good job and if he didn't do a good job why would anyone want him here?

There is a measure of trial and error in signing players, as a bottom-feeder club in a bottom-feeder league. Ricketts and Robert both looked like quality acquisitions, as far as MLS wingers go - and both performed amicably when they first got here. Then they fell off the radar.

If just one of those players had worked out well, suddenly our team is far more balanced.

Like I said, I'm all for holding Mo accountable for his mistakes, and I've said several times in the past that if he doesn't bring in a quality coach this off-season, or if he doesn't patch up our severe defensive holes, I support removing him before next season even begins. The same goes for wingers that can get the job done.

That said, I still don't think a lack of width is the sole, or even the biggest reason why our offense has sputtered when it counts. You can also create holes in a defense with off the ball movement, clever overlaps, and better passing. We don't have any of that (though it remains to be seen of JDG will help in this regard).

Lionel Messi's goal against Dynamo Kyiv yesterday, is a good example of how to engineer a scoring opportunity by creating a hole with some subtle, simple movement at the top of the box.

Barrett is pretty much the only guy on this team who is constantly moving around, and it's why he get's as many (squandered) chances as he does. I mean, how often do we even do passing triangles? Ever?

- Scott

[CretanBull]

Our midfield is made up solely of CMs and every game 2-3 of our midfielders are playing out of position. Guevara, JDG & De Ro are all at their best with the ball at their feet and the offense running through them. Cronin, Robinson, Sanyang are at their best in a holding role. That's 6 CMs on the team and only room for 2 or 3 (depending on formation) to play in their natural position.

The problems that arise from that aren't coaching problems, the problem is the make-up of the team. The things that you point to - like crappy off the ball movement - isn't a result of poor coaching, it's because so many players are playing out of position. Guevara's off the ball instincts are that of a CM, DeRo's off the ball instincts are that of a CM etc. A new coach isn't going to be able to make these guys forget the instincts that they've spent their whole lives developing and learn a new role & new instincts as wingers.

How can we be a team that moves forward with triangle passes without any width to our team? Honestly, look at how every opposing team defends us...the CBs play tight to the middle and the fullbacks favour the middle of the pitch. The closer we get to the 18 yard box the tighter to the middle they get. Our lack of width allows teams to have 5 players back blocking the middle of the pitch and they're able to do it with very little effort. How do you run triangle plays when there's 5 defenders no more than two yards away from each other who colapse as we approach (knowing that we can't go wide)?

I'm not nominating Cummins for coach of the year, but a new coach isn't the answer to our off the ball movement and won't be able to make us move forward with triangle passing...we don't have the team for either and a new coach can't help that.

[jloome]

Our midfield is made up solely of CMs and every game 2-3 of our midfielders are playing out of position. Guevara, JDG & De Ro are all at their best with the ball at their feet and the offense running through them. Cronin, Robinson, Sanyang are at their best in a holding role. That's 6 CMs on the team and only room for 2 or 3 (depending on formation) to play in their natural position.

The problems that arise from that aren't coaching problems, the problem is the make-up of the team. The things that you point to - like crappy off the ball movement - isn't a result of poor coaching, it's because so many players are playing out of position. Guevara's off the ball instincts are that of a CM, DeRo's off the ball instincts are that of a CM etc. A new coach isn't going to be able to make these guys forget the instincts that they've spent their whole lives developing and learn a new role & new instincts as wingers.

How can we be a team that moves forward with triangle passes without any width to our team? Honestly, look at how every opposing team defends us...the CBs play tight to the middle and the fullbacks favour the middle of the pitch. The closer we get to the 18 yard box the tighter to the middle they get. Our lack of width allows teams to have 5 players back blocking the middle of the pitch and they're able to do it with very little effort. How do you run triangle plays when there's 5 defenders no more than two yards away from each other who colapse as we approach (knowing that we can't go wide)?

I'm not nominating Cummins for coach of the year, but a new coach isn't the answer to our off the ball movement and won't be able to make us move forward with triangle passing...we don't have the team for either and a new coach can't help that.

Amen, and I''ll go a step further: if a player isn't smart enough to play supportively, to find space, to cover his zone or player etc;, then all the "tactics" and "coaching" in the world won't make up for it.

Soccer isn't gridball. You don't spend countless hours 'x'ing out offensive plays. There are only a few approaches in each direction based on formation, and much of the job of a head coach involves a) motivation and b) formation.

Cummins doesn't have the proper players to judge how well he scores on either point. Half our team is technically gifted, but plays as is unmotivated. The other half is motivated, but plays as if technically ungifted. On any given night, the only three players we can usually depend on to perform consistently are Nana, DeRo and Stefan Frei.

That's down to the players we sign, and that's down to Mo. Simple, end of story. We have some guys who have lots of heart (Serioux, Robbo, Wynne) but make poor decisions. We have some guys who have technical skills (Brennan, Vitti,) but show little heart and make poor decisions. Then we have some guys who are all heart (Barrett, Garcia) but are both technically deficient and make poor decisions.

People here tend to skew arguments about Mo's success based on a perception that we have a good team, we just don't have good coaching. That's just delusional homer-ism. Sorry. I love TFC and have never missed a minute, but we're a lousy team, most of the time. After three seasons, I suggest the GM should stop getting a free pass on that.

[Beach_Red]

Well, I don't know how much the roster changed, but when Steve Nicol took over in New England they went from a team that had missed the playoffs in three of the previous four years to a team that hasn't missed and has been in the championship game four times. Even if he had to work with Mo, don't you think he could do the same thing here?

[CretanBull]

Well, I don't know how much the roster changed, but when Steve Nicol took over in New England they went from a team that had missed the playoffs in three of the previous four years to a team that hasn't missed and has been in the championship game four times. Even if he had to work with Mo, don't you think he could do the same thing here?

Nicol is a good coach, probably a better one that Cummins....but we're not a team that suffering from bad coaching, we're a team that was poorly put together.

If Nicol came to Toronto and had to work with what we have now I think we'd be a marginally better team.

If we had a GM who built a team with tactics and positions in mind we'd have one of the best teams in the league.

Assume Dero and JDG are going to be the two main CMs in a 4 man midfield and one of Robinson, Sanyang or Cronin would be the main back-up or starter in a 5 man midfield. If we could trade Guevara (who I like alot) for an equally tallented winger and move one of the guys who we don't use as a back-up for another winger we'd be a much, much better team.

If we could stretch defenders with wide play and feed the strikers with crosses, then DeRo and JDG would have room in the middle to be creative and our strikers who get much better service. We'd see a lot more open space in the attacking zone because if defenders colapsed to the middle of the pitch as they do now, they wouldn't know where the attack was coming from (L or R or C)...right now, they know that they only have to close down the C.

I have no doubt that Cummins knows all of this, but he can't put it into action because he doesn't have the players to make it work.

[Beach_Red]

^ And he doesn't have the experience.

No matter who the GM and coach is next year, you know the roster won't be the same.

What I like best about sports is when a team can rise above itself and win. Or even just hold on like Dallas did tonight - and no team led by Jeff Cunningham is really that much better than TFC.

[jloome]

I don't disagree on that front Beach. He doesn't have the experience. He's a 37-year-old youth training specialist promoted to handling egotistical pro athletes.

I don't argue that he should stay, just that you can't judge him on the players Mo has given him. I don't care who you bring in -- and Nicol isn't an option, with two years left on his NE deal and no indication he'd go anywhere -- with these players, we will not win consistently.

That's not going to change until there's significant roster change. I think Mo, regardless of how slippery he may be, has been in football long enough to know that.

The question will be whether he's learned enough in the last four years that, combined with having a proper pitch now, he can attract those players now.

If he's smart, we already know he'll release Garcia and only keep vitti on a much lower salary. Jimmy B and Robbo may retire. There's no indication yet that Fellinga will stick.

So we're likely looking at four open roster spots. Coincidentally, our most pressing needs are for a centre half, a left back, and two wingers. I'm sure they're aware of all of this.

But I have no reason to be optimistic Mo can fix it.

[Beach_Red]

^ This is likey the last season for Guevara, too, so that opens another spot.

It's funny, I see the slipperyness as a positive. Dealing with sports agents all day - and what is a sports agent but a lawyer who was too slimy even for other other lawyers - it's a job for an alter boy. Was it Truman who said, "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."

As for Nicol, anything can happen. Probably won't be him, but somewhere out there is someone who could take this roster, add a few players and make it a lot better. Mo won't be fixing it by himself. There are a lot of positives for someone to want to coach in Toronto right now. Is it the best opportunity in MLS? Well, it's not New York, moving into a brand new stadium and... oh wait, come on, it's better than that here.

Of course, we don't know what kind of offer Mo has been allowed to make to coaches, how much $$$ and how many years. But now that the team has made it through it's "expansion years," now that they'll have grass it's time to sign someone for a longer term than one year.

I suppose we could get all pessimistic about this team, but why? We have the Leafs for that.

[felipe]

Are you talking about the 2010 Stanley Cup winning Leafs?